Potens est Dominus misericordiâ suá indulgentiam dare non tamen qâ—ia semel erratum est ideo semper errandum est God is able of his great mercy to giue indulgence but yet there is no reason that wee should alwayâ—s â—rrâ— because they once did erre R. In truth that is a very modest answere C. But heare you what further he saith Si quis ex Antecessoribus nostris vel ignoranter vel simpliciter non hoc obseruanit tenuit quod nos Dominus exemplo suo docuit potest simplicitatieius de indulgentiâ Domini venia concedi nobis vero non poterit ignosci quia à Domino admoniti instructi sumus If any of our forefathers either of ignorance or simplicity hath not holden and obserued that which the Lord hath taught vs to doe by his example there may bee mercie granted to his simplicity out of Gods indulgence but we cannot be forgiuen who now are otherwise instructed admonished by the Lord. R. That answer I see is more sharp and yet most reasonable many things are excusable in the night that are not tolerable in the day The seruant that knows his Mâ—sters will and doâ—h it not is worthy of double stripes C. And I am glad you see it and I would many more had their eyes open to see it who thinke Papistry now tolerable in the dayes of light as it was in the dayes of darkenesse it was a fault then for euen the seruaÌ„t who knowes not his Masters will shall be stricken but it is a double fault now for hee who knowes his Masters will and does the contrary shall haue double sâ—ripes R. Then I see you will not giue out iudgement vpon the persoÌ„s of Papists whether they bee saued or damned C. Indeed I will not and that for two causes first because as I haue said many are Papists by name which are no Papists some of ignorance some of vaine glory some of policy to get themselues the more credite And as to these who are infected indeed with the heresies of Papistrie yet is it vncertain if they shall so continue for the Lord is maâ—uellous in working with such as belong to his election that howsoeuer for the prâ—sent wee see them in sinne and ignorance yeâ— know wee not what they will be â— so many secret wayes â—â—th the Lord in time of sicknâ—sse yea in the very howre of dâ—ath to draw the hâ—arts of mâ—n towardâ— himselfe which are hid from vs that it wâ—re but presumption to iudge of an other mans saluation or reprobation R. Indeed I commeÌ„d you for I thinke you speak with that sobriety which becomâ— a christiaÌ„ C. And yet whatsoeuer I haue said concerning the persons of Papists there is further to bee saide of Papistrie it selfe that it is a doctrine so full of heresies so directly contrary to the doctrine of the Gospell that I dare say a man beleeuing all the points of Papistrie and perseuering in them â—o the end without repentance cannot bee saued R. Now that is the point I pray you make it cleare C. It is cleare by these places following which will shew you that Papistrie is a doctrine of Diuels a plague of God and a iust punishment laied on reprobate men for their sinnes and a forerunner of the wrath to come R. Good sooth I quake to heare this C. You shall see them al particularly qualified and first there is a Prophesie made by the Apostle of the defection which was to come in these words Now the spirite speakes euidently that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith giuing heed to the spirites of error doctrine of Diuels which speake lies in hipocrisie hauing their conscience burned with an hote yron forbidding to marrie and commanding to abstaine from meates c. Perceiue you not here that the doctrine which forbids mariage and commands abstinence from meates is called a doctrine of diuels R. Very well but that is meant of heretikes which were soone after the Apostles daies as Ebioâ—its Marcionits c. C. Nay that is a sillie shift for he saieth these teachers shal come in the latter times and the departure from the faith wherof hee prophesieth was not to come till the fall of the Roman Empire but in the daies of Ebion Marcion c. the Roman Empire was in great glorie R. But if that bee meant of any Apostasie in the later times it is of your sect will they say that hath fallen froÌ„ the church of Rome C. It cannot be meant of vs for wee neitheâ— forbid mariage nor command abstinence from meates for conscience sake R. That is verie true but may not the Church for some causes command abstinencie froÌ„ meats C. Yes for Prayer and deuotion and that for a time onely but not because any meate is vncleane or one meat is holier then an other as they thinke their Chartrouse Monkes more holy that neuer eate flesh then others are and why forsooth because flesh and not fish was accursed in the daies of Noah R. Indeed that seemes to be somewhat superstitious C. Well I will enter into no more particulars concerning this question It is cleare these are two points of Papisticall doctrine called by the Apostle doctrine of Diuels So I proceede There shall arise false Christs and false Prophets and shall shew great signes and wonders so that if it were possible they should deceiue the very elect Mat. 24.24 The comming of Antichrist by the working of Satan with all power and signes and lying wonders 2. Thess. 2.9 And in aâ—â— deceiuablenesse of vnrighteousnes among them that perish because they receiued not the truth â—hat they might bee saued ibid ver 10. And therefore God shall send them strong delusions that they should belieue lies verse 11. That all they might be damned which belieued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse ver 12. All that dwell vpon the earth shall worship the beast whose names are not written in the Bookâ— of life of the Lamb which was slain from the beginning Reuel 13.8 And he deceiued them which dwelt on earth by the signes which were permitted him to doe ver 14. If any man worshippe the beast c. the same shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God and shall bee tormented in fire and brimstone Reu. 14.9.10 Goe out of Babel my people that yee bee not partakers of her sinnes and receiue not of her plagues These places make cleare vnto you that it is onelie the reprobate worldly-minded called therefore dwellers on the earth whose names are not written in the book of life children of perdition it is only they I say who are fullie and finally deceiued with the spirit of Antichrist and that in Gods righteous iudgement are giuen ouer to belieue lies because they receiued not the loue of the truth What thinke yee of these R. In truth I am astonished to heare these fearefull places C. This is yet further cleared
list but haue no cause R. VVas not your Father and Grandfather and their Fathers before them for many ages Papists C. What of that they who in regard of time and truth were long before them and should be followed as Fathers to vs and them both were Protestants R. That is but a shift of your owne C. It is no shift it is a truth and you shall see it your selfe if you will consider who were Pauls Fathers whom he saies he followed in the worshipping of God R. What were the names of his Fathers were I cannot tell but I see they haue been Israelites of the Tribe of Beniamin C. We haue not that to stand vpon what they were for their persons or names either but what was their Religion remember you not that hee sayes himselfe he was brought vp at the feet of Gamaliâ—l R. Yea I doe C. Tell mee now of what Religion was Gamaliâ—l R. I see he hath been a Pharesie C. And think you that Saint Paul when hee made his Apologie worshipped God after the manner of Pharesies R. I thinke it not C. How then sayes hee that he worshipped God after the maner of his Fathers seeing his Fathers were Pharesies R. I thinke he meanes not of these fathers who liued last before him but transcending them he passes vp to his elder fathers Abraham Isaack Iacob C. Was hee not then wrongfully accused of noueltie as one who had forsaken the religion of his fathers because hee forsooke the Religion of such Fathers as liued last before him R. I thinke so indeede His Apologie cleares him sufficiently both of heresie and noueltie which his aduersaries would haue imputed to him C. Now Sir I haue you where I would why should not the like Apologie cleare vs in the like case for albeit we haue foresaken the heresies of Papistrie maintained by them that liued last before vs yet doe wee worship the Lord our God as these fathers did whom Iustin Martyr callâ—s Patres Patrum whom with him we will prefer to any posterior fathers whatsoeuer R. That cannot be seeing it is known it is not threescore yeers since your Religion came into this Country C. No Sir I will make known to you that it is 1500 yeeres since this same Religion preached and professed now was then preached and professed by our Ancient fathers The first Religion that euer we had was gentilisme our fathers worshipped Diana the Sun the Moone the Starres R. That was a pittifull blindnesse C. So it was indeed but in the first hundreth yeere we embraced Christianity and eight hundreth yeere after Christ we were infected with Papistrie and now againe hath God called vs by the light of the gospel to our ancient Religion of Christianity whereby wee worshippe the Father in his sonne according to his word and no other way R. You speake faire enough to it be as it will but if it be true that you say then would you be in communion with the Catholike Church C. And so thanks to God we are reioycing as I said vnto you that the Lord by his Gospell hath called vs to bee Christian Catholikes R. That is alsoâ— a new stile of your owne that you will bee called Christian Catholikes C. If you were acquainted with antiquity you would not call it new with many such nouelties you charge vs which are indeed ancient truthes it is eleuen hundreth yeeres since in the seuenth Councell of Carthage professors of the Gospell were called Catholike Christians R. But to let the style passe how can you say you are in coÌ„munion with the Catholike Church seeing you haue made separationâ— from the Romane Church and refuse to bee stiled Roman Catholikes C. The Romane Church in her best estate was neuer more but a member of the Catholike Church and there is no more reason to cal the Roman church the Catholike Church nor to say that Rome is all Italy or Paâ—â—s is all France but now seeing the Roâ—an Church hath plaied the Whore made a shameful Apostasie from her first estate wee haue done no wrong in seperating from her but for our warrant haue Gods owne Proclamation commanding vs to doe so R. Where haue you that Proclamation C. There it is Come out of Babell my people R. But no word is there of Rome C. I shall proue to you that this Babel is Rome and your own Doctors cannot deny it R. If you make all good you haue said I will say no more but there is many one beguiled C. If you will heare mee by Gods grace I shall make it good R. I will not refuse to heare you and I trust also to answere you C. It is not me you shall hear but the voice of the Gospell which if it were heard at Rome I am of that mind the Popes kingdome should not long continue R. It will bee hard for you to get hearing there C. And why since Sodomits there haue their brothels and Iewes haue their Synagogues wherein they curse Christ why may not Protestants bee tolerated to haue a Church wherein to preach R. Good sooth they loue you worse then any of them I thinke it true for onâ— Deuill can dwell well inough with an other yea a legion of them in one man but none of them will giue place to Christ. But tell me how long God willing mind you to stay in this towne R. I hope to be in it all this weeke C. Then I pray you let vs spare euery day one howre or two for conference and I will come to you to your owne chamber R. Agreed am I and let our conference to morow continue about antiquitie for I think it somewhat strange that you should pretend it C. Well let it be so THE FIRST DAYES CONFERENCE Concerning Antiquitie in General R. WElcome Sir I see you are a true man and keepe promise C. What I am not in good faine would I be R. Thinke you not best we begin where wee left yesternight C. Yea indeede R. What say you then of Antiquitie will you not graunt that to bee the true Church which hath the most auncient Doctrine C. That is a thing out of all question the Doctrine which is most ancient I embrace and beleeue to be most true R. You will myre your selfe incontinent for these which yee call corruptions in the Church of Rome some of them will be found a thousand yeares old C. What is that to the matter Seeing the truth whereby we condemne these corruptions will be found elder then they and wee to speake with Vincentius wil euer preferre the olde Faith to new vnfaithfulnesse for if you thinke this a good Argument Such a doctrine or ceremonie should be receiued because it is one thousand and two hundred yeares old then by the same reason the heresies of Simon Magus must bee receiued for a truth because they were taught by him one thousand and sixe hundred yeares since R. But said you not euen now you would acknowledge that to
by Augustine who expounding that place of the Apostle 2. Thes. 2. Adoccultuâ—â— Dei iudicium pertinet quòd impij ab Antichristo feducuntur It pertaines to Gods secret iudgement that the wicked are seduced by Antichrist Seducentur qui seduci merebuntur pro eo quòd dilectionem veritatis non receperunt They shall bee deceiued who haue deserued to bee deceiued because they receiue not the loue of the truth and yet more feareful is the sentence which he subioynes Iudicati seducentur seducti iudicabuntur when they are iudged they shall be deceiued and because they were deceiued they shal be iudged ouer againe they are first iudged by the iudgement of God secretly iust and iustly secret whereby now hee punisheth the sinnes of men deliuering them to the Spirit of errour that receiued not the loue of his truth and because they were deceiued they shall be iudged againe in that last and manifest iudgment to bee made by Christ Iesus who was vniustly iudge himselfe but most iustly shall iudge the World This Commentarie makes it cleare that Papistrie is not onely a sinne but a present punishment of God inflicted on man for sinne specially for contempt of the Gospell and a procurement of that fearefull wrath that is to come which if it were considered men would not esteeme Papistrie so indifferent a thing as they doe R. God be mercifull to them who yet are blinded with these errours and Lord make mee thankefull who hath begunne to deliuer mee from that darkenesse the Lord illuminate mee more and more with his light that I may know his way and may receiue grace to follow it C. Amen But now I remember I promised before to declare vnto you that Papistrie impugnes both the Person and offices of Christ and so in effect denies that Iesus the Sonne of Marie is the Christ. R. That is most strange C. It is indeede and yet it is true as you shalâ— perceiue if you goe through the principall Articles of our faith And first to begin at Christ person that of many wee may touch a few We beleeue that Iesus Christ is both God and man R. And who denies that C. You know that old Arriuâ— denied his Diuinitie and now Papistes denie his humanitie R. How can you say that C. Because they worshippe and adore a Christ who is not come in the flesh To cleare this I pray you consider that Canon of the Apostles 1. Ioh. 4. Beloved beleeue not euery spirit but trie the spirits if they be of God because many false Prophets are gone out into the World In this the spirit of God is knowne Euerie spirit that confesseth Iesus Christ to haue come in the flesh is of God There is a golden rule for vs and them both and marke there the opposition Euerie spirit that saith otherwise is the spirit of Antichrist R. Let it be so What is that against Papists C. Yea it is against them directly for the word teacheth vs to worship Christ Conceiued of the holy Ghost horne of the Virgine Marie But they worshippe Christ created by a Priest not conceiued by the holy Ghost a Christ whose fleshe is made of Breade by Transubstantiation whereby they destroy the Article of his Incarnation R. But they say it is the same Christ who was borne of the Virgin Marie C. If it bee the same Christ then must they grant that his flesh is not created of bread for that Christ borne of the Virgin Marie was made flesh of the seed of Dauid by the operation of the Holy Ghost but this Christ whom they worship in the Masse hath his flesh made of bread by Transubstantiation and they are not ashamed to call their Priest for this worke Creatorem sui Creatoris a Creatour of his Creatour R. But saith not our Lord that the Bread giuen in the Sacrament is his Bodie C. Yea indeede and so wee beleeue it is for it is no naked nor common bread that hoe giues vs there the giuing of that bread It is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Communion of his blessed bodie R. But if it bee Bread how can it be his body C. It is needlesse to demaund how Since he hath said it but I beleeue it is his body R. But may not Christ of his omnipotent power transubstantiate bread into his body C. And I pray you may not Christ of his omnipotent power and truth giue mee his body except hee turne bread into his bodie R. I dare not say so C. And you haue reason The Papists charge vs that wee denie Gods omnipotencie but the fault is theirs they denie his omnipotencie when they say hee can not giue vs his body in the Sacrament except hee make his body of bread Doe they not here limit the Lord R. Well I see it is great wisedome to ponder euery thing we beleeue in the ballance of Gods word I wold not haue thought there had beene sucâ—â—lasphemie against the person of Christ in that Doctrin of Transubstantiation as now I see that Canon of the Apostle declares plainly C. You may ioyne to this another testimonie of the Apostle Hebrewes 13. Iesus Christ yesterday this day and the same for euer R. What will that make against them C. That they are blinde to worship a Christ this daie who was not a Christ yesterday for you know they grant themselues that before consecration the bread is not Christ. R. It is true indeed C. Then you may perceiue it is but an artificiall Christ made by man whom they worshippe and not â—he true Christ. Thus you see how they are iniurious to his person for the which cause I said to you that Papists by necessitie of consequence denie Iesus the sonne of Marie to bee the Christ. Now to his Offices they are all comprised vnder the name Christ for he is the anoynted King Prophet and Priest of his Church R. And they will grant all that vnto you C. I know in word they will but in effect they take his Offices from him R. How can that be C. You shall see how what thinke you is the office of a Prophet R. To teach C. You say verie well and for this cause Christ is called the great Prophet raised vp among his brethren And the great Angell of the counsell of God who came into the World to reueile perfectly vnto the Church the will of God concerning mans saluation and Gods worship so that now once for all God hath spoken to vs in these last dayes by his sonne and we haue not to expect from any other any further declaration of his will R. I thinke no man wil denie that C. You shall heare how it is denied if first I make the point more clear vnto you you know that the father proclaimed from Heauen first at Iordan then at mount Tabor This is my welbeloued sonne in whom I am well pleased heare him See you not here how we are plainly commaunded to learne Gods will concerning our Saluation
from the Sonne R. Yea I see that and it is good reason C. Then if you will come and heare what the Son saies you shal see that as the Father sends vs to the Sonne so the Sonne sends vs to the Scriptures if we would haue eternall life search the Scriptures and he witnesseth plainely Iohn 17.8 The wordes which thou gauest mee I gaue them meaning to his Disciples Where againe if you looke to the Disciples words The Scripture sayes Saint Paul is able to make the man of God perfect and therefore hee protests Act. 20 that he taught nothing but Moses and the Prophets and yet that hee had deliuered to them the whole counsell of God See you what a comfortable harmonie is here The Father bids vs heare the Sonne the Sonne protests the wordes the Father gaue him hee gaue to his Disciples and both of them sends vs to the Scripture as conteining the whole counsell of God concerning our Saluation R. I see all that clearly C. Then what spirit are they led with that dare say It had beene good for the Church the Scripture had neuer beene R. Who dare say that C. I haue heard with mine eares defenders of Papistrie say it and the positions of their owne Doctors no lesse blasphemous are extant to bee seene Lectio Scripturae non â—antùm est invtilis sed pernitio samultis modis the reading of Holy Scripture is not only vnprofitable but pernicious And therefore they wil not let the people read nor serch the Scripture though Christ commanded so to doâ— and instoade of Scripture they intrude on the Church their owne decrees and other traditions which they make of equal authoritie with the Scripture Thus you see how they take away Christs Propheticall office Now to come to his Priestly office you know the Priests office was twofold first hee ought to sacrifice for the people next to pray for them R. And they acknowledge both these that Christ hath offered himselfe in a propitiatory sacrifice for our sinnes and that hee still makes intercession for vâ— in heauen C. I but they so acknowledge it that in both these offices they ioyne others with Christ and so make him not a full and perfect Sauiour of his people by himselfe but a halfe-Sauiour in part R. I vnterstand not that C. I shall make it cleare to you There is the testimony of thâ— Word concerning the sufficiency of the merite of Christs bloud The bloud of Christ his sonne clenseth vs from all sinne R. They will not be against that C. But they are when they make this distinction that principally Christs bloud clenseth from sinne but secondarily there must be other things with it to clensâ— sinne as works of satisfaction in this life and fire of Purgatorie in the life to come By these also according to their ownâ— doctrine sinne is clensed R. For my own part I would alwaies reserue to Christ his owne glorie which I know hee will not giue to any other C. You haue reason for you and you shall thinke it so much the more if you consider with me these two testimonies R. What are those C. The first is Heb. 1.3 That Christ by himselfe hath made purgation of our sinnes R. What will you gather of that place C. A most necessary obseruation for clearing this controuersie to wit that the purging power of sinne is personâ—ll to Christ he hath done it by himselfe the vertue and benefâ—â— of iâ— hee communicates to others that repent and belieue bouâ—â—e meriting power by which God is reconciled and his iustâ—câ— satisfied he transfers not nâ—ither to any mans person nor any other thing beside R. Surely according to my vnderstanding that is a truth wherin euery Christian should rest for it is most comfortable to the conscience since wee are not â—blâ— neithâ—r in whole nor in part to satisfie for our owne sinnes C. It is so indeed and that you may bee the more confirmed will you looke how the Iesuites who 〈◊〉 the light because it conuinceth them of darkenesse inâ—translating this place leaue out tâ—is word By him selfâ— they say he makes purgation of sinnes but passe by this word by himself looke you their owne translation R. I seâ— indâ—ed they haue it not â—n their traâ—slation but is it I pray you in the Greeke text C. Yea forsooth if you can read it these are the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 R. In truth this one place makes all their doctrine concerning the supplement of Christs merits iustly to be suspected for since he hath made the purgation of our sinnes by himselfe what should we looke that they are to bee purged by any other C. You reason well R. I speake as I think it is either pittiful ignoraÌ„ce that they see not the truth or their wilful malice that they dare mutilate so cleare a place of holy Scripture leauing it out of their Bible because it â—akes against tâ—eÌ„ C. But now take in with this the other testimony of holy Scripture whereof I spake you haue it Heb. 7. ver 25. Christ is able to saue perfectly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all that come vnto God by him R. I see that is also a comfortable place C. So it is indeed for as the first makes you see that Christs meriting power is personall in himselfe not transfâ—rred to any other so this makes you see it is perfect hee hath done the worke of our saluation in his owne person and hee hath done it perfectly What more can you craue R. Truly I craue no more C. Away then with these rotten dregges of Papistrie that teach vs to depend vpon other merites vpon an other bloud as I shewed you the first day besides the merits of the bloud of Christ. R. For my own part I think neuer to leane to them but will rest vpon that onely perfect sacrifice of Christ offered on the Crosse for my sinnes C. If you abide there you are vpon the sure foundation and remember you must renounce all other sacrifices which derogate from the perfection sufficiency of that one sacrifice of Christ. R. I will indeed C. Then for your confirmation marke these places Christ in the end of the world hath appeared once to put away sinne by the sacrifâ—â—e of himselfe Heb. 9.26 Christ was once offered to take away the sins of many Heb. 9.28 Wee are sanctified by the offering of the body of Iesus Christ once Heb. 10.10 This man after he had offered one sacrifice for sinnes sits foreuer at the right hand of God Heb. 10.12 With one offering hath he â—onsecrated for euer them that are sanctified Heb. 10.14 where remission of sinnes is there is no more offering for sin Heb. 10.18 Christ needed not daily as these high Priests to offer vp sacrifice first for his owne sinnes and then for the peoples for that did hee once when he offered vp himselfe Heb. 7.27 without shedding of blood is no remission Heb. 9.22 Perceiue you not