I cannot deny but that I finde all these and the Churches vnder them still charged to holde errours and heresies but this then withall I infer the more true that it is and hath beene thus with them the more euident it is of what small acount this personall and locall succession is of it selfe either to giue credit to Bishops and Pastours or their religiō that can plead that And this further I adde if these be sufficient causes to make their alleadged succession to be of no valew then there is as great cause why succession bragged on so much by the Romanists should be reiected as a thing not worth the naming For not onely in inferiour places of Bishops and Priestes which is a thing that they will not striue with vs about it is so manifest that there haue beene many heretiques amongst them but also euen in their line of Popes who as some of them hold cannot erre there haue bene sundry heretiques also For Tertullian contra Praxeam writeth of a Bishop of Rome that did allow of the Prophesies of Montanus as he saieth therefore sent letters of communion to the Churches of Asia and Phrigia thereabout And Athanasius in his epistle ad solitariam vitam agentes and so also Damasus in the life of Liberius and Hierō de ecclesiasticis scriptoribus testifie that Pope Liberius was drawen in the ende to subscribe to Arianisme And Honorius died an heretique as it is to be seene in the first general councel Act. 12. 13. c. Liberatus also Breuiarii Cap. 22. witnesseth that Vigilius in secret fauoured heretiques Anastasius the second fell into a condemned heresie as we read Dist 19. Cap. Anastasius and therefore would haue restored Accatius a condemned heretique And yet I say nothing of Pope Iohn 23. condemned for an heretique by the councell of Cōstance the schole of Paris for denying in effect the immortality of the soule Yea the euidence of the trueth in this point is so open and strong that it hath caused their owne frends to condemne them of grosse flattery that holde that Popes haue not and cannot fall into heresie as any man may see that will read Alphonsus contra haereses lib. 1. Cap. 2. 4. Lyra vpon the 16 of Matth. and the third Synodall Epistle of the councell of Basill And that the Romish Church doeth now holde as grosse and palpable errours and heresies as they charge these withall if I proue not ere I haue done with Albine I will neuer craue credit either to our ministers or to our Churches and cause Wherfore to leaue the proofe of this to his place or places to goe on with that which I haue vndertooke to proue against them concerning this their brag of right succession whereas thirdly I saied that though we were not able to deduce or deriue downe from the Apostles wtout interruption any locall and personall succession vnto our Ministers that now bee yet as long as ours teach and our people embrace the same doctrine that they taught wee are well enough whatsoeuer they say to the contrary that resteth onely now in this case to be proued But before I come to the proofe of this least in this my assertion I be mistaken I would first that it were marked that I speake but by way of supposition that is if we were not able to set downe a continued line downe from them to vs without any interruption for in the 4. Chapter following I hope I shall set downe such a descent of our Church from them to vs as whereby it may sufficiently appeare that there was neuer age nor time since but our Church and religion hath had her teachers and hearers Secondly I would haue it also vnderstoode that my meaning is though it were so that wee could not make recitall or demonstration of any such descent or succession in that processe of time distance of place and the force and subtlety of our enemies kept vs from knowing their names persons and places that yet for the continuance of the trueth and the Church of Christ amongst men I constantly holde and beleeue that there hath beene a continuall and vninterrupted succession of teachers and embracers of GODS trueth whereof his Church consistes euen from the first beginning thereof and shall bee to the ende Onely this is it that thereby I am contented bee insinuated that the Churches of Christ if they can proue that they are taught by such ministers as God doeth raise vp vnto them according vnto his good pleasure whither ordinarily or extraordinarily and that they embrace no other doctrine but that which Christ and his Apostles taught witnes the canonicall scriptures that then they are to be accounted Apostolike and holy Churches of God and that in such a case especially in and after great persecutiōs ruines long oppressions of their mēbers children they neede not to be daunted nor discouraged neither in respect of their ministers and teachers nor in respect of their doctrine though they cannot be able lineally to name the persons either by whom their ministers downe from the Apostles haue had their vocation deriued vnto them or else by whom euer since that trueth hath beene continued For howsoeuer in visible Churches of GOD whiles they stande in florishing or vnoppressed state and condition by the fury of persecutours there is a set order and forme visibly to bee obserued in the vocation of Church ministers in respect of which estates and times it is easie for them that liue therein or within the knowledge and remembrāce thereof to make demonstration of the lyne of succeson yet when in the iust iudgement of God the Churches shall bee oppressed as now a long a time they haue beene vnder the tyranny of Antichrist then and after such a time such a thing growes to many not onely harde but also impossible And in such tymes wee finde that the Lorde of his wisedome and power to continue yet his Church rayseth vp men though not by the ordinary way vsed in the former tymes as after the dispersion of the Church at Hierusalem by meanes of the persecution there when Stephen was stoned we reade that the Disciples beeing dispersed and namely with them Philip the Deacon that hee preached the Apostles not aware thereof for any thing that appears so vnder Cōstātine Antonius the heremite taught at Alexandria and vnder Valens Aphraates Flauianus and Iulianus at Antioch beeing then but Monkes who in those dayes were not so much as counted amongst Clarkes as wee reade in Nicephorus libro 11. Chap. 15. These thinges thus premised thereby not onely my meaning shall rightly bee conceiued but also that which I haue saied in some sort is already confirmed But my reason indeede is that true and sounde apostolicke doctrine in the good prouidence of God towards his Church opened and continued in the same though by men not comming to their places of teaching by the ordinary way alwayes but sometimes somewhat
will shal bee founde flockes of goates and not of sheepe and foxes and wolues seeking the destruction of the sheepe rather then true sheepeheardes But you would make the Reader beleeue that Salomon in this place by you cyted out of the first of the Canticles doeth teach the true Church safelie alwaies to pitch her tentes and to feede by the visible and apparent succession of pastours which from age to age can leade her without leauing her by the waie euen to Christes time Which you saie yours can doe and ours cannot boldlie aduouching that vnlesse we be not ashamed to lie wee cannot shew where our Church or Religion was an hundreth yeares agoe and that wee cannot denie but Luther began to preach our new Gospell in the yeare 1517. And thus againe partlie by this note of visible succession of pastours and partly by vpbrayding vs with certaine differences of opinions amongst vs about the maner of Christes presence and diuerse and sundrie fantasticall heresies that of late daies haue sprung vp and beene reuiued you labour to iustifie your Synagogue of Rome and to condemne our Church of Christ which thinges you harpe vpon very much and often afterwarde in this your treatise Wherefore to aunswere you to all these thinges here once for all first I tell you you offer violence to Salomons wordes in making them to containe a prophesie of any such perpetuall and visible succession of flockes and pastours in the possession of one trueth as you inferre thereupon and make it the speciall marke and note to discerne Christes true Church from all that falsely bee so called For then it should bee contrarie to that view of the state of Christes true Church which I haue set downe vnto you and prooued by infallible arguments in the first Chapter which may not be seâ—ing the scripture alwaies agreeth with it selfe And yet the Church may haue good vse of Salomons aduise giuen her here in her greatest ruins and interruptions of her ordinarie and visible forme and beautie in looking to the visible flockes and sheepheardes that were before that God so chastised her as in Achaz time in looking to and following those that were in Dauids and Salomons timeâ— in Manasses and Ammons time in looking to and following those in Ezechiaths Iehosaphats times in the time of the captiuity in looking to following those that were in Iosiahs time And yet doe not so take me as though I thought that either Christes true Church or the true sheepheards thereof did at anie time vtterâ—â— cease or faile for I am perswaded they neuer did nor shall But this onelie is the thing that I now say that though this place of the Canticles doeth shewe that in no time there is any true flockâ— of Christ but there hath gone before a flocke and shepheardes which that may safely followe euen to the finding of Christ yet it proueth not that there hath alwaies immediately gone before it from time to time some visible so apparent flockes and shepheards one immediately succeeding another as that the names of the sheepe and shepheardes are alwaies famously knowen and therefore easily to be reckoned vp of euery one which are the thinges which you seeme to inferre hereof and therefore require of vs to bee done or else you would faine make the Reader beleeue that wee neither are the Church haue the trueth nor true right ministers thereof Wherein many waies you offer vs great wrong for after you your selfe distrusting belike that in any seate or line of Bishops without interruption this can be performed speaking of your line of Popes whereof all the sort of you bragge in this case most cap. 8. to vpholde and drawe along your right succession you tell vs flatly you meane not when you speak thereof onely of them but of al Bishops elswhere that they may continue it in the interruptions of that liue somewhere else and yet at our handes you require vnder the penalty aforesaied that we should froÌ„ age to age and from person to person orderly succeeding one another deduce ours For when we say it was continued alwaies by some in some other places when wee can no longer finde it in your Romish see whereinto by little and little you haue craftily â—rept and wherein for many hundred yeares before men of our Church and Religion sate and taught you reiect that our answere as a shift Another wrong that you offer vs herein is this that your Antichristian Synagogue hauing according to the prophesie Reuel 12. persecuted our flocke into the wildernes with the sheepherdes thereof you require that wee should euen in respect of such decaied distressed times of the church giue you as euident demonstration of our flockes and sheepheardes as may bee giuen thereof in the florishing and peaceable state of the same For there is no reason in requiring that in the decaies and ruines of the Church which accompanieth alwaies the Church in her prosperous and standing estate Besides herein you offer vs the greater wrong in that notwithstanding it be graunted of vs that both perpetuall continuance of the Catholique faith and also some kinde of succession therefore of teachers be necessary alwaies for the continuation of the Church yet you cannot but knowe especially seing that prophesie before named that also 2. Thes 2. must bee fulfilled of the church of Christ in respect of some time of her soiourning here on earth that thereupon it followeth not that therefore their succession is visible and demonstrable alwaies in your sence or else wee must yeelde that there were none such For who is so simple but hee is resolued that all men now aliue come by lineall succession from some of Adams children and yet fewe or none can bee found that can rightlie no not the skilfullest harrold of them all deduce their pedagree from thence Must it therefore followe that there hath not alwaies beene for all that a certaine lineall descent if you should thus inferre euery one might laugh at your follie For long processe of time distance of place betwixt some of our progenitours and vs lacke of Cronicles or the neglect of such genealogyes in them alterations of names and countries and diuerse such like things maketh the one not onely hard but for the most part impossible and yet no man doubteth of the certainty of the other Euen so in this our present question most certaine it is there haue alwaies beene both flockes sheepherdes to continue both the trueth Christes church For that wee graunt is necessarie but yet through continuance of time force of your Antichristian persecution distance perhaps of the flockes and sheepeheards in place from vs that God in some ages vnder your tyranny hath vsed to continue his church by and lacke of faithfull and carefull writers to cronicle such matters especially your wouluish and foxy sheepheardes beeing alwaies watchfull and mindefull to their vttermost either to blot out their memories quite in not
but especially their doctrine hath bene directly contrary in a multitude of most material points of Christian religion to the doctrine taught vs in the Scripture as I shew in diuers places of this booke wee haue as we are counselled Apocal. 18. seperated our selues froÌ„ you and them least by holding society with you in these your sinnes we should in the iustice of God haue beene driuen also in the end to bee partakers with you in your plagues And therefore to conclude this chapter though you bragge that you haue two things to quiet your consciences withal that you beleeue a doctrine that your pastours the vniuersal Church haue taught you 1500. years and that their ill liues cannot hurt you yet in deede and trueth you haue neither of both for your ill liues being ioyned with ill doctrine hath bereaued you of both so you haue had nether the vniuersal Church of Christ but a particuler Synagogue of your own nor any sound or good pastour either for life or religion these 600 or 700 yeares to teach you your faith The X. Chapter NOw to turne vnto the taking of your accompts maie it please you to shew vs how you haue followed the steps of the flocke of Christ according to the counsel that we gaue to his reasonable sheepe as we haue saied before who hath taught you the way that you doe follow what doctours were your first tutors who hath taught you that the precious body of our Sauiour is not really in the Sacrament of the Altar who hath taught the doctrine or if it be not griefe vnto you heresie which you would haue vs to receiue as a Gospell I know before hand that you will alleadge me Iesus Christ and his holie Apostles whose steppes you doe professe to follow preaching euery where that there is no difference betweene your Church or to say trueth Synagogue the church of the Apostles But I pray let me vnderstand by what means you can ioine your selues vnto the Church of the Apostles seing that a This is an impudent vntruth you condemne cut off all the Christians that haue beene are betweene you them For to verifie this I will alleage no other but your owne workes for Caluin in his Institutions at the Treatise of the Supper of the Lord speaking of the oblation of the bodie of our Sauiour Christ as it was offered in olde time he doeth write punctuallie these wordes Caluinus in suâ institutione traditâ de Coenâ Domini I finde saieth he that those of old time haue changed this fashion otherwise then the Institution of our Sauiour did require seeing that their supper did represeÌ„t a certaine spectacle of a strange inuention or at the least of a new maner There is nothing more sure vnto the faithful theÌ„ for theÌ„ to holde themselues vnto the pure ordinance of the Lord by whoÌ„ it was called a supper to the ende that onely his authority may be our rule Yet it is true that when I consider their good meaning and that their intent was neuer to derogate froÌ„ the onely sacrifice of Christ I dare not condeÌ„ne theÌ„ of folly and yet I thinke that one cannot excuse theÌ„ that they haue not somewhat failed in the exteriour forme for they haue followed more the Ceremonies of the Iews theÌ„ the order of Iesus Christ did permit And this is the point in which they ought to be resisted for they haue conformed to much vnto the old TestameÌ„t not contenting theÌ„selues with the simple institution of Christ they haue to much inclined themselues vnto the shadowed Ceremonies of the Iewes law These are Caluins words The Reader may by them see well how this noble Reformer of the Gospel doeth correct al ages and Churches bee they of Martyrs CoÌ„fessours Doctours Interpreters Preachers or any others from the Apostles time vnto our age yet doeth he not denie but that hauing some regard of their simple ignoraÌ„ce he is content to be so good to theÌ„ as for this time not to condemne their errour or impietie because that which they did was with a good intent but yet fearing that the bearing them to much fauour would trouble his conscience he giueth sentence against them saying that a Yet this proueâ—h not that for the which you alleadged him they ought to be resisted because they were not content with the onely institution of Christ but rather that in this case they haue followed the shadowes of the Iewes Now for my part I thinke Caluin his fellowes so scrupulous that they would not ioine themselues vnto persons that are spotted with Iewish Ceremonies b Are you not ashamed thus to bely him is it not euidâ—nt in his words that hee speaketh but onely of some in olde time And because that all maner of people how wise soeuer they were from the Apostles time vntill our daies haue fallen into this errour he doeth counsel my masters his deformed followers according to his sentence to follow none of them at al but only the pure word of the Lord preached by Iesus Christ and by his aboue mentioned Apostles The X. Chapter IN that by the Scriptures we are able to iustifie our doctrine and therfore diuerse times haue called vpon you to come to that trial and yet cannot by any means bring you vnto it that we are sure that that doctrine therein warranted hath alwaies by God by the meanes he hath appointed for that purpose beene preserued and continued in his Church You returning now againe to take accounts of vs how we haue followed the flocke of Christs sheep that weÌ„t before vs fed by the tents of his shepheards are answered And yet for your better and more plaine satisfying who hath taught vs the way that we follow who were the Doctours that were ouâ— first tutors we answere you that Christ his Apostles EuaÌ„gelists in the new Testament were our first tutors since them in the principal points of our religion the aucient Fathers whose names and monumeÌ„ts are knowen vnto the Church that liued for 1000. years after Christ those that I named vnto you before in my answer to your 4 Chapter But particulerly you would know of vs who hath taught vs to deny the reall presence of Christs body in the Sacrament of the altar Here I suppose you meane by real presence that real presence which is in this case now taught and receiued in your Church vnder the formes of bread and wine to the mouthes of al receiuers be they faithful or faithlesse for otherwise none of vs doe deny a true and most certaine presence of Christ to the faith of the right receiuer This theÌ„ being your meaning we do not onely as you suppose answere you that we haue learned of Christ his Apostles to deny it but also of al the ancieÌ„t writers of credit accouÌ„t in the Church for 700 or 800 years togither since we haue bene coÌ„tinued in the same
of such vayne wordes as these aboue twenty times I am sure without any proofe at al therein repeated Indeed if in al your life you could proue but halfe so much as confidently here you set downe then you were a notable fellow indeede and then truely we would striue no longer with you But in the meane time seeing we know your speeches are such as you can neuer proue and that we are able against you both to proue the falshoode of yours and the trueth of our owne blame vs not if wee esteeme not your words Yet lest you should saie that these likewise are but words in vs as the former haue beene in you though I see no reason to the contrary but that our words containing a iust and true denial of yours were sufficient confutation thereof I say and will proue it that you shew your selfe a man past al shame in writing here as you doe that all the ancient Catholicke Church which hath continued visible since the comming of Christ vnto this day al the doctours of all the vniuersities all the Empires kingdomes priuate states throughout al the world are against vs for they haue al receiued honoured that doctrine that we count papisticall For first such is the newnes thereof as I haue plentifully shewed in diuers places already of this booke that none of all these for sundry 100. yeares were once euer acquainted therwith yea that diuers of your assertions which are the very principallest of your opinions as namely your dotcrine of Transubstantiation of your Popes being in authority aboue generall Councels and of denying the cuppe to the lay people are not yet of 400. yeares age and continuance And it is notoriously knowen that in the daies of Gregory the 9 about the yeare of Christ 1230 by occasion of iniury and oppression offered by the Pope to that Church that the Greeke Easterne Churches departed quite from the Church of Rome and neuer since though it hath beene oft attempted could be brought to hold communion therewith againe insomuch that in your conuenticle at Trent you haue condemned them for schismatical and heretical Churches And these Churches as it is noted in an ancient record in the Church of Herford differ from yours at the least in 29 articles And they holde yours excommunicate and an Apostata Church vnto this day And vnlesse your reading be very small you cannot be ignorant that Math Paris writeth that the Patriarch of Constantinople at the Councell of Lyons shortly after this breach shewed that of 30. bishoprickes in Greece the Pope had not three that then held communion with him and that all Antioch and the Empire of Romania to the gates of Constantinople was gone quite from him There is also extant in print in ancient record an Epistle writen about seuen yeares after this breach began in the yeare 1237 by one Germanus Patriarch of Constantinople vnto the Pope wherein not only he laboureth to make him see that the occasion therof was that he tooke more vpon him ouer those Churches then he should but amongst other argumēts to persuade him to see his folly he sheweth him that not onely the Greeke Churches themselues but that al so the Aethiopians Syrians Hiberians Alani Gothi Charari with innumerable people of Russia and the mighty kingdome of the Vulgarians held communion with his Church of Constantinople and so by occasion of this schisme had forsakē felowship with the Roman Church And the Cosmographers write that the iurisdiction of the Patriarch of Canstantinople reacheth so farre that all Greece Misia Belgaria Thrasia Walachia Moldauia Russia Muscouia the iles of the Aegaean sea and Asia the lesse bee vnder the same It is also reported by authours of good credit that at this day vnder the other Patriarchs of Antioch Alexandria Hierusalem and vnder the other in the dominions of Presbyter Iohn in Africa there be infinit numbers of Churches and Christians differing from yours and ioining with ours in manie thinges So that Churches also both in the East North and South and that of very great amplitude within the time that you speake of haue professed Christ and yet haue neuer beene acquainted with most or many at the least of the pointes for the which your religion is counted of vs Papisticall in all which there haue beene some doctours vniuersities Empires Princes and priuate men no doubt since Christ before you wrote that neither honoured nor receiued your papistical religiō Yea but that merueilously you ouershot your selfe you might haue remembred that within the time limited by you in these Westerne partes there haue beene euen vnder your Popes nose and in his greatest ruffe many doctours vniuersities and some Emperours kings and priuate estates that haue neither receiued nor so honoured your religiō which we cal papistical as here you would beare your reader in hand For euen in these parts and within the compasse of these times haue bene you know Wickliffe Hus and Luther vniuersities kingdomes good store haue had both your religion Church in defiance long before you wrote He that readeth but the stories of Philip Lodovicke the last French kings of Henry the 4 5. of the 2. Fredericks the 1 2 Emperours and the Cronicles of king Iohn here in England and of 2 or 3 of his successours he shal easily perceiue that much within the compasse of time that you speake of both Empires and Kingdomes with their Emperours and Kings haue beene far from making that reckoning of your popish Church and religion that you here bragge of or else doubtlesse you must needs confesse that your Popes haue beene vnreasonable creatures that haue so cursed and banned these men as they haue and which besides haue caused such infinite Christian bloud to be by warre shed to hamper them These things considered euen children may see not onely the vanity but grosse falshood of these your wordes For howsoeuer either here or else where in this your booke you would cause your reader to beleeue that your Romish Church is the catholicke Church of Christ euery one indeed may see that in trueth it is but a particuler and a petty Diocesse in comparison of the catholicke Church of Christ For the reader must vnderstand that the Church of Christ is called catholicke first because the religion that shee imbraceth is that which hath beene at al times will be to the end the true religiō of God secondly because the same Church in respect of the mēbers therof especially since the calling of the Gentiles is not to be limited or shut vp within the compasse of any particuler countries but may vniuersally be dispersed amongst all nations and in al countreyes where it pleaseth the Lord. In neither of which sences can the Romish Church be truly accounted catholick For neither is her doctrine that which the true Church of Christ embraced was in possessiō of for 4000 years more neither are the
And so doeth Tertullian de resurrectione carnis Cap. 3. saying Auferantur ab haereticis quae cum aethnicis sapiunt vt de scripturis solis suas quaestiones fistant stare non possunt that is let those things be taken from heretiques which they holde with the heathen that onely by the scriptures they may determine their questions and they cannot stand And nothing was more vsuall and familier with Augustine against the heretiques of his time then to call them for the triall of the question both whither he or they were of the true Church also whither of them had the trueth to this way of triall by the scriptures And therefore de vnitate ecclesiae Nolo humanis documentis sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrare I will not make demonstration of the Church by the writings of men but by the diuine oracles saieth he Cap 3. again there also he further addeth pressing the heretiques with whom hee had there to doe sunt libri dominici quoruÌ„ authoritati vtrique consentimus ibi quaeramus ecclesiam ibi discutiamus causaÌ„ nostraÌ„ that is there are certaine bookes of the Lord vnto the authority whereof we both consent there let vs seeke the Church there let vs discusse our cause To the like effect he writeth in the 2 Chapter of that booke and elswhere very often Vnles therfore they wil once bee contented to come to this trial of the controuersies betwixt theÌ„ vs we must needs tel theÌ„ that they are not desirous in earnest euer to haue it appeare which of vs haue the better cause but as men who know in their owne coÌ„science that their cause is bad they labour to maintaine the credit thereof as long as they can by cunning shifts delaies But yet let them assure themselues as long as they shun this trial how cuÌ„ningly colourably soeuer though simple fooles already besotted with superstition bewitched with popish enchantments vpon their bare worde stought bragges that it is nothing but the ancient catholicke faith that they teach may sometimes beleeue theÌ„ that yet withal those that haue any wisdoÌ„ at al by this means they leese quite both the credit of theÌ„selues their cause For faith being as it is not a wauering vncertaine conceyt opinioÌ„ of the thing beleeued but a most certain sure infallible perswasion of the trueth thereof how can any be assured that the doctrine that he beleeues is such as he may soundly firmely rest vpon for vndoubted trueth without euident grouÌ„d thereof out of the writeÌ„ word of the Lord in the canonical scriptures For theÌ„ce onely Peter dare warraÌ„t the sincere milke which caÌ„not deceiue the childreÌ„ of god to be fetched 1. Pet. 2 2. therefore that he would haue theÌ„ to desire as new borne babes doe milk that they may grow vp therby And as for the writings traditioÌ„s of meÌ„ beside hath not doth not experieÌ„ce daily teach that they may not nor caÌ„not chalenge the preeminence prerogatiue alwaies to be free from errour And euery one that is a ChristiaÌ„ hath learned that this prerogatiue al the writers of the canonical scripture had in the writing thereof therein not to haue erred at al. Who therfore caÌ„ be so simple vnles the Lord in his iustice hath blinded him because hee would not see the trueth shyning about him that he should receiue that for the sound catholicke faith that he heares not first froÌ„ point to point proued vnto him so to bee out of this vndoubted certaine word of God the canonical scriptures what shew or colour of proofe soeuer otherwise be made thereof And this Iohn de Albine could not but conceiue yet neuer once going about in this his discourse thus to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce his cause religioÌ„ but as one loth to be brought to this trial he laboureth most earnestly to discourage al meÌ„ froÌ„ appealing vnto it yet almost in euery leafe braggeth and boasteth that both his Church his doctrine and al are souÌ„d catholick Wherin howsoeuer he pleased himselfe in that his vaine any indiffereÌ„t maÌ„ may see he hath rather bewraied the weaknes of his owne cause theÌ„ any way whatsoeuer he haue saied otherwise impaired the credit of ours But how vainly hee hath swet euen to the tyring of himselfe his reader about this point in many chapters That by the scriptures controuersies are not in the church to be tried determined wheÌ„ I come vnto that place I shal god willing shew more fully In the meane time Iohn de Albine to turne my speech to you I hauing thus examined your answere to our demand how you come to your prelacies and offices and hauing found the weaknes and vntruethes thereof such as that your calling or coÌ„ming thereunto can claime no more credit thereby theÌ„ the calling coÌ„ming to their offices amongst the ArriaÌ„s Greekes whoÌ„ you count heretiques and scismatiques caÌ„ doe because they caÌ„ could say as much and that as truly for theirs as you haue here said for yours let vs now proceed to the examinatioÌ„ of the places of scripture in this Chapter quoted by you vrged as you thought stroÌ„gly to your purpose By the Mat. 5. Ye are the light of the world c. by christ spokeÌ„ properly to his Apostles you would seem to proue that therfore right successioÌ„ of Bishops pastors in the Apostolique truth in al ages in diuers partes of the world hath ben euer cleare shining like a light set on a table by that Eph. 4. Esa 62. with your book quoteth Sap. 61. very wisely you would infer that not oÌ„ly alwaies vntil Christs body coÌ„e to ful perfectioÌ„ there should be doctors pastors in the Church to teach the truth which is the most that by those places caÌ„ be proued but also that they and their coÌ„gregatioÌ„s haue euer ben known visible therby doubtles meaning so visible as the rest of your side doe wheÌ„ to this end they alleage these or the like places as that froÌ„ time to time in al ages meÌ„ may be able to naÌ„e theÌ„ and their places WheruÌ„to I answere that you stretch these places and the words therin further theÌ„ their natiue sence wil bear For the first of these is properly to be vnderstood of Christs Apostles onely who in respect of their ministery other graces of the spirit that should be powred bestowed vpoÌ„ theÌ„ to beutifie streÌ„gtheÌ„ their extraordinary ministery withall are there by Christ compâ—â—â—â—â— the light of the world to a lighted candle set vpon a candlesticke not put vnder a bushell lightning all in the house and to a city 〈◊〉 on a hil which could not bee bid all which afterward they in the â—â—ecution of their Apostleship and holy conuersation proued to be â—â—â—tles truely and iustly giuen them This was no prophesie as yoâ— would make it that their should be vntill the second comming 〈◊〉 Christ a visible and
polluted prophaned Vriah the priest ioyned with the king in the erection of a new altar in coÌ„mitting abhominatioÌ„ before the Lord though he were one that had his calling by the ordinary way of succession of priests froÌ„ AaroÌ„ Againe though Ezechiah succeeding Ahaz for his time did notably rid the Church of the abhominatioÌ„s wherw t his father had defiled it yet wheÌ„ he was dead his son Manasses his son Amon brought it to as il an estate as euer it was in so much that froÌ„ the beginning of Manasses raign vnto the 18 of Iosiahs the booke of the law of the Lord was lost which was wel nigh 80 years for theÌ„ it is noted that Hilkiâ—h the priest found it 2. King 22. In Manasses his time it is euideÌ„t Idolatry opeÌ„ly preuailed the whole Synagogue saue a few prophets their folowers erred If we proceed during the 70 years captiuity in Babylon what visible appareÌ„t shew of any successioÌ„ of Bishops pastors caÌ„ we finde the ioined togither in the exercise of Gods religioÌ„ Was not their teÌ„ple then destroied consequently did not the publick exercise of their religioÌ„ which for the most part was tied theruÌ„to cease as it was prophesied by Hosea Ca. 3. therfore lameÌ„ted by Ieremy Ca. 3. LaÌ„ WheÌ„ Christ our sauiour caÌ„e into the world surely then God had his Church For it is a most certaine article of our faith that since it begaÌ„ it hath neuer ceased nor neuer shal yet what visible succession of pastors and priests was there theÌ„ in possession of souÌ„o religioÌ„ Had not they as euideÌ„tly appeareth by the stories writeÌ„ by the EuaÌ„gelists that were in the visible personal succession corrupted the doctrine of the Messias both concerning his person and office so that they were the deadliest enemies that he had But you wil say perhaps that though these thinges were thus in the Church in the time of the olde Testament yet it may not be so in the Church now in the time of the new And why so Howsoeuer otherwise there be some differeÌ„ce betwixt the Church then and now in respect of the more cleare reuelation now then then of the doctrine of the Messias whereof that Heb. 8.6 is by soÌ„e vnderstood yet in this respect you shal neuer be able by the word writeÌ„ or any true story to proue any necessary difference vnles it be that God had tied then his promises to that peculier people his seruice in great part to their temple and that he had ordained amoÌ„gst them a priesthood to continue by natural succession so that the Church theÌ„ had more right to plead visible succession then now In the meane time thus much is gained by these stories of the Church in the time of the olde testament that this outward clearenes visible succession you talke of is not an inseparable note of the true Church for therby we haue seene it seperated ofteÌ„times from it And vnles men were peeuishly disposed to maintaine a manifest vntruth conuicted so to be both by Scripture and experieÌ„ce you would see grauÌ„t that it is as separable from the Church now since Christ For is it not plainely prophesied 2. Thess 2. that there should come a departing from the faith by the comming of Antichrist and that very great and effectual And least you should babishly foolishly as many of you doe vnderstand this of an Antichrist that towards the end of the world should come and raigne seduce men 3 yeares an halfe marke that here Paul telleth vs in his time that this mistery of iniquity did already worke which it did in that there were false Apostles there that taught men to seeke iustification partly by faith partly by the workes of the law as it appeareth by the Epistle to the GalathiaÌ„s weigh that he attributeth vnto him such things as could not be brought to passe in that space lastly consider that he teacheth that though he should be detected and fal into a consuÌ„ptioÌ„ by the Spirit of Gods mouth yet he should not be fully abolished before Christs second comming All which make it most euident that Paul here prophecieth of a longer lasting Antichristianity which should trouble the Church theÌ„ yours of 3 years an halfe continuaÌ„ce But least yet this notwitstaÌ„ding you should imagine that the fulfilling of this prophecy your faÌ„sie of perpetual clearnes vniuersality of the church may staÌ„d alwaies togither S. Iohn in his ReuelatioÌ„ describing as you al must coÌ„fesse the state of the Church seeth her in a vision by the great 7 headed DragoÌ„ driuen into the wildernes and there glad to be fed for a season Chap. 12. And he seeth the Babilonish harlot the true patterne of your Romish prelacy by which harlot he most notably setteth forth Antichrist his kingdome committing fornication not with a fewe but with the Kings and inhabitants of the earth not ruling or sitting ouer a few but as the Angel there expoundeth the waters whereon she was seene to sit people multitudes natioÌ„s toÌ„gues Apoc. 17 Al which laied togither doe plainly shew that after Christ there should grow such a defection froÌ„ the fayth in the world by the means of Antichrist that during the florishing of his kingdome the true Church and her pastours should be driuen into the wildernes and so for that time should haue in comparison of Antichrists followers small visibility and shew in the eies of the world Which we say and constantly are able to defend hath beene verified in the late florishing of your Romish Prelats Besides view the stories of the church the Cronicles of times and you shal be driuen to confesse that though the Church hath had alwaies her two witnesses Re. 11 to testifie to the trueth that they neuer could be extinguished quite by TyraÌ„ts yet she hath often beene driuen from carying any great shewe of visibility in the world For certaine marble pillers at Salmantike erected in the hill of S. Bartholomew doe witnes that Diocletian Iouius and Maximinianus Herculeus imagined when they caused them to bee erected that they then had quite layed the honour of Christ for euer in the dust and as it should seeme by the circumscriptions that they thereupon caused to bee engraued they set theÌ„ vp euen of purpose to brag that they had like great conquerers quite extinguished as they terme it the superstitioÌ„ of Christ Which they would neuer haue done if either they or their fauorites had then seene a visible succession of Bishops and pastours amongst them and had knowen their names and where to haue found them If wee go on to the time that the Arrians most florished wee shall read that the Emperour Constantius sayed to Liberius Quota pars es tu orbis terrarum qui solus facis cum homine scelerato meaning Athanasius Ecclesiast Hist Theodoreti lib. 2. cap 16. whereby it appeareth that then the
Catholique faith Catholique Bishops succeeding one another When as indeede and trueth it is as impossible for you to proue that you haue any iust right to anie of these as it was for those heretiques But howsoeuer you make some beleeue you haue all these yet I say vnto you with Saint August De vnitate Ecclesiae against the Epistle of Petilian chap. 10. That euen Catholique Bishops are not to bee consented vnto if that anie where they be deceiued in thinking anie thing contrarie to the Canonicall Scriptures And therefore when all commeth to all and when otherwise you haue runne your selues out of breath in conclusion will you will you by these Canonicall Scriptures must it bee determined whither you haue anie right to anie of these or no. For if you appeale from them as indeede you doe to the Church and fathers they will sende you backe againe for the triall whither that which they speake bee true or no onelie to the Scriptures as it maie appeare vnto you not onelie by this one place which I haue cyted out of Augustine alreadie but also by a number such like places both to bee founde in him else where and also in others For you maie reade in the first booke and seuenth Chapter of Theodoret that when Constantine sawe great controuersies in the Church in the Nicene councell and perceaued that euerie seuerall companie bragged of the trueth and so also of the Church and fathers to bee on their side to ende all those controuersies he saied Ex diuinitus inspiratis oraculis quaeramus solutionem eorum quae proponuntur that is out of the oracles that are come by diuine inspiration thereby meaning the Canonicall Scriptures let vs seeke the determination of those thinges that are propounded and so they did And as Constantine the Emperour was of this minde so it appeareth that Athanasius was of the same For to Serap hee saieth Solum exsacris literis condiscas meaning that the holie Ghost is God sufficiunt enim documenta quae in illis reperias Thou maiest learne it onelie out of the holie Scriptures for the documents or lessons which thou maiest finde in them are sufficient And Origen vpon the 16. to the Romanes in his tenth booke agreeing herein with these saieth that onely by the holie Scriptures the difference of trueth from errour in the examination thereof is to bee discerned And yet more plainely the same Origen in his first Homilie vpon Ieremie writeth of necessitie wee must call for the testimonie of the Scriptures for our senses and declarations without them as witnesses haue no credit Well therefore saied Augustine de naturâ gratiâ cap. 61. Onelie to the holy Scriptures doe I owe my consent without refusall And therefore franckely hee telleth Hierome in his nineteenth Epistle that hee had learned to yeelde that honour onely to the Canonicall Scriptures to thinke that the authours thereof therein neuer erred Where he plainly sheweth vs by his example how we should reade his writings or the writings of any other father namely beleeuing that which they wrote no further then we see it by scripture confirmed or by probable argument not dissenting from the trueth And the like he teacheth yet more plainelie in his 111. 112. Epistles to Fortunatus and Paulinus in the proeme of the third booke of the Trinity Wherefore with the same Augustine I confidently say and write whither of Christ or of his Church or of any thing that appertaineth to our faith and life I will not say wee that are not to bee compared with him that saied though wee but as hee addeth though an Angell from Heauen shall preach any thing besides that yee haue receaued marke hee saieth not contrarie but besides in the legall and Euangelicall scriptures let him be accursed in his third booke against Petilian cap. 6. Yea your owne Vincentius in the very place quoted by you denyeth not but taketh it for graunted that the scriptures of themselues alone are sufficient for all things yea and more then sufficient Whereupon it is euident that Vincentius by the rule line and true sence of the Catholique Church that there he speaketh of vnderstandeth onely such a sence or line as agreeth best with the scriptures themselues and the right rules of the interpreting of them wherof more afterwards In the meane time howsoeuer Vincentius his meaning was Augustine an ancienter father more famous somewhat then he speaking of the rule of faith that alwaies in interpreting of the scriptures men must haue an eie vnto and be ruled by saith that it is euen that which is taught in plainer places of the scripture de doctrinâ Christia lib 3. cap. 2. de trini lib. 1. cap. 2. 4. Yea in the same Augustine de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 6. distrinc 37. c. Relatum we may reade noted out of ClemeÌ„t that the church is not to receaue any fence for the true seÌ„ce of the scriptures which caÌ„not be proued so to be out of the scriptures theÌ„selues And therefore all interpretation of scripture newe or ancient deliuered by the fathers in former time or receiued of their children of this later age must and ought according to this rule and line bee iudged catholique or not The IIII. Chapter Cant. 1. WHose discourse doeth make me remeÌ„ber the complaint that the soule doeth make vnto her Spouse Iesus Christ beeing both represented by Salomon and his legitimate spouse I pray thee saith she O my deare frend tell mee in what place thou doest lie and rest at noâ—â— daies for I would be very glad and desirous to follow the flockes of thy felowes The which is as much to say as if she meant thus I see many shepheardes in these mountaines which haue great abundance of sheepe I see those of the Roman Church I see Donatistes I see Nouatians or to speake of our time I see one flocke follow Luther another follow a The Caluenists Zuinglians and Sacramentaries are commonly amongst you taken for one yet here that the variety of opinions may seeme the greater you reckon them vp as three distinct sorts Zuinglius another follow Caluin another the Anabaptists another the SacrameÌ„taries so forth diuers others of whoÌ„ wheÌ„ I demauÌ„d particulerly Whose is this flocke they do al answer me It is of Christ euery 〈◊〉 saieth this is the catholicke Church euery one doeth say that he is his fellow that is to say as touching the guiding of his flocke Now it is not possible that they doe al teach the trueth considering how they varie among theÌ„selues therefore I doe desire thee to tell me where thou doest rest thy selfe at noone daies That is as much to say teach me which is the true Catholicke Church which doeth celebrate the true misterie of the Crosse which is the place where thou wast nailed at noone daies beeing nailed both handes and feete Heare now the answere of Iesus Christ If thou doest not know the place
wil he deny before his father in heauē And S. Paul doth saie Ro. 10. f And so haue ours all wayes in due time and place though to the losse of thousands of their liues done that with the hart one doth beleeue to iustice with the mouth one must cōfes to saluatiō g This is but your cuckowes song conteining neither trueth nor honesty But to saie the truth your religiō was not thē foūd out the Grādfathers great Grandfathers of Caluin had neuer dreāpt of the heresies that now their reformed childe hath set so newly abroach And therefore thinke it not strange if that those people that are not light headed send you to preach in new found landes as one that hath here at home giuen manifestlie iudgement against himselfe h Are you not ashamed to ly so impudently and to reason so foolishly confessing as wee haue alleadged aboue that the Church of God hath vsed the imposition of hands yours hath not done so and therefore it doeth follow that it is not of God that that doeth follow consequentlie is that it is of the deuil For we know that you allow i Neither would you but that your belly is your God and that you mind earthly things vnto which purposes that doctrine serueth you fitly no purgatorie I mean no meane betwene thē both The XIIII Chapter HOw you haue answered Caluin and proued your vocation to be of God by that which now the reader hath heard both parts say let him iudge Our answere to the like demande I haue giuē you Chap. 9. when you first called for it But hauing demanded this now againe of vs insteed of pursuing your demād as one that had streight forgotten what you saied you are in hand againe with our saying to your charge your popes bishops il liues with twise or thrise you were in hād wtal before where you haue your ful answer Herein you say in railing you giue vs the preeminēce but you do so but in words for indeed trueth as al your late books fraught with nothing more then this kinde of Rhetoricke to bring the seruants of God vniustly into hatred doe proue none cā go beyond you herein And as for that which we say of your Popes bishops your own storie-writers and manifest experience doe iustifie to be true therfore cānot iustly be coūted railing But you find fault with vs that hauing writē the lewd liues of your bishops Popes on the one side of the leafe we set not down on the other side in the meane time the succession of those good ones that we had This law you nether haue nor cā alwaies obserue your selfe For though you haue had many good Popes bishops yet a great while your good ones haue bene as hard to finde as cole-black swans And yet you please your selfe and your frends that take pleasure in your giving scoffing in asking vs when your Popes behaued thēselues il at Rome who were the holy doctors at Geneua whē your doctors preached against God vnder what signe our ministers lodged al this kind of Rhetorick of yours is groūded vpō a false principle namely that the Church and ministers thereof haue bene alwaies must be so visible as that in al times demonstration may be made thereof cōtrary to these often alleadged prophecies 2. Thess 2. Reu. 12. 17. And the thing that deceiueth you nourisheth in you this errour is that you expoūd the places of scripture which are vttered concerning the continuāce spiritual beauty of the church of the elect the true heauenly Hierusalē spouse of Christ as spokē of the cōtinuance of particuler Churches or of the outward order state of the Church militant onely and that you either wilfully or otherwise cannot distinguish betwixt the being and continuing of the Church and her pastors and the maner of their being and cōtinuing and so you construe those places that proue her being and their continuing as though therupō followed your maner of visible and apparent being also as though there were no being or continuing of the Church but in your maner Whereas in Israel in Ahabs time you haue heard both the Church and ministers therof ther continued in that euen in that kingdōe Obadiah had hid 100 prophets and God had reserued vnto himselfe 7000. that had not bowed their knees to Baal yet not in your maner For Eliah was not able to make such demonstration thereof who they were and where they were as you require of vs for he thought himselfe alone 1. King 18. 19. O but you very like a diuine proue out of Mat. 10. Ro. 10. because Christ hath saied him that denieth me before mē wil I deny before my heauenly father and Paul requireth aswel confession with the mouth to saluation as beleife with the hart to iustification that therefore they could not be faithful beleeuers because they did hide themselues As though euery one were a denier of Christ that hideth himselfe frō the fury of the persecutour Or as though none confesse with their mouth to saluation that so hide themselues What think you then of the 100 prophetes before named And of Eliah himselfe who as it appeareth in those places hid themselues from Ahab and Iesebels furie Haue you forgotten that the same Christ saieth in the same Chap to his Apostles If they persecute you in one City flie to another And that the same Paul himselfe did sundry times by hiding himselfe from the hands of his persecutours saue his life As you may read Act. 17. and elswhere Who though he were assured in a vision by reuelation from God that with safety of life hee should come to testifie of Christ and his Gospel at Rome yet refused not al good and lawful means to haue himselfe conueied away and so to escape the hands of his bloudy persecutors the Iewes which had solemnly boūd thēselues with an oath that they would neither eat nor drinke til they had killed him Act. 23.11.12 Your diuinity is not so simple I thinke but that you vnderstand that as long as a Christian carieth that minde and purpose that wheresoeuer he is he will be ready boldly to yeeld a sound confession of his faith and therefore when he is called thereunto and iustly occasioned is ready to perfourme that purpose of his and doeth it indeed that man cannot bee saied to deny Christ or not to confesse him with his mouth though by flying and hiding himselfe as long as he may lawfully he seeke to keepe himselfe for the further good of Gods Church out of the handes of his persecutours And therefore you were much to blame by thus wresting of these places of Scriptures to seeke to abuse your Reader But our Religion you say was not found out then and Caluins great grandfather had not once dreamed of his Religion and therefore no maruell though they could not be found that were the
their doctrine was not new for whē they begā to preach vnto the gentils Idolaters i For the 9. they did not at the first preach Iesus Christ but they did seeke to blot out of the minds of the simple people the foolish opinion that they had in the multitude of Gods to teach them that there was but one God who had created the heauē earth who sendeth raine in time of neede all things els that are required for the sustenāce of mā k This he preacht but this was not al therefore he preaching somewhat that was new both to Iewe and Gentile namely that Iesus was the Christ therefore in that respect he his fellows had need to confirme their doctrine by signes and wonders This is the doctrin that S. Paul did preach as we read in the * Act. 14. Acts. This doctrine was not new amōg men although it were so that they were Painims l And therefore you bestow much needelesse cost to proue this point no new doctrine touching the vnity of the Godheade and the verity thereof for not onlie in Moses lawe nor in the law of Grace but euen by the lawe of Nature God hath beene knowen euen of those which were not of the familie of Abraham Isaac Iacob vnto whom the promise of the incarnation of Christ was made Of this doeth Abimilech the King of Gerar beare witnesse who did excuse himselfe before God for the wife of Abraham hee could neuer haue knowen how to talke thus with God if he had not knowen him * Gen. 20. Besides this he made Abraham to swear by the inuocatiō of the saied God that neither he nor his heires should suffer anie dammage by his posterity * Gen. 24. Bathuel did likewise know God whē he cōfessed that he was the authour of the mariage of his daughter with Abrahams son euen so Abimilech the king of the Palestines Phicol Ochosath saied vnto Isaac We heare that God is with thee therfore we are come to make alliance togither * m Judg. 2. Adonibezeth although he were a Gentile did not he confesse one God m Iudg. the first you would say when he saied that he had giuen him the selfesame punishment that he had giuen the .70 kings Iob al his frends although they were Gentiles haue auouched one God to be the Creatour of heauē earth euen aswell as the Israelites as it doeth appeare by the discourse of the said Iob. If we read the histories of the Paynims we shal finde that they beare witnes of one God among themselues Diogenes Laertius ◠the liues of the Philosophers doeth write that the Emperour Adrian did demaunde of a Philosopher celled Secundus what God was He answered God is an immortall spirit incomprehensible containing al the world a light and a soueraigne goodnes True it is that this Secundus was bolder to speake of God then another Philosopher called Simonides of whom Tullie doeth write in his first booke De naturâ deorum vnto whom when the tyrant Hiero did demaunde of him what God was that he had giuen him diuers daies of respuit to answer him at the last he saied that he did acknowledge in him an infinite of al things Cicero himselfe in the first question of his Tusculanes doeth gouerne giue the being to all things And in diuers places of that worke he doeth wel expresse that he knew wel that there was one God and that the Gods that the Gentiles did worship were but mortall men And in the saied booke he saieth that we know God by his works in the which hee doeth not much differ from Dauid saying * Psal 18. That the heauens declare the glory of God and the firmament doeth anounce his workes And in the 40. Chapter of Esay when God did talke with the Gentiles he did cal his works to beare witnes of his greatnes Lift vp your eies saieth he and beholde who hath made this And the * Sap. 13 Sage doeth say that men through their vanity haue not knowen God by his works And * Rom. 1. Saint Paul doeth absolutely condemne them saying that they can procure no excuse of ignorance for the inuisible things such as is the diuinitie of God maie be knowen by the visible thinges And therefore they are vnexcusable hauing hidden the trueth of God to vniustice for after that they haue knowen him they haue not giuen him that thankes and honour that they should haue done but they haue beene deceiued through their owne subtilitie making a profession of knowledge they haue beene founde foolish and ignoraunt S. Augustine 8. lib. de Ciu. dei cap. 24. doeth reckon Mercurius called Hermes Trimegistus among these forasmuch as he did continue in his owne errour although he knewe by that that one maie see in his owne writinges that his auncetours did err greatlie in the making and worshipping of so manie Gods The XVIII Chapter INdeede euen as you suppose in this case we further aunswere you as the Iewes were answered by Christ telling you that you are an adulterous and peruerse generation in thus demaunding signes to confirme a doctrine already of ancient time sufficiently confirmed But this answere you say cannot be iustly made to you because neither we are faithful messengers from God as Christ was nor you so hard harted as these Iewes were Trueth it is we dare not compare in faithfulnes with Christ for such comparison were odious but with S. Paul we protest that in seruing the God of our fathers according to that Religion which you count heresie beleeuing all that is writen in the law the Prophets we haue alwaies endeuoured to keepe a good conscience both before God and mā Act. 24. and as for you we see no cause to the contrary but that you may both for malice against the trueth and hard hartednes be compared with the Iewes For though we worke no miracles and they then had seene Christ to worke many yet our doctrine beeing the same that he taught and no other as we are alwaies ready and willing to proue it to be by the scriptures it hath beene confirmed not only by all the miracles that then Christ had wrought but also by all them that since were wrought by him or his Apostles to confirme the same and therefore you yet refusing to beleeue it shew as great hardnes of hart as they did rather more Indeed if we took vpon vs either any callings not warrāted by the Lord in his word or to preach any doctrine which we could not warrant by the canonicall scriptures you might with some reason call for some miracles of vs but seeing you cā proue neither of these against vs you may with more reason giue ouer this obiection then to pursue it any further Indeede we are not ashamed to confesse that these are two principall reasons which are here remēbred by you wherby we proue
being on your side but in that they were of ours as they were and as I haue saied wee christianly perswade our selues that their soules are in heauen And you fearing belike for all your cauilling that touching these ancient doctours confessours and martyrs that this would be our answere because you knew it might iustly be so you were content quickely to giue ouer the pursuit of this question and to aske vs this what wee thinke in our conscience of those that maintained cōfessed your faith Religion whither they be condemned or no And to feare vs from saying they be vpon the necke of this you aske vs if it were so why then was the bloud of Christ shed affirming confidently that if this were so that then it had beene better that Christ had neuer suffered This indeede I doe know to be one of your common bugges whereby you seeke to make the simple affraide either to forsake you or to ioyne with vs saying when you see men about thus to doe what will you condemne all your forefathers And to this end with manie words you āplifie the goodnes of the forefathers what an vnchristian cruelty it is to cōdemne all our ancient forefathers Before I come to the answering of which obiection I cannot but tell you that in setting downe so bluntly boldly as you haue that if they that confessed and maintained your Religion be condemned that then it had beene better that Christ neuer had died you haue vttered grosse intollerable blasphemy For though none such should be saued by the death of Christ thousand thousands both haue bene and shal be saued therby better it were that al such as you meane should for euer be condemned then that this speech of yours had any trueth in it But to answer this your obiection taken frō the dangerousnes of condēning forefathers because by the nāe of thē you keep men as you doe in your Romish and Babilonical captiuity first the reader is to vnderstand that an argument takē frō forefathers simply without distinction but as you doe this of yours in matters of Religion is not good For Ez. 20. we read that the Lord saied thus vnto his people walke not in the preceps of your fathers neither obserue their maners nor defile your selues with their idols And Dauid saieth Ps 78. Let thē not be as their forefathers were a disobediēt rebellious generatiō c. And the like warning the people had Psal 95. Zach. 1. Ier. 11. Whereupō Peter telleth the Christians to whom he wrote that by the bloud of Christ they were redeemed frō the vaine cōuersation of their fathers 1. Pet. 1. If this argument had beene good when Christ came sent his Apostles abroad to preach the gospell to al natiōs our forefathers in all natiōs then did ill in receiuing the doctrine of the gospell For their forefathers for some 1000. yeares before had held professed mainteined heathenish paganisme And it seemeth that many of the heathē then vsed this very argument of yours to keepe men in paganisme still For such an obiectiō I read both made by thē answered by Peter as it is writē Clemētis lib. 5. recognitionū by Ignatius ad Philadelphēses by Augustin in quaest veteris noui testamēti quaest 114. By this reason saied Peter as Clemēt reports it If a mans father be a thiefe or a bawde the child must be no other To such as saied they would beleeue no other gospell thē they foūd their forefathers had Ignatius answereth my antiquity is Iesus Christ whō not to obey is manifest damnation That which was before saieth Augustine the Paganes say cānot be bad To whom he answereth saying as though antiquity may preiudice trueth For thus might murderers wantons adulterers other lewd liuers defend their wickednesses because they are old haue beene frō the beginning saieth he So that both scripture reasō the ancient fathers themselues teach vs that it is not alwaies safe to cōtinue in the Religion wherein our forefathers liued died and so easily we may perceiue that this your argument how cōmon soeuer it be with you is of no force For it hath beene the old argument of Pagans doubtles is at this day the chiefe argument that keepeth Turks Jewes from yeelding to the Gospell least then they should condemne all their forefathers But as your argument is naught so your antecedent is false also For albeit that our Religion differ from yours as it doeth yet farre is it from vs that therefore we condemne all our forefathers For first we know that frō Christ wel near 1000. yeares they thē that professed Christ for the most part liued died holding the foūdatiō many other principall points of religiō with vs therfore of their saluatiō we doubt not Secondly euer since howsoeuer a nūmber fell away frō the trueth seemed wholy to be yours yet we are perswaded we know it to be true especially since Petrus Vald his time who was 400. yeares ago there haue beene great knowen multitudes openly ioyning with vs in the chiefest points of our religion dissenting frō you as I haue shewed before And when there seemed to be fewest yet we beleeue that that God that could did preserue vnto himself in the litle kingdom of Israel in such a miserable time asking Ahabs time was 7000. that there had not bowed their knees to Baal that the God I say euē whē popery seemed to haue preuailed most according to the comfortable visions that Iohn had to that end Apoc. 7. 14 yet had preserued vnto him in al the kingdomes and prouinces of the world infinite numbers that yet neither in forehead nor hand would beare the marke of the beast of all these we hope well also Thirdly euen concerning such of our forefathers as seemed to the world to be of your religiō we thinke a number also are saued For euen amongst them there are .3 sortes to be cōsidered The first sort are they that liued and died in all your grosse and erronious opiniōs The second are they that though a long time they seemed to liue in them yet ere they died God caused to see the vanity thereof at least cōcerning your doctrine of iustificatiō so through the sight of their sins in his mercy he brought them to die protesting that they trusted not to be saued in part nor in whole by their owne works or by any other meanes but onely by his free mercy through Iesus Christ alone The third sort is of them which though they were yours for some outward ceremonies that they were contented to vse with you in that they held some other fond opinions with you yet neuer ioined with you indeed in seeking for saluation little or much by any thing that you taught them to put their trust in that way but only looked for beleeued to attaine vnto it for that which Christ
now honour them it was no errour at al in him and if it had beene that he had held but so I am fully persuaded that rather Hierom would haue commended him for it then otherwise But indeed your grosse honouring of them was not then so much as thought of Vigilantius his fault as it seemeth by Hieroms charging of him was that hee woulde not allowe that there should such cost be bestowed vpon their tombes and burials or that any such estimation or reuerend regard should bee had of their graues and sepulchers as then of loue towardes them and to stirre vp others to imitate them beganne to be vsed Wherein if he went too far wee ioine not with him For wee very well allow that there should be a decent and comelie buriall of them and we esteeme of their graues and other certaine monumentes of them as of thinges that appertaine to the deare children of God But with you to tie vertue either to the place of their buriall or to any such thing that they left behinde and that in such grosse maner as you haue done wee account it both folly and blasphemous impiety It may bee when you named Arrians you meant Aerians in whom you oft tell vs that to pray for the dead was condemned for an heresie But if that were your meaning wee tell you that Epiphanius writing of them saieth flatlie howsoeuer they were so accounted of some that praier for the dead hath no manifest ground in the Scriptures but rather leaned to the fashion and traditions of men as both of this and almost of all the pointes in controuersie betwixt you and vs Soto cōtra Brentium Lind. li. 4. suae panopliae towards the end thereof two great champions of your side haue also plainely confessed and so long you shall neuer be able to proue it an heresie Againe here you must be admonished that euery thing that an heretique is reported to haue held is not by by heresie For many sound opinions often times such haue retained and by that meanes haue the easilier preuailed to seduce men by their errours And therefore you and your fellowes also doe your readers wrong in making thē to thinke that because such an hereticke such an hereticke held this and that which we hold therfore we are heretickes For if you should speake to the purpose you should first proue the opinions that wee hold to be heresies and thē shew vs that they were held and cōdēned in such and such or at the least that the things that we hold were in them heretofore condemned for heresies But to be briefe you say if our Religion be the trueth thē there hath beene neuer a Christiā Doctour in the Church since Christ for all haue taught the contrary c. These are but your words and the falshood of this I haue made to appeare in sundry points already And I would to god the poor simple people could read their works indeede for then howsoeuer it please you here to brag to the contrary they should and would perceiue that you haue in this wounderfullie abused them For they should see that for the most and greatest questions betwixt you and vs they are flat on our side in those things wherein they seeme most to fauour you that yet euen therein there was and is very great difference betwixt you and them Wherfore your vehement exhortation that men should not follow vs to condemne all Christians that haue beene since Christ which taught alwaies yours condēned ours as heresy is sutable to the foūdation that is nothing but false vaine In like maner where you bring vs here as men to auoide your argument of the condemnation of forefathers that are so driuen to our shifts that we haue nothing to say for appeasing the people but this that their errours shall not bee imputed vnto them for that they did holde them of simple ignorāce hauing no better instruction in confuting this excuse you might haue spared your paines For you may remember that otherwise I haue blunted the edge of that argument And for my part I most willingly acknowledge that ignorance shall not nor cannot exēpt any from condemnation that know not if they be of yeares and otherwise capable of knowledge the Lord Iesus Christ aright to their saluation For I know it is writen that Christ shall come in flaming fire rendering vengeance vnto them that know not God and which obey not the gospell of Iesus Christ 2. Thes 1. and that howsoeuer by strong delusion vnder Antichrist mē shall be carried to beleeue lies yet in the iust iudgement of God because they receaued not the loue of the trueth they shal be damned for not beleeuing the trueth 2. Thess 2. But you say some haue vsed that excuse of them in conference with your selfe I warrant you not simply to excuse such as liued and died in an Antichristian faith that is looking to be saued not onely through the mercie of God in Christ Iesus but by other meanes also which can not stand together with a sound faith in Christ but such onely as either amongst the fathers were preserued from euer falling into this foūdamental errour or hauing fallen into it had growen to detest it to imbrace a faith seeking and finding in Christ alone the full cause of their saluation ere they died of which two sortes besides those whom God did cleane preserue from the infection of popery as hee did the 7000. in Elias his time from the idolatry of Baal euen in the greatest florish of poperie the Lord no doubt of it had infinite numbers For I my selfe in my daies haue knowen diuers in whom the leauen of popery hath beene so rooted that notwithstanding neuer so good meanes haue beene vsed in their health and prosperity to reforme them yet they haue perseuered in an opinion that they should either not be saued or that partly they should be saued for their own merits who yet in time of sickenes or some other misery hauing therby beene brought as it were before Gods presence and so to see the infinitenes of his iustice haue straight renounced all confidence in their owne works with wōderful detestation of their owne blasphemous and foolish conceit that euer they trusted in them or in any thing but onely in Christ Iesus who now when they knew them selues they would confesse was he that alone must saue them by that which he had done himselfe or else it would neuer be And if the Lord thus mercifully reclaimed some that wilfully and peeuishly a long time had resisted the trueth shining as it doeth now why should wee not much more conceiue that hee shewed that mercy vpon a number of our forefathers who dwelt in that errour of simplicity and ignorāce That therein in a number of things else they erred not you say but you shal neuer be able to proue Neither can you vpon our holding that they did erre conclude that either
defy detest theÌ„ their frantick opinions as much as any and of all men we haue beene the forwardest in writing against them And therefore they doe vs the more wrong when at any time they aggrauate this obiection against vs by charging vs to haue such amongst vs whom thus we shunne and mislike aswell as they Thus much therfore let suffice for answere to this fourth signe and now let vs proceede to the next The next is not to obey but resist the Prelates of the Church which hee would proue so to bee by Pauls saying 2. Tim. 3. like as Iannes and â—ambres resisted Moses so doe these resist the trueth being men of corrupt mindes reprobates in faith of which fault when the learned protestant can proue them guilty and vs cleare he promiseth to recant It seemeth the man in alleadging this text did trust his memory too much for twise he hath writen MaÌ„bres for IaÌ„bres but if that were all his fault here it were a small matter But here againe according to his old woont he must haue it freely giueÌ„ and granted him for he bringeth nothing at all to proue it that their Bishops and Prelates are all such as Moses Paul was that is faithfull in teaching only Gods people the truth For vnles this be yeelded him it neither may be granted him that he rightly applieth his text nor this signe against vs. But he knoweth well enough and so doe all the packe of theÌ„ that we are so far from being so prodigall in our gifts vnto them that we hold their prelates bishops Priests to be very IaÌ„nes Iambres in resisting our Bishops and ministers in teaching the same truth that they haue learned of Moses Paul and that therefore we thinke no better of them then of men of corrupt mindes reprobate in the faith For which cause we are sure we both may and ought to disobey them and resist them as we doe For so we finde that Esay Hieremy Amos Michaiah Christ and his Apostles in their times refused to obey and resisted the false doctrine of the false Prophets and high Priests that theÌ„ were What a vanity is it therefore in this man to trouble his reader with such colde and poore stuffe as this is And truely hee hath no better happe in the last then in any of the former For setting it downe that ficklenesse and slipperinesse of errours and heresies is a signe and sure token to bewray the authors thereof and that the catholique faith or trueth is likewise to be knowen by the constant stability thereof he saieth that which we grant to be very true as willingly as he or any of his side Insomuch that coÌ„monly it is one of the principall reasons that we vse to proue their opinions that we striue against them for to be errours or heresies theÌ„selues for now holding them so obstinatly as they doe heretiques for that we are able to shew how by stealing and soft paces stily they began first to creepe in and so went on froÌ„ worse to worse vntill to vse his owne tearme they came ad prosuÌ„dum maloruÌ„ that is euen to the depth of all euill that they are now growen vnto therein Who so readeth my answere to Albines publishers preface and the 37. Chapter of my answere to Albine himselfe shall finde that in a good sort of their opinions I haue shewed this But to proue this that it is the property of heretiques to be fickle and mouing and so soone to perish passe away he alleadgeth S. Peter saying that lying masters doe bring vpoÌ„ theÌ„selues swift daÌ„nation their destruction sleepeth not which he spake of gods iudgements yâ— vndoubtedly should ouertake such meÌ„ not as he vnderstandeth him to shew that their opinions alwaies should soone passe away and vanish In the former sence it is alwaies fouÌ„d true that S. Peter writeth either here or els where or both but take it in the later sence then Peter shall often be found to haue prophecied of such vntruly For who knoweth not that the grosse errours of Turcism are of very long continuance that the errour of the Aethiopians for circumcision is far more ancients and that yet it continueth And must not of necessity the errours and heresies of Antichrist be of very long continuance seeing Paul as we haue heard confesseth that the mystery of that iniquity beganne to worken in his time aboue 1500. years ago and that it should not quite be abolished before Christs second comming who then should yet by the brightnesse of his comming abolish it 2. Thess 2 The trueth of whose prophecy in that place is the very true ground of the antiquity vniuersality and continuance of the popish and Antichristian Religion So that howsoeuer it hath fallen out in some heresies that they haue in Gods most wise prouidence euen quickely brought themselues to an ende by their ficklenes moouing yet it appeareth in that place the sinne of not beleeuing the trueth so notably taught and confirmed by Christ and his Apostles in the iust iudgement of God by Antichristianity is so seuerely to be punished that therewith euen from the Apostles daies to the ende of the worlde they that commit that sinne shall bee in danger to bee deluded and seduced most dangerously Which I say and sure I am I can proue it hath beene and yet is most notoriously verifyed by popery to the wonderfull hurt and destruction of soules Howbeit this man would faine apply this signe vnto vs for that amongst vs as it pleaseth him to write here in England for the loue we beare to the doctrine of the Zwinglians Oecolampadians and Caluinists the Lutherans haue takeÌ„ their iust ouerthrow and for that now here Precisians and Puritans as he saith through the affection of the common people and so winking at them by some magestrates haue brought the Zwinglians and Caluinists to be ready to yeeld vp the ghost and to tilt vp their heeles But these are but vaine words and proue not his purpose For all these howsoeuer in other matters of lesser moment they too much disagree yet as I haue saied before and as it is notoriously knowen for the principall articles of religion coÌ„cerning faith or maners they are in constant vnity holding the same all of them that they haue learned in these points out of the Canonical scriptures as the harmony of their confessions extant to the world in print make it euident As for the seuerall and priuate opinions of Luther and his too earnest followers which we now mislike we haue likewise alwaies misliked and therefore in that respect they haue no other ouerthrow amongst vs then they alwaies since we first heard of them haue had and howsoeuer in these points we rather prefer Zuinglius and Caluins iudgement then theirs yet certaine it is that we build not our faith of them nor of them or by them delight we to be called we protest and professe our selues
9. p. 322. Auricular confession coÌ„futed at large c 37. p. 322. c B. BAptisme and the ceremonies at large spoken of 308. c. Baptisme that is outward sometimes separate from regeneration 280. c. Baptisme bindeth not alwaies the baptised to be of his religion that baptised him p. 395. 410. Bad alwaies intermingled with good 404. Beza defended against Albines slanders 400 Bondage vnder poperie as great as Israels vnder Pharao 170. c. Bohemians doings coÌ„sidered and defended 291. c. C. CAluins argument against the popish priesthoode that it is not of God vnanswered by Albine p. 5. Ceremonies popish how and when many of them came in and how withstood C. p. 15. 16. Colliers faith what it is 222 Christ will bee a whole and sole Sauiour or else no Sauiour at all 419. Christs Church perpetuall but not alwaies visible in the popish sence 37. c. 122. 413. c. Church why called catholicke and so the popish church is not catholicke p. 360. Contentions and varieties of opinions amongst Christians no news they ought not to preiudice the trueth 68. 69. 250. Contentious popish many and great 70. 71. 97. 252. c. Corpus Christi day when and by whom it came in 161. Caiphas had not the spirit of prophesie as Albine would seem he had 94. 95 Crueltie of papists in seeking to preuaile to stand by force 155. c. 291. c. Cathechising in popery how bad it hath bene 179. c. Councels haue erred and that euen papists confesse 230. c. Communion vnder one kind is but a new deuise 159. Christ was to proue his calling by miracles and yet not we 188. c. 403. D. DEdicating of bookes to great persons hath good and ancient presidents A. p. 11. and 12. Departure from the Roman Church that now is lawfull 149. 394. 417. c. 409. c. E. EDucation bindeth not the party to bee alwaies of their religion that brought him vp 181. to be read but not so as to discourage the simple from the study of them 205. 208 c. Scriptures alleadged in their true sence the ground that protestants staÌ„d vpoÌ„ 205 c. Scriptures though neuer so much abused by heretiques yet by them they must be confuted 226. Scriptures must expound scriptures 47. 210. 224. Scriptures they which alleadge best they are to be followed 245 c. Scriptures must trie who hath the spirit of God 222 c. Scriptures are to bee studied and read of all men 209 c. Scriptures shamefully spoken of by papists the better to shun triall by them 82 c. 212 c. Scriptures fondely allâ—adged and applied by Papists 35 c. 218. Scriptures in some sence may well be vnderstoode according to the tradition of the Church 87. 393. Scriptures whither rightlier alleadged by protestants or papists examined 215. 216. c Scriptures are so alleaged by protestaÌ„ts that they therfore are to be beleeued and neither papist nor heretique 215 c. Scriptures are both iudge and witnes 262. Scriptures are the only souÌ„d touchstoÌ„e both of trueth church al. 33 c. 46 c. 244 406. Scriptures by Papists thought neuer to bee soundly interpreted but according to the present practise of the Roman Church 214. 219. Sinne is more strictely condemned by protestants then by papists 285. 404. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither Personall 25 c. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither Locall 25 c. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither not reall 21 c. 27 Succession Popish we reiect not so much for their bad liues as doctrine 92. 301. Succession neither locall nor personall anie certaine note of trueth 27 c. Succession in the trueth the onely succession indeede to be stood simply vpon 31 c. Supper of the Lord wonderfully peruerted of the Papists 31. 416. Supremacy of the Pope new how by whoÌ„ it came vp and by whom still resisted p. 11. c 161. c. T. Traditions beside the word writen countenanced by abusing of Irenaeus and others p. 1 2. 76 c. Traditions vnwriteÌ„ the ground of popery C. p. 5. p. 82. Traditions beside and contrary to the word writen reiected by the fathers C. 2. p. 46 78. c. 224. c. Traditions spoken for and allowed by the fathers alwaies warranted by the scriptures C. p. 2 3. Traditions vnwriten heretiques commonly flie vnto eueÌ„ as the papists doe p. 5 6 33. Transubstantiation wheÌ„ it came in and how confuted D. 7 8. p. 109. Tree that is good bringeth forth good fruit and in what sence that is to be taken 274 278. c. Trueth is to be preferred before custome all things else C. p. 7. 86. 100. 406. Trueth is not tied to bishops mouthes and chaires 28. 29. 94. 95. 151. c. Trueth is most ancient and that is it that came from the Apostles 102. Turkes and Iewes take occasion the more to be hardened for the popish doctrine of Images and transubstantiation 217. V. VIsible demonstrable succession is neither certaiâ—e note of Church not trueth 28 â—7 c. 51. Vnity and Christian peace may and ought to be kept in the Church though the rites be diuers 312. c. Vnity vnlesse it bee in verity men are not to continue in 417. c. Vnity in euery thing followeth not vpon right praying for the spirit 247. c. Vnity papists haue not though they bragge thereof neuer so much 70. 71. 97. 246. 252. Vnâ—uersalitie indeed the Romish Church hath not 388 c. Vocation ordinary hath not alwaies beene found in them that haue beene meanes of the conuersion of nations that haue profitably preached 30. 123. c. Vocation may be good and lawfull though the called haue faults 131. Vocation of what sort popish prelates haue 14 c. Vowes in popery foolish and superstitious 306. c. W. VVAnts and faultes of the Church to reforme men are not bound onely to vse praier 141. Way that is narrow both for life and religion is to bee preferred before the broad way 395. c. Workes that are good indeed rather founde with protestants theÌ„ with papists 280. c. 286. 404. FINIS Faults escaped in printing through the absence of the authour the hardnes and smalnes of the hand wherein the copy was offered to the presse and the vnacquaintance of the ouerseers with the same A. p. 1 l. 26 â— why for when 4. 16. before for vnto B. 1. 7 the for that l. 33. the for their 15. 16 for second 11. l. 20 when for whom l. 35 for the their C. 1. 12 pruning for prouing 7. 12 them for them l. 25 put in I say next therefore 12. 23 for first sixt 15. 11 put out of desposed the first s D. 2. 9 Paula for pacta and in Armonians e for o and in Moralia is for l. 6. 9. put in next them they doe 7. 1 that for the 9. 34