POPE JOANE A DIALOGVE BETWEENE A PROTESTANT AND A PAPISâ— Manifestly prouing that a woman called IOANE was Pope of Rome against the surmises and obiections made to the contrarie by Robert Beâ—â—â—â—mine and Baroniusâ—â—â—dinals â—â—â—dinals Florimandus Raemondus N. D. and 〈◊〉 Popish writers impudently denying the same By ALEXANDER COOKE LONDON Printed for ED. BLVNT and W. BARRET 1610. TO THE MOST REVEREND FATHER IN GOD TOBIAS MY LORD Archb. of Yorke his Grace Primate and Metropolitan of England IT is lamentable to consider how many starres are fallen of late from heauen how manie Goddesses on the earth haue departed from the faith and giuen heed vnto the spirit of errors and doctrines of slanderers to wit the Papists Yet me thinkes it is no matter of wonderment because we reade That if men receiue not the loue of the truth that they might be saued God in his iustice will giue them strong delusions to beleeue lies that they may be damned for few or none of these late Apostataes for any thing I can learne were euer in loue with the truth Among vs they were but they were not of vs as now appeares by their departing from vs for if they had bene of vs they would haue continued with vs doubtlesse they would neuer haue falne to Poperie For though Poperie be managed after the most politicke manner yet in it selfe it is a grosse Religion and the Perfiters thereof as shamelesse men in auowing manifest vntruths and denying knowne truths as euer set pen to paper All which it is as easie to proue as to obiect against them But my purpose at this time is to lay open their shame in denying knowne truths which though it may be shewed by diuers particulars as namely by Parsons and Bishops denying that they call their Pope their Lord God by Bellarmines denying that any Iesuite had any hand in the powder treason by their generall denying that Pope Honorius the first was an hereticke and by such like yet most apparently their impudehcy appeares in denying the report of Pope Ioane which is proued by a cloude of witnesses in this discourse which I make bold to present vnto your Grace for they are driuen to feigne to forge to cogge to play the fooles and in plaine English to lie all manner of lies for the couering of their shame in this Onuphrius Harding Saunders Cope Genebrard Bellarmine Bernartius Florimondus Papyrius Maso Baronius Parsons and diuers others who haue ioyned hand in hand with purpose to carrie this cause away by strong hand are so intangled in it that it is with them as with birds in the lime twigs which sticke the faster in by how much they flutter the more to get out VVhich if your Grace vpon perusing at your best leisure shall find true my humble desire is that you will giue me leaue to publish it vnder your Graces name partly that by it the simpler sort for I write not for the learned may haue a tast by this of the honesty or rather the dishonesty of Papists in haÌ„dling of points in controuersie and partly that it may be a testimonie of that reuerent respect which I acknowledge due to such Church-Gouernours as your Grace is who giue attendance vnto reading which the Apostle willed Timothy to do and after the example of the ancient Bishops preach often drawing on others not by words onely but by example also to performance of like exercises Hereafter if it please God that health and meanes of bookes serue I shall light on some more profitable argumeÌ„t In the meane while I pray God strengthen your Graces hands to the finishing of the Lords worke in the Prouince wherein you sit as one of the seuen Angels in the seuen Churches mentioned in the Reuelation that by your Graces meanes the Epha wherein Popish wickednesse sitteth may be lift vp betweene the earth and the heauen and caried out of the North into the land of Sinar and set there vpon his owne place Your Graces at commandment ALEXANDER COOKE TO THE POPISH or Catholicke Reader PApist or Catholicke chuse whether name thou hast a mind to for though I know that of later yeares thou art proud of both euen of the name Papist as well as of the name Catholicke yet I enuie thee neither only I would haue thee remember that that firebrand of hel Hildebrand commonly called Gregory the 7. was the first man who challenged it as his sole right to be called Papa that is Pope whence thou art called Papist and that diuers are of opinion as Hugo de Victore noteth that in some sence the diuell may be called a Catholicke I offer vnto thee here a discourse touching Pope Ioane if thou darest reade it for feare of falling into thy Popes curse whose Popedome I will make good vnto thee not by the testimonies of Pantaleon and Functius and Sleidan and Illyricus and Constantinus Phrygio and Iohn Bale and Robert Barnes because thou hast condemned their persons and their books too to hell but by the testimonies of thy brethren the sonnes of thine owne mother because as one saith Firmum est genus probationis quod etiam ab aduersario sumitur vt vertias etiam ab inimicis veritatis probetur that is a strong proofe which is wroong out of the aduersarie when the enemies of truth are driuen to beare witnesse vnto the truth And as another Amici contra amicum inimici pro inimico inuincibile testimonium est which sâ—unds as I conceiue it thus The testimony of a Papist against a Papist and the testimony of a Papist for a Protestant is without exception The reason why I haue framed it in way of Dialogue was that I might meete more fully with all the cauils which thy Proctors vse in pleading of this case and that it might be better vnderstood of coÌ„mon Readers who are sooner gulled with continued discourses If I haue spoken truly I would haue thee beare witnes with me vnto the truth if otherwise I am coÌ„eent thou strike me For though I hold thy Papisme in some respect to be worse then Atheisme agreably to a speech fathered vpon Epiphanius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heresie is worse then Infidelity and by consequent thy selfe a dangerous neighbour to dwell by because as one of thine owne Doctors writes Certè periculosius est cum haereticis quà m cum Samaritanis quà m cum gentilibus aut Mahumetanis agere It is questionlesse more dangerous to dwell by an hereticke then to dwell by a Samaritane by an heathen by a Turke yet I am not so farre out of loue with thee but I can be content to learne of thee as S. Austine did of Tyconius the hereticke if thou canst teach me Yea I professe that though it may be gathered out of Campian thy Champion and Tiburne-Martyr that thou beleeuest one heauen cannot hold thee and such as are of my opinion though
Costerus wish strangely that he may be damned both body and soule if any of vs be saued yet that hath not estranged me so farre from thee but that I wish thee well euen eyes to see the truth and ingenuitie to acknowledge it POPE IOANE A DIALOGVE BETWEENE A PROTESTANT AND a Papist manifestly prouing that a woman called Ioane was Pope of Rome PROTESTANT WEll met and welcome home Sir What new booke haue you brought vs downe from London this Mart PAP Oh I haue an excellent booke which discourseth at large about Pope Ioane whose Popedom you cast in the Catholiks teeth so oftē PROT. What language is it in I pray you French or Latine or English and who made it PAP It was first written in French but I haue it in Latine The Author of it is one Florimondus Raemondus PROT. Florimondus Raemondus what is he that I neuer heard of him before Is he and his booke of anie credite PAP He himselfe is reputed a very famous man for life and learning so that at this present he is one of the French Kings Councell at Burdeux and as for his booke it is of wonderfull esteeme PROT. With whom I pray you PAP Euen with Cardinall Baronius For he holds it the worthiest discourse that euer was made of that argument He professeth that he could haue found in his heart to haue inserted it into his Annales but that it is somewhat too large For by it as the Cardinall further noteth he hath so confounded all the packe of Heretickes who heretofore vpbraided the Catholickes with it that now they are ashamed of that which they haue said PROT. But hath any man else the like opinion of it PAP Yea marry Posseuin is of the same minde For Posseuin saith that he hath killed the heretickes outright That since the publishing of that booke the heretickes are whisht they dare talke no more of a Pope Ioane PROT. This is much but haue you read it PAP Read it Yea I haue read it againe and againe Besides I haue compared it with that which is written of the same argument by Buchingerus in Germany by Charanza in Spaine by Onuphrius and Bellarmine and Baronius in Italy by Turrian and Bernartius in Belgia by Pontacus in Aquitania by Genebrard and Papyrius Massonus in France by Sanders by Cope by Harding by Father Parsons and others of our owne countrey PROT. And what say you now after the reading of all these to the storie of Pope Ioane tell me in good earnest and dissemble not PAP I say the very truth is that the whole storie of Pope Ioane is a fable a fond and vaine fable a meere fable an hereticall fable a ridiculous fiction and so knowne to the learneder sort of Protestants among you but that you will not leaue to delude the world with it for lacke of other matter Yea I say further there are so many improbabilities and morall impossibilities in this tale as no man of any meane iudgement discretion or common sense will giue credite thereto but will easily see the vanitie thereof And in a word I say he was a knaue that deuised it and he is foole who beleeueth it PROT. Now this is excellent in good truth I see there is mettall in you But what reason haue you on your side that you are so peremptorie Did it not run for currant without controlment till within these fortie yeares or thereabout to wit till the year 1566 that Onuphrius the Frier began to bogle at it Was not Onuphrius the first that euer by reason sought to discredit the report of it And yet doth not euen he confesse that many men of worth as well as of ordinarie sort beleeued it for a truth Is it not to be found in Marianus Scotus in Sigebert in Gotefridus Viterbiensis in Iohannes de Parisiis in Martinus Polonus in Petrarch in Boccace in Ramulsus Cestrensis in Iohannes Lucidus in Alphonsus è Carthagena in Theodoricus de Niem in Chalcocondilas in Platina in Palmerius in Nauclerus in Sabellicus in Trithemius in Volateran in Bergomensis in Schedel in Laziardus in Fulgosus in Textor in Gassarus in Mantuan in Crantius in Charanza and a number moe of your owne faction and of your owne friends of which some were Grecians some Italians some Spaniards some French some Germains some Polonians some Scots some English and yet neuer a one of them a Lutheran Yea do we not find it in some of your stories set downe in pictures And is not so much to be gathered by that image of hers which is set vp amongst the rest of the images of the Popes in the renowned church of Siena in Italie and is to be seene there at this day which the Bishop of that place would not suffer to be defaced at the last repairing of that Church though your Iesuites did earnestly request him to deface it Was there not made of old for feare of such like after-claps a stoole of easement on which they were set at their creation for proofe of their humanitie Was there not a marble image set vp as a monumēt thereof in that place where she miscaried to wit in one of the chiefest streets in Rome which monument was to be seene likewise within these few yeares euen in Pius the 5. his time And is it not written by men among your selues that your Popes when they go in procession refuse to go through that streete in detestation of that fact and go further about How say you is it not euen thus PAP It is written I confesse that our Popes in detestation of that fact whē they go in procession to the Lateran Church refuse to go through that streete but they who write so mistake the matter For the true reason why they turne out of that street which is the nearer way is for that that streete is angusta anfractuosa a narrow streete and such a one as windes this way and that way and in that respect vnfit for so great atraine as ordinarily accompanies the Pope to passe orderly through as Onuphrius and Bellarmine and Florimondus haue obserued PROT. Say you so why but if it be true which Philippus Bergomensis hath storied this obseruation is false for Eo omisso c saith he speaking of the Popes turning out of that place of the streete wherein Dame Ioane was deliuered declina ad diuerticula vicosque sic loco detestabili postergato reintrantes iter perficiunt quod coeperunt that is Leauing that way they turne into by-lanes and by-streets as soone as they are beyond that detestable place they turne into their way againe and so go on in their procession For if vpon their leauing that streete they enter into by-lanes and by-streets and as soone as they are past that ominous place turne in againe the reason why they leaue that streete cannot be for that
that one Protasius the credit of the order of Franciscans sware to him that he saw such a booke in that Monasterie and that reading it all ouer he found no word touching such a Pope PROT. This would haue moued me somewhat to beleeue that the copie in that Monasterie wants this if Florimondus had sworne for the satisfying of his reader touching the truth of his report as he vrged the Franciscan to sweare to him for the iustifying of that which he told But Florimondus deliuers it barely of his word And I haue found him oft false of his tongue Wherefore I cannot trust him Florimondus would make vs beleeue that Michael the Emperours letter sent to Pope Nicolas wherein the Emperour obiecteth whatsoeuer might found to the disgrace of the Romane sea is extant to this day yet Baronius testifieth that they are not extant He writes that the Pope burnt them Yea Florimondus himselfe in another chapter forgetting the prouerbe Mendacem esse memorem oportet confesseth that they are lost Yet be it so that the copie which is in that Monasterie wants this Vnlesse Florimondus can proue that it is the originall or truly copied out of the originall he speaks not to the point as I shall shew by and by PAP Yea but he proues that it is the very originall it selfe For there as he saith Sigebert liued there he wrote this booke with his owne hand there he left it at his death as a monument of his loue There it is shewed by the Monkes to such as come thither for arare and ancient monument PROT. Sigebert liued not there when he writ that book He writ both that and many others in the Monastery of S. Vincentius within the citie of Metensis Which I speake not of mine owne head as Florimondus doth but out of Trithemius For in Trithemius you may reade so PAP Yet you cannot disproue Florimondus in that which he saith of his dying there and bequeathing of that booké by his will to that Monasterie for a legacie PROT. No indeed But neither can he proue his owne saying Now you know that Actori non reo incumbit probatio The plaintiffe not the defendant must bring in his proofe That which is nakedly affirmed is sufficiently answered whē it is barely denied Si dicere probare est pari ratione inficiari refutare est as you may reade in Bellarmine PAP Why but the Monkes of that house do shew it to all commers as Sigeberts owne PROT. That I beleeue For I haue read of a Monk who gaue out that he had brought from the East some of the sound of the bels which hung in Salomons temple And that he could shew among other reliks some of the haires which fell from the Seraphicall Angell when he came to imprint the fiue wounds of Christ in S. Francis bodie And I haue read of others who shew the Pilgrims that go to Ierusalem a three cornerd stone and beare them in hand that it is that very stone whereof Dauid spake saying The stone which the builders refused is the head of the corner PAP Tush those Monkes do but cozen folkes PROT. No more do the Monkes of Gemble in my opinion though it may be they are rather cozened then cozeners For many a Papist perswades himselfe he hath that which indeed he hath not As for example Many Papists are perswaded they haue that Syndon wherein Christs body was lapped when it was interred wherein as they say is to be seene to this day the picture of Christ whereas indeed by some of their owne mens confessions they haue but one made after that fashion Againe many are perswaded they haue one of those nailes wherewithall Christ was nailed on the crosse whereas they haue but one fashionèd after that naile or at most some naile wherewithall some Martyr of Christ was tormented And in like maner are they themselues deceiued in their conceit of other relickes But that which makes me most suspicious of your Monkes of Gemble is this I haue read that among many other goodly relickes which are shewed at Rome by the Popes commandement there is a Bible shewed which they say was written by S. Ierome himselfe euen with his owne hands and yet one of your owne profession professeth freely that he perusing it throughly found it was written by the commandement of one king Robert and by a bungling scriuener Illum ego diligentius inspectum comperiscriptum esse iussu regis vt opinor Roberti chirographo hominus imperiti saith Valla. Now I suppose if we had accesse to Gemble in Flanders perhaps we might find as much for discouering of their falshood in that which they report of the originall of Sigebert as your fellow found for the discouering of the others falshood who gaue out that the Bible which they shewed was of S. Ieroms writing PAP Suppose it be not the originall of Sigebert which is at Gemble yet you will not denie I hope but that it is some ancient copie which they esteeme so much of PROT. Be it so But will you thereupon conclude that the Author neuer writ it I presume you are not so ignorant but you know that words sentences and memorable accidents haue sometimes by negligence sometimes by wilfulnesse bene left out of copies as for example the words no not the Sonne of man Marke 13. 32. whereon your Iesuites as vpon a chiefe foundation build their doctrine of aequiuocation were wanting in many Greeke copies as S. Ambrose testifieth and yet both you and we do hold opinion that they were set downe by the Author in the first copie In like sort the storie touching Christs sweating agonie and the Angels comforting him Luke 22. 43. 44. was not to be found in many copies as Hilary and Ierome witnes which came to passe not for that it was neuer written by S. Luke but as Bellarmine in part and Sixtus Senensis more fully notes for that some simple Catholickes fearing it made for the Arians razed it out of their bookes So the storie of the adulterous woman in Iohn the 8. was wanting in many Manuscripts both Greeke and Latin and namely in a Manuscript of Eusebius yet that doth nothing preiudice the truth of our printed copies at this day in which it is no not in the opinion of you that are Papists For as Bellarmine proueth out of Austine this historie was blotted out of many books by the enemies of Gods truth In much like sort it seemeth as the words of Aelfricus which make against transubstantiation were cut out of a fragment of an Epistle of his in the library of Worcester as M. Foxe proueth euidently And as this story of Pope Ioane is cut out of a very faire Manuscript of Ranulfus Cestrensis which is to be seene at this day in the library of New Colledge in Oxford PAP Is this storie torne indeed
benefices next vacant And they should giue no benefice till they had prouided for so many competently He reports how Hugh the Cardinall bragd when Innocentius departed from Lions that whereas there were foure stewes at his coming thither he had left them but one Marry that reached from the one end of the towne to the other He reports how the Franciscans and Minorites by commandement of the Pope appointed all sorts of people yong and old men and women base and noble weak and strong sound and sicke to go for recouerie of the holy land And yet the next dare yea sometimes the same houre for money they dismissed them againe He reports how Pope Innocentius the fourth stirred vp the Christian people of Brabant and Flaunders to warre against Conradus the Emperour promising them for their labour for giuenesse of all their sinnes Yea he promised such warriers not onely forgiuenesse of sinnes for their owne vse but forgiuenesse of sinnes for their parents also The fathers and mothers of such as warred against Conradus had all their sinnes forgiuen them as well as the warriours themselues These and many such like tales he tels by the Pope which the truth it selfe inforced him to do But he meddles not with any thing which was done by any Pope within 1000. yeares after Christ And therefore no maruaile though he spake nothing of Pope Ioane PAP Iohn of Calabria a man famously known for a railer against the Popes spake nothing of this PROT. Iohn of Calabria told our king Richard the first that Antichrist was as then borne in Rome and that he should be made Pope Iohn of Calabria was generally reputed a Prophet a man of great learning Yet Iohn of Calabria was so farre from rayling against your Popes that if Bellarmine say true he spake very honorably of them And therefore his silence in this case doth not helpe you PAP Yea but Dante 's the Italian Poet would surely haue touched this storie if he had heard any inkling of it PROT. Why so Dante 's found fault onely with sixe of your Popes viz. with Anastasius the 2 Nicolas the 3 Boniface the 8 Clement the 5 Iohn the 22 and Celestine the 5 as Bellarmine notes Whereby it is plaine that he neuer purposed to raue vp all the filth which he found written of your Popes Questionlesse he might well haue heard of this for he liued after Martinus Polonus and in Martinus dayes the report of this was common Haue you any more to say PAP Yea And not onely the Latin writers but euen the greek Historiographers Zonaras Cedrenus Curopalatas and others that wrote before Martinus Polonus of matters concerning the Latine Church in those daies and were no friends to the same and would haue bene content of such an aduantage against it write nothing thereof at all Which is an euident proofe there was no such matter PROT. What an euident proofe PAP Yea an euident proofe which you may perceiue by Sutcliffes answer to father Parsons as he cals him for he neuer I warrant you so much as once names these Greeke Historiographers but suppresseth that cunningly or rather maliciously because he could frame no colourable answer vnto it PROT. D. Sutcliffe whom you scornfully call Sutcliffe neuer intended to trouble himself or his reader with laying open Parsons foolery in euery particular Otherwise assure your self he would not haue passed by this For it is a matter of no great cunning to shape this argument his answer For tell me Had you not once a Pope called Marke who sate as diuers of your own histories note 2 yeares 8 moneths and 20 daies And had you not another Pope called Marcellus who sate aboue 5 yeares PAP We had But what of that PROT. Your Pontacus and Genebrard confes that all the Greeke writers in a manner omit to speake of the former And that all Greeke writers without exception omit to speake of the latter Now if you notwithstanding their passing by of these be yet perswaded that these were Popes why may you not rest perswaded that there was a Pope Ioane though they do passe by her and write not one word of her I hope you beleeue many things whereof they write nothing We reade in your Legend yea In your Masse bookes that Heraclius the Emperour when he would haue entred in by the gate by which our Sauiour went to his passion clad like a king with the crosse on his shoulders that he was miraculously hindred and could not get through till he had cast off his princely attyre and put off his hole and his shooes Do not you beleeue this I am sure you do Yet Gretzer acknowledgeth that the Grecians such as Cedrenus and Zonoras write nothing of this professing that he likes it neuer a whit the worse for their silence For they as he further notes omitted many other matters of truth whereof no man doubts But how know you that no Grecian euer writ of such an accident It seemes that they did because Chalcocondylas a Grecian of later yeares hath writ thereof as i before I haue shewed you For from whence could he haue it but from the Grecians his ancestors You must bring more euident proofe then this is or else you will neuer perswade any man offence and reason that the storie of Pope Ioane which is commended to vs by so great a cloud of witnesses is fabulous PAP Why but Hermannus Contractus and Conradus Abbas Vrspergensis and others mo write nothing of this Ioane of yours PROT. And what of that will you conclude thereupon that there was neuer any such woman Pope Tell me in good earnest do arguments taken from authoritie of a few men hold negatiuely Is it a good argument S. Paul S. Luke and Seneca do not say that Peter was at Rome ergo Peter was not at Rome Bellarmine denies this argument Respondeo saith Bellarmine Nihil concludi ex argumentis ab authoritate negatiuè Non enim sequitur Lucas Paulus Seneca non dicunt Petrum fuisse Romae igitur non fuit Petrus Romae Non enim isti tres omnia dicere debuerunt plus creditur tribus testibus affirmantibus quà m mille nihil dicentibus modò isti non negent quod alij affirmant that is I answer negatiue arguments are nought worth For it followes not that S. Peter was neuer at Rome because Luke Paul and Seneca do not report that he was at Rome For these three were not bound to report all that was true Besides three witnesses speaking to a cause deserue more credite then a thousand who stand mute not denying that which is witnessed by the three And in another place Certè saith Bellarmine magis credi debet tribus testibus affirmantibus quà m infinitis nihil dicentibus that is Verily a man should rather beleeue three witnesses speaking to a cause then