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A02913 Obiections: answered by way of dialogue wherein is proved by the Law of God: by the law of our land: and by his Maties many testimonies that no man ought to be persecuted for his religion, so he testifie his allegeance by the Oath, appointed by law. Helwys, Thomas, 1550?-1616?, attributed name. aut; Murton, John, attributed name. aut 1615 (1615) STC 13054; ESTC S117349 47,923 88

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why are not subjects also freed from subjection and allegeance to their Princes being excomunicate if excomunication be Christs Lawe to all alike that wil be saved without respect off persons And also is not that lawe off Christ herein to be observed That whatsoever ye would men should do to you even so do you to them Mat. 7.12 And therefore as Princes would that all their subjects should bee faithfull and obedient vnto thē so ought Princes to be just and equall to all their subjects in mainteyning them in every just and equall cause betwene man and man For for his cause not for Religion saith Thappostle the saints at Rome paied their tribute to Cesar their heathē Prince who was against them in Religion Shall they not escape damnatiō for this accursed doctrine and practice ād thinke you you shall thou that judgest another judgest them not thy self By this it may appeare as also by exceeding many other doctrines ād practices how neere you are to that bloody spirituall power what pretences to the contrary soever you make A. It vvere a lamentable thinge if that bloodie Religion should bee practiced againe in this Nation C. I acknowledg it a bloodie Religion but God hath cast down the power thereof in this kingdome blessed be his name but I would you could see your owne cruell bloodie religion but that God of his mercy hath restrained it by the kings Ma tie who thirsteth not after blood how many onely for seeking reformation in religion hath bene put to death by your power in the daies of Q. Eliz ād how many both then ād since have bene cōsumed to death in prisons y●a since that cruel spiritual power hath bene ser ●p that not hanging burning exile imprisonments and al manner of contempt bene vsed and al for religion although some for grevious errors ād yet you see not this to be a bloodie religion further you cry out of their bloodie cruelty the reason is because you wil not bee of their religion and when you have done are most blodie cruell so far as is in your power because wee and al men will not bee of your religion A. If men hold errors vvill not obey the truth do they not sin against God deserve punishment C. Yes such deserve punishment but God hath apointed their punishment and the time thereof Their punishment Rom. 2.8.9 To them that are contentious disobey the truth obey vnrighteousnes shal be indignation wrath tribulatiō anguish shal be vpon the soule of every one that doth evil Mark 16.16 He that will not beleeve shal be damned 2. Thes 1.8 In flaming fire rendring vēgeance vnto them that knowe no God obey not the gospell of our Lord Iesus Christ which shall bee punished with everlasting perdition from the presence of the Lord the glorie of his power The time thereof the last place recited vers 7. When the Lord Iesus shal shewe himself from heaven with his mightie Angels and Rom. 2.5 The day of wrath and vers 16 At that day when God shall judg the secrets of men by Iesus Christ and Mat. ●3 40.41 At the end of this VVorld the sonne of man shall send furth his Angels they shall gather out of his Kingdome al thinges that offend them that doe iniquitie shall cast them into a furnace of Fire c. Here is shewed the punisher the punishment and the time thereoff This punisher hath comaunded you to wait for their repentance by his owne example which is in his hands to give them and not to cut them of and send them to hell as you teach and practice which is contrary to God who is patient towards mockers which walke after ther lusts 2. Pet. 3. Because he would have no mā to perish but would that all men whatsoever should come to repentance but you contrary to him vse all the meanes you can to cut Men of that they might perish in that you seke to destroy their bodies whilst they remaine in their errors A. I confesse that God commaundeth Mat. 13 That the good bad must grovv together vnto the end of the VVorld but that is in the Church C. Wel if that be the true exposition I pray you why do you then excomunicate any out off your Churche contrary to your owne acknowledg And here let all Men take notice that by this exposition you overthrowe your owne excomunication quite and accuse Christ for giveing a rule Mat. 18. and Th-appostle Paul and the church of Corinth for practizing that rule ● Cor 5. In cas●ing out of the Church For you say all must growe together to the end in the Church But the exposition of the Law-giver himselff is against you that the ●eild is the world vers 38. Yet in that you confesse that the wicked ād the Godly must be l●t alone in the Church vnto the end much more in the world vnto the end For if the wicked pollute not the Church sure it is they pollute not the world This then you are comaunded vnto vers 29.30 Nay gather them not let them growe together vnto the end of the world A. Let them come to Church they shall grovve together vnto the end C. Indeed I thinke so hereby you manifest you regard not how wicked and vngodlie men be so they come to your Church you wil not destroy thē though they remaine in their abhominable lusts but if they will not come to your Chur let thē be wheate or tares you wil gather thē and as much as in you is send them to bur●●n● Herein al mē may see as I said before that you seeke your owne glorie and obedience not gods ād so exalt your selves above God 2. thes 2 I. Wel I blesse God I see this as clearly as the sunne shyning in his brightnes that it is to feight against God to compel any contrarie to their consciences to performe any service vnto him in that there are so many places of Scripture comaunding the contrary C The whole new Testament throughout in all the doctrines and practices of Christ ād his disciples teach no such thinge as cōpelling men by persecutions ād afflictions to obey the go pel but the direct cōtrary viz to suffer at the hāds of the wicked whē they were persecuted for righteousnes sake to suffer it when the vnbeleevers ād wicked curse them to blesse pray for their repentance that God would forgive them never lay these sinnes to their charge as our Saviour Luk. 23 34. Stephen Act. 7.60 and the rest did And for a conclusiō of this point that your faith may bee full herein consider that wee are to wait for the Iewes conversion and not to destroy thē I. It is true that might give all men satisfaction in these thinges C. Oh yes if Men had any regard of God or his word they would never deale more in this thinge the lord wee see Rō 11. hath promised that
power off Rome The Beast or to that Spirituall cruell power off England his Image wheresoever they or eyther of them are exalted such a one and such persons shall drinke off the wine off Gods wrath and bee tormented in fire and brimstone and shall have no rest day nor night for evermore I. Your discription of the Beast the Papists will deny so will the English Lord Bbs and their followers deny your discription of his ymage but thousands will grant both and some will deny both as the Familists who say that Religiō standeth not in outward thinges ād therefore they wil submit to any outward service and they that do not so but suffex persecution say they are iustly persecuted C. Those enimies to the Crosse of Christ are most of them not worth enformation because for the most part they are such as do with an high hand sin after enlightninge haveing forsaken the way wherein they walked because they would not beare Christs Crosse but in that some simple soules may be seduced by them let vs a little in generall compare their opinion with the scriptures True it is that religion standeth not onely in outward thinges for God requireth the hart and truth in the inward parts but that God requireth not our subjection vpon feareful punishments to those outward ordinances which he requireth is a doctrine of devils as I shall prove And first for the outward ordinances off the old Testamēt which were meerly shadowes now are beggerly rudiments Gal. 4.16 what indignation the lord had towards them that transgressed Nadab and Abihu offering straing fire which the Lord hath not comaunded a fire went out from the Lord devoured them Levit. 10.1.2 The men off Bethsh●mosh lokeing into the outward arke which God had forbidden Num 4.20 The Lord slevve fifty thousand threescore and ten of them 1. Sam. 6.19 Ozza of a good intent leaninge his shoulder to the same outward arke which God forbad the Lord slewe him 1. Chro. 13 7.-10 Ozziah the King offering vp outward incense which God comaunded onely the Preist Num. 18.3.7 The Lord smit him with leprosye vntil his death 2. Chro. 26. Corah and his company what feareful judgments came vpon thē though he a Levite for presuming to meddle with the Preists office the earth openinge and swallowing them vp Num. 16. King Saule likewise offering vp incense in time off need as he thought the Lord rent his Kingdome from him 1. Sā 13. as also for his disobedience afterwards touchinge the fat of Amelecks cattle 1. Sā 15. How often was the wrath of the Lord powred downe vpon the Isralites because off their transgression of his outward ordinances in place person and thinges for it was a Low Levit. 17.3.4 That who so brought not his sacrifice to the place viz to the doore of the tabernacle of the congregation but offered it vp other where blood should be imputed to that man he should be cut off from among his people yea such sacrifices were estemed off God as offered to devils vers 7. the lord caused them to pronounce Dewt. 27.26 cursed be he that confirmeth not al the words of thir law to do them all the people must say so be it was God thus jealous of Moses ordinances ād is the lesse jelous of Christs must he die that dispiseth Moses law and shal he escape that dispiseth Christs vpon what pretence soever And Christ saith It becometh him all his to fulfill all righteousnes in outward ordināces as washinge with water Mat. 3.15 whosoever saith he knoweth God keepeth not his comaundments which are outward as wel as inward he is a lyar 1. Ioh. 2.4 whosoever breakes the least comaundment and teacheth men so he shal be called the least in the kingdome of heaven Mat. 5.19 whosoever will not heare that Prophet Chr Iesus in al thinges that he shal say vnto thē shal be destroyed out off his people Act. 3.22.23 the affectiōs of the soule are to be manifested by the actions of the body according to Gods word and al other good intēts or affections are abhominable Wee may not neither can wee Worship God with our Spirits and the Devill with our Bodies For VVee are bought VVith a price and therefore must not bee the Servants off Men but must glorifie God with our bodies with out spirits for they are his 1. Cor. 6.20 and. 7.23 And this mai suffice to satisfy any cōcerning the over throwe off this accursed conceit knowing also that Christ and his Apostles and all his Disciples to the end of the world might and may live peaceably enough from persecution if this doctrine might be observed viz submissiō with our bodies to any outward service The Lord discover such Hipocrites I. I blesse God I have learned of thApostle 2. Cor. 13.8 To say nothing against the truth but for the truth and therefore when I see thinges are evidently manifested by the scriptures disirous to submit ād not to cavil But you knowe it is pleaded they have the word and Sacraments in the English assemblies C. I confesse they have the scriptures in the which Gods misceries are conteyned which is locked vp from thē ād revealed to his Saincts Col. 1.26 which they woefully pervert to their owne destruction They have also imitations of Gods ordinances as water bread and wine ād other thinges which they use after their owne invētions which thinges maketh them boast so much of their Christianity and of their Church and which maketh them reason thus Wee are Gods people for wee have the word and Sacraments The Philistimes might better have reasoned 1. Sā 5. who had the true arke of God amongst them these have but a shewe Wee are Gods people for wee have Gods Arke and holy Oracles amongst vs. But I thinke they had no great cause to rejoyce there of in the ēd No more shal these have in the end when God recompenceth al that with hold the truth in vnrighteousnes Gods dealing is not now as it was of old he now reserveth punishmēt to the last day he is patiēt and would have men repent but they despise his bountifulnes and long suffering preaching peace when there is no peace I. It cannot be denyed but that the ministers preach many excellent truths and do bring people to much reformation in many thinges C. True it cannot be denyed For if the devil should come in his owne likenes men would resist him but because he trāsformeth himselfe into an Angel of light therefore he deceiveth So his ministers if they should teach al lyes mē would not be deceived by them nor plead for them but because they teach many truths people receive them but first for whatsoever they teach they neither could nor should teach publiquely their moueths should be stopped if they received not that their power to teach such truths frō those the Dragon sends ād therefore none cā receive those truths from thē