Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	believe_v	faith_n	reason_n	7,423	5	5.8303	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A45835	Vindiciæ veritatis, or, An impartial account of two several disputations the one being on the 12th. and the other on the 26th of February, 1671. between Mr. Danson a non-conformist minister, and Mr. Ives, upon this question, (viz) whether the doctrine of the possibility of some true believers final apostacy, be true, or no? Published to prevent false reports. Together with an appendix; in which the said question is more fully resolved in the affirmative, and the absurd[i]t[i]es of the negative opinion detected from the pens of divers of the patrons of it. By a lover of truth and peace.; Contention for truth	Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674.	1672 (1672)	Wing I1106A; ESTC R218068	84,282	219

manner that any believers is heard when he prays for his enemies because there is in the matter of the prayer there is a submission to the will of God as to those things which the particular decree and councel of God did not appear about Mr. Ives Did he know whether these People would believe or not believe when he prayed for them Mr. Danson There is some things that Christ is ignorant of as the day of Judgment because Christ faith he did not know it Mr. Ives But the question is still where it was at first for I say and grant unto you that whatsoever Christ prayed for absolutely he was heard in and whatsoever he prayed for upon condition there is also a true sense in which it may be said he was beard in all such prayers because he did not pray for the pardon of his Enemies but upon condition of their Repentance Now if they had Repented and had not been pardoned then Christ was not heard in this prayer but if they remained in Impenitency and were never pardoned he was nevertheless heard in this prayer And now you are to prove that what he prayed for in this prayer for his Disciples perseverance he prayed for absolutely and not conditionally or else you do not argue of my distinction Mr. Danson Why so Mr. Ives I will shew you why If Christ prayed for some things that were not effected upon the persons non-performance on their parts and yet in this he might be said to be heard then the prayer you mentioned must be of this kind or absolute and if it be absolute shew it Mr. Danson If Christ was heard always in what he prayed for then this was an absolute prayer Mr. Ives And must he not when he prays for the Conversion of others and the forgiveness of others and when he prayed that the World might believe was he not heard then And did not Christ in the same prayer John 17 pray that all that believed might be one as the Father and He were one Now if this prayer were absolute How comes it to pass that there are so many sad divisions among Christians ●●id not Christ pray that all True believers might be kept from the evil of the World how comes it to pass that many of them fall into many worldly pollutions If these prayers were absolutely heard and the thing effected How could there be either such fowl pollutions or such great divisions among True believers all which plainly shews that Christ prays for these effects upon their use of such means as that they might thereby obtain both unity and purity in like manner he prays for their perseverance in grace upon the condition of their use of means as praying watching c. But there is no absolute prayer for such perseverance as you Fancy Mr. Danson He was not heard in that prayer as a private person Mr. Ives Shew that distinction in the Bible where doth the Scripture say he prayed for some things as a publick person absolutely and every thing came to pass as he prayed for in that capacity and at other times that he prayed as a private person and he was then heard only in some things Mr. Danson I have shewed you Luke 23. Father forgive them c. Mr. Ives Suppose that prayer was no answered according to your way of explication as to their being actually pardoned yet then it makes against you since you gave that reason why True believers could not fall away because the Lord Jesus Christ saith himself Father I thank thee thou hast heard me always and that he was heard in all he prayed for and thence you inferred they could not fall away that were True believers because Christ prayed for their perseverance and was heard in all he prayed for But is there not the same reason to conclude that all Christ's crucifters shall be forgiven and that the World shall all believe in him because Christ prays for these things if it shall be said Christ prayed for the World and his Enemies as a private person and so it might not come to pass Why may it not be said he prayed for the perseverance of all believers as a private person and so some may fall away not with standing but if it be said he prayed for believers absolutely and without condition why may it not be said he prayed so for the World and his Enemies Mr. Danson So that if you suppose in the one place he was not heard and in other places he was then you must admit of that distinction of his praying as a publick and a private person Mr. Ives I deny the Consequence for when Christ prayed that they might be converted he prays as be did for other things according to the rule he had prescribed Now you prove that he was heard as to this point of perseverance because he was heard in all he prayed for Now I confess some things he was not heard in in the sense explained as to the coming to pass of them and I have told you why because the prayer was conditional when Christ here prays for all that should believe then he prays that the World might believe that the Father had sent him was that prayer absolute and was it heard Did the World believe Pray speak Sir Mr. Danson Indefinitely they did Mr. Ives Did not Christ pray that more might believe then in time did believe or then was given him out of the World Mr. Danson I By a common faith such as they might fall from Mr. Ives Was this common Faith true or false Mr. Danson It was true in its kind as truth stands in opposition to counterfeit Mr. Ives Mr. Danson saith that this Faith that Christ prayed for that the World might have was a common Faith and true in its kind in opposition to Hypocrisie and such a Faith they might fall from I say no more that it is True Faith in opposition to fained or counterfeit Faith now this is all that I had to do to prove that men might fall from such a Faith as is opposite to a Counterfeit or fained Faith and this Mr. Danson confesses they might fall from though he hath all this while disputed against it Mr. Danson That 's not the question Mr. Ives It was for by a True Faith we explained before to be such a faith as was True in opposition to a hypocritical or seeming Faith Thus ended the last Dispute in which it was observable that Mr. ●ves was much interrupted not only by two and sometimes three at once of the Ministers that were of Mr. Danson's perswafion but the multitude that stood that way affected were very rude and uncivil beyond what is here taken notice of and it is observable that Mr. Danson never opened his mouth to pray them to be quiet all the time though Mr. Ives took much pains to perswade them once and again yet still they were the more tumultuous but on the other hand the People that were

long upon Mr. Danson I did not Mr. Ives Sir you told me that Paul might labour to prevent his being a reprobate or cast-away that is as you at last interpreted the word a man that might not be approved that is to say in the judgment of Christian Charity then Sir I told you he laboured to prevent nothing but what might come to pass and then I asked which of these senses was the true sense of the Text and you answered the Latter and then I told you you had spent half an hour and more to no purpose about the former sense if the Latter which was contrary to it was the true sense Mr. Danson You tell part of the Truth but not the whole Truth I do not deny but taking the words as our translation rendred them and according to the Vulgar account of the exposition we affirmed the thing but then we also affirmed that there was no absurdity in it that Paul should use Caution to prevent that which he knew was impossible to come to pass and I also told you that the word being capable of another sense I chose rather to stick to the last Mr. Ives You told me that the last was the true sense but come Sir do any thing that will conclude the Question if you will not I shall not answer you Mr. Danson I will prove that it is not needless to give Cautions nor to make use of Cautions to prevent that which yet notwithstanding is impossible to be or to come to pass Mr. Ives That is no part of the Question you are to prove that it is impossible for any True believer to fall away totally and finally If you will not conclude that in your syllogism I will not dispute for I am now to dispute this Question with you whether it is impossible for any True believer to fall away totally and finally I say some may you say none can do you not Mr. Danson Yes Mr. Ives Prove it then Mr. Danson If some True believers may fall away totally and finally from Grace then we may suppose that some True believers have fallen away totally and finally But no True believer hath fallen away totally and finally from Grace Ergo no True believer can Mr. Ives This is a false Syllogism For Mr. Danson saith if some may fall then some have but none have Ergo none can and though the minor proposition may be detected if the conclusion bad been rightly inferred from the premises yet however the consequence of the major is false Therefore I deny your major Mr. Danson I argue upon your own grounds Mr. Ives I deny the major do you prove it if you can upon what grounds you will so it be proved upon a good ground I pass not Mr. Danson Whatever is Potential hath been done Mr. Ives That is false but prove your major proposition for that is the thing denied and you beg when you should dig A thing may be possible to be done though no body hath done it therefore throw up your Argument and say you cannot prove it or else prove that whatever hath not been done is impossible to be done Mr. Danson I Argue upon your self Mr. Ives If you beg of me I will give you nothing I say prove your major proposition if you can Mr. Danson I say I cannot prove it Here Mr. Danson confesses he cannot prove his Argument Mr. Ives He that will use a medium to prove an Argument must prove his medium Mr. Danson I will prove then by a new Argument Mr. Ives Come then Mr. Danson If some True believers have fallen away totally and finally from grace they are either those in the 2 Pet. 2.19.20 or Heb. 6.6 that are some of those examples But they are no examples of persons falling away from Grace Ergo No True believers have fallen totally and finally from Grace Mr. Ives I deny the whole Argument for you do not conclude rightly you must conclude Ergo. Then if none have fallen none can fall Mr. Danson They are your consessions therefore that is a proof Mr. Ives I desire this Gentleman to prove that it is impossible for any True believer to fall away totally and finally from grace and he hath no way to prove it but saith I confess it when all this while I have been disputing against it Mr. Danson These were the instances you urged of True believers falling away totally and finally from Grace Mr. Ives Prove your major I say Mr. Danson I here prove it if that the characters that are given in these Texts that do carry the greatest likely hood of True believers falling away do not prove it then they cannot fall away But the first is true Ergo. Mr. Ives Sir I deny this Argument for it doth not conclude the major that was denied in the former Argument either prove that or else go back to the question and prove by some other Texts of Scripture or Argument and so conclude Ergo It is possible for any True believer to fall away totally and finally Mr. Danson I appeal to all persons if a retortion of an argument be not according to all the Laws of Disputation Mr. Ives I confess it Retortion is good when you are Respondent that was your business last time but now you are to give me an Argument to prove that it is impossible for any True believer to fall away totally and finally I did the last time endeavour as well as I could to give Mr. Danson the best reasons to prove that some True believers might fall away and Mr. Danson is now to give me some Scripture proof or argument that they cannot fall away It may be possibly I did not urge all my arguments and it may be a True doctrine though it be not true from those arguments I did urge and I cannot urge all Truth at once It may be true from other reasons though not from them and we all know but in part and what if I erred the last time is that any proof for you Mr. Danson I Retort your own Arguments Mr. Ives You do not argue at all I denyed your major proposition of the former syllogism and it is not proved neither have you concluded it Now rather then lose time I deny the consequence of the major of your last argument which is that if any True believers have fallen away totally and finally that it is true from those two Texts Heb. 6.2 Pet. 2. or else that it is impossible they can fall away Mr. Danson I will prove your arguments erronious Mr. Ives Prove it or else prove your last consequence denyed or go back to the consequence of the former argument which is not yet concluded which is this that if there be no examples of any True believers falling away then none can fall away Mr. Danson If there be any examples of the falling away of True believers they are some of them that you alledge Mr. Ives That doth not follow but I appeal to

is grounded upon the promises of the second kind that I before premised and they are such promises as 2. Thes 2 3. But the Lord is faithful who shall stablish and keep you from evil Phil. 1.6 He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ 1 Cor. 8 9. Who shall also confirm you to the end c. 1. Pet. 1.5 Who are kept by the mighty power of God through faith unto Salvation Phil. 2 12 13. Work out your own Salvation with fear and trembling for it is God that worketh in you to will and to do of his good pleasure 1 Thef 5.24 Faithful is he which hath called you Who also will do it That these Scriptures do not prove that which they are alledged for viz. That Go hath absolutely undertaken and ingaged for all True believers so and at that rate that ler them do what they can they cannot cease to be True believers But such Scriptures as those last named do only assure all True believers that God will not be wanting on his part to effect their perseverance if they are not wanting to themselves and for the better understanding hereof we are to consider that God is said to work those vertues in us and to do all for us when he vouchsafeth sufficiency of means for the effecting thereof though the thing be never effected thus Christ is said to take away the sins of the World John 1.19 Though the World lyeth in wickedness because he hath done that which is sufficient to take away the sin of the World and to cleanse them from all unrighteousness To the same purpose the Scripture speaks in Ezek. 13.42 because I have purged thee and thou wast not purged th u shalt not be purged from thy filthiness any more till I have caused my fury to rest upon thee God in this place is said to have PURGED THEM THAT WERE NOT PURGED because he had vouchsafed proper and sufficient means for their Purgation and so St. Augustin speaks of Christ As much as lyeth in the Physician he came to save and heal the Sick and he slayeth himself that will not observe the precepts of the Physician And after this manner the Apostle argues Rom. 2.4 5. That the goodness of God did lead them to Repentance though many of them were so far from being lead to Repentance that he tells them that after their hardness and impenitency of heart they treasured up to themselves wrath against the day of wrath c. In this sense are those Scriptures to be understood of Gods keeping believers from falling and preserving them to the end and of his promise that they shall be kept from evil which whether it be of the evil of punishment or the evil of Sin believers are never so kept but that they may and sometimes do fall into the one and the other and therefore those texts must be understood of Gods doing those things by his gracious vouchsafement of means sufficient to keep believers from evil and from Back sliding and of doing all that which is necessary on his part for their persevering and keeping to the end And as concerning those Scriptures that speak of Christ's prayer for the perseverance of all true believers and tha he was not heard in all he prayed for if they do not all persevere this hath been answered in the Disputation how that Christ did not pray for their perseverance in any other sense but by their careful and diligent use of the means God had vouchsafed them they might be kept from falling and in this sense he was heard in all he prayed for although with Judas some True believers should fall away in this sense he prayed that the World might believe and that all believers might be in unity and sanctified and kept in the World from evil though we see few of the World do believe or few believers live in that unity or are so sanctified as to be free from the evil of the World therefore Christ's prayer explains it self when he prays for believers sanctification John 17 Sanctifie them THROVGH THY TRVTH thy word is Truth So that one may run and read that this prayer of Christ concerning the perseverance of True believers was upon condition of their use of means which was no more absolute then his prayer either for their sanctity or unity and neither the one or the other more then any that God would so bless them in the use of such means that thereby they might attain those blessed ends all which implies that it was possible for many things never to come to pass that Christ thus prayeth for and yet he is notwithstanding heard alway in all things The last ground of this perswasion that no True believer can siually fall away is this viz. that the contrary doctrine of the possibility of True beliezers falling hath absurd consequences attending it The first is that it makes God changable because the Scripture faith Mal. 3.6 I the Lord change not therefore the Sons of Jacob are not consumed Thence it is inferred that if God hates those whom he once loved he is changable to this I answer that if God had promised to love men absolutely and without condition then the Sons of Jacob must be loved of God though they were never so wicked or else God must be subject to change But this cannot be the sense because God hates all the workers of Iniquity again the Scripture tells us concerning Elia's Sons 1 Sam. 2.30 I said indeed that thy house and the house of thy Father should walk before me for ever But now saith she Lord far be it from me for them that honour me I will honour and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed of The like we have in Jer. 18.7 8. At what time saith God I shall speak concerning a Nation and a Kingdom to plack up to pull down to destroy it if that Nation against whom I have pronounced it turn from their evil I will repent me of the evil that I thought to do unto them And at what instant I speak concerning a Kingdom to build and to plant it if it do evil in my sight that it obey not my voice them will I repent of she good where with I said I would benefit them ●he like we have in the 18. Matt. 32. those ●at had been for given had all their debt afterwards exacted because they would not ●r give their fellow-servants and who dares ●y that God changeth if those men that had ●is wrath abiding on them in the days of their ●sidelity should upon their believing continuing in the Faith be saved and delivered ●rom wrath and vengeance Nay would it ●ot argue a change in God if he should have ●one otherwise viz. if he had let wrath remain after they had repented forasmuch as ●e had promised to remove it upon those conditions and in like manner would it not 〈◊〉 a change in