give them no peace or quietness in the World unless they will say that Gods Natural Revelations are false and that all mens senses are herein deceived by God as the great deceiver of the World CHAP. II. The Papists Answers to all this confuted P. IT is easie to make any cause seem odious till the accusations are answered which I shall confidently do in the present case I. All this is but argument from sense And sense must vail to faith Gods word must be believed before our senses R. It is easie to cheat fools and children into a dream with a sound of empty words To talk of senses vailing to faith and such like Canting and insignificant words may serve turn with that sort of men But sober men will tell you that sense is in exercise in order of Nature at least before Reason or faith and that we are Men and Animals before we are Christians And that the truth and certainty of faith presupposeth the Truth and Certainty of sense Tell me else if sense be false how you know that there is a Man or Pope or Priest in the World that there is a Book or Voice or any being And what possibility then have you of Believing P. Gods Revelation is surer than our senses R. This is the old song over and over Revelation without sense to you and ordinary Christians at least is a contradiction How know you that God hath any revelations If by preachers words How know you that there is a preacher or a word but by sense If by books How know you that there is a book but by sense P. II. We may trust sense in all other things where God doth not contradict it But not in this One Case because God forbiddeth us R. Say so of your Church too your Pope Council or Traditions that we may trust them in all cases save one or two in which it is certain that they do lye And will not any man conclude that he that can lye in one case can lye in more If one Text of Gods word were false and you would say You may believe all the rest save that how will you ever prove it For the formal object of faith is gone which is the Divine Veracity He that can lye once can lye twice So if all our senses be false in this instance how shall we know that they are ever true P. You may know it because God saith it R. 1. Where doth God say it 2. How shall I be sure that he saith it If you say that it is written in Scripture besides that there is no such word How shall I know that all mens senses are not deceived in thinking that there is a Scripture or such a word in it If you say that the Council saith it How shall I know that there is a man or ever was a Council or a Book in the world The certainty of Conclusions presupposeth the certainty of premises and principles And the certainty of faith and Reasoning presupposeth the certainty of sense And if you deny this you deny all and in vain plead for the rest P. I must believe my senses where I have no reason to disbelieve them But when God contradicteth them I have reason to disbelieve them R. 1. You vainly suppose without proof that God contradicteth them So you may say I may or must believe the Scripture or an Apostle Prophet or Miracle except God contradict them But if God contradict them he contradicteth his own word or revelation For we have no other from him but by man And if he contradict himself or his own word how can I believe him or know which of his words it is that 's true when one is false so here His Natural Revelation is his first nearest and most satisfactory revelation And if that be said to be false by his supernatural revelation which shall I believe and why P. III. You cannot deny but God can deceive our senses And therefore if he can will you conclude against all faith if once he do it R. 1. This is not once but as oft as God is worshiped in your Mass and our Sacrament 2. God can deceive us without a Lie but not by a Lie Christ deceived the two Disciples Luke 24. by carrying it as if he would have gone further but not by saying that he would go further God can do that from which he knoweth that man will take occasion of deceit God can blind a mans eyes or destroy or corrupt his other senses he can present an object defectively with unmeet mediums distance site c. In this case he doth not give us a FALSE SIGN nor doth he by the Nature of the Revelation oblige any man to believe it Yea Nature saith that a man is not to Judge by a vitiated sense or an unmeet medium or a too distant object or where the due qualification of the sense or object are wanting Nature there tells us that we are there to suppose or suspect that we are uncapable of certainty But Nature obligeth us to believe sound senses about duly qualified objects and to take sense for sound when all the senses of all the men in the world agree and the object to be a duly qualified object of sense when all mens senses in the world so perceive it For we have no way but by sense to know what is an object of sense 3. The question is not what God can do by his power if he will but what God will do and can will to do in consistency with his perfection and just and merciful Government of the World And God in making us men whose Intellects are naturally to perceive things sensible by the means of the perception of sense doth naturally oblige man and necessitate him also to trust his senses in such perception And in Nature man hath no surer way of apprehension Therefore if you could prove that sense is ordinarily fallible and Gods revelations to it false yet man were not only allowed but necessitated to use and trust it as having no better surer way of apprehension As among many knaves or lyars I must most trust the honestest and most trusty when I have no better to trust If I am not sure that it is a Sun or Light that I see yet I am sure that I must take my perception of it as a Sun or Light as it is For God hath given me no better If I am not sure that my sight feeling taste c. are infallible yet I am sure that I am made of God to use them and that I have no better senses nor a better way to be certain of their proper objects so that I must take and trust them as they are or cease to be a man P. IV. Christs Body and Blood are not sensible objects and therefore sense is no proper judge whether they be present R. This is one of your gross kind of cheats to change the question We are not yet come to the
truly believed that Christ was the Messiah They erred that thought it lawful to eat things offered to Idols and yet they erred not in believing in Christ No two men in the world its like have the same degree of personal faith and knowledge as I oft said before But if our professed object of faith that is Gods word were false in one thing we could not be sure that it were true in any thing Yet here I told you before 1. That a man may be much surer that one part of Scripture is Gods word than another because some Copies are doubtful in the diverse Readings of some particular words or sentences and which of them that so differ is Gods word we oft know not But so much as we are sure is the word of God we are sure is true So if the Authority of some few books was once doubted of as 2 Pet. Jam. Jud. Heb. c. and yet be by any it followeth not that they doubt of the truth of any which they know to be the word of God 2. Or if any do hold that the Penmen might be left to their natural fallibility in some by historical circumstances or words it would not follow that one Article of the Gospel or Christian faith is doubtful which is plainly as the Kernel of it delivered in all the Scripture and also by infallible Universal Tradition by it self in the Sacrament Creed Lords Prayer and Decalogue And our case also much differeth from the Papists in this For We profess that our objective faith Gods word is Infallible and we are Infallible so far as we believe it But we confess that we are lyable to misunderstand some parts of it and so far are fallible as being imperfect But the Papists say that their Pope and Councils and Universal Practicers are personally Infallible so as not to be lyable to any misunderstanding of any Article of faith say some or Article of Catholick faith say others And so they make their own Act of Believing to be Commensurate and equally certain with Gods word of faith and therefore they allow you to question them in all if they err in one as pretending to a gift of never erring in any D. But is it not a great reason to incline us to them rather than to you when They only pretend to Infallibility and You confess that you are all fallible in your Belief R. This is to be the subject of our next Conference and therefore not now to be anticipated only I shall tell you that It is a meer noise of ambiguous words to deceive the heedless that cannot search out the meaning of them 1. We not only Pretend but Profess and prove that our Christian Religion is altogether Infallible For which end I have written divers Treatises my self 2. And we profess that all the mystical Church of Christ that is all sincere Christians do truly and Infallibly believe all that is Essential to Christianity and as much of the Integrals as they can know 3. And we profess that the Catholick Church-Visible that is All professors of Christianity in the world do profess all these Essentials of Christianity and are Infallible in this profession But we hold withall that there is no particular Church or Bishop no Synod or Council that is so Infallible but that 1. They that hold to the Essentials may misunderstand and err about some Integrals 2. And those persons have no Certainty that they shall not err by Heresie or Apostacy from the Essentials themselves So that the Church is Infallible because it is essentiated by believing an Infallible Word which who ever believeth not ceaseth to be of the Church not Gods Word infallible because the Church or any number of men believe it or say Its true For Truth is before Knowledge and Faith As Aristotle was a Philosopher because he understood and taught the doctrine of real Philosophy and not that doctrine called Physicks or Philosophy because that Aristotle knew or taught it But alas What work shall I shew you when I come to open their bewildring uncertainties D. But to deal freely with you methinks their way of measuring out the Necessaries in Faith and Religion according to mens various parts and opportunities seemeth to me more satisfactory than yours who fix upon certain points as the Baptismal Covenant as Essentials For there is great diversity of mens Capacities R. This cometh from confounding several Questions as if they were all one 1. It is one Question What is the Christian Religion 2. ☞ It is another Question Whether the Christian Religion be absolutely necessary to the salvation of all those to whom it was never competently revealed 3. And it is another Question Whether more than the Essentials of Christian Religion be not necessary to the salvation of many who have opportunity to know more Alas what work doth Confusion make in the world To the first It is evident that as Mahometanism is a thing which may be defined so much more may Christianity Who that writeth of the several Religions of the world Ethnick Jewish Mahometan and Christian do not take them to be distinguishable and discernable Especially when Christ hath summed up Christianity into a Covenant and given it us in express words and affixed a flat promise of salvation to the true Covenanters and the Church hath ever called our Baptism our Christening Is Christianity Nothing If Something Why may it not be defined and differenced from all false Religions And if so It hath its Essential Constitutive parts All this is plain to Children that will see 2. And then as to the second question it concerneth not our Controversie at all It is but Whether any Infidels may be saved Or any that are no Christians And if it could be proved that any are saved that are no Christians do you thereby prove that they are Christians or members of the Christian Church or that Christianity is not a Religion which may be defined 3. And as to the third question We are on all sides agreed in it That they that have more than the naked Essentials of Christianity revealed to them aptly are bound to believe more Yea it is hardly conceiveable that any one should know and believe the Essentials only and no more It is not Essential to the Christian Covenant or Christianity to know that the Name of Christs Mother was Mary or that Pontius Pilate was the man that condemned him And if an Ignorant man thought that his continuance in the Grave was four dayes I do not think that this would damn his soul to Hell Much less the not believing that Mary dyed a Virgin And yet it is not like that any man should come to the Essentials of Christianity by any such way as should acquaint him with no one of these or any point besides the said Essentials And yet it is certain for all this that he that truly receiveth the Essentials and is true to the Baptismal Covenant shall be
information of men So the sixth General Council condemned Honorius of Heresie by false Information and misunderstanding his Epistles p. 20. The Pope saith Suarez to a particular action belonging to humane Prudence hath no infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost As that such or such an excommunication is valid or that such or such a Kingdom is disposable by the Pope for such and such causes So far Veron who is most favourable to you in narrowing our faith R. Thus far you have resolved me but I must crave somewhat more Qu. I. Are there no Essential Constitutive parts of your Religion more necessary than the Integrals and Accidentals Have you no description for it but that It is Divine Revelation proposed by the Church The Doctrine of Sacrificing was a Divine Revelation to Adam and the difference of clean and unclean Beasts to Noah and the Jewish Law was Gods Revelation to Moses and them And yet I suppose Christianity is somewhat different from all these Is not Christianity your Religion Hath Christianity no Constitutive special Essence but only the Genus of Divine Revelation which is common to that with all other Divine Revelations And what if you add to a Prophet or Apostle Was Agabus Prophesie of Paul or Pauls of the event of the shipwrack c. essential to Christianity Hath Christianity no Essence Or is all Divine Revelation essential to it P. You take advantage of the disagreement of our Doctors You know that some few acknowledg distinct fundamentals and some deny the distinction in your sense And most of us say that no man can enumerate the things necessary to all but that it dependeth upon mens various capacities educations and means of knowing And in sum that no more is necessary to all to be explicitly believed but that Gods Revelations are true and that All are Gods Revelations which the Church proposeth as such You may take our judgement much from him that cometh nearest to you whom I have heard you much praise as most moderate and judicious viz. Dr. H. Holden Anal. fid l. 1. c 5. Lect. 2. p. 53. Divines disputing of the necessity of points to be believed do commonly tend this way to denote the Articles of things revealed the explicite and express belief whereof is as they opine altogether necessary to all Christians The resolution of which question is among them so doubtful and uncertain as that they are in this as ☞ they are in all things else distracted and divided into various Opinions which they that care for them may seek To me they are as Nothing while the Authors of them profess that they have nothing of Certainty Yea to one that meditateth the matter it self laying by all preoccupation it is most clearly manifest that the Resolution of this question is not only unprofitable that I say not pernicious as it is handled by Divines but also vain and impossible It is unprofitable because no good accrueth by it to souls ☞ It is pernicious while Divines for the most part assert that only One or Two Articles yea as some say no singular Article at all is necessary to be believed of all by an explicite faith For hence however the truth of the matter be the colder Christians taking occasion do little care to obtain that degree of Knowledge in the Mysteries of faith which they might commodiously and easily attain It is Impossible seeing it is Manifest that no particular Rule or Points to be believed or Number of Articles can in this Matter be given or assigned which shall be wholly common and necessary to all Christians For this dependeth on every individual mans natural capacity means of instruction and all the other circumstances of each mans life and disposition which are to each man so special that we can determine of nothing at all that is common to all But I handle the Necessity of points to be Believed in a far other sense For the Articles of the Christian faith which I now call necessary I do not at all understand to be such as all and every one must distinctly know or hold by explicite assent But I mean only such the belief of which is accounted universally by the whole Catholick Church so substantial and essential as that he that will deservedly be esteemed and truly be a member of it must needs adhere to them all at least Implicitely and Indirectly that is by believing whatsoever the holy and Universal Church doth Catholickly believe and teach as a Revealed Doctrine and Article of divine faith And therefore he is for that cause to be removed from its Communion and Society who shall pertinaciously and obstinately deny the least of them much more if he maintain the contrary while he knoweth and seeth that it is the Universal sentence of that Church that we must adhere to that as an Article of faith And in this sense I will henceforth use the word Necessity R. This might have been said in fewer and plainer words viz. That your Divines herein do commonly err and that perniciously and yet that indeed he is of the same mind viz. that It is impossible to name the Articles necessary to be believed explicitely of all because each mans divers capacity means and circumstances diversifie them to each But that only this one thing is explicitely to be believed That whatsoever the Holy and Universal Church doth Catholickly believe and teach as a Revealed Doctrine and Article of faith is true And therefore that no man must pertinaciously deny any thing which he knoweth the Church so holdeth So that nothing is necessarily to be believed actually and indeed but Gods and the Churches Veracity P. Another of ours that cometh as near you as most openeth this more fully Davenport alias Fr. a Sancta Clara De. Nat. Grat. p. 111 c. As to the Ignorance of those things that are of necessity of Means or End there is difference among the Doctors For Soto 4. d. 5. q. 5. l. de Nat. Grat. c. 12. Vega l. 6. c. 20. sup Trid. hold that now in the Law of Grace there is no more explicite faith required than in the Law of Nature Yea Vega ib. Gabriel 2. d. 21. q. 2. ar 3. 3. d. 21. q. 2. think that in the Law of Nature and in Cases in the Law of Grace some may be saved with only natural knowledge and that the habit of faith is not required Whom Horantius terms men of great name and will not accuse of heresie I would this great mans modesty were more frequent with modern Doctors Yea Alvarez de aux disp 56. with others seemeth to hold that to justification there is not at all required the knowledge of a supernatural object or the supernatural knowledge of the object Others hold That both to Grace and Glory is required an explicite belief of Christ Bonav 3. d. 25 c. Others that at least to salvation is an explicite belief of the Gospel or
things unseen and above sense And this is their meaning We see not God Christ Heaven Angels c. But faith hath alwaies Intelligible Evidence of Verity and as our Mr. R. Hooker saith can go no further than it hath such Evidence However I appeal to any that have not been disputed out of their wits whether If God would give us as full a sight of Heaven and Hell and Angels and Blessed souls as we have of the Bread and Wine before us and as full a Hearing of all that they say in justification of Holiness or Lamentation of sin and as full sensible acquaintance with the world we go to and our title to it as we have with this world I say whether this would not be more ascertaining and satisfactory to us and banish all doubts more than our present faith doth I love not to hear men lie as for God and talk and boast against their experience as if the interest of faith required it Things revealed to faith Are Certain and Infallible But that is because we have certain evidence 1. That God cannot lie 2. And that God revealed them and so that they are True But if we did see feel taste c. we should be more certain Else why is it said that we now know but enigmatically and as in a glass and as children but hereafter shall see as face to face and know as we are known when faith is done away as being more Imperfect than Intuition We have evidence to prove that the Revelation made to David Isaiah Jeremiah Peter Paul c. were of God and that their words are by us to be believed c. But to see hear taste feel c. would be a more quieting Assurance Therefore when all the sound senses of all men living perceive after consecration that there is Bread and Wine this Certainty is 1. in order antecedent to that of faith and 2. by Evidence more satisfying and assuring than that of meer faith as to a prophets Revelation And therefore to reject it on pretence of faith is a subversion of all natural methods of assurance and is but pretended I think by your selves The sixth Principle That except those Immediate Inspirations which none but the Inspired do Immediately and clearly perceive we have no Revelations from God but by signes which are created beings and have their several Natures and so may be called Physical though signifying Moral things And thus far our natural and supernatural Revelations agree R. Every being is either Vncreated which is God only or Created in a large sense that is Caused What God Revealed to Christ Peter Paul c. we have knowledge of but by signes In Scripture these signes are Words These words signifie partly the mind of God and the speakers or writers and partly the matter spoken or written When it is said that It is impossible for God to lye it can mean nothing to us but that it is impossible that God should make us a deceitful sign of his will The voice of an Angel Prophet Apostle a thousand Miracles c. are but signes of the matter and of Gods will And if God can ordinarily make false natural signes we are left unassured that he cannot make false signes by an Angel or a Prophet or a Miracle And so all faith is left uncertain P. Then you will make God a lyar or deceiver whenever any man is deceived by natural signes R. Not so For men may deceive themselves by taking those for signes of a thing which are none and so by misunderstanding them And the Devil and bad men may promote this deceit But whenever God giveth man so plain a sign of the Matter and his Will as that no errour of an unsound sense an unqualified object a culpable or diseased fantasie or Intellect interveneth then if we are deceived it can be none but God that doth deceive us which cannot be because he cannot lye And as it is an unresistible argument against the Dominican doctrine of Physical Predetermination as absolutely necessary to all acts of natural or free agents that If God physically predetermine every lyar to ivery lye that is mentally conceived or uttered then we have no certainty but he might do so by the Prophets and Apostles so is it as good an argument against Papists that if he ordinarily deceive the senses of all sound men by a false appearance of things seeming sensible he may do so also by the audible or legible words of a prophet The seventh Principle That he that will confute sense and prove that we should not Judge according to its perceptions must prove it by some more certain evidence that contradicteth it R. I suppose you will not question this P. No The word or Revelation of God is a more certain evidence R. How know you that there is any word of God but by your senses P. But yet by sense I may get a certainty which is above that of things sensible As I know by the world that there is a God by a certainty above that of sense R. 1. If that were so yet if things sensible be your media you destroy your Conclusion by denying them and undermine your own foundation 2. But it is not true The knowledge of the Conclusion can be no stronger than that of the principles even of the weaker of them If you are in any uncertainty whether there be Sun Moon Heaven Earth Man Beast Heat Cold or any Created sensible being you must needs be in as much doubt whether there be a God that made them The eighth Principle That Believing or Assenting is Intellection of the Truth of something revealed and therefore must have Intelligible Evidence of Truth in the thing believed R. I know that Assiance or Trust as it is the act of the Will reposing it self quietly on the Believed fidelity of God is not Intellection But the Assenting act is an Intellection or an Act of Knowledge of a Verity not as Science is narrowly confined to principles but as Knowledge is taken in genere for notitia So to believe is no other than to know that this is true because God saith it Joh. 6.69 We believe and are sure that thou art that Christ c. Joh. 3.2 We know that thou art a Teacher come from God for no man could do such works c. Joh. 21.24 We know that his testimony is true See Rom. 7.14 8.28 2 Cor. 5.1 We know that if this earthly house c. 1 Tim. 1.8 1 Joh. 3.2 Joh. 8.28 32. 1 Cor. 15.58 We know that our Labour is not in vain c. Therefore your denying the certainty where the evidence is most notorious and telling men of Meriting if they will but believe your Church without any Evidence of certainty is a meer cheat The ninth Principle That Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Saviour of the World and that Christianity is the true Religion and Gods appointed sufficient way to Heaven
sense but all The eye seeth Bread and Wine The hand and mouth feel it The palate tasteth it The smelling sense smelleth the Wine yea and the ear heareth it poured out 3. It is in due quantity and not an undiscernable Atome 4. It is near the sense and neither by too much distance or nearness made insensible 5. It hath a due abode and is not made insensible by hasty passing by 6. The air and light and all necessary media of perception are present So that there is nothing wanting to the sensibility of the object P. And how do you prove all or any of these For ought you know the media may be undue the magnitude site distance abode may not be what they seem to be and so you prove not what you say R. All that I am now saying is that All men of sound sense in the world have these immediate clear perceptions The Intellect by sense perceiveth the object as quantitative as near c. This you dare not deny So that if this perception be false and here be no Bread and Wine then Sense or the Intellect discerning by the means of sense is deceived P. I say that the Senses or Intellects perception are deceived R. I prove that they are not deceived or at least that this kind of perception is the most certain that man on earth is capable of and is to be trusted to by all men and disbelieved or contradicted by none Reason I. Because that humane nature is so formed that the Intellect hath no other way of perceiving things sensible but as they are first perceived by the sense and by it transmitted to the Intellect or made its objects And if about Spirits it hold not that There is nothing in the Intellect which was not first in the sense yet about things sensible it doth undenyably hold And also that the Intellect of it self is not free to perceive things sensible otherwise than as they are sensed or not to perceive them but is naturally necessitated to perceive them So that it is a contradiction for a man to be a man consisting of a reasonable soul with sensitive faculties and a body and yet not to be formed to judge of things sensible as sense perceiveth them P. Then mad men cease to be men if they judge otherwise R. Mad men are your fittest presidents But 1. I told you how mans nature is made by God to judge of things I told you not that this nature may not be vitiated and hindered from right action Did I ever say that the eye may not be blinded or the understanding distracted Blind men and mad men judge not according to the tendency of Nature and therefore mis-judge The Connexion of the Intellect to the sense is essential to man as man but so is not the soundness or right exercise of his faculties Reason II. Hence I argue that sensation and the understandings perception thereby is the first perception of mans soul and all that follow are but the rational improvements of it and therefore ever presuppose it The natural order of the souls apprehensions is this beyond all controversie First Sense perceiveth things sensible and the Imagination the Images of them Next the Vnderstanding by a simple perception conceiveth of them as it findeth them in the imagination Thirdly then by this Thinking or Knowing we perceive also our own Act that we do so Think or Know. And then Fourthly We compound our conceptions and form organical notions and spin out conclusions from what we first perceive Now if the first perceptions be uncertain or false it must needs follow that all those following thoughts and reasonings which do but improve them are at least as uncertain and false if not more So that there can be no more certainty in any of the Conclusions as such than there is in the premises and principles Therefore if mans first and most natural necessary perceptions are false all the following actions or reasonings of his mind must be no better All being finally resolved into these perceptions by sense there is no Truth or Certainty in mans mind at all if there be none in these Reason III. Else you would infer that God is not at all to be Believed and that there is no such thing as Divine Faith and Religion in Certainty in the world And so you would bring in by unavoidable consequence far worse Impiety and Irreligiousness than Mahomet or Julian or any Idolaters that I hear of on the earth For you directly will overthrow the Divine Veracity or Truth of Gods Revelations which is the Formal Object of Faith without which it is no Faith P. A heavy charge if you can make it good R. To make it good do but first observe 1. That Gods Essential Will or mind is not in it self immediately seen by man but known only by some Revelation 2. That this Revelation is nothing but some SIGNES For there is nothing in the Universe of Beings but GOD and CREATURES and the ACTS or Works of Creatures Now it is not Gods own Essence which is the Revelation in question Therefore it must be either A Creature or work of God or an Act or Work of a Creature As the voice on Mount Sinai and that of Christ at his baptism and transfiguration and the written Tables of Stone c. were either the works of God immediately and so created Signs of his mind or else the Acts of Angels and so Imperate Signs of his mind Nor it is not the ordinariness or extraordinariness of the way of making these signs which maketh them currant and true or credible For if God can make a Natural false sign he can make a supernatural false one for ought any mortal man can prove Only all the question is Whether it be indeed a sign of the mind and will of God or not Now the works of Nature are Gods Natural Signs and his Natural objective Light and Law as the perception of them is the Subjective or Active Light and Law of Nature Something of God these Natural signs do signifie or reveal plainly and some things darkly And so it is with supernatural signs As the written Tables the voice of an Angel the words of an inspired Prophet or Apostle c. Now there is no other way for God to speak or reveal falsly could he do it but 1. Either to make a false sign naturally or supernaturally or 2. To determine mans sense or mind to a false perception And if God can do this naturally why not supernaturally Nay à fortiore mark how you teach the Infidel to inferr 1. Gods Natural Revelations are Common and his supernatural rare 2. Gods Natural Revelations are most certainly his own Acts But how far a Voice or Book from a Spirit may be the Act of that Spirit or Angel as a free Agent and how far that Agent is fallible or defectible we could not tell if we had not farther Evidence of Gods owning it Therefore
if you make Gods own ordinary Natural Revelations or significations to be false how will you be able to disprove the Infidel about the rest 3. And then note that our Case is yet lower and plainer than all this For if the very Being of the Creatures which is the Matter of these Signs be uncertain to us and all our senses and minds deceived about it then we have no place for enquiry Whether this Creature be any sign of the mind of God As if the hearing of all men was deceived that thought they heard that voice This is my Beloved Son or Pauls that thought he heard Christ speak to him Saul Saul c. or if their Eyes and Intellects were deceived that thought they saw Christ and his miracles or that think now that they read the Bible and indeed there be no such thing as a Bible no such words c. then there is no room to enquire what they signifie For nothing hath no signification Truth and Goodness are affections or modes of Being And if we cannot by all our sound senses know the Being of things we can much less know that they are True or Good Therefore all knowledge and all faith and all Religion is overthrown by your denyal of the truth of our Senses and Intellects perception of things sensible Reason IV. And by this means you are not capable of being disputed with nor any Controversie between you and any others in the world of being decided while you deny sense For then you agree not with mankind in any one common principle And they that agree in nothing can dispute of nothing For this is the first principle Est vel non est is first to be agreed on before we can dispute any farther of a substance What will you do to confute an adversary but drive him to deny a certain principle And can you drive him to deny a lower fundamental Principle than the Being of a substance perceived by sense yea by all the sound senses of all men in the world Reason V. Yea it is specially to be noted that our difference is not only about the species of a sensible substance but about the very substance it self in genere Whether all our senses perceive any substance at all or not Suppose the question were Whether it be water or not which all mens senses see in Rivers If a Papist would deny it to be water doubtless he denyed the agreeing judgement of all mens Intellect by sense But if he should also say It is no substance which we call water or earth This were to deny the first Principle and most fundamental perception in nature Now that this is your case is undenyable For 1. You profess that Christs Body and Blood are not sensible there That it is not the quantity shape number colour smell weight c. of Christs Body and Blood which we perceive and that these Accidents are not the Accidents of Christ 2. And you believe that the Bread and Wine is gone that is changed into the body and blood of Christ so that no part of their substance matter or form is left And you put no third substance under these Accidents in the stead So that you maintain that it is the quantity of nothing the figure of nothing the colour the weight the scituation the smell the number c. of nothing which all mens Intellects by sense perceive So that the Controversie is Whether it be any substance at all which by those accidents we perceive And when we see handle taste smell it you believe or say you believe that it is none neither Bread or Wine or any other Now if by sense we cannot be sure of the very Being of a substance we can be sure of nothing in the world Reason VI. Yea it is to be noted that though Brutes have no Intellects yet their Sense and Imagination herein wholly agreeth with the common perception of man A Dog or a Mouse will eat the bread as common bread and a Swine will drink the Wine as common Wine and therefore have the same perception of it as of common bread and wine And so their senses must be all deceived as well as mans And Brutes have as accurate perfect senses as men have and some much more And meer natural operations are more certain and constant as we see by the worlds experience than meer Reason and Argumentation Birds and Beasts are constant in their perceptions and course of action being not left to the power of Mutable free-will Reason VII You hereby quite overthrow your own foundation which is fetcht from the Concord of all your party which you call all the Church You think that a General Council could not agree to any thing aâ— an Article of faith if it were not such when it is buâ— the Major Vote that agree You say that Traditioâ— is Infallible because All the Church agreeth in iâ— when it is perhaps but your Sect which is a Minoâ— part But do you not overthrow all this when yoâ— profess that All the senses of all the sound men in thâ— world and all the simple perceptions of their Intellectâ— by sense do agree that there is substance yea dâ— specie Bread and Wine after the Consecration No onâ— mans perception by sense disagreed in this from thâ— institution of the Sacrament to this day that can be proved or the least probability of it given And iâ— this Concord be no proof much less is yours For 1. The Intellect in Reasoning is more fallible than iâ— its Immediate perception of things sensed or perceived by sense 2. Yours is but the Consent of some men but ours is the Consent of all mankind Yours among your selves hath oft in Councils a Minor part of dissenters who must be overvoted by the rest But our Case hath never one dissenting sense or perception Reason VIII By this denyal of sense you overthrow the foundations of Humane Converse How can men make any sure Contracts or perform any duty on a sure ground if the Concordant senses of all the world be false Parents cannot be sure which are their own Children nor Children which are their own Parents Husbands cannot certainly know their own Wives from their neighbours No Subjects can certainly know their own Prince No man can be sure whether he buy or sell receive money or pay it c. No man can be sure that there is a Pope or Priest or man in the world Reason IX You seem to me to Blaspheme God and to make him the greatest Deceiver of mankind even in his holy Worship Whereas God cannot lye It is impossible And the Devil is the Father of lyes And you make God to tell all the world as plainly as if words told them even by demonstration to their sight smell feeling taste that here is Bread and Wine when there is none yea that it is at least some substance which they perceive when it is none at all Reason X. You thus fain
saved whatsoever else he want But it is as true that he that Receiveth the Essentials will from the same principles and obligations receive more when it is aptly notified to him And he that truly Covenanteth will honestly keep the Covenant he maketh which bindeth him still to learn of Christ But if any man be saved without the Essentials he must be saved without Christianity D. But you know that they distinguish of faith Explicite and Implicite He may be Implicitely a Christian that believeth not the Essentials Explicitely as long as he believeth that which would infer them if they were made known to him to be indeed the Word of God R. Thus do Words abuse and cheat the ignorant Could you but read their own Dr. Holden before cited in his Analys fid you would find this distinction justly rendred by him shameful and ridiculous according to their common sense and use of it and the truer sense delivered and vindicated An Implicite faith or Knowledge we confess to be true as it is opposed to 1. A distinct or 2. To a well-expressed faith or Knowledge For it is Implicite ☞ 1. As to the Object when a man knoweth the whole matter but not by distinct parts As a man may know a Cup of water and not know how many drops or drams it is or he may know a sentence and not know how many letters are in it 2. Or it is Implicite as to the Act when it is yet but a crude imperfect conception and the thing is really known but not the Logical notions or Grammatical names either the verba oris or mentis by which it should be expressed So that the man cannot notifie his knowledge to another These two are called Implicite the first signifieth Confused and General Knowledge and the other Imperfect and undigested But to call that Implicite faith or knowledge which extendeth only to some Principles and not to the Conclusions themselves is 1. To Call No-knowledge and faith by the name of knowledge and faith 2. And by their application to confound the World and the Church and to make all the Infidels and Heathens to be Christians and every Fool a Philosopher For 1. All men of Reason know these two Principles who own a God 1. That God is not a lyer but all his Word is True 2. That all the Truths in the world are God's some way or other revealed by him Therefore if they knew that the Gospel were Gods word they would believe it or if they knew it to be one of those Truths that are in the world they would take it to be of God And thus all Infidels and Turks and Pagans may by such abuse be called Implicite Christians But why then do the Papists burn the Protestants when if their Religion were true we are all Implicitely Papists For we believe 1. That all Divine Revelations are True 2. And that all those are Infallible whom God hath promised to make Infallible 3. And that all those must be believed and obeyed whom God hath commanded us to believe and obey 4. And that we must not forsake that Church which God hath commanded us to adhere to 5. And that all our Lawful Pastors must be reverenced and submitted to 6. And all their lawful Precepts obeyed 7. And all Gods Sacraments holily used 8. And all Traditions from the Apostles to the Churches received with many more such Only we know not that the Pope is our Pastor or that his Councils are the Church or have a promise of Infallibility and so of the rest And yet we must burn for it if they can procure it And yet he is a true believer Implicitely who believeth not the Essentials of Christianity But the Design which is predominant here is too visible when this Implicite faith cometh to be described For it is not a Belief in God or in Christ only that will serve the turn but it must be a belief in the Church and their Church and their Pope too or else it will not do The Implicite faith is the explicite belief of these three Articles 1. All Gods Word is true 2. All that is Gods Word which the Church tells us is Gods Word 3. The Pope and his Council and Subjects are this Church And yet this man must be supposed if he know no more per impossibile not to know that there is a Christ or who he is as to his Person or Office or what he hath done or will do for us And yet that he hath a Vicar and a Church Or else they may know Christ and Christianity before they know that there is any Pope or Church and then the Pope hath lost the Game D. But if Popery be so senseless a thing as you make it how come so great a number of persons of all ranks and qualities Kings Nobles Learned men and Religiously-disposed persons to embrace it Have not they souls to save or lose as well as you and do they not lay all their hopes of Heaven upon it and can such persons and so many be so mad and senseless R. Do we need thus to ramble round about as if we would doubt of the thing till we know the Causes of it when we see and they all confess that they deny all our senses Will you not believe that there is a Sun till you know what it is made of Or whether the Sea ebb and flow till you know the Causes of it I pray you tell me Q. 1. Do you think that the Mahometan's is not a very foolish Religion and their foundation the pretended Mission of their Prophet without any shew of truth and his Alcoran if ever you read it a heap of Non-sense and Confusion D. Yes I think it deserveth no better thoughts R. And do you not know that though it arose not till about six hundred years after Christ much more of the world is Mahometan than Christian And are there not far Greater Emperours and Princes Mahometans than any that are Christians And have not all these souls to save or lose And do they not all venture their souls upon that Religion Why then is not your argument here as good for Mahometanism as for Popery D. Though the Emperours of Constantinople the Great Mogul the Persian Tartarian Mahometans c. be all Great as to their vast Dominions yet they are barbarous and unlearned in comparison of the Papists R. 1. It is not because they have not as much wit as we but because they think that our laborious wordy kind of learning is an abuse of wit and against true Policy ludicrously or contentiously diverting mens minds and time from those employments which they think more manly and profitable to the Common-wealth Though no doubt but they do err more unmanly on that extream But I further ask you Q. 2. Do you not think that the Common Religion of the Heathens is very unworthy for any wise man to venture his soul upon If you have but read
your practice take God for your God even for your All and Christ for your Teacher King and Saviour and the Holy Ghost for your Sanctifier turning in heart and life from the Devil the world and the sinful pleasures of the flesh This is the question which I desire you to answer But I will prevent your answer lest you mistake my purpose and think I make my self your Confessour and I will tell you why I ask the question Either you have thus Kept your Baptismal Vow by a Godly life or else you have broken it by worldliness and sensuality c. If you have kept it and are a truly Godly person you have resolved your own doubt and absolutely confuted Popery already For no honest man and true Christian can possibly turn Papist without gross contradiction D. How prove you that R. Most easily I pray you do but mark 1. It is their principal Doctrine that the Pope is the Head of the Universal Church on earth and that the Church subjected to him is the Universal Church and that out of that Church there is no salvation and that no one is a true member of Christ and his Church who is not a subject of the Pope 2. And they all confess that every one shall be saved that is a true Christian and keepeth his Baptismal Covenant and that Loveth God above all So that they must needs hold that none in the world but Papists do truly Love God keep that Covenant and are true Christians Now if you can know that you have the true Love of God and are true to your Baptism you must needs confess that Popery is false which saith that none Love God above all but Papists D. But what if I have not Loved God and obeyed him above my flesh R. I 'le tell you what followeth 1. It is no wonder if you forsake the Protestants Religion who never truly entertained it If your Heart and Life were not devoted unfeignedly to God you were no true Christian nor indeed had any true Religion at all And he that hath no Religion turneth from none which he truly had If you were never a true Christian you were never a true Protestant And then what wonder if you turn Papist For you have no experimental Knowledge of that Religion which you seem to forsake 2. And how could you expect better but that God should penally forsake you and give you over to believe deceits if you have dealt so falsly and deceitfully with him as to live to the world and flesh which you renounced and neglect that God and Saviour and sanctifier to whom you were so solemnly devoted And if you have been so treacherous and unwise as to prefer a bruitish transitory pleasure before Gods Love and the Joyes of Heaven 3. And what honour is it to the Church of Rome that none but Infidels and false-hearted hypocrites and perfidious breakers of their Covenant with God did ever turn to them If you turn Papist you confess that you were a wicked hypocrite before 4. But the chief thing which I would tell you is that turn up and down as oft as you will to this Church or that Church to this side or that side you will never be saved unless you become a holy serious mortified Christian As long as you love pleasures wealth and honour more than God and Holiness and Heaven you shall never be saved whether you be Papist or a professed Protestant It would make the heart of a Christian ake to see so many thousands cheated by the Devil to take this opinion or that opinion called the true faith and this side or that side called the true Church to be to them instead of a holy heavenly heart and life And how many thousands especially Papists that are truly of no Religion do dispute and plot and disquiet the world as for Religion To hear a prophane man swear that his Religion is right or that man to think to be saved for being of the true Church and faith whose heart was never set on Heaven but liveth in drunkenness lying idleness fornication and thinketh that the Priests absolution sets all right again Without true Holiness no man shall be saved what Church soever he joyn with and with it no man shall be damned For God cannot hate them that have his nature and Image D. Well sir I came not to dispute with you but to desire you to meet a Roman Catholick Priest that I may hear you both together R. I have the greater hopes of you because you have so much regard of your soul as to be willing to hear what can be said For most that turn to them never come to an impartial tryal but rashly follow the deceiver or stay till they are secretly hardened by false insinuations and then take on them to desire to hear both when they are first resolved to be gone But you must tell me what is the question that you desire should be disputed D. I would know whether the Papists or the Protestants be the True and safe Religion R. I undertake to give you that plain undenyable evidence for your resolution which should fully satisfie any reasonable man at least that professeth himself a Christian so be it you will perform these reasonable conditions 1. That you will be impartially willing to know the truth 2. That you will honestly resolve to Live according to it when you know it and to be True to the True Religion 3. That you will bring such a man to confer with me who will yield to the Reasonable Conditions of a disputant such as your Doubt and the nature of the matter doth notoriously require and not a Knave and studied Deceiver who will set himself purposely to hide the truth D. These conditions are so reasonable that I must not deny them CHAP. II. The Conditions of the Conference between a P. and R. and D. R. SIR I am desired by this person who is brought by some of you to doubt of our Religion to debate this Case with you in order to his satisfaction Whether the Papists or the Protestants be the True and Safe Religion P. That is too large a Question We cannot dispute of all our Religion at once I will begin with you about some one of the Articles of the Church of England or the Visibility of your Church in all Ages or the Resolution of your faith c. And this I will do only on these conditions 1. That you bring some express Text of Scripture which without your Interpretation Reasonings or Consequences doth assert that Article of yours which I shall accuse or contradict any Article of our faith which shall be questioned 2. Or if you will go from the express words to Reasoning that we keep to the strictest Rules of Logick and that you use nothing but Syllogism and that all be done in writing and not by word of mouth R. Neighbour D. you promised me to bring another kind of Disputant
TRUE CANONICAL SCRIPTURES Here note 1. That our Religion hath its Essential parts And its Integral parts and Accidentals I. The Essentials of our Religion are contained in the Baptismal Covenant which is expounded in the CREED the LORDS PRAYER and the DECALOGUE as delivered and expounded by Christ and the Law of Nature II. Our Entire Religion in the Essentials Integrals and needful Accidentals is contained wholly in the Law of Nature and the Canonical Scriptures The Essentials are delivered down to us two wayes 1. In Scripture with the rest 2. By the sure tradition of the Vniversality of Christians in actual Baptizings and the daily profession of Christianity This is all the Protestants Religion If you fasten any other on us we deny it we own no other And none know What is my Religion that is What I take for the Rule of my holy Faith Love and Life so well as my self P. This is meer craft you will make that only which is past controversie among us to be Your Religion that so your Religion may be past controversie too R. It is such Craft as containeth that naked truth which we trust all our own salvation on I say that I have no other Religion And if you know better than I disprove me P. I disprove you three wayes I. Because the Name Protestant signifieth no such Religion but somewhat else lately taken up II. Because the Angustane Confession the thirty nine Articles and such like are by your selves called The Articles of your Religion III. Because all your Writings declare that besides these you hold all those controverted points which are contrary to that which you call Popery R. I pray you mark D. that he would perswade you that he knoweth my Religion better than I do my self What if I should pretend the like as to his Religion Were I to be believed P. No but if you have an odd Religion of your own that proveth it not to be the Protestant Religion R. Remember D. that I come not hither to perswade you to any other Religion than this which I have mentioned Let him talk as long as he will what is other mens opinions I perswade you to nothing but this to take Gods Law of Nature and the Scripture for your Religion Either this is Right or Wrong If Right fix here and I have done If Wrong let that be disputed But yet I open to you all his three deceits I. The name Protestant doth not signifie our Religion but our Protesting against the Papists corruptions and additions I have no Religion but Christianity I am a Christian and that signifieth all my Religion I am a Catholick Christian that is of the Common Christian Faith and Church and not of any heretical dividing Sect And I am a Reformed Protestant Christian because I renounce Popery Therefore I rather say The Protestants than the Protestant Religion As if I were among Lepers If I say I am no Leper that signifieth not my Essence But if I say I am a Man and I am not a Leper I speak my Nature and my freedom from that disease So if I say I am a Christian Protestant I mean only that I am a Christian and no Papist or renouncing Popery as by the word Catholick I renounce all Sects and Schisms I tell you This is my meaning when I say I am a Protestant and can you tell my meaning better than my self II. And as to what he saith of the thirty nine Articles and other Church Confessions I answer None of these are our Religion in the sense now in question that is They are not taken by us to be the Divine Revealed-Rule of our Faith Love and Life which is our Religion now disputed of And that this is so I prove to you past all question For 1. Else should we have as many Religions as we have Church Confessions and should alter our Religion as oft as we alter our Confessions and our Religion should be as New as those Confessions All which the Protestants abhor 2. All those very Confessions themselves do assert that Gods Word is our only Religion and all mens Writings and Decrees are lyable to mistakes To pass by all the rest these are the words of our sixth Article Holy Scripture containeth all things Necessary to salvation so that whatsoever is not read therein nor may be proved thereby is not to be required of any man that it should be believed as an Article of faith or be thought Requisite or necessary to salvation What would you have more plain and full And in the Book of Ordination it is askt Are you perswaded that the Holy Scriptures contain sufficiently all doctrine required of necessity for eternal salvation through faith in Jesus Christ And are you determined out of the said Scriptures to instruct the people committed to your charge and to teach Nothing as required of necessity to eternal salvation but that which you shall be perswaded may be concluded and proved by the Scripture Is not this plain P. Why then do you call the thirty nine Articles the Articles of your Religion And what is their use And why are all required to subscribe them R. 1. Their Use is to signifie how the Conjunct Pastors who use them do understand the Holy Scriptures in those points And that partly for the satisfaction of all forreign Churches who may hear us accused of Heresie or Error and partly to be a hedge to the Doctrine of young Preachers to keep them from vending mistakes in the Churches and also to try the soundness of their understandings 2. The Confessions and Articles and Catechisms are our Religion as the Writings of Perron Bellarmine Suarez c. or many of these agreeing are the Roman Religion They are not the Divine Revelation and Rule of faith and practice to us But they are the expression of our own conceptions of the sense of several chief matters in that Rule or Revelation So that they are the Expression of our faith or Religion taken subjectively for acts and habits and not our objective Rule it self Our Sermons and Prayers are our Religion in this sense that is The Expression of our own Religious Conceptions And so are your Sermons and your Writings also to you But if this were our Rule of Faith and Life and so our Divine Objective Religion then we should be of as many Religions as we are several persons For every one hath his several Expressions And every new Sermon or Book or Prayer would be a new part of Religion And so with you also So that this doubt is past all doubt Our Confessions are but the expressions of our personal belief and not our Rule of Faith III. And as to your third pretence that we have other Articles as opposite to Popery I answer Our Religion as a Rule of Faith and Worship is one thing And our Rejecting all Corruptions and Additions is another E. g. My Religion is that our God is only the true God
including Godliness which is its final part R. By Christianity I mean both our Believing Loving and obeying Christ as the way to the Father and our Believing Loving and Obeying God our Father as the end of Christs Mediation The Knowledge of God and the Mediator being Eternal Life Joh. 17.3 And as Taking a man for my Physicion is taking him by his medicines to help me to my health and so Health is finally included so taking Christ for my Saviour is to take him by faith to be the means of bringing me to the Love of God and to Glory And so I include Godliness in Christianity and the Law of Nature in the Law of Grace P. We are agreed on the truth of this but not of the medium by which it must be made known to us R. At the present I ask no more than that we agree in Christianity as the true and sufficient Religion and way to life The tenth Principle That Baptizing is our Christening And that all that are truly Baptized are Christians and members of the visible Church untill they Apostatize or are justly excommunicate at least P. I grant you all this as a common Principle with Christians R. Then you grant us 1. That our Religion is the True Religion of Gods appointment sufficient to salvation For it is Christianity which you confessed to be such 2. You grant that we are baptized into the true Catholick Church which is the body of Christ The eleventh Principle That all that are truly Baptized have the pardon of all their sins and have present right to salvation if they so die R. I mean that they that are Internally true Consenters to the baptismal Covenant and are baptized have all these benefits of Baptism And that Infants have them as rightly dedicated to God and baptized Do not you Consent to this P. Yes you know we do R. Then you fully grant that all among the Protestants who in Infancy or at age are truly baptized are in a state of salvation Why then would you make people believe that there is no salvation in our Churches when you grant the right to all that are Baptized P. But you are not Baptized by lawful Ministers R. Take heed what you say Your party holdeth that even Schismaticks and Hereticks Baptism is valid if they have all that is essential to Baptizing in the doing of it Yea that a lay mans or womans baptizing is valid If you deny it I will shame you by producing the common consent of your Doctors and your censure of Cyprian and making the contrary doctrine to be a Heresie P. But you have not all that is essential to Baptism because you are not intentionally Baptized into the true Catholick Roman Church For while you are not subject to the Pope you are not baptized into the Church and therefore Bellarmine sheweth that indirectly we are obliged to the Pope by baptism which you intend not R. Come come strive not against your knowledge 1. If our Baptism have not all that is essential why do you never rebaptize Protestants when they turn to you Do you not find that you condemn your selves 2. Why do not you your selves put the name of the Pope into your words of baptism 3. Doth your Tradition tell you that the ancient Churches did baptize men into a subjection to the Pope 4. Did any of the Primitive Christians baptize men into the name or subjection of Peter or any Apostle 5. Doth not Paul expresly renounce it as to himself and Peter 1 Cor. 1.12 13 14 15. Every one of you saith I am of Paul and I of Apollo and I of Cephas and I of Christ Is Christ divided Was Paul Crucified for you or were ye baptized in the name of Paul c. 6. Did not Christ himself tell us all that was Essential to baptism in his institution Matth. 28 without making any mention of Peter or the Pope P. I cannot deny but our doctrine inferreth that all that are baptized among you have a true Sacrament but not the Benefit of it and so are not in a state of pardon and salvation Or at least when you come to age by refusing the Pope you turn Hereticks and lose it R. I know some of your divided writers say that we have Sacramentum but not Rem Sacramenti But 1. You say that a Character is imprinted by Baptism and all sin done away and the person in a state of life unless he come feignedly which you will not charge on Infants nor can you prove it by those of the Anabaptists themselves that are baptized at age And saith Aquinas when the fiction ceaseth the fruits of baptism are obtained 2. And it will be long ere you will prove that to be baptized into the name of the Trinity is uneffectual if we leave out the Pope 3. And you will hardly make a man understand what you mean by the validity of the Baptism of Hereticks and Schismaticks if it neither take the Baptized into the true Visible Church nor the invisible or a state of saving grace And as to Infants losing it as you say at age by Heresie 1. Will you save all the Anabaptists that are baptized at age If their baptism put them into a state of salvation and they continue just of the same faith and mind that they were baptized in sure that faith which put them in a state of salvation will keep them in it or not be damning through defectiveness to morrow which made them heirs of Heaven to day But you cannot make your doctrines hang together 2. And they that are Baptized in Infancy are baptized into the same faith which they continue in at age The Minister intendeth no other The Parents Sponsors c. intend no other And will that prove defective even to Salvation after which was saving then 3. If Baptism make us Christians and if Christianity be the true Religion sufficient in suo genere to salvation then we that continue in the Christianity which we were baptized into by your confession continue in the true saving Religion And this is all our Religion P. It is not every one that owneth Christianity that shall be saved Hereticks own it in general and yet contradict it by their Heresies R. It is every one that truly owneth Christianity in mind and will that shall be saved else Christianity were not a saving sufficient Religion The question is not whether objective Christianity or faith be sufficient to save him that believeth not or is not subjectively a Christian nor whether the doctrine of faith be sufficient in omni genere But whether it be a sufficient doctrine or obâ—ective faith in suo genere If a Heretick deny any essential part of it he believeth not that which he really understandingly and prevalently denyeth It is but the Name of Christianity and not the Thing which he owneth who disowneth any of the essence Our question is now whether our professed objective Faith be true and sufficient
When you come to prove us heretical denyers of any of its essence we will give you a sufficient answer The twelfth Principle That the Essence of our Religion or Christianity as Active and Saving is Faith that worketh by Love Or such a Belief in God the Father Son and Holy Ghost as is accompanied with a true devoting of our selves to him by Love and willingness to obey his Laws so far as we know them in opposition to the temptations of the world the flesh and the Devil And he that is truly such shall be saved P. I grant that he that truly Loveth God shall be saved But a Protestant cannot truly love God because he hath not true faith R. Do you not agree and confess then that If any Protestants do truly Love God and are sincerely willing to obey his will and to know it that they may obey it such are of the true Religion and shall be saved and that popery which denyeth their salvation is false P. If your false supposition were true these false consequents would be true But you are all deceived when you think that you sincerely Love God and are willing to know and do his will R. 1. Let all Protestants note this first that you grant that none but ☞ falshearted Hypocrites that are not what they profess to be and Love not God nor would obey him should turn Papists 2. And if a man cannot know his own Mind and Will what he Loveth and what he is willing of no not about his End and greatest concernments how can he know when he Believeth aright Why do you trouble the world thus with your noise about Believing the Proposals of your Church if a man cannot know whether he believe or not ☞ And he that cannot know what he Willeth Chooseth or Loveth can no more know what he believeth For the Acts of the Will are more plenary and easily perceived And do all Papists know their own Hearts or Minds but no Protestants What would you expect but indignation and derision by such arguing as this if you will go about the world and tell men You none of you know your own Minds and wills but we know them You think you Love God and are willing to obey him but you are all mistaken it is not so with you but you must believe our Pope and his Council and then you may know your own minds and hearts They that believe you on these rates deserve the deceit of believing you and punish themselves The thirteenth Principle That when Christ described all the Essence of Christianity by our Believing in and being baptized into the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost the Apostles and first Pastors of the Churches instructed people to understand the meaning of these three Articles And the ancient Creed called the Apostles is the exposition of them as to Belief And that this Creed was of old the symbol of the true faith by which men were supposed sufficiently qualified for baptism and distinguished from Hereticks which after was enlarged by occasion of heresies to the Nicene and Constantinopolitane Creed To which that called Athanasius's was added as a fuller explication of the doctrine of the Trinity And he that believed all these was taken for one of the true Christian Religion which was sufficient in suo genere to salvation P. All that was then Necessary to be explicitely believed necessitate medii was expressed in the Creeds if not more But not all that is now necessary when the Church hath proposed more R. 1. Some of you say no more is necessary ut medium but to believe that God is and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him Others say that the chief articles of the Creed also are commonly necessary And in your discord we lay no great weight on your Opinions 2. But is not Christianity the same Thing now as it was at the beginning Is Baptism altered Hath not a Christian now the same definition as then Are not Christs promises and the Conditions the same Shall not he that was a Christian then be saved if he were now alive May not we be Christians and saved by the same Constitutive Causes which made men Christians and saved them in the primitive Churches Subvert not Christianity and confound not the Church and cheat not poor souls by labouring to hide the essence of Christianity and such plain important truths You cannot deny our faith to be true without condemning the ancient Church and Christianity it self While we aloud profess that the Christian faith explained in all the ancient Creeds is the faith which we own in its Essentials explicated The fourteenth Principle That the Books which the Protestants commonly receive as Canonical Scriptures are in the agreeing Original Copies as to the very words and in true Translations as to the sence the most true Infallible word of God R. I grant that where the Copies disagree by various Readings we are no more sure that any of them is the word of God than we are sure that such a Copy is righter than all that differ from it But as long as the essence of Christianity on which our Salvation is laid is in the Covenant of Grace explained in Credondis in the Creed and in Petendis in the Lords Prayer and in Agendis in the Decalogue as explained by Christ And no one Duty or material doctrine of our Religion dependeth on the various Lections but those texts that Agree are sufficient to establish them all yea as Franc. à Sancta Clara system fid professeth the ordinary Translations so agree as that no material point of Religion doth depend on any of their differences It is as much as we assert that the Agreeing Original Copies and the sound-Translations so far as they are such are the True Infallible word of God the former both as to words and sence and the later as to sence alone Do you not grant this P. We grant the Scripture as you say to be Gods Infallible word But 1. You cannot know it to be so because you take it not on the Roman Churches Authoritative Proposal 2. And you leave out part of it R. 1. Whether we can know it shall be tryed in due place 2. And whether we have All of it or enough is another question to be debated when you will You grant us expresly that which we now desire which is the Infallible Truth of our Canonical Scripture And this is All our Religion containing not only the Essentials but all the Integrals and Accidentals needful to be recorded So that All the Protestants Religion is confessed to be Infallibly True And from hence further note that in all our disputes you are obliged to be the defendants as to Truth For we deny the Truth of much of your Religion but you deny not the Truth of one word of ours but only the Plenitude or Sufficiency P. The name of a Protestant was never known till Luthers
time And the occasion of it was a particular Protestation of the German Princes and not directly a Protesting against Popery R. It is not Names but Religion which we dispute of And it is that which each party Professeth to be their Religion Therefore you must take our Profession or you change the subject of the dispute And we profess that the Law of Nature which no sober man questioneth and the Scriptures are All our Religion Therefore if you please you shall suppose that the name Protestant were not now in the world It doth not signifie our Religion But we now use it to signifie our Protesting against Popery or that we agree in substance and in rejecting Popery with those that made that particular Protestation mentioned by you Names are oft given from accidents as Africanus Germanicus Britannicus c. to several Roman Captains when yet their Humanity was the same before they were so named P. Turks Socinians Quakers c. Protest against Popery It seems then they are Protestants too and your companions R. 1. Thus some men study to deceive by turning from the question to another Our question I tell you is Whether the Religion of the Protestants be Infallible and not Whence is their name 2. But by a Protestant we mean only one that taketh the Scripture for the Rule and Christianity for the Essence of his Religion Which no one doth that denyeth any essential part of it If we do so prove it and you shall have our answer How do you judge of any man among your selves that taketh Gods word proposed by your Church for his Religion and yet mistaketh the Church in any point As Durandus that thought the matter of Bread continues whom Bellarmine yet denyeth to be an Heretick So is it with any among us that mistake the sence of Scripture in some such point When a Name is put upon any person or party from a common accident you may if you will call all by that name which that accident agreeth to And so Papists are called by some Non-conformists now in England because they Conform not But the world knoweth well enough that it is Protestants which are commonly meant by that name and not Papists Quakers Seekers c. though these conform not And so you may say if it please your self that Turks Jews Heathens Socinians Quakers Ranâ—ers are Protestants because they Protest against or reject Popery But the world knoweth who is meant by the Name Even Christians rejecting proper Popery And for my part I deal openly with you I care not if the name Protestant were utterly cast aside If any man be so deceived by it as 1. Either to think that it signifieth the Essence of our Religion unless you mean as we Protest for Christianity 2. Or that we take those called Protestants for the whole Catholick Church they make it an occasion of their own deceit Names of distinction are used because men know not else readily how to speak intelligibly of one another without circumlocutions And then cometh the Sectarian and taketh his Party for all the Church at least which he may lawfully Communicate with and the name of his party to notifie his Religion And then comes the crafty Papist and pretends from hence that such a named Religion is new and asketh you where was there any e. g. Protestants before Luther My Religion is naked Christianity the same as is where the name of a Protestant is not known and as was before it was known and as if the name of the Pope had never been known But now the Pope and his Monarchical Vsurpation over all the world are risen and known I am one of those that protest against them as being against Christianity which is my Religion But so as to addict my self to the opinions of no man or party that opposeth them wholly and absolutely and beyond evidence of truth I take the Reformed Churches to be the soundest in the world But I take their Confessions to be all the Imperfect expressions of men and the Writings of Protestant Divines to be some more clear and sound and some more dark empty and less sound and in many things I differ from many of them Choose now whether you will call me a Protestant or not I tell you my Religion which is simple Christianity Names are at your own Will I could almost wish that there were no name known besides that of CHRISTIAN as notifying our faith and Religion in the Christian world Though as notifying Heresie and sin there must be proper names as in Rev. the name Nicolaitans is used Even the word Catholick had long a narrower sense in the Empire with many than I now own it in Though as it signifieth One that is of the Church Vniversal loveth Vniversally all true Christians and hath Communion with them in Faith Love and Hope so I like it and am A CATHOLICK CHRISTIAN I dispute for nothing else I perswade this person here in Doubt to nothing else but 1. To hold fast to true and meer Christianity 2. To Reject all in Popery or any other Sect that is Evidently against it 3. To suspend his belief of all that 's doubtful and to receive nothing as a part of Divine faith or Religion till he be sure that indeed it is of God And now these Principles being supposed let us proceed and try whether Popery be of God or not PART III. The Protestants Reasons against Popery D. I Have heard what you have said in stating the Protestants Religion I now expect to hear what Reasons you have against that which you call Popery And afterwards that you prove all that you charge upon it But I adjure you first that you say nothing but what you believe in your conscience to be the truth as one that looketh to be judged for it R. With many Papists confident and vehement protestations go instead of Arguments and we oft hear them say If this be not true I am content to be torn in a thousand pieces We will seal it with our blood We will lay our salvation on it And do you think we have not souls to save c. Which is much like as if they would end all Controversies by laying Wagers that they are in the right or by protesting that they are honester and credibler men than their adversaries And it is no more than a Quaker or other such Sectary will say the most proud and ignorant being usually the most confident But yet though I expect not that you should receive any thing from me upon Protestations but upon Proofs I will here promise you that I will charge nothing on the Papists but what in my Conscience I am verily perswaded to be true The Reasons which resolve me against Popery are these and such like I. Reason Their Doctrine of Transubstantiation is so notoriously false and inhumane even contrary to the fullest ascertaining evidence that mankind can expect on earth viz. for all men on pain
seen the Priest and Action and Accidents are seen but no Miracle seen by any So that Aquinas concludeth 3. q. 76. a. 7 Though Christ be existent in this Sacrament per modum substantiae yet neither bodily eyes nor our Intellects can see him but by faith no nor the Intellect of an Angel can see him secundum sua naturalia nor do Devils see him but by faith nor the blessed but in the Divine Essence All these make these Miracles far more miraculous than the raising of Lazarus from the dead WHether all these are Miracles or most or many of them Contradictions and therefore Impossibilities I make no great matter of at this time I think it utterly needless to add any more to what is said in answer to such sayings as Aquinas's 3. q. 75. 76. and other Schoolmen that The senses are not deceived because there are the Accidents and the Intellect is by faith preserved from deception that the remaining accidents are in quantitate dimensiva quasi in subjecto that these Accidents can change an extrinsick body can be corrupted can generate Worms can nourish can be broken c. For all this at least confesseth that its all done by Miracle Though I will say 1. That they could scarce have chosen a more unhappy pro-subject of Accidents than Quantity nor have given more unhappy reasons for it than Aquinas doth q. 77. a. 2. c. 1. Because the sense perceiveth that it is Aliquid quantum that is coloured 2. Because Quantity is the first disposition of matter c. For this includeth matter and Aliquid quantum is a word that giveth away his Cause And no Accident is more the same with its subject than Quantity or moles extensiva 2. And he will be long before he will make or prove mans nature to be such as that his Intellect can judge of substances by Believing as incomplex objects before it have perceived them by sense and imagination When we see taste smell feel hear them the Intellect will suddenly and necessarily have some species or perception of the Thing before it come Logically to dispute from extrinsick media of Testimony What this thing is in a second notion And our question is Whether the Intellect in this first Perception be deceived or not If you discharge the Intellect from perceiving substances presently before it know them by second notions or Argument you will make man quite another thing than every hour and action tells us he is But what will not a man say when he sets himself only to study what to say for the making good of his undertaken Cause But my next work is to prove the Falshood of these pretended Miracles CHAP. V. The Minor proved viz. That these Miracles are false THat these are all but feigned Miracles I thus prove I. Because the holy Scriptures do plainly deny such an ordinariness or commonness of the gift of Miracles 1 Cor. 12.8 9 10 11. To one is given by the spirit the word of Wisdom to another the word of Knowledge by the same spirit to another faith by the same spirit to another the gifts of healing by the same spirit to another the working of miracles c. But all these worketh that one and the self same spirit dividing to every man severally as he will 28 29. And God hath set some in the Church first Apostles secondarily Prophets thirdly Teachers after that miracles then gifts of healing helps Governments diversities of tongues Are all Apostles are all Prophets are all Teachers are all workers of Miracles Here it is most expresly told us that working Miracles is a peculiar gift of some and even in those times not common to all that were Priests But the Papists make it common to every Priest though a common Adulterer Drunkard Murderer or Heretick no one Priest in the world is without it II. Though some few that were workers of iniquity might have some such gifts Matth. 7. Yet that was so rare that Nature it self taught men to judge Miracles to be signs of divine approbation so that Nicodemus thence argueth Joh. 3.2 No man could do these Miracles that thou dost except God be with him And the man Joh. 9.31 God heareth not sinners but if any man be a Worshipper of God and doth his will him he heareth And the people vers 16. How can a man that is a sinner do such Miracles And it was Christs own proof that he was of God and his Gospel true and therefore to Blaspheam his Miracles by ascribing them to the Devil was the unpardonable Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost And to deny Miracles to be a sign of Gods attestation is to subvert all Christianity Act. 2.22 Jesus of Nazareth a man approved of God among you by miracles wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you Joh. 5.36 The same works that I do bear witness of me that the Father hath sent me Joh. 10.25 37 38. The works that I do in my Fathers name they bear witness of me If I do not the works of my Father believe me not But if I do though ye believe not me believe the works that ye may know and believe that the Father is in me and I in him Joh. 14.11 Believe me for the very works sake Joh. 15.24 If I had not done among them the works that no other man did they had not had sin This also was Pauls proof of his Apostleship yea and of the truth of all the Apostles doctrine Heb. 2.3 4. God also bearing them witness both with signs and wonders and divers Miracles and gifts of the Holy Ghost according to his own Will Therefore that Doctrine is unlike to be true which tells us that every wicked Priest in the world though a Simonist or an enemy of Christ and Godliness and drown'd in all Vice is such a constant miracle-worker When God hateth all the workers of iniquity Psal 5.5 III. But though this Reason be but probable this following is demonstrative to a believer That doctrine which maketh every Ignorant wicked or Heretical Priest in the world far to excell the Prophets Apostles and Christ himself in the Greatness Number and facility of Miracles is false But such is this doctrine of Transubstantiation I know that Christ telleth his Apostles Greater works than these shall ye do But 1. There are Greater works such as the converting of greater numbers in the world which are not Greater Miracles 2. And what was promised â—o the Apostles as to Miracles was not promised to every Priest in the world I appeal to the Consciences of sober Christians whether it sound not as an arrogant if not blaspheamous speech to say that Christ and his Apostles did fewer and smaller miracles proportionable to their time than every Priest And as to the Minor it is soon proved in its parts 1. As to the Greatness of the Miracles those of Christ were exceeding Great especially his Raising Lazarus and his own
what a man may say is certain R. To this I have several things to say 1. Ordination doth not make men wise holy humble and self-denying but sets such men apart for the sacred office who seek it and have tolerable gifts of utterance And it is too ordinary for worldly minded men to make a worldly trade of the Priesthood meerly for ease and wealth and honour In which case do you not think that the Papists who have multitudes of rich benefices prelacies preferments and Church-power and worldly honour are liker to be drawn by worldly interest than such as I that am exceeding glad and thankful if I might but preach for nothing 2. Do you lay your faith and salvation upon plausible discourses and will you be of that mans faith whom you cannot confute Then you must be of every mans faith or indeed of no mans There are none of all these sects so hardly confuted as a Porphyry a Julian or such like Infidels who dispute against Christ and the truth of the Scriptures or such Sadducees as dispute against the Immortality of the soul Alas the tattle of Papists Pelagians Antinomians Separatists Quakers and all such supposing the truth of the souls Immortality and the Scriptures is easily resisted and confuted in comparison of their assaults who deny these our foundations And will you turn Sadducee Atheist or Infidel because you cannot confute their Sophistry I tell you if you knew how much harder it is to deal with one of these than with a Papist or any other Sectary you would shake the head to hear one man dispute for an universal Monarch and another dispute against a form of prayer and another whether it be lawful to Communicate with dissenters c. while so few of them all can defend their foundations even the souls Immortality and the Scriptures nor confute a subtle Infidel or Sadducee 3. What if we all agreed to say that there is no Bread in the Sacrament after Consecration Were it ever the truer for that Will you be deceived as oft as men can but agree to deceive you There is a far greater party Agreed against Jesus Christ even five parts of the World than that which is agreed for him Will you therefore be against Christ too There are more Agreed for Mahomet a gross upstart deceiver than are agreed for Christ And doth that make it certain that they are in the right 4. Will you deny all your senses and the senses of all the World as oft as you cannot answer him that denyeth them Upon these terms what end will there be of any Controversie or what evidence shall ever satisfie man Have Papists any surer and more satisfying evidence for you than sense I pray you tell me Did you ever meet with any of them that doubt of another life or of the Immortality of the soul D. Yes many a one I would we were all more certain than we are R. And what is it that such men would have to put them out of doubt D. They say that our talk of Prophets and supernatural revelation are all uncertainties and if they could see they would believe Could they see such Miracles as they read of Had they seen Lazarus raised or Christ risen from the dead c. Had they seen Angels or Devils or Spirits appearing Had they seen Heaven or Hell they would believe R. And are not you more obstinate than they if you will not believe that there is any Bread and Wine when you see feel smell and taste it and all men that have senses are of the same mind What is left to satisfie you if you give so little credit to the common sense of all the world D. But I oft think that the faith of all the Church is much surer than my sense or my private faith At least it is safest to venture in the common road and to speed as the Church speedeth which Christ died for and is his Spouse R. 1. But do you think that the opinion of the Papal faction who are not the third part of the Universal Church that is the Christian world is the faith of all the Church Why call you Opinion faith and a sect and faction All the Church 2. Indeed if all the Church did set their senses against mine I would rather believe them than my senses For I should think that I were in that point distracted or my senses by some disease perverted which I did not perceive I mean if it were in a case where they had the affirmative As if all England should witness that they saw it Light at Midnight I would think my eyes had some impediment which I knew not of if I saw none But this is not your case The Papists themselves do not set all their senses against yours much less the senses of all mankind They do not say that We and all men except the Protestants do see and feel and taste that There is no Bread and Wine But contrarily You have the senses of all the world and the saith of two or three parts of the Christian world against the Opinion of one Sect which Schismatically call themselves All the Church D. But suppose that they err in this one point they may for all that be in the right in all the rest Who is it that hath no error I must not for this one forsake them R. 1. I will stand to their own judgements in this Whether all their foundation and faith be not uncertain if any one Article of their faith prove false They are all that ever I knew agreed of the affirmative And will give you no thanks for such a defence 2. And if we come to that work I shall prove all the rest of their opinions before mentioned to be also false D. What then if I find but one point false in the Protestants Religion Must I therefore forsake it all as false R. 1. Still remember to distinguish between our Objective and our Subjective faith or if you understand not those words between Gods Revelation and Mans Belief of it or the Divine Rule and Matter of our faith and our faith it self And about our own Belief you must distinguish between a mans Profession of Belief and the Reality of his belief All true Protestants profess to take Gods word alone or his Revelation in Nature and Scripture for the whole Matter of their Divine Belief and Religion But who it is that sincerely believeth little do I know nor how much of this word any singular person understandeth and believeth I can give you no account of If personal faith were that which we dispute of I would be accountable for no mans but mine own In this sense There are as many Faiths and Religions as men For every man hath his Own Faith and Religion And if you know that a man erreth in one point it followeth not that he erreth in another They that believed that the Resurrection was past believed a falshood and yet
were but General Assemblies of the Empire inconsiderable occasional accidentals excepted even as our Convocations or the Scots General Assemblies were though in a far larger Empire But all this I have done already in other writings beyond all reasonable contradiction D. Tell me then how it cometh to pass that so many Princes Nobles Learned men and Religious can be so marvellously deluded R. Alas poor man You talk as if you knew not your self nor mankind how bad a thing corrupt unsanctified nature is Why do you not also ask How cometh it to pass that the far greatest part of the World even five parts of six are Heathens and Mahometanes and that most of the World are wilful self-destroyers many ruining their very bodies Eating and Drinking and Whoreing and Idling them into Gowt Stone Dropsies and an hundred Maladies but far more ruining their souls Why do you not also ask How reasonable Creatures of all Professions are so worse than mad as to sell their souls and everlasting hopes for a dream and shadow or for dirt and dung even for a few Cups or Morsels or merry hours which they know are like the mirth of drunkenness which is quickly gone and ends in sickness and in shame For a great Name and a large attendance in their way to the grave For the thoughts and breath of mortal man And for that which all men first or last are forced to call meer Vanity and Vexation Were not men mad in sin had they never heard a Preacher the sight of a dead Carkass and a grave would do more to make them sober and considerate than is done with most When most of the World will obstinately follow the Devil their enemy by known sin to everlasting misery against all the commands exhortations promises threatnings mercies and warnings of God himself and all the perswasions of their truest friends What wonder if the same men can be Papists or any thing But I will tell you some of the particular Causes I. Abroad in other Countries there are all these Reasons easily discernible 1. Who knoweth not how great an advantage Education hath to form mens judgements to almost any thing how bad soever That which children receive if it be not disagreeable to their sensible interest how commonly and tenaciously do they follow Whence is it that the whole Empires and Kingdoms of Pagans are all of one mind and the Kingdoms of Mahometans of another One Kingdom almost all Greek Christians and another Papists and another Lutherans and another Reformists c Hath not education a great hand in this 2. And the custome of the Countrey and the company which they converse with is of no small power with mens minds Especially when men live where almost all are of a mind they think that concord is a sign of truth and modesty forbiddeth them to be wiser than all the Countrey 3. And when they know few or none of another mind how should they know what they are And when they hear an hundred lies against them and never hear them speak for themselves they think that the Law of modesty humanity and converse oblige them to believe that so Many so Great and so Learned and Religious persons will not impudently lie When as perhaps the lye it self is a Tradition which the lyars received on the same terms in modest credulity from their teachers or fathers 4. And specially the Names of Order Government Vnity and Concord deceive many millions of souls For Order and Vnity are justly amiable to nature it self And the purblind know not an Image from a Man 5. Especially when civil Wars or Church discords have distracted the World and made men aweary of all that 's present and suspicious of all things which seemed to have a hand in their disappointments this maketh men hearken to any thing which pretendeth to certain settlement Order and peace Even as a man that by turning round is wheelsick will lay hold on the next post or fixed thing to keep him from falling down 6. And when their Teachers make them believe that all Christians besides them do live like mad-men in Sects and Schismes distractedly tearing out one anothers throats What wonder if this make men willing of any way which pretends to peace and glad to run into any Cottage which will keep them from such a storm 7. But the great cause is 1. The Blindness of mens minds 2. The wickedness of all unrenewed hearts and 3. The power of carnal Interest 1. Few men are of great natural parts for wit and fewer improve them by any serious study of things spiritual 2. Almost all men study with the byas of prejudice and partiality and as men that would have one side to be right because it is for their worldly ends 3. Sin Ruleth in most souls and the enmity against God and his Laws prevaileth in carnal minds Rom. 8.6 7 8. And enmity is an ill student and seeker of truth and friendship is an incompetent judge of sin 4. None but a few self-denying persons can bear to be reproached as Hereticks and Schismaticks by all about them 5. Especially the countenance or discountenance of Great ones doth more with such than Heaven and Hell 6. And that 's not all But he that will not be a Papist in most of their Countreys must be undone and in many must be rackt tormented and burnt And it is but few that have learnt to go to so high a price for truth and to be Religious at such a rate 8. Therefore it is a thing utterly unknown among them who is heartily a Papist and who not For when men must take on them to be Papists or be undone or burnt millions will seem to be such that are not For 9. Most of the World have no Religion in truth and power to overcome the world and flesh and therefore will seem to be of that Religion which hath the upper hand and serveth their turns 10. Yea the very Belief of the Immortality of the soul the Resurrection and the life to come is feeble if not unsound and lifeless in the most of men And so is the Belief of the Christian faith And a man that doubteth whether there be another life or not will make as sure as he can of the pleasures of this present life And I fear that this is the case of no small number of Papists to think I know not whether there be any other life of retribution I rather think that there is none But lest it should prove true I will be of some Religion And where can I be with more ease and safety than in that which my Rulers and Teachers and the whole Countrey say is right If it prove otherwise I hope God will excuse me while I obey my Governours and do as the most do He that much doubteth of the truth of Christianity it self may easily fall in with any Sect which seemeth for his interest I fear Melancthon too truly said that
Italians maintain that Christ is in the Sacrament when they do not believe that he is in Heaven 11. And many Nicodemites think that a man needs not expose himself to danger for his faith but may keep it to himself and do as his neighbours do especially where they have no other society to joyn with they think it better to joyn with the Popish Churches than none 12. And I have reason to think that it is but few among the multitude that understand indeed what the Papists hold while they go with them in the general Name and profession And in particular about Transubstantiation When even the subtle Schoolmen are not agreed of its proper sense as Durandus his instance for one doth prove I do not think that one of an hundred that receiveth their Eucharist doth in his heart believe that It is not Bread But some think that their Church it self meaneth otherwise And some say It is not for such as I to contradict them and dispute but I will leave every one to think as he will and so will I. 13. And as for Princes and Lords abroad Those that have once escaped Popery will take heed how they entertain it again unless lust and folly have sold them for a prey But they that live where their subjects are Papists dare not venture to shake so great a fabrick lest they overthrow themselves For 1. People are tumultuous 2. The Popish Clergie are rich and powerful and exceeding numerous 3. Religion is a thing that men are tender and tenacious of who are seriously of any 4. The Popish doctrine of deposing and killing excommunicate Kings maketh many Princes flatter the Priests for fear of losing â—heir lives They think that it is better make some advantage of the Popes friendship than to have such an enemy whose Knives and poison have easie access and whose armies we must watch against in peace as in a continued War and we know not when they are in our own houses or near us nor where nor when we are in safety 14. And alas the Great ones of the World have the greatest Temptations and not the weakest lusts and passions and have more of worldly and carnal Interest to carry them away 15. And the Papists Religion is notably suited to their lusts and carnal ends All which and much more may tell you that it no wonder that so many forreign Princes and States and Nobles can cleave to so sensless a way as Popery D. II. But how come so many among us in England to turn Papists of late years where Popery is discountenanced by the King Parliament and Laws R. Many of the same Causes do this which I need not reherse And 1. Too many both Noble and ignoble are prepared by their Lusts and by a vicious life There are many things in Popery which greatly accommodate a carnal mind and a debauched guilty Conscience which the Christian Protestant Religion affordeth not And a profligate flagitious person is likeliest to be forsaken of God and to be given up to believe a lye seeing they received not the truth in the love of it that they might be saved 2 Thess 2.10 11 12. I fear nothing so much as lest men turn Heart-Infidels and Tongue-Papists as the suitablest Reserve lest Christian Religion and the life to come should prove a truth And indeed great sins Cry for great Vengeance And what Greater than for Mind Will and Life to be forsaken of God 2. And alas except Lawyers Physicions and others bred up to Studies and Employments how few are there of Nobility or Gentry that are hard studying men And the great Mysteries of Religion will not be well learned and defended by a life of eating drinking playing jeasting gaming hawking hunting visitings of empty company lustfulness worldliness or vain-glorious pomp No men grow wise or Christians indeed by such a course 3. And indeed the Popish Priests are more industrious than too many of our Incumbent Ministers for which they are Commendable in their way The Erroneous are oft more zealous than the Orthodox And they that apprehend themselves between fear and hope are usually more industrious than they that by possession are secure which maketh the lower side so oft get up and the upper side go down And I would I might not say that our Ministers are too few of them able to deal with a trained Sophister Some are unable in this particular cause because they take it as a baffled pack of notorious Errors and thought that few sober persons were in danger of it And so they have honestly bent their studies and labours to the winning of sensual persons from their sins and are unfurnished in the Popish Controversies knowing that they can refer them to multitudes of Books which are unanswerable But alas too many also are unable through meer ignorance lowness of parts and gross insufficiency or negligence not only in this but other parts of their Ministerial work 4. And we have incurred no small dammage and danger by ignorant Over-doing against the Papists Partly with the self-wise Sectaries calling many laudable or blameless things by the Name of Popery Antichristianity and Idolatry because they are cross to their pre-judging partial conceits And partly by some unsound doctrines which some defend as parts of the Protestant Religion And partly by magnifying verbal differences and making a noise about them as if they were real and such as salvation lyeth on For want of skill to state a controversie and discern a verbal difference from a real And when a Papist can but shew their Novices one such palpable error in the Writings of a Protestant What sad work will he make with it and still harp upon that string and perswade the people that the rest of our differences are such like And thus many Overdoing well-meaning ignorant men both Ministers and people have unwittingly done as much to harden Papists and increase their numbers almost as if Satan had hired them as Spies to betray the Churches and Cause of Christ Yea and if one better studied in these points shall go a sounder and more successful way to work and take these weapons out of the Papists hands which some ignorant Protestants have given them the same mens blind zeal will rage against them as some did against Chillingworth Anthony Wotton and divers others our greatest Champions as if it were not themselves but these that were befriending Popery So that they neither can confute them soundly themselves nor will suffer others but zealous Protestants assault Christs ablest servants at their backs while their faces are towards the adversaries whom they oppose 5. But nothing among us except Ignorance and wickedness increaseth them more than the scandal of our numerous and some of them abominable Sects When the people see many zealous professors turn Quakers or Ranters or Seekers or Antinomians or Socinians or Familists and shall see the more tolerable parties Episcopal Presbyterian Independant Erastian Separatists and Anabaptists
condemning backbiting reproaching and making odious if not persecuteing one another and shunning many of them the Communion of one another as they do the Papists This makes them think that they must seek some surer soberer way than any of us have yet found and the Papists set in and tell them All these are branches broken off from the true Vine and withered This it is to depart from the Catholick Church when they are once gone thence there is no stop or consistence till they crumble all to dust and atomes You must become Roman Catholicks or go mad You see to what confusion all others tend If you once leave our Church you will never know where to settle Which Sect will you be of If an Independant why not an Anabaptist If an Anabaptist why not an Antinomian How will you ever know which one of all these is in the right All this is easily answered by a man of understanding But to the ignorant Vulgar it seemeth unanswerable And alas how many have given them this scandal Wo be to some by whom offence cometh 6. But the Contentions of our Clergie advantage them more than the divisions of the people when we are of many interests and many parties and proceed to make each other contemptible and odious especially when we come to hinder each other from the work of our Ministry A house and Kingdom divided cannot stand Christ tells us that the Devil himself is not so foolish as to divide his Kingdom All our consent and best endeavour is too little to save mens souls from sin and error And when one part is cast by and each part by contention hindereth the other the Papists have the far easier work When one part are not to come within five miles of Cities or Corporations where Papists are and those that may come near them are too few and many too indisposed or negligent in resisting them so that we are all overdone by their Priests in constant diligence especially with the Greater rank of men with whom one part of our Ministers have almost as little inclination as opportunity to converse no wonder if the Roman work go on 7. And alas how great advantage have they made of our late calamitous Civil Wars and manifold scandalous Rebellions Though indeed it was the terrour of their murdering about two hundred thousand in Ireland of which see Bishop Jones Sir John Temple and the Earl of Orery against Welsh which frightened those that I was acquainted with out of their peace and almost out of their wits here in England yet dead men are not heard on Earth and their service for the King in England serveth not only for a Cloke for that but for an advantage against many that stand in their way In all Civil Wars if the Clergy be drawn in to own several Causes especially if they own an ill Cause who ever prevaileth Religion suffereth by it while one part of them are laid by or hindered by the other 8. And though God hath greatly obliged this Nation to thankfulness by preserving our Superiours so much from Popery as he hath done yet some of their names are injuriously abused to entice men to the Popish way as if it had so much countenance and patronage that Interest might invite them to it 9. And the World is lyable to changes and weary of holding long in one way The name of Antiquity especially in Religion is venerable with all but yet it is Novelty that pleaseth in the Matter And when Popery is to us a New way honoured with the name of The old Religion it is a taking bait 10. But the grand cause of all is the common peoples Ignorance as being ungrounded in their own Religion and their badness who measure all by carnal Interests and all our great and manifold sins by which we have forfeited Gods presence and his grace and provoked him to leave us to the shame and ruine of our own lusts and delusions to undoe our selves Great sins bring great plagues And most men are of their Religion who have the greatest interest in their estimation and affections or that have greatest advantage on them by constant nearness familiarity kindred kindness or power to do them good or hurt in the World And therefore to your question Why so many of late turn Papists I shall but now concludingly answer you as I begun with you concerning the Cause of your own doubts They that have long lived under the light of the holy Gospel and among the mercies which have blest this Land and yet have been sincerely no true Christians but loved their fleshly lusts and pleasures and their wealth and worldly honour more than God or holiness or Heaven it is no wonder that they easily change their party and can be in siding of any Religion who are in sincerity of none and if God forsake their understandings and give them up to senseless and unreasonable opinions who would not live according to the knowledge which they had nor obey the truth which was clearly opened to them And such hypocrites and perfidious rebels against Christ all Protestants do confess themselves to have been who turn Papists and know what they do Because they profess to go from a state of damnation into a Church out of which there is no salvation if the Popes judgement be as powerful in Heaven as it is at Rome D. But is there no hope of ending these lamentable differences and removing the scandal of Infidels hereby or at least of living together like Neighbours without seeking each others blood or ruine R. 1. Yes when God shall by his Providence take down the worldly Greatness and Advantages of the Papacy and level the King of Rome with the true Pastors of his Church and turn the usurping Monarch of all the World into a true Bishop that so worldly Power honour and wealth may not be stronger arguments with their party than Heaven and Hell and Gods commands Till then their Great twisted Interest is like to rule them and keep them in the errours into which it hath involved them Especially while their pretended Infallibility against all sense and reason is their strength which maketh them uncurable in any errour which they once embrace 2. But yet I did in the second Part of my Key for Catholicks long ago shew the terms on which we may live like neighbours if not like Christians if their principles would allow their minds to be but peaceable and give dissenters leave to live And I still profess that might we but secure our selves and our posterity I am none of those that would have the least injury much less cruelty exercised upon any man for being a Papist If they will live peaceably with me or but give me leave I will live peaceably with them And I doubt not but as there are some among them truly fearing God though corrupt with the errours of their education so there are more that are of kind and civil
of Christ though not to Grace or Justification And this is common in the Schools as Ferera shews that followeth it And for this Opinion Scotus is cited But I think he holdeth that explicite belief of Christ or the Gospel is not of necessity of means as to Grace or Glory as 4. d. 3. q. 4. What is plainer than that now men may be saved without the explicite belief of Christ And I plainly think its Scotus's and the common opinion which Vega followeth and Faber 4. d. 3. and Petigianis very well and of the Thomists Bannes 2.2 q. 2. a. 8. Canus and others Yea the Trent Council seemeth to favour it Sess 6. c. 4. p. 114. So Corduba Medina Bradwardine ☞ And such as have no explicite faith in Christ are not formally without the Church This way go Victoria in 4. Relect. 4. tit Richard de Villa med 3.25 a. 3. q. 1 c. Well saith Petigianis 2. d. 35. q. 1. a. 9. that if there were a simple old woman to whom some false Opinion were preached by a false Prophet e. g. that the substance of Bread remaineth with the body of Christ in the Sacrament and she believe it Doth she sin by this No. p. 119. Yea if she so err through piety thinking that the Church so believeth perhaps she should merit p. 120. For my part I think that the Vulgar committing themselves to the instruction of the Pastors trusting of their knowledge and goodness if they be deceived it will be taken for invincible ignorance or at least probable as Herera which excuseth from faultiness Yea some Doctors give so much to the Instruction of Pastors that have the care of the Sheep that if they should teach that ☞ hic nunc God would be hated the rude Parishioner were bound to believe him which yet I think false p. 123. It seemeth at this day to be the common judgement of the Schools and Divines that the Laity erring with their Doctors or Pastors are altogether excused from all fault ☞ Yea oft times so materially erring do merit for the act of Christian obedience which they owe their Pastors as you may see in Valent. To. 3. disp 1. q. 2. p. 5. and others So Angles 2. d. 22. q. 2. dub 7. Vasqu p. 2. disp 121. In case they never doubted of the Veracity of their Prelates Much more saith Sancta Clara there to prove that the ignorant Protestants here may be saved citing further to his end Zanchez in Decal l. 2. c. 1. n. 8. Alph. a Castro Simanca Argon Tanner Faber Emanâ—sa Rozell And out of Argon tells us when Faith is sufficiently proposed viz. When faith is so confirmed by Reasons holiness of life the confutation of the contrary errors and by some signs as that Reason it self beginneth prudently to prescribe that the matters of faith heard are to be believed and the contrary Sect is false p. 125. And probl 16. p. 127. Whether men may be blamelesly ignorant of the Law of Nature and the Decalogue The common opinion is that they may not of the first principles but 1. Of the easie conclusions for some time and of the remoter conclusions for a longer time Such are the Commandments of the Decalogue as to the substance of the act as in some lying theft fornication manslaughter in Will at least c. R. Qu. II. But do you think that men may not as invincibly and inculpably be unacquainted with the Authority of the Pope and Roman Councils or Church as you say they may be ignorant of Christ and the Law of Nature I instance in the millions of the Abassme Christians who for above a thousand years never heard from the Pope or his emissaries P. That cannot be denyed For they have not the necessary means R. How then do you make your Churches proposal to be the necessary point to be Explicitely believed of all P. We do not mean it of all that Will be saved For you hear that some may be saved without any explicite belief of Christ But we mean it of all that will be in the Church and be saved there R. But do you not hold and say that out of the Church there is no salvation P. Some say so and some say that It is rare out of the Church R. But are the Ethiopian Christians out of the Church P. They are out of the true Church being Schismaticks R. Why said your Author before that Infidels were not formally out of the Church who are invincibly ignorant P. But other Doctors are of another opinion R. But Christ is the Saviour of his body Are not those of the Church who are saved or in a state of salvation What hold you of that P. Some say They are all of the Church and others that Christ saveth more than his Church And some say that They are of the Church Regenerate but not of the Church Congregate But few own this because it is your distinction as of a visible and invisible Church R. Qu. III. But above all I would know of you what you mean by the Catholick Church whose proposal is necessary to the being of faith P. We mean the Roman Catholick Church that is the Pope and his Subjects R. Do you mean the Pope without a General Council or a General Council without the Pope or only both agreeing and conjunct R. You take advantage of our differences but those do but shew that this is no point of faith Some hold that the Pope alone may serve and some that the Pope in a Provincial Council and some that a General Council without him But you heard Veron taketh in the Council and it is no true Council without the Pope And therefore the surest opinion saith that it must be both in Concord R. But what is the Vniversal Church whose Practice is made sufficient instead of or without a General Council P. It is the whole Roman Church real distinct from the Representative R. Is it the Clergy only or the Laity only or must it be both P. Both but not equally but in their several places R. Must it be All the Church without any excepted Or only the greater part P. These are points not agreed of and therefore not of faith Some say that it must be so many as that the dissenters be not considerable But how many are considerable or inconsiderable is undetermined Others say It may be the minor part that practise so be it the rest do not contradict it or do contrarily R. I will trouble you with no more such questions though I have a multitude which should be here resolved for I perceive that we must expect nothing but a Maze of uncertainties and confusion We are next in order to Agree upon our common principles which must be supposed in our following Dispute For they that Agree in nothing are uncapable of disputing of any thing seeing all conclusions of which we doubt must be drawn from more evident truths of which we
are less doubtful and resolved into a conceded Principle PART II. The Principles which Papists and Protestants are agreed in And therein the full â—ustification of all the Protestants Religion THe first common Principle That we are Men having Reason and Free-will and Sense whose Natural way of knowing things sensible is by the perception of our senses having no way of greater Certainty R. I take it for a common principle that we are Men having Reason and Free-will and Sense whose natural way of Knowing things sensible is by the perception of our senses And therefore that our rightly constituted or sound senses with their due media about their proper objects are to be trusted being either certain or we have no certainty P. I know what you intend I grant it as you express it R. It must then be granted us that there is true Bread and Wine in substance remaining after the words of the Mass-Priests consecration P. Yes When you can prove that the consecrated Bread and Wine are the proper objects of sense which we deny they being not now Bread and Wine R. Is it by the Perception of sense that you deny it or by other means P. No It is by Faith and Reason which are above Sense R. Now you come to deny the Principle which you granted Sense is the perceiver of its own objects No Faith no Reason can perceive them but by sense And if due sensation perceive them and Faith deny them then Faith denyeth sense to be the proper natural perceiver of its objects and our judgement of things sensible to be such as must follow that perception But we must dispute of this anon and will not now anticipate it Only remember that if you deny sense which is the first Principle no mortal man is capable of disputing with you there being no lower principle to which we can have recourse and resolve our differences The second Principle That there is One only God Infinite in Being Power Wisdom and Goodness Our Owner Ruler and Chief Good Most Holy Just and True and therefore cannot lye but is absolutely to be believed and trusted and loved R. I need not repeat it Do you not Agree with us in this P. Yes Heathens that are sober and Christians are agreed in it R. You grant then that this may be known by them that are no subjects of the Pope Remember anon that we are not to be blamed for Believing God The third Principle That the whole frame of Nature within us and without us within our reach is the signal Revelation of God and his Will to man called Objectively The Light and Law of Nature R. I suppose that this also may pass for a common granted Principle P. Yes as you express it If we agree not of the Light and Law of Nature we come short of Infidels and meer Natural men R. Observe then that we are Justified by your principles for Believing and Trusting Gods Natural Revelation The very first part of which is made to our senses By Natural Evidence God sheweth us that Bread is Bread P. Yes when sense is sound and objects and media just and God doth not contradict sense by supernatural Revelation The fourth Principle That Natural Revelation is before supernatural and sense before faith and we are Men in order of Nature at least before we are Christians and the former is still presupposed to the later R. This also I suppose is a granted Principle P. It is so But see that you raise no false consequents from it R. I conclude from it that He that denyeth the perception of sense to be the certain way of Judging of things sensible denyeth all the Certainty of faith and subverteth the very foundations of it And that we are justified for our Assenting first to Gods Natural Revelations It is God that made my senses and understanding and God that made the object and media as Bread and Wine and therefore God deceiveth me if I be deceived in taking it for Bread and Wine after Consecration But God is to be believed in his first Revelations P. You vainly call Sensation and Intellection or Knowledge of things sensible by the name of Believing R. We will not vainly contend about the Name if we agree of the Thing But this leadeth me to another Principle The fifth Principle That the Knowledge of things fully sensible hath more quieting satisfying Evidence than our Belief of supernatural Revelations alone as made to us by a Prophet or Apostle And that where all the sound senses of all men living do agree about their near and proper sensible object there is the most satisfying Evidence of all R. I suppose that we are all agreed also in this principle P. As you word it we are For our Divines distinguish of Evidence and Certainty and are so far from saying that Faith hath more Evidence than Sense and Knowledge that it is ordinary with them to say that this is the difference between Faith and Knowledge and that faith hath not Evidence but yet it hath no less certainty R. Some men use words first to sport themselves out of their understandings and then to use others to the same game Evidence is nothing but the Perceptibility or Cognoscibility of a thing by which we call it Knowable which is the Immediate necessary qualification of an Object of Knowledge Certainty is either Objective which is nothing but this same Cognoscibility or Evidence as in a satisfying degree Or it is Subjective or Active which is nothing but the Infallible or True and quieting satisfactory knowledge of a Truth Where the Certainty of Object and Act concurr For no man can be certain of a lye or untruth For to be Certain is to be certain that it is True Those therefore would befool the world who would perswade men that a clear and confident perception of an untruth or confident error is Certainty There may be Objective Truth and Certainty of the Matter where there is not in us an Active or Subjective Certain Knowledge of it But there can be no Active Certainty of an Objective Vncertainty or certain Knowledge of a lye Now if you mean that faith hath Objective Certainty without Evidence of Certainty or Ascertaining Evidence that is but to say and unsay It hath Certainty and no Certainty For this Certainty and Evidence is all one But if you mean that Faith hath an Active Subjective Certainty without an Objective Certainty in the Matter you speak an impossibility and contradiction as if you said I clearly see a thing invisible or without light P. Do you think that our Divines knew not what they said when they say that to believe without Evidence maketh faith meritorious R. The old asserters of this meant the same that Christ meant when he saith to Thomas Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed There is a sensible Evidence and an Intelligible Evidence Faith hath not an Immediate sensible Evidence that is we believe