that doo vnfainedly professe that Religion that you hate doo vnfainedly looue you and pray for the opening of the eyes of your vnderstanding that you may see and feele and embrace your saluation in Christe and that being Englishmen or inhabiting within the English dominions you may know and acknowledge her Maiestie for your supreme Gouernor in all causes next and immediatly vnder Christe our onely vniuersall head Fare you well From my house at S. Gyles without Creplegate of London the. 6. of Ianuarie 1580. After the accoumpt of the Church of Englande and in the. 23. yeere of her Maiesties Reigne ⸪ Yours when you shall shew your selues to be true Christians and English men Robert Crovvley Clerk 7. September 1580. ¶ Sixe Reasons set downe to shew that it is no orderly way in cōtrouersies of faith to appeale to be tryed only by Scriptures as the absurde opinion of all the Sectaries is but the sentence definition of the Catholike Church by whome as by the Spowse of Christ alwayes inspired with the holy ghost the holy Scripture is to be iudged FIrst consider well these words of our Sauiour in sending vs to the Scriptures saying Searche the Scriptures for you thinke to haue eternall life in them And these are they that beare witnesse of me Marke well these wordes I say that the Scripture is but witnesse bearer to the trueth and not the Iudge to discerne of trueth for iudgement giuing belongeth not to the witnesse bearer although he be as a rule to leade and direct the Iudge in true iudgement But what if this witnesse should be currupted as no man will deny but it may yet this Iudge to whome the holy Ghost is promised will finde it and reforme it Vnderstād therfore my Reasons why of necessitie the Church must be Iudge of the Scriptures and take your Pen and confute them I pray you if you can 1. The first is because the written Text is mute and dumbe vttering nothing to vs from the Booke but only the wordes and not the sense wherein the lyfe as it were of the Scripture consisteth And what definitiue sentence can such a Iudge giue to ouer rule the conceyted minde of an opinatiue man which hath no euident meanes to pronounce any iudgement against him but onely to shewe him a dumbe signe in writing which a wrangler may conster styll to his owne vnderstanding against all the worlde 2 The second Reason is because the holy Scripture as S. Augustine sayth is very full of harde and déepe anysteries in so much that when Honoratus sayd to him as many vnlearned men say now a dayes that he vnderstood it well enough without helpe of any instructor Say you so sayth he you would not take vpon you to vnderstand such a Poet as Terence is well without a Maister and dare you rushe into the holy Scriptures which are so full of Diuine mysteries without a Maister and dare you rushe into the holy Scriptures which are so full of Diuine mysteries without a guide All Heresies sayth he come of nothing else Nisi dum scripturae bonae intelliguntur non bene But whyle the good Scriptures are not well vnderstoode Héerto also S. Peter in his second Epistle Cap. 3. beareth witnesse saying That many misunder stood S. Paule in many harde places peruersly to their owne perdition But then you will say the harde places may easely he vnderstoode by conference of other Scriptures Well admit a chyldish reason for a worde or two That because they might so be among the humble minded therfore they must néeds be so though men be neuer so peruerse Yet giue mée leaue to pose you then one Question farther to y e quick Howe is it possible to knowe by any conference of the Scriptures which is Canonicall Scripture and which is not certainely if any Infidell would deny the olde Testament as some Heretikes in time past haue done and I praye God there be not many Atheistes at this day in England which be farther gone yet then they Yea if such a one should deny all the newe Testament also we haue no sure Anckor holde against him but the Reuelation of God by tradition to his Church which is the pyllor and sure stay of trueth which S. Augustine well séeing thought he might be bolde to say with due reuerence to God and holie Scripture bothe I should not beleue the Gospell except the authoritie of y e Church did moue me thereunto meanyng that the tradition of the vniuersall Churche and the testimonie of all the people of God in whom the holie Ghoste dwelleth must iustly moue vs to credite that whiche their authoritie doth commaunde vs to giue credite vnto Therefore let any man beware of fliyng from the Churches Iudgement to the Scripture onely least the Scripture it self should vtterly bee denied as by some Atheistes in Englande as I heare saie is alreadie And then might suche Infidels laugh all Heretickes to scorne for robbyng them selues of their owne defence But now to returne to my purpose if conference of one Scripture with an other might giue light enough to all men How happeneth it that all Sects vsing that conference yet thei can neuer agrre in their opinions but diuers men and all vsing suche conference doe yet construe it diuersly The vttermoste shifte thei haue is this suche a weake one as it is that the Reader must giue hymself to prayer for the truthe to be reuealed vnto hym Wherein marke I praie you the iutollerable pride of arrogant Hypocrites that thei will first mistrust Gods reuelation of the truthe to his Vniaersall Churche for the whiche Christe himself hath prayed and promised to teache them all tr 〈…〉 moste presumptuously to come and 〈…〉 pt God to haue that truthe reuealed onely to them selues whiche beyng reuealed many hundreth yeares agone and defined in generall Counsell by all the holie Fathers where the holie Ghoste is alwaies present or at leaste by the holie Doctors in their writynges set doune yet thei will not beleeue it nor harken vnto it yet this is their course and so as thei saie forsoothe thei praie very hartely though fewe of them can wring out any teares in their praiers but yet with suche a faithe in the Lorde as their owne terme is that they dooe all verely beleeue the truthe is reuealed vnto them And yet perdie thei must needes be all deceiued as long as thei dwell in dissention and are not in errors onely but one contrarie to an other who now must be the Iudge to trie the spirites whether they be of God or no but onely the Churche Or els shall thei not bee tried at all but continuall permission for infinite Legions of liyng spirites to be still vndetected that thei maie seduce more and more 3 The third Reason is because S. Peter saieth plainly that no Scripture is to bee taken after any miuate interpretatiō for it was not vttered after the will and fantasie of
that descended into hellâ— and not his body and spirite bothe This being grauÌ„ted as I think you wyll not deny to doo we shall easily prooue euen by plaine wordes of the Scripture that Christe descended into hell Saint Peter in the thirde Chapter of his first Epistle sayth thus Quia et Christus semel pro peccatis mortuus est iustus pro iniustis vt nos offeret Deo mortificatus quidem carne viuificatus autem spiritu In quo his qui in carcere erant spiritibus veniens praedicauit c. For euen Christe sayth Saint Peter dyd once dye for sinnes the iuste for the vniuste that he might offer vs vnto God mortified in the fleshe indéede but quickened in the spirite in which spirite comming to those spirites that were in prison he dyd preach vnto them Nowe I thinke you wyll say that I haue prooued by plaine words of Scripture that Christe descended into hell But howe great a matter were it If this might not be prooued by any playne Scripture séeing the Nicene Créede vsed in your Masse maketh no mencion of it And Damasus that was Bishop of Rome 360. yéeres alter Christes ascencion when Iulianus the Apostata was Emperour hath in his Créede no worde of it And yet he concludeth his Creede with these wordes Haec lege haec crede haec retine huic fidei animam tuam subiuga vitam consequeris premium a Christo That is Reade these wordes beléeue them holde them faste yoake thy soule to this Faith and thou shalt obtayne of Christe bothe life and reward I note this because I sée that you shoote at this marke To binde vs eyther to prooue all your vnwritten verities by Scripture or else for lacke of such proofe to beleeue as true whatsoeuer your Catholique Church shall allowe for trueth although the same be neuer so vnnecessarie to be prooued or receyued for trueth Your sixt vnwritten veritie is the custome of Baptizinge Infauntes For this I néede not to wryte much Our Sauiour Christe hath sayde Suffer little Chyldren to come to me and forbidde them not For to such dooth the kingdome of God belong And Saint Paule sayth That the Children of beléeuing Parents are holy Therefore they are not to be holden from Baptisme more then the Iewes children from Circumcision Your other thrée whyes are scarce worthy the aunswering Why should we kéepe the Sunday now at all and not the Saturday Why should we not abstaine now styll like Iewes from strangled meates as the Apostles decreed And why may not any Heretike deny all the thrée Créedes c. The first of these whyes shall be aunswered with an other why As why may not the Church of Christians being Lordes of the Sabaoth chuse for their Sabaoth one daye in seuen euen that daye the obseruing whereof they shall sée to serue best for theyr owne edification And why did the Apostles as it maye be gathered by that which Saint Iohn hath written in his Reuelation chuse the first daye of the wéeke to be theyr Sabaoth and not the laste And why doo you not remember that Saint Paule dooth number the Sabaoth amongst such indifferent things as are Meates and Drinckes Festiuall dayes and new Moones which were but shadowes of thinges to come c. And to your second why I say that the Apostles saw that it was necessarie for the tyme to forbydde those Christians that then lately had bene Heathen men to séede vpoÌ„ strangled or blood And néeded not to abrogate it afterwarde when they were further instructed and knew how to vse the ChristiaÌ„ lybertie without offence A man might meruayle why any wise man would mooue such a why as this Your thirde last why may be fully aunswered with these wordes Because there is no thing in those thrée Créedes that may not easily be prooued by the Scriptures And thus are all your whyes aunswered But doo you not marke howe these bedlem Catholiques would shake the foundation of our Christian fayth by bynding vs to beléeue that Christes Catholique Church hath set foorth as infallibly true and to be beléeued vnder paine of dampnation three Créedes the Articles whereof they are not able to prooue by the Scriptures doo not these blinde guides thinke you leade vs a trym daunce towardes shameles error and ignorauuce And thus much to your fowrth Reason which for good cause I haue called Fantasticall Bothe for that it séemeth that you perswade your â—elwfe that you handle your selfe verie finely in all that you write therein and also for that you haue vttered nothing therein that may not well séeme to spring out of a fantasticall head The fift Reason YOur fift Reason I haue called Fradulent because you doo therein compare the lawes and Scriptures of God to the lawes of men made for ciuill pollicie and gouernment And the Iudges gouernors in ciuill pollicie to the Ecclesiastical ministers gouernours of the Church of Christ in matters of faith This is fraudulently to bring y â— holy Scriptures which of right are the toutchstone for all mennes iudgements to be tryed by to be vnder the iudgement of some one man as your Pope who challengeth authoritie aboue the generall Councels or of that number of men that shalbe gathered together in a generall CouÌ„cell which doo challenge authoritie aboue the Pope But God that is Author of all perfection and dooth dispose euery thing in a swéet and decent order hath prouided much better for his Catholique Church héere millitaunt on earth then that it should be driuen to séeke for resolution of doubts at the bandes of such Iudges as may erre as your Pope and generall Councels haue and may doo The Father of lyghts the giuer of all good gyftes in whome there is no chaunge or shewe of variablenesse The Spirite of trueth that can neyther deceyue nor be deceyued is ready at hand with euery one that in humilitie of minde craueth wisedome and wyll not suffer any such loÌ„g to be in doubt of any thing the knowledge whereof is necessarie to saluation If you sayth our sauiour which be naught doo know how to giue good gifts to your children How much more shall your heauenly Father giue the holy spirit to them that aske it of him Gods chyldren may be bolde in such cases as I haue spoken of to craue Gods spirite and assure themselues to receyue it at his handes But the proude and hauty minded shalbe as sure to finde God theyr enimie This Iudge is alwayes ready in the scriptures to open the vnderstaÌ„dings of as many as doo resort thether with humilitie of minde séeking there to be resolued of theyr necessarie doubts That both your Popes generall CouÌ„cels haue erred therfore may erre I wil by Gods help plainly proue First if it were possible to perswade you that to make a decrée directly contrarie to the expresse commaundement of God is an error then it should be an
is our mother It wyll be harde for you to finde it I wryte not this as one that would deny the Church that is the Spowse of Christe to be the mother of Christians in that sence that she is the Spowse of Christe But I write thus to let you sée that I lyke not with your manner of concluding vpon this being once graūted That this mother of ours that must néedes teach all her chyldren fyrst to beléeue in God for that faith commeth by hearing and also to know the Scriptures and is the pyller and sure stay of trueth must néedes be the absolute Iudge and imperiall Schoolemistresse to teach vs all how to beléeue in God and to vnderstande the Scriptures This geare hangeth together lyke Iermans lyps as the prouerbe is If you had sayde thus The Church being the spowse of Christe is our mother and hath receyued commission from her husband and our father Christ to teach vs all those things that he hath taught and commaūded her to doo to teach vs his children to doo wherfore if we shall not hearken to her as to our chéefe Schoole mistresse vnder her husbād and our father so long as she teacheth nothing but that which our father hath commaunded her to teach vs we shall dispise him because we despise her as it is written Qui vos spernit me spernit He that despiseth you despiseth me If you had written thus a man might haue made some sence of your wordes But as you haue written you séeme to make the gray Mare the better Horse And to spoyle our Father Christe of all his power that our Mother his Wife may not be found with out absolute power I sée not therfore why I may not for this blindnesse of your heartes say as iustly to you as S. Paule dooth to the Galathians O insensati c. Oh you foolish fellowes who hath bewitched you not to obey vnto the trueth which euen of Infants and sucking Babes as it were is discerned as cléere as the Sunne So that you must not disdayne though Maister Trippe doo tryppe you in your owne turne as a séely seducer to maintaine as you doo all so grosse an opinion béeing the forrest in déede for all such Foxes to litter theyr whelpes in And héere you séeme to haue had one fling at Maister Foxe also because you vnderstoode that he is one allowed in the Kéepers warrant to haue conference with you I meruayle howe Maister Turnebull escaped your frumpping pen. But to conclude this assercion Acquite your selfe as well as you can why you should not all be suspected to be Antichristians for as much as you doo so stowtly mayntayne that man of sinne that setteth vp himselfe aboue all that is called God and sitteth in the Temple of God and boasteth himselfe as though he were God Whome the Lord shall destroy euen with the breath of his mouthe And that worde that you woulde haue to be iudged by your Antichristian Churche shall iudge bothe Antichriste and his Church And that holy Ghost that came downe from Heauen vpon our Christes Apostles hath remayned and dooth still remaine and to the ende of the world shall remaine with his Catholique Church That is with that Church which beléeueth holdeth and protesteth that Catholique Faith that Iesus Christe commaunded his Apostles to teach Catholiquely to all Nations and sortes of peoples in all parts of the world Promising that the holy Ghost should alwayes remaine with the faithfull to direct them in all trueth and godlinesse of lyuing Thus hauing first considered the wordes of our Sauiour in sending vs to the Scriptures saying Searche the Scriptures c. I haue founde that the conclusion that you make vppon the manner of speach that our Sauiour vseth in that place of Saint Iohn his Gospell is not Secundum vnanimen consensum Patrum that is According to the agréeable consent of the Fathers and therefore condempned by your Fathers in the Councell of Trent in the fowrth Session Saint Austine dooth accoumpt acurssed whatsoeuer is taught other then out of the Scriptures of the Lawe and the Gospell Lib. 3. Chap. 6. Against the Letters of Petilian And in his booke of Christian doctrine and the .37 Chap. He saith that without the authoritie of Scripture our Faith dooth but stacker or stumble And againe in his .166 Epistle he sayth That bothe Christe and his Church are learned to be knowne in the Scriptures Basill sayth that whatsoeuer is taught without the holy Scripture is sinne Chrysostome in his second exposition vppon Mathew sayth that the true Church cānot other wise be known then by the holy Scriptures Homilia 49. Yea Saint Austine in his first booke that he wrote against the Epistle of Parmenianus and the second Chap dooth accoumpt it to be rashnesse to giue credite to any that dooth not prooue by Scripture that which he affyrmeth I dare not therefore giue credite to that which you haue written tyll you prooue it by Scripture As for your sixe Reasons that you stay vpon I haue conceyued and doo vnderstand what they be And as in the beginning of your Pamphlet you desire so haue I taken Pen in hande and haue done what I can to confute them And as I thinke haue doone it sufficiently If you can replie doo you take pen in hande againe and doo what you are able I wyll not refuse to trie the trueth of these matters with you or with the best on your side Haec est fides mea quia vera Christiana Catholica Apostolica This is my Faith because it is the true Catholique and Apostolique Faith Robertus Crowleus Subscripsit Henricus Trippe Hijs quae à Domino R. C. responsa sunt ¶ A breefe Aunswer to Maister Pownds six Reasons Written by Maister Henrie Trippe MAister Pownd hauing perused the aunswer of Maister Crowly to your sixe Reasons and finding them sufficiently aunswered by that godly Father whome you thinke not to be worthy naming as you write to me I thought good rather to subscribe to his aunswer then to frame an other How be it to take from you the aduauntage of glorying which I thinke you will easily take against me as not being able to answere you I wil breefly vrge you in some pointes wherein I sée he hath spared you And first I must néedes shew you that all your Reasons are set one a tottering foundation because y e Iudge her selfe is not cleared of suspition for you take it as a thing graūted that the Churche of Rome is the spowse of Christ which thing is in cōtrouersie betwene vs. It had bene therfore an orderly procéeding to haue dealt first with that matter and to haue put it out of doubt that your Reasons in appealing to her iudgement might haue bene the stronger Pighius one of your owne men confesseth that the question of the Church ought first to be discidid Thus you builde vpon a false principle and ouerthrowe the force of your owne
haue put in thy mouth shal not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seede nor of thy seedes seede now nor euer to the worldes ende O most comfortable promise that the Spirite of truth shall neuer departe out of the Churches mouth O fit Iudge appointed to be Iudge of Scripture for our profites without presumption Remember then I praie you what a sottishe opinion this is which is held to the contrarie that euery priuate man whom belike you wil imagine to be one of the Church shall haue good beleue to be his own Iudge in vnderstandyng of Scriptures as your Craftes men are and yet that the authoritie of the whole vniuersall Churche shall not presume to â—ake any iudgement vpon them Grauntyng this as you must needes that the Church whiche is our Mother as the Scripture saieth must needes teach all her children at first to beleeue in God seyng faithe must come by hearing and also to know the Scripture and yet that the same Church being the piller and sure staie of touch shall not be absolute Iudge imperial Scholemistresse to teache vs all how to beleue in God and how to vnderstande the Scripture For the blindnesse of your hartes I maie saie as iustly to you as Sainct Paule saied to the Galathians O Insensati c. O ye foolishe fellowes who hath bewitched you not to obeye vnto the truthe Which euen of Infantes and suckyng babes as it were is discerued as cleare as the Sunne So that you must not disdaine Maister Trippe to be tripped in this matter for a silie seducer to maintaine as ye doe all so grose all opinion beyng the forrest in deeds for al suche Foxes to litter their whelps in Therefor 〈…〉 to conclude this Assertion acquite your selues as well as you can why you maie not all bee iustly suspected to denie the descendyng of the holie Ghoste vnto the Churche for as muche as you refuse the Churches sentence in iudgement with whom the holie Ghoste is promised alwaies to remaine and in truthe to directe them Haec est fides mea quia est Catholica This is my faith because it is the Catholique faith Thomas Pownde The Aunswere to Pownde His sixt Reasons TO the six Reasons that you set doune to proue that to prouoke to be tryed by the holy Scriptures onely in the controuersies that maie arise aboute Religion is no orderly waie I might in fewe wordes aunswere thus The first Reason is fonde the second is false the thirde is foolishe the fowerth is fantasticall the fift is fradulent and the sixt is fanaticall Thus might your Pamphlet bee aunswered in sixe wordes as before you did reade it before so many witnesses as it pleased you to call to the hearyng of it I told you that I thought it might But least you should triumphe after your manner and saie that not beyng able to aunswere your Reasons at large I shifte you of with shorte sentences I will bestowe some more tyme whiche I could bestowe muche better in aunsweryng your rude Reasones I hope so that neither you nor any of your side shall be able reasonably to replie The first Reason FIrst you saie that suche controuersies maie not bée tried by the holie Scriptures because thei be mute and dumbe vttering to vs from the booke nothing but onely the wordes and not the sense wherein the life as it were of the Scripture doeth consist Howe fonde this Reason is I thynke your self should see For what sence can there bee in woordes that can not bee vttered by woordes Or what wordes can any manne vse in openyng the sense of woordes written but that the same beeyng sette downe in writyng maie as well open the cense as thei might beeyng spoken and not written you seeme to imagine that we would haue the holy Scriptures as thei bee written in bookes enclosed in coueringes to be Iudge of suche matters as you speake of for otherwise how can you call them mute and dumbe The Prophet Ieremie was commaunded to write all the wordes of the Lorde against Iuda and Israell and all other Nations in a booke and to cause the same to bee reade in the hearyng of all the people and so he did as appeareth in the .26 of his Prophesies that euery manne might bee turned awaie from their owne moste wicked waies and so the Lorde might be mercifull to them After this manner would we haue controuersies iudged by the Scriptures Not as thei bee written and kepte secret in hookes but beeyng reuereudly read wayed and considered with the circumstaunces of person tyme and place with all other necessarie circumstaunces so that the Readers beyng willyng to haue their controuersies ended dooe submit them selues to that iudgement that thei shall finde in the Scriptures so read waied and considered As for your Opinatiue man and wrangler that you speake of if he will stande still in his opinion as you your self doe notwithstandyng that it is made manifest by the holy Scriptures that his opinioÌ„ is not right he must bee taken for an Hereticke and after one or twoo warnynges reiected beyng subuerted as one that synneth euen condempned by his owne conscience The seconde Reason Your second Reason I doe call false for that you doe falsely reporte that the holie Scriptures are full of harde and deepe misteries And for that you do falsely affirme that S. Austen did sharpely reboke Honoratus for rushyng so boldely into the holie Scriptures where as he would not be so bolde as to take vpon him to vnderstand suche a Poet as Terence was without a Maister Firste I would wishe you to weigh well the wordes of S. Paule written to Timothie Doe thou saieth S. Paule to Timothie continue in those thynges whiche thou hast learned and are committed vnto thee knowyng of whom thou hast learned them and that thou hast known euen from thine Infancie the holy Scriptures which are sufficient to instructe thee to saluation through that faithe whiche is in Christe Iesus Euery Scripture that was written by diuine inspiratioÌ„ is profitable to teache to correct to reproue and to instructe in righteousnesse that the man of God maie be perfectly instructed to euery good worke If all Scriptures bee so full of harde and deepe misteries as you haue saied then can not any Scripture bee so profitable to teache c. As Sainct Paule telleth Timothie That all Scriptures be neither can the man of GOD bee thereby perfectly instructed to euery good worke We reade that our Sauiour Christe did sharply reprehende his two Disciples as he walked with them towardes Emaus for that thei were so dull and harde to beleeue that whiche the Prophetes had so plainly spoken Ought not Christe ê™ he to sufter these thinges and so to enter into his glorie As though he should haue saied are you so doltishe and blockishe that you vnderstande not so plaine speeches as the Prophets haue vsed concernyng the sufferyng es of Christe And
appearyng to them afterwardes as thei were altogether in Ierusalem He telleth them that of necessitie all muste bee fulfilled that had beene written concernyng him either in the lawe of Moyses in the Prophets or in the Psalmes And that thei might vnderstande the Scriptures he did then open their vnderstandynges Whereby it appeareth that it was not the hardnesse and deepenesse of the misteries wherewith as you saie the Scripture is full that helde them from the vnderstandyng thereof but the dulnesse of their owne vnderstandyng because thei were as yet but carnall and therefore coulde not perceiue thynges belongyng to the spirite of God as Sainct Paule hath written The naturall man doeth not perceiue these thynges that doe belong to the spirite of God Not that we bee of our selues as of our selues sufficient to thinke any thyng but our sufficiencie is of God c. Now for that whiche you haue cited out of Austine concernyng the reprehendyng of Honoratus I would gladly knowe of you what Honoratus it was that you speake of One there was of that name to whom Sainct Austine wrote his .120 Epistle But that Honoratus was not like to vse any suche speeche to S. Austine Neither doeth Sainct Austine in that Epistle vse any suche speeche to hym as you saie he did But in the laste ende of the Epistle Saint Austine sheweth hym self to be of an other mynde then by your reporte your Austine seemed to be For he saieth thus Habes librum si prolixum tamen quantum existimo non superfluum c. Thou haste here a Booke saieth Sainct Austine whiche though it be long yet as I thinke it is not superfluous But doe thou loue the Ecclesiasticall writinges also and thou shalte not finde many thynges which thou shouldest neede to seeke for at my handes But by reading and ruminating or cuddyng if thou doe also purely praie vnto the Lorde that is the giuer of all good thinges thou shalt learne throughly all those thynges or vndoubtedly very many of those thinges that are worth the knowyng rather by his inspiration then by any mannes admonition Although euen in the same thyng wherein wee doe with right iudgement allowe that man that doth outwardly admonish vs well what other thing doe we then testifie that we haue an inwarde light that doeth teache vs and is our Maister Thus farre Austine Lette your freendes iudge whether it be likely that this Austine and this Honoratus would vse suche speeches the one to the other as you reporte yours to haue doen. One other Honoratus there was to whom our S. Austine wrote his .161 Epistle This man helde with Donatus and in that Epistle Saint Austine doeth exhorte hym to render a reason quietly in writing wherefore the name of the Church should at that time remaine onely among the Donatists There was also a thirde Honoratus to whom our S. Austine wrote his .179 Epistle This man Saint Austine calleth brother and fellowe Bishop and doeth instruct hym at large in the libertie of fliyng persecution wherein he vseth not one worde that maie bee wrested to that meanyng that you haue reported But you will saie there is yet one other to whome Saint Austine wrote his Booke De vtilitate credendi Suche an Honoratus there was in deede But when you shall reade that Booke with more indifferent iudgement you shall not finde that Austine to bee of your mynde Not muche before that place that you take holde of writing of the truth of the Scripture and noting that we ought to loue the Scripture before wee learne it he writeth thus Quicquid est mihi crede in Scripturis illis altum diuinum est c. Beleeue me saieth Saint Austine whatsoeuer thyng is in the Scriptures the same is deepe and diuine truthe is in it altogether and a discipline that is moste meete for the refreshyng and restoryng of myndes and vndoubtedly so moderated that euery manne maie drawe therehence enough to satiffie him self if so be that he come to drawe after a deuout and Godly sorte as true Religion requireth And immediatly before the place that you seeme to take holde of he By that interpretation that you make of the wordes that are written in the sixteene of Mathew ye maintaine the grosse errour of buildyng Christ his Churche vpon Peter the man and not vpon Christ the Rocke not withstandyng that the best of the Catholique Doctors haue written to the contrarie Yea and herehence come all your Indulgencies and Pardones with absolute power for your Pope to doe what he will without checke or controulement I might here take iust occasion to rehearse all those errors that haue bene and are holden by your sorte and ascribe them all to that whiche S. Austine speaketh of in the wordes that you cite that is That by your sort the good Scriptures are not well vnderstanded But studiyng to be breefe I passe them ouer To proceede in mine Aunswere you eatche holde of S. Peter And he must needes helpe you to face out your lye If S. Peter will haue your fauour he must needes beare you recorde that the Scriptures are full of harde and deepe misteries as you haue taught S. Austine to saie But when the place that you cite shalbe weighed with indifferent iudgement it will be founde that S. Peters meanyng was not as you take is to be Sainct Peter hath written thus But wee looke for newe heauens and a newe earth accordyng to his promise wherein dwelleth righteousnesse Wherefore beloued seeyng that ye looke for suche thinges thee dilligent that ye maie be founde of hym in peace without spot and blamelesse And suppose that the long sufferyng of our Lorde is saluation euen as our beloued brother Paule accordyng to the wisedome giuen vnto hym wrote to you as one that in al his Epistles speaketh of those thinges amongste whiche some thynges are harde to be vnderstanded whiche thei that bee vnlearned and vnstable doe peruerte as thei doe also other Scriptures to their owne destruction If you reade these wordes of S. Peter in the Greeke tongue wherein the Apostle wrote them you shall finde that the Relatiue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is of the newter gender and cannot by the rules of Grammer agree with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whiche is of the feminine gender Wherefore it must be Englished thus In or amongst which thinges or matters that Paule wrote of and not in those Epistles that he wrote as in your application of Peters woordes you seeme to vnderstande him to meane But peraduenture you haue no good likyng of the Greeke Text neither of our Latine translations I will therefore set doune the wordes of S. Peter euen as I finde them in the translation that is allowed in the Counsell of Trent and as thei be writtē in an old written Bible that I haue in Parchment written I knowe not how many hundred yeares past Thus are thei written in the Bible Propter quod charissimi haec
expectantes satagite immaculati inuiolati ei inueniri in pace domini nostri longanimitatem salutem arbitremini sicut charissimus frater noster Paulus secundum datam sibi sapientiam scripsit vobis sicut in omnibus epistolis loquens in eis de hijs in quibus sunt quaedam difficilia intellectu quae indocti instabiles deprauant sicut caeteras scripturas ad suam ipsorum perditionem And I thinke that you your selfe would translate them into Englishe thus Wherefore dearely beloued waityng for these thinges giue your endeuour to be founde vnto hym in peace beeyng without spot and vndefiled and thinke that the long sufferyng of our Lorde is saluation euen as our moste deare brother Paule according to the wisedom that is giuen vnto him hath written to you euen as in euery Epistle speakyng in them of those thinges amongst whiche are some thinges that are harde to be vnderstanded whiche vnlearned and vnstable menne doe depraue euen as thei doe other Scriptures to their owne destruction I trust you doe see now that we neede not that reason whiche you doe call childishe and is not indeepe so childishe but that it hath in all ages been and is still allowed amongst the learned for the beste rule in vnderstandyng of places of the Scripture wherein is any difficultie But now you doe begge or rather take leaue to pose vs one question furder to the quicke And thus you saie How is it possible to knowe by any conference of the Scriptures which is Canonicall Scripture and which is not c. You seeme to bee perswaded that this question toucheth to the quicke in deede For you affirme plainly that if any Infidell Hereticke or Arbeist shall denie any parte of the olde or newe Testament or the whole olde and new Testament as in tymes past some haue doen. c. We haue no Ankor holde against such but onely the Reuelation of God to the Churche by Tradition which Churche is the piller and sure staie of truth c. I confesse that the Church is the Piller and sure staie of truthe as Sainct Paule writeth But that this truth is reuealed to the Churche by Tradition as you write that I denie For God hath taught and doth still teach the truthe to his Churche by the worde of truth and not by Reuelation or Tradition And that worde of truthe is sufficient and needeth not that any thyng should bee added to it either by Reuelation or by Tradition Yea there is an horrible cursse pronounced against all such as shall adde any thyng to in The true Catholique Churche is in deede the Piller and sure staie whereon that truthe that is taught by the worde of truthe doeth staie For that worde of truthe is the voyce of her Sheepeheard and she delighteth in hearyng that voyce but the voyce of a straunger she can not abyde to heare The truthe taught by the voyce of her Sheepehearde she laieth vp in her harte and all her delight is to lette men see it in her life and conuersation that séeing her good lyfe they may be occasioned therby to glorifie her spouse Christe and his and her heauenly Father This is that authoritie that S. Austine sayth moued him to beléeue the Gospell And this authoritie caused him to write thus against that Epistle of Manichaeus which the Maniches called theyr foundation Ego veró Euangelio non crederem nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoueret authoritas Surely I would not beléeue the Gospell except the authoritie of the Church dyd mooue me thereto Not many lines before those words S. Austine sayth thus to the Maniches Apud vos vbi nihil horum est quod me inuitet ac teneat c. That is Amongst you where no part of that thing is which might allure and holde me there soūdeth only a promising of the trueth which vndoubtedly if it be shewed foorth so manifestly that it may not be doubted of it is to be preferred before all those thinges that doo holde me in the Church I pray you Maister Pownde ponder well these wordes of Austine and be not afrayde with Austine to yéelde to the manifest trueth when it shall be manifested to you onely because it lacketh the consent of Peoples and Nations the authoritie of Myracles the nourishment of hope the increase of looue the establishment of Antiquitie the holde from Peters seate the succession of Priests and the name of Catholique For S. Augustine sayth That the manifest trueth must be preferred before all these But if you wyll marke it well you shall finde that the trueth which we holde and teach and would wishe you and all your sort to embrace dooth not lacke the chéefest of those thinges that mooued S. Austine first to embrace it For it is the same that first gotte credite by those Myracles that were wrought by Christe and his Apostles It was and is styll nourished by hope It was and is styll increased by looue it is also confirmed by that seate which you call Peters and hath the succession of Priests although not in such sort as you allowe of And last of all it hath the right name of Catholique Thus I hope you doo now sée that you haue not rightly applied eyther the words of Paule or of Austine mynding thereby to prooue that the Church of Roome being such a Church as nowe it sheweth it selfe to be is the Piller of trueth and that Catholique Church whereunto all Christians should and must of necessitie cleaue if they wyll be saued by Christe Your conclusion wherein you aduise all men to beware of fléeing from the Church to the iudgement of the Scriptures onely c. Was not so aduisedly made as were séemely to be made by one that were so well séen in the writings of y e Fathers as you would séeme to be For as I thinke yea I am perswaded that I may safely affirme there is not one of the auncient Fathers of your minde in that poynt Saint Austine in his Epistle fortie and eight written to Vincentius sayth thus Noli ergò frater contra diuina tam multa tam clara tam indubitata testimonia c. Doo not therefore Brother shewe thy selfe wylling to gather out of the wrytinges of Bishoppes reproches against so heauenly so many so cleare and so vndoubted testimonies whether the same Bishops be on our side as Hillarius or of the vnitie it selfe before the faction of Donatus was separated from it as Cyprian and Agripinus First for that that kinde of writing must be distinguished from the authoritie of the Canon for they are not so read that testimonie should be taken out of them that it might not be lawfull for any man to be of a minde contrarie thereto if perhappes they shall in any place be of other minde then the trueth requireth For we are of that number that may not disdayne to take euen vnto our selfe this saying of the Apostle And if ye be of an
other minde in any thing God wyll reueale the same to you also Thus you may sée that S Austine dooth not allowe the sentence of any man no nor the sentence of the vnitie it selfe which I vnderstand to be a generall Councell against the Canonicall Scripture The same Saint Austine wryting to Saint Ierome in his fifteene Epistle sayth thus Ego enim fateor charitati tuae c. I confesse sayth S. Austine I haue learned to giue this reuerende feare and honor onely to those Bookes of the Scriptures which nowe are called Canonicall that I doe firmely beléeue that none of the Authors of them haue in wryting erred any thing at all By this saying of Saint Austine it may appeare that he was of this minde that there may be errour euen in the decrées of your generall Councels Againe against the Donatistes Saint Austine wryteth thus Quis autem nesciat Scripturam canonicam c. Who can be ignoraunt sayth Saint Austine that the holy Scripture as well of the olde as of the newe Testament is conteyned within her owne boundes or lymittes and that the same is so preferred before all the latter wrytings of Bishops that concerning it there may be no doubt or controuersie at all whether any thing that is certainly knowne to be written in it be true or right And the writinges of Byshoppes which haue bene or be written after the confirmation of the Canon may be found faulte with if it happen that any thing therein doo swarue from the trueth eyther by more wyse spéeche of any other that is more expert in that matter or by the more graue Authoritie of other Bishoppes or the wisedome of menne better learned or by Councels yea and that the Councels them selues which are holden in particular Regions or Prouinces must without any doubting giue place to the authoritie of full Councels which are made of the vniuersall Christian world Yea that the full or generall Councels that are first holden may be amended by them that are holden afterwardes when by any experience of thinges that thing that before was shut is made open and that thing which lay hyd is made knowne And this may be done without any hautinesse of sacrilegious pride without any swelling throte of arrogancie without any contencion of spightfull enuie with holie humilitie with Catholique peace and with Christian Charitie Thus farre Austine Nowe I thinke you wyll confesse that your Catholique Church may erre or else that S. Austine one of the Doctors of that Church dyd erre For he sayth that the latter generall Councels may amend the former He sayth also that there may be no doubt or controuersie about the trueth of any thing that is knowne to be written in the Canonicall Scriptures Therefore blame vs not though we flée from the iudgement of the Church to the scriptures which can neuer deceaue vs. And as touching that inconuenience that you doo put vs in minde of which is the denying of the Scriptures by Atheists I pray you let me propone one question to you and so pose you as night to the quicke as you haue posed vs. What if your Church should vtterly be denied to be the Church of Christe Or what if those Atheists that be in Englande or else where should denie that Christe hath any Church at all or that there is or hath been any such Christe as we beléeue in Might not those Infidels thinke you laugh you to scorne for robbing your selues of your owne defence which is the worde of God which Saint Paule calleth the sworde of the Spirite But now you wyll returne to your purpose If conference of one Scripture with an other might giue lyght enough to all men Howe happeneth it that all sectes vsing that conference the sectaries can neuer agrée in theyr opinions c. To this not I but S. Paule shall giue you aunswer Oportet haereses esse vt hij qui probati sunt manifesti sint in vobis It can not be auoyded but that there must be heresies or sectes that they which be tryed may be made knowne amongst you Let S. Paule defend his owne assertion as he can I wyll betake me to that vttermost shift that you say we haue notwithstanding that you call it a weake one Saint Austine sayth that the Scriptures must be read by such as doo vndoubtedly beléeue that they are most true witnesses And these are his wordes Agant orando quaerendo bene viuēdo vt intelligant c. That is They must labour by prayer and by séeking and by lyuing well that they may vnderstand that is that they may sée in minde as much as may be séene that which they doo holde by faith And S Iames sayth If any man lacke wisedome let him aske it of God c. Thus may you sée that both S. Iames and S. Austine doo allowe of this shift which you doo accoumpt to be so weake and such intollerable pride Yea S. Austine addeth these wordes Quis hoc prohibeat imó veró ad hoc quis non hortetur Who can forbid this Yea rather who wyll not exhort héerunto doo you therfore accoūpt of it as you luste we wyll styll vse it as the ready way to attayne to that knowledge that is necessarie for vs. As for the reuealing of the trueth to the vniuersall Church for which Christe him selfe dyd praye we confesse that according to his promise Christe hath reuealed to them altogether and to euery perticular member amongst them as much as he knewe to be méete to be reuealed to them And so be the wordes of his promise Ille vos docebit omnia suggeret vobis omnia quae cūque dixero vobis He shall teach you all thinges and he shall put you in minde of all those thinges that I shall speake vnto you The pleasaunt pastime that you make with the course that we take in the searche and studie of the Scriptures I passe ouer for I knowe that he onely to whome we pray dooth know how faithfully we pray and whether with teares or without To him we shall stande or fall Iudge not you an other mans Seruaunt But you say we must néedes be all deceyued so long as we dwell in dissention and are not in errours only but also one of vs contrarie to an other And who now must be Iudge to trie the Spirites whether they be of God or no Onely the Church say you or else they shall not be tryed at all c. For the first Saint Paule hath tolde you that of necessitie sectes must be amongst men and euen amongst such as be of the Church of Christe And that because such as be allowed or tryed can not otherwise be knowen And as touching the other poynt Saint Austine sayth thus Contra insidiosos errores Deus voluit ponere firmamentum in scripturis contra quas nullus audet loqui qui quoquo modo se vult videri Christianum