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A30412 A relation of a conference held about religion at London by Edw. Stillingfleet ... with some gentlemen of the Church of Rome. Stillingfleet, Edward, 1635-1699.; Burnet, Gilbert, 1643-1715. 1687 (1687) Wing B5863; ESTC R4009 107,419 74

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all Faith and Knowledg Now the chief Rule of making true Judgments is to see what Consequences certainly follow on what is laid before us If these be found absurd or impossible we must reject that from which they follow as such Further because no Man says every thing that can be thought or said to any Point but only such things as may be the Seeds of further Enquiry and Knowledg in their Minds to whom he speaks when any thing of great Importance is spoken all Men do naturally consider what Inferences arise out of what is said by a necessary Connexion And if these Deductions be made with due care they are of the same force and must be as true as that was from which they are drawn These being some of the Laws of Converse which every Man of common Sense must know to be true can any Man think that when God was revealing by inspired Men his Counsels to Mankind in Matters that concerned their eternal Happiness he would do it in any other way than any honest Man speaks to another that is plainly and dinstinctly There were particular Reasons why Prophetical Visions must needs be obscure but when Christ appeared on Earth tho many things were not to be fully opened till he had triumphed over Death and the Powers of Darkness yet his design being to bring Men to God what he spoke in order to that we must think he intended that they to whom he spake it might understand it otherwise why should he have spoken it to them And if he did intend they should understand him then he must have used such Expressions as were most proper for conveying this to their Understandings and yet they were of the meaner sort and of very ordinary Capacities to whom he addressed his Discourses If then such as they were might have understood him how should it come about that now there should be such a wondrous Mysteriousness in the Words of Christ and his Apostles For the same Reason by which it is proved that Christ designed to be understood and spake sutably to that design will conclude as strongly that the Discourses of the Apostles in Matters that concern our Salvation are also intelligible We have a perfect understanding of the Greek Tongue and tho some Phrases are not so plain to us which alter every Age and some other Passages that relate to some Customs Opinions or Forms of which we have no perfect Account left us are hard to be understood Yet what is of general and universal concern may be as well understood now as it was then for Sense is Sense still So that it must be acknowledged that Men may still understand all that God will have us believe and do in order to Salvation And therefore if we apply and use our Faculties aright joyning with an unprejudiced desire and search for Truth earnest Prayers that God by his Grace may so open our Understandings and present Divine Truths to them that we may believe and follow them Then both from the nature of our own Souls and from the design and end of Revelation we may be well assured that it is not only very possible but also very easy for us to find out Truth We know the pompous Objection against this is How comes it then that there are so many Errors and Divisions among Christians especially those that pretend the greatest Acquaintance with Scriptures To which the Answer is so obvious and plain that we wonder any body should be wrought on by so fallacious an Argument Does not the Gospel offer Grace to all Men to lead holy Lives following the Commandments of God And is not Grace able to build them up and make them perfect in every good Word and Work And yet how does Sin and Vice abound in the World If then the abounding of Error proves the Gospel does not offer certain ways to preserve us from it then the abounding of Sin will also prove there are no certain ways in the Gospel to avoid it Therefore as the Sins Mankind generally live in leave no Imputation on the Gospel so neither do the many Heresies and Schisms conclude that the Gospel offers no certain ways of attaining the Knowledg of all necessary Truth Holiness is every whit as necessary to see the Face of God as Knowledg is and of the two is the more necessary since low degrees of Knowledg with an high measure of Holiness are infinitely preferable to high degrees of Knowledg with a low measure of Holiness If then every Man have a sufficient help given him to be holy why may we not much rather conclude he has a sufficient help to be knowing in such things as are necessary to direct his Belief and Life which is a less thing And how should it be an Imputation on Religion that there should not be an infallible way to end all Controversies when there is no infallible way to subdue the corrupt Lusts and Passions of Men since the one is more opposite to the Design and Life of Religion than the other In sum there is nothing more sure than that the Scriptures offer us as certain ways of attaining the Knowledg of what is necessary to Salvation as of doing the Will of God But as the depravation of our Natures makes us neglect the Helps towards an holy Life so this and our other Corruptions Lusts and Interests make us either not to discern Divine Truth or not embrace it So that Error and Sin are the Twins of the same Parents But as every Man that improves his natural Powers and implores and makes use of the Supplies of the Divine Grace shall be enabled to serve God acceptably so that tho he fail in many things yet he continuing to the end in an habit and course of well-doing his Sins shall be forgiven and himself shall be saved So upon the same grounds we are assured that every one that applies his rational Faculties to the search of Divine Truth and also begs the Illumination of the Divine Spirit shall attain such Knowledg as is necessary for his eternal Salvation And if he be involved in any Errors they shall not be laid to his charge And from these we hope it will appear that every Man may attain all necessary Knowledg if he be not wanting to himself Now when a Man attains this Knowledg he acquires it and must use it as a rational Being and so must make Judgments upon it and draw Consequences from it in which he has the same Reason to be assured that he has to know the true meaning of Scripture and therefore as he has very good Reason to reject any meaning of a place of Scripture from which by a necessary Consequence great Absurdities and Impossibilities must follow So also he is to gather such Inferences as flow from a Necessary Connexion with the true meaning of any place of Scripture To instance this in the Argument we insisted on to prove the mean by which Christ is received
their former Substance Figure and Form and are both visible and palpable as they were before but they are understood to be that which they are made and are believed and venerated as being those things which they are believed to be And from thence he bids the Heretick compare the Image with the Original for the Type must be like the Truth and shews that Christ's Body retains its former Form and Figure and the Substance of his Body though it be now made Immortal and Incorruptible Thus he And having now set down very faithfully the Words of these Fathers we desire it may be considered that all these Words are used to the same Effect to prove the Reality of Christ's Body and the Distinction of the two Natures the Divine and the Human in him For though St. Chrysostom lived before Eutyches his days yet in this Point the Eutychians and the Apollinarists against whom he writes held Opinions so like others that we may well say all these Words of the Fathers we have set down are to the same purpose Now first it is evident that if Transubstantiation had been then believed there needed no other Argument to prove against the Eutychians that Christ had still a real Body but to have declared that his Body was corporally present in the Eucharist which they must have done had they believed it and not spoken so as they did since that alone well proved had put an end to the whole Controversy Further they could never have argued from the Visions and Apparitions of Christ to prove he had still a real Body for if it was possible the Body of Christ could appear under the accidents of Bread and Wine it was as possible the Divinity should appear under the accidents of an Humane Body Thirdly They could never have argued against the Eutychians as they did from the absurdity that followed upon such a substantial mutation of the Humane Nature of Christ into his Divinity if they had believed this substantial conversion of the Elements into Christ's Body which is liable unto far greater Absurdities And we can as little doubt but the Eutychians had turned back their Arguments on themselves with these Answers if that Doctrine had been then received It is true it would seem from the last Passage of Theodoret that the Eutychians did believe some such change but that could not be for they denied the Being of the Body of Christ and so could not think any thing was changed into that which they believed was not Therefore we are to suppose him arguing from some commonly received expressions which the Father explains In fine The design of those Fathers being to prove that the two Natures might be united without the change of either of their substances in the Person of Christ it had been inexcusable Folly in them to have argued from the sacramental Mysteries being united to the Body and Blood of Christ if they had not believed they retained their former Substance for had they believed Transubstantiation what a goodly Argument had it been to have said Because after the Consecration the Accidents of Bread and Wine remain therefore the Substance of the Humanity remained still tho united to the Divine Nature in Christ Did ever Man in his Wits argue in this fashion Certainly these four Bishops whereof three were Patriarchs and one of these a Pope deserved to have been hissed out of the World as Persons that understood not what it was to draw a Consequence if they had argued so as they did and believed Transubstantiation But if you allow them to believe as certainly they did that in the Sacrament the real Substances of Bread and Wine remained tho after the Sanctification by the Operation of the Holy Ghost they were the Body and Blood of Christ and were to be called so then this is a most excellent illustration of the Mystery of the Incarnation in which the Human Nature retains its proper and true Substance tho after the Union with the Divinity Christ be called God even as he was Man by virtue of his Union with the Eternal Word And this shews how unreasonable it is to pretend that because Substance and Nature are sometimes used even for accidental Qualities they should be therefore understood so in the cited places for if you take them in that sense you destroy the force of the Argument which from being a very strong one will by this means become a most ridiculous Sophisin Yet we are indeed beholden to those that have taken pains to shew that Substance and Nature stand often for accidental Qualities for tho that cannot be applied to the former places yet it helps us with an excellent Answer to many of those Passages with which they triumph not a little Having so far considered these Four Fathers we shall only add to them the Definition of the Seventh General Council at Constantinople Ann. 754. Christ appointed us to offer the Image of his Body to wit the substance of the Bread The Council is indeed of no Authority with these we deal with But we do not bring it as a Decree of a Council but as a Testimony that so great a number of Bishops did in the Eighth Century believe That the substance of the Bread did remain in the Eucharist and that it was only the Image of Christ's Body and if in this Definition they spake not more consonantly to the Doctrine of the former Ages than their Enemies at Nice did let what has been set down and shall be yet adduced declare And now we advance to the third Branch of our first Assertion that the Fathers believed that the Consecrated Elements did nourish our Bodies and the Proofs of this will also give a further Evidence to our former Position that the substance of the Elements does remain And it is a Demonstration that these Fathers who thought the Sacrament nourished our Bodies could not believe a Transubstantiation of the Bread and Wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. For the proof of this Branch we desire the following Testimonies be considered First Iustin Martyr as was already cited not only calls the Eucharist our Nourishment but formally calls it that Food by which our Flesh and Blood through its transmutation into them are nourished Secondly Irenaeus Lib. 5. adv Heret c. 2. proving the Resurrection of the Body by this Argument That our Bodies are fed by the Body and Blood of Christ and that therefore they shall rise again he hath these Words He confirmed that Cup which is a Creature to be His Blood by which He encreases our Blood and the Bread which is a Creature to be His Body by which He encreases our Body And when the mixed Cup and the Bread receive the Word of God it becomes the Eucharist of the Body and Blood of Christ by which the substance of our Flesh is encreased and subsists How then do they deny the Flesh to be capable of the gift of God which is Eternal Life
any account of them as being Fallible and Uncertain and so they can never secure us from Error nor be a just ground to found our Faith of any Proposition so proved upon Therefore no Proposition thus proved can be acknowledged an Article of Faith This is the breadth and length of their Plea which we shall now examine And first If there be any Strength in this Plea it will conclude against our submitting to the express Words of Scripture as forcibly Since all words how formal soever are capable of several Expositions Either they are to be understood literally or figuratively either they are to be understood positively or interrogatively With a great many other Varieties of which all Expressions are capable So that if the former Argument have any force since every place is capable of several meanings except we be infallibly sure which is the true meaning we ought by the same parity of Reason to make no account of the most express and formal Words of Scripture from which it is apparent that what noise soever these Men make of express Words of Scripture yet if they be true to their own Argument they will as little submit to these as to Deductions from Scripture Since they have the same Reason to question the true meaning of a place that they have to reject an Inference and Deduction from it And this alone may serve to satisfy every body that this is a Trick under which there lies no fair dealing at all But to answer the Argument to all Mens Satisfaction we must consider the Nature of the Soul which is a reasonable Being whose chief Faculty is to discern the Connexion of things and to draw out such Inferences as flow from that Connexion Now though we are liable to great Abuses both in our Judgments and Inferences yet if we apply thefe Faculties with due care we must certainly acquiesce in the result of such reasonings otherwise this being God's Image in us and the Standard by which we are to try things God has given us a false Standard which when we have with all possible care managed yet we are still exposed to Fallacies and Errors This must needs reflect on the Veracity of that God that has made us of such a Nature that we can never be reasonably assured of any thing Therefore it must be acknowledged that when our Reasons are well prepared according to those eternal Rules of Purity and Vertue by which we are fitted to consider of Divine Matters and when we carefully weigh things we must have some certain means to be assured of what appears to us And though we be not Infallible so that it is still possible for us by Precipitation or undue Preparation to be abused into Mistakes yet we may be well assured that such Connexions and Inferences as appear to us certain are infallibly true If this be not acknowledged then all our Obligation to believe any thing in Religion will vanish For that there is a God That he made all things and is to be acknowledged and obeyed by his Creatures That our Souls shall out-live their Union with our Bodies and be capable of Rewards and Punishments in another state That Inspiration is a thing possible That such or such Actions were above the Power of Nature and were really performed In a word all the Maxims on which the belief either of Natural Religion or Revealed is founded are such as we can have no certainty about them and by consequence are not obliged to yield to them if our Faculty of reasoning in its clear Deductions is not a sufficient Warrant for a sure belief But to examin a little more home their beloved Principle that their Church cannot err Must they not prove this from the Divine Goodness and Veracity from some Passages of Scripture from Miracles and other extraordinary things they pretend do accompany their Church Now in yielding assent to this Doctrine upon these Proofs the Mind must be led by many Arguments through a great many Deductions and Inferences Therefore we are either certain of these Deductions or we are not If we are certain this must either be founded on the Authority of the Church expounding them or on the strength of the Arguments Now we being to examine this Authority not having yet submitted to it this cannot determine our Belief till we see good Cause for it But in the discerning this good Cause of believing the Church Infallible they must say that an uncontroulable evidence of Reason is ground enough to fix our Faith on or there can be no certain ground to believe the Church Infallible So that it is apparent we must either receive with a firm persuasion what our Souls present to us as uncontroulably true or else we have no reason to believe there is a God or to be Christians or to be as they would have us Romanists And if it be acknowledged there is cause in some Cases for us to be determined by the clear evidence of Reason in its Judgments and Inferences Then we have this Truth gained that our Reasons are capable of making true and certain Inferences and that we have good Cause to be determined in our Belief by these and therefore Inferences from Scripture ought to direct our Belief Nor can any thing be pretended against this but what must at the same time overthrow all Knowledg and Faith and turn us sceptical to every thing We desire it be in the next place considered what is the end and use of Speech and Writing which is to make known our Thoughts to others those being artificial signs for conveying them to the understanding of others Now every Man that speaks pertinently as he designs to be understood so he chooses such Expressions and Arguments as are most proper to make himself understood by those he speaks to and the clearer he speaks he speaks so much the better And every one that wraps up his meaning in obscure words he either does not distinctly apprehend that about which he discourses or does not design that those to whom he speaks should understand him meaning only to amuse them If likewise he say any thing from which some absurd Inference will easily be apprehended he gives all that hear him a sufficient ground of Prejudice against what he says For he must expect that as his Hearers senses receive his Words or Characters so necessarily some Figure or Notion must be at th● same time imprinted on their Imagination or presented to their Reason this being the end for which he speaks and the more genuinely that his words express his meaning the more certainly and clearly they to whom he directs them apprehend it It must also be acknowledged that all Hearers must necessarily pass Judgments on what they hear if they do think it of that importance as to examin it And this they must do by that natural Faculty of making Judgments and Deductions the certainty whereof we have proved to be the Foundation of
with the Law or answers to Nature he must consider the genuineness of Faith the firmness of Hope the sincerity of Love what is liable to no Reproach what is beyond Envy and worthy of Favour all which things concur in Pious Meditations And concludes thus The sum of all is he that receives any words and does not consider the meaning of them how can he understand those that seem to contradict others where shall he find a fit answer How shall he satisfie those that interrogate him or defend that which is written These passages are out of the first Discourse what follows is out of the second In the beginning he says Though the Devil has invented many grievous Doctrines yet he doubts if any former age brought forth any thing like that then broached Former Heresies had their own proper errors but this that was now invented renewed all others and exceeded all others Which says he receives simply what is said but does not enquire what is convenient or inconvenient But shall I believe without judgment and not enquire what is possible convenient decent acceptable to God answerable to Nature agreeable to Truth or is a consequence from the scope or suitable to the mystery or to piety or what outward reward or inward fruit accompanies it or must I reckon on none of these things But the cause of all our adversaries errors is that with their ears they hear words but have no understanding of them in their hearts for all of them and names divers shun a trial that they be not convinced and at length shews what absurdities must follow on such a method Instancing those places about which the Contest was with the Arrians such as these words of Christ The Father is greater than I. And shews what apparent contradictions there are if we do not consider the true sense of places of Scripture that seem contradictory which must be reconciled by finding their true meaning and concludes So we shall either perswade or overcome our adversary so we shall shew that the Holy Scripture is consonant to its self so we shall justly publish the glory of the Mystery and shall treasure up such a full assurance as we ought to have in our souls we shall neither believe without the Word nor speak without Faith Now I challenge every Reader to consider if any thing can be devised that more formally and more nervously overthrows all the pretences brought for his appeal to the express words of Scripture And here I stop for though I could carry it further and shew that other Hereticks shrowded themselves under the same pretext yet I think all Impartial Readers will be satisfied when they find this was an artifice of the first four grand Heresies condemned by the first four General Councils And from all has been said it is apparent how oft this very pretence has been baffled by Universal Councils and Fathers Yet I cannot leave this with the Reader without desiring him to take notice of a few particulars that deserve to be considered The first is that which these Gentlemen would impose on us has been the Plea of the greatest Hereticks have been in the Church Those therefore who take up these weapons of Hereticks which have been so oft blunted and broken in their hands by the most Universal Councils and the most Learned Fathers of the Catholick Church till at length they were laid aside by all men as unfit for any service till in this age some Jesuits took them up in defence of an often baffled Cause do very unreasonably pretend to the Spirit or Doctrine of Catholicks since they tread a path so oft beaten by all Hereticks and abhorred by all the Orthodox Secondly We find the Fathers always begin their answering this pretence of Hereticks by shewing them how many things they themselves believed that were no-where written in Scripture And this I believe was all the ground M. W. had for telling us in our Conference that St Austin bade the Heretick read what he said I am confident that Gentleman is a man of Candour and Honour and so am assured he would not have been guilty of such a fallacy as to have cited this for such a purpose if he had not taken it on trust from second hands But he who first made use of it if he have no other Authority of St. Austin's which I much doubt cannot be an honest man who because St. Austin to shew the Arrians how unjust it was to ask words for every thing they believed urges them with this that they could not read all that they believed themselves would from that conclude St. Austin thought every Article of Faith must be read in so many words in Scripture This is such a piece of Ingenuity as the Jesuits used in the Contest about St. Austin's Doctrine concerning the efficacy of Grace When they cited as formal passages out of St. Austin some of the Objections of the Semipelagians which he sets down and afterwards answers which they brought without his answers as his words to shew he was of their side But to return to our purpose from this method of the Fathers we are taught to turn this appeal to express words back on those who make use of it against us and to ask them where do they read their Purgatory Sacrifice of the Mass Transubstantiation the Pope's Supremacy with a great many more things in the express words of Scripture Thirdly We see the peremptory answer the Fathers agree in is that we must understand the Scriptures and draw just consequences from them and not stand on words or phrases but consider things And from these we are furnished with an excellent answer to every thing of this nature they can bring against us It is in those great Saints Athanasius Hilary Gregory Nazianzen Austin and Theodoret that they will find our answer as fully and formally as need be and to them we refer our selves But Fourthly To improve this beyond the particular occasion that engaged us to all this enquiry we desire it be considered that when such an objection was made which those of the Church of Rome judge is strong to prove we must rely on somewhat else than Scripture either on the Authority of the Church or on the certainty of Tradition The first Councils and Fathers had no such apprehension All considering men chiefly when they are arguing a nice Point speak upon some hypothesis or opinion with which they are prepossessed and must certainly discourse consequently to it To instance it in this particular If an Objection be made against the drawing consequences from Scripture since all men may be mistaken and therefore they ought not to trust their own reasonings A Papist must necessarily upon his hypothesis say it is true any man may err but the whole Church either when assembled in a Council with the Holy Ghost in the midst of them or when they convey down from the Apostles through age to age the Tradition of the