well versed in Scripture have so much honesty as not to conceale from the world that true sense of Scripture which seemeth to themselves cleare and evident after the combination and examination of all controverted texts But to be briefe and decline all comparisons which are odious let us suppose for the present which Protestants ought to take as a courtesie that learned Protestants and learned Catholicks are equally honest and equally learned both honest and both learned if the contrary be not made appeare by the ensuing demonstration 5 It is impossible for men equally learned and equally honest to have any controversie about the sense of any words of Scripture if the sense be cleare and evident But Protestants and Catholicks who are supposed to be equally learned and equally honest have controversies about the sense of such words of Scripture as concerne Transubstantiation worship of Images and other controverted points Therefore its impossible that the sense of such words of Scripture as relate to Transubstantiation c. should be cleare and manifestly against the Doctrine of Catholicks Therefore the testimony of all Protestant Churches maintaining the clearnesse against them is not onely incredible but manifestly false Because the testimony of Catholicks though in their owne defence is made evidently true by the controversie it selfe a visible and undeniable effect that can proceede from no other cause amongst learned and honest men but from the obscurity of the words and sense wherein their judgements differ If they squable about what is cleare both parties or at least one is ignorant or not honest We Catholicks have no reason to thinke that all our Doctors want knowledge and sincerity its cleare to all Christenâ—ome that in our Church we have in all parts of the world â—oth learned and honest men and if Protestants thinke â—he same of themselves they must grant that our controâ—ersies do manifestly demonstrate the obscurity of Scripture 6 Seeing Scripture is obscure and in no place cleare against Transubstantiation worship of Images Purgatory c. what ground or warrant had the first Protestants for their pretended Reformation would not all the world have reason to laugh at us Catholicks if we should part with that ancient sense of Scripture in favour of Transubstantiation Purgatory c. which we received from the Church that went before us assuring it was revealed by God upon the bare word of Luther Calvin Knox or the â—2 persons that made the Ritual and pretended to reforme in Edward the VI. time the Sacraments both in matter forme and number What signes or miracles did they shew for their extraordinary Mission and Apostleship of reforming the Doctrine of the Catholick Church If any man who received his Land by inheritance from his Ancestors ought not to part with it if not forced by better evidence then his owne how can we part with our Faith and sense of Scripture which is the ground of all our supernaturall inheritance and happinesse untill Protestants shew a better title then the inheritance or continuall succession of our Doctrines from the Apostles They must produce better evidence then their pretended clearnesse of Scripture If they laugh at Quakers notwithstanding all the texts of Scripture which they have at their fingers ends against Protestant Doctrine how do they imagine did Catholicks looke upon the first pretended Reformers One advantage these new Quakers have against all Protestants which Protestants have not against Catholicks and it is that a new Quaker may say with truth to an old or new Protestant he hath as prudent ground and as good evidence for his owne interpretation of Scripture and Religion as the Protestant hath for his their fancies the onely ground of both their Faith being much alike and their Mission being not warranted by any precedent Church This the Protestants can not object against Catholicks because we had alwayes the word and warrant of a precedent visible Church for our interpretation of Scriptures and Religion CHAP. IX VVhether any Puritanicall Congregation be the Catholick Church by reason of their pretended spirit 1 THere not a trades-man or simple woman amongst the purer sort of Protestants who do not imagine themselves to be more infallible in interpreting Scripture then the Pope and all the generall Councells together This infallibility they attribute to the Spirit of God which they all pretend to have But this fond imagination is as easily refuted as the clearnesse of Scripture hath beene in the former Chap. because every pure Protestant or Puritan pretends to have the Spirit of God but that Spirit contradicting it selfe according the diversity of Tenets which the purely inspired hold it is impossible it should be the Spirit of God who can not inspire contradictions Yet they are so obstinate that its impossible to perswade them to the contrary though you may clearly convince them The Pope must be Antichrist Catholick Kings the horns of the Beast religious Orders rags of Rome wherewith the VVhore of Babylon adornes her selfe The Puritans must onely be the Elect the Saints and pure Zealots of the beauteous discipline of Sion which to carry on though whole Nations be extirpated their holy Spirit doth not onely rid them from any remorse of conscience but assures them no worke can be more meritorious If you inquire of them how they know whether this spirit of theirs be good or bad of God or the Divel Calvin their Patriarch and Master answers that they do discerne it as clearly as they do white from black sweet from sower and light from darknesse his proofe is the experience and testimony of every one of the faithfull Brethren concerning the purenesse of his owne spirit 2 This Calvinisticall and private spirit being so hidden and undiscernable can not be a sufficient and prudent ground at least for any man that hath it not to believe it is the Spirit of Truth and of the Catholick Church Men who are not in the true Church must be led into it by some credit and exteriour signes And though Faith be a gift of God yet it is communicated by preaching and hearing Rom. 10. We do not deny that God must helpe all Catholicks interiourly with his supernaturall grace and spirit but the difference between the Puritan and Catholick spirit is that the Puritan spirit inspireth a beliefe contrary to reason the Catholick spirit inspires a beliefe non contrary but agreable to reason Though Christian Faith be above reason it is not unreasonable But it can not be agreable to reason that any person believe a Puritanicall spirit without any more proofe of the goodnesse of it then a Puritans word against a sense of Scripture which hath beene continued in the Roman Churches since the primitive times as is evident by tradition testimony of Fathers and acknowledged by the Magdeburg Centuries and other Protestant Writers Therefore the private spirit can not be a sufficient proposall of the true Faith or a credible and convincing signe of the true Church
there must be good correspondence betweene both Rationall creatures are saved by a rationall way There is a generation of men that thinke none can enter into the true Church by Faith if he leaves not his wits behind him at the doore so great an antipathy they conceive is betweene Faith and Reason that to embrace the one is to renounce holy and exclude tâ—e other This errour proceeds from confounding the mystery believed with the beliefe It s very certaine that the truth of Divine mysteries ought not to be censured by human understanding because they are above its reach that which seemeth to man very improbable may be an infallible verity But that we fall not into extreames on the other side its fit we know that no person is bound to believe any mystery he understands not before he seeth reason to believe it though that reason cleares not the mystery yet it makes manifest our obligation to believe it None is bound to part with his ovâ—ne Religion or opinion before he knoweth upon what score There is nothing so much and so properly our owne as our thoughts our lands and all other properties may be forced from us our thoughts can not they remaine free though our selves should be slaves Seeing therefore its a right of nature not to part with our owne goods being in possession unlesse better evidence be produced by others then we can shew for them the same right must be extended to our thoughts even in matters of Faith because the Law of grace doth rather perfect then destroy the Law of nature and equity 3 To prove that Protestancy is manifestly against reason it s enough to prove that it is manifestly against reason to believe as Protestants do There is not one article of any Protestant Church opposite to the Roman Catholick Faith that is not manifestly against reason in this sense This assertion may be proved first because Protestancy is Heresie as hath beene proved in the 12. Chap. and Heresie is manifestly against reason for Heresie involves obstinacy and an obstinate man is manifestly unreasonable because he is guided by his will not by his understanding None can properly be obstinate if not convinced convinced none can be but by cleare reason or by lawfull witnesses to whose testimony evident reason commands all men give credit and submit their judgements if there be not cleare evidence against it All Common-wealths do acquiesce in and take the word of honest men in both publick and private affaires as in punishing Malefactors disposing of inheritances c. That the Catholich Church hath a great multitude of lawfull witnesses and testimonies against Protestancy hath beene demonstrated Therefore Procestancy is manifestly against naturall reason which dictates to all rationall creatures to conform themselves to the testimony of lawfull wicnesses when they have no evidence against the said testimony Protestants can not pretend evidence of reason against Catholick Tenets because they are above reason Evidence of the private spirit is ridiculous and incredible to others therefore unfit for the true Catholick Church as hath beene proved in the 9. Chap. There remaines onely their pretended evidence or clearnesse of Scripture which hath beene alsoo confuted in the 8. Chap. Other lawfull witnesses against ours they have none unlesse we grant that an invisible Church never heard of before Luther hath lawfull testimonies And as for the sentences of some Fathers which they wrest in their owne behalfe we produce others against them of the same Fathers in which they explaine themselves Therefore it s manifestly against reason to believe as Protestants do because they have no prudent ground for Protestancy their Faith is not above reason but below it that is unfit to be embraced by any rationall creature 4 Another manner of proving Protestancy to be manifestly against reason is by this cleare principle When witnesses and testimonies are contrary they onely are to be believed who confirme what they say with visible and evident signes Reg. 3 Salomon judged that the child about whom there was so great a dispute betwixt the two women did belong to her who shewed a visible and sensible horror against the dividing of the infant into two parts Though the other was confident enough in testifying the child was her owne yet because her testimony was not confirmed by any exteriour and visible signe the contrary testimony was preferred and believed by Salomon If we will judge of Religions as wise and rationall men we must examine which of all Christian Churches testimony is confirmed with evident and visible signes No Protestant Church all of them being invisible for so many ages can pretend so evident and visible signe The Roman Catholick Church doth not onely pretend to visible signes but they are so evidently appearing in the said Church that no Protestant can deny them without forfeiting his judgement or his ingenuity The visible signes of the true Church must have so evident a relation to God the Author of both Church and Faith that whosoever will reflect upon the said signes can not prudently deny that they are a sufficient proofe of God being the Author of the Doctrine or Faith confirmed by them There can not be a more rationall and sufficient proofe of any Doctrine being taught by Christ and his Apostles then a continuall succession from them to us both of Pastors and Doctrine delivered from age to age by the Doctors of the Church See this in Esay 59.21 Psal 45.16 Ephes 4.11.12 5 As for our succession of Pastors it is confessed by Protestant Our succession of Doctrine from the Apostles to this present must also be granted because they could never tell us though continually pressed in that particular point when did the Roman Church fall from the true and sincere Faith which confessedly it once professed And And truly before Protestants prove that the Roman Faith was changed in any age they must first prove that all the Pastors and Doctors of that age did conspire together to damne both themselves and posterity or if they did not conspire to so incredible a thing it must be necessarily said that in that age wherein the first change of any article of Faith happened all the Catholicks of the world weremad or slept for the space of a hundred yeares because if they were awake and sober its impossible but in some parts of the world nay in every part and Countrey some learned and honest men would contradict so damnable and abominable practises and advertise future ages of the innovation of Christian Religion contrary to cleare Scripture and the knowne beliefe of all Catholicks in former ages It s as evident therefore that we Roman Catholicks have not changed that Faith which we received from the Apostles as it is evident that there was not any age wherein all the world conspired to damne themselves and their posterity or as it is evident that there was not any age wherein all the world was so benummed stupified or
both may be part of the Catholick Church Protestants as wâ— have seen in the former Chapter say that aâ—â— Christian Congregations are parts of the Catholick Church as well as we Roman Catholicks Thiâ— assertion they ground upon the signification of the worâ— Catholick which is as much to say as Vniversal In the saâ— me sense they explicate Catholick Tradition to be onelâ— that which is contradicted by any Christian Church According to this opinion no Congregation of Christian can be Hereticks because Hereticks must be obstinate against the Doctrine of the Universall or Catholick Church but no Christians can be obstinate against thâ— Doctrine of the Catholick or Universall Church seeinâ— themselves are part of it and they can not be obstinate against themselves or their owne Tenets and Doctrine therefore none can be Hereticks This absurd and hereticall sequele is a sufficient refutation of the Protestant principle and their explication of the word Catholick 2 But let us prove directly that neither all Christians nor any two Churches dissenting in their testimonies concerning whatsoever matters of Faith can be the Catholick Church My proofe is this The testimony of the Catholick Church concerning what is pretended to be revealed or not revealed by God must oblige all persons who are informed of it to believe what it saith and proposeth But if all Christians or any two Churches not agreeing in their testimonies suppose Roman Catholicks and Protestants be parts of the Catholick Church the testimony thereof can not oblige any sober person to believe what both say and propose First because one Church contradicts the other and its impossible to believe contradictions at one and the same instant Secondly when witnesses do not agree in their testimonies if they be of equall authority no man is obliged to believe either side but rather is bound in prudence to suspend his judgement Therefore if the Catholick Church be composed of all Congregations and Churches of Christians or of any two Churches not agreeing in their testimonies concerning matters of Faith no man is obliged to believe the testimony of the Catholick Church but rather to suspend his judgement and credit nothing which sequele is absurd and contrary to the Doctrine not onely of Catholicks but also of Protestants Therefore the Catholick Church must not be all Congregations of Christians or any two dissenting but one onely Congregation of persons who agree in one Faith CHAP. VII VVhether the testimony of the Catholick Church be infallible not onely as Protestants terme them in fundamentall but also in not fundamentall articles of Faith 1 THough we Catholicks say that all articles of Faith if once sufficiently proposed are in one sense fundamentall because under paine of damnation they must be believed yet in ananother sense we admit a distinction betweene fundamentall and not fundamentall articles of Faith Fundamentall articles may be called such as no ignorance of them can excuse men from damnation for not being believed Not fundamentalls may be called such articles as if proposed must be believed but if not proposed sufficiently the ignorance of them is excusable 2 But whether these articles be both called fundamentall or onely the first sort of them our controversie with Protestants is the same and the question is not set here out of its proper place because the resolution of it is necessary to answer an objection which Protestants make against the Doctrine of the former Chapter All Christians say they do agree in fundamentall points of Faith as in the Trinity Incarnation c. what great matter is it if they agree not in other things of little importance without the knowledge and sufficient proposall whereof they may be saved as Purgatory Transubstantiation c Why should we be obliged to believe things that are not absolutely necessary for salvation especially seeing Roman Catholick Divines do not deny that ignorance of not fundamentalls is not damnable Therefore all Christians though dissenting in not fundamentalls may be called Catholicks and the universall Church because they agree in all necessary articles of Catholick Religion and though their testimonies do not agree in Purgatory v.g. being an article of Faith why should their disagreement in that petty point invalid their testimony concerning the mystery of the Trinity Incarnation and other fundamentall articles 3 This discourse and objection of Protestants hath damned many a soule because they did not examine the truth of it as they ought But to declare the fallacy of it something must be said of the Churches infallibility Most Protestants do grant that the testimony of the Church is infallible in proposing the fundamentall articles of Christian Religion as in delivering Scripture to be Gods Word and in declaring the mystery of the Trinity c. because Christian and Catholick Faith must admit of no doubts concerning the truth of fundamentalls and if the Church be not infallible in proposing those to us we must necessarily doubt of their truth for though we doubt not that whatsoever God said is true yet we can not but doubt whether he revealed or meant any such thing as the mystery of the Trinity or Incarnation if we do not believe that the Church is infallible in proposing the said mystery God therefore in his Providence can not permit the Church to erre or deceive us in fundamentalls seeing its necessary for our salvation not to doubt of the truth of fundamentall mysteries but if the Church may erre in proposing them we can not but doubt of their truth This reason say Protestants can not be applyed to not fundamentalls because they are not absolutely necessary for salvation and our salvation is the onely motive that God had to make the Church infallible in proposing articles of Religion Therefore none is bound to believe that the Church is infallible in not fundamentalls 4 If the onely motive that God had to make the Catholick Church infallible were our salvation this discourse of Protestants might have some colour of truth but Gods motive in all his actions is not onely our salvation but in first place his owne honour and glory There is nothing concerns Gods honour more then that whatsoever is sufficiently proposed as revealed by him be credited by us without the least doubt whether the matter be great or of little importance Therefore the Churches infallibility and our obligation of believing it ought not to be measured by the greatnesse importance or absolute necessity of the matter proposed in order onely to our salvation but also by the sufficiency of the proposall in order to Gods honour and veracity If a matter not absolutely necessary for salvation be as sufficiently proposed to be revealed by God as the mystery of the Trinity the obligation is as great of believing the one without any doubt as the other The reason is cleare because there is as great an injury done to God by denying or doubting of his veracity and revelation in a small matter as in a great In believing
heare the exceptions of Protestants against each of these mysteries Against Transubstantiation they object the evidence of our senses it never being read in Scripture say they that God by a miracle deceived mens senses or made appeare to them one thing for another Moyses and Aarons rod in Egypt was really converted into a serpent and seemed so also to the senses of the spectators The Magicians rods seemed to be serpents to the senses but really were not From hence they conclude that by false miracles and illusions the senses may be deceived but never by true supernaturall signes or miracles Against Transubstantiation they object also novelty of the word and of the thing defined which was in the Councell of Lateran first and after in the Councell of Trent 3 As for worship of Images they looke upon it as idolatry or at least as a thing inclining the common people to it and therefore both dangerous and unlawfull Some object also novelty against it the first time say they worship of Images was heard of being some 800. yeares ago in the second Councell of Nice 4 Now to their first exception and the evidence of their senses against Transubstantiation I answer that the senses are not deceived because according to common Philosophie their proper object which are the accidents do remaine But seeing divers both Catholicks and Protestants do deny that there be any accidents separable from their proper substance my second answer is That there are two sorts of miracles Some miracles are wrought not to be seene but to be believed because they are not onely miracles but also mysteries of Christian Faith The Incarnation or Union of God and man in one person is one of the greatest miracles yet it was not done to be seene or manifested to our senses in this life but being concealed from them to be believed The miracle of Transubstantiation is called by Christ himselfe Mysterium Fidei a mystery of Faith it was not done to be perceived by our senses but to be believed by our understanding 5 Other miracles there are which have been wrought by God to the end they may move us to believe not themselves for they are seene and manifest but some other revealed truth these miracles are patent to our senses because they give us sufficient evidence that the mysteries of Faith may prudently be credited as Divine Revelation Such was Moyses his miracles in Egypt the rod was not turned into a serpent that Pharao and the Egyptians should believe what they did see with their eyes but that they should believe somewhat else to wit that Moyses was sent by God 6 Supposing this difference betweene miracles there can be no difficulty in answering the objection made by Protestants against Transubstantiation Miracles which are not wrought principally to the end that they may be believed by Faith but rather to the end they may be evidently seene and by their meanes other mysteries believed can not deceive the senses because then they would be of no use Gods providence and end in working them would be frustrated Miracles which are together mysteries of Faith and are done that they may be believed and not seene must not appeare evidently to our senses but rather be concealed from them otherwise we should have evidence and beliefe of one thing in the same time The mystery of Transubstantiation is a miracle not to be evidently seene but to be believed Therefore it s no mervaile that it be not patent to our senses when Christ turned water into wine he did it in such a manner that the sense perceived it to be wine because from that evident and sensible miracle they might inferre and believe that he was the true Messias But when he changed bread and wine into his owne Body and Bloud there was no appearance of change it seemed to remaine still bread because the insensible change of one substance to another was a mystery to be credited and not to be seene The Manna which was a figure of the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar did savour to the Jewes whatsoever they fancied though it remained the same substance it was before I see therefore no reason why we Christians should give more credit to our palat then the Jewes who had as much reason to doubt of the Manna as we of the Sacrament nay we have lesse because Christs words are so absolutely and cleare This is my Body if it be his Body it is not bread being impossible that Christs Body should be bread 7 Seeing God will not have the mystery of Transubstantiation be evident to our senses it s not to be thought either superfluous or incredible that the species or appearance of bread and wine worke the same effects which their substance would have done if it were present for God is as coherent in supernaturall things as in naturall its necessary therefore for the concealment of this mystery and for the merit of Christian Faith that no want of the substance of bread and wine may be perceived in the Sacrament by any curious experience of men who would eate and drinke onely conscerated species The not manifesting this great mystery to our senses requireth that the same effects be worked by the species as by bread and wine 8 Some Protestants thinke it a contradiction that one body be present in many places together But all Catholicks hold that Christs Body and Bloud have a spirituall presence in the Sacrament which once granted there can be no difficulty in believing that our Saviours Body and Bloud may be in many places at the same time because it s granted to all things which have a spirituall presence 9 If any inquires how can a body have a spirituall presence I answer him with demanding how can a spirit have a corporall presence How can an Angel have the appearance and presence of a young man whereof there are many examples in Scriptures Whence it followeth that our senses may be deceived or to speake more properly may give occasion to the understanding to be deceived not onely in the mystery of Transubstantiation but also in others expressed in Scripture which is contrary to what our adversaries object Angells seemed to the eyes of Abraham Iosue Tobias and others to be young men and yet they were not men but spirits 10 As for their saying that Transubstantiation is a novelty brought into the Church by the Councell of Lateran an 1215. it s a mistake because the very condemning of of Berengarius as an Heretick for impugning this mystery doth demonstrate it was no novelty but believed as an atticle of Faith not onely before the Councell of Lateran but since the Apostles For otherwise how were it possible that the Patriarchs of Hierusalem and Constantinople 70. Metropolitanes 400. Bishops and 800. Conventuall Priors who were present at that Councell should all agree to declare Transubstantiation to have beene revealed by God to the primitive Church and yet the same to be at the same
though the Church can not its testimony ought to be believed Many Clownes who unanimously say they have seene an Eclyps or extravagant inundation of the Sea deserve credit though they be no Philosophers or Mathematicians and consequently can not give any cleare reason of an Eclyps c. Therefore the testimony of Catholicks ought not to be rejected concerning Transubstantiation or any other mystery though they can not give cleare reason for it it s enough for them to recurre to Gods omnipotency 7 But how say Protestants can we be called Hereticks or obstinate if we are content to submit our judgements and believe what is sufficiently proposed as Gods Revelation We onely deny that the Roman Church doth propose sufficiently as Gods Revelations their Decrees in the Councells of Trent and Lateran c. To this I have answered in the third Chap. and now againe do affirme that there is no Prince who doth propose his commands and sense concerning any matter more sufficiently by his subordinate Ministers then God doth his Word and sense of Scripture by the Roman Church Because there hath not beene onely a continuall succession of this Doctrine we professe from the primitive Church to this present which neither the Greeke Church See Chap. 9. nor any other can pretend to having changed the Doctrine of Faith more then once but because there do appeare such evident signes of the Roman Churches being appointed by God to declare to all the world the true Faith and sense of Scripture that it must be obstinacy in the highest degree to doubt of the sufficiency of the Roman Churches proposall and testimony First the conversion of Nations by Roman Catholicks in all parts of the world is evident Secondly no other Church doth pretend to miracles but we alone Thirdly we heare of no eminent sanctity confirmed by prophecy and other supernaturall signes in any Church but in ours Fourthly there is no unity peace or end of controversies but amongst us all submitting our judgements in matters of Faith to any generall Councell approved by the Pope Fifthly no Church hath continuall tradition and succession of Doctrine but we Roman Catholicks 8 All these signs are marks of the true Catholick Church and are so obvious to our senses that idiots may take notice of them if they will but inquire and spend as much time in that as in reading the History of their owne Countrey or of informing themselves of their Ancestors This is the true reason why no Protestants can pretend ignorance of the true Church nor rely upon the word of their Ministers If they inquire not they will be damned for being ignorant If after due inquiry made they become not Roman Catholicks they will be damned for Heresie not onely for denying the truth of our Doctrine and Faith but also the sufficiency of its proposal He is a rebell who denyeth that the accustomed exterior signes of the Princes commission and authority which are seene in his Officers is not a sufficient proposall of his will and pleasure to have the said Officers obeyed as his Judges or Deputies c. I see no reason why the same ought not to be grated with proportion in our case unlesse Protestants thinke that Princes ought to be more respected in their Ministers then God in his Church or that there is greater evidence required to believe that God doth speake by his Church then to believe that Princes do speake by their subordinate Ministers Truly though this greater evidence were required Protestants can have no excuse because the signes of the Roman Church are greater evidence that it alone is the true one by which God declares and speaketh his minde then the signes of any Magistrate in a Common-wealth or Kingdome are of the true regall authority of the said Magistrate by which Kings and Princes declare their minde to the Subjects See more in the 4. and 5. Chapters CHAP. XIII VVhether any Protestants may be saved 1 THough Protestancy be Heresie all Protestants are not Hereticks there is a difference saith Saint Austin betweene Hereticks and them who believe Hereticks The greatest wits may be misinformed if they rely upon other mens informations 2 To the question proposed I answer that such Protestants as never had any occasion to doubt whether their owne Religion be the true one may be saved if they never committed a mortall sinne because they are baptised and dye in the grace of God which they received in the Baptisme Now whether there be any Protestants who never committed a mortall sinne the Lord knowes this I am sure of that there are very few in any part of the world who have not great reason and many occasions to doubt of their owne Religion Because amongst them or neare unto the places where they live there are Catholicks who as Christians and true Friends advertise them of the falshood and novelty of their Sect. And though the Protestant Ministers assure them that they are in a safe way of salvation when others as honest and learned as the Ministers tell them the contrary they are bound under paine of damnation at least to examine the truth and grounds of both Religions according their capacity and possibility which if they do sincerely that is setting aside all regard of honour interest conveniency and all other temporall affections which obstruct the understanding God in his providence will give them knowledge of the truth and resolution to embrace it 3 But in case Protestants contemne the charitable warnings given them by Catholicks of the Schisme and Heresie wherein they are involved and neglect Gods inspirations of examining the truth there is no question to be made that if they dye in that condition they are damned because though they were brought up Protestants they had reason to doubt of their Religion seeing as honest and learned men as those that gave them their education and instruction advertised them seriously of their danger And not to examine whether the danger be reall or not in a matter of so high concernment is not excusable no ignorance can be pretended after they are admonished by sober and honest men I conclude therefore that onely such silly soules as believe the Pope hath hornes and the Jesuits cloven feete can be excused by ignorance from damnation for not believing as Catholicks doe because if any such be they are so simple that they believe all which the Minister sayes as Gods Word and that nothing ought to be called in question How many Ministers there be who deserve this credit and esteeme of infallibility even amongst the least prying and simple people let their owne Parishes and the world define This I dare say that there are few Protestants who commit not at least one mortall sinne and that is enough to damne them though their invincible ignorance as schoole men speake may excuse their want of true Faith But the want of Charity is as damnable as the want of Faith and we have no reason
by examining the truth of the mysteries we believe that is to be supposed and not disputed To be a good Controvertist is not to give reason of what you believe but to give reason why you believe what you understand not this last requires no Greek or Hebrew nor Schoole learning and therefore may be as well performed by a Catholick Clowne is by a Bachelour of Oxford or Cambridge 10 Now to descend to particular methods hereby the learned Protestants may be convinced by illiterate Catholicks I will onely mention two both of them very ordinary and usuall amongst the most vulgar sort of people The first is by asking of Protestants What newes of Religion The second by inquiring of them by what right or warrant do they condemne any article of the Roman Catholick Faith I do seriously averre that every Countrey-man who hath wit and judgement enough to except at the Assises against an illegall and false witnesse hath leaming enough to convince in controversies of Religion the most learned Protestant Minister And every carrier or husbandman who hath so much wit and judgement as not to believe an extravagant and incredible history or ballads of some strange feigned Monster hath wit and judgement enough to convince any Protestant whosoever The reason of this Assertion is very cleare because there was never so incredible a Monster or Chymera composed of so many contradictions and impossibilities as this new fangled Religion framed by the fancies of a company of dissolute Priests and Friars pretending to have beene enlightened by the Spirit of God and sent by an extraordinary calling without miracles to reforme not onely the manners but also the Doctrine of the Catholick Church What Countrey Clowne amongst Catholicks can be persuaded to believe that all this which the first Protestants pretend is true Is it not obvious to every rationall creature that God never made use of so wicked instruments to reforme the world and plant the true Religion What evidence do Reformers produce against the Doctrine of the Roman Church what witnesses what signes to confirme their testimonies Do Protestants agree amongst themselves All this will be more clearly understood by the ensuing Conference betweene a Catholick Clowne and a learned Protestant Minister SECT II. A Dialog betweene a learned Protestant Minister and a Catholick Clowne 11 CAth. What newes good Master Doctor of your English Protestant Church Minist As much persecuted as ever Bapists were by Queen Elizabeth There is liberty given to all Sectaries Anabaptists Quakers c. we onely are excepted against Cath. I see no reason why ye Protestants should not be reformed by Puritans and Quakers as ye reformed us Catholicks I am sure they bring as many texts of Scripture against your Doctrine and Discipline as ye did against ours Minist We reformed onely your Papisticall abuses that were contrary to the cleare Word of God Cath. The same thing do Puritans or Presbyterians say against you But it s incredible newes to me that which you tell me of any abuses we should have in our Church contrary to the expresse Word of God Minist Didst thou ever read the Scripture Cath. No truly Minist I knew so much the reason why ye are not permitted to read the Bible is that ye may not discover the errours which Jesuits and other Masse Priests teach ye as the respect to Images and Statues praying to Saints Purgatory c. These and many more are clearly contradicted by Scripture Cath. Though I were permitted to read Scripture I can not because I never learned to read Yet I have spoken with many learned men who read Scripture and they all unanimously assure me that there is not one word in all Scripture contradicting worship of Images praying to Saints or Purgatory Now I see no reason why I should reject their testimony and take yours 12 Minist Faith is a gift of God thou must not tye it to any mans sleeve pray to God that he may give thee his Spirit Cath. I have heard much of a Spirit that every one of ye Protestants and Puritans pretend to have but I could never see any effect or signe of it Minist We Protestants pretend no such Spirit Cath. How come ye then to alter the old sense of Scripture which was in England for a thousand yeares before Edward the VI. if no Spirit did inspire or interpret the Scripture after the reformed fashion why did ye not stick to the old way Minist Because we could not in consciences there being so many cleare texts against Popery Cath. That is incredible for in the space of a thousand yeares some man or other would meet with those cleare texts Minist Well thou art an honest fellow we will not dispute thou art not capable of understanding what I have to answer to that objection of thine Cath. Nay good Master Doctor trust my understanding for once I pray resolve my doubt Min. Truly I must deale clearly with thee I am of opinion that for the space of one thousand yeares past all Roman Catholicks did hold damnable Doctrine manifestly contrary to Scripture yet I believe their ignorance did excuse them from damnation 13 Caeh How is it possible that there should be so much ignorance in all the world for the space of a thousand yeares that none could see those cleare texts of Scripture which you and other Protestants pretend to see Min. Mistake me not Countreyman the texts of Scripture which we produce against your errours and superfluities are not so very cleare but that they may be misunderstood if God doth not enlighten the understanding as he hath done to us Protestants Cath. I thought you pretended no such Spirit or private inspiration I heare reported by credible Authors that the first Protestants or Reformers in every Countrey were dissolute Piests or Friars who married and lived not so exemplarly as the Catholick Clergy doth Therefore I can not persuade my selfe that God would enlighten them more then us at least I am not bound to believe it unlesse I see miracles or some other markes of sanctity which is more then ever I perceived as yet in any of your Religion I hope you will pardon my freedome Min. I warrant thou dost believe all the miracles that are reported to have beene done at Loreto Sichem and other Chappell 's Didst thou ever see any miracle thy selfe Cath. No indeed but I have seene others who were present at the working of strange miracles as that of Naples when the Jefuit Mastrilli was cured on a sudden by Saint Francis Xaverius and sent by him to lapon where he dyed a Martyr Many others I have heard testified by credible Authors that I have as much reason to believe as any who should endeavour to persuade me the contrary therefore trouble not your selfe in this matter unlesse you will have me doubt of all things I heare because I have been deceived in something Min. Why believe not ye our miracles as ye would have us believe