Do you feel that they say true for instance when they tell you that our Saviour turn'd Water into Wine and that he raised Lazarus from the dead N. C. No I know these things otherways C. Then you must know the rest by the same means that you know these viz. by believing Eye-witnesses of these things who you find are persons worthy to be credited N. C. But I feel the Commands of Christ are exceeding good and agreeable to humane Nature which the Apostles have delivered to us C. That is you find it good to live soberly and peaceably to be charitable to others and to take up your own Cross with Contentedness and Patience N. C. Yes C. But may not these things be felt by Heathens as well as you And may not they by Experience commend the practice of these Vertues to us N. C. I think they have done it C. Then this Experience of the goodness of Christ's Commands is no proof of our Creed by which we are distinguished from Heathens No nor will your Experience prove to any man that Christ's Commands are excellent any farther than he believes that you say true when you tell him what trial you have made of the best kind of Life and that you are a person fit to judge of the Difference of things N. C. Methinks I feel that Jesus Christ is in the Heavens and in great Power and Glory there C. Whatsoever you feel in this matter it is the Effect of your belief not the Cause of it I mean you first believe that he is in Glory before you can feel any good hopes in your Soul of immortal Life And you believe his being in Glory upon good Reasons else you do not know but entertain your self with a pleasant Dream both of his Glory and yours And lastly whatever you feel it is no proof of the truth of the thing but only of the truth of your Belief It is to be proved otherwise that Christ reigns gloriously in the Heavens and is able to bring us into his everlasting Kingdom only your being so mightily affected with it proves that indeed you believe it But you had best look you have good Reasons for your Faith For all the Severities of the Religious men among the Turks prove likewise that they believe strongly in Mahomet though I hope if they quote their Experiences never so much you will not be a Disciple to their Prophet and hope he will take you by the hair of the head and pull you up to Heaven N. C. I find that you are able to talk more rationally than I can in these matters But yet I find likewise there is another kind of Spirit in our people than in yours For they delight more in Heavenly Discourse and are alwayes talking of Religion when they are together which argues they are not of so slight a Spirit as others who love to discourse of unprofitable things C. Do you and I talk frothily as your phrase is and spend our time in unprofitable Chat Is this Discourse earthly and not at all pertaining to Religion And deal sincerely with me do not you sometime when you are together pass the time away in speaking against Bishops and Common-Prayer and the Government Do you not know some that are ever complaining of the Times in which we live and saying the former Dayes were better than these And are the Reasons of this murmuring so Heavenly as you suppose Do they not say the Nation was in more Credit and had a better Reputation abroad and they a better Trade at home and such like things N. C. I cannot deny but I have heard some Professors talk thus But there are a great number that you shall scarce ever hear talking of any thing else but Heaven and Jesus Christ and the business of their Souls C. And such people there are in all Parties and Sects in the Christian World who perhaps are never awhit the better for that N. C. How irreligiously you talk C. Not at all For unless they take a true delight in God and in that Heavenly Discourse above all other things and unless they understand what they say and delight also to do God's will in all things I think they had as good be talking of or doing something else N. C. Can they possibly be better imploy'd C. Yes that they may For if they only tumble out a great many words and Phrases which they have learn'd they had better be Studying what the Religion of Jesus Christ is And if they talk of those matters meerly as it is a Duty and be not so heavenly-minded as that whensoever they have leisure it is the greatest joy that can be to be thinking or discoursing of them they will do this after a very bad fashion when some other good thing they might have done better as visited the Sick inquired after the Wants of the Poor or ordered some Parish-business And again unless they be very prudent and do not think they must needs draw the Company wherein they are who are ingag'd perhaps in other necessary Business to hear their discourse I think their room as we say would be better than their company or that it were better that they would hold their peace For if a man take himself to be bound in Conscience to be always speaking of these things as I doubt many do it is the effect of Superstition which makes Religion a great burthen to a man's self and others For whether he and the Company be disposed or no this he thinks is his Business which he often manages very dully and without any Taste thereby rendring Christianity Contemptible and making himself also still more flat and indisposed for all honest imployments All which considered I leave you to judge whether that man had not better have bestow'd his time otherways for then he might at the end of it have been good for something whereas now he is good for nothing at all but mopishly sits bewailing himself and complaining of the deadness of his heart N. C. Ought not a man to be always thinking of Heaven C. No He may and ought sometime to think of other things And he should do it without any Scruple not fearing that he is ill imploy'd when he doth not break God's Commands N. C. He may be meanly imploy'd C. That is he is but a Man and not yet come to the degree of an Angel N. C. But when others are recreating themselves as you call it ours are talking of Heaven C. If it be their choice and if they do not neglect any necessary Business nor censure others that do not as they do I have nothing to say against them But as I told you there are so many such like people in all Religions that you must not imagine this is a thing peculiar to yours And if they think they offend God if they do otherwise and if they condemn those that now and then innocently recreate themselves and sigh over them as
the Demonstration of the Spirit and of power C. True there is no compare between these But hath your Minister that Demonstration of the Spirit and of Power N. C. Yes sure if ever any man had C. That 's good news for then we shall see that which before we only believed Hath he the gifts of the Holy Gost Can he speak with Tongues and Prophesie and work Miracles and tell us the thoughts of mens hearts N. C. What do you mean C. I mean that which the Apostle Saint Paul meant who had this Demonstration of the Sipirit and of Power which he gave the world to convince them that Jesus was risen from the dead and was made Lord of all whom they were therefore bound to obey N. C. But I mean something else C. Pray tell me what that is Only let me desire you not to use words without the sense belonging to them and to intreat your Minister that he would hereafter forbear to pray to God that he may speak in the Demonstration of the Spirit and of Power for no body now can hope to do it N. C. I mean that he is spiritually enlightned to search the deep things of the Spirit of God which the natural man cannot discern C. I wonder at you that you should not discern the Apostle there speaks of the Holy Ghost i.e. the wonderful Gifts of it in them which â—ssured them of those things that no meer natural Reason could prove I doubt your Minister is not spiritually enlightned because he doth not instruct you better in the Scriptures N. C. Scriptures He never says 〈…〉 but he quotes a place of Scripture for it 〈…〉 Sermons are nothing else whereas you 〈…〉 but Rational Discourses C. I remember I have heard a wise man say that one may talk nothing but Scripture and yeâ— speak never a wise word And I verily believe it for it is not the Word of God when we mistake its sense as you commonly do N. C. Doth yours do any better C. Yes he seems to me to make it his business to let us into the meaning of the holy Book And he backs his Reason not with phrases snatch'd from thence but with such place as manifestly speak the same sense that he doth N. C. I have heard him sometimes endeavouâ— to open the Scripture but methinks he doth not do it in a Spiritual way but onely Rationally C. My good Neighbour consider what yoâ— say Do you think that these two words Spirituaâ— and Rational are opposed the one to the other If they be then Spiritually is as much as Irrationally and absurdly N. C. No pardon me there I do not think those two are opposite but Carnal Reason is opposite to the Spirit C. To speak properly you should say that Carnal Reason is opposite to Spiritual Reason That is a Reason that is guided by Fleshly lusts â—s opposite to that which is guided by the Gospel of Christ Ns. C. I say as I said before it is opposite to the Spirit C. You must either mean as I do or else that it is opposite to the Gospel which is frequently called the Spirit in Scripture But pray tell me how shall we understand the Gospel by our Reason or by something else Ns C. By the Spirit C. What must we have an immediate Revelation to make us understand its sense or must we study and consider and lay things together and so come to know its meaning N. C. Yes we must give our minds to it and then the Spirit enlightens us C. That is it guides us to reason and discourse and judge aright Is not that it you mean N. C. No I mean it shines into our minds with its light C. These are phrases which I would have you explain if you can My Question is this Doth the Spirit shew as any new thing which is not the conclusion of the Reasonings and Discourses in our minds about the Sense of Scripture N. C. I cannot say it doth C. Then you confess that the Scripture is to to be interpreted in a Rational way we not having that which is truly to be called Spiritual in distinction from the other viz. the immediate revelation of the Holy Ghost which the Apostles had N.C. Still I cannot think that this is Spiritual C. That is you are prejudiced or else you phansie every thing that you do not understand to be Spiritual N.C. No not so but the manner of understanding the things of God methinks should be other than you conceive C. Truly if you have any other manner of understanding besides this and have not the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost I conclude you take the sudden and many times pretty suggestions of Imagination to be Illuminations from above N.C. Now you have hit on something that I would have said The Spirit doth often dart things into my mind C. How know you that Do you take every thing that comes into your head you know not how to be an Irradiation from the Holy Ghost N.C. No I dare not say so C. Then you examine it and consider whether it be rational and coherent or no. N.C. Yes C. Then you fall into our way whether you will or no. And whatsoever you think of us we do not deny but God's good Spirit puts good thoughts oft-times in our minds and represents things more clearly to us than we could make them by all our reasonings which is as much as to say that it lets us see the reasonableness and aptness of such a Sense for instance of the Divine Writings as we discerned not before N.C. Well I am glad to hear you speak so much of the Spirit C. You might hear ten times as much if you would but frequent our Assemblies For there we are constantly taught that the very ground and foundation of our Faith in Jesus Christ is the Spirit i.e. the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven upon our Saviour and his Apostles N.C. You mix so much of Reason with what you say that I am afraid you are not in the right C. You should rather conclude the contrary and not believe any thing but what you have a good reason for N.C. Say you so How then shall I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God Can Reason tell me this C. I am sorry to see you so ill instructed If you had continued to hear our Minister he would have made you understand before this time that though our reason could not find out that Truth yet God hath given us the highest reason to believe it And this I told you is the Spirit the Spirit in Christ and in his Apostles N.C. Pray explain your meaning for I understand not these new Notions C. The Holy Ghost I mean descended on our Saviour at his Baptism with a voice from Heaven saying This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased This is one reason we have to believe on him Then he wrought miracles by the power of this
Days which is to make that necessary which God hath left free But yet notwithstanding you your selves stick not to lay such a necessity upon men of observing Dayes now and then as if there were a Divine Commandment for it for you think they have no Religion or want the Power of it that do not And what a stir do you keep to have Lectures on the Week-days as if we were dead and had but a Name to live unless we hear a Sermon or two then whereas very good Christians perhaps have no more time to spare from their honest Imployments than they ought to bestow in private Prayer and Meditation digesting of what they heard the Sunday before searching seriously into their Consciences and constant Examination of their Lives and Actions in conferring with their Ministers about their Doubts or those Indispositions or perhaps ill Inclinations which they find in their Souls in Comforting the poor and the sick in Endeavouring to reconcile Differences among Neighbors in consulting how to advance the publick Good either of the City or Town where they live and discharging the publick Office well to which they may be called If after all this done they can find any leisure to hear a Sermon who is there that forbids it We are only afraid lest whilst the necessity of that is so much urged things more necessary should be neglected N. C. You say a great many notable things but yet to me you seem a man of a slight Spirit which you betray when you speak of these weighty matters C. If you mean that I slight many of those things which you think matters of great weight and moment I cannot contradict you But why you should thence conclude I have a slight Spirit I see no cause For therefore I slight them because I have throughly consider'd and examin'd them and find there is nothing but Fansie or Superstition at the bottom of them Mistake me not your honest Affections I do not slight but the things to which you are so affected As for instance you abound in insignificant Phrases and Scripture-Expressions misapplied You have a great many Superstitious Conceits Opinions and oftimes alledg your Experiences very absurdly N. C. Nay now you discover your self Doth not this argue a profane Spirit to slight Experiences when the Apostle mentions Christian Experience as a part of our Rejoycing and Glory Rom. 5.4 C. I do not slight his Experiences but yours and not all of yours neither For if by your Experience you meant that you had made a proof of your Constancy and Faithfulness to Christ by patient enduring of any Affliction for Righteousness sake and made a Trial also of his Faithfulness in performing his promises of giving us Strength Support and Comfort which I conceive is the Apostle's meaning I should accuse my self of great Profaneness should I slight it But when you will needs give me this word for a proof of a thing of which I know you have no Experience and perhaps can have none and when you alledg your Experience in a matter of Reason and in effect say no more than this I pray believe me you must not take it ill if I make light of it As for example when you will tell us you find by Experience that you are in the right way it is a thing that may be entertain'd with a smile It is in truth no better than to say you may take my word for it For whether you be in the right or no is not to be known by Experience but by Reason In like manner if you tell me you find by Experience your Minister is a good man because he doth you good it is a frivolous Argument and I may be allow'd to slight it for it cannot be known by your Experience what he is You can only know by your Experience that you are made better but he may be bad enough notwithstanding As the Quakers were reform'd of Cheating and Cousenage in some places by those who there is great reason to suspect were cheating knaves themselves N. C. But I may know by Experience whether the things he preaches be true or no. C. It will deceive you if you rely upon that Proof For you may have some good done you by false Principles Nay those very Principles may make you do some things well which shall make you do other things ill N. C. That 's strange C. Not so strange as true For what Principle was it that led the Quakers to be just in their dealing N. C. That they ought to follow the Light within them C. This led them also to be rude and clownish and disrespectful to Governors For all is not Reason that is in us there is a world of Fansie also and the Flashes of this now and then are very sudden and amazing just like Lightning out of a Cloud By this they find they were mis-led in many things which they have now forsaken being content to wear Hatbands and Ribbons too which they so much at the first abominated N. C. I take them to be a deluded people C. And yet they are led they will tell you by Experience For they found themselvs amended by entring into that Religion whereas they cheated and cousened in all other Forms wherin they were before And therefore do not tell me any more of the good you have got by your private meetings nor make it an argument of their Lawfulness For the same Argument will be used against your selvs by the Quakers who will tell you God is in no private Meetings but only theirs for otherwhere they could never find him Take your choice and either let it alone your selves or else allow it them It will either serve both or neither N. C. But I have seen you smile if one bring his Experience to prove the truth of Christian Religion C. Yes and very deservedly Because the Ground upon which we believe it to be true cannot be known by Experience nor is your Experience of any thing in it a Ground for any other man to believe it You cannot know for instance by your Experience that our Saviour was born of a Virgin that the Holy Ghost came upon him at his Baptism with a Voice from Heaven saying This is my well-beloved Son in whom I am well pleased You cannot know by that means that he dyed that he rose the third day that he went to Heaven forty dayes after and after ten dayes more gave the Holy Ghost and that S. Paul was struck blind with the Glory of our Saviour whom 〈◊〉 saw and heard and was sent by him to preach the Gospel N. C. Yes I feel that he and the rest of the Apostles speak the very truth C. They say all these things and do you know them by your feeling The Apostles indeed felt or saw or heard them but we cannot do so nor know them by any other means than their Testimony N. C. I feel that their Testimony is true C. What
affections to its side and makes them move according to its direction Now I believe your Affections are moved in the first way very often by melting Tones pretty Similitudes riming Sentences kind and loving Smiles and sometimes dismally sad Looks besides several Actions or Gestures which are very taking And the truth is you are like to be moved very seldom in our Churches by these means For the better sort of Hearers are now out of love with these things nor do they think there is any power either in a puling and whining or in roaring and tearing voice But if you can be moved by such strength of reason as can conquer the Judgment and so pass to demand submission from the Affection you may find power enough I think in our Pulpits And let me tell you the Passions thus excited differ as much from the other as the motions of a Man do from them of a Beast if not more For one may be affected whether he will or no by Objects of Sense but Reason convinces and moves us by sober consideration and laying things seriously to heart And I wish heartily you would examine whether the cause why you was no more affected with our preaching was not this That you took no pains with your self i. e. you would not be a Man but was contented to be moved in Religion like a meer Puppet whose motions depend upon the power of other Agents and not its own N.C. You need not have made so long a discourse in this business for when you have said as much as you are able I can answer all in a few words Assuring you that I am moved with the things they say for I think they are the most soul-searching Preachers in the world C. It is an hard matter to understand your Phrases If you mean such Phreachers whose Doctrine touches the Conscience letting men see their duty and their sins plainly I think none are to be preferr'd before ours N.C. Pray Sir consider what you say C. What I have said I say again And I must add that I have cause to believe some of you have left our Congregation because the good man's Doctrine searched into you too far and came too near the quick N.C. I understand you not C. Have you never heard any man say that he would come no more to Church because his Minister ript up his sins of Disobedience to Goverâ—ours Faction Rebellion Reviling Superiours â—ash Censuring and judging their actions immodest and malapert Disputing with Spiritual Instructors Meddling with other mens matter Gadding from house to house to hear or tell news if not to talk against the Court and Church with other such like things that are too common but not commonly reproved N.C. Yes I cannot deny it C. Then no doubt he search'd to the bottom of that man's heart who finding himself wounded instead of seeking for a Cure kick'd at him that shot the arrow and flung dirt in his face calling him Railer and Reviler when he only told him the plain truth N.C. You are angry C. No truely I am only desirous you should understand things nakedly as they are in themselves N.C. Do you think that our Ministers do not inform their Auditors of the danger of these sins C. If they did I believe they would have fewer come to hear them N. C. You are uncharitable C. No such matter I know many of those that flock to them are not able to bear such Doctrine But they call those plain and searching Preachers that rip up other mens faults and that discover to them some kind of sins which they have heard the Godly most bewail and complain of for instance Deadness of heart in duty Spiritual pride and unprofitableness under Ordinances though so powerfully administred N. C. Well and are not these homeâ— truths C. But I doubt many of those you call Godly are troubled with other diseases which had need be look'd narrowly after And besides me thinkâ— your Ministers do too plainly commend themselves when they tell you what powerful Ordinances you live under and how you are fed witâ— a feast of Fat things whilst other poor Soul are even starv'd in other Congregations mean in a such as ours N. C. You might as well say that they commend us when they caution us so much againâ— Spiritual pride C. You are in the right It doth too palpablâ— suppose you to be endowed with great gifts and so is apt to put you into a high conceit oâ— your selves notwithstanding all their cautioâ— against it And therefore my opinion is that they had better teach you all your duty and then finding how short you are of Perfection that will be a more effectual means to keep you humble than all their Declamations against Spiritual Pride N. They do tell us our duty And I assure you some preach even against those sins which you say we do not love to hear of C. I 'l take your word for it But they are rare men and they do it rarely I could tell you also of one that doing thus was forbid by his Auditors to proceed if he intended to have their company N. C. Methinks you should not suspect any of them to be guilty of negligence in these matters Do you not take them for conscientious and good men C. Yes truly I think there are many good men amongst them But to deal plainly with you I look upon most of them as very imperfect and in a lower form of goodness N. C. Strange What reason have you for this C. They do not govern their Passions nor reverence their Governours nor Elders nor fear to make a Schism in the Church being furiously bent to follow their own fancies impatient of Contradiction conceited of their own Gifts too ready to comply with the Peoples follies and to humor them with new and affected phrases nay to gratifie their rudeness with most unsavoury clownish and undecent expressions not only in their preaching but in their Prayers And especially they seem to me to have little and narrow spirits wanting that great Charity which our Saviour commends and confining Godliness to a smal Sect and Party N. C. O Sir how much are you out of the way If they were not the best men in the world they could never come so close to us in their Preaching and search the very Heart as we find they do C. Now that you repeat this again you force me to tel you that which otherwise I would have concealed N. C. What 's that C. That if we may judge of the Sermons you hear by those we see in print I think many oâ— them are so far from searching into the Conscience that they rather dally and play with menâ— childish phansies N. C. Are you in good earnest C. Why should you make a doubt of it Yoâ— know I do not use to jest N. C. I do not believe you can give me onâ— instance of any such thing C. Yes but I can and more than
not know them perhaps you would admire them above most of your own N. C. Then I should conclude they had the Gift of Prayer but suppress it C. So they have but it is both in you and us onely a Natural gift or acquir'd by Exercise and Practise and Imitation N. C. Now you speak prophanely C. I speak the sense of the soberest of your own Party as I verily believe who would say the same if they durst but deal plainly with you And as simple as I am I dare undertake to justifie the truth of what I say against any of them if they have the face to contradict it N. C. I see you leave the Spirit of God nothing to do in our Prayers C. Would you would see how you forget your self Did I not tell you what the Spirit of Prayer was how that God bestows it upon us when he gives us a sense of himself and of our needs and stirs up in us holy desires and passionate longings after his Righteousness which we should express in such words as are becoming that Majesty with whom we have to do And this is the reason that we take care to chuse our words and not leave them to extemporary invention especially in the publick Service of God N. C. Do you think they will ever want Words whose hearts are full of Desires or can great Affections ever fail to furnish us with plenty of Language C. Yes that they may For all experience tells us that very great and high Affections are too big for Words and make a man at a stand for want of Expressions which no man sure will think a seemly thing in a publick Congregation And the passions of Admiration and Reverence of God restrain a mans forwardness of speaking to him and make him like a few words best which he is not then in a fit case to invent Aâ— for lesser Affections and superficial Heats I grant they seldom let a man want words if he have tolerable Parts and make him speak more readily than he would do at another time yet they are not able ever to furnish him with those that are fit proper and decent Which methinks should make you not quarrel with a sober form of words at least in our publick Devotions N. C. Would you could perswade me that a Form of words is lawful to be used it would go a great way to perswade me to come to your Church C. Strange that you should be so inapprehensive It is so lawful to use a Form of words that I have shewn you it is in a sort necessary that is we can have no security that the Service of God will always be performed well without one N.C. I confess I do not yet apprehend you C. Observe then I say the best of men though their hearts be full of good desires may from some cause or other want such words as are fit and proper to express their meaning In this case they must hack in an unseemly manner or make a stop or use such words as are too rude and slovenly or speak broken and imperfect language or at the best such as is too hard and obscure and unintelligible by the Vulgar None of which things are to be permitted in the publick Worship which ought to be performed with the greatest solemnity and gravity And therefore to prevent that Undecency and secure the Service of God from all that is unhandsome you must consent to a prescribed Form of words wherein men shall address their humble and hearty Desires to him For though some men at some times may pray well enough yet other men and the same men at other times may be very confused and full of Tautologies and it 's well if they endeavour not to supply these defects with rude Clamours brutish Noises and a deal of the Holy Scriptures wofully misapplied Beside how can you persuade any strangers to be of our Church or to hold any Communion with us if they do not know how we worship God And how should they know that unless you can produce something which by a general consent is own'd for his Service This no doubt is one reason why all Churches in the world have had their publick Forms of Prayer that they may let every body know how God is served by them and why the best men in Reformed Churches have wished those happy days might come of amity and friendship that they might by a Common Counsel and Consent form a certain Liturgy which might be as a Symbol and Bond of Concord among them all And truly I cannot advise how your Ministers can justifie themselves in separating now from all the Reformed Churches as well as ours with whom they covenanted to maintain an Uniformity not onely in Doctrine and Discipline but Worship also To me they seem to live in an open breach of one branch of that Covenant of which they are so tender For they do not endeavour in their place and calling to reform according to the example of those Churches N. C. What should they reform now they have no power C. Themselves and their Congregations which they take the boldness to gather who ought to serve God according to the Covenant after the example of the best Reformed Churches all of which have an Order and Form of Prayer and never imagin'd that those written Forms did bind up and stint the Spirit This is a peculiar phansie of your own who have no Form at all in any of your Conventicles or Meetings though it is in the power of your Ministers to have one as well as to hold such Meetings and though they be bound by their League and Covenant to do their endeavor to imitate those that have Nay I much question whether they use the Lord's Prayer They that do I believe have the least company such is the prejudice which they contrary to their Covenant have sowen in peoples minds against Forms of Prayer even that of the Lord's Which thing considered it makes me astonish'd at your impudence in pretending such niceness of Conscience and fear to break your Covenant when you break it every time you meet together without some Form of Divine Service N. C. They onely covenanted to reform this Church of England according to the example of the best Reformed Churches which they cannot do C. Onely do you say Is that a less thing then to reform a particular Congregation Methinks they should think themselves obliged to do what they can when they cannot do what they would and to do that in a part which they cannot do in the whole that is bring in some Form of Prayer into your Churches for so no doubt you esteem them N. C. I do not think they can if they would C. Why N.C. Because most of us think Forms unlawfull C. That 's their fault who either taught you to believe so heretofore or do not instruct you now to believe otherwise Though it were a very casie thing for them to do
if they were lost they trouble the World and themselves to say no worse a great deal too much with their Superstition N. C. You give liberty to your people even to go to see Plays C. Did you ever hear any of our Ministers commend Plays for a good Divertisement to their people N. C. No But they do not discommend them and shew how unlawful it is to use such pastimes C. How should they when they never yet saw it prov'd that they may not be lawfully used But they preach against all undue and in ordinate use of lawful pleasures among which they number this for one And in this business they are as faithful as your Ministers could be were they in their places and perhaps a great deal more discreet N. C. These discreet men have spoil'd Religion C. You should have said indiscreet men for that is the truth who declaim so violently against innocent things that they are not at all regarded when they speak against things Sinful Their Zeal is equal against things indifferent and things unlawful and so the people easily imagine there is no more reason against the one than against the other Besides they lay Burthens upon men which are not necessary and make Christ's Yoak heavier than indeed it is which is a great Discouragement and Hindrance to some making them unwilling to submit themselves to him And again they intangle Religious People in a world of Scruples which make their lives very uncomfortable N. C. Then your Ministers belike allow your Religious people to go to a Play C. You have put a good word in my mouth they do I believe allow it in due measure Incourage them to it they do not but yet cannot say if they be ask'd the question that they sin if they do N. C. They might tell them they may be better imploy'd C. What Authority have they to pronounce that in general terms Sometimes they may and sometime perhaps they may not And beside this if we be always bound to do that which is best which you suppose we can never tell whether we please God or no but shall be ingag'd in endless Doubts For it is an hard matter sometime to discern which is best and one thing may appear best when I consider such and such things and another will seem best when I reflect upon other matters And I may verily be perswaded looking but at a few things that this thing is best for me to do which indeed is rather bad and should not be done As I may conceive it best to wear no Lace no Ribbans no fine Cloth or silk but give all the money I spend in such things to the Poor whereas this may prove very pernicious though it have a shew of great piety and maintain many poor in idleness that love not Work and spoil the Labors and Trade of many others who would not live idlely Farther how much time must we pass in resolving which is best in every action we do as whether it be best to eat now or stay a while longer to drink this Cup of Wine which is offered me or refuse it to talk with a Friend or to part with him to visit a Neighbour or to stay at home And while we are deliberating in this fashion the thing might be done which we had a mind unto and we might be return'd to that which possibly we thought would be best It is sufficient therefore that we be well imploy'd and we ought not to torment our selves and mispend our time in fears lest we have not done the best Let us but consider whether no necessary Duty toward God or Man that we are capable of will be neglected when we go to divert our selves and then we should not spoil our innocent Delights with needless Jealousies N. C. But surely this liberty you give will do people hurt for they are apt to take too much of it C. Many will take it whether we give it them or no. But I can assure you there are many excellent persons of extraordinary piety whom I know who will not take it though we give it Not that they think it an unlawful thing as you do but they have no use for that Liberty They are above such pleasures and can find imployment or ingenious Divertisement that is far more sweet to them I know others that scruple not the thing at all and yet judge it not so expedient for them in their place and relation and so wholly forbear it which is a far greater Vertue than that which you boast of as much as it is more noble to abstain from those pleasures we think lawful than to be restrained only from those which we think are sinful I am acquainted with others also that go to Plays but very rarely only for a harmless Recreation when they are dull or to accompany a Friend that earnestly importunes their company And these methinks are as much above those whose Piety you so much admire as it is an harder thing to abstain from the pleasures of which we have tasted and find to be very agreeable to us than to forbear those to which we are strangers and know nothing of Besides these I know others that go oftner and yet I dare not say they are not pious because I see by all their actions that they love God and Man And I have heard them say that the time they spend on that fashion doth not hinder them in any Christian Duty that they know of and yet they are not negligent to inform themselves and is a great deal better spent than in talking against ones Neighbours or hearing others rail upon the ill management of Affairs and find fault with the times or such like things N. C. None of those things need be done neither C. It is true But they want company they can find little of any fort where those things are not their entertainment And it is very considerable that such people pass for Godly among you who spend many hours in talk of that nature now mention'd and therefore we would fain know why we may not with better reason call those Godly that go to Plays and otherways are unreproveable I say with better Reason both because this is at least more innocent if it be not perfectly blameless than backbiting ones Neighbours and our Godly do nothing but what they allow whereas yours do that which they cannot but condemn I am also of the opinion that our Ministers speak as often if not more frequently against the excessive use of that Recreation as yours do against all Bitterness Wrath Anger Backbiting and Evil-speaking which are altogether unlawful N.C. I did not think you would have justified these things so far as you do C. You need not have a worse opinion of me for that because I do it not to justifie my self For I am one of those that never saw a Play in my life nor ever intend to see one I could wish also there were