speake of the Written Word and so lie crosse to Stapleton as is mention'd But to returne If A. C. will he may but I cannot believe That a Definition of the Church which is made by the expresse Word of God and another which is made without so much as a probable Testimony of it or a cleare Deduction from it are made firme to us by one and the same Divine Revelation Nay I must say in this case that the one Determination is firme by Divine Revelation but the other hath no Divine Revelation at all but the Churches Authority onely 2. Secondly I cannot believe neither That all Determinations of the Church are sufficiently applied by one and the same full Authority of the Church For the Authority of the Church though it be of the same fulnesse in regard of it self and of the Power which it commits to Generall Councels lawfully called yet it is not alwayes of the same fulnesse of knowledge and sufficiency nor of the same fulnesse of Conscience and integrity to apply Dogmata Fidei that which is Dogmaticall in the Faith For instance I thinke you dare not deny but the Councell of Trent was lawfully called and yet I am of opinion that few even of your selves believe that the Councell of Trent hath the same fulnesse with the Councell of Nice in all the fore-named kinds or degrees of fulnesse Thirdly suppose That all Determinations of the Church are made firme to us by one and the same Divine Revelation and sufficiently applied by one and the same full Authority yet it will not follow that they are all alike Fundamentall in the Faith For I hope A. C. himselfe will not say that the Definitions of the Church are in better condition than the Propositions of Canonicall Scripture Now all Propositions of Canonicall Scripture are alike firme because they all alike proceed from Divine Revelation but they are not all alike Fundamentall in the Faith For this Proposition of Christ to S. Peter and S. Andrew Follow me and I will make you fishers of men a S. Matth. 4. 19 is as firm a Truth as that which he delivered to his Disciples That he must die and rise againse the third day b S. Matth. 16. 21 For both proceed from the same Divine Revelation out of the mouth of our Saviour and both are sufficiently applied by one and the same full Authority of the Church which receives the whole Gospell of S. Matthew to be Canonicall and infallible Scripture And yet both these Propositions of Christ are not alike Fundamentall in the Faith For I dare say No man shall be saved in the ordinary way of salvation that believes not the Death and the Resurrection of Christ. And I believe A. C. dares not say that No man shall be saved into whose Capacity it never came that Christ made S. Peter and Andrew fishers of men And yet should he say it nay should he shew it sub annulo Piscatoris no man will believe it that hath not made shipwrack of his Common Notions Now if it be thus betweene Proposition and Proposition issuing out of Christ's own Mouth I hope it may well be so also betweene even Iust and True Determinations of the Church that supposing them alike true and firme yet they shall not be alike Fundamentall to all mens beliefe F. Secondly I required to know what Points the Bishop would account Fundamentall He said all the Points of the Creed were such B. Against this I hope you except not For § 11 since the a Tertull. Apol. contra Gentes c. 47. de veland virg c. 1. S. August Serm. 15. de Temp. cap. 2. Ruffin in Symb. apud Cyprian p. 357. Fathers make the Creed the Rule of Faith b Alb. Mag. in 1. Sent. D. 11. A. 7. since the agreeing sense of Scripture with those Articles are the two Regular Precepts by which a Divine is governed about the Faith since your owne Councell of c Concil Trident Sess. 3. Trent decrees That it is that Principle of Faith in which all that professe Christ doe necessarily agree Fundamentum firmum unicum not the firme alone but the onely Foundation since it is Excommunication d Bonavent ibid. Dub. 2. 3. in literam ipso jure for any man to contradict the Articles contained in that Creed since the whole Body of the Faith is so contained in the Creed as that the e Thom. 2. 2ae q. 1. Art 7. c. substance of it was believ'd even before the comming of Christ though not so expresly as since in the number of the Articles since f Bellar. L. 4. de Verb. Dei non Script c. 11. §. Primum est Bellarmine confesses That all things simply necessary for all mens salvation are in the Creed and the Decalogue what reason can you have to except And yet for all this everything Fundamentall is not of a like nearenesse to the Foundation nor of equall Primenesse in the Faith And my granting the Creed to be Fundamentall doth not deny but that there are g Tho. 2. 2ae q. 1. A. 7. C. quaedam prima Credibilia certaine prime Principles of Faith in the bosome whereof all other Articles lay wrapped and folded up One of which since Christ is that of S. h 1. S. Iohn 4. 2. Iohn Every spirit that confesseth Iesus Christ come in the flesh is of God And one both before the comming of Christ and since is that of S. Paul i Heb. 11. 6. He that comes to God must believe that God is and that he is a rewarder of them that seeke him Here A. C. tels you That either I must meane that those Points are onely Fundamentall which are expressed A. C. p. 46. in the Creed or those also which are infolded If I say those onely which are expressed then saith he to believe the Scriptures is not Fundamentall because 't is not expressed If I say those which are infolded in the Articles then some unwritten Church Traditions may be accounted Fundamentall The truth is I said and say still that all the Points of the Apostles Creed as they are there expressed are Fundamentall And therein I say no more than some of your best Learned have said before me But I never either said or meant That they onely are Fundamentall That they are a Conc. Trident. Sess. 3. Fundamentum unicum the only Foundation is the Councell of Trent's 't is not mine Mine is That the Beliefe of Scripture to be the Word of God and infallible is an equall or rather a preceding Prime Principle of Faith with or to the whole Body of the Creed And this agrees as before I told the Iesuite with one of your owne great Masters Albertus Magnus b In 1. Sent. D. 11. A. 7. Regula Fidei est concors Scriptururum sensus cum Articulis Fidei Quia illis duobus regularibus Praeceptis regitur Theologus who is not farre from
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is reproach or infamie So that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies the holding of the entire Faith in such holinesse of life and conversation as is without all infamy and reproach That is as our English renders that Creed exceeding well Which Faith unlesse a man do keep whole and * Sic Ecclesia dicitur 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Eph. 5. 27. in veteri Glossario Immaculatus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 undefiled even with such a life as Momus himselfe shall not be able to carpe at So Athanasius who certainly was passing able to expresse himselfe in his owne language in the beginning of that his Creed requires That we keepe it entire without diminution and undefiled without blame And at the end that we believe it faithfully without wavering But Inviolate is the mistaken word of the old Interpreter and with no great knowledge made use of by A. C. And then fourthly though this be true Divinity that he which hopes for salvation must believe the whole Creed and in the right sense too if he be able to comprehend it yet I take the true and first meaning of Inviolate could Athanasius his word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 have signified so not to be the holding of the true sense but not to offer violence or a forced sense or meaning upon the Creed which every man doth not that yet believes it not in a true sense For not to believe the true sense of the Creed is one thing But 't is quite another to force a wrong sense upon it Fiftly a reason would be given also why A. C. is so earnest for the whole faith and bawkes the word which goes with it which is holy or undefiled For Athanasius doth alike exclude from salvation those which keepe not the Catholike Faith holy as well as these which keepe it not whole I doubt this was to spare many of his †§. 33. Nu. 6. holy Fathers the Popes who were as farre as any the very lewdest among men without exception from keeping the Catholike Faith holy Sixtly I agree to the next part of his Exposition That a man that will be saved must believe the whole Creed for the true formall reason of divine Revelation For upon the Truth of God thus revealed by himselfe lies the Infallible certainty of the Christian Faith But I do not grant that this is within the Compasse of S. Athanasius his word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nor of the word Inviolate But in that respect 't is a meere straine of A. C. And then lastâ—…y though the whole Catholike Church be sufficient in applying this to us and our Beliefe not our Understanding which A. C. is at A. C. p. 70. againe yet Infallible She is not in the proposall of this Revelation to us by every of her Pastours Some whereof amongst you as well as others neglect or forget at least to feed Christ's sheepe as Christ and his Church hath fed them But now that A. C. hath taught us as you see the meaning of S. Athanasius in the next place he tels us A. C. p. 70. That if we did believe any one Article we finding the same formall Reason in all and applied sufficiently by the same meanes to all wou'd easily believe all Why surely we do not believe any one Article onely but all the Articles of the Christian Faith And we believe them for the same formall Reason in all namely Because they are revealed from and by God and sufficiently applied in his Word and by his Churches Ministration But so long as they do not believe all in this sort saith A. C. Looke you He A. C. p. 70. tels us we do not believe all when we professe we do Is this man become as God that he can better tell what we believe them we our selves Surely we do believe all and in that sort too Though I believe were S. Athanasius himselfe alive againe and a plaine man should come to him and tell him he believed his Creed in all and every particular he would admit him for a good Catholike Christian though he were not able to expresse to him the formall reason of that his beliefe Yea but saith A. C. while they will as all Heretickes doe make choice of what they will and what they A. C. p. 70. will not believe without relying upon the Infallible Authority of the Catholike Church they cannot have that one saving Faith in any one Article Why but whatsoever Hereticks doe we are not such nor do we so For they which believe all the Articles as once againe I tell you we do make no choice And we do relie upon the Infallible Authority of the Word of God and the whole Catholike Church And therefore we both can have and have that one saving Faith which believes all the Articles entirely though we cannot believe that any particular Church is infallible And yet againe A. C. will not thus be satisfied but on he goes and adds That although we believe the same A. C. p. 71. truth which other good Catholikes doe in some Articles yet not believing them for the same formall reason of Divine Revelation sufficiently applied by Infallible Church Authority c. we cannot be said to have one and the same Infallible and Divine Faith which other good Catholike Christians have who believe the Articles for this formall Reason sufficiently made knowne to them not by their owne fancy nor the fallible Authority of humane deductions but by the Infallible Authority of the Church of God If A. C. will still say the samething I must still give the same answer First he confesses we believe the same Truth in some Articles I pray marke his phrase the same Truth in some Articles with other good Catholike Christians so farre his pen hath told Truth against his will for he doth not I wot well intend to call us Catholikes and yet his pen being truer then himselfe hath let it fall For the word other cannot be so used as here it is but that we as well as they must be good Catholikes For he that shall say the old Romans were valiant as well as other men supposes the Romans to be valiant men And he that shall say The Protestants believe some Articles as well as other good Catholikes must in propriety of speech suppose them to be good Catholikes Secondly as we do believe those some Articles so do we believe them and all other Articles of Faith for the same formall reason and so applied as but just * §. 38. Nu. 13. before I have expressed Nor do we believe any one Article of Faith by our own fancy or by fallible Authority of humane deductions but next to the Infallible Authority of God's Word we are guided by his Church But then A. C. steps into a Conclusion whither we cannot A. C. p. 71. follow him For he sayes that the Articles to be believed must be sufficiently made
other And even in those Fundamentall Things in which the Whole Vniversall Church neither doth nor can Erre yet even there her Authority is not Divine because She delivers those supernatural Truths by Promise of Assistance yet tyed to Meanes And not by any speciall Immediate Revelation which is necessarily required to the very least Degree of Divine Authority And therefore our †Hook l. 3. §. 9 VVorthies do not only say but prove That all the Churches Constitutions are of the nature of Humane Law a Stapl. Relect. Con. 4. q. 3. A. 1. 2. And some among you not unworthy for their Learning prove it at large That all the Churches Testimony or voyce or Sentence call it what you will is but suo modo or aliquo modo not simply but in a manner Divine Yea and A. C. himselfe A. C. p. 51. after all his debate comes to that and no further That the Tradition of the Church is at least in some sort Divine and Infallible Now that which is Divine but in a sort or manner bee it the Churches manner is aliquo modo non Divina in a sort not Divine But this Great Principle of Faith the Ground and Proofe of whatsoever else is of Faith cannot stand firme upon a Proofe that is and is not in a manner and not in a manner Divine As it must if we have no other Anchor then the Externall Tradition of the Church to lodge it upon and hold it steddy in the midst of those waves which daily beate upon it Now here A. C. confesses expresly That to prove the Bookes of Scripture to bee Divine we must bee A. C. p. 49. warranted by that which is Infallible Hee confesses farther that there can be no sufficient Infallible Proofe of A. C. p. 50. this but Gods Word written or unwritten And he gives his Reason for it Because if the Proofe be meerely Humane and Fallible the Science or Faith which A. C. p. 51. is built upon it can be no better So then this is agreed on by mee yet leaving other men to travell by their owne way so bee they can come to make Scripture thereby Infallible That Scripture must bee knowne to bee Scripture by a sufficient Infallible Divine Proofe And that such Proofe can be nothing but the Word of God is agreed on also by me Yea and agreed on for me it shall be likewise that Gods Word may be written and unwritten For Cardinall †Verbum Dei non est tale nec habet ullam Authoritatem quia scriptum est in membranis sed quia à Deo profectum est Bellar. l. 4 de Verb. Dei 2 §. Ecclesiasticae Traditiones Bellarmine tells us truly that it is not the writing or printing that makes Scripture the Word of God but it is the Prime Vnerring Essentiall Truth God himselfe uttering and revealing it to his Church that makes it Verbum Dei the Word of God And this Word of God is uttered to men either immediately by God himselfe Father Sonne and Holy Ghost and so 't was to the Prophets and Apostles Or mediately either by Angels to whom God had spoken first and so the Law was given * Lex ordinata per Angelos in manu 〈◊〉 Gal. 3 19. Gal. 3. and so also the Message was delivered to the Blessed Virgin a S. Luk. 1. 0. S. Luke 1. or by the Prophets b The Holy Ghost c. which spake by the Prophets in Symb. Nicen. and Apostles and so the Scriptures were delivered to the Church But their being written gave them no Authority at all in regard of themselves VVritten or unwritten the VVord was the same But it was written that it might bee the better c Nam Psiudoprophetae etiam viventibus adâ—…c Apostolis multas fingebant corruptelas sub â—…oc praetextu titulo quasi ab Apostolis vivà veccessent traditae propter hanc ipsâ—…m causam Apostoli Doctrinam suam coeperunt Literis comprehendere Ecclesiis commendare Chem. Exam. Concil Trid. de Traditionibus sub octavo genere Tradit And so also Iansâ—…n Comment in S. Ioh 5. 47. Sicut enim firmius est quod mandatur Literis ita est culpabiliâ—…s majus non credere Scriptis quam non credere Verbis preserved and continued with the more integrity to the use of the Church and the more faithfully in our d Labilis est memoria ideo indigâ—…mus Scripturâ Dicendum quod verum est sed hoc non habet nisi ex inundantia peccatorum Hent a Gand. Sum. p. 1 Ar. 8. q. 4. sine Christus ipse de pectore morituro Testamentum transfert in tabulas diù duraturas Optat. L 5. Christus ipse non transtulit sed ex Optati sew entiâ Ejus Inspiratione si non Iussâ—… Apostoli transtulerunt Memories And you have been often enough told were truth and not the maintaining of a party the thing you seek for that if you will shew us any such unwritten word of God delivered by his Prophets and Apostles we will acknowledge it to be Divine and Infallible So written or unwritten that shall not stumble us But then A. C. must not tell us at least not thinke we shall swallow it into our Beliefe that every thing which he sayes is the unwritten VVord of God is so indeed I know Bellarmine hath written a whole Booke * Bellar. L. 4. De Verbo Dei non script De Verbo Dei non scripto of the Word of God not written in which he handles the Controversie concerning Traditions And the Cunning is to make his weaker Readers believe that all that which He and his are pleased to call Traditions are by and by no lesse to be received and honoured then the unwritten word of God ought to be Whereas 't is a thing of easie knowledge That the unwritten VVord of God and Tradition are not Convertible Termes that is are not all one For there are many Vnwritten VVords of God which were never delivered over to the Church for ought appeares And there are many Traditions affirmed at least to be such by the Church of Rome which were never warranted by any unwritten Word of God First That there are many unwritten words of God which were never delivered over to the Church is manifest For when or where were the words which Christ spake to his Apostles during the a Acts 1. 3. forty dayes of his Conversing with them after his Resurrection first delivered over to the Church or what were the unwritten Words He then spake If neither Heâ—… nor His Apostles or Evangelists have delivered them to the Church the Church ought not to deliver them to her Children Or if she doe b Annunciare aliquid Christianis Catholicis praeter id quod acceperunt nunquam licuit nusquam licet nunquam licebit Vincen. Lir. c. 14. Et praeâ—…ipit nihil aliu â—…innovari nisi quo 〈◊〉
be because it rests upon Divine Authority which cannot deceive whereas Knowledge or at least he that thinks he knowes is not ever certaine in Deductions from Principles †§. 16. 〈◊〉 13. But the Evidence is not so deere For it is c Heb. 11. 1. of things not seene in regard of the Object and in regard of the Subject thatsees it is in d 1 Cor. 13. 12. And A. C. confesses p. 52. That this very thing in Question may be known infallibly when 't is knowne but obscurely Et Scotus in 3. Dist. 23 q. 1. fol. 41. B. Hoc modo sacile est videre quomodo â—…ides est cum aenigmate obscuritate Quia Habitus Fidei non credit Articulum esse verum ex Evidentia Objâ—…cti sed propter hoc quod assentit veracitati infâ—…ndentis Habitum in hoc revelantis Credibilia aenigmate in a Glasse or darke speaking Now God doth not require a full Demonstrative Knowledge in us that the Scripture is his Word and therefore in his Providence hath kindled in it no Light for that but he requires our Faith of it and such a certaine Demonstration as may fit that And for that he hath left sufficient Light in Scripture to Reason and Grace meeting where the soule is morally prepared by the Tradition of the Church unlesse you be of Bellarmine's e Bellar. l. 3. de Eccles. c. 14. Credere 〈◊〉 esse divinaâ—… Scripturas non est omninò necessarium ad salutem I will not breake my Discourse to risâ—…e this speech of Bellarmine it is bad enough in the best sense that favour it selfe can give it For if he meane by omninò that it is not altogether or simply necessary to believe there is Divine Scripture and a written Word of God that 's false that being granted which is among all Christians That there is a Scripture And God would never have given a Supernaturall unnecessary thing And if he meanes by omninò that it is not in any wise necessary then it is sensibly false For the greatest upholders of Tradition that ever were made the Scripture very necessary in all the Ages of the Church So it was necessary because it was given and given because God thought it necessary Besides upon Romane Grounds this I thinke will follow That which the Tradition of the present Church delivers as necessary to believe is omninò necessary to salvation But that there are Divine Scriptures the Tradition of the present Church delivers as necessary to believe Therefore to believe there are Divine Scriptures is omninò be the sense of the word what it can necessary to Salvation So Bellarmine is herein foule and unable to stand upon his owne ground And he is the more partly because he avouches this Proposition for truth after the New Testament written And partly because he might have seene the state of this Proposition carefully examined by Gandavo and distinguished by Times Sum. p. 1. A. 8. q. 4. fine Opinion That to believe there are any Divine Scriptures is not omninò necessary to Salvation The Authority which you pretend against this is out of a Lib. 1. §. 14. Hooker Of things necessary the very chiefest is to know what Bookes we are bound to esteeme Holy which Point is confessed impossible for the Scripture it selfe to teach Of this b Protest Apol. Tract 1. §. 10. N. 3. Brierly the Store-house for all Priests that will be idle and yet seeme well read tels us That c L. 2. §. 4. Hooker gives a very sensible Demonstration It is not the Word of God which doth or possibly can assure us that wee doe well to thinke it is His Word for if any one Booke of Scripture did give Testimony to all yet still that Scripture which giveth credit to the rest would require another to give credit unto it Nor could we ever come to any pause to rest our assurance this way so that unlesse beside Scripture there were something that might assure c. And d L. 2. §. 7. L. 3. §. 8. this he acknowledgeth saith Brierly is the Authority of Gods Church Certainely Hooker gives a true and a sensible Demonstration but Brierly wants fidelity and integrity in citing him For in the first place Hooker's speech is Scripture it selfe cannot teach this nor can the Truth say that Scripture it selfe can It must needs ordinarily have Tradition to prepare the minde of a man to receive it And in the next place where he speaks so sensibly That Scripture cannot beare witnesse to it selfe nor one part of it to another that is grounded upon Nature which admits no created thing to bee witnesse to it selfe and is acknowledged by our Saviour e S. Ioh. 5. 31. He speakes of himselfe as man If I beare witnesse to my selfe my witnesse is not true that is is not of force to bee reasonably accepted for Truth But then it is more then manifest S. Ioh. 8. 13. that Hooker delivers his Demonstration of Scripture alone For if Scripture hath another proofe nay many other proofes to usher it and lead it in then no question it can both prove and approve it selfe His words are So that unlesse besides Scripture there be c. Besides Scripture therefore he excludes not Scripture though he call for another Proofe to lead it in and help in assurance namely Tradition which no man that hath his braines about him denies In the two other Places Brierly falsifies shamefully for folding up all that Hooker sayes in these words This other meanes to assure us besides Scripture is the Authority of Gods Church he wrinkles that Worthy Authour desperately and shrinkes up his meaning For in the former place abused by Brierly no man can set a better state of the Question betweene Scripture and Tradition then Hooker doth a L. 2. §. 7. His words are these The Scripture is the ground of our Beliefe The Authority of man that is the Name he gives to Tradition is the Key which opens the doore of entrance into the knowledge of the Scripture I aske now when a man is entred and hath viewed a house and upon viewing likes it and upon liking resolves unchangeably to dwell there doth he set up his Resolution upon the Key that let him in No sure but upon the goodnesse and Commodiousnesse which he sees in the House And this is all the difference that I know betweene us in this Point In which do you grant as you ought to do that we resolve our Faith into Scripture as the Ground and we will never deny that Tradition is the Key that lets us in In the latter place Hooker is as plaine as constant to himselfe and Truth b L. 3. §. 8. His words are The first outward Motive leading men so to esteeme of the Scripture is the Authority of Gods Church c. But afterwards the more wee bestow our Labour in reading or learning the Mysteries thereof the
his abodc on Earth And this Promise of his spirituall presence was to their Successors else why to the end of the world The Apostles did not could not live so long But then to the * Rabanus Manr goes no furrher then that to the End some will alwayes bee in the world fit for Christ by his Spirit and Grace to inhabit Divina mansione inhabitatione digni Rab. in S. Mat. 28. 19 20. Pergatis habentes Dominum Protectorem Ducem saith S. Cypr. L. 4. Epist. 1. But he doth not say How farre sorth And loquitur Fidelibus sicut uni Corpcri S. Chrysost. Homil in S. Matth. And if S Chrysost. inlarge it so farre I hope A. C. will not extend the Assistance given or promised here to the whole Body of the Faithfull to an Infallible and Divine Assistance in every of them as well as in the Pastors and Doctors Successors the Promise goes no further then I am with you alwayes which reaches to continuall assistance but not to Divine and Infallible Or if he think me mistaken let him shew mee any One Father of the Church that extends the sense of this Place to Divine and Infallible Assistance granted hereby to all the Apostles Successors Sure I am Saint †In illis donâ—… quibus salus aliorum quaeritur qualia sunt Prâ—…phetiae interpretationes Sermanum c. Spiritus Sanctus nequaquam semper in Pradicatorib us permanet S. Greg. L. 2. Moral c 29. prin Edit Basil. 1551. Gregory thought otherwise For hee saies plainly That in those Gifts of God which concern other mens salvation of which Preaching of the Gospell is One the Spirit of Christ the Holy Ghost doth not alwayes abide in the Preachers bee they never so lawfully sent Pastors or Doctors of the Church And if the Holy Ghost doth not alwayes abide in the Preachers then most certainly he doth not abide in them to a Divine Infallibility alwayes The Third Place is in S. Iohn 14. where Christ sayes S. Iohn 14. 16. The Comforter the Holy Ghost shall abide with you for ever Most true againe For the Holy Ghost did abide with the Apostles according to Christs Promise there made and shall abide with their Successors for ever to * Iste Consolator non auferetur à Vobis sicut subtrahitur Humaint as mea per mortem sed aternalitèr erit Vobiscum hic per Grasiam in futuro per Gloriam Lyra. in S. John 14. 16 You see there the Holy Ghost shal be present by Consolation and Grace not by Infallible Assistance comfort and preserve them But here 's no Promise of Divine Infallibility made unto them And for that Promise which is made and expresly of Infallibility Saint Iohn 16. though not S. Ioh. 16. 13. cited by A. C. That 's confined to the Apostles onely for the setling of thâ—…m in all Truth And yet not simply all For there are some Truths saith a Omnem veritatem Non arbitror in hac vita in cujusquam mente compleri c. S. Augustin in S. Ioh Tract 96. versus fin Saint Augustine which no mans Soule can comprehend in this life Not simply all But b Spiritus Sanctus c. qui eos doceret Omnem Veritatem quam tunc cum iis loquebatur portare non poterant S. Ioh. 16. 12 13. S. Augustin Tract 97. in S. Ioh. prin all those Truths quae non poterant portare which they were not able to beare when Hee Conversed with them Not simply all but all that was necessary for the Founding propagating establishing and Confirming the Christian Church But if any man take the boldnesse to inlarge this Promise in the fulnesse of it beyond the persons of the Apostles themselves that will fall out which Saint c Omnes vel insipientissimi Haeretici qui se Christianos vocars volunt audacias figmentorum suorum quas maximè exhorret sensus humanus hac Occasione Evangelicae sententiae colorare comentur c. S. Augustin T. 97. in S. Ioh. circamed Augustine hath in a manner prophecyed Every Heretick will shelter himselfe and his Vanities under this Colour of Infallible Veritie I told you a * Num. 26. A. C. p. 52. little before that A. C. his Penne was troubled and failed him Therefore I will helpe to make out his Inference for him that his Cause may have all the strength it can And as I conceive this is that hee would have The Tradition of the present Church is as able to worke in us Divine and Infallible Faith That the Scripture is the VVord of God As that the Bible or Bookes of Scripture now printed and in use is a true Copie of that which was first written by the Penne-men of the Holy Ghost and delivered to the Church 'T is most true the Tradition of the present Church is a like operative and powerfull in and over both these workes but neither Divine nor Infallible in either But as it is the first morall Inducement to perswade that Scripture is the Word of God so is it also the first but morall still that the Bible wee now have is a true Copie of that which was first written But then as in the former so in this latter for the true Copie The last Resolution of our Faith cannot possibly rest upon the naked Tradition of the present Church but must by and with it goe higher to other Helpes and Assurances Where I hope A. C. will confesse wee have greater helpes to discover the truth or falshood of a Copie then wee have meanes to looke into a Tradition Or especially to sift out this Truth that it was a Divine and Infalliâ—…le Revelation by which the Originals of Scripture were first written That being fatre more the Subject of this Inquiry then the Copie which according to Art and Science may be examined by former preceding Copies close up to the very Apostles times But A. C. hath not done yet For in the last place hee tells us That Tradition and Scripture A. C. p. 53. without any vicious Circle doe mutually confirme the Authority either of other And truly for my part I shall easily grant him this so hee will grant mee this other Namely That though they doe mutually yet they doe not equally confirme the Authority either of other For Scripture doth infallibly confirme the Authority of Church Traditions truly so called But Tradition doth but morally and probably confirme the Authority of the Scripture And this is manifest by A. C ' s. owne Similitude For saith he 't is as a Kings Embassadors word of mouth and His Kings Letters beare mutuall witnesse to each other Iust so indeed For His Kings Letters of Credence under hand and seale confirme the Embassadors Authority Infallibly to all that know Seale and hand But the Embassadors word of mouth confirmes His Kings Letters but onely probably For else Why are they called Letters of Credence if they give not him
known unto us by the Infallible Authority of the Church of God that is of men Infallibly assisted by the Spirit of God as all lawfully called continued and confirmed Generall Councels are assisted That the whole Church §. 21. Nu. 5. of God is infallibly assisted by the Spirit of God so that it cannot by any error fall away totally from Christ the Foundation I make no doubt For if it could the gates of hell had prevailed against it which our Saviour assures me S. Matth. 16. they shall never be able to doe Matth. 16. 18. But that all Generall Councels be they never so lawfully called continued and confirmed have Infallible Assistance I utterly deny 'T is true that a Generall Councell de post facto after 't is ended and admitted by the whole Church is then Infallible for it cannot erre in that which it hath already clearely and truly determined without Errour But that a Generall Councell à parte ante when it first sits down and continues to deliberate may truly be said to be Infallible in all its after-determinations whatsoever they shall be I utterly deny And it may be it was not without cunning that A. C. shuffled these words together Called Continued and Confirmed for be it never so lawfully called and continued it may erre But after 't is confirmed that is admitted by the whole Church then being found true it is also Infallible that is it deceives no man For so all Truth is and is to us when 't is once knowne to be Truth But then many times that Truth which being known is necessary and Infallible was before both contingent and fallible in the way of proving it and to us And so here a Generall Councell is a most probable but yet a fallible way of inducing Truth though the Truth once induced may be after 't is found necessary and Infallible And so likewise the very Councell it selfe for that particular in which it hath concluded Truth But A. C. must both speake and meane of a Councell set downe to deliberate or els he sayes nothing Now hence A. C. gathers That though everything defined to be a Divine Truth in Generall Councels is not absolutely A. C. p. 71. necessary to be expresly knowne and actually believed as some other Truths are by all sorts yet no man may after knowledge that they are thus defined doubt deliberately much lesse obstinately deny the Truth of any thing so defined Well in this Collection of A. C. First we have this granted That every thing defined in Generall Councels is not absolutely necessary to be expresly knowne and actually believed by all sorts of men And this no Protestant that I know denies Secondly it is affirmed that after knowledge that these Truths are thus defined no man may doubt deliberately much lesse obstinately deny any of them Truly Obstinately as the word is now in common use carries a fault along with it And it ought to be farre from the temper of a Christian to be obstinate against the Definitions of a Generall Councell But that he may not upon very probable grounds in an humble and peaceable manner deliberately doubt yea and upon Demonstrative grounds constantly deny even such Definitions yet submitting himselfe and his grounds to the Church in that or another Councell is that which was never till now imposed upon Believers For 't is one thing for a man deliberately to doubt and modestly to propose his Doubt for satisfaction which was ever lawfull and is many times necessary And quite an other thing for a man upon the pride of his owne Iudgement * S. 32. N. 5. to refuse externall Obedience to the Councell which to doe was never Lawfull nor can ever stand with any Government For there is all the reason in the world the Councell should be heard for it selfe as well as any such Recusant whatsoever and that before a Iudge as good as it selfe at least And to what end did †S. Aug. L. 2. de Bapt. cont Donat c. 3. Ipsaque plenaria sape priora à posterioribus emendari S. Augustine say That one Generall Councell might be amended by another the former by the Later if men might neither denie nor so much as deliberately doubt of any of these Truths defined in a Generall Councell And A. C. should have done well to have named but one ancient Father of the Primitive Church that ever affirmed this * S. 21. N. 5. For the Assistance which God gives to the whole Church in generall is but in things simply necessary to eternall Salvation therefore more then this cannot be given to a Generall Councell no nor so much But then if a Generall Councell shall forget it selfe and take upon it to define things not absolutely necessary to bee expresly knowne or actually believed which are the things which A. C. here speakes of In these as neither Generall Councell nor the whole Church have infallible Assistance so have Christians liberty modestly and peaceably and upon just grounds both deliberarely to doubt and constantly to deny such the Councels Definitions For instance the Councell of Florence first defined Purgatory to be believed as a Divine Truth and matter of Faith a I know the Greekes subscribed that Councell Sed in illo Concilio Graeca Ecclesiae diu restitit Pet. Mart. Loc. com classe tertiâ c. 9. nu 13. Et in ultimâ Sessione istius Concilii Graeci dixerunt se sine Authoritate totius Ecclesiae Orientalis Quaestionem aliam tractare non posse praeter illam de processione Sp. Sancti Postea verò consentiente Imperatore tractârunt de aliis c. Florent Concil Sess. ult apud Nicolinum To. 4. p. 894. c. This savours of some art to bring in the Greeks Howsoever this showes enough against Bellarmine That all the Greekes did not constantly teach Purgatory as he assirms L. 1. de Purgat c. 11. §. De tertio modo if that Councell had Consent enough so to define it This was afterwards deliberately doubted of by the Protestants after this as constantly denied then confirmed by the b Con. Trid. Sess. 25. in Bullâ Pii 4. super formà Iuramenti professionis Fidei Councell of Trent and an Anathema set upon the head of every man that denies it And yet scarce any Father within the first three hundred yeares ever thought of it I know a Omnes veteres Graeci Latini ab ipso tempore ApostoleruÌ„ constanter docuerunt Purgatorium esse Bel. L. 1. de Purg. c 11 §. De tertio modo Bâ—…llarmine affirmes it boldly That all the Fathers both Greeke and Latine did constantly teach Purgatory from the very Apostles times And where he brings his Proofs out of the Fathers for this Point he divides them into two Rancks b Bel. Lib 1 de Purg c 6 §. 1. In the first he reckons them which affirme Prayer for the dead as if that must necessarily inferre Purgatory Whereas
assurance and for which we have no warrant at all in Scripture while wee in the meane time neglect the ordinary way and meanes commanded by Christ. Secondly 't is very neare an Expression in Scripture it selfe For when S. Peter had ended that great Sermon of his Act. 2. he Act. 2. 38 39. applies two comforts unto them Vers. 38. Amend your lives and be baptized and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost And then Verse 39. hee inferres For the promise is made to you and to your children The Promise what Promise What Why the Promise of Sanctification by the Holy Ghost By what meanes Why by Baptisme For 't is expresly Be baptized and ye shall receive And as expresly This promise is made to you and to your children And therefore A. C. may finde it if he will That the Baptisme of Infants may be directly concluded out of Scripture For some of his owne Party a Nullum excipit non Iudaeum non Gentilem non Adultum non Puerum c. Ferus in Act. 2. 39. Ferus and b Et ad Filios vestros quare debent consentire quum ad usum rationis perveniunt ad implenda promissa in Baptismo c. Salm. Tract 14. upon the place Salmeron could both find it there And so if it will doe him any pleasure he hath my Answer which he saith he would be glad to know 'T is true a Bellar. L. 4. de Verbo Dei c. 9. §. 5. Bellarmine presses a maine Place out of S. Augustine and he urges it hard S. b S. Aug. Gen. ad Lit. c. 23. Consuetudo Matris Ecclesia in Baptizandis parvulis nequaquam spernenda est nec omninò credenda nisi Apostolica esset Traditio Augustine's words are The Custome of our Mother the Church in Baptizing Infants is by no meanes to be contemned or thought superfluous nor yet at all to be believed unlesse it were an Apostolicall Tradition The Place is truly cited but seemes a great deale stronger than indeed it is For first 't is not denyed That this is an Apostolicall Tradition and therefore to be believed But secondly not therefore onely Nor doth S. Augustine say so nor doth Bellarmine presse it that way The truth is it would have beene somewhat difficult to finde the Collection out of Scripture onely for the Baptisme of Infants since they do not actually believe And therefore S. Augustine is at nec credenda nisi that this Custome of the Church had not been to be believed had it not been an Apostolicall Tradition But the Tradition being Apostolicall led on the Church easily to see the necessary Deduction out of Scripture And this is not the least use of Tradition to lead the Church into the true meaning of those things which are found in Scripture though not obvious to every eye there And that this is S. Augustine's meaning is manifest by himself who best knew it For when he had said c Cur Antiquam fidei Regulam frangere conaris S. Aug. Ser. 8. de ver Apos c. 8. Hoc Ecclesia semper tenuit Ib. Ser. 10. c. 2. as he doth That to baptize children is Antiqua fidei Regula the Ancient Rule of Faith and the constant Tenet of the Church yet he doubts not to collect and deduce it out of Scripture also For when Pelagius urged That Infants needed not to be baptized because they had no Originall Sin S. Augustine relies not upon the Tenet of the Church only but argues from the Text thus a Quid necessarium habuit Infans Christum si non aegrotat S. Matth. 9. 12. Quid est quod dicis nisi ut non accedant ad Iesum Sed tibi clamat Iesus Sine Parvulos venire ad me S. Aug. in the fore-cited places What need have Infants of Christ if they be not sicke For the sound need not the Physitian S. Mat. 9. And againe is not this said by Pelagius ut non accedant ad Iesum That Infants may not come to their Saviour Sed clamat Iesus but Iesus cries out Suffer Little ones to come unto me * S. Marc. 10. 14. S. Mar. 10. And all this is fully acknowledged by b Nullus est Scriptor tam vetustus qui non ejus Originem ad Apostolorum seculum pro certo referat Calv. 4. Inst. c. 16 §. 8. Calvine Namely That all men acknowledge the Baptisme of Infants to descend from Apostolicall Tradition †Miserrimum alylum foret si pro Defensione Paedubaptismi ad nudam Ecclesiae authoritatem fugere cogeremur Calv. 4. Inst. c. 8. §. 16. And yet that it doth not depend upon the bare and naked Authority of the Church Which he speakes not in regard of Tradition but in relation to such proofe as is to be made by necessary Consequence out of Scripture over and above Tradition As for Tradition * §. 15. Num. 1. A. C. p. 49. I have said enough for that and as much as A. C. where 't is truly Apostolicall And yet if any thing will please him I will add this concerning this particular The Baptizing of Infants That the Church received this by c Orig in Rom 6 6. tom 2 p. 543. Pro hoc Ecclesia ab Apâ—…stolis Traditionem suscepit etiaÌ„ parvulis BaptismuÌ„ dare Et S. Aug. Ser. 10. de verb. Apos c. 2. Hoc Ecclesia à MajoruÌ„ side percepit And it is to be observed that neither of these Fathers nor i believe any other say that the Church received it à Traditione solâ or à Majorum side sola as if Tradition 〈◊〉 exclude collection of it out of Scripture Tradition from the Apostles By Tradition And what then May it not directly be concluded out of Scripture because it was delivered to the Church by way of Tradition I hope A. C. will never say so For certainly in Doctrinall things nothing so likely to be a Tradition Apostolicall as that which hath a * Yea and Bellarmine himself avers Omnes Traditiones c. contineri in Scripturis in universali L. 4. de verb. Det non scripto c. 10. §. Sic etiam And S. Basil. Serm. de fide approves only those Agrapha quae non sunt aliena à piâ secunduÌ„ ScripturaÌ„ Sententid root and a Foundation in Scripture For Apostles cannot write or deliver contrary but subordinate and subservient things F. I asked how he knew Scripture to be Scripture and in particular Genesis Exodus c. These are believed to be Scripture yet not proved out of any Place of Scripture The Bishop said That the Books of Scripture are Principles to be supposed and needed not to be proved B. I did never love too curious a search into § 16 that which might put a man into a wheele and circle him so long betweene proving Scripture by Tradition and Tradition by Scripture till the Divell finde a meanes to dispute him into Infidelity and make him believe neither I
traditum est S. Cypri ad Pompeium cont Epist. Stephan princ tradere non traditum make a Tradition of that which was not delivered to her and by some of Them then She is unfaithful to God and doth not servare depositum faithfully keepe that which is committed to her Trust. * 1 Tim. 6. 20. and 2 Tim. 1. 14. 1 Tim. 6. And her Sonnes which come to know it are not bound to obey her Tradition against the c Si ipsa Ecclesia contraria Scripturae diceret Fidelis ipsi non crederet c. Hen. a Gand. Sum. p. 1. A. 10. q. 1. And Bellarmiâ—…e himselfe that he might the more safely defend himselfe in the Cause of Traditions sayes but how truly let other men Iudge Nullam Traditionem admittimus contra Scripturam L. 4. 〈◊〉 Verbo Dei c. 3. §. Deindè commune Word of their Father For wheresoever Christ holds his peace or that his words aâ—…e not Registred I am of S. d S. Aug. Tom. 96. in 〈◊〉 Ioh. in illâ—… Ferba Multa habeo dicere sed non potestis portare modò Augustines Opinion No man may dare without rashnesse say they were these or these So there were many unwritten Words of God which were never delivered over to the Church and thereâ—…ore never made Tradition And there are many Traditions which cannot be said to be the unwritten word of God For I believe a Learned Romanist that will weigh before he speakes will not easily say That to Annoint or use Spittle in Baptisme or to use three Dippings in the use of that Sacrament or diverse other like Traditions had their Rise from any Word of God unwritten Or if he be so hardy as to say so 't is gratis dictum and he will have enough to doe to prove it So there may be an unwritten Word of God which is no Tradition And there are many Traditions which are no unwritten Word of God Therfore Tradition must be taken two wayes Either as it is the Churches Act delivering or the Thing thereby delivered and then 't is Humane Authority or from it and unable infallibly to warrant Divine Faith or to be the Object of it Or els as it is the unwritten Word of God and then where ever it can be made to appeare so 't is of divine and infallible Authority no question But then I would have A. C. consider where he is in A. C. p. 49. this Particular He tels us We must know infallibly that the Bookes of Holy Scripture are Divine and that this must be done by unwritten Tradition but so as that this Tradition is the Word of God unwritten Now let him but prove that this or any Tradition which the Church of Rome stands upon is the Word of God though unwritten and the businesse is ended But A. C. must not thinke that because the Tradition of the Church tels me these Bookes are Verbum Dei Gods A. C. p. 50. Word and that I do both honour and believe this Tradition That therefore this Tradition it selfe is Gods Word too and so absolutely sufficient and infallible to worke this Beliefe in me Therefore for ought A. C. hath yet added we must on with our Inquiry after this great Businesse and most necessary Truth 2. For the second way of proving That Scripture should be fully and sufficiently knowne as by Divine and Infallible Testimony Lumine proprio by the resplendency of that Light which it hath in it selfe onely and by the witnesse that it can so give to it selfe I could never yet see cause to allow a Hook l. 2. §. 4 For as there is no place in Scripture that tels us Such Books containing such and such Particulars are the Canon and infallible Will and Word of God So if there were any such place that were no sufficient proofe For a man may justly aske another Booke to beare witnesse of that and againe of that another and where ever it were written in Scripture that must be a part of the Whole And no created thing can alone give witnesse to it selfe and make it evident nor one part testifie for another and satisfie where Reason will but offer to contest Except those Principles onely of Naturall knowledge which appeare manifest by intuitive light of understanding without any Discourse And yet they also to the weaker sort require Induction preceding Now this Inbred light of Scripture is a thing coincident with Scripture it selfe and so the Principles and the Conclusion in this kind of proofe should be entirely the same which cannot be Besides if this inward Light were so cleare how could there have beene any variety among the Ancient Believers touching the Authority of S. a Euseb. L. 2. c. 27. fine Edit Basil. 1549. Iames and S. Jude's Epistles and the b Euseb. L. 3. c. 25. Apocalyps with other Bookes which were not received for diverse yeares after the rest of the New Testament For certainly the Light which is in the Scripture was the same then which now it is And how could the Gospell of S. Bartholomew of S. Thomas and other counterfeit peeces obtaine so much credit with some as to be received into the Canon if the evidence of this Light were either Universall or Infallible of and by it selfe And this though I cannot approve yet me thinks you may and upon probable grounds at least For I hope no †Except A. C. whose boldness herein I cannot but pitie For he denies this light to the Scripture and gives it to Tradition His words are p. 52. Tradition of the Church is of a company which by its owne light shewes it selfe to bee infallibly assisted c. Romanist will deny but that there is as much light in Scripture to manifest and make ostension of it selfe to be infallibly the written Word of God as there is in any Tradition of the Church that it is Divine and infallibly the unwritten Word of God And the Scriptures saying from the mouthes of the Prophets b Isa 44. passina Thus saith the Lord and from the mouthes of the a Act. 28. 25. Apostles that the Holy Ghost spake by them are at least as able and as fit to beare witnesse to their owne Verity as the Church is to beare witnesse to her owne Traditions by bare saying they come from the Apostles And your selves would never go to the Scripture to prove that there are Traditions b 2. Thess. 2. 15. Iude vers 3. as you do if you did not thinke the Scripture as easie to be discovered by inbred light in itselfe as Traditions by their light And if this be so then it is as probable at the least which some of ours affirme That Scripture may bee knowne to bee the Word of God by the Light and Lustre which it hath in it selfe as it is which you c In your Articles delivered to D. W. to be answered And A. C. p. 52. affirme That a
it but not Evident And therefore he is after forced to confesse That the soule somtimes assents not to the Miracles but in great timidity which cannot stand with cleere Evidence And after againe That the soule may renounce the Doctrine formerly confirmed by Miracles unlesse some inward and supernaturall Light be given c. And neither can this possibly stand with Evidence And therefore Bellarmine goes no farther then this Miracula esse sufficientia efficacia ad novam fidem persuadendam L. 4. de Notis Eccles. c. 14. §. 1. To induce and perswade but not to Convince And Thomas will not grant so much for he sayes expresly Miraculum non est sufficiens Causa inducens Fidem Quia videntium unum idem Miraculâ—… quidam credunt quidam non Tho. 2. 2. q. 6. A. 1. c. And Ambros. Catharin in Rom. 10. 15. is downe-right at Nulla fides est habenda signo Examinanda sunt c. Anastasius Nicanus Episcopus apud Baron ad An. 360. num 21 Non sunt necessaria signâ—… vera sidet c. Suarez defens Fidei Catho L. 1. c. 7. Nu. 3. Infallâ—…ble nor Inseparable Markes of Truth in Doctrine Not Infallible For they may be Marks of false Doctrine in the highest degree d Deut. 13. 1 2 3. 2. Thess. 2. 9. S. Marc. 13. 22. Deut. 13. Not proper and Inseparable For e Operatio Virtutum alteri datur 1. Cor. 12. 10. To one and another he saith not to al. Damonia fugare Mortuâ—…s suscitare c. dedit quibusdam Discipulis suis quibusdam non dedit That is to doe Miracles S. Aug. Serm. 22. de Verbis Apost 〈◊〉 5. all which wrote by Inspiration did not confirm their Doctrine by Miracles For we do not finde that David or Solomon with some other of the Prophets did any neither were any wrought by S. Iohn the Baptist †S. Ioh. 10. 41. S. Ioh. 10. So as Credible Signes they were and are still of as much forceto us as 't is possible for things on the credit of Relation to be For the Witnesses are many and such as spent their lives in making good the Truth which they saw But that the Workers of them were Divinely and Infallibilly inspired in that which they Preacht and writ was still to the †Here it may be observed how warily A. C. carries himselfe For when hee hath said That a cleare Râ—…lation was made to the Apostles which is most true And so the Apostles knew that which they taught simpliciter à priori most Demonstratively from the Prime Cause God himselfe Then hee addes p 51. I say cleare in attestante That is the Revelation of this Truth was cleare in the Apostles that witnessed it But to make it knowledge in the Auditors the same or like Revelation and as cleare must be made to them For they could have no other knowing Assurance Credible they might and had So A. C. is wary there but comes not home to the Businesse And so might have held his peace For the Question is not what cleare Evidence the Apostles had but what Evidence they had which heard them Hearers a matter of Faith and no more evident by the light of Humane Reason to men that lived in those Dayes then to us now For had that beene Demonstrated or beene cleare as Prime Principles are in its owne light both they and we had apprehended all the Mysteries of Divinity by Knowledge not by Faith But this is most apparent was not For had the Prophets or Apostles been ordered by God to make this Demonstratively or Intuitively by Discourse or vision appeare as cleare to their Auditors as to themselves it did that Whatsoever they taught was Divine and Infallible Truth all men which had the true use of Reason must have beene forced to yeeld to their Doctrine a Esay 53. 1. Esay could never have beene at Domine quis Lord who hath believed our Report Esay 53. Nor b Ier 20. 7. Ieremy at Domine factus sum Lord I am in derision daily Ier. 20. Nor could any of S. Pauls Auditors have mocked at him as some of them did * Acts 17. 32. And had Zedcchiah and the people seene it as clearely as Ieremy himselfe did that the word he spake was Gods word and Infallible Ierusalem for oughâ—… we know had not beene layd desolate by the Chaldean But because they could not see this by the way of knowledge and would not believe it by way of Faith they and that City perished together Jer. 38. 17. Act. 17. for Preaching the Resurrection if they had had as full a view as S. Paul himselfe had in the Assureance which God gave of it in and by the Resurrection of Christ. vers 31. But the way of Knowledge was not that which God thought fittest for mans Salvation For Man having sinned by Pride God thought fittest to humble him at the very root of the Tree of Knowledge and make him deny his understanding and submit to Faith or hazard his happinesse The Credible Object all the while that is the Mysteries of Religion and the Scripture which containes them is Divine and Infallible and so are the Pen-men of them by Revelation But we and all our Fore-Fathers the Hearers and Readers of them have neither * Nemo pius nisi qui Scripturae credit S. Aug. L. 26. cont Faustum c. 6. Now no Man believes the Scripture that doth not believe that it is the Word of God I say which doth not believe I doe not say which doth not know oportâ—…t quod Credatur Authoritati eorum quibus Revelatio facta est Tho p. 1. q. 1. A. 8. ad secundum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 C c. Quod vero Animam habemus unde manis stâ—…m Si enim Uisibilibus credere velâ—… de Deo de Angelis de mente de Anima dubitabis sic tibi omnia veritatis dogmata deperibunt Et certè si manifestis credere velis Invisibilibus magis quam Uisibilibus credere oportet Liâ—…et enim admirabile sit dictum verum tamâ—…n apud mentem habentes valde certum vel in confesso Ex homil 13 S Chryâ—…ost in S. Mat. To. 1. Edit Fronto Paris 1630. knowledge nor vision of the Prime Principles in or about them but * Faith only And the Revelation which was cleare to them is not so to us nor therefore the Prime Tradition it selfe delivered by them Sixthly That hence it may be gathered that Pun. 6. the Assent which we yeeld to this maine Principle of Divinity That the Scripture is the Word of God is grounded vpon no Compelling or Demonstrative Ratiocination but relyes upon the strength of Faith more then any other Principle whatsoever †And this is the Ground of that which I said before §. 15. Nu. 1. That the Scripture only and not any unwritten Tradition was the â—…oundation of our Faith Namely when the Authority of
erre if he keepe his chaire which yet he affirmes L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 4. §. 2. Protestants so you will but understand it s not erring in Absolute Fundamentall Doctrines And therefore 't is true also that there can bee no just Cause to make a Schisme from the whole Church But here 's the Iesuite's Cunning. The whole Church with him is the Romane and those parts of Christendome which subject themselves to the Romane Bishop All other parts of Christendome are in Heresie and Schisme and what A. C. pleases Nay soft For another Church may separate from Rome if Rome will separate from Christ. And so farre as it separates from Him and the Faith so farre may another Church sever from it And thâ—…s is all that the Learned Protestants doe or can say And I am sure all that ever the Church of England hath either said or done And that the whole Church cannot erre in Doctrines absolutely Fundamentall and Necessary to all mens Saâ—…vation besides the Authority of these Protestants most of them being of prime ranke seemes to me to be cleare by the Promise of Christ S. Matth. 16 â—…hat the gates of Hell shall not prevaile S. Matth. 16. 18. against it Whereas most certaine it is that the Gates of Hell prevaile very farre against it if the Whole Militant Church universally taken can Erre from or in the Foundation But then this Power of not Erring is not to be conceived as if it were in the Church primò per se Originally or by any power it hath of it selfe For the Church is constituted of Men and Humanum est errare all men can erre But this Power is in it partly by the vertue of this Promise of Christ and partly by the Matter which it teacheth which is the unerring Word of God so plainely and manifestly delivered to her as that it is not possible she should universally fall from it or teach against it in things absolutely necessary to Salvation Besides it would be well waighed whether to believe or teach otherwise will not impeach the Article of the Creed concerning the Holy Catholike Church which we professe we believe For the Holy Catholike Church there spoken of containes not onely the whole Militant Church on earth but the whole Triumphant also in Heaven For so †Ecclesia hic tota accipiâ—…da est non solum ex parâ—…e quà pâ—…rinatur â—…terris c. vâ—…tiam ex illa parte quae in coelâ—… c. S. Aug. Eâ—…hir c 56. S. Augustine hath long since taught me Now if the whole Catholike Church in this large extent be Holy then certainly the whole Militant Church is Holy as well as the Triumphant though in a far lower degree in as much as all * Nemo ex toto Sanctus Optat. L 7 contra Parmen Sanctification all Holinesse is imperfect in this life as well in Churches as in Men. Holy then the whole Militant Church is For that which the Apostle speakes of Abraham is true of the Church which is a Body Collective made up of the spirituall seed of Abraham Rom. 11. If the root be holy so are the branches Well then the whole Militant Church is Holy Rom. 11. 16. and so we believe Why but will it not follow then Thaâ—… the whole Militant Church cannot possibly erre in the Foundations of the Faith That she may erre in Superstructures and Deductions and other by and unnecessary Truths if her Curiosity or other weaknesse carry her beyond or cause her to fall short of her Rule no doubt need be made But if She can erre either from the Foundation or in it She can be no longer Holy and that Article of the Creed is gone For if She can erre quite from the Foundation then She is nor Holy nor Church but becomes an Infidell Now this cannot be For †Dum Christus or at in Excelso Návicula id est Eâ—…clesia â—…tur fluctibus in profundo c sed quia Christus orat non potest mergi S. Aug. Serm 14 de Verb. Domi. c 2. Et Bâ—…llar L. 3 ac Eccle Milit c. 13. Praesidiâ—… Christi fulâ—…itur Ecclâ—…siae perpetuitas ut inter turbulentas aâ—…itationes formiâ—…abiles mâ—…tus c. salva tamâ—…n maneat Câ—… L. 2. Instit c. 15. §. 3. Ipsa Symboli 〈◊〉 admonemur perpetuam residâ—…re in Ecclesia Christi remission m Peccatorum Calv. L. 4. Inst. c. 1. §. 17. Now remission of sins cannot be perpetuall in the Church if the Church it selfe be 〈◊〉 perpetuall But the Church it selfe cannot be perpetuall if it fall away all Divine Ancient and Moderne Romanists and Reformers agree in this That the whole Militant Church of Christ cannot fall away into generall Apostacy And if She Erre in the Foundation that is in some one or more Fundamentall Poynts of Faith then Shee may bee a Church of Christ still but not Holy but becomes Hereticall And most certain it is that no * Spiritus Sanctificationis non pâ—…ost inveniri in Haereticorum mentibus S. Hierom in Ierom. 10. Assemâ—…ly be it never so generall of such Hereticks is or can be Holy Other Errors that are of a meaner alay take not Holinesse from the Church but these that are dyed in graine cannot consist with Holinesse of which Faith in Christ is the very Foundation And therefore if we will keepe up our Creed the whole Militant Church must be still Holy For if it be not so still then there may be a time that Falsum may subesse Fidei Catholicae that falshood and that in a high degree in the very Article may be the Subject of the Catholike Faith which were no lesse then Blasphemy to affirme For we must still believe the Holy Catholike Church And if She be not still Holy then at that time when She is not so we believe a Falshood under the Article of the Catholike Faith Therefore a very dangerous thing it is to cry out in generall termes That the whole Catholike Militant Church can Erre and not limit nor distinguish in time that it can erre indeed for Ignorance it hath and Ignorance can Erre But Erre it cannot either by falling totally from the Foundation or by Hereticall Error in it For the Holinesse of the Church consists as much if not more in the Verity of the Faith as in the Integrity of Manners taught and Commanded in the Doctrine of Faith Now in this Discourse A. C. thinkes he hath met with me For he tells me that I may not only safely grant A. C. p. 56. that Protestants made the Division that is nâ—…w in the Church but further also and that with a safe Confidence as one did was it not you saith he That it was ill done of those who did first made the Separation Truly I doe not now remember whether I said it or no. But because A. C. shall have full satisfaction from me and without any Tergiversation if I did not
then A. C. tels us That Particular Churches must in A. C. p. 58. that Case as Irenaeus intimateth have recourse to the Church of Rome which hath more powerfull Principality and to †And after hee saith p. 58. that the Bishop of Rome is and ought to bee the Iudge of particular Churches in this Case her Bishop who is chiefe Pastour of the whole Church as being S. Peter's Successour to whom Christ promised the keyes S. Matth. 16. for whom he prayed that his Faith might not faile S. Luke 22. And whom he charged to seed and governe the whole Flocke S Iohn 21. And this A. C. tels us he shall never refuse to doe in such sort as that this neglect shall be a Iust Cause for any Particular Man or Church under Pretence of Reformation in Manners or Faith to make a Schisme or Separation from the Whole Generall Church Well first you see where A. C. would have us If any Particular Churches differ in Points of Divine Truth they must not Iudge or Condemne each other saith he No take heed of that in any case That 's the Office of the Universall Church And yet he will have it That Rome which is but a Particular Church must and ought Iudge all other Particulars Secondly he tels us this is so Because the Church of Rome hath more Powerfull Principality then other Particular Churches and that her Bishop is Pastour of the Whole Church To this I answer that it is most true indeed the Church of Rome hath had and hath yet more Powerfull Principality then any other Particular Church But she hath not this Power from Christ. The Romane Patriarch by Ecclesiasticall Constitutions might perhaps have a Primacy of Order But for Principality of Power the Patriarchs were as even as equall as the a Summa Potestas Ecclesiastica non est data solum Petro sedetiam aliis Apostolis Omnes enim poterant dicere illud S. Pauli Solicitu la omnium Ecclesiarum c. 2. Cor. 11. 28. Bellar. L. 1. de Rom. Pont. c. 9. §. Respondâ—… Pontificatum Where then is the difference betweene S. Peter and the rest In this saith Bellarmin Ibid. Quta hec Potestas data est Petro ut Ordinario Pastori cui perpetuo succederetur Aliis verò tanquà m Delegatis quibus non succederetur This is handsomely said to men easie of beliefe But that the Highest Power Ecclesiasticall confessed to be given to the other Apostle as well as to S. Peter was given to S. Peter onely as to an Ordinary Pastour whose Successours should have the same Power which the Successours of the rest should not have can never bee prooved out of Scripture Nay I will give them their own Latitude it can never be proved by any Tradition of the whole Catholike Church And till it be proved Bellarmines handsome Expression cannot be believed by me For S. Cyprian hath told me long since that Episcopatus Vnus est for as much as belongs to the Calling as well as Apostolatus L. de simp. Praelato Apostles were before them The Truth is this more Powerfull Principality the Romane Bishops b §. 25. Nu. 12. got under the Emperours after they became Christian and they used the matter so that they grew big enough to oppose nay to depose the Emperours by the same power which they had given them And after this other Particular Churches especially here in the West submitted themselves to them for succour and Protections sake And this was one maine Cause which swelled Rome into this more Powerfull Principality and not any Right given by Christ to make that c Lib. 1. de Rom. Pont. c. 9. §. Augustmu Epistola Prelate Pastour of the whole Church I know Bellarmine makes much adoe about it and will needs fetch it out of d S. Aug. Epist. 162. In Romaná Ecclesiâ—… emper Apostolicae Cathedrae viguit Principatas S. Augustine who sayes indeed That in the Church of Rome there did alwaies flourish the Principality of an Apostolicke Chaire Or if you will the Apostolicke Chaire in relation to the West and South parts of the Church all the other foure Apostolicke Chaires being in the East Now this no man denies that understands the state and story of the Church And e Quia Opinio invaluit fundâ—…tam esse hanc Ecclesiam à S. Petâ—… Jtaque in Occidente Sedes Apostolica Honoris 〈◊〉 Calv. L. 4. c. 6. §. 16. Calvin confesses it expresly Nor is the Word Principatus so great nor were the Bishops of those times so little as that Principes and Principatus are not commonly given them both by the a Princeps Ecclesiae S. H. lar 18. de Trin. Prin. And he speakes of a Biâ—…hop in generall Greg. Nazianz. Orat. 17. Ascribuntur Episcopo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Imperium Thronus Principatus ad regimâ—…n Aâ—…imarum Et 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hujusmodi Imperium And he also speaks of a Bishop Greg. Nazian Orat. 20. Nor were these any Titles of pride in Biâ—…hops then For S. Greg. Nazianz. who challenges these Titles to himselfe Orat. 17. was so devout so mild and so humble that rather then the Peace of the Church should be broken he freely resigned the Great Patriarchate of Constantinople and retired and this in the First Councell of Constantinople and the Second Generall Greeke and the Latine Fathers of this great and Learnedest Age of the Church made up of the fourth and fist hundred yeares alwaies understanding Principatus of their Spirituall Power and within the Limits of their severall Iurisdictions which perhaps now and then they did occasionally exceed And there is not one word in S. Augustine That this Principality of the Apostolike Chaire in the Church of Rome was then or ought to be now exercised over the whole Church of Christ as Bellarmine insinuates there and as A. C. would have it here And to prove that S Augustine did not intend by Principatus here to give the Romane Bishop any Power out of his owne Limits which God knowes were farre short of the whole Church I shall make it most manifest out of the very same Epistle For afterwards saith S. Augustine when the pertinacy of the Donatists could not be restrained by the African Bishops only b Pergant ad Fratres Collegas nostros transmarinarum Ecclesiarum Episcopos c. S. Aug. Ep 162. they gave them leave to be heard by forraigne Bishops And after that he hath these words c An fortè non debuit Romanae Ecclesiae Melciades Episcopus cum Collegis transmarinis Episcopis illud sibi usurpare judicium quod ab Afris septuaginta ubi Primas Tigisitanus praesedit fuerit terminaetum Quid quod nec ipse usurpâ—…vit Rogatus quippe Imperator Iudices misit Episcopos qui cum â—…o sederent de totâ illâ Causà quod justum videretur statuerent c. S. Aug. Ibid. And yet peradventure Melciades the Bishop of
Puente La Convenientia de las dâ—…s Monarquias Catolicas la de la Iglesia Romana y la del Imperiâ—… Espaniol y 〈◊〉 de la prâ—…dentia de los Reyes Catolicos de Espania a tâ—…dos los Reyes dâ—…l mundâ—… a Spanish Friar followes the same resemblance betweene the Monarchies of Rome and Spaine in a Tract of his intitled The Agreement of the two Catholike Monarchies and Printed in Spanish in Madrid Anno 1612. In the Frontispice or Title Page of this Booke there are set out two Scutchions The one bearing the Crosse-Keyes of Rome The other the Armes of Castile and Leon both joyned together with this Motto In vinculo pacis in the bond of peace On the one side of this there is a Portraiture resembling Rome with the Sunne shining over it and darting his beames on S. Peters Keyes with this Inscription * Luminare Majus ut prâ—…sit Vrbiâ—… Orbi Luminare Majus the greater Light that it may governe the City that is Rome and the whole world And on the other side there 's another Image designing Spaine with the Moone shining over that and spreading forth its Raies upon the Spanish Scutchion with this Impresse †Luminare Minus ut subdatur Vrbi dominetur Orbi Luminare minus the lesse Light that it may be subject to the City of Rome he meanes and so be Lord to governe the whole world besides And over all this in the top of the Title-Page there is Printed in Capitall Letters Fecit Deus duo Luminaria magna God made two great Lights There followes after in this Author a Discovery at large of this Blazoning of these Armes but this is the Substance of it and abundantly enough to shew what is aimed at by whom and for whom And this Booke was not stollen out without the will and consent of the State For it hath Printed before it all manner of Licence that a Booke can well have For it hath the approbation of Father Pedro de Buyza of the Company of the lesuites Of Iohn de Arcediano Provinciall of the Dominicans Of Diego Granero the Licencer appointed for the supreme Councell of the Inquisition And some of these revised this booke by a Por Orden de los Seniores del Conseso Supremo Order from the Lords of that Councell And last of all the b Por Mandade del Rey nucstro Senior Kings Priviledge is to it with high Commendation of the Worke. But the Spanyards had need looke to it for all this least the French deceive them For now lately Friar Campanella hath set out an Eclogue upon the Birth of the Dolphin and that Permissu Superiorum by Licence from his Superiors In which he sayes expresly c Quum Gallia alat 20000000 hominum Ex singulis centenis sumendo unum colligit 200000. strenuorum militum stipendiatorum commodè perpetuoque Propterea omnes terrae Principes metuunt nunc magis à Gallia quà m unquam ab aliis Paratur enim illi Regnum Vniversale F. Tho. Campanellae Ecloga in Principis Galliarum Delphini Nativitatem cum Annot. Discip. Parisiis 1639. cum permissu Superiorum That all the Princes are now more afraid of France then ever for that there is provided for it Regnum Vniversale The Vniversall Kingdome or Monarchy But t is time to Returne For A. C. in this passage hath beene very Carefull to tell us of a Parliament A. C. p. 60. and of Living Magistrates and Iudges besides the Law-Bookes Thirdly therefore the Church of England God be thanked thrives happily under a Gracious Prince and well understands that a Parliament cannot be called at all times And that there are visible Iudges besides the Law-Bookes and One Supreme long may he be and be happy to settle all Temporall differences which certainly he might much better performe if his Kingdomes were well rid of A. C. and his fellowes And she believes too That our Saviour Christ hath left in his Church besides his Law-booke the Scripture Visible Magistrates and Iudges that is Archbishops and Bishops under a gracious King to governe both for Truth and Peace according to the Scripture and her owne Canons and Constitutions as also those of the Catholike Church which crosse not the Scripture and the Iust Laws of the Realme * Non est necesse ut sub Christo sit Unus Rector totius Ecclesiâ—… sed sussicit quòd sint plures regentes diversas provincias sicut sunt plures Reges gubernantes plura regna Ocham Dial. L. 2. Tract x. p. 1. c. 30. ad 1. But she doth not believe there is any Necessity to have one Pope or Bishop over the Whole Christian world more then to have one Emperor over the whole World Which were it possible She cannot thinke fit Nor are any of these intermediate Iudges or that One which you would have Supreme Infallible But since a Kingdome and a Parliament please A. C. so well to patterne the Church by I 'le follow him in the A. C. p. 60. way he goes and be bold to put him in minde that in some Kingdomes there are divers Businesses of greatest Consequence which cannot be finally and bindingly ordered but in and by Parliament And particularly the Statute Lawes which must bind all the Subjects cannot be made and ratified but there Therefore according to A. Cs. owne Argument there will be some Businesses also found Is not the setling of the Divisions of Christendome one of them which can never be well setled but in a †Propter defectum Conciliorum Generalium totius Ecclesiâ—… qua sola audet intrepidè corrigere omnes ea mala qua Vniversalem tangunt Ecclesiam manentia diu incorrecta crescunt c. Gerson Declar at Defectuum Uirâ—… 〈◊〉 To. 1. p. 209. Generall Councell And particularly the making of Canons which must binde all Particular Christians and Churches cannot be concluded and established but there And againe as the Supreme Magistrate in the State Civill may not abrogate the Lawes made in Parliament though he may Dispense with the Sanction or penalty of the Law quoad hic nunc as the Lawyers speake So in the Ecclesiasticall Body no Bishop no not the Pope where his Supremacie is admitted hath power to * Sunt enim Indissolubilia Decreta quibus reverentia debita est Prosper cont Collatorem c. 1. And Turrecremata who saies every thing that may be said for the Popes Supremacy yet dares not say Papam posse revocare tollere omnia Statuta Generalium Conciliorum sed Aliqua tantum Io. de Turrecre Summa de Ecclesiâ L. 3. c. 55. Et postea Papa non potest revocare Decreta primorum quatuor Conciliorum quia non sunt nisi Declarativa Articulorum Fidei Ibid. c. 57. ad 2 um disanull or violate the true and Fundamentall Decrees of a Generall Councell though he may perhaps dispense in some Cases with some Decrees By all which it
their own and are with all submission to be observed by every Christian where Scripture or evident Demonstration come not against them Nor doth it make way for the Whirlewind of a private Spirit For Private Spirits are too giddy to rest upon Scripture and too heady and shallow to be acquainted with Demonstrative Arguments And it were happy for the Church if she might never be troubled with Private Spirits till they brought such Arguments I know this is hotly objected against c Praefat. p. 29. Hooker the d Dialogus â—…ctus Deus Rex Authour cals him a e Cordatus Protestans Wise Protestant yet turnes thus upon him If a Councell must yeeld to a Demonstrative Proofe Who shall Iudge whether the Argument that is brought be a Demonstration or not For every man that will kicke against the Church will say the Scripture he urges is evident and his Reason a Demonstration And what is this but to leave all to the wildenesse of a Private Spirit Can any ingenuous man read this Passage in Hooker and dreame of a Private Spirit For to the Question Who shall judge Hooker answers as if it had beene then made f Praef. p. 29. And therefore A. C. is much to blame after all this to talk of a pretext of seeming evident Scripture or Demonstration As he doth p 59. An Argument necessary and Demonstrative is such saith he as being proposed to any man and understood the minde cannot chuse but inwardly assent unto it So it is not enough to thinke or say it is Demonstrative The Light then of a Demonstrative Argument is the Evidence which it selfe hath in it selfe to all that understand it Well but because all understand it not If a Quarrell be made Who shall decide it No Question a § 32. Nu. 2. but a Generall Councell not a Private Spirit first in the intent of the Authour for Hooker in all that Discourse makes the Sentence of the Councell b Praesat p. 28. binding and therefore that is made Judge not a Private Spirit And then for the Judge of the Argument it is as plaine For if it be evident to any man then to so many Learned men as are in a Councell doubtlesse And if they cannot but assent it is hard to thinke them so impious that they will define against it And if that which is thought evident to any man be not evident to such a grave Assembly it is probable 't is no Demonstration and the producers of it ought to rest and not to trouble the Church Nor is this Hooker's alone nor is it newly thought on by us It is a Ground in Nature which Grace doth ever set right never undermine And c 2 de Bapt cont Don. cap. 4. S. Augustine hath it twice in one Chapter That S. Cyprian and that Councell at Carthage would have presently yeelded to any one that would d Uni verum dicenti demonstr anti demonstrate Truth Nay it is a Rule with e Cont. Fund cap. 4. him Consent of Nations Authority confirmed by Miracles and Antiquity S. Peters Chaire and Succession from it Motives to keepe him in the Catholike Church must not hold him against Demonstration of Truth f Quae quidem si tam manifesta monâ—…ratur ut in dubtum â—…enire non possit praeponenâ—…a est omâ—…ibus ills rebus quiius in Catholica 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aciquid apertissimâ—… in Euangelâ—… 〈◊〉 c. 4. which if it bee so clearely demonstrated that it cannot come into doubt it is to be preferred before all those things by which a man is held in the Catholike Church Therefore an evident Scripture or Demonstration of Truth must take place every where but where these cannot be had there must be Submission to Authority And doth not Bellarmine himselfe grant this For speaking of Councels he delivers this Proposition That Inferiours may not judge whether their Superiours and that in a Councell do proceed lawfully or not But then having bethought himselfe that Inferiours at all times and in all Causes are not to be cast off he adds this Exception a L. 2 de Concil c. 8. §. Alii dicunt Cencilium Nisi manifestissimè constet intolerabilem Errorem committi Unlesse it manifestly appeare that an intolerable Errour be committed So then if such an Errour be and be manifest Inferiours may do their duty and a Councell must yeeld unlesse you will accuse Bellarmine too of leaning to a Private Spirit for neither doth he expresse who shall judge whether the Errour be intolerable This will not downe with you but the Definition of a Generall Councell is and must be infallible Your Fellowes tell us and you can affirme no more That the Voice of the Church determining in Councell is not b Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. Q. 3. Ar. 1. Humane but Divine That is well Divine then sure Infallible yea but the Proposition stickes in the throat of them that would utter it It is not Divine simply but in a c Divina suo modo Ibid. And so A. C. too who hath opened his mouth very wide to proove the Succession of Pastors in the Church to be of Divine and infallible Authority yet in the close is forced to add At least in some sort p. 51. manner Divine Why but then sure not infallible because it may speak lowdest in that manner in which it is not Divine Nay more The Church forsooth is an infallible Foundation of Faith d In altiori genere viz. in geners causae efficientis atque adeò aliquâ exparte formalis Ibid. Q. 4. Ar. 3. in an higher kinde then the Scripture For the Scripture is but a Foundation in Testimony and Matter to be believed but the Church as the efficient cause of Faith and in some sort the very formall Is not this Blasphemie Doth not this knock against all evidence of Truth and his owne Grounds that sayes it Against all evidence of Truth For in all Ages all men that once admitted the Scripture to be the Word of God as all Christians doe doe with the same breath grant it most undoubted and infallible But all men have not so judged of the Churches Definitions though they have in greatest Obedience submitted to them And against his owne Grounds that sayes it For the Scripture is absolutely and every way Divine the Churches Definition is but suo modo in a sort or manner Divine But that which is but in a sort can never be a Foundation in an Higher Degree then that which is absolute and every way such Therefore neither can the Definition of the Church be so infallible as the Scripture much lesse in altiori genere in a higher kinde then the Scripture But because when all other things faile you flie to this That the Churches Definition in a Generall Councell is by Inspiration and so Divine and infallible My haste shall not carrie mee from a little Consideration of that too Sixtly then If the
Definition of a Generall Councell Consid. 6. be infallible then the infallibility of it is either in the Conclusion and in the Meanes that prove it or in the Conclusion not the Meanes or in the Meanes not the Conclusion But it is infallible in none of these Not in the first The Conclusion and the Meanes For there are diverse Deliberations in Generall Councels where the Conclusion is Catholike but the Meanes by which they prove it not infallible Not in the second The Conclusion and not the Meanes For the Conclusion must follow the nature of the Premisses or Principles out of which it is deduced therefore if those which the Councell uses be sometimes uncertaine as is proved before the Conclusion cannot be infallible Not in the third The Meanes and not the Conclusion For that cannot but be true and necessary if the Meanes be so And this I am sure you will never grant because if you should you must deny the Infallibility which you seeke to establish To this for I confesse the Argument is old but can never be worne out nor shifted off your great Master a Relect. Cont. 4. q. 2. ad Argâ—… 1â—… Stapleton who is miserably hamper'd in it and indeed so are you all answers That the Infallibility of a Councell is in the second Course that is b And herein I must needs Commend your Wildome For you have had many Popes so ignorant 〈◊〉 ignorant as that they have beene â—…o way able to sift and Examine the Meanes And therefore you doe most advisedly make them infallible in the Conclusion without the Meanes §. 39. Nu. 8. It is infallible in the Conclusion though it be uncertaine and fallible in the Meanes and Proofe of it How comes this to passe It is a thing altogether unknowne in Nature and Art too That fallible Principles can either father or mother beget or bring forth an infallible Conclusion Well that is granted in Nature and in all Argumentation that causes Knowledge But we shall have Reasons for it c Ibid. Not. 4. First because the Church is discursive and uses the weights and moments of Reason in the Meanes but is Propheticall and depends upon immediate Revelation from the Spirit of God in delivering the Conclusion It is but the making of this appeare and all Controversie is at an end Well I will not discourse here To what end there is any use of Meanes if the Conclusion be Propheticall which yet is justly urged for no good cause can be assigned of it If it be Propheticall in the Conclusion I speake still of the present Church for that which included the Apostles which had the Spirit of Prophecie and immediate Revelation was ever Propheticke in the Definition but then that was Infallible in the Meanes too Then since it delivers the Conclusion not according to Nature and Art that is out of Principles which can beare it there must be some supernaturall Authority which must deliver this Truth That say I must be the Scripture For if you flie to immediate Revelation now the Enthusiasme must be yours But the Scriptures which are brought in the very Exposition of all the Primitive Church neither say it nor enforce it Therefore Scripture warrants not your Prophesie in the Conclusion And I know no other thing that can warrant it If you think the Tradition of the Church can make the world beholding to you Produce any Father of the Church that sayes This is an Vniversall Tradition of the Church That her Definitions in a Generall Councell are Propheticall and by immediate Revelation Produce any one Father that sayes it of his own Authority That he thinks so Nay make it appeare that ever any Prophet in that which he delivered from God as Infallible Truth was ever discursive at all in the Meanes Nay make it but probable in the ordinary course of Prophecie and I hope you go no higher nor will I offer at God's absolute Power That that which is discursive in the Meanes can be Prophetick in the Conclusion and you shall be my great Apollo for ever In the meane time I have learned this from a Prophetae audiebant à Deo interiùs inspirante Tho. 2. 24. q. 5. A. 1. ad 3. yours That all Prophecie is by Vision Inspiration c. And that no Vision admits Discourse That all Prophecie is an Illumination not alwayes present but when the Word of the b The word of the Lord came unto me is common in the Prophets Lord came to them and that was not by Discourse And yet you c Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. q. 2. p. 473. say againe That this Prophetick Infallibility of the Church is not gotten without study and industry You should do well to tell us too why God would put his Church to study for the Spirit of Prophecie which never any Particular Prophet was put unto d Propheticam Revelationem nullo pacto haberi posse vel ope Naturae vel studio Contra Avicennam Algazalem Averrocm c. Fran. Picus 2. Praenot c. 4. And whosoever shall study for it shall do it in vaine since Prophecie is a e 1. Cor. 12. 10. Gift and can never bee an acquired Habit. And there is somewhat in it that Bellarmine in all his Dispute for the Authority of Generall Councels dares not come at this Rocke f L. 2. de Conc. c. 12. He preferres the Conclusion and the Canon before the Acts and the Deliberations of Councels and so do we but I do not remember that ever he speaks out That the Conclusion is delivered by Prophecie or Revelation Sure he sounded the shore and found danger here He did sound it For a little before he speaks plainly would his bad Cause let him be constant * Concilia noâ—… habent neque scribunt immediatas Revelationes c sed ex Verbo Dei per ratiocinationeÌ„ dcducunt Conclusiones Bellar. l. 2 de Concil A. 12. §. At Concilia non Councels do deduce their Conclusions What from Inspiration No But out of the Word of God and that per ratiocinationem by Argumentation Neither have they nor do they write any immediate Revelations The second Reason why a Stap. Jb. p. 374 Stapleton will have it Propheticke in the Conclusion is Because that which is determined by the Church is matter of Faith not of Knowledge And that therefore the Church proposing it to be believed though it use Meanes yet it stands not upon Art or Meanes or Argument but the Revelation of the Holy Ghost Els when we embrace the Conclusion proposed it should not be an Assent of Faith but an Habit of Knowledge This for the first part That the Church uses the Meanes but followes them not is all one in substance with the former Reason And for the later part That then our admitting the Decree of a Councell would be no Assent of Faith but an Habit of Knowledge what great inconvenience is there if it be granted For
Charity of the Church her selfe were mistaken in the Case of the Donatists as shall †§. 35. Nu. 3. after appeare Secondly even Mistaken Charity if such it were is farre better then none at all And if the Mistaken be ours the None is yours Yea but A. C. tells us That this denyall of Salvation A. C. p. 65. is grounded upon Charitie as were the like threats of Christ and the Holy Fathers For there is but one true Faith and one true Church and out of that there is no Salvation And he that will not heare the Church S. Matth. 18. let him bee as a Heathen and a Publicane Therefore he sayes 't is more Charity to fore-warne us of the danger by S. Matth. 18. 17. these threats then to let us run into it thorough a false security 'T is true that there is but one true Faith and but one true Church But that one both Faith and Church is the a And this is prooved by the Creed â—…n which we professe our Beliefe of the Catholike not of the Roman Church Catholike Christian not the Particular Romane And this Catholike Christian Church he that will not both heare and obey yea and the Particular Church in which hee lives too so farre as it in necessaries agrees with the Vniversall is in as bad condition as a Heathen and a Publicane and perhaps in some respects worse And were we in this Case we should thanke A. C. for giving us warning of our danger But 't is not so For he thunders out all these threats and denyall of salvation because we joyne not with the Romane Church in all things as if her Corruptions were part of the Catholike Faith of Christ. So the whole passage is a meere begging of the Question and then threatning upon it without all ground of Reason or Charity In the meane time let A. C. looke to himselfe that in his false security hee run not into the danger and losse of his owne salvation while hee would seeme to take such care of ours But though this Argument prevailes with the weake yet it is much stronger in the cunning then the true force of it For all Arguments are very mooving that lay their ground upon b This is a free Confession of the Adversaries Argument against themselves and therefore is of force A. C. p. 64. But every Confession of Adversaries or others is to be taken with its Qualities and Conditions If you leave out or change these you wrong the Confession and then 't is of no force And â—…so doth A. C. here And though Bell. rm makes the Confession of the Adversaâ—…y a note of the true Church L. 4. de Notâ—…s Ecâ—…l c. 16. yet in the very beginning whâ—… layes his Ground 〈◊〉 1. he layes it 〈◊〉 plaine fallacie à secunaùm quid ad simpliciter the Adversaries Confession especially if it be confessed and avouched to be true But if you would speak truly and say Many Protestants indeed confesse there is salvation possible to be attained in the Romane Church but that yet they say withall that the Errors of that Church are so many * For they are no meane Differences that are betweene us by Bellarmines owne Confession Agendum est non de rebus levibus sed de gravissimis Quastionibut quae ad ipsa Fidei fundament a pertinent c. Bellarm. in praefat Operibus praefixá §. 3. And therefore the Errours in them and the Corruptions of them cannot bee of small Consequence by your owne Confession Yeâ—… by your owne indeed For you A. C. say full as much if not more then Bellarmine Thus We Catholikes hold all points in which Protestants differ from us in Doctrine of Faith to be Fundamentall and necessary to bee Believed or at least not denyed A. C. Relation of the first Conference p. 28. and some so great by the Confession of your owne as weaken the Foundation that it is very hard to goe that way to Heaven especially to them that have had the Truth manifested the heart of this Argument were utterly broken Besides the force of this Argument lyes upon two things one directly Expressed the other but as upon the By. That which is expressed is We and our Adversaries consent that there is salvation to some in the Romane Church What would you have us as malicious at least as rash as your selves are to us and deny you so much as possibility of Salvation If we should we might make you in some things straine for a Proofe But we have not so learned Christ as either to return evill for evill in this headie course or to deny salvation to some ignorant silly soules whose humble peaceable obedience makes them safe among any part of men that professe the Foundation Christ And therefore seeke not â—…o help our Cause by denying this comfort to silly Christians as you most fiercely do where you can come to worke upon them And this was an old trick of the Donatists For in the Point of Baptisme Whether that Sacrament was true in the Catholike Church or in the Part of Donatus they exhorted all to be baptised among them VVhy Because both Parts granted that Baptisme was true among the Dâ—…atists which that peevish Sect most unjustly denyed the sound part as S. †Esse verò apud Dâ—…natistas Baptismum illi asserunt nos concedimus c. L. 1. de Bap. cont Donat. c. 3. Augustine delivers it I would aske now Had not the Orthodox true Baptisme among them because the Donatists denyed it injuriously Or should the Orthodox against Truth have denyed Baptisme among the Donatists either to cry quittance with them or that their Argument might not be the stronger because both parts granted But Marke this how farre you runne from all common Principles of Christian Peace as well as Christian Truth while you deny salvation most unjustly to us from which you are farther off your selves Besides if this were or could be made a concluding Argument I pray why doe not you believe with us in the Point of the Eucharist For all sides agree in the Faith of the Church of England That in the most Blessed Sacrament the Worthy receiver is by his * Corpus Christi manducatur in Coena c. tantùm caelesti spirituall ratione Medium autem quo Corpus Christi accipitur manducatur in Coenâ Fides est Eccl. Angl. Art 28. After a spirituall manner by Faith on our behalfe and by the working of the Holy Ghost on the behalfe of Christ. Fulk in 1 Cor. 11. p. 528. Christus se cum omnibus bonis suit in Coenâ offert nos eum recipimus fide c. Calv. 4. Inst. c. 17. §. 5. Et Hooker L. 5. §. 67. p. 176. And say not you the same with us Spiritualis manducatio quae per Animam fit ad Christi Carnem in Sacramento pertingit Cajet Tom. 2. Opusc. de Euchar. Tract 2. Cap. 5. Sed
which a greater hath not And last of all whereas A. C. addes that confessedly Punct 6. A. C. p. 66. there is no such Perill That 's a most lowd untruth and an Ingenuous man would never have said it For in the same * §. 35. N. 12. place where I grant a possibility of Salvation in the Romane Church I presently adde that it is no secure way in regard of Romane Corruptions And A. C. cannot plead for himself that he either knew not this or that he overlook'd it for himselfe disputes against it as strongly as he can What modesty or Truth call you this For he that confesses a possibility of Salvation doth not therby confesse no perill of Damnation in the same way Yea but if some Protestants should say there is perill of Damnation to live and dye in the Romane Faith their saying is nothing in comparison of the number or worth of those that say there is none So A. C. againe And beside A. C. p. 66. they which say it are contradicted by their owne more Learned Brethren Here A. C. speakes very confusedly But whether he speake of Protestants or Romanists or mixes both the matter is not great For as for the Number and Worth of men they are no necessary Concluders for Truth Not Number for who would be judged by the Many The time was when the †Ingemuit totus Orbis Arrianum se esse miratus est S. Hier. advers Luciferian post medium Tâ—… 2. Arrianorum Uenenum non jam portiun culam quandam sed penè Orbem totum contaminaverat adeo ut propè cunctis Latini Sermonis Episcopis partim vi partim fraude deceptis caligo quaedam mentibus offunderetur c. Vin. Lir. cont Haeres c. 6. Ecclesia non Parietibus consistit sed in Dogmatum veritate Ecclesia ibi est ubi fides vera est Caterùm ante annos quindecim aut viginti Parietes omnes hic Ecclesiarum Haeretici de Atrianis aliis Haereticis loquitur possidebant c. Ecclesia autem illic erat ubi sides vera erat S. Hier. in Psal. 133. Constantius Tantane Orbis terrae pars Liberi in te residet ut tu solus homini Impio de Athanasio loquitur subsidio venire pacem Orbis ac Mundi totius dirimere audeas Liberius Esto quod ego solus sim non tamen propterea Causa fidei fit inferior nam olim tres solum erant reperti qui Rggis mandato resisterent c. Theod. L. 2. Hist. Eccles. c. 16. Dialogo inter Constant. Imp. Liberium Papam So that Pope did not think Multitude any great note of the true Church Vbi sunt c. qui Ecclesiam multitudiné definiunt parvum gregem aspernantur c. Greg. Naz. Orat 25. prin Nay the Arrians were growne to that boldnesse that they Objected to the Catholicks of that time Paucitatem the thinnesse of their number Greg. Naz. Carm. de vita sua p. 24. Edit Paris 1611. Quum ejecti tamen essent de Civitatibus jactabant in desertis suis Synagogis illud Multi vocati pauci electi Socr. L. 1. Hist. Eccl. c. 10. Arrians were too many for the Orthodox Not Worth simply for that once * Error Origenis Tertulliani magna fuit in Ecclesià Dei Populi tentatio Vin Lir. cont Har. c. 23 24. misled is of all other the greatest misleader And yet God forbid that to Worth weaker men should not yeeld in difficult and Perplexed Questions yet so as that when Matters Fundamentall in the Faith come in Question they finally rest upon an higher and clearer certainty then can be found in either Number or VVeight of men Besides if you meane your own Partie you have not yet prooved your Partie more worthy for Life or Learning then the Protestants Proove that first and then it will be time to tell you how worthy many of your Popes have beene for either Life or Learning As for the rest you may blush to say it For all Protestants unanimously agree in this That there is great perill of Damnation for any man to live and dye in the Romane perswasion And you are not able to produce any one Protestant that ever said the contrary And therefore that is a most notorious slander where you say that they which affirme this perill of Damnation are contradicted by their owne more A. C. p. 66. Learned Brethren And thus having cleared the way against the Exceptions of A. C. to the two former Instances I will now proceed as I †§. 35. N. 4. promised to make this farther appeare that A. C. and his fellowes dare not stand to that ground which is here laid downe Namely That in Poynt of Faith and Salvation it is safest for a man to take that way which the Adversary Confesses to be true or whereon the differing Parties agree And that if they doe stand to it they must be forced to maintaine the Church of England in many things against the Church of Rome And first I Instance in the Article of our Saviour Christs Descent into Hell I hope the Church of Rome believes Punct 1. this Article and withall that Hell is the place of the Damned so doth the Church of England In this then these distenting Churches agree Therefore according to the former Rule yea and here in Truth too 't is safest for a man to believe this Article of the Creed as both agree That is that Christ descended in Soule into the Place of the Damned But this the Romanists will not endure at any hand For the †Sequuntur enim Thom p. 3. q. 52 Ar. 2. c. Verba ejus sunt Anima Christi per suam essentiam descendit soluÌ„ ad locum Inferni in quo justi detinebantur c. Schoole agree in it That the Soule of Christ in the time of his death went really no farther then in Limbum Patrum which is not the place of the Damned but a Region or Quarter in the upper part of Hell as they call it built up there by the Romanist without Licence of either Scripture or the Primitive Church And a man would wonder how those Builders with untempered mortar found light enough in that darke Place to build as they have done Ezec. 13. 10. Secondly I 'le instance in the Institution of the Sacrament in both kinds That Christ Instituted it so is confessed Punct 2. by both Churches that the Ancient Churches received it so is agreed by both Churches Therefore according to the former Rule and here in Truth too 't is safest for a man to receive this Sacrament in both kindes And yet here this Ground of A. C. must not stand for good no not at Rome but to receive in one kinde is enough for the Laity And the poore * Basiliense Concilium concessit Bohemis utriusque speciâ—…i usum modò faterentur id sibi concedi ab Ecclesiâ non autem
1. We offer and present unto thee O Lord our selves our soules and bodies to be a reasonable holy and living Sacrifice unto thee So the Church of England in the Prayer after the receiving of the Blessed Sacrament by every particular man for himself onely and that is the Sacrifice of every mans Body and Soule to serve him in both all the rest of his life for this blessing thus bestowed on him Now thus farre these dissenting Churches agree that in the Eucharist there is a Sacrifice of Duty and a Sacrifice of Praise and a Sacrifice of Commemoration of Christ. Therefore according to the former Rule and here in truth too 't is fafest for a man to believe the Commemorative the Praising and the Performing Sacrifice and to offer them duly to God and leave the Church of Rome in this Particular to her Superstitions that I may say no more And would the Church of Rome stand to A. C s. Rule and believe dissenting Parties where they agree were it but in this and that before of the Reall Presence it would work farre toward the Peace of Christendome But the Truth is They pretend the Peace of Christendome but care no more for it then as it may uphold at least if not increase their owne Greatnesse My fourth Instance shall be in the Sacrament of Baptisme and the things required as necessary to make it Punct 4. effectuall to the Receiver They in the common received Doctrine of the Church of Rome are three The Matter the Forme and the Intention of the Priest to doe that which the Church doth and intends he should doe Now all other Divines as well ancient as moderne and both the dissenting Churches also agree in the two former but many deny that the Intention of the Priest is necessary Will A. C. hold his Rule That 't is safest to believe in a controverted Point of Faith that which the dissenting Parties agree on or which the Adverse Part Confesses If he will not then why should he presse that as a Rule to direct others which he will not be guided by himselfe And if he will then he must goe professedly against the * Con. Trid. Sess. 7. Can. 11. Councell of Trent which hath determined it as defide as a Point of Faith that the Intention of the Priest is necessary to make the Baptisme true and valid Though in the †Histor. Con. Trid. L. 2. p. 277. Edit Lat. Leyâ—… dae 1622. History of that Councell 't is most apparent the Bishops and other Divines there could not tell what to answer to the Bishop of Minors a Neapolitane who declared his Iudgement openly against it in the face of that Councell My fift Instance is Wee say and can easily Punct 5. prove there are divers Errors and some grosse ones in the Roman Missall But I my selfe have heard some Iesuites confesse that in the Liturgie of the Church of England there 's noe positive errour And being pressed why then they refused to come to our Churches and serve God with us They answered they could not doe it Because though our Liturgie had in it nothing ill yet it wanted a great deale of that which was good and was in their Service Now here let A. C. consider againe Here is a plaine Concession of the adverse Part And Both agree there 's nothing in our Service but that which is holy and good What will the Iesuite or A. C. say to this If hee forsake his ground then it is not safest in point of Divine Worship to joyne in Faith as the dissenting Parties agree or to stand to the Adversaries owne Confession If hee be so hardy as to maintaine it then the English Liturgie is better and safer to worship Cod by then the Romane Masse Which yet I presume A. C. will not confesse In all these Instances the Matter so falling out of it selfe for the Argument enforces it not the thing is true but not therefore true because the dissenting Parties agree in it or because the adverse Part Confesses it Yet least the Iesuite or A. C. for him farther to deceive the weake should inferre that this Rule in so many Instances is true and false in none but that one concerning Baptisme among the Donatists and therefore the Argument is true ut plerumque as for the most and that therfore 't is the safest way to believe that which dissenting Parties agree on I will lay downe some other Particulars of as great Consequence as any can be in or about Christian Religion And if in them A. C. or any Iesuite dare say that 't is safest to believe as the dissenting Parties agree or as the adverse Partie confesses I dare say he shall bee an Heretick in the highest degree if not an Infidell And First where the Question was betwixt the Ortbodox and the Arrian whether the Son of God were Punct 1. consubstantiall with the Father The Orthodox said he was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the same substance The Arrian came within a Letter of the Truth and said he was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of like substance Now hee that sayes hee is of the same substance confesses hee is of like substance and more that is Identity of Substance for Identity containes in it all Degrees of likenesse and more But hee that acknowledges and believes that Hee is of like nature and no more denies the Identity Therefore if this Rule be true That it is safest to believe that in which the dissenting Parties agree or which the Adverse Part Confesses which A. C. makes such great vaunt of then 't is safest A. C. p. 64. 65. for a Christian to believe that Christ is of like nature with God the Father and bee free from Beliefe that Hee is Consubstantiall with him which yet is Concluded by the a Con. Nicen. Fides vel Symbolum in fine Concil Councell of Nice as necessary to Salvation and the Contrary Condemned for Damnable Heresie Secondly in the Question about the Resurrection Punct 2. betweene the Orthodoxe and diverse Grosse b Saturninus Basilides Carpocrates Cerinthus Valentinus Cerdon Apelles c. Tertull. de praescript advers Haret c. 46. 48. 49. 51. c. Heretickes of old and the Anabaptists and Libertines of late For all or most of these dissenting Parties agree that there ought to bee a Resurrection from sinne to a state of Grace and that this Resurrection onely is meant in diverse Passages of holy Scripture together with the Life of the Soule which they are content to say is Immortall But c Libertini rident speâ—… omnem quam de Resurrectione habemus idque jam nobis evenisse dicunt quod adhuc expectamus c. ut Homo sciat Animam suam Spiritum immortalem esse perpeâ—… viventem in Coelis c. Calv. instructione advers Libertinos c. 22. princ Sunt etiam hodie Libertini qui eam irrident Resurrectionem quae tractatur in Scripturis tantùm ad
What then Why then A. C. addes That D. White confessed that this Visible Church had in all ages A. C. p. 67. taught that unchanged Faith of Christ in all Points Fundamentall D. White had reason to say that the Visible Church taught so but that this or that Particular Visible Church did so teach sure D. White affirmed not unlesse in case the whole Visible Church of Christ were reduced to one Particular only But suppose this What then Why then A. C. telles us that D. White being urged to assigne such a Church expresly A. C. p. 67. granted he could assigne none different from the Romane which held in all ages all Points Fundamentall Now here I would faine know what A. C. meanes by a Church different from the Romane For if he mean different in Place 'T is easie to affirme the Greeke Church which as hath * §. 9. before beene prooved hath ever held and taught the Foundation in the midst of all her Pressures And if he meane differentiâ—… Doctrinall Things and those about the Faith he cannot assigne the Church of Rome for olding them in all ages But if he meane different in the Foundation it selfe the Creed then his urging to assigne a Church is void be it Rome or any other For if any other Church shall thus differ from Rome or Rome from it selfe as to deny this Foundation it doth not it cannot remaine a Differing Church sed transit in Non Ecclesiam but passes away into No-Church upon the Denyall of the Creed Now what A. C. meanes he expresses not nor can I tell but I may peradventure guesse noare it by that which out of these Premises he would inferre For hence he tels us he gathered that D. Whito's Opinion A. C. p. 67. was That the Romane Church held and taught in all ages unchanged Faith in all Fundamentall Points and did not in any age erre in any Point Fundamentall This is very well For A. C s. confesses he did but gather that this was Doctor White 's Opinion And what if he gathered that which grew not there nor thence For suppose all the Premises true yet no Cartrope can draw this Conclusion out of them And then all A. C ' s. labour's lost For grant some one Church or other must still be Visible And grant that this Visible Church held all Fundamentals of the Faith in all ages And grant againe that D. White could not assigne any Church differing from the Romane that did this Yet this will not follow that therefore the Romane did it And that because there 's more in the Conclusion then in the Premises For A. C s. A. C. p. 67. Conclusion is That in D. White 's Opinion the Romane Church held and taught in all ages unchanged Faith in all Fundamentall Points And so farre perhaps the Conclusion may stand taking Fundamentall Points in their literall sense as they are expressed in Creedes and approved Councels But then he addes And did not in any age erre in any Point Fundamentall Now this can never follow out of the Premises before laid downe For say some one Church or other may still be Visible And that Visible Church hold all Fundamentall Points in all Ages And no man be able to name another Church different from the Church of Rome that hath done this yet it followes not therefore That the Church of Rome did not erre in any age in any Point Fundamentall For a Church may hold the Fundamentall Point Literally and as long as it stayes there be without controlle and yet erre grosly dangerously nay damnably in the Exposition of it And this is the Church of Romes case For most true it is it hath in all ages maintained the Faith unchanged in the Expression of the Articles themselves but it hath in the exposition both of Creeds and Councels quite changed and lost the sense and the meaning of some of them So the Faith is in many things changed both for life and beliefe and yet seems the same Now that which deceives the world is That because the Barke is the same men thinke this old decayed Tree is as sound as it was at first and not weather-beaten in any age But when they can make me believe that Painting is true Beauty I 'le believe too that Rome is not only sound but beautifull But A. C. goes on and tels us That hereupon the Iesuite asked whether Errors in Points not Fundamental were damnable And that D. White answered they were not unlesse they A. C. p. 67. were held against conscience T is true that Error in Points not Fundamentall is the more damnable the more it is held against conscience But it is true too that Error in Points not Fundamentall may be damnable to some men though they hold it not against their conscience As namely when they hold an Errour in some Dangerous Points which grate upon the Foundation and yet will neither seeke the meanes to know the Truth nor accept and believe Truth when 't is known especially being men able to Iudge which I feare is the case of too many at this day in the Romane Church Out of all which A. C. tels us The Iesuite collected that D. White 's Opinion was That the Romane Church held all A. C. p. 68. Points Fundamentall and only erred in Points not Fundamentall which he accounted not damnable so long as he did not hold them against his Conscience And that thereupon hee said D. White had secured him since he held no Faith different from the Romane nor contrary to his Conscience Here againe wee have but A C s and the Iesuites Collection But if the Iesuite or A. C. will collect amisse who can helpe it I have spoken before in this very Paragraph to all the Passages of A. C. as supposing them true and set downe what is to be answered to them in case they proove so But now 't is most apparent by D. White 's Answer set downe before †§. 37. N. 1. at large that he never said that the Church of Rome erred onely in Points not Fundamentall as A. C. would have it But that hee said the contrary Namely that some errours of that Church were Fundamentall reductivê by a Reducement if they which embraced them did pertinaciously adhere to them having sufficient meanes of information And againe expresly That hee did not say that none were damnable so long as they were not held against Conscience Now where is A. C ' s. Collection For if a Iesuite or any other may collect Propositions which are not granted him nay contrary to those which are granted him hee may inferre what hee please And he is much too blame that will not inferre a strong Conclusion for himselfe that may frame his owne Premises say his Adversary what hee will And just so doth A. C. bring in his Conclusion to secure himselfe of Ialvation because he holds no Faith but the Romane nor that
force me to dissent And in that Case I shall do it without Contempt too This onely I will say b Nemini in sua causa eredendum nisi conformitter ad Legem Divinam Naturalem Canouicam loquatur So Io. Gerson the Doctors of Paris cited in Lib. Anon. de Ecclesiastica Politica Potestate c. 16. Ed. Paris 1612. Now these Popes doe not speak here conformably to these Lawes That Sixe Popes concurring in opinion shall have lesse waight with me in their own Cause than any other Sixe of the more Ancient Fathers Indeed could I swallow b L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 3. Bellarmines Opinion That the Popes Iudgement is Infallible I would then submit without any more adoe But that will never downe with me unlesse I live till I doate which I hope in God I shall not Other Proofes than these Bellarmine brings not to prove that the Particular Church of Rome cannot erre in or from the Faith And of what force these are to sway any Iudgement I submit to all indifferent Readers And having thus examined Bellarmines Proofes That the Particular Church of Rome cannot erre in Faith I now returne to A. C. and the A. C. p. 42. Iesuite and tell them that no Iesuite or any other is ever able to prove any Particular Church Infallible But for the Particular Church of Rome and the Pope with it erred it hath And therefore may erre Erred I say it hath in the Worship of Images and in altering Christs Institution in the blessed Sacrament by taking away the Cup from the People and diverse other particulars as shall appeare at †§. 33. Consid. 7. Num. 5. 12 after And as for the Ground which is presumed to secure this Church from Errour 't is very remarkable How the c Romanae Ecclesia Particularis non potest errare persistente Romae Apostolicá sede Propositio haec est verissima fortasse tam vera quam illa prima de Pontifice L. 4 de Rom. Pont. c. 4. §. 2. And that first proposition is this Summus Pontifex cum totam Ecclesiam docet in his quae ad fidem pertinent nullo casu errare potest Ibid. c. 3. §. 1. Learned Cardinall speakes in this Case For he tells us that this Proposition So long as S. Peter's Chaire is at Rome that Particular Church cannot erre in the Faith is verissima most true and yet in the very next words 't is Fortasse tam vera peradventure as true as the former that is That the Pope when he teaches the whole Church in those things which belong to the faith cannot erre in any case What is that Proposition most true And yet is it but at a peradventure 't is as true as this Is it possible any thing should be absolutely most true and yet under a Peradventure that it is but as true as another truth But here without all Peradventure neither Proposition is true And then indeed Bellarmine may say without a Fortasse That this proposition The Particular Church of Rome cannot erre so long as the Sea Apostolike is there is as true as this The Pope cannot erre while he teaches the whole Church in those things which belong to the Faith For neither of them is true But he cannot say that either of them is verissima most true when neither of them hath Truth 2. Secondly if the Particular Church of Rome be Infallible and can neither erre in the Faith nor fall from it then it is because the Sea Apostolike cannot be transferred from Rome but must ever to the consummation of the World remaine there and keepe that Particular Church from erring Now to this what sayes Bellarmine what why he tells us a Pia probabilissima Sententia est Cathedram Petri non posse separari à Româ proinde Romanam Ecclesiam absolutè non posse errare vel deficere L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 4. §. Quod nihilominus That it is a pious and most probable Opinion to thinke so And he reckons foure Probabilities that it shall never be remov'd from Rome And I will not deny but some of them are faire Probabilities But yet they are but Probabilities and so unable to convince any man Why but then what if a man cannot thinke as Bellarmine doth but that enforced by the light of his understanding he must thinke the quite contrary to this which Bellarmine thinks pious and so probable What then Why then b Contraria sententia nee est Haeretica nee manifestè erronea L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 4. §. At socundum Bellarmine himselfe tells you that the quite contrary Proposition to this namely That S. Peter's Chayre may be severed from Rome and that theâ—… that Particular Church may erre is neither Haereticall nor manifestly erroneous So then by Bellarmines owne Confession I am no Haereticke nor in any manifest error if I say as indeed I doe and thinke it too that 't is possible for S. Peter's Chaire to be carried from Rome and that then at least by his owne argument that Church may erre Now then upon the whole matter and to returne to A. C. If that Lady desired to rely upon a A. C. p. 42. particular infallible Church 't is not to be found on earth Rome hath not that gift nor her Bishop neither And Bellarmine who I thinke was as able as any Champion that Church hath dares not say t is either Haeresie or a manifest error to say That the Apostolike Sea may be removed thence and That Church not only erre in Faith but also fall quite away from it Now I for my part have not ignorance enough in me to believe That that Church which may Apostatize at some one time may not erre at another Especially since both her erring and failing may arise from other Causes besides that which is mention'd by the Cardinall And if it may erre 't is not Infallible F. The Question was Which was that Church A friend of the Ladies would needs defend That not only the Romane but also the Greek Church was right B. When that Honourable Personage answered § 4 I was not by to heare But I presume He was so farre from granting that only the Romane Church was right as that He did not grant it right And that He tooke on him no other Defence of the poore Greeke Church then was according to truth F. I told him That the Greeke Church had plainly changed and taught false in a Poynt of Doctrine concerning the Holy Ghost and That I had hear'd say that even His Majestie should say That the Greeke Church having erred against the Holy Ghost had lost the Holy Ghost B. You are very bold with His Majesty to § 5 relate Him upon Heare-say My Intelligence serves me not to tell you what His Majestie said But if he said it not you have beene too credulous to believe and too suddaine to report it Princes deserve and were
wont to have more respect than so If His Majestie did say it there is Truth in the speech The error is yours only by mistaking what is meant by Loosing the Holy Ghost For a Particular Church may be said to loose the Holy Ghost two wayes or in two Degrees 1. The one when it looses such speciall assistance of that Blessed Spirit as preserves it from all dangerous Errors and sinnes and the temporall punishment which is due unto them And in this sense the Greeke Church did perhaps loose the Holy Ghost for they erred against Him they sinned against God And for this or other sinnes they were delivered into another Babylonish Captivity under the Turke in which they yet are and from which God in his mercy deliver them But this is rather to be called an Error circa Spiritum Sanctum about the Doctrine concerning the Holy Ghost then an error against the Holy Ghost 2. The other is when it looses not only this assistance but all assistance ad hoc to this that they may remaine any longer a true Church and so Corinth and Ephesus and divers other Churches have lost the Holy Ghost But in this sense the whole Greeke Church lost not the Holy Ghost For they continue a true Church in the maine substance to and at this day though erroneous in this Poynt which you mention and perhaps in some other too F. The Ladies friend not knowing what to answer called in the Bishop who sitting downe first excused himselfe as one unprovided and not much studied in Controversies and desiring that in Case he should faile yet the Protestant Cause might not be thought ill of B. This is most true For I did indeed excuse § 6 my selfe and I had great reason so to doe And my Reason being grounded upon Modestie for the most part there I leave it Yet this it may be fit others should know that I had no information where the other Conferences brake off no instruction at all what should be the ground of this third Conference nor the full time of foure and twenty hourâ—…s to bethinke my selfe And this I take upon my Credit is most true whereas you make the sifting of these and the like Questions to the very Branne your daily work and came throughly furnished to the businesse and might so leade on the Controversie to what your selfe pleased and I was to follow as I could * De util Credendi c. 2. S. Augustine said once Scio me invalidum esse I know I am weake and yet he made good his Cause And so perhaps may I against you And in that I prefer'd the Cause before my particular credit that which I did was with modesty and according to Reason For there is no Reason the waight of this whole Cause should rest upon any one particular man And great Reason that the personall Defects of any man should presse himselfe but not the Cause Neither did I enter upon this Service out of any forwardnesse of my owne but commanded to it by Supreame Authority F. It having an hundred better Schollers to maintaine it than he To which I said there were a thousand better Schollers than I to maintaine the Catholike Cause B. In this I had never so poore a Conceit of the Protestants Cause as to thinke that they had § 7 but an hundred better than my selfe to maintaine it That which hath an hundred may have as many more as it pleases God to give and more than you And I shall ever bee glad that the Church of England which at this time if my memory reflect not amisse I named may have farre more able Defendants than my selfe I shall never envie them but rejoyce for Her And I make no Question but that if I had named a thousand you would have multiplied yours into ten Thousand for the Catholike Cause as you call it And this Confidence of yours hath ever beene fuller of noyse than Proofe But you proceed F. Then the Question about the Greeke Church being proposed I said as before That it had erred B. Then I thinke the Question about the § 8 Greeke Church was proposed But after you had with confidence enough not spared to say That what I would not acknowledge in this Cause you would wring and extort from me then indeed you said as before that it had erred And this no man denied But every Errour denies not Christ the Foundation or makes Christ denie it or thrust it from the Foundation F. The Bishop said That the Errour was not in Point Fundamentall B. I was not so peremptory My speech § 9 was That diverse Learned men and some of your owne were of opinion That as the Greeks expressed themselves it was a Question not simply Fundamentall I know and acknowledge that Errour of denying the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne to be a grievous errour in Divinity And sure it would have grated the Foundation if they had so denied the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne as that they had made an inequality betweene the Persons But since their forme of speech is a Non ex Filio sed Spiritum Filii esse diâ—…imus Damascon L. 1. Fid. Orth. c. 11. Et Patris per filium Ibid. That the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father by the Sonne and is the Spirit of the Sonne without making any difference in the Consubstantiality of the Persons I dare not denie them to bee a true Church for this though I confesse them an Erroneous Church in this Particular Now that diverse learned men were of Opinion That à Filio per Filium in the sense of the Greeke Church was but a Question in modo loquendi in manner of b Pluralitas in Uoce salvat â unitate in re non repugnat uniâ—…ati Fidei Durand Lib. 3. d. 25. q. 2. speech and therefore not Fundamentall is evident c Magist. 1. Sent. d. 11. D. Sane sciendum est quòd licet in praesenti Articulo a nobis Graeci verbo discordent tamen sensu non differunt c. Bandinus L. 1. de Trin. d. 11 Bonavent in 1 Sent. d. 11. A. 1. q. 1. §. 12. Licet Graecis infensissimus quùm dixit Graeces objicere curiâ—…sitatem Romanis addendo I ilioque Quia sine hujus Articuli professione salus er at non Respondet negando salutem esse sed dicit tantùm opportunam fuisse Determinationem propter periculum Et postea §. 15. Sunt qui volunt sustinere opinionem Graecorum Latinorum distinguendo duplicem modum Procedendi Sed fortè si duo sapientes unus Graecus alter Latinus uterque verus amator Veritatis non propriae dictionis c. de hac visa contrarietate disquirerent pateret utique tandem ipsâ—…m Contrarietatem non esse veraciter realem sicut est Vocalis Scotus in 1. Sent. d. 11. q. 1. Antiquorum Graecorum à Latinis diserepantia in voce potiùs est modo