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A14368 A stronge battery against the idolatrous inuocation of the dead saintes, and against the hauyng or setting up of images in the house of prayer, or in any other place where there is any paril of idolatrye, made dialoguewise by Iohn Veron VĂ©ron, John, d. 1563. 1562 (1562) STC 24686; ESTC S102670 105,295 264

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These thyngs haue been doone among the heathen whose goddes were no gods but deuyls and that by the permission and suffrance of God because of their horrible idolatry that they dyd most shamefully wallow in But it foloweth not that the lyke may be done among the people of God Philalethes Answer It is moste manyfeste and playne that God doth permit and suffer Sathan to worke suche thynges among his people For dothe not God geue vnto false Prophetes power to worke miracles Deute 19. that so he may try and proue his people whether their loue him or not And whether they will stedfastly cleaue vnto his lawes And least it shold be said that this was don amōg the Iewes but that it is otherwise in the churche of Christ we haue an excellent prophecie of the holy apostle wher he saith on this maner 2. Thes 2 Than shall the wycked man be reuealed whom the Lord shall consume with the spirite of his mouth and shal abolishe with the bryghtnesse of his cōming euē him whose cōmīg is by the woorkyng of Sathan with all power and signes and lying wonders And in all deceauablenesse of vnrightuousnesse emong theim that perishe because they receaued not the loue of the truthe that they myght bee saued And therfore god shal send them strong delusion that they should beleue lyes that all they might be damned whiche beleued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrightuousnesse Do we not lerne by these words of thapostle that in the later days there shall be wonders and signes in the kingdome of Antichriste And doubtlesse There bee vvonders and signes in the kingdome of Antichrist as they are by the rightous iudgement of God ordeined for to deceiue them that haue a delight in vnrightuousnesse so doo they also take away sicknesses and diseases that the vngodly contemners of the truth may the more be blynded and confirmed in their error Are not also these Christes wordes Many shall say to me in that day Lorde haue we not by thy name prophecied he we not by thy name cast out deuils and doone or wrought great miracles And thē will I confesse to them I neuer knew you Depart ye from me ye workers of iniquitie Mat. 24. And in an other place There saith he shall arise false Christes and false prophetes and shal shewe great signes and wonders so that if it were possible they shoulde deceaue the very elect It doeth sufficiently appeare by this that many times it cometh to passe not onely among the heathē and Iewes but also in the chirche of God that by the inuocation of them that are no Goddes not a fewe haue ben and are healed Yet no man ought thervppon to conclude that it is laufull in the time of trouble to call vpon any other than vppon the true lyuyng God all creatures be they neuer so excellent beyng layde asyde Similitude Procreation of children doth not excuse vvhooredome no more doth the vvorking of miracles excuse the idolatrous inuocatiō of Saincts Eutrepelus I am of this opinion that miracles doo no more excuse the inuocation and worshippyng of Saintes than the conception gettyng or procreation of children can excuse adulterie whoredome although it be a miracle that the child is conceiued in the mothers wōbe that there it is norished and fed and at lengthe in his due tyme brought forth into the worlde and suche a myracle as can onely be doone and wrought by the diuine vertue and power of God Likewise he that stealeth bread or meat if he do eate it he shal bothe take away his hunger and also feede his bodye though this vertue and power to feede the body doeth onely perteyne to God Shall we therfore excuse whooredom adulterie and theft Didymus No mā I trow will be of that mynde Eutrapelus Howe can then the inuocation of Sainces which the whole scripture dooeth disauouche be excused by shewyng or workyng of myracles Therfore when thei say why should we not call vpon the Saintes sithe that many as we se dayly by experiēce haue ben bothe healed and also deliuered from the perills and dangers that they were in by that meane It is euen as if the horemōger shold say Why shuld I not cleaue vnto a harlot sith the I do aswell get childrē of her as of a laufull wife or as if that these shuld likewise say Why should I toyle or labor sith that by stealyng I can helpe my necessitie nede As then it is not laufull for any man to seke to haue childrē by adultery and whoredom although mē may haue issu that way nor yet by pickyng stealing to helpe the necessities of his body althogh many do lyue by theft but it is the part of an honest mā to seke to haue issue by honest matrimonie wedlock by due labor to get his liuing so it is the dutie of a true christē mā The abolishing of the similitude in what trouble peril or dāger so euer he be to seke for help deliuerāce not by the vnlauful calling vpon the dead Saints althogh many haue receaued their helth by it but by the faithful inuocation only of the true lyuing eternall god And as an honest man had lieffer to bee withoute childrē than to get them in aduoutrie whoredome Similitude and to byte his bread verye nere rather than to lyue by thefte and other vnlaufull meanes so he that feareth God vnfeignedly hath lieffer to suffer any kynde of affliction than to seke for healpe and deliuerance by the forbidden inuocatiō of dead creatures Albion Wel I graunt that the dead Sainctes ought not to bee called vppon as gods I meane that they ought not to be called vpon as thoughe they their selues should help vs A good Chift of the papistes ▪ in our troubles and aduersities but that wee ought to call vpon them as beyng our mediators aduocates and intercessors which doo make intercession vnto God for vs. Philalethes Where I pray you brother Albion haue ye learned this diuinitie So are we wont always to excuse the want or lacke of faith Wh● doo we not rather praye vnto God out heauenly Father sith that in so many places he wil haue vs so for to doo Albion Iohn 9. Obie 4. Because we are sinners And ye know what the scripture saith Peccatores nō and●r Deus God heareth not synners but them that are obedient to his will Philalethes That we are sinners we haue that cōmune with al mortall men For Answer 8 King ● 1 Iohn 1. A difference bet●ixt sinners there is no man that synneth not And if we shold say We haue no sin we deceaue our selues and the truthe is not in vs. But this difference dothe the scriptures pu●fe betwixte synners that some are always ready to ●●p●nt whensoeuer they be eyther by the outwarde preachyng of Gods word or by the inwarde motion of the holy ghost moued therto and some agayne wyll neuer
the inuocation or calling vpon of the dead saints For why should he els say that the chirsten people did keepe the me●ories or remembrāces of the martyrs that they might be helped by their prayers Philaleth● ▪ But howe dothe this agree with that whiche he writeth bothe in this place and also in the two and twentieth boke De ciuitate Dei and tenth chapiter He saith plainely in the place before alleaged that they did not set vp altars nor yet offered vp sacrifices vnto the martyres And in the boke De ciuitate Dei which we spake of euē now he writeth thus The Gentiles haue builded temples set by altars ordeined priests and offred sacrifices vnto their gods But we do not buyld vp temples vnto our martirs as vnto gods but remembrances as vnto dead men whose spirites soules do lyue with God Neither doo we there set vp aultars in the whiche we shold offer sacrifices vnto martires but we do offer sacrifices vnto the only God of the martirs and ours at the which sacrifice as men of God which haue ouercomed the world with theyr confession they are in theyr place and in their order named And yet they be not called vpon or prayed vnto of the priest that offreth the sacrifice For Praiers are ●●e sacrifi●es of the ele●● a●d ●●osen of god he is the priest of god not theirs Nowe this is most euident plaine the prayers are the sacrifices of the saints I mean of the elect and chosen people of God beyng sanctified in the blood of his son Iesus Christ we mai cōclude then euē vpon the wordes of S. Augustin that prayers ought to be offered vnto God only and not vnto the dead sainctes that is that God onely not the dead saintes ought of al the godly to be called vpon Herevnto dothe that belong and pertaine whiche he speaketh also in that place sayenge Sancti vel homines vel angeli id sibi tribu● nolunt quod vni deo deberi no●unt Holy men or holye aungelles will not haue the same to bee attributed vnto theym which they knowe to be due vnto God onely We maye gather by this that they will none of our prayers nor of our inuocation The proude diuelishe spirites do vsurpe that which doth perteine vnto God onely Therefore as Daniell woulde aske nothyng of any man Danie ● but of God only so all the godly will in their praiers call vpon none other but on the true lyuyng God thorough his sonne Iesus Christ our lord and of him only aske all thynges that they haue neede of Nowe as touching his opinion wherby he doothe thynke and suppose that the soules of the righteous doo pray for vs in heauen for as much as it is only grounded vpon coniectures or gessyng and not vppon the infallible worde of God nor vpon any strong argumentes or reasons taken out of the same we may without any perill of our saluation reiect or refuse it cleauing vnto that whiche we haue alleadged before oute of his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda wher he goūdeth himselfe altogether vpon the holy scriptures affirmyng that the blessed soules departed be paste all sollicitude and care for the liuing Albion Nowe sithe that the sayinges of the fathers will not helpe ●h ect 15 e● 48 I will come to the plain scriptures These are Iacobs wordes The aungell which hath deliuered me from all euill blesse the children let my name be called vpon them and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac In this autoritye of the scriptures they note two speciall thinges Fyrste how that Iacob dothe confesse that he was deliuered by the aungell and that this aungel doth blesse Secondly how that his name and the name of his fathers shoulde be called vpon those children which is as much as if he should haue sayde They shall call vppon my name and vpon the name of my forefathers ●ach● 1. Herunto do they adde this place of Zacharye And the aungell of the Lorde aunswered and sayde O Lorde of hostes how lōg wilt thou be vnmercifull to Hierusalem and to the cities of Iuda with whom thou hast ben displeased nowe these three score and ten yeres Hereby doe we plainely learne say they that the aungels doo care for our miseries and praye for vs. They be also kepers guides of mē yea they be appointed to waite vpon them For thus we rede in Exodus Exod. ●3 Behold saith the lord I send myn angel before thee to kepe thee in thy way to bring thee to the place which I haue prepared And in the psalmes Psal 91. for he shal geue his angels charge ouer thee to kepe thee in all thy ways They shall beare thee in their hands that thou hurt not thy fote against a stone Dani. 10. The angels be also called presidents of realmes because that vnto them whole contreis be cōmitted Phil. First formost as touchyng those thinges that bee generally obiected or brought against vs of the angels Answer how they do blesse pray for vs howe they are presidentes guides kepers bothe of men and of realmes I haue lieffer bryng the answeres of the ancient fathers than myne own reasons Lactātius in his diuine institutions writeth after this maner Lactanti insti 2. li. ca 17. Neither hath God nede of any name sith that the is alone nor the angels sith they be immortall will suffer themselues to be called goddes whose one and only office and duetye is to bee at the commaundemente and becke of GOD. For we saye that the worlde is gouerned of god as a prouince is by a ruler whose apparitours and officers no man will cal his felowes in the gouernement of the prouince And yet they may do many thinges besydes the commaundemente of the ruler through his ignoraunce whiche is an humayne infirmitye But the ruler gouernour of the whole world who knoweth all thinges and from whose eies nothyng is hidden hath alone with his sonne power ouer all thynges neither is there any thyng in the angelles but a necessitie to obeye Therfore they will haue no honour to be attributed vnto them whose honor is in god But they which are reuolted and fallen awaye from the ministerye and seruice of god do go about to chalenge vnto theym selues the name of god and the worshipping of the gods Saint Augustine Au. lib. 10 de ciuitate dei ca. 12. dothe in all thynges agree with Lactantius What miracles soeuer sayeth this holy father bee so diuinely wrought done eyther by angels or by som other mean that they do cōmend the religion worshipping of the only god in whom only the blessedful lyfe is we must beleue that they are truly done of them or by them whiche do loue vs according to the truth godlinesse God him selfe working in them And when the aungels do heare vs god him selfe doth heare in theym as in his true