Prophets not as wanting soueraigntie and sufficiencie in himselfe aboue all Prophets but leading them that knew him not to consider better of those Scriptures which they knew It is as true of Pauls writings as of the rest of the Apostles and Prophets which S. Augustine affirmeth De quorum scriptis quòd omni errore careant dubitare nefarium est Of whose writings to doubt whether they be free from all error is plaine wickednesse Neuerthelesse I well perceiue that all this great shew of cleauing to the Fathers iudgements is but coloured in you For in other points againe we see when they speake not to yoúr liking the case is altered I see in this booke where you forsake the ancient and learned Fathers that is as you speake in my case you conâ—…mne despise them The more vniust then and iniurious was your slander that I went about by the vse of one word which olde and new Diuines vsed in like sort before me to make the Fathers of equall authoritie with the Scriptures since now you can both obserue and obiect that euen in this booke which you impugne I say and do the contrarie And though I be farre from repenting or misliking any thing that I sayd touching the prerogatiue of the sacred Scriptures and their irrefragable authoritie against all the words and wits of men yet can I not chuse but note your negligence that marke neither what nor of whom I speake Had I brought Fathers in matters of faith against or without the Scriptures you had some colour to choake me with mine owne words but taking care as I did that in cases of faith the Scriptures should be plaine and perspicuous for my purpose before I cited them and the testimonies of the Fathers euident and concurrent with the Scriptures how doe I crosse any of those places which you quote out of my writings touching the authoritie and sufficiencie of the Scriptures in points of faith or what agreement hath your dissenting from the Scriptures and Fathers in the chiefest keyes of Christian religion with my leauing them in some expositions and positions not pertinent to the faith nor generally receiued of them all It is vanitie enough to dreame of contradictions where none are and as great infirmitie not to see that which lieth before your eyes but to pronounce that you know how wauering and slipperie I am for the most part therein when you neither consider nor conceiue what I say that is more than childish temeritie As I sayd so I say againe In Gods causes Gods booke must teach vs what to beleeue and what to professe and therefore what I reade in the word of God that I beleeue what I reade not that I doe not beleeue Yea I adde thereto S. Basils conclusion If all that is not of faith be sinne as the Apostle sayth and faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God all that is without the Scripture inspired from God as not being of faith is sinne This confession I constantly holde and as in the first booke which you quote I directly and expresly defend that no point of faith should be beleeued without Scripture so in my Sermons I no where varie from it how slipperie soeuer your tongue be to tell a tale in stead of a trueth I doe reiect Austens opinion in three speciall points and diuers Fathers in two other cases and some of those things I affirme against all the Fathers and almost against all the Church and yet I bitterly reproue you for vsing the like libertie Doe I any where reiect S. Augustine or all the Fathers in any point of doctrine necessarie to our saluation as you do in the chiefest grounds of our redemption And when I let the Reader vnderstand that the reasons which some Fathers bring to fortifie their priuate opinions are not sufficient for to force consent to be giuen vnto them doe I call them fond absurd without reason or likelihood and paradoxes in nature as you do These two things I iustly reproue in you which I my selfe doe not fall into for all your fitning In the maine principles of Christian religion and our redemption you make the best learned Fathers ignorant of their Creed and Catechisme and when their expositions of the Scripture crosse your imaginations you Reuell against their Iudgements as void of sense and reason This doâ—… I not In the rule of faith I renounce not their maine consent nor vndoubted maximes least I conclude them or my selfe to erre in faith In other questions of lesâ—…e importance wherein they differ sometimes from ech other sometimes euen from themselues I let the Reader see their reasons and leaue him free to follow what he liketh or to suspend his iudgement if he find cause therefore This libertie I neuer take from you nor mislike it in you but when you pronounce all to be absurd fond and foolish that yeeld not to your fansie wherein you doe not onely proudly aduance your owne dreames as necessary Doctrines but reprochfully preiudice the freedome of others This difference is not my deuise the auncient consent of Godly Fathers saith Vincentius is with great care to be searched and followed of vs not in all the questions of the Diuine Law but onely or chiefly in the Rule of Faith Whether therefore the bodies of such as arose and came out of their graues after Christs resurrection returned againe to corruption or still kept the honor of immortalitie which was bestowed on them as also when Christ said to the theefe on the Crosse this day shalt thou be with me in Paradise whether Christ ment the presence of his humane soule or of his Diuine glory should be that day in Paradise and so whether the soules of the faithfull dâ—…parting this life goe straight to heauen or stay in a place appointed them of God till the day of iudgement and likewise whether Abrahams bosome were a receptacle for soules within the earth and neere to hell or far aboue the earth and lastly whether the loosing of Adam from hell by Christs descent thither which the whole Church almost seemed to hold by tradition freed onely the person of Adam from the place of hell or both him and his posteritie from all feare and danger of hell These be things that may be liked disliked or suspended without any manifest breach of faith and wherein Saint Austen probablely disputeth but determineth nothing for certaintie to be beleeued alwaies tempering his words in these cases with Ego quidem non video explicent qui possunt nondum intelligo nulla causa occurrit nondum muâ—… I see not how let them declare it that can as yet I vnderstand it not I conceaue presently no cause as yet I find it not cleere If I then laboured with respectiue words and other places of the same Fathers to shew wherein they doubted or dissented who but a light head and slipper tongue would call this
hath destroied death and purchased life for vs. And therefore after Chriâ—…s resurrection and ascension to aske who shall ascend to heauen to procure vs life or who shall descend into the deepe to destroy death for vs is to frustrate through infidelity that which Christ hath done for vs. If we confâ—…sse with our mouths and beleeue with our hâ—…arts that God hath raised vp Iesus from the dead to be Lord ouer all that is to giue life and saue from death whom he will we shal be saued this is the Apostles purpose As for merit-mongers of whom you say the Apostle speaketh these words it is an idle and drowsie conceit of yours These words doe no waies fitte presumers on their merits for they thinke they shall ascend to heauen by their workes they aske not who shall ascend and in the bottom of the sea what merits can you deuise or to what creatures there should Pharises seeke how to fulfill the law what bables be these to be wreathed into the Apostles words or who but you would place all the creatures of God either in heauen or in the bottom of the sea If you cannot write as a diuine speake yet as a man of common sense or vnderstanding And all these senses you say the Apostle may insinuate in this word I thinke as soone all as one but that the deepe in one and the same sentence should signifie the graue the bottom of the sea and the whole state of the dead is a flower of your field it groweth in no wise mans garden I may not omit to shew how you deale here againe with the Text. You alleage it â—…e descended into the deepe But he is cunningly added neither are these words meant of him Your eyes be not paires that perceiue not the difference betwixt a quotation and a conclusion gathered out of the Apostles words In the 220 page with which you cauill the letter b pointing to Rom. 10. in the margine is set after he and next before descended to the deepe So that any sober man might soone see I alleaged not this word he as out of the text but inferred it as the true meaning of the Apostle And whether I haue better reason to say these words are meant of Christ as all Interpreters new and olde doe than you haue to say they are meant of a Pharâ—…aicall Merit-monger that seeketh to learne of fishes in the deepe of the sea how to fulfill the Law let the Reader iudge now he hath heard vs both The like praâ—…se you vâ—… againe in the Psalme There is no word to exprâ—…sse beneath which you put into the text of your owne head Were there no word importing so much yet so long as the word added is expresly ratified by many places of Scripture as appeareth Esay 14. vers 9. and Prouerbs 15. vers 24. in plaine words that Sheol is beneath and the addition is in another letter different from the rest before and after your Mastership might haue taken it for an explication inserted and not for any part of the text cited But you neuer suppose that the Printer may sometimes mistake or mis-set my directions and that maketh you so fast to fome at mouth with my falsifying the word of God of purpose and for aduantage where you rather lie of purpose or for aduantage since I doe not offer there to build any thing on that word nor so much as mention it in my collection there which if I would haue done Scriptures enough besides this would warrant my assertion And what if you whet your teeth against the trueth and the word there of it selfe will beare this addition without any corruption is not your time well spent to play the Bedlom in this sort and in the end to betray your owne ignorance and malice The Septuagint translate the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 if I descend or go downe to Sheôl whom the Greeke Fathers follow The West Church kept the same word as is euident by all the Latine Fathers The Chaldaie paraphrase sayth Veêmuc lishjol If I depresse or humble my selfe downe to Sheol where the word is mac to be depressed downe or humbled low Ierom sayth If I lie downe in Sheól New Writers well skilled in the Hebrew tongue as Pellican Pomerane and others continue the word of descending and many that change it retaine the same sense as Vatablus Heâ—…raismus prosietiam descendam ad Ima it is an Hebrew phrase importing thus much If I doe descend to the parts beneath Westhmerus expoundeth it Si descendam in infima loca terrae If I descend to the lowest places of the earth Mollerus Si ettam descendam ad Ima If I should descend to the places beneath Dauid Kimchi obserueth that this word is not only to spread but withall it hath in it the force of lematta below beneath Augustâ—…us â—…stinianus translated the Arabick with the word of descending If all these haue falsified the word of God in so translating and expounding this place then haue I mistaken in following their iudgements but that I falsified of purpose or for an aduantage that is the meale of your mouth not vnlike the rest of your griest Howbeit it is eâ—…ident the Hebrew word hath in it as Kimchi noteth the signification of sub infra and in that respect importeth a bed where a man lieth downe in a lower position than he had before For which cause I might lawfully render the word as I did If I lie downe or lodge beneath in sheól Since Sheol by the Scriptures is a place whither a man must descend though indeed to preuent all challenge I was content to expresse the force of the word in another letter Our second and most principall reason is this If there be not one place of Scripture to proue that Christs soule was in hell then you ought to denie that opinion but you haue not indeed any one place that proueth it therefore it ought to be denied You shew your Logâ—… where little need is keepe it if you be wiâ—…e till it may stand you in more steed Euery Child knoweth or at least hath heard that faith must depend on the word of God Wherefore if it be no where written we meane not to beleeue it But if when the words be plaine you will wrest them with figures and phrases to another purpose then giue vs leaue if your proofes be not sound and good to tell you that our faith relieth on the singlenesse and plainnesse of the word of God so receaued and beleeued since Christ had a Church on earth And though you can make shewes with diuers acceptions and figuratiue senses of words yet that is no reason to reuerse the trueth written For giue me the like liberty without regard of faith and trueth and I can shift of any word whatsoeuer in the Scriptures yea the chiefest and mainest grounds of Religion I can elude with different
terrible cracks of that flaming fire to haue their eyes blinded with the bitter smoke of that fuming gulfe to be drowned in the deepe lake of Gehenna and to be torne eternally with most greedie wormes to thinke on these things and many such like is a sure way to renounce all vice and refraine all allurements of the flesh Apparently then the fire of hell by the confession of all these ancient aud Christian writers is locall as kept vnder the earth externall as inclosing the damned both men and diuels and sensible to the eyes with obscure flames tormenting all the parts of the body with an horrible paine of burning but not consuming them And that the fire of hell shal be an externall and true fire what proofe can be fairer or fuller than that Scriptures and Fathers with one voice professe that Christ shall come to iudge the world in flaming fire which shall melt the elements with heat and dissolue the heauens and threfore without question must needs be a true substantiall externall fire and that the same fire with which he shall come to iudge shall deuoure his aduersaries Behold sayth Esay the Lord will come with fire that he may render his indignation with the flame of fire for the Lord will iudge with fire There shall goe a fire before him when he commeth to iudge sayth Dauid and burne vp his enemies roâ—…nd about The Lord Iesus sayth Paul shall shew himselfe from heauen in flaming fire rendring vengeance to them that know not God and obey not the Gospel For to such remaineth no sacrifice for sin but a fearefull expectation of iudgement and a violence of fire which shall deuoure the aduersaries Fire sayth Arnobius shall go before Christ comming to iudgement euen fire which shall performe two offices with one and the same aspect it shall lighten the friends and inflame the enemies of God for the fire which shall burne the sinfull shal be made brightnesse to the iust The end of this present world saith Iustine Martyr is the iudgement of the wicked by fire as the scriptures of the Prophets Apostlesdeclare and likewise thâ—… writings of Sibylle so blessed Clemens that liued with the Apostles in his Epistle to the Corinths affirmeth Christ shall come sayth Ambrose with his heauenly army and with fire as his minister to giue vengeance â—…or the sire of iudgement shall serue him to reuenge the reprobate sayth Gregorie Paul sheweth sayth Theodoret that iudgement shal be full of terror noting first the Iudge comming from heauen then their power which minister vnto him who are the angels lastly thâ—… kinde of punishment for the wicked shall be deliuered to the flame of fire There are two properties in fire to burne and to shine the shining propertie the assembly of Saints shall enioy by the other shall wicked men be punished So Basil There are two forces in fire one to burne the other to shine the sharpnesse of â—…ire which punisheth is layed vp for those that deserue burning the light and shining thereof is allotted to the ioy of the blessed And Athanasius Fire hath two forces the one of shining which shall be giuen to the iust the other of burning which shall be diuided to sinners Ierom likewise Fire shal be light to the faithfull and punish the vnbeleeuers And Theophylact Christs comming shall be in flaming fire as Dauid professeth of him A fire shall goe before him and shall burne his enemies round about For this fire shall offer burning to sinners and no shining but to the iust it shall giue light and shining and no heat or burning The fire I trust which hath these two properties to lighten the iust and torment the wicked is an externall and sensible fire and with that fire Christ shall come to dissolue the heauens melt the elements and punish the wicked neither shall the spirituall and internall paine of the soule which the Discourser maketh his hell fire come neere the Saints or be ioyous and comfortable to any as the fire of iudgement shal be to the saints of God Then all sorts of writers Prophets Euangelists Apostles and Diuines of all ages Yea Philosophers Poets and Sibyls haue taught the wicked shall â—…e punished with true fire and not with metaphores and the Sonne of God in person hath confirmed the same and all sectes Iewes Pagans and Christians haue beleeued it God taking speciall care as well by deeds as words that the truth and terror of his vengeance vpon sinne should not be vnknowen to all the world For which cause he hath not only made the earth in many places as Aetna Vesuuis and else where to burne with perpetuall fire but hath often destroyed sinfull persons and places with fire from heauen to let all men see and know that the vengeance decreed threatned and executed on the wicked is sensible and true fire from God which he hath made of all senseles creatures the most violent potent and fearefull meanes to punish Therefore did he raine fire and brimstone vpon Sodome and Gomorre when their sinnes were at full punished the people that murmured at him with fire calling the name of the place THABHERAH because the fire of the Lord burnt amongst them as likewise he sent Firie serpents to bite them when they spake against him So Fire came out from the Lord and consumed the two hundred and fiftie men of Corahs company that presumed to offer incence vnto the Lord as before it had destroyed Nadab and Abihu for offering strange fire before the Lord. And at Eliahs word Fire came downe from heauen twice and deuoured two Captaines with their two bands of an hundred men Insomuch that when Satan would haue Iob beleeue he was punished by Gods owne hand he gate fire to fall from heauen vpon Iobs sheepe and seruants the messenger making this report The fire of God is fallen from heauen and hath burnt vp thy sheepe and seruants and deuoured them Which kind of vengeance Iames and Iohn the Disciples of Christ desired when their master was repelled by the Samaritans and denyed lodging as willing to haue that inhumanitie punished to the example of all others but that they were repressed by him who came to saue and not to destroy Thus hath God often by true and sensible fire from heauen declared and verified the certaintie of his generall and finall iudgement when his Sonne shall appeare in flaming fire to render vengeance to all that know not God and obey not the Gospell and that fire of Iudgement which shall burne heauen and earth shall shine to the Saints with ioy and comfort and punish the wicked by tormenting them for euer This you thinke is not against you for you deny that Now there is corporall fire in hell whatsoeuer there shall be hereafter when bodies also shal be there vnited and tormented with the soules and this
sense and case that I do Peruse the labours of that learned Father Bishop Iewel and see how often in his Replie to Harding and his Defence of the Apologie he calleth the testimonies of the ancient Fathers and Councels Authorities We rest sayth he vpon the Scriptures of God vpon the Authoritie of the ancient Doctours and Councels And againe to reckon vp the authorities of ANTIQVITIE it would be infinite The halfe communion by the authoritie of Gelasuis may well be called open sacriledge In the conclusion of the same booke I grant you haue alledged authorities sundrie and many such as I knew long before Verely I neuer denied but you were able to bring vs the names and shadowes of m◅ny Fathers You haue defended the open abomination of your stewes by the name and AVTHORITIE of S. Augustine You haue sought vp a companie of new petite Doctors Authors void of Authoritie full of vanities In the conclusion of his defence of the Apologie my Authorities of Doctors and Councels as you haue vsed them are few enough What meant you in fauour of open Stewes to shew vs the name and AVTHORITIE of S. Augustine Peter Martyr against Smithes bookes of the singlenesse of Priests sayeth In iudging of things obscure we must haue two waies or meanes to direct vs one i◅ward which is the Spirit the other outward which is the word of God Tum si ad haec patrum etiam authoritas accesserit valebit plurimum to these if the authoritie of Fathers be ioyned it is of great force So Chemnitius in his examination of the Tridentine Councell Quod de patrum authoritate sentimus etiam ab ipsis Patribus didicimus That which we hold touching the authoritie of the Fathers we learned of the Fathers themselues Where also he teacheth you this Rule worth the noting for your new found Redemption and the rest of your nouelties Sentimus etiam nullum dogma in ecclesia no◅m cum t◅ta antiquitate pugnans recipiendum We also confesse that no point of Doctrine which is new to the Church and repugnant to all antiquitie is to be receiued If the Fathers themselues will better please you I want not their example for the vse of that word which so much offendeth you Ierome in his Epistle to Damasus in very earnest manner maketh this petition Vt ◅ihi epistolis tuis siue tacendarum siue dicendarū hypostase◅n detur authoritas That AVTHORITIF may be giuen me saith he by your letters to vse or refuse the word hypostases Vincentius in his book against heresies mooueth this question Here some perchaunce will aske where as the Canon of the Scripture is perfect and abundantly sufficient in it selfe for all things quid opus est vt ei ecclesiasticae intelligentiae iungatur authoritas what neede is there that the authoritie of the ecclesiasticall interpretation should be ioyned with it The effect of his answere which is good for you to obserue that claime such libertie for your selfe to expound the Scriptures at your pleasure is this least euery man should wrest the Scriptures to his fansie and sucke thence not the truth but the patronage of his error Saint Augustine that is euery where carefull to yeeld the Scriptures their due reuerence yet giueth the word Authoritie to the decrees of Councels and writings of godly Fathers before his time Speaking of generall Councels he saith Quorum est in ecclesia saluberrima authoritas Whose authoritie is most wholsome in the Church And alleaging the testimonies of Irenaeus Cyprian Hilarius Ambrose Gregorie Chrysostome Basil and others against Iulian the Pelagian he concludeth Hoc probauimus Catholicorum authoritate sanctorum this haue we prooued by the authoritie of Godly Catholike men vt vestra fragilis quasi argutula nouitas sola authoritate conteratur illorum that your weake and sleigh noueltie might be ouerwhelmed with their onely authoritie For your contumacie is first to be repressed by their authoritie With these testimonies and so great authoritie of holy men thou must either by Gods mercy be healed or else thou must accuse the egregious and holy Doctors of the Catholike truth against which miserable madnes I must so answere that their faith may be defended against thee euen as the Gospell it selfe is defended against the wicked and professed enimies of Christ. If then this word seeme insolent to you which is so frequent with the best Diuines of former and latter times let your Reader iudge whether it be ignorance or insolence in you to stumble at so plaine a word as if the religious and auncient Fathers and lights of Christs Church were not worthy with you to be counted learned Authors nor their testimonies to be named Authorities fit to guide and lead others to the knowledge of the truth I trust no aduised Christian will challenge more authoritie to the Fathers then was giuen by those of Beraea to the Apostle nor deny indeede to any priuate man much lesse to a Minister to iudge and discerne in themselues not onely the words of men but euen of the sense and meaning of the Scripture by the Scripture it selfe which thing the Beraeans did and are commended by the holy Ghost for it I trust you claime no power to iudge of the Scriptures you may discerne the truth there written but with necessitie to beleeue not with libertie to iudge And if by your freedome you fasten on falsehood it is no excuse for you but a condemnation vnto you Saint Austen speaking of the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles saith quos omnino indicare non audeamus which we may not dare at all to iudge And where you say the Ber◅ans are commended by the holy Ghost for not beleeuing that Paul spake touching Religion till they had examined by the Scriptures and seene whether the truth were so as he vttered You speake not one◅y vnwisely and vntruely but if you would haue Christians to follow that course you shew intolerable pride against the word of God for the Beraeans were commended when as yet they neither beleeued in Christ nor acknowledged Pauls Apostleship for their readinesse to heare and care to search whether Paul spake trueth or no. This if you now assume to your selfe ouer Pauls words or writings you incurre the crime of flat impietie Pauls words to vs that beleeue without further search or other credit are of equall authoritie with the rest of the Scriptures and not to beleeue him till we examine and see the trueth of his doctrine is meere infidelitie Behold I paul say vnto you must suffice all Christians and if an Angel from heauen preach otherwise than he preached we must hold him accursed For our comfort that beleeue and to perswade them which as yet beleeue not we may search and see the consent betwixt the Prophets and Apostles yea the sonne of God sent men to the writings of Moses and the
people You be come now from a sinne-offering to a part of a sinne offering and that you proue because the Scape-goat was CONSECRATED and OFFERED to make reconciliation by him All these words are your owne adding to the text and if you keepe that course you may proue what you list if not by the Scriptures at least by your commentaries vpon the Scriptures The words of Moses in that verse which you quote are those And the goat on which the lot fell to be the Scape goaâ—… shal be brought aliue before the Lord LECAPPER to pray ouer him oâ—… to carie away sinne by him and to send him for the Scape-goat into the desert You aske whose translation this is Theâ—…s that had better skill in the Hebrue tongue than you or I. The ancient translation of the Latine Church hath vt fundaâ—… preces super â—…um to make prayers ouer him which Isychius Nicolaus de Lyra and Arias Montanus â—…o follow Pagninâ—… sayth ad emundandum per illum to clense or cary away sinne by him which Vatablus in his notes varieth by adrogandum to pray ouer him That the Scape-goat was consecrated or offered there are no such wordes in Moses text except you meane that the bringing of the goat before God was the offering of it and the praying ouer it was the consecrating of it but these be sillie coniectures to proue the consecration and oblation of a Sacrifice The Scape-goat therefore was not the halfe sinne-offering of the people as you pretend it was a sensible figure of the acceptance of the former Sacrifice whose bloud was carried within the vaile and made a full propitiation for all their sinnes as much as those Sacrifices could effect And in token thereof the Priest was willed before their faces by imposing his hands and confessing their iniquities to let them see that the Lord remoued all their sinnes out of his sight as that goat was caried away from the sight of men into the wildernesse So that the Scape-goat was nothing giuen to God for sinne as you would haue it but shewed rather a reiection and detestation of sinne by his departure into the desert and was no sanctified and accepted sacrifice for sinne as the other was whoâ—…e bloud did make the purgation of their sinnes and reconcile them to God by his figuring and their beleeuing in the true and eternall sacrifice for sinne Was not the Scape-goat then a figure of Christ as well as the slaine goat Though certaine Fathers doe sometimes resemble the Scape-goat to the wicked and reprobate which is not so wide a wandering from the trueth as your wresting it to signifie the sufferings of Christes soule yet neither did I nor doe I gainsay but the Scape-goat might in some sort be a figure of Christ notwithstanding all things in it can not be proportioned to Christ for so no figure can match him yet that doth not proue it to be sacrifice for sinne much lesse to foreshew the sufferings of Christes soule There were many figures of Christ yea of Christes death as the Brasen Serpent the Rocke in the desert Sampson Ionas and many such which were no sacirfices and so might the Scape-goat prefigure either the cause or shame of his death or both as the slaine goat did the maner and power of his death and yet be no sinne-offering Iustine Martyr sayth The two goats designed the two commings of Christ the first when the Elders of the people and Priests laying their hands on him and putting him to death SENT HIM AVVAY AS THE SCAPEGOAT The second when they shall acknowledge him whom they dishonoured to be the sacrifice for all repentant sinners Teâ—…ullian is of the same minde One of the goats arayed in redde scarlet aecurfed and spet on beaten and punched by the people was cast out of the city into a place of perdition thus marked with manifest signes of the Lords passion The other offered for sinne and giuen for food to the Priests of the Temple secundae repraesentationis argumenta sign bat sealed the effects of his second appearing Theodoret referreth the two goats to the two natures of Christ the â—…laine goat to represent the passible nature of his flesh the Scape-goat to shew the impassible nature of his Diuinitie Isychius doth the like Caluine a man of sharpe iudgement and in some sense a mainteiner of the sufferings of Christes soule yet doth not applie the Scape-goat as you doe but either to witnesse the resurrection of Christ as the slaine goat did dcclare his death or to shew that Christ was a man deuoted to beare the shame and punishment of sinne for others There is heere set downe sayth he a doubble way of cleansing sinne For of the two goats one was offered for a sacrifice after the maner of the Law the other was sent forth aliue to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vel 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as a thing deuoted to destruction for others or an of-scouring of the people The truth of either of these figures was exhibited in Christ because he was the lambe of God whose slaying abolished the sinnes of the world and that he might be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one deuoted or appointed to beare the plague for others all beautie was quenched in him and he reiected of men There may be brought a more curious speculation that the sending away of the Scape-goat was a figure of Christes resurrection but I embrace that which is more simple and certaine that the goat sent away aliue and free was VICE PIACVLI as a thing deuoted to beare the brunt for others that by his departure and leading away the people might be assured their sinnes did vanish and were caried farre out of sight So that though the Priest brought one goat aliue for a reconciliation yet God was not pacified without bloud quia vis expiationis a sacrificio alterius Hirci pendebat because the force of cleansing sinne depended on the sacrifice of the other slaine goat Thus haue we manie significations of the Scape-goat referred euen to Christ by old and new writers and euen by some whom you would seeme most to follow and yet none of them applieth it to the sufferings of Christes soule So that your assertion in that behalfe is but your meere imagination farther from the words of Moses than their coniectures which you count widest off But you will proue it by maine might that shall remoue mountaines before it It must needs be then that the Scape-goate signified Christ yea doubtlesse Christ man For the godhead could be no sinne-offering neither did it make reconciliation for sinne neither did the Deitie beare our sinnes vpon him properly all which the Scape-goate did If it were Christ man it could not be his body for his body was slaine bloudily the Scape-goate was not slaine It must then be of necessitie I thinke the humane MORTALL Soule which the Scape-goate signified I know not
it is which the Scripture so calleth were not coherent with that incorruption which they shall haue there The one is not the other but the one is so consequent to the other that without holines in earth no man shall euer enioy happinesse in heauen And to both doth the imitation of Christ and signification of fire in the holocaust direct vs. Comming to the next reason you reprooued me for saying Sacraments are earthly Elements they can not set out the spirituall and â—…uisible effects in Christ. There was iust cause I should tell you that this your asseâ—…tion did mainly crosse the very nature and definition of a Sacrament For Sacraments are visible signes of inuisible graces that is of the spirituall effects of Christs power and grace abiding in him and yet working in vs. Wherein did I wrong you you ment they vsually represent not spirituall and inâ—…sible effects or acts in Christ him selfe but onely the externall and visible parts of his passion The two Sacraments of the new Testament Baptisme and the Lords Supper doe they represent onely the externall and visible parts of Christs passion Doth Baptisme shew no more in Christ but that actuall and substantiall water ranne out of his side after he was dead Is this the whole signification and repâ—…esentation that baptisme offereth vnto vs Surely you must leaue Catechising and learne to be catechised if this be all your skill in Sacraments The bread and wine on the Lords table besides the reference which they haue to the body of Christ broken and his blood shed doe they not plainly shew the flesh of Christ is meate and his blood drinke nourishing our soules to euerlasting life as the elements support and maintaine the life of the body Water in Baptisme doth it not declare the power of Christs death washing our soules and of his spirit renuing our minds These you say are spirituall effects wrought in vs not in Christ. Power to clense quicken nourish and strengthen to eternall life is that Christs or ours We indeede are the persons that are clensed quickened nourished and strengthened but the force and grace working these things in vs is Christs and not ours We receiue it as flowing from the fountaine but it naturally springeth in him and from thence is deriued to vs. The Sacraments then teach vs that the fulnesse of power and grace dwelleth in Christ really and truely which he is content shall worke in vs but neuer leaue him The water washing the bread nourishing the wine comforting note no power in vs to do any of these things it is euident impietie so to thinke or say onely they assure vs that as Christ the true owner of all these things by his obedience vnto death was made the onely disposer of them so he will performe the couenant with vs which the Sacraments doe seale vnto vs and that is the couenant of mercie and grace in this life and of glorie in the next which the Sacraments could not seale except they did signifie those gifts and effects to be actiuely and originally in the giuer as they are passiuely in the Receiuers VSVALLY Sacraments doe not represent spirituall effects or actes in Christ. When text and trueth faile you your fashion is to flie to phrases and so still to say somewhat though it want both learning and vnderstanding For example Sacraments you say doe not VSVALLY represent spirituall effects or acts in Christ. Did you speake of nature which often faileth or of men who change their minds vsuall and vnusuall might serue for some purpose but what is this to Sacraments they constantly and continually keepe the same order in their significations and representations so that vsuall and vnusuall in them are all one The nature of the Element is still the same the action prescribed may not be varied the promise annexed neuer faileth on Gods part So that what any Sacrament once resembleth or signifieth it alwayes expresseth and obserueth the same Will you diuert your wordes to diuers Sacraments and make that vsuall to one which is vnusuall to another This which you vsually exclude from Sacraments is common to both the Sacraments of the New Testament of which we reason and being common to them both as I haue shewed to signifie spirituall effects or acts in Christ himselfe with what trueth say you now THEY do it not vsually speaking of both whereas both do it apparently and perpetually It is your selfe indeede that denieth the very definition of a Sacrament for your maine assertion is that neither the Iewish sacrifices nor Christian Sacraments doe signifie any more then the bodily and bloâ—…dy death of Christ which I hope was a visible and no â—…uisible thing Your Reader will shortly take you so often tardie with foule-lies that hee will skant beleeue you when you speake a trueth Is it any position of mine that the Iewish sacrifices and Christian Sacraments doe not signifie any more then the bodily and bloudie death of Christ Indeede I afâ—…irmed they signified none other death of Christ but only that which was bodily and bloudie which I gâ—…ant was visible but as for other effects of Christs power grace by which we are grafted into Christ and quickâ—…ed and nourished vnto life euerlasting Ireferred them to the Sacraments of the new Testament as vnto Seales confirming the couenant of mercie grace and glorie made to vs by the death of Christ in the same words that I now speake it And so conclude of them as I doe now These propose vnto vs no inuisible paines of hell but the body of Christ wounded and his bloud shed for the remitting of our sinnes and vniting vs vnto Christ. Therefore your turning no inuisible paines of hell which are my words into no more then a bodily death which are yours and vnder pretence of those words excluding from the Sacraments all other significations and representations of Christs inuisible power and grace proposed by them sheweth your accustomed vain of misconstering and altering my words when you cannot otherwise impugne them You make me to crosse the institution of the Lords table because I said the Ceremonie of breaking the bread cannot properly belong to Christs body But euen here doe I not expressely say that it sheweth forth how Christs body was broken for vs Where by Christs institution the bread was BROKEN to note vnto vs the breaking of his body for our sinnes and Paul expresseth that similitude of the bread broken to Christes body in saying The bread which wee breake is it not the communion of the body of Christ and to verifie that resemblance reporteth the words of Christs institution in effect to be these This is my body which is broken for you you to make a siely shew that the Sacraments declare Christs suffering of Hell paines auouch that the. breaking of the bread cannot properly belong to the body but to the soule and to the body by Sympathie
a new compasse of hell that shall containe all that the wicked doe suffer in this life or elsewhere be it neuer so little If you will fall to creating of new helles shew your commission otherwise you may create your selfe a woorse condition than you are ware of Thinke you that any wise or godlie Reader will rest himselfe vpon such inuentions or such conclusions as these be Who can say how little or how small the paine was which Christ suffered You onely can tell how great it was for you say Christ suffered a sense of Gods wrath equall to hell it selfe and to all the torâ—…ents thereof For this if you would spare vs as well proofes as words we might at length perhaps beleeue you meant some trueth Why presume you to determine a iust equalitie in Christes sufferings to the very paines of hell vpon your owne head What Scripture teacheth you so to say Nay who can say you declaâ—… or comprehend the infinite greatnesse of it You haue comprehended and declared the iust measure of it for you make it equall with hell And yet as constant in this as in all other things you presently adde that Christs anguish might very well be and was no doubt infinite euen in those bodily stripes and wounds whose paines otherwise were finite Where if you take infinite for great or aboue mens reach and knowledge as sometimes the word is vsed then speake you nothing to the purpose For Christes paines may be great and intolerable to vs though nothing neere the paines of hell But if you take infinite as contrarie to finite which you do in this place by opposing it to finite then infinite indeed is more than hell for the paines of hell are finite in degree though infinite in hauing no end Howbeit in the meane while you wrong the Godhead of Christ in whom nothing is infinite besides his Diuine Nature and the force thereof So that if Christ did suffer paines truely infinite his Godhead must suffer which is infinite blasphemie by reason his manhood being a creature could not nor might not suffer but that which was finite both in waight and end Such speculations you broach out of your owne brest without any likelihood of trueth or concurrence with the sacred Scriptures and then you aske Who can limit or measure the furie of Gods seuere iustice against sinne As if God who is truely infinite as well in power as in all other points did his vttermost against Christ and the creature in Christ were able to beare the brunt of the most that Gods iustice and power could inflict vpon him Such desperate vntrueths well become your sobrietie who will say any thing so you may haue some shift of words to shrowd your selfe vnder but the Scriptures will teach you that Christes sufferings were of infinite price in respect of the person who was God and man not of infinite paine which exceedeth the power and strength of all creatures I aske do you grant that Christ suffered Gods wrath in spirit as the Apostle 1. Thess. 5. distinguisheth the spirit and the soule I answere do you heare that you grosly mistake the Apostle if you make the soule and the spirit two seuerall substances in man otherwise if they be but one your question is very childish For the immortall substance of mans soule suffereth whether it be by her sense affections vnderstanding or will And this is no Sophistrie deceiuing you with the word soule but it is the recalling you to conceiue rightly of the soule of man which is an immortall and spirituall substance subiect to paine as well by her vnderstanding and sense as by her affections and will and by what other meanes soeuer it pleaseth God to punish her As for the wrath which you would haue suffered in Christs spirit when you tell vs what you meane by wrath whether the apprehension of Gods wrath against our sinne or the absolute impression of paine from the immediate hand of God or the due consideration of the case wherein Christ stood when he suffered for our sinnes which might iustly breed feare care and sorrow in his soule besides the affliction of bodily paines and anguish which his immortall and humane spirit must needs discerne and feele you shall receiue a fuller answere Till then holde vs excused if we spend not time to guesse grope after your blinde and hid fansies Howbeit whatsoeuer Christ suffered in his soule it was religious and meritorious in him I meane euen the feare sorow and smart which hee humbly obediently and patiently suffered as from the hand of God whosoeuer were the meanes and other wrath than that you shall neuer be able to proue was inflicted on Christs spirit or soule Who can say but that this was as hot and scorching as hell fire it selfe We see then your forwardnesse to haue it so but withall your foolishnesse that daunting all others as vnpriuie to Gods secrets and Christes sufferings you only take vpon you to tell vs out of your casting boxe how great and how hot the paine was which Christ suffered in soule euen as great and as hot as hell fire it selfe What dreames be these to mocke men withall and to fraight the Christian faith with As if you had of late receiued some Reuelation from heauen that Christes paine was full as hot as hell fire I will not diminish the paines which the Sonne of God suffered for our sakes but am well content to aggrauate them to the highest so farre as the Scriptures giue me any light or leading but you that extenuate his paines described in the Scriptures and deuise other paines for him as hot as hell fire no where testified by the Holy Ghost what defence can you bring for your doings Who can say no Nay who can say yea that doth not rush headlong into Gods secret counsels as you doe Be these the proofes whereon you pinne the paines of hell suffered in Christes soule Who can say they were not as hot and scorching as hell fire it selfe Frie in your follie I wish you no worse fire if I knew not your vaine I should thinke you sicker than you are I haue no doubt but Christes paine on the Crosse was proportioned to his patience which God meant to proue though not to ouerpresse otherwise the measure of his paine saue that it exceeded not the strength of his manhood as I do not know no more doeth any man liuing except hee will deceiue himselfe with his owne dreames as this Discourser doth For though we may by nature in some sort coniecture how grieuous it was for Christ to hang three houres by the woundes of his hands and feet all his bones being vnioynted yet know we not how farre the power and iustice of God made way to that paine who can by any meanes as well as without all meanes increase paine to what degree he will For my part therefore I will not meddle with
The sufferings which he receiued in his body were all vniust and violent proceeding from others that wickedly persued and oppressed him though in all his afflictions he beheld with his minde and with his will obeyed the hand and Counsell of God thus by the malice and ignorance of his enemies fulfilling those things which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his Prophets that Christ should suffer So that Christes obedience and patience in all his persecutions came from the same inward powers and graces of his soule from which all his actions did though the wrongs and violences were first offered his body by the wicked In his inward affections and passions of feare griefe and sorrow his minde was the first apprehender of the causes that mooued them and his will the admitter of them But as in all his actions he was holy and iust so in all his affections and inward passions were they neuer so grieuous vnto him he was not only righteous and innocent but religious and patient and other passions of the soule in Christ the Scripture knoweth none As for your suffering of hell paines in the soule of Christ properly from the immediate hand of God it is a deuice proper and immediate to your selfe which you would faine bring in as an other and chiefe meane of our redemption besides that which the Scripture speaketh of Christes sufferings Wherein you must pardon me and all true beleeuers for not accepting your fansies as any parts of our faith We reade that God is the Father of mercies that he is the tormentor of soules in hell with his immediate hand wee doe not reade much lesse that hee â—…o tormented the soule of his Sonne in the time of his passion which is the maine plat of your new found hell The iudge shall say Depart from me yee cursed into euerlasting fire prepared for the diuell and his Angels Which fire we confesse is created and established by the might power and hand of God as a meane to torment the damned both men and Angels according to their deserts but that this fire is nothing else but the immediate hand of God tormenting the wicked spirits in hell as it did the soule of his owne Sonne on the Crosse I take either of these assertions not to dissemble with you to bee a grosse and palpable error strange to the Scriptures and strange to the whole Church of God before these our dayes wherein some make it their glorie rather newly to inuent then rightly to beleeue what the Scriptures deliuer and the Church of Christ from the beginning receiued and reuerenced as principles of Christian truth and pietie The next point to wit that by your new found Rules you make Christes flesh needlesse to our redemption you graunt is an horrible heresie but you aske how it followeth vpon your words I did not charge you with maintaining purposely that wicked heresie but with reasoning so foolishly speaking so vnaduisedly that without your direct meaning that error was consequent to your words You would faine see how Truely it followeth stronger vpon your words then I would wish or you are ware For whatsoeuer was by Gods ordinance needfull to the worke of our redemption that made properly to our redemption But the sufferings of Christs soule by or from the body which you call by Simpathy did not make properly to our Redemption as you say ergo the sufferings of Christs Soule by or from his body were not needfull to the worke of our Redemption Now if the sufferings of Christs flesh were not needfull to our Redemption then was his flesh needelesse for our Redemption by your illation Which of these propositions can you auoyd but they are either plainly true as the Maior or fully yours as all the rest Our Redemption being no naturall thing but wholy depending on the counsell and will of God whatsoeuer God appointed as necessary for our Redemption that most properly made to our Redemption and things needlesse could not appertaine thereto but improperly Of all men you may not start from this force of the word PROPER For with you improper wrath is no wrath improper punishment is no punishment and therefore improper belonging to our Redemption is no belonging at all but needlesse to our Redemption And since Christs sufferings in his body by your assertion did not make properly to our Redemption it is euident they were needlesse to our Redemption and if the sufferings of his flesh were needlesse the flesh it selfe was needlesse to our Redemption euen by your owne Conclusions For Christ you say assumed not our Nature nor any part of it but onely to suffer in it properly and immediatly euen for the very purchasing our Redemption therebyOtherwise he had NO NEEDE to assume both but either the one part or the other You heare your owne Doctrine that except Christ suffered properly and immediatly in either part of our nature for the purchasing of our Redemption thereby he had NO NEEDE to assume both But Christ suffered not properly and immediatly in his flesh for the purchasing of our Redemption thereby if your words be true that bodily sufferings properly made not to our Redemption He had no neede therefore to assume flesh in which he suffered nothing that properly made to our Redemption Here are the Cart-ropes of your owne collections the sequels whereof if you deny you must recall your owne answers and arguments so peremptorily pronounced in your Treatise How false your Resolutions are and how dissonant from the sacred Scriptures will easily appeare to him that hath but halfe an eye For the sufferings of Christs body were not decreed by God to make no more to our Redemption then Christs hunger or his sleepe which are your Resemblances but they were directly intended by God himselfe in Christs incarnation and expresly foreshewed by the mouthes of his Prophets and necessarily to be borne in the body of Christ before we could be redeemed in respect of Gods will so setled and reuealed The Apostle to the Hebrewes going about to prooue that Christ was to offer his body and shed his bloud for our sanctification and Redemption layeth this for the ground Euery high Priest is ordained to offer gifts and Sacrifices Wherefore it was of NECESSITIE that this Man Christ should haue somewhat to offer For else he were not a Priest And concluding what must be offered Christ saith he being an high Priest of good things to come by his owne bloud entred in once into the holy place and found eternall Redemption for vs. Wherefore when Christ commeth into the world he saith Sacrifice and offering which are offered by the Law thou wouldest not but a body hast thou ordained me then said I Loe I come to doe thy will O God By the which will we are sanctified euen by the offering of the body of Iesus Christ once The suffering of Christs body and shedding of his blood were
ioyntedst me Lo here the conception and formation of mans bodie in his mothers wombe most excellently described It followeth now in Ieb touching the soule Life and mercie thou hast giuen me and thy visitation hath kept my spirit Beholde life that is the soule infused of God into the bodie alreadie framed Therefore rightly and according to the Scriptures do we holde that mens soules are created of God and infâ—…nded into their bodies perfectlie framed before in the wombe Caluine God is the Father as well of the soule as of the bodie and the only Father if we speake properly yet because in creating soules he vseth not the seruice or worke of man after a peculiar maner by a kinde of excellencie he is called the Father of spirits Beza I thinke not good to dissemble this that the doctrine of traducing the soule from the parents seemeth to me verie absurd because either the whole or a part must be traduced If the whole the fathers of force must presently dic hauing whollie lost their soules If a part how can a part be cut off from a simple and spirituall substance Vrsinus We grant the soules of all men are created of God when they beginne to liue for they at one time are created and vnited to the bodie Zanchius That the whole soule is created by God I beleeue confesse and teach with the whole Church and auouch it may be prooued by firme reasons His reasons are largely deliuered in the fift chapter of the same booke and all that can be sayd for generation and propagation of soules against their creation by the immediate worke of God without any humane meanes is there learnedly and sufficiently refuted So that in respect of Austens doubt whether God deriue the soule from the soules of the parents when he putteth it into the bodie being first finished or createth it of nothing as he did Adams soule I did relinquish that in question but as for the soules rising in and by generation from Adam which you now catch holde of I neuer meant to fauor that fansie so much as to make it any question in matters of faith since with one consent Philosophie Physicke euident experience and the Scriptures themselues conuince that to be an erroneous and manifest vntruth I haue shewed before at large that your Minor is nothing true for pollution that is sinne and reall iniquitie is not in our flesh without a soule You said so much in effect before in your Treatise and if your word bee a proofe you haue shewed it but other proofe you bring none saue that which inclineth rather to heresie then Christianitie if you speake to the purpose and stand to your words as they lie either in your Treatise or in your Defence In your Treatise you say Let vs not bee curious in this hard point holding this most euident trueth that sinne is a proper and vnseparable qualitie of the soule and can not be found being in any thing where a reasonable soule is wanting If you take the word sinne in his right sense as you ought to doe speaking of the propagation of sinne and so comprise in it as well originall as actuall sinne here are two grosse errors euen against the Christian faith For if sinne can not be found in any thing where a reasonable soule is wanting then can no sinne bee found in the deuils for they haue no soules Angels to haue soules I doe not remember that euer I read in the deuine and canonicall Scriptures saith Austen If Angels haue not soules then deuils haue none for they were holy and now are reprobate but still Angels as Christ calleth the deuill and his Angels Againe sinne being either actual or originall children in their mothers wombe haue not actuall sinne neither dispute we of actuall sinne when we talke of deriuing and inheriting sinne for actuall sinne is neither deriued nor inherited If then that which is conceiued haue no originall sinne so long as the soule wanteth since you content your selfe as you say with the opinion of the most at this present that the soule doth not passe together with the seede of our generation and conception most euidently you denie original sinne till the soule come to quicken the body and so contradict the expresse words of Dauid who saith Hee was begotten in sinne and conceiued in iniquitie No maruell then you stumble at Ambroses words that wee are defiled before we hauâ—… life as repugnant to your purpose when you spare not Dauids words who saith as much if not more then Ambrose I pray omit mens Authorities in this case and prooue by sound reason that which you would For pollution that is sinne and reall iniquitie is not in our flesh without a soule We were best to omit all learning experience and trueth that onely your conceits may stand vpright It hath pleased God in things naturall by sight and experience to leade Philosophers and Physitians to the trueth of his workes as farre as mans wit can reach and with one consent they resolue that the reasonable soule of man neither riseth in the body nor commeth to the body presently with the conception Mothers and midwiues doe certainely distinguish the time of quickning from the time of conceiuing and hee that would perswade them that the child quickneth immediately vpon the conception might as easily bring them to beleeue that the moone is made of a greene cheese But sound reason you require As if trueth of experience were not the soundest reason men can giue till God doe speake That the body is not straight way framed vpon the conception many thousand scapes in all femals and namely in women doe perfectly prooue The Physitians and Philosophers interpose many monthes betweene the conception and perfection of the body Iob himselfe declareth that we were first as milke when we were in seede then condensed as curds when we turned to bloud and after that clothed with skinne and flesh and lastly compacted with bones and synewes before we receiued life and soule from God The new Testament noteth these three degrees in forming our bodies to wit seede bloud and flesh and calleth our parents the fathers of our bodies but not of our spirits which God alone is If then nothing can be defiled with sinne as by your doctrine you resolue except it haue a reasonable soule of necessitie wee either had reasonable soules at the instant of our conception which is a most famous falsehood repugnant to al learning experience and to the words of Iob or else we were not conceiued in sinne which is a flat heresie dissenting from the plaine words of the sacred Scriptures and from the Christian faith Choose which of these issues you will you either way shew your selfe to haue little sense and lesse trueth But I must adde the word onely or else I say nothing against you No good Sir that shall not need
Fathers haue duely obserued so much out of the Scriptures c August ad Simpli â—…anum li. 2. quaest 1. Vâ—…itur Deus ministres eitam malis 〈◊〉 ad vindictam malorum vel ad bonorum probatioâ—…m God vseth as his ministers euill spirits saith Austen to reuenge the wicked and to trie the good Saint Ierom. d Hierony in Ioâ—…l cap. 2. Non solum homines ministri sâ—…t vltores ira eius sed etiam contrariae fortitudines quae appellantur furor ira Dei. Not onely men are Gods ministers and reuenâ—… of his wrath but also the contrarie powers which are diuels are called the wrath and displeasure of God For e 〈◊〉 as the Babiloâ—…ans punishing Ierusalem are called Gods armies so wicked angels are called Gods hosts and camps whiles they execute the Lords will I 〈◊〉 sâ—… Basile f Basil. â—… Psal. 3â—… Euill spirits which execute punishment on the wicked and the powers that serue 〈◊〉 in that sort are called the Anger and wrath of God And that this was a receaued opinion amongst Christians Ierom giueth testimonie where he saith g Hierony in 〈◊〉 cap. 30. Plâ—…rique 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…am â—…uroris Domini Diabolum interpretantur cui tradimur ad puniendum The most of our men interpret the wrath of Gods furie to be the diuell to whom we are deliuered to be punished And to that end this office is assigned the diuell and his angels h Idem in 〈◊〉 cap. 30. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to mentis praepositi sunt Wicked angels are appointed to inflict or execute torments Wherefore this resolution is learnedly and truely made by Zanchius i Duâ—… ad summam sunt officia ad qua Damones omnes sunt a Deo destinati There are summarâ—…ly two offices to which all the diuels are appointed of God One that by their tentations the godly elect may be exercised in patience and humilitie and so their saluation more and more â—…urdered the other that God by them as his ministers and executioners 〈◊〉 spirituall and corporall punishments on thâ—… wicked reprobate k Ibidem Id quod maxime 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fine seculi c. Which shall most be seene in the end of the worlde when God shall perfourme that the diuels shall be tormented themselues and torment others in the place of eternall punishments You take the diuels office from him and impose it on God himselfe making him the tormentor of damned soules with his immediate hand to which incomprehensible punishments as you call them you subiect the soule of Christ on the crosse without ground or grant of holie Scripture and as if this were not desperate impreâ—… enough with obstinate impudencie you say CERTAINLY it was so l Some God himselfe immediatly inflicted some he inflicted by meanes and instruments but 〈◊〉 his hand principally which did whatsoeuer was done vnto him You told vs not twelue lines before that Gods owne hand inflicted on Christ whatsoeuer he suffered now you tell vs some God himselfe immediatly inflicted some by meanes and instruments but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The first is a notorious and presumptuous vntrueth no way 〈◊〉 by any Scripture the next is a trifling cauill or a pestilent blasphemy for 〈◊〉 you meane no more then that God was the principall 〈◊〉 and Appointer how in 〈◊〉 and his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should haue power ouer Christes bodie so God is the principall Agent not only in all the â—…usterings of Martyrs and Innocents but the supreame and 〈◊〉 Director and Disposer of all things done by angels men or diuels A thought can not rise in the heart a word can not proceed out of the mouth the hand can perforâ—… 〈◊〉 act without the power and will of the Creatour In n Acts. â—…7 him 〈◊〉 moue and 〈◊〉 â—…ur being and so haue the Angels all whose power commeth from him and 〈◊〉 him But if you meane that God by his reuealed will or publike ordinance sâ—…t the Iewes and the diuell on worke to kill his Sonne then you must either excuse them by Gods authoritie or charge God with the same iniquity o Defenc. paâ—… 82. li. 27. You can not say that Christes punishment was Gods meere and bare permission onelie What you meane by meere and bare permission I know not it proceeded I say from the 〈◊〉 kinde of will and power in God whence all the trials of his saints and deaths of his 〈◊〉 come though this were of more moment then all theirs in that it touched a greater person and tended to a greater honour then men might haue p Ibid. li. 2â—… Nay 〈◊〉 punishment was God written and reuealed will his expresse and publike ordinance and most 〈◊〉 appointment from the beginning of the world God in his written and vnwritten decrees in his publike and priuate ordinances is equally wise iust and holy that is he is alwayes like himselfe Wherefore this farre set Preface hath in it no strength to 〈◊〉 the whole 〈◊〉 of Christes sufferings to Gods immediat hand Did not God expresly by his Prophet denounce to Dauid what he would doe against 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 wise and deuouring him with the sword And yet I trust you will not impute 〈◊〉 ambition rebellion and incest to Gods immediat action What q Matth. 24. affliction and tribulation the Church shall suffer towards the end what r 2. Thess 2. strange illusions and lying wondâ—…rs shall leade them to beleeue lies that receiue not the loue of Gods trueth what s â—… Tim 4. heresie and t 2. Tim. 3. iniquitie shall abound in the latter dayes the written and reuealed will of God his expresse and publike ordinance doth appoint foretell and assure Shall we therefore ascribe all these persecutions delusions and transgressions to Gods immediat action Except you be madde you will be of another minde In decreeing ordering and effecting all these God is most iust pure and holy and yet these actions in their immediat authors perswaders and approuers are most vniust impure and vnholy Wherefore this prating of Gods meere and bare permission will nothing helpe your false and wicked collection But God you say appointed Christes sufferings from the beginning of the world As if any thing were new and lately remembred with God From the beginning of the world all his works were knowen to him little or great all are alike decreed appointed and setled with him u Defenc. pag. 82. li. 33. The whole suffering of Christ was Gods owne and most proper action Most proper is that which is more PROPER then all other or at least as proper as any If these words of yours be true then all that Christ suffered in bodie was as properly Gods action as the creation of the world the renouation of mans minde the infusion of grace the mission of the Holy Ghost and glorification of his Elect. And consequently Christ suffered nothing at the hands of men but all that is reported in the Scriptures of his outward
from the furious rage of Satan and malice of wicked men Here are many mights rashly and falsly supposed of Christ but not a mite of Salt or truth in them Is it lawfull for you Sir Defender to dreame what you list of Christs sufferings and when you are required proofe thereof to say It might be so extraordinarily What absurdities and heresies may not thus be maintayned if euery addle braine shall frame to himselfe new Passions and strange Temptations in Christ and all on this ground forsooth it might be so Their eares must exceedingly itche that will leaue the writings of the Euangelists and Apostles and listen to your extraordinarie might be But what might be Might Christ vpon all this spirituall fury and subtilitie of Satan or concurrence and cooperation of the Iewes haue his Faith hope or loue of and in God faile or decrease could he mistrust or doubt that he might perish and neither saue himselfe noâ—… vs why Role you thus with Roperick Termes and frights of franticke men when you speake of Christs Temptations as if hell or Satan were to strong for the Spirit and grace of God in Christ or could seuer the vnion made with the mightie hand of God of Christs humane nature into one Person with his Diuine It may be your strange fansies doe often put you to such plunges but he that stedfastly beleeueth in the Sonne of God and knoweth the truth and force of his Masters words when ready to goe to his Passion he said to his Disciples d Iohn 16. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be bold or consident I haue ouercome the world will neuer doubt such dangers as you dreame of For in the world which Christ ouercame is the Prince thereof comprised euen the diuell whom before Christ pronounced to haue nothing that is no part nor place in him And to me that am assured the diuell could doe nothing against Christ but what Christ himselfe would and that the Sauiour of the world had power enough not onely to resist but also to represse the furâ—…e and subtilitie of Satan with his word or becke saue what him selfe would permit to let the diuell see his violence endured his asâ—…aults repelled his temptations reiected and his whole kingdome despised aud troden vnder foote these Tragicall Termes of yours are but blusterings of a busie Brayne and blastes of an vnstayed Tongue that would say somewhat and can not tell what and therefore hideth his â—…isformed fansies vnder the visard of strange and incomprehensible conceites e Defenc. pag. 85. li. 1. Here now we may see how vniustly you conclude that Satan could no other way assault Christ as an Instrument of Gods wrath but onely by executing torments on his Soule euen in such wise as he tormenteth damned Sâ—…ules in hell We see you haue opened your packe of strange wares and wastfull words and otherwise besides your owne liking you haue brought nothing for all this pelâ—…e and Trash that you haue vttered My words that are short but expressing the same which you with many circumductions fetch about to couer the presumption of your cause you much mislike and yet if you weigh them well you shall see they containe the very summe of your deuices To be tempted with suggestions of malediction reiection confusion desperation and damnation so they take no place noâ—… find no harbour in the hart of man can haue no such incomprehensible sorrowes nor hellish Torments as you talke of The Hart by Faith presently and throughly resisting quencheth all those fierie Darts of Satan as flaxe vnder foote And therefore you must either take from Christ present and perfect resistance by deâ—…reasing his faith and sâ—…aggering his hope or else you can neuer sinck him into such sorrowes as you suppose You giue him f Trea pa. 45. li. 25. a glorious conquest at the last but in the meane while you leauâ—… him not onely fearing and fainting but euen ouerwhelmed and all conâ—…ounded with these strange temptations and incomprehensible sorrowes which sometimes you say come from g Ibid li. 24. the immediate hand of God and sometimes from the diuels h Defenc pag. 15. â—…i â—…8 as Gods Instruments working the very effects of Gods wrath vpon him And these paines you say were not onely as sharpe as any are in hell but euen the same which the damned doe suffer Now wherein haue I wronged you except with too much sparing you What in saying you defend that Satan executed Torments on Christs Soule such as he doth on the demned Your words import no lesse The diuels you say were Gods Instruments to work on Christ the very effects of his wrath Now what are the effects of Gods wrath h Defenc pag. 15. â—…i â—…8 equall to all the paines of hell and i Pag. 12. li. â—…0 the same which are in â—…ell but the torments of the damned Soules in hell But you would haue Christ as well inwardly tempted as Tormented by the diuell and where you defend both I reported but one Pardon me that wrong I would haue hid your folly but you will not suffer me Howbeit I refuted the one and left the other as worthie none other answere then that where in the Scriptures the diuels confesse Christs word and presence did torment them you without Scripture haue found the diuels tormented Christ. k Defenc. pag. 85. li. 4. That can be say you no other way then by Satans verie possâ—…ssing of those soules Which grosse and infernall speculations of yours for trueths you can not make them I vtterly leaue to your owne discussing Are your fansies become so fine that what the Scriptures teach of Satans possessing mens soules or bodies must be grosse and your inuentions without wit or reason must be spruice What sayd I in any of these things which the plaine words or maine grounds of the Scripture do not confirme That the diuell can not worke but where he is Will you giue him more then an almighty power to worke where he is not or will you affoord him an omnipresence equall with God that he may be euery where to the end he may worke euery where as God doth Satan may torment the soule you will say and not possesse it The diuels that could not worke on swine but they must first l Matth. 8. enter them before they could make them runne headlong into the sea can they worke in men before they enter and possesse them The Cananite that intreated Christ to haue m Matth. 15. mercie on her daughter who was m Matth. 15. miserably vexed with a diuell receiued at length this answer n Mark â—… For this saying goe thy way â—…he diuell is gone out of thy daughter The father that brought his lunaticke sonne to Christ confessed o Mark 9. he had a dâ—…mbe spirit which did teare him and cast him often into the fire and into the water to destroy him and Christ confirmeth his words in
the worst the damned feele Haue the true paines of hell no more in them but a feare thereof Is it possible for men in this mortall flesh and life to endure the true paines of hell and of the damned If you so thinke you new stampe vs a strange but an easie hell in respect of those terrible iudgements which God hath ordeined for the wicked in the world to come Will you flie to your metaphors and say that hell paines are taken for great and exceeding Then play you with figures and phrases as your fashion is and come nothing neere to the substance of the cause So that the one is a sensible vntrueth the other is a shifting trifle brought in to lengthen the tale when matter faileth And when all is sayd so much is sound as I forwarned at first that x Conclus pa. 286. li. 29. fearing doubting or distrusting lest God will for our manifolde sinnes cast vs from his presence and condemne vs to hell commeth in vs from the guiltinesse of conscience and weaknesse of faith and hope which in Christ neither had nor could haue any place My next proposition which you left vntouched is that y Defenc. pag. 85. li. 28. Christ our Redeemer suffered for vs as deeply yea deeper then any of vs here do suffer or can suffer This proposition no way helpeth your intent and besides wanteth both parts and proofs for if the whole were granted as you offer it you can neuer thence conclude that Christ suffered the true paines of the damned till first you shew that all the faithfull in this life do likewise suffer the true paines of the damned which were a monstrous miscreance meet for your new made hell Such desperate and reprobate assertions as haue no touch of proofe nor taste of trueth you place in the foreward of your fanseries But Christ you say suffered as deepely as euer any of vs heere doth or can suffer Then did Christ by your doctrine not only doubt and distrust but euen despaire his owne saluation for so haue many done that after were recouered and restored by grace and so you wrappe the Sonne of God not onely within the guilt but within the verie sincke of our sinnes inherent now not in the temptation but in the perswasion of the heart for therewith haue many of the Elect beene grieuously afflicted for the time This it is for a man of your vnderstanding to wade in waters aboue your heigth and to finde no bottome till you come to the depth of all impietie which you do not intend but can not auoid by the consequence of your positions Two lines and lesse in my Conclusion euen where you complaine for want of answer would haue eased you of all these frantike imaginations had you but soberly considered them or aduisedly sought to disproue them Christes z Conclus pa. 286. li. 10. faith I sayd admitted no doubting his loue excluded all fearing his hope reiected all despairing Which of these doe you or dare you denie Whether doubting be infidelitie S. Iames sayth a Iames 1. Let a man aske in faith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nothing doubting or staggering sor let not such a man thinke that he shall receiue any thing from the Lord. That condition our Sauiour addeth vnto saith b Matth. 21. If you shall haue faith and not doubt for doubting as Paul writeth proceedeth from infidelity Abraham c Rom. 4. doubted not of the promise of God through vnbeliefe but was strengthened in faith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being fully assured that he which had promised was able to performe it Therefore Christ sayd to Peter d Matth. 14. O thou of little faith why didst thou doubt and to all the rest e Matth. 8. Why are you fearefull ô you of little faith So that faith is a full and constant perswasion of Gods promises without all feare or doubt that we may be deceiued or defrauded Then must there in Christ be either no doubting or small faith And if vnbeliefe in vs be sinne what was it in Christ after so many and so cleere euidences of Gods owne voice and oath vnto him f Psal. 89. I haue sworne to Dauid my seruant Thy seed will I stablish for euer And againe I haue sworne once by mine holinesse I will not faile Dauid his seed shall endure for euer And likewise g Psal. 110. The Lord sware and will not repent Thou art a Priest for euer after the order of Melchisedech After these oathes promises and speeches of God from heauen to the manhood of Christ all doubting and distrusting is most hainous and horrible sinne which if any man attribute to Christ he is worse then a Iew or a Turke For they know him not we doe know him to be the Sonne of God and Trueth it selfe Set this downe for an infallible rule in Christian religion as indeed it is the foundation of all our saith for if Christ might be a liar and a sinner we are but deceiued in trusting to him and none of these inward torments or deepe sufferings which you desperately dreame of can be fastâ—…ed on Christ. So long as Christes heart and spirit stood fixed and immoued in the graces and promises of God no such strange doubt or feare temptation or torment as you talke of could afflict him No force of Satan no sting of sinne no storme of wrath could confound him or amaze him In vs these things are possible because the corruption of flesh and want of grace often pinch vs with remorse of conscience and remembrance of sinne committed but in Christ there could be no such thing And all your drifts to make him like vs in our sinfull affections and conflicts with confusion and desperation as they haue no ground in the Scriptures so are they weake and wicked in that you measure the fulnesse of Christes graces and his freedome from all sinne by the faithlesse and fearefull assaults that sinne and Satan make on the corrupt and irregenerate parts and powers of our soules Wherefore as I first resolued so I now reiterate by reason of your importunitie that h 1 Iohn 4. perfect loue in Christ did cast out feare and i Rom. 5. reioycing vnder hope made him with patience to expect the performance of Gods promises and with all obedience to endure whatsoeuer the counsell of God had soredetermined to be done vnto which must be farre from Christ Is Infidelitie and distrust no sinne with you that you make it common to Christ with vs or are doubting and fearing no parts of infidelity or what feare or doubt of his saluation could incomprehensibly torment the soule of Christ except his heart did first encline from faith to feare and so apprehend the griefe of Gods fauour lost or in imminent danger to be lost You haue giuen vs three variations of this incomprehensible and infinite paine and griefe which should torment the soule of Christ and yet you
So that in all his Infirmities affections Temptations and afflictions he was still free from sinne which may be the Apostles mâ—…aning in the laâ—…r place to note that how diuâ—…rs soeuer Christs Temptations were yet he was tempâ—…d in all things without sinne Then all such feares and sorrowes as hâ—…ue in them any doubt or distrust of Gods fauour aud Christs Saluation are vtterly excluded from him by the Apostles owne limitations and therefore you loose but your labour by pretence of these words to bring Christ within the compasse of your 〈◊〉 feares and sorrowes a Defenc pag. 86. 〈◊〉 2â—… Hereto â—…erueth our publike Doctrine Diram execrationem in se suscepit You handle the 〈◊〉 as you doe the Scriptures and Fathers turning them from their right What Christ 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 sense to serue your priuate Doctrines Christ vndertook our curse saith the Caâ—…isme what then Christ vndertooke all our sinnes and all the punishment due vnto them not to 〈◊〉 it in the same kinde but to dissolue it in his Person and to discharge vs of it Yea he vndertooke our reiection confusion and damnation to satisfie them not to beare them to clâ—… them not to beare them So that hence you may conclude a Satisfaction and dissolution made by Christ of all these things that were due to vs but you may not inferre that he was vtterly reiected inwardly confounded or eternally condemned as we should haue beene and the damned are Againe he tooke vpon him the Satisfaction and recompence of all our sinnes and paines But where Saint Peterâ—…aith Christ bare our sinnes in his Body on the Tree and Saint Paul saith b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2. Christ 〈◊〉 things in 〈◊〉 and things in heauen by the bloud of his Crâ—… and reconâ—… c 〈◊〉 2. vs in the Body of his flesh Christ vndertooke then to abolish our curse and condâ—…tion but in the Body of his flesh where he reconciled vs vnto God So that you must bring 〈◊〉 words out of the Catechisme before your Doctrine will 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 drawen And by your leaue I take the Catechisme permitted to be taught in Schooles but not Authorized for the publike Doctrine of this Realme Neither are you the Man that so much respect authoritie farre more publike then this where it sorteth not with your fansies But here you haue caught a word or two that may be misused and that is the cause the Catechisme is so much magnified by your priuate Authoritie as to be the publike Doctrine of this Realme Which I speake not to disgrace the Booke but to make difference betwixt your verdict and the Iudgement of the whole Realme d Defenc. pag. 87. li. 7. You might haue giuen a good sense of my words if you had any mind 〈◊〉 as of those generall and large words of the Scripture whereupon I grounded my selfe It is more then time we should yeelde such a ghest as you are the same submission and reuerence that we giue to the Sacred Scriptures specially when you abuse the words of the holy Ghost to your priuate vnsound conceits In the word of God I am bound to looke to the meaning of the Writer who could not erre and therefore howsoeuer the words if they were another mans might be reiected yet in the Scriptures they are to be receaued with all Religion because he endited them that is â—…e Spirit of truth and he hath a found and euident Doctrine in them though we vnderstand it not And therefore we must seeke to other places of like sense or more light that we may learne the meaning of the holy Ghost Expect you the like dâ—…tie when you deâ—…iue your sullaine and vnsauorie fansies by false and loose consequents from the words of holy write as if you were not bound to beware how you abuse the Scriptures but we must looke on and hold our peaces whiles you peruert the words of the Prophets and Apostles at your pleasure You made a number of false Propositions and Conclusions without all waâ—…ant of the word of God as e Trea pa. 46. li. 10. Thus doe the members of Christ suffer therefore of nâ—… 〈◊〉 Christ our head suffered the like yea farre greater terrors of God and assaults of the diuell And so you Reason f Ibid 〈◊〉 32. pag. 47. li. 1. which can not be refuted by the witte of Man 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vs not but wherein he had experience of our Temptations but he succoureth 〈◊〉 in these 〈◊〉 Temptations of feeling the sorrowes of hell Therefore he himselfe haâ—… experience of the sâ—…me Where to shew your witte you ioyne an affirmatiue conclusion â—…o a negatiue maior and in defiance of all truth and reason you make this childish and ignorant manner of reasoning to be irrefutable And so your pleasant Electuaâ—… that g Trea pag. 45 li. 33. of all absurditiâ—…s this is the greatest that meere men should suffer more deepely and more bitterly the sorrowes and paines of hell then Christ did All these you build vpon this foundation Christ was h Heb. 4. Tempted in all things after alikenâ—…sse but without sinne noâ—… that â—…he â—…is any such intention or direction in the Apostles words but that you will makâ—… such a Construction of them and no man must say nay To let you see your folly and 〈◊〉 iu this point I i Coâ—…lus pa. 283. shewed you many corporall paines and sorrowes and likewise many spirituall which Christ neuer felt as touching the causes and obiects of those afflictions though I did not exempt him from the generall sense of those affections In the Body of Man I named blindnesse dumbnesse lamenesse sicknesse breaking of bones burning of fire and such like which Christ neuer suffered and yâ—…t in all these he can and doth succour others In the Soule I reckned blindnesse and hardnesse of hart vnbeliefe desperation frensie and vexation with diuels all which Christ hath often cured and healed and readily can though he were neuer plunged into these as men are Wherefore your maine and immooueable Collection out of the Apostle as you dreame that Christ succoureth vs not but wherein he had experience of the same was a blind and false inâ—…sion of yours vtterly mistaking the Apostles words and meaning To this what reply you k Defenc. pag. 87. li. 18. The Apostle and 〈◊〉 both doe speake of the sufferings of mankind in generall and of each part of nature apt to suffer but not of euery particular in each of them or which each meeteth withall You are where you would be when you and the Apostle goe hand in hand as you make your selfe beleeue though you come nothing neere the Apostles speech oâ—… sense Then since it sufficeth for the truth of the Apostles words that Christ felt feare sorrow shame paine and death which are common to all men and there was no neede that Christ should haue all the same causes of feare sorrow shâ—…me and paine which euery man hath or may
admitted by him there could be no want of grace no fainting of Faith no decrease of hope but he must conceaue and discerne both Gods counsels and deeds rightly without mistaâ—…ing either the purpose of the punisher or the measure of the paine in the purgation of our sinnes For he can not lie who gaue this Testimonie that y Iohn 18. Iesiâ—… knâ—… 〈◊〉 that â—…la come vnto him and that z Iohn 13. handsâ—…efore â—…efore his â—…assion which prooueth as well his voluntarie submission as his full power to moderatâ—… all his owne sufferings which he could stay but would tast for the preseruing of his Fathers Iustice. a Defenc. pag. 89. 〈◊〉 3â—… You graunt his body sufâ—…ered truely punishments for sinne Therefore his Soule might suffer alâ—…o euen those of the extreamâ—…st degree If you ment to deale plainly you would distinguish the nature of the punishment the measure of the paine and the purpose of The nâ—…e measâ—…re and purâ—…ose of Châ—…ists sufferingâ—… the Inflictour in all which Christ differed much from the damned For first you no way prooue that any kinde of paine mentioned in the Scriptures to be laid on the damned was found in Christs Soule or Body Secondly the paines of the damned passe the Patience of all Men and Angels and much more the weakenesse and frailtie of mortall flesh Lastly the purpose of God in laying the burden of oursinn es vpon his owne Sonne was not to dishonor him or to forsake him or to execute vengeance on him prepared for the wicked but to take recompence from him for all our sinnes in such sort as better pleased the holinesse and Iustice of God then if eternall damnation had beene inflicted on vs. So that I see no one point wherein the damned agree with Christ by the verdict of the holy Scriptures onely he felt sharpe and bittâ—…r painâ—…s for the Triall of his obedience and patience and so doe all the Sonnes of God before or when they depart this life though I willingly graunt that the sense of Christs paines in many respects were farre greeuouser then any the Godly can feele with submission and deuotion to God b Defenc. pag. 89. li 37. Your selfe also graunteth that Christ both might and did suffer the extreamest paines that migâ—…t be without his owne sinne Then the more to blame you that content not your selfe therewith but runne to the Reprobate and to the damned to drawe Christs Soule within the compasse of their confusion and destruction I neuer sought to diminish or elâ—…uate Christs sufferings so farre as the Scriptures gaue any witnesse thereoâ—… but to auouch as you doe that he suffered the true paines of the damned as I then saw no Scripture to warrant it so I yet heare no reason to vphold it besides your presumptuous will Howbeit I restrained the sufferings of Christ to the state of this life where he suffered and excepted not onely all stainâ—…s of sinne and wants of grace but added holinesse and righteousnesse to all his sufferings which must be voluntarie religious and meritorious that they might be the more pretious in Gods sight and this can agree to no sufferings of the Reprobate or of the damned You would faine torment and afflict the Soule of Christ with Gods immediare hand but your proofe thereof is so weake and idle and your inconstancie therein so plaine and sensible that you doe but play with both hands to see which will soonest deceaue the Reader For sometimes it shall be Gods owne and immediate hand and his most proper Act sometimes it shall be the displeasure of God against our sinnes conceaued and discerned by the Spirit of Christ that bred such torment and affliction of Soule and which of these two you will rather incline to you cannot yet resolue c Defenc. pag. 90. li. 1. It was possible for Christ to conceaue and feele in his mind farre greater sorrowes and paines for our sâ—…nne from Gods wrath then he could â—…eele meerely in his Body outwardly It euer hath been the last refuge of all heresie to flie from the truth testified in the Scriptures to the power of God or possibilitie Tertullian being so answered by Praxeas replieth in this sort d Tertullianuâ—… aduersus Praxeam Plainly nothing is hard to God but if we vse this sentence so abruptly in our owne presumptions we may fame any thing of God as if he had done it because he could doe it But though God can doe all things yet we must not beleeue that which he neuer did but we must examine whether he hath done it That God tormenteth Soules in hell with his immediate hand is a point stifly presumed by you but as strange to the Scriptures as the rest of your new found deuices and why you should doubt of the literall sense of Christs words Depart you cursed into euerlasting fire prepared for the diuell and his Angels there is no cause but that you doe not thinke God is able to subiect sinnefull spirits to externall meanes of punishment And therefore you bring in Gods immediate hand as only meete to ouer-master Soules and diuels and giue him no power to punish them by any Creature ordained for that purpose Now whether it be Faith or Infidelitie to â—…lude all those places as â—…iguratiue speeches where euerlasting fire is threatned and mentioned in the Scriptures I haue formerly said what I thought sufficient thither I remit such as be desirous to read Likewise that God with his immediate hand tormented the Soule of Christ at the Time of his Passion with the same degree and kind of paine which the damned feele this is an other of your Positions for which you haue as much Scripture as you haue for the creating of another world What Christ discâ—…rned of Gods wrath to be laid on his person I would gladly here you expresse otherwise then in generall and doubtfull speeches which vnder a shew of some truth couer a number of your â—…rroneous conceits For first it is certaine that Christ conceaued truely as well of Gods Anger against our sinnes as of Gods fauour towards his owne Person which infinitely excâ—…eded the displeasure that Gods holinesse had against vs that were sinfull Creatures Himselfe saith e Iohn 8. I know my Father and if I should say I know him not I should be a liar like vnto you but I know him The same Euangelisâ—… saith of Christs sufferings Iâ—…sus f Iohn 18. knowing all things that should come vp in him And this knowledge if it swarued from the truth was not an ignorance but an error in Christ beleeuing a lie insteede of Truth which God forbid we should suppose of him that not onely said g Iohn 8. I tell you the Truth but h Iohn 14. I am the Truth Christ thâ—…n most certainly knew that God was highly offended with our sinnes but better pleased with his Person and that Gods loue towards him would accept his voluntariâ—…
v. 17. 18. God willing saith the Apostle more abundantly to shew the stablenesse of his counsell bound himselfe with an othe that by two immutable things his promise and his othe wherein it is impossible that God should lie we might haue strong comfort So that howsoeuer you in your irreligious sophistrie doe say God Omnipotent may inflict damnation vpon men for others If you meane vpon his Elect such as Moses and Paul were whose examples and words you would seeme to follow you defend an open and exact Impossibilitie Note and heresie speaking of damnation as the Scriptures doe and as you doe in this place where you say those holy men Moses and Paul x Defenc. pag. 96. li. 5. Earnestly and constantly wished Gods eternall wrath might come vpon themselues that the Iewes might scape it Will you flie from the elect to the reprobate and say that God may inflict damnation on them for other mens sinnes Then are you cleane gone from your examples of Moses and Paul for they were no reprobates and as farre from all regard of Gods Iustice who eternally condemneth no man but for sinne permanent and inherent as in all the reprobate For though God doe saue without merite for his mercies sake yet he condemneth no man eternally but for sinne and that either committed or inherited y Genes 18. Be it farre from thee saith Abraham to God to slay the righteous with the wicked and that the righteous should be euen as the wicked be it farre from thee Shall not the Iudge of the world doe iudgement If it be simply impossible for Gods elect to perish as our Sauiour witnesseth what hainous and horrrible falsitie and impietie is it to say The Sonne of God might be damned for sinners And though you shift sides and say z Defenc pag. 96. li. 29. Much rather then maâ—… God doe this to Christ yet if you hold either to your former examples whence you deduce this or to your words in this very sentence whence you draw this comparison you must say much rather then may God inflict damnation and his eternall wrath on Christ which whether it may not rightly be called one of your hellish mysteries I leaue to all Christian men to iudge Such wicked obseruations when you make from so weake and false foundations the Reader may soone see what a notable Diuine you are and how likely to teach the truth that pretend Gods power against his will for the vtter ruine os all Religion Christ you say was ordained for that purpose Christ was not ordained to be damned for vs. What to be damned for others or rather to beare the chastisment of our peace that we might be healed with his stripes The Prophet Esay saith he was wounded for our transgressions and bruized for our iniquities But you are the first supplanter of all Patriarkes and Prophets that say Christ was damned for our sinnes You will come in with your temporall and substantiall damnation to which you subiect the Soule of Christ But Sir if you beleeue and teach the same truth which the holy Ghost doth in the word of God Why swarue you so much from the words and grounds of the Sacred Scriptures Why doth nothing please you in mans Redemption but hell and damnation inflicted on Christ where you neuer learned any such lesson out of the Prophets or Apostles And here your abused and vnaduised examples which you pretend for this purpose import no such thing but rather the cleane contrarie For if it were not possible for Moses and Paul euerlastingly to perish because they were elected in Christ how infinitely more impossible was it that Christ should perish in whom all are elected And how Christ could perish but either by the dissolution of his person or else by the ioynt condemnation of the second person in the most glorious Trinitie to the fire of hell I doe not see since these are such blasphemies as hell neuer hatched the like a Defenc. pag. 96. li. 31. That which there you mention is the ordinarie and common rule The Soule that sinneth it shall die but in Christ this was extraordinarie and singular that the iust died for the vniâ—…st The wordes which I cited are sufficient to reprooue the first of your foure notable obseruations as starke false For there God sweareth by himselfe that the b Ezech. 18. Soule which sinneth that shall die and consequently the Sonne shall not beare the iniquitie of the Father neither shall the Father beare the iniquitie of the Sonne much lesse shall Moses and Paul beare the iniquitie of the whole people as you dreame they might And so much Gods answere to Moses importeth * Exod. 32. whosoeuer hath sinned against me I will wipe him and none other out of my Booke As for Christ since he was God as well as man his person could not be tied to the Lawes and Rules appointed for men but what he himselfe would admit in his owne person to that by willing obedience he submitted himselfe namely in his Manhood to die the death of the Crosse for our sinnes according to the Scriptures but not to be damned for vs nor to die the death of the Soule mentioned in the Scriptures to whose Doctrine we must stand and not to your deuices when we speake of Gods iudgements against sinne or of the purgation of our Soules Wherefore that God himselfe by his owne body would be the Price of our Redemption was indeed a thing proper and singular to the person of Christ wherein neither Moses nor Paul could be partakers with him or examples of him and therefore your fitting their prayers to his Passion to make your hel paines thereby possible is a thing far fet no way pertinent to this purpose c Defenc. pag. 96. li 22. I take it plaine enough that these sinned not in their desire and I suppose you take it so too in that you alleadge them and ground your Reasons of comparison vpon them They sinned not because their desires were conditionall submitted to Gods good pleasure with reseruation of their dueties otherwise if they thought that possible which they desired as you doe by their destruction who were the chosen vessels of mercie to excuse the reprobate from damnation deserued by obstinacie and infidelitie they not only erred from the truth but sinned in praying to haue their wils take place before and against the will of God But Moses in loue to Gods glory and care for his charge desired to be partaker of such temporall vengeance as should befall the whole people of God and Pauls words that are potentiall must be conditionall otherwise he needed not to haue said I could wish but I doe wish The which because he doth not but onely shew his desire were it possible and pleasing to God therefore he may be well excused from sinne though you condemne this in him and that in Moses as a d Defenc. pag. 95.
body be giuen for them and his bloud to be violently shed for remission of sinnes if this sweate did indeed purge all our sinnes but you speake in this as you doe in all other things without caring what you say so you bring somewhat to continue your cauilling This sweate the Apostle calleth m Heb. 5. teares and ioyneth them with Christs vehement prayers in the garden which he saith were heard Then Christs feruent desire to preuaile in the worke of our redemption against all the hinderances thereof might in all reason mooue him to pray with teares respecting our miserie and yet indignitie for whom he prayed and so be the cause of this bloudie sweate and your hell paines must giue place till you find some better proofe for them then your bare auouching that this sweate might rise from the very paines of the damned which is your single supposall with farre lesse warrant then any thing that Austen Prosper Bede or Bernard said And as for your binding all their significations and your imaginations in a bundell together when you first prooue that the Scriptures affirme any such thing as the second death or the paines of the damned to be suffered by Christ then we will talke what might rise from your hell paines in the meane time know you Sir wanderer that if the rest might be the causes of this bloudie and voluntarie sweate then you may put vp your pen and lay your vnquiet head to rest n Defenc. pag. 107. li 31. Hitherto we haue made it manifest that in truth you haue nothing in all these words against our Doctrine that paines and sorrowes were the true and proper cause of Christs dreadfull agonie nor to prooue that his meere bodily paines or death was the whole cause Now we are to shew the like in his most wofull complaint on the crosse where he saith My God my God why hast thou forsaken me And I haue made it more manifest that you haue lesse for your doctrine of the second death and the paines of the damned to be suffered in the Soule of Christ whiles he prayed in the Garden For what reasons be these Christ feared and sorowed in the Garden and he prayed so intentiuely that his sweate was like bloud ergo he suffered the second death and the paines of the damned except a man were disposed to run madde with reason He feared somewhat else besides a meere bodily death What then how many degrees and causes of feare and sorow haue I shewed that might conioyne in Christ now seeing in Gods presence and iudgement the waight of our redemption and the number of our sinnes together with the vengeance prouoked by them and the power of Gods anger displeased with them and yet no point nor part of the second death to be suffered by him if there might be any cause besides yours then yours can neuer be certainly concluded from the Scripture which is the thing I first affirmed to the Reader You aske me where I reade mine in the word of God and I aske you the like The Text saith Christ feared and sorrowed but the cause of Christs feare or sorrow is not there declared Then no cause being expresly mentioned neither mine nor your I leaâ—…e it to the censure of the Christian Reader which of vs two taketh the surest course I that 〈◊〉 no cause but concording with the maine grounds of the Scriptures and such as you confesse wanted not in Christ at that present and whereto the learned and Catholicke Fathers giue full consent and approbation or you that wade alone by your selfe in your owne conceits such as haue no foundation in the word of God and are repugnant to the Principles of Christian Religion confirmed by the Scriptures and confessed by the greatest pillars of Christs Church next after the Apostles And where you promise to shew the like in Christs complaint on the Crosse I easily beleeue you will performe the one as well as you did the other by your owne fansies without all regard of truth or proofe o Defenc. pag. 107. li. 37. You will aâ—…ke me here what kind of forsaking may this be Loose not your labour I will aske you no such thing What haue I to doe with your vntidie deuices wynoing words as men doe chaffe to and fro without any manner or offer of proofe The question I did and doe aske is not what you parle out of your owne platforme but how you can prooue by the word of God that forsaking in this complaint of Christs was either damnation or the second death which your Reader perceaueth now to be your purpose though you long dissembled it Your interlacing those words with qualified phrases serueth but to saue you from apparent heresie and blasphemie It maketh no manner of proofe that those words must so be vnderstoode or that the paines of the damned may thence by any colour be concluded p Ibid. li. 3â—… I plainly shewed you before if you had regarded it And I more plainly opposed those things against it which you neither did nor can answere and doe you thinke that neglecting what you list I must be forced laboriously to disprooue all your deuices before you shew what dependence they haue with the Sacred Scriptures or with the primatiue faith of Christes Church my grounds excluding your exposition and conclusion are to be seene in my Sermons pag. 32. 33. and are such as you shall neuer defeate The first is that dereliction and forsaking doe no where throughout the Scriptures import damnation or the second death which is your drift in this place but are alwaies applied to the iudgements of this life The second that in the wicked castawaies it argueth reprobation from grace and desperation of glory which if any man imagine of Christ it is rather furious blasphemie then erroneous follie Thirdly that in the godly the word vsed by Christ noteth either destitution of help or diminution of comfort in time of trouble but neither in Dauid who first spake them nor in Christ doe they with any shew conclude the true paines of the damned Fourthly that no construction must be made of this word that may decrease in Christ the fulnesse of truth and grace which neuer wanted in his Soule or draw him within the compasse of erroneous mistrusting or mistaking Gods fauour counsell towards him These grounds standing good which you shall neuer be able to remooue your warbling with those words to make them pliable to your will is but time and paines lost wind them which way you can by example of any Scripture you shall neuer wrest them to that height which you desire But because you are so far in loue with your owne fansies and my leasure now serueth me better then it did before let vs heare what kinde of forsaking you would faine fasten to Christes complaint on the Crosse. q Defenc. pag. 108. li. 1. Christ being now in the feeling of infinite paines inflicted
began to be afrayd and so doth the Geneuian translation of the Bible into English He began to be afraid and in great heauinesse Others more indifferent I shall not neede to repeate You take a course by your selfe that as you differ from all men in opinion so you will in translation of the words For 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you will haue to be c Defenc. pag. 123. astonished with feare though the rest content themselues to say he began to be afraid d Defenc. pag. 127. li. 6. The Text following doth inuincibly shew that he did fully come to the extreamitie of astonishment and began not onely For did he but begin when he swet clotted bloud trickling from his body to the ground also when an Angell was sent from heauen to refresh him and comfort him did he then but begin to be heauy Your fansies follow so fast without the Text that they run headlong against the Text. That Christ was afraid I doe not deny that he came to the extremitie of astonishment the Scriptures denie howsoeuer you whiske it after your whifling maner that you may seeme a man tried in all toyes The extremitie of astonishment is neither to do nor speake any thing but to be silent and as it were without sense as I haue formerly shewed Your selfe doth so describe it for you say Christ was astonished that is ouerwhelmed and all confounded in all the powers of his soule and senses of his bodie A man in this case hath no right vse of reason vnderstanding memory speach sight or hearing for the time Was Christ so doe your impertinent pushes prooue any such thing doe they not rather prooue the contrary did not Christ speake when he praied did he not rebuke his Disciples for their sleepinesse and admonish them to watch and pray that they entered not into temptation did he not fall to more earnest and vehement praier when his sweat beganne to looke like bloud which you in your learned conceit call clotted bloud The strong cries and teares which you mention doe they not plainly reprooue your supposed astonishment and cleerely confirme that Christ had all the powers of his soule and senses of his body in their full vse when he thus conuerted them with such zeale and contention of mind to this great worke of our redemption what Sadler or Shoemaker would conclude this to be the fulnesse of astonishment which by so manifest circumstances cited by your selfe is irrefragablely refuted and on you run as if you would ouerbeare all the world with such witles words and flaunting follies which only serue to bewray the weakenesse of your owne conceites Feare and sorow I admit in the soule of Christ and religious of either kind in the highest degree that mans nature is capable of A naturall feare of death in the flesh of Christ I likewise acknowledge but I make not these things which you meane the effects thereof What I receiue and what I refuse in our Sauiours agonie I haue so largely deliuered that I must not spend paper to repeate all againe Neither doth Ierom meane that Christ had a touch of feare and no farder as you most fondly misconster him and his wordes where he saith Christ began to be afraid but he meaneth Christ so farre admitted the pearcing and painefull affection of feare for a time required in so great a cause that it neither possessed him wholy nor continually to beare dominion ouer him or to worke any corruption in him which is vsuall in our affections You make your selfe merie with the beginning and neuer consider that Ierom thereby excludeth the heigth of our inordinate affections of feare and sorow such as you bring in when you all confound Christ in his whole humanitie both in all the powers of his soule and senses of his bodie E Defenc. pag. 127. li 33. As for Ierom if he denie this I must craue leaue to dissent from him And from you if you affirme that all wise and Christian Readers must dissent without your leaue For it is not onely false and directly repugnant to the text but it is extremely wicked and impious to bring that confusion which you mention and forgetfulnesse into all the powers of Christs soule and senses of his body f Ibid. li. 27. I thinke all to little sufficiently to expresse our Lords sufferings for vs. You must then thinke the doctrine pen of the holy Ghost to be most vnsufficient that continually clearely proposeth the sufferings of the son of God for our saluation without any such presumptuous and irreligious speaches And howsoeuer you commend your deuotion in g Ibid. li. 31. labouring to shew how Christ loued vs and to what basenesse of our nature he submitted himselfe for our sake learne first to content your selfe with that which the wisedome and iustice of God required of his sonnes humane nature and the trueth of God witnesseth in the Scriptures and so shall you honour the sufferings of Christ as you ought to doe and not deuise new helles and new damnations for him to please your violent fansiâ—…s And as new is your deuotion as strange if the whole Church of Christ before your time neâ—…er knew nor heard how Christ loued his and to what he submitted himselfe for their sakes but haue all this while erred in beleeuing following the direction of Gods spirit in the word of trueth and life since they wanted all knowledge of your hellish torments and confusion which you haue lately inuented for the soule of Christ as the more principall part of our redemption and without which the death of the Crosse to which he was obedient was nothing worth h Defenc. pag. 127. li. 38. Nay God forbid we should reioyce in any thing so much neither can we praise and magnifie him for any thing so highly as we may and ought for this extreme abasing of Christ for vs. There was neuer no hereticke that could not cast a shew of pietie vpon his erroneous pretences Satan doth transforme himselfe into an Angel of light and falshood alwayes seeketh to put on the vizard of trueth Is it not thankes worthie that the sonne of God would leaue the vse and honour of his diuine glory wherein hce was equall to his Father and take vnto him the shape of a seruant with all the basenesse and weaknesse of our flesh and with the shame and paine of his death on the crosse make satisfaction for our sinnes and by his blood redeeme vs to God which is the emptying of himselfe expressed by the Apostle in the place abused and misapplied by you but you must teach all this is skant worth thankes if Christ did not suffer in soule the second death which is the lake burning with fire and brimstone and euen the very paines of the damned that you might be indeede beholding vnto him And what if another as wise as you will say that all which Christ suffered heere on earth was
not worth thankes except he suffered in hell amongst the diuels where indeede are the paines of the damned which you haue lately deriued to the earth vpon your authoritie shall this impietie also goe for good religion because the more Christ suffered for vs the more we are and ought to be beholding vnto him we shall doe well to thinke that we can neuer giue thankes sufficient for the least of his mercies and not take vpon vs to determine what recompence God must exact of his sonne for our sinnes except he will be vniust which is a most pestilent presumption and intrusion vpon the secret counsels and iudgements of God but rather learne to lament our owne vnworthinesse and wickednesse and not delight or dwell in sinne which God so hated and abhorred that nothing could appease his wrath against our vncleannesse but onely the death and bloud of his owne Sonne i Defenc. pag. 128. li. 2. Remember your owne wordes out of Austen that there is in some men INSIPIENS HONORIFICENTIA a fond intent of honoring Christ. If there be any such surely this is one point thereof which you maintaine You applie Fathers as you doe Scriptures and call S. Austen foole as well as all the rest of the learned and auncient pillars of Christs Church because they reject your hellish confusion by which you ouerwhelme all the powers of Christs soule and senses of his bodie rather then you will yeeld him vnderstanding and remembrance in his prayers S. Austen saith indeed of the Manichees that were loath to confesse Christ truely died a bodily death on the crosse for feare of bringing him within the curse of a corporall death since the death of mans bodie first proceeded from Gods curse against sinne and therefore defended that Christ seemed there to die in outward shew but indeede did not die on the crosse S. Austen I say affirmeth that they with a foolish pretence of honour vnto Christ denied the loue of Christ towards vs and the trueth of Christ who professed that he should and would lay downe his life a ransome for many What is this to the paines of the damned or to the death of the soule of which S. Austen saith k August epist. 99. who dare auouch it and yet ment not so foolishly to honour Christ as thereby to denie or impugne the trueth of Christian religion l Defenc. pag. 128. li. 5. Master Caluine a worthy minister of Christ and a pillar of the Church is bold and saith we confesse indeede such is the basenesse and follie of Christes crosse that proude men cannot away with it If master Caluine meane as the Apostle doth that the heathen not knowing the wisedome power of God in the crosse of Christ counted it meere folâ—…y for him that was God to become man and in the bodie of his flesh to endure so vile and shamefull a death I account him no Christian that is not of that mind with master Caluine but if he call them all proud that did not like his new deuice of Christs suffering hell on the crosse which you haue stretched and drawen to many degrees and points aboue master Caluine then let him looke whether it be pride to beleeue the plaine and faire doctrine of trueth deliuered in the Scriptures as all the Fathers of Christes Church did or for men to adde thereunto their owne deuices as you and some others haue done For my part as I loue and honour master Caluines name and like well his resolutions where he contented himselfe in the grounds of doctrine and discipline to ioyne with the auncient and primatiue Church of Christ so when he leaueth them vpon some liking of his priuate deuices I must leaue him I so honour him that I will not for loue to him dishonour all antiquitie as if Christ had neuer any Church nor faithfull or learned minister therein before master Caluine And were it worth the while I could easily shew many great and maine differences betwixt master Caluines conceit of hell suffered in the soule of Christ and yours but because it hath occasioned and hatched your amplified error of an other hell from the immediate hand of God I will not trouble my selfe nor the Reader with sifting or censuring that which I am not bound to beleeue no more then I am yours till it be proued by more substantiall grounds then master Caluins good liking of it m Defenc. pag. 128. li. 10. In another place where I shewed from the more to the lesse how Christ might haue for the sodaine the powers of his mind astonished and yet no decay in him of faith nor obedience nor patience Like as there is not in a man a sleepe or amazed with a blow on the head hereupon you aske me scoffingly was Christ a sleepe or in a swoune Your answere was indeed drawen from the lesse to the more that is from the lesser vanity and falsity to the greater and therefore my question which you call a skoffe was a sound refutation of such ignorant misapplying of things impertinent vncoherent For what if a man in his sleepe or in a swoune retaine habituall faith obedience and patience doth that prooue that Christ awaked and well aduised might pray he knew not what and yet haue actuall faith obedience and patience If a man should babble in his sleepe or grone in a swoune before he recouer sense or vnderstanding would you cal that faith or praier though the habite of faith were then in him no more doth that example prooue any actuall faith obedience or patience in Christ at the time of his often and earnest praiers in the garden if all that while you make him all confounded in all the powers of his soule and so astonished that he could not or did not remember his Fathers oft reuealed and oft repeated will nor his owne person nor office who came vnto this houre of purpose to performe his Fathers will And therefore you must get you some better patterns for the vse and acts of faith obedience and patience in Christes astonishment then sleeping or swouning or els ech Christian Reader will soone perceaue you to be worse then a sleep when you dreame of a n Defenc pag. 128. li. 26. farre greater astonishment in Christ at the time of praiers then is to be seâ—…ne in any man els that euer was or shall be And yet you defend there might be actuall faith obedience and patience in Christ because men in sleep or in a swoune retaine the habits or gifts of those vertues o Defenc. pag. 128. li. 21. As you grant that amazednesse and astonishment commeth naturally from sorowes and feares so I thinke in Christ both the one and the other was in the extreamest and most violent degree that might be Then must you also thinke that Christ had not the free vse of speach memory and vnderstanding nor of sense nor motion for the time that he was in that amazednesse For it
mouth of this most insolent prater that I professe I mislike nothing the writings and resolutions of all these learned Protestants for as much as I haue seene and read of them which is as much as I could get touching our redemption by the death of Christ but teach the same that they taught and in my priuate moderation could beare the words of many others those onely excepted who elude the plainenesse of the Scriptures with the finenesse of their new deuices were it not that such hoblers as this is vpon such occasions will neuer leaue their fresh inuenting new meanes and causes of our redemption till they be they know not where Taking it therefore to be no euill way when men of great wits and gifts begin to turne to their owne deuices to see what the learned and auncient lights of Christes Church beleeued and deriued from the sacred Scriptures in those very points of trueth and our saluation I haue chosen rather to shew thee Christian Reader the generall and continuall consent of religious and reuerend antiquitie then to muster mens names of latter times and by disgracing or comparing their labours or learnings to set any man or Church in fire If so many learned and auncient fathers displease happilie some in respect of their priuate contrarie conceits I haue done my duety to declare the trueth and shewed my desire of peace whiles I neuer ment nor can yet bee drawen to impeach any mans name or credit howsoeuer I thinke that some of them swarue from the exact rule and sense of holy Scriptures in some few points as well of doctrine as of discipline THE SECOND PART WHAT IS MEANT BY THIS IN THE CREED THAT Christ descended to HADES or Hell I Shall not need good Christian Reader to spend much time or paines in this question An article of the Creed since it is That Christ descended into Hell and the same deriued from the Scriptures confessed by all Antiquitie and confirmed by authoritie of this whole Realme as well in the booke of Common prayer as in the Articles of Religion ratified by Prince and Parliament it is not for an English man directly to dispute against it howsoeuer retaining the words many doubt or denie the sense thereof I may be the shorter for that the Refuter insisteth onely on foure reasons against the descent of Christ to the place of the damned which our English Creed calleth Hell and the rest which he bringeth is like his former labor that is is nothing but a bolde pronouncing of his owne conceits and a false misconstruing of other mens sayings His first reason is If there be a good and sound generall reason in Christian faith that Christes soule leauing his bodie ascended vp to heauen and there remained till his resurrection and if there be no speciall reason of authoritie to the contrariè that his soule now descended thâ—…n surely euerie good Christian ought to beleeue that his soule ascended to heauen and descended not locally into hell But both these former parts are most true Not one of these parts is true and were they as they are not most true yet conclude they not your purpose That Christes soule leauing his bodie ascended vp to heauen is more than any Scripture expresly auoucheth The order of our Creed leadeth vs to beleeue that Christ rose the third day from the dead before he ascended to heauen That he was in Paradise the same day that he died his owne words to the penitent thiefe This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise may proue if we admit them to be spoken of Christes soule and not of his Deitie as Saint Austen and others expound them but that Christes soule departing from his bodie and returning to the same againe diuerted no whither nor spoiled powers and principalities nor made an open shew of them triumphing ouer them for this there is neither good reason in the Christian faith nor warrant in the word of God but onely your couragious assuming any thing that may seeme to support your cause On the other side what reasons there are generall or speciall for Christes descent to hell though you make light of them the Church of Christ from the beginning hath receiued and professed them not from the mouthes of men but from the witnesse of holy Scripture howsoeuer you turne and winde the words of the Holie Ghost to fit them to your appetite And what so great need is there of speciall reasons of authoritie to the contrarie Will not generall testimonies of the Scriptures serue to proue a trueth except the speciall circumstances of time and place and maner be therewithall expressed The analogie of faith requireth that the head should be there where the members were and where they remaine till their resurrection that there he tarie till his resurrection It seemeth also these texts will prooue it Where I am there also shall my seruant be I will that where I am there they also shall be with me Did you speake of the perpetuall abode of the head and members in one and the same place of ioy and blisse at Gods appointed time Your words had some dependance on Christes promise saying Where I am there also shall my seruants be but this speech of Christes is restrained to a certaine time in which it shall be verified as appeareth by that he sayd I goe to prepare you a place I will come againe and receiue you vnto my selfe that where I am there also you may be At his next comming he will take vs vnto himselfe and then shall we be euer with the Lord. This is the time when his promise shall be performed And though the Saints dissolued are now with Christ that is not only receiued to rest and ioy in Christ but also where the glory of Christ sitting at the right hand of his Father continually shineth to them and on them with full assurance of euerlasting glory prepared for them yet no analogie of faith nor any words by you brought do proue all the Saints to haue their bodies now in heauen because Christ hath his there or that the soules of the iust were after the speaking of these words alwayes here on earth where Christ was or that all the Saints rose with him as some did or that when and where Christ appeared after his resurrection all his Saints must or did appeare with him Much lesse is there any sequele from either that all the soules of the righteous must or did accompanie Christes soule going to Paradise and comming thence so that he could not descend to Hell to triumph ouer Satan and all the power of darkenesse but the spirits of the iust deceased must leaue Paradise and go thither with him I see not but that he promiseth heere his seruants euen a locall accompanying of him after this life and that also generally whither soeuer he went Then was Peter a slender Diuine who hearing these words from his Masters mouth did
priuatiâ—…e condition of death they wâ—…l â—…ile at your presumptuous folly If it be a matter of faith it â—… no phrase if we must beleeue as they teach that Christ after his death and buâ—…all deâ—…cended to hell you must shew vs some other hell to which Christ descended after death or els I conclude that the Lawes of this Land bind all men to beleeue and professe that Christ descended to that hell which the Scriptures acknowledge and not â—…hich your roling concâ—…its and totterâ—…ng tonguâ—… would establish against the warrant and word of God whose only will should be the line whose only trueth should be the guide whose only praise should be the end of all our professions and actions THE TABLE SERVING for their vse that are desirous with more ease to finde out the speciall contents of this booke as they are handled in their seuerall places A A Brahams bosom pag. 552 the place therof vnknowen 656 Aâ—…yssus in the Newe Testamenâ—… is hell 6â—…9 Aâ—…sed iâ—…nocents and penitâ—…nts â—…re not though hanged on a tree 238 Châ—…t was noâ—… Aâ—…sed how great soeuer his paines weâ—… 164. 165 S. Auâ—…s iâ—…dgement how Châ—…ist was accursed 241 Men câ—…n not be truly blâ—…ssed and accursâ—…d 253 Thâ—…t is â—…ccâ—…ed whâ—…ch God hateth 257 A sacâ—…ifice for sinne is not acâ—…ursed but accepted of God 258 Adam sinned aswell by bodie as by soule 183. 184 Was punished for his sinne after Christ was promised 147 What God threatened to Adam if he sinned 177. 178 Aeternall death fâ—…r whom Christ might feare 484 Against aeâ—…rnall death as due to him Christ could not pâ—…ay 378. 379 Aeternally God doth not punish one for anothers â—…ault 336 Affections are pâ—…infull to the soule 4â—…9 make sensible alterations in the heart 193. 194 Good affections of loue and zeale are not painfull 26 Euill affections are punishments of sinne 31 Inward affections make outward impressions in the heart 193 The heart is the seat of mans affections and actions  Christ couâ—…d represse and encrease his affections as he saw cause 400 The Aâ—…xe cleaueth to the Verbe and not to the Noune 216 Afflâ—…ctions of the godly are moderated punishmeÌ„ts 9. 10. 11. 17. manifest Gods displeasure against sinne 14â—… Agony what it is 339 Tâ—…e paines of hell were not the cause of Christs agony 58. 59 The causes that might be of Christs agony in the â—…ardeÌ„ 9â—… they crossâ—… not one another 97 I diâ—… not resolue what was the cause of Christs agony  The precise cause of Christs agony is not reuealed in the Scriptures 338. 346. though the general occasions may be coniectured 346 The parts of Christs agony 339 An agony proueth rather zeale then feare 339 Feare and sorrow the Scriptures witnesse in Christs agony 342 Submission to God and compassion on men the generall causes of Christs agony 347 The first cause coÌ„curring to Christs agony 347 The second 354 The third 370 The fourth 371 The fiâ—…th 375 The sixt 399 The Fathers determâ—…ne not the exact cause of Chrâ—…sts agony 371 How some vse the word agony 403 The different affâ—…ctions in Christs agony had different causes 558 Amazâ—…d neither Moses nor Paul were in their praâ—…ers 368 Christ was not amazed in his praier 369. 479 Christs praier prooueth hee was not then amazed 469 Christs â—…raier was no amaze 467 The Defender yeeldâ—…th perfect knowledge to Christ in his amazednes 481 Angry God was with our sinnes but not with Christs person 463 God is truely angry with his childrens sinnes 14 Angels sinned in their whole nature as men doe 197 Angels and good men receaued the bowing of the body 662 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth For as well as From. 501 The Apostle 1. Cor. 15. speaketh onely of the resurrection to glory 640. What his wordes Hâ—…b 5. inferre 498. 499. 500 Beleeuers may not iudge of the apostles words 89 More Apostles then twelue 651 The diuers reading and translating of the apostles words 1. Cor. 15. 55. 639 Astonishment what it is 441 What astonishment with feare is 468 Christ did not pray in astonishment 441 Why Christ might be somewhat astonished 468 Athanasius lewdly falsified by the Defender 275 taketh Hades for hell 569. 600. 601 What Athanasius speaketh of Adam the Defender referreth to Christ. 275 Augustine not ignorant of the Greeke tongue 608 his iudgement how Christ was accursed 241 keepeth the sense of Peters word Act. 2. 626 is grossely mistaken by the Defender 627  Christ tooke our naturall but not sinfull affections 330 Christ might beholde the power of Gods wrath and yet not feare the vengeance due to the wicked 348 Christ prayed for vs and against Satan 352 Christ knew the burden of our sinnes must lie on his shoulders 353 Christ and his members must drinke of one and the same cup. 353 Christ wept for the desolation of Ierusalem and sorowed for the reiection of the Iewes 354 Christ wept and sorrowed when he would 355 Christ grieued at the wilfulnesse of the Iewes 357 Christ sorowed that his death should be the ruine of the Iewes ibid. Christ chose the time and place to shew his vehement affections 358 Christ could not be content to be separated from God for vs. 367 Christ suffered the likenesse of our punishment not of our sinne 273 Christ was not ordained to be damned for vs. 364 Christ feared not death but his Fathers power 370 Christ might pray to haue the deepnes of his sorrowes comforted paines asswaged 374. 375 Christ might pray against the sting of death which he was to feele before he died 381 Christ could not pray against eternall death as due to him but vnto vs. 378. 379 Christ was most earnestly to aske what God had faithfully promised to graunt 384 Christ felt all our affections not of necessitie but according to his owne power and will 386 Christ shewed in the garden how mans soule strugleth with the panges of death 388 Christ was weake to comfort the weak but stronger then the strongest on the crosse 388. 390 Christ saw the whole danger from which hee should redeeme vs. 392. 393 Christ teacheth all his to feare Gods power as himselfe did in the garden 393. 394 Christ presented and dedicated his body in the garden which he sufâ—…ered on the crosse to be done to death 399 Christ died not in the garden 400 Christ could represse and increase his affections as he saw cause 400 Christ found no ioy in his paines but comfort in his hope 411 Christ emptied himselfe of glory not of grace 412 Christ citing the 1. vers of the 21. Psalme noteth the whole to appertaine to his passion 434 Christ was mortified in flesh but not in soule 507 Christ might passe from hell to heauen 550 Christ needed no long time to deâ—…cend to hel 551 Christ presented himselfe in euery place 564 Christ was to rise full conquerer of hell and death 668 How Christs death was like the godlies 7 How Christ laid downe his soule for