made If these Ministers had once deceiued you in a money matter you would beware how you trusted them againe and will you beleeue them still they hauing by their owne confession hitherto deceiued you both in your Church seruice Bible coÌ„mending the one to you as diuine seruice and the other as Gods pure word and now condemning them both Which words of his doe carry some colour to blinde the ignorant but he himselfe well knew that he did but play the Sicophant and made only a shew of great matter against vs wherein in truth there is no waight at all For wold the sorry fellow haue argued thus against the faith of the whole church that had been for the space almost of foure hundred yeeres when Hierome tooke in hand to translate the Bible anew and to reforme the defects and imperfections both of the Septuagint of other translations which the Church had vsed till that time It appeareth by Hierome that c Hier. ad Paulam Eustoch Praefat. in Esaiae translat Qui scit me ob hoc in peregrinae linguae eruditione sudasse ne Iudaei de falsitate scripturarum ecclesiis eâ—us diutiùs insultarent the Iewes insulted ouer the Christian Church for their false translations of the Scriptures for the auoiding whereof he protesteth it was that he tooke that paines to learne the Hebrew tongue that he might himselfe more perfectly translate them and so d Idem Praefat. in Iosue Dolere Iudaeosquòd calumniandi eis irridendi Christianos sit ablata occasio take from them all occasion to calumniate and mocke the Christians Will our Iudaizing Iesuite heereupon say of all the time before that there could be no goodnesse in their faith that it was built vpon an euill foundation that their Bibles were naught because there were so great defaults in their translations What had so many Churches beleeued in vaine so many Martyrs and Confessours suffered persecution and death for a faith of which they had no certaine or assured ground But to come somewhat neerer to him when Hierom had more perfectly translated the Scriptures his translation grew in the Latin Church to bee much respected and hath beene since in speciall name aboue any other The Councell of Trent hath decreed that that translation if at least it be that which now carieth his name wherof there is iust cause to doubt e Concil Trident sess 4. c. 2. shall stand for authenticall and good in all publike lectures disputations preachings expoundings and that no man vpon any pretence shall presume to reiect it Yet of that translation it is confessed by f See D. Rainolds Thes 5. § 30. where he citeth Budaeus Valla sir T. Moore acknowledging so much in the new Testament Pagnine Galatinus and Masius in the old Isidorus Clarius Andradius and Arias Montanus in both sundry the most learned of his side that there are many defaults and slippes wherein the interpreter hath swarued both from the words and from the right and true meaning of the holy Ghost Yea into that translation there were also crept by neglect manie grosse corruptions acknowledged by themselues and therfore g Biblia excusa Romae anno domini 1590.92.93 reformed first by Sixtus Quintus and afterward by Clement the eighth such as whereby the meaning of the text in many places was wholly altered And will this cauilling Sophister giue vs leaue to conclude heereof that there hath beene all the while that those errors and corruptions haue continued no goodnesse in the faith of their church of Rome that their Bibles by themselues haue been condemned for naught that their religion hath beene built vpon an euill foundation because there haue beene errors and imperfections in their translations of the Scriptures If hee thinke that this is no argument against them we must needs thinke him to be that that he is that would go about to blinde simple men by such a cauillation against vs. For thy better satisfaction gentle Reader thou maiest consider that translations of the Scriptures are the same to the Church as are glasse-windowes to a house The glasse neuer yeeldeth the light altogether so cleere as it commeth immediately from the Sun and the interleadding of it hindereth that there is not fully and thorowout a perfect transparence of the light and yet it giueth light so as serueth abundantly for the discerning of euery thing and for the directing and doing all the businesse of the house Euen so translations can neuer so cleerely and fully expresse the things that are translated as they are to be seene immediately in the originall from whence they are deriued By the vnperfect apprehension of the translatours it commeth to passe that they haue their ouersights as it were traces and barres of lead thorow which the light of the originall text perfectly shineth not which notwithstanding doe compact and hold together the body of the text as it were the glasse thorow which the Sunne of righteousnesse most comfortably shineth vnto vs and by which we haue vndoubted and certaine direction for the whole worke and seruice of the house of God There is in euerie language some special proprietie the grace and significancy whereof no other language by any industrie of the translator can atteine vnto There are in the originals but specially in the Hebrew tongue many words of doubtfull and diuers significations of which it is very hard manie times to say which best fitteth to expresse the meaning of the place Sometimes though the signification of the words be knowen yet the phrase and composition breedeth ambiguitie of translation By this meanes the wordes being subiect to diuers constructions one interpreteth them one way another another way and neither can controll other because it is hard to say which is the truest way Yea S. Aust doubteh not to say that h Aug. de dect Christ li. 3. cap. 27. Certè dei spiritus etiam ipsam alteram sententiam occursuraÌ„ lectori vel auditorisine dubitatione praeuidit imò vt occurreret quia ipsa est veritate subnixa prouidit Nam quid in diuinis eloquijs potuit largius wherius prouideri quam vt eadem verba pluribus intelligantur modis c. the holy Ghost for more large and plentifull instruction did not onely foresee but prouide that of the same words diuers meanings might be made which notwithstanding both or all should bee agreeable to the truth But there are furthermore many allusions many allegories many prouerbiall and figuratiue speeches the reasons whereof are not alwaies easily discerned and therfore they are coniectured diuers waies Sometimes it falleth out that the words of themselues seeme to the translatour to leane one way and the expositour seeth that by the drift and intendement of the text they are to goe another By these and other occasions translatours according to the gifts that God hath giuen them vse their iudgements diuersly one seeing that which another seeth not
not Apostolical traditions which appeare certainely so to be and yet woorthily we reiect those vnwritten doctrines and counterfet traditions of the Papists which are falsely fathered vpon the Apostles It is by these vnwritten doctrines and counterfet traditions that the grounds of our faith are impeached and shaken We therefore cannot be said to shake the grounds of faith who retaine the meere simplicity of those grounds and refuse all other strange and bastard stuffe but they shake the grounds of faith who become patrons of such tradition coloured with the names of the Apostles when notwithstanding they plainely crosse the written doctrine of the Apostles 2. W. BISHOP But let vs descend to the particulars wherein the truth will appeare more plainely Thus beginneth Master PERKINS with the Creede First of all it must be considered that some of the principall doctrines beleeued in the Church of Rome are that the Bishop of Rome is the Vicar of Christ and head of the Catholike Church that there is a fire of Purgatory that Images of God and Saints are to be placed in the Church and worshipped that Praier is to be made to Saints departed that there is a propitiatory sacrifice daily offered in the Masse for the sinnes of the quicke and the dead These points are of that moment that without them the Roman religion cannot stand c. And yet marke the Apostles Creed which hath beene thought to containe all necessary points of religion to be beleeued and hath therefore beene called the key and rule of faith This Creede I say hath not any of these points nor the expositions made thereof by the ancient Fathers nor any other Creed or confession of faith made by any Councell or Church for the space of many hundred yeeres This is a plaine proofe to any indifferent man that these bee new articles of faith neuer knowen in the Apostolike Church and that the Fathers and Councels could not finde any such articles of faith in the bookes of the old and new Testament Answer is made that all these points of doctrine are beleeued vnder the article I beleeue the Catholike Church the meaning whereof they will haue to be this I beleeue all things which the Catholike Church holdeth and teacheth to be beleeued If this bee as they say wee must beleeue in the Church that is put our confidence in the Church for the manifestation and the certainety of all doctrine necessary to saluation And thus the eternall truth of God the Creatour shall depend vpon the determination of the creature And the written word of God in this respect is made insufficient as though it had not plainely reuealed all points of doctrine pertaining to saluation And the ancient Churches haue beene farre ouer-secene that did not propound the former points to be beleeued as articles of faith but left them to these latter times Thus farre Master PERKINS Wherein are hudled vp many things confusedly I will answere briefly and distinctly to euery point The first is that in the Apostles Creede are contained all points of religion necessary to be beleeued which is most apparantly false as the Protestants themselues must needes confesse or else grant that it is not necessary to beleeue the King to be Supreame-head of the Church or that the Church is to be gouerned by Bishops or that we are iustified by Christs iustice imputed to vs or that there be but two Sacraments or that the Church seruice must be said in the vulgar tongue or that all things necessary to be beleeued to saluation are contained in the Scriptures To be short not one article of their religion which is contrary to ours is conteined in this Creede of the Apostles therefore to affirme as he doth all necessary points of religion to be contained in this Creede is to cast their owne religion flat to the ground and to teach that not one point of it is to be beleeued this Creede may neuerthelesse be called the key and rule of faith because it containeth the principall points of the Christian religion and doth open as it were the doore vnto all the rest and guide a man certainely vnto the knowledge of them by teaching vs to beleeue the Catholike Church which being the pillar and ground of truth 1. Tim. 3.15 Ioh. 16.13 directed and guided by the spirit of truth will alwaies instruct her obedient children in all truth necessary to saluation Then saith M. PERKINS The eternall truth of God the Creatour shall depend on the determination of the creature Nothing lesse for Gods truth is most sincere and certaine in it selfe before any declaration of the church but we poore creatures that are subiect to mistaking and error should not so certainely vnderstand and know that truth of God vnlesse hee had ordained and appointed such a skilfull and faithfull Mistris and interpreter to assure vs both what is his word and what is the true meaning of it Like as pure gold is not made perfect in it self by the Gold-smithes touch-stone but other men are thereby assured that it is true and pure gold euen so the word of God doth not borrow his truth from the Church but the true children of God are by the holy Church assured which is the same his word If we did hold as we do not that the written word containeth all points of doctrine necessary to saluation yet were it most necessary to relie vpoÌ„ the Catholike churches declaration both to be assured which books of scriptures be Canonicall which not whereupon Saint Augustine a man of far better iudgement than any of these daies said Con. Epist. Iud. cap. 5. that he would not beleeue the Gospel vnlesse the authority of the church mooued him therunto as also to vnderstand them truly because the words of holy Scripture without the true meaning and sense of them do but deceiue men and lead them into error and to that end haue alwaies beene and yet are by Heretikes abused to draw others after them into destruction The like may be said of other ancient Creeds and confessions of faith which holding the Apostles Creed did adde some few points vnto it namely such as were in those daies called into question by Heretikes of greater fame and who were followed of many not touching in particular diuers other articles generally beleeued of all true Christians or else by soâ—e fewe and obscure men onely questioned Wherefore to argue that no other points of faith are to be beleeued but such as are expressed in ancient Creeds is to cut off a great part of our faith Lastly it is most vntrue to say that those ancient Fathers and Councels knew not of these articles of faith by him mentioned for they haue most plainely taught them in their writings yea and expresly condemned of heresie most of the contrary positions now againe reuiued and holden by the Protestants as in those seuerall questions I haue before prooued R. ABBOT How M. Pirkins vnderstood that all necessary
points in religion to be beleeued are contained in the Creede I doe not well conceiue for my part I rather admit that the Creed is therefore called the key and rule of faith The Creed how the key and rule of faith for that it is a summary Briefe containing the principall and fundamentall points of Christian faith which doe as it weere open the doore to all the rest and by which all preaching and doctrine of faith is to be esteemed so as nothing may be admitted but what holdeth correspondence with this rule according to those vses which the Scripture teacheth vs to make of euery part therof Which the scripture I say teacheth vs to make for if we draw any article of our faith to the maintenance of any doctrine which hath no warrant or testimony of the Scripture we are corrupters of the faith and doe but abuse the name thereof to the cloaking of our owne deuice Thus M. Bishop and his fellowes corrupt the faith as touching the holy catholike church first in wresting the name of the catholike church to the particular church of Rome and secondly in challenging a certain and vndoubted credit to be yeelded to that church for the infallible resolution of all points of faith For as touching the first where hath the Scripture giuen vs any inckling that the name of the Catholike Church should in any peculiar manner be vnderstood of the Church of Rome We regard not their claime we know they haue tongue at will to speake for theÌ„selues but let them giue vs one word of God whereby it may appeare that by the name of the Church we are directed in special maner to that church We are not ignorant that amongst most ancient writers the name of Catholike church is sometimes giuen to the church of Rome but we know withall that it was no otherwise giuen to the church of Rome than to any other church euery Church being called a Catholike church as hath been a Answer to the Epistle sect 3. before shewed that communicated in true faith with the church dispersed thorow the whole world And therefore as Leo wrote himselfe b Leo epist. 12. Leo papa ecclesiae Catholicae vrbis Romae Bishop of the catholike church of the citie of Rome so doth Constantine the Emperour write c Socrat hist. li. 1. ca. 6. Constantinus Catholicae Alexandrinorum ecclesiae to the catholike church of Alexandria and Athanasius accordingly is entituled by his Clergy d Athanas Apolog 2. Theognio c. Presbyteri diaconi sub reuerendissimo episcopo Athanasio Catholicae ecclesiae Alexandrinae Bishop of the catholike church of Alexandria and Austin nameth e August cont Crescon li. 3. ca. 13. Omnis Aphricana Catholica ecclesia the catholike church of Africa and Aurelius writeth himselfe f Collat. cum Donat. cognit 1. ca. 16 Aurelius episcopus ecclesiae Catholicae Carthaginensis Bishop of the catholike church of Carthage and another Aurelius g Ibid. ca. 201. Aurelius episcopus ecclesiae Catholicae Macomadiensits cap. 204. Nouatus episcopus ecclesiae Catholicae Sitifensis Bishop of the catholike church of Macomodia and Nouatus Bishop of the catholike church of Sitif So in the fift councell at Constantinople we reade the holy h Concil Constantinop 5. act 1. Supplicatiâ— Ã Clericis Monachis Apostolici thront Antiochenae magnae â—uitatis Catholicae sanctae ecclesiae catholike church of Antioch and in the subscriptions of the Councell i Dei Act. 8. in subscript Sextiltanus in sericordia Dei episcopus ecclesiae Catholicae Tumensiu Megethius gratia Dei episcopus sanctae dei Catholicae ecclesiae ciuitatis Heracleae c. Sextilianus Bishop of the catholike church of Tunis Megethius Bishop of the holy catholike church of the city of Heracela and Pompeianus Bishop of the holy catholike church of the city of Victoria and sundry other the like By all which and many other examples it may appeare with how little discretion Dureus the Iesuit hath affirmed that k Duraeus cont Whitak li. 3. In nullum planè aliam Catholicae nomen ecclesiae quaerunque de Christiecclesia Prophetae praedixerunt quà m in Romanam conuenire possunt the name of the catholike church and those things which the Prophets haue forespoken of the church of Christ can agree to no other but to the church of Rome And with this madde and witlesse fancy they are all caried away so that there can bee no naming of the church or catholike church but it soundeth in their eares vndoubtedly to haue reference to the Church of Rome According to this fancy it is that M. Bishop heere would haue his Reader to imagine that by the beleefe of the Catholik church he is taught to beleeue the church of Rome And by the same illusion hee wresteth to his purpose the words of the Apostle that the church is the pillar and ground of truth and the promise that Christ maketh vnto his of his spirit to direct and guide them into all truth as if therein were some speciall priuiledge meant to the Roman church The Church how the pillar ground of truth But for the first place if any one church might challenge a prerogatiue therby it should be the church of Ephesus For Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus wished by the Apostle l 1. Tim. 1.3 to abide still there as specially to take vpon him the charge of that place He writeth to him purposely to instruct him how to carry himselfe in that charge m cap. 3.15 That thou maist know saith hee how thou oughtest to behaue thy selfe in the house of God which is the church of the liuing God the pillar grouÌ„d of truth The house of God then wherin Timothie was to conuerse which he was to gouern was the church of Ephesus as the church in general so this church for it own part in particular is called the church of the liuing God the pillar and ground of truth Yea these two goe hand in hand to be the house of God the church of the liuing God and to be the pillar and ground of truth Now of euery church of the faithfull it is said n 1. Pet. 2.5 Yee as liuely stones are made a spirituall house o 2. Cor. 6.16 yee are the Temple of the liuing God p Eph. 2.22 yee are built together in Christ to be Gods habitation Which way then I maruell is it now brought about that to be the pillar ground of truth should be a peculiar dignity of the church of Rome more than of the church of Ephesus or of any other particular church To be the pillar and ground of truth importeth the office and duty of the whole church and euery part thereof and not a speciall prerogatiue of any one church as to bee alwaies found so in act and execution The church is the pillar and ground of truth as the
Priest is q Mal. 2.7 the messenger of the Lord of hosts The Priest though he be by calling the messenger of the Lord yet sometimes neglecteth his calling and forbeareth to doe the message wherewith hee is sent and so the church though by duty it be the pillar and ground of truth appointed to vphold and maintaine the same yet sometimes forgetteth this duery and followeth lies in stead of truth For as the church is now so hath it euer beene from the beginning the pillar and ground of truth and yet we finde that very often the church of the Iewes in the time of the Iudges and vnder the wicked Kings of Iudah and Israel did forsake t Mal. 2.6 the law of truth which God had giuen vnto them went a whooring after strange and false gods and many waies prouoked him by their abominations For no longer doth the church continue to be as it ought to be the pillar and ground of truth than it continueth built vpon the foundations of truth ſ Eph. 2.20 vpon the foundations of the Apostles and Prophets as Saint Paul speaketh t Ambros in Eph. 2. Hoc est supra nouum vetus teslamentum collocati that is vpon the new and old Testament as Ambrose expoundeth it If it once go awry from those foundations truth falleth to the ground and it becommeth a pillar and fortresse of errour and vntruth Thus hath it come to passe in M. Bishops church of Rome which in her pride hath cast off the yoke which she at first tooke vpon her and hath magnified herselfe to be a Queene to giue lawes of her owne in stead of the lawes of Iesus Christ Shee is indeede by duety as all other churches are a pillar and ground of truth but being become the minion of Antichrist and prostituted to his adulterous desires shee hath learned for his sake and for her owne sake by him u 1. Tim. 4.2 to speake lies in hypocrisie and x 2. Pet. 2.3 through couetousnesse with feined words to make merchandise of y Reu. 18.13 the soules of men All which hypocrisie and feined words shee fairly gloseth and cōmendeth to men with this perswasion that she can not erre because she hath a promise of Christ to be alwaies directed and guided by his spirit into all trueth But where hath Christ made any such promise to the Church of Rome Whom and how the spirit of Christ leadeth into all truth Wee read that Christ said to his Apostles z Ioh. 16.13 When he is come which is the spirit of truth he will lead you into all trueth and wee beleeue that what hee spake to his Apostles he intended to the whole Church and to all the faithfull but neither doe we reade nor haue any cause to beleeue that Christ therein intended any thing in speciall to the church of Rome neither did euer any ancient Father or Councell gather any such thing out of those words And surely no otherwise doe they alleage this Scripture for themselues than the Manichees did for themselues and the Montanists for themselues For as the Manichees alleaging these words to colour their heresies against the Scripture appropriated the spirit of truth here spoken of to their Patriarch a August cont Faust Manich. lib. 32. cap. 17. Dicere soletis Ipse vos inducet in omnem veritatem c. de vestro Manichao esse praedictum Manicheus and the Montanistes in like sort to b Tertull. de Veland virginib sub initio Montanus as if in them and by them the spirit should direct the Church into all truth Euen so the Papists howsoeuer they talke of the Church directed by the spirit yet doe indeed put ouer the Church to the Pope placing the residence of the spirit in him that he may bee to the Church the infallible oracle of all truth In which fancie if they will expect to haue more credit than those heretikes had they must bring better warrant for themselues than those heretikes did But because they can bring vs none therefore we reiect them all alike as coseners and deceiuers of the Church pretending the spirit of truth for the maintenance of lies and claiming that credit to be giuen to an vsurping wretch which our Sauiour reserueth as proper to the holy Ghost The promise of the spirit as I said before belongeth to all the faithfull and of them all S. Iohn saith c 1 Ioh. 2.27 The anointing which yee haue receiued of him that is saith Austin d August in 1. Ioan. tract 4. Eadem vnctio id est ipse spiritus domini the spirit of the Lord teacheth you of all things Albeit when it is said all things and all truth we are not to vnderstand absolutely all for the spirit doth not teach vs to know e Idem in actis cum Felice Manich. lib. 1. cap. 10. Si hanc doctrinam putas ad illam veritatem pertinere c. interrogo te qunt sint stellae Ibid. Ego tibi possum dicere ea quae pertinent ad doctrinam Christianam how many starres there be as Austin opposeth to Felix the Manichee but he teacheth all things belonging to the doctrine of Christ as the same Austin there expoundeth Yea and yet further he excepteth by the words of the Apostle f Idem cap. 11. Dicebat Apostolus Ex parte scimus c. quia in i st a vita homo cum est non potest assequi omnia sed ex parte assequitur in hac vita ipse autem spiritus qui ex parte docet in hac vita post hanc vitam introducet in omnem veritatem Vide eund in Ioan. tract 96. We know in part and we prophecie in part that whilest a man is in this life he cannot attaine to all things but attaineth onely in part but the holy Ghost saith he which in this life teacheth in part shall after this life bring vs into all truth Hee therefore giueth vs to vnderstand that notwithstanding this promise of the spirit of truth it is incident to them to whom the same appertaineth to be ignorant in this life of many truthes to be subiect to mistaking and errour albeit the same spirit faileth not to enlighten them to that necessary truth which serueth for introduction finally to all truth And heerein the Apostle comforteth vs that g Phil. 3.15 that if any man be otherwise minded than is right God will reueale the same to him so long as in that whereunto we are come we proceed by one rule that we may minde one thing But wee are specially to note the reason which our Sauiour addeth to the words alleaged When he is come which is the spirit of truth he will leade you into all truth for he shall not speake of himselfe but whatsoeuer he shall beare shall he speake meaning thereby the same that he hath before said h Ioh. 14.26 He shall teach you all things
and bring all things to your remembrance that I haue told you and which he saith presently after i cap. 16.14 He shall glorifie me for he shall receiue of mine and shall shew it vnto you For hereby it is manifest that the holy Ghost which shall leade vs into all truth because he shall speake nothing of himselfe shall therefore k Thophylact in Ioan. 16. Nihil docturus est extra ea quae Christus docuit speake nothing but what Christ hath before spoken As therefore when Christ saith of himselfe l Ioh. 14.10 I speake not of my selfe hee would import that he spake nothing but what the father had before spoken in the Scriptures of the Law and the Prophets as m Chrysost de sanct orando spiritu Quia seductor est habitus dicit Ego à meipso non loquor sed de lege de Prophet is Chrysostome expoundeth it euen so when he saith of the holy Ghost that he shall speake nothing of himselfe we are likewise to conceiue that the holy Ghost shall teach nothing but what Christ himselfe hath first taught in the Scriptures of the Euangelists and Apostles Whereupon we conclude as Chrysostome doth n Ibid. Siquem videritis dicentem spiritum sanctum habee non loquentem Euangelica sed propria is à seipso loquitur non est spiritus sanctus in ipso Et paulò post Siquis eorum qui dicuntur habere spiritum sanctum dicat aliquid à seipso non ex Euangelijs ne credite c. Ex quo non legit haec scripta sed ex seipso loquitur manifestum est quod non habet spiritum sanctum If yee see a man saying I haue the holy Ghost and not speaking the things of the Gospell but matters of his owne he speaketh of himselfe and the holy Ghost is not in him If any of them who are said to haue the holy Ghost do speake any thing of himselfe and not out of the Gospell beleeue him not For that he readeth not those things which he saith in the Scriptures it is manifest that he hath not the holy Ghost Now therefore seeing M. Bishops church contrary to the ordinance of God seuereth o Esay 59.21 the spirit of truth from p Eph. 1 13. Col. 1.5 the word of truth and speaketh many things of her-felfe whereof Christ hath said nothing whereof wee reade nothing in the Scriptures it is manifest that they play the Sycophants as other heretikes haue done pretending to speake by the spirit of Christ when they speake wholly either by their owne or by a woorse spirit But M. Bishop not content with one corruption in substituting his church of Rome in the place of the Catholike Church of Christ addeth another in saying that that article of our Creede doth teach vs to beleeue the Catholike church Which words although being truely meant they expresse the same in English which wee say in Greeke and Latin yet being by the drift of his speech caried to a verie partiall and false construction doe shew him to be a leaud peruerter of our Christian faith For whereas we saie Credo sanctam ecclesiam Catholicam in the accusatiue case the meaning is I beleeue that there is a holy Catholike church namely that God the Father in all ages and at all times and amidst all the defections and corruptions of the world hath still had and shall haue his number of elect and chosen people to whom the benefite of Christs death and resurrection on standeth effectuall and good by the sanctification of the holy Ghost and the same now not of one nation or people onely but of all nations and peoples thorowout the whole world But M. Bishop by the currant of his speech turneth the accusatiue case into the datiue as if it were said in our Creed Credo ecclesiae sanctae Catholicae I giue credit to the holy Catholike church I beleeue it to be true whatsoeuer is taught me by the holy Catholike church that so his Reader thinkeing himselfe bound to beleeue the Catholike church and taking this Catholike church to be meant of the church of Rome may hold himselfe bound by the articles of his Creed in all things to beleeue the church of Rome Thus he and his fellowes most treacherously and leaudly against their owne knowledge and conscience delude simple and ignorant soules and make them slaues to their impious and wicked deuices by bearing them in hand that they are bound thus to obey the Catholike church Now heereof Master PERKINS iustly inferreth that the eternall truth of God the Creatour is heereby made to depend vpon the determination of the creature For let God say what he will wee shall not stand bound to take it for truth if the church shall say the contrary or vnlesse that which he saith be approoned by the Church Verily as Tertullian vpbraided of old the Senate of Rome that q Tertul. Apologet cap. 5. Apud vos de humano arbitratu diuinitas pensitatur nisi homini deus placuerit deus non erit with them Godhead stood at the discretion of men and vnlesse God did please man he should be no God so may it well be said now of the church of Rome that with them the religion of God standeth at their discretion and that onely shall be religion that pleaseth them For the Bishop of Rome whilest hee taketh vpon him to make declaration of Christian faith maketh what he list of Christian faith and hath verified of himselfe that which Hierome said of Antichrist that r Hieron in Daniel 7. Eleuatur supra omne quod dicitur deu◠cunctam religionem suae subijciens potestati he should subiect all religion to his owne power For the colouring of which iniquity M. Bishop according to their maner vseth guilefull words of notable hypocrisie and with a faire tale gloseth a grosse indignity and damnable presumption against God He telleth vs that Gods truth is sincere and certaine in it selfe before any declaration of the Church Well and what hath the church then to doe with this sincere and certaine truth Forsooth we poore creatures are subiect to mistaking and errour and doe not so certainly vnderstand that truth of God But who are those poore creatures of whom he speaketh Marry M. Bishop and such other petites who are but dij minorum gentium they are poore creatures but the Pope and his Cardinals and the Bishops that comply to him they are rich creatures they are the Church they are exempted from mistaking and errour we must thinke all perfection of wit to be lodged in their braines and that they certainely vnderstand and know the truth of God But what assurance can they giue vs in this behalfe Surely the Scribes and Pharisees the high Priests and Elders of the lewes had as much to say for themselues and a great deale more than they They could plead for themselues ſ Ioh. 8.33 We are the
locall circumscription it is no instance against M. PER. rule that locall circumscription cannot be seuered from a true body But because he taketh locall circumscription so nicely as we see he doth I would gladly haue him to resolue vs one question thereof and his answer shall shew the nullity of his owne exception He hath told vs a Preface to the Reader sect 2. before that the body of Christ is in one place circumscribed and in another vncircumscribed circumscribed in heauen and in the Sacrament vncircumscribed Now let him tell vs how the body of Christ in heauen hath locall circumscription To speake of Physicall and material heauens it is true of Christ which the Apostle saith b Ephe. 4.10 He is ascended far aboue all heauens and therefore aboue that highest heauen which M. Bishop nameth to vs beyond which there is neither vacuum nor locus properly so called but the incomprehensible habitation of diuine light which our thoughts are in no sortable to conceiue How then is the body of Christ locally circumscribed where yet there is no Physicall or naturall place Let him giue vs answer heereof and then we will answer him that looke what giueth locall circumscription to the body of Christ in heauen the same also giueth locall circumscription to the highest heauen Vnderstand the highest heauen gentle Reader as M. Bishop doth for the vttermost sphere of the materiall globe of this visible world beyond which is that heauen into which we beleeue our Lord Iesus to haue ascended and where we hope to dwell with him This exception being frustrate let vs see the rest where M. Bishop standing nicely and precisely vpon termes of schooles telleth vs that M. PERKINS makes himselfe a common mocking-stocke to euery simple Logician of whom notwithstanding I dare boldly say that hee was as good a Logician as Doctour Bishop is though writing to the people he vsed his words accordingly He saith that quantity is the common essence of euery body and who knoweth not saith M. Bishop that no accident as euery quantity is can be of the essence of a substance as Christs body is Well Sir but yet quantity giueth existence to euery body which is enough to M. PER. purpose and to be the subiect of quantity or indued with quantity is the common and true essence of a body If he will say nay we desire him of his courtesie to take the paines to send vs without quantity the true definition of a body Albeit his reading might serue him to vnderstand that there are few learned men or none at all so strict in termes but that they call by the name of essentiall properties whatsoeuer doth immediately and necessarily issue from the essence of a thing though according to Logicke rules it be no part of the essence thereof And thus M. PERK saith againe that to be circumscribed in place is an essentiall property of euery quantity which saith M. Bishop no man would say that cared what hee said And why Because all numbers saith hee which be quantities haue no relation vnto any place But hee might easily haue conceiued that M. PER. as I said before spake according to vulgar vse which for the most part vnderstandeth quantity of the magnitude and greatnesse of bodies in which meaning it is a property flowing out of the essence of euery quantity not onely to be apt to be circumscribed with a place but to be circumscribed and determined locally according to that meaning of locall circumscription which I haue before expressed Therefore in this sort it is not a meere accident to a substantiall body to be circumscribed but it is proprium quarto modo agreeing alwaies to euery body and to nothing but a body necessarily arising of the dimensions of the length breadth and thicknesse of a body and the deniall whereof is the taking away of the nature of a body As for his allegation of the almightie power of God how idle it is it hath beene c Preface to the Reader sect 8. before declared For God doth not by his omnipotency contradict himselfe neither doth his power serue to make good the fantasticall dreames of giddy headed men to be said to destroy the nature of a thing and yet to leaue it still continuing the selfe-same thing But it is woorth the noting how M. Bishop heere plaieth the micher and stealeth by two allegations vsed by M. Perkins very pertinent to the matter heere in hand It is for the illocality of the body of Christ that M. Bishop pleadeth the omnipotency of God but M. Perkins bringeth in Leo Bishop of Rome saying that d Leo. epist. 70. Nulla ratione extranostri est corporis veritatem the body of Christ is in no sort without the truth of our body This he passeth by without any mention of it as if he had not seene any such thing The words of Saint Austin he vouchsafed to take some knowledge of but applieth them generally to all bodies whereas Saint Austin also spake of the body of Christ making a difference betwixt Christ as God and man e August in Ioan. tract 31. In terra loquebatur tamen in caelose esse dicebat sic venit vt inde non abscederet sic redijt vt nos non derelinqueret Quid miraminâ— Deus hoc facit Homo enim secundù m corpus in loco est de loco migrat cum ad alium locum venerit in eo loco vnde venit non est Deus autem implet omnia vbique totus est non secundum spatia tenetur locis Christ saith he spake vpon earth and yet said he was in heauen the sonne of man which is in heauen He so came as that he departed not from thence he so returned as that he did not forsake vs. Why do ye wonder heereat saith he God doth this For man according to his body is in a place and departeth from the place and when he is come into another place is not in that place from whence hee came but God filleth all things and is whole euery where and is not conteined in â—ace of place Thus doth Saint Austin distinguish the God-head and man-hood of Christ making the body of Christ of the same condition with our bodies so as that it leaueth one place whensoeuer it commeth to another The church of Rome therefore affirming a body of Christ without extention or space of place that is a ghost in stead of a body impugneth the article of our faith whereby we beleeue that he was conceiued and borne of the substance of the Virgin Mary according to the truth and condition of our bodies 5. W. BISHOP By this is confuted also his second instance Christ is ascended into heauen and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father therefore his body is not really and locally in the Sacrament This followeth not Chrysost lib. de sacerd because it is in both places at once as Saint Chrysostome in
de notis eccles cap. 7. Si solae vna prouincia retineret veram fidem adhuc verè propriè diceretur ecclesia Catholica dummodo clarè ostenderetur eam esse vnam eandem cum illa quae fuit aliquo tempore vel diuersis in toto mundo if one only countrey should retaine the true faith yet the same should truly and properly be called the Catholike church so that it might cleerely be shewed to be one and the same with that which hath been at any time or times ouer the whole world For by this rule nothing hindreth but that our church though now it be not receiued generally in the greatest part of the Christian world yea if it were but in one onely country yet may truely and properly be called the Catholike church if it be prooued to be one and the same with the church which at any time heeretofore was spred ouer all the world But that our church is the same with that which at the first was spred thorowout the world it is very euident as Tertullian teacheth vs to prescribe g Tert. de praescript adu haeret In eadem fide conspirantes non minus Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae by consanguinity or agreement of our doctrine with the doctrine of that church For by the Gospell which the Apostles preached the church was founded thorowout the whole world h Iren. lib. 3. cap. 1. Quod quidem tunc praeconiauerunt postea per dei voluntatem in Scripturis nobis tradiderunt fundamentum columnam fidei nostrae futurum The gospell which the Apostles preached they afterwards by the will of God deliuered to vs in the Scriptures to be the foundation and pillar of our faith The same Gospel deliuered to vs in the Scriptures we receiue we adde nothing to it we take nothing from it as we finde it so we teach it Our faith therefore is the same with the faith of that church which at the first was planted thorowout the whole world There is no cause then for vs to forsake our owne church or to thinke that the same began with Friar Luther as this dreamer imagineth which by so plaine deduction is approoued to be the same with the first church and consequently to be truely and properly the Catholike Church Finally saith he they beleeue no church in all points of faith But doth his wisedome finde it in the articles of the Creed that we are to beleeue any church in all points of faith The church how farre to be beleeued in points of faith We are taught there to beleeue that there is a holy catholike Church which is the communion of Saints but nothing doe we finde there of beleeuing any Church in all points of faith We beleeue the Church in points of faith so farre as she yeeldeth herselfe like a faithfull and obedient spouse to be guided by the voice of her Lord and husband Iesus Christ But if the Church preferre her owne will before the word of Christ as the proud harlot of Rome doth it should be a wrong to Christ to beleeue the Church and a way to set vp humane errour in stead of diuine truth It is not the voice of the Church but the word of the written Gospell which God hath appointed as Irenaeus euen now hath told vs to be the foundation and pillar of our faith For the words of the Church are many times the words of errour and vntruth and therefore if we should relie our saluation vpon the credit thereof wee should indeed relie vpon an vncertaine ground and erring guide but the word of the Gospell is alwaies one and the same without any variablenesse or vncertainty and therefore safely may wee relie our saluation thereupon Now therefore it cannot be said but that wee alwaies beleeue one holy catholike Church according to the profession of faith specified in the Creed though sometimes and in some things we doe not beleeue that is credit the visible Church as touching points of faith because the Church sometimes teacheth vs to beleeue otherwise than God hath taught Which though it seeme strange to M. Bishop in that language which he hath learned to speake yet to vs it is not strange who in the Canonicall histories of the Churches both of the old and new Testament do so often see them diuerting and turning from the right way As for that hee saith that our learned masters doe commonly cashiere out of the Creed the addition of the cōmunion of saints it is but a fruit of the harnessing of his face and he is therefore bold to say it because he hath learned not to be ashamed of any thing that he list to say That by the Saints are there meant al good Christians all the faithful whether aliue or dead we will not denie Communion of Saints implieth neither Purgatorie nor praier to saints but that either praier to saints or praier for soules in purgatorie belong to this communion of Saints we neuer yet learned and are too old to learne it now For as for the Saints in heauen i Aug. de vera relig cap 55. Honoramus eos charitate non seruitute honorandi propter imitationem non propter religionem adorandi We honour them with loue as Austin saith but not with seruice to follow them by imitation not to adore them by religion and therefore not to pray vnto them Further entercourse as yet there is none betwixt them and vs because k Esay 63.16 they know vs not nor are acquainted with vs nor can we any way acquaint them what wee say vnto them Now beside the Saints triumphant in heauen wee acknowledge none but those that are militant vpon the earth because the holie Ghost diuideth the whole body of the Church into l Eph. 1.10 Col. 1.20 those that are in heauen and those that are in earth and pronounceth them all m Reu. 14.13 blessed that are dead in Christ as who rest from labours and sorrowes and thereby are discharged from all Purgatorie paines But if there be any soules in Purgatorie to which all good Christian soules should yeeld and affoord their helpe to doe them ease and this be one matter of the entercourse and communion of Gods Saints why doth the Pope violate the communion of Saints by withholding from those tormented soules that helpe and ease which he is able to affoord them Surely if he cannot doe them ease then is he an impudent liar and a notable impostour and cozener of the world If he can do it then is he a cruell wretch that without compassion suffereth poore souls to lie broiling in those fierie flames But we rather approoue the former member of this diuision and take him for a liar both for that without warrant hee thrusteth in Purgatorie into the articles of our faith and with lesse warrant challengeth the same for a iurisdiction to himselfe 13. W. BISHOP 10 The forgiuenesse of sinnes
Sunne and in the Moone and vpon the crosse that is in many places and that c Idem in Ioan. er 31. Cùm ad alium locum venerit in eo loco vnde venit non est When he is come to another place he is not in the place from whence he came and therefore that d Vigil cont Eutich lib. 4. Quando in terra fuit caro Christi non erat vtiâ— in coelo nunc quia in coelo est non est vtique in terra The body of Christ when it was vpon earth was not in heauen and now because it is in heauen it is not vpon the earth that e Ambr. in Luc. l. 1. c. 24. Ergo non supra terram nec interra nec secundum carnem ti quaerere debemus si volumus inuenire c. Stephanus tetigit quia quaesiuit in coele If we will find Christ we must not seeke him in the earth nor vpon the earth nor according to the flesh but in heauen They would neuer haue spoken thus without any limitation or exception if they had beleeued that which M. Bishop heere would make vs beleeue out of the doctrine of the church of Rome that the body of Christ may be in infinite places at once that it may be together both in heauen and earth with forme and without forme both visible and inuisible both circumscribed and vncircumscribed that is to say by a plaine contradiction both that that it is and that that it is not Surely they would haue saied as we doe If it be visible it cannot be inuisible or if it be inuisible it cannot be visible if it haue forme then it is not without forme or if it be without forme how should it be said to haue any forme both these cannot stand together True saith M. Bishop in one and the same maner of existence and being And say I if it be but one and the same body it can at once haue but one maner of existing and being for according to the same or totally to be thus not thus cannot agree to one and the same thing As for his instances whereby hee would take away the improbabilitie of this fancie they are altogether ridiculous Christ saith hee when hee was transfigured had another maner of outward forme and appearance then he had before and after his resurrection when it pleased him hee was visible to his Apostles and at other times inuisible And what then Ergo Christs body may be in many places at once it may together be both visible and inuisible and whatsoeuer pleaseth them But a man may euen as well say M. Bishop is sometimes hot and sometimes cold somtimes asleepe sometimes awake sometimes sober sometimes merrie sometimes like a schollar sometimes like a swaggerer sometimes at Rome sometimes in England ergò hee may at one time be together both asleepe and awake both visible and inuisible both at Rome and in England and in many places at once so that though by Parsons procurement he were fast laied vp in prison yet he might at the same time be personally before the Pope to acquaint him with the appeale of the secular Priests and the exorbitant dealing of the Iesuites against them What will he not call him a dreaming Sophister that should conclude thus Well then let him for his paines take his fellow to him and learne to argue more wisely another time But marke heere gentle Reader that M. Bishop maketh Philosophie a witnesse of this matter We haue thought heeretofore that they rested the same wholly and meerely vpon the omnipotent power of God and haue obserued how their schoole-philosophers when they speake of relation of bodies to their places do except this matter of the reall presence as a matter of irregularity not comming within compasse of the rules of Philosophy but farre transcendent aboue all their learning Now M. Bishop will make vs beleeue that it standeth with good Philosophy and that all their Philosophers haue all this while beene deceiued marrie it is woorth the while to note in what termes and how warily he hath set it downe The externall relations of bodies vnto their places do no whit at all destroy their inward and naturall substances as all Philosophy testifieth You say well M. Bishop and very wisely Indeed it is not relation to a place but the want of relation to a place that taketh away the nature of a body For f Aug. epist 50. spatia locorum tolle corporibus nusquam erunt quia nusquam erunt nec erunt take from bodies space of place saieth Austin and they shall be no where and because they shall be no where they shall not be at all g Cyril de Trinit lib. 2. si corpus in loco omninò in magnitudine in quantitaete si quanta facta esset non effugeret cireumscriptionem If it be a body saith Cyrill then verily it is in a place and hath greatnesse and quantitie and if it haue quantitie it cannot be but that it must be circumscribed h Didym de spâ—sancto l. 2. si spiritus veritatis iuxta naturas corporum circumscriptus est certo spacio alium deserens locum ad alium commigrauit It is the nature of a body saieth Didymus to be circumscribed in a certaine space and therefore by comming into one place it must forsake another You therefore affirming the body of Christ vncircumscribed and hauing no commensuration or space of place and comming into one place without the leauing of another doe thereby vtterly destroy the nature of a body i Ibid. Impossibile est impium ista quae diximus in corporalibus credere It is impossible and a thing impious saith Didymus to beleeue these things concerning bodily substances This was the Philosophy that these Fathers had learned They knew by Philosophy and by trueth that a body must haue extension of parts and one part different and distant from another and place correspondent to euerie part so that where one part is there another cannot be and the whole so limited to one place as that without leauing that place it cannot be in another but neither did Philosophy nor Diuinitie teach them that vncircumscribed body which M. Bishop speaketh of 3. W. BISHOP Secondly Master PERKINS chargeth vs with disgrading Christ of his offices saying that for one Iesus Christ the only King law-giuer and head of the Church they ioine vnto him the Pope not only as a Vicar but as a fellow in that they giue vnto him power to make lawes binding in conscience to resolue and determine infallibly the sense of holy Scripture properly to pardon sinne to haue authority ouer the whole earth and a part of hell to depose Kings to whom vnder Christ euery soule is subject to absolue subjects from the oath of allegeance c. Answer Here is a bed-role of many superfluous speeches for not one of all these things if
without a circumscribed place is to say that it may be at once both a body and not a body circumscribed and not circumscribed which being a thing repugnant to the truth of God to say that a thing is and yet it is not it is that which it is not and it is not that which it is the deniall thereof is not a deniall of Gods omnipotency but a reproofe of mens folly who to vphold their owne deuises sticke not to broach paradoxes and strange opinions iniurious vnto almighty God They who affirme the vbiquity of the body of Christ they likewise pretend for their defence the omnipotency of God And what will M. Bishop I maruell answer them thereof Is not their allegation of Gods almighty power as strong against him as his is against vs And will he be taken to deny the omnipotency of God because he subscribeth it not to be a matter of Gods omnipotency to make a finite creature of like infinity with himselfe If not let him yeeld the same measure to vs that he doth to himselfe and acknowledge his own temerity and rashnesse in charging vs that we limit the infinit power of God within the compasse of mans weake vnderstanding and in effect make him no God at all only because we will not betray Gods omnipotency to be the releefe of their fancy He telleth vs of some who were so blind and bold as to auouch God not to be able to conceiue or vnderstand how that is possible which he hath spoken of and this he noteth to haue been in a conference at Paris but who they were or when this conference was he telleth vs nothing and for my part I take it that he doth therein but vse his liberty he knoweth what I meane as he is wont to do Albeit I doubt not but some man in some forme of words might allude to that which Thomas Aquinas saith who hauing affirmed the impossibility of Gods doing those things which absolutely in themselues are vnpossible addeth m Tho. Aqu. vt supra Nesp hoc est contra verbuÌ„ angeli dicentis Non erit impossibile deo omne vertuÌ„ Id enim quod contraâ—ictionem implicat verbum esse non potest quia nullus intellectus potest illud concipere Neither is this contrary to the word of the Angell saying No word shall be vnpossible to God for that which implieth contradiction can be no word saith he because no vnderstanding speaking vniuersally is able to conceiue it Yet M. Bishop telleth vs that very naturall Philosophy teacheth that that which they say hath no repugnancy in it selfe as in his place saith he I haue prooued but where that place is we doe not yet find As for the Philosophy which they teach their naturals we doe not well know what it is but we well thinke that neuer any wise Philosopher was so vnreasonable a naturall as to hold it a matter of naturall reason that a body should be without circumscription and yet remaine a body or be in many places at once being but one and the same body and that the ancient Fathers were of another reason I haue n Sect. 2. before shewed And if by naturall Philosophy it may be made good why doth he a little before blame mans weake vnderstanding as vnable to conceiue it why doe their writers of naturall Philosophy alwaies passe it ouer as a matter beyond their element and without the compasse of their rules yea why doe they all rest it vpon so extraordinary an act of Gods omnipotency if there be nothing but what the light of naturall Philosophy can enable vs to comprehend To conclude this point before M. Bishop any more question Gods power in this matter we wish him to resolue vs of Gods will and if he can approoue to vs the will of God we will doubt no farther of his power If he cannot so doe he doth but reason as Praxeas the Heretike did o Tertul. adu praxcam Ergò inquiunt difficile non fuit deo ipsum se patrem fiiium facere c. sed si tam abruptè in praesumptionibus nostris hac sententia vtamur quiduis de deo confingere poterimus quasi fecerit quia facere potuerit It was not hard or vnpossible to God to make himselfe both the Father and the Sonne his heresie standing in the confounding of the persons and making them all one But saith Turtullian if in our owne presumptions we so abruptly vse that sentence that nothing is vnpossible to God we may feigne of God what we list and say that he hath done it because he could doe it M. Bishop then must not maruell that in his presumptions we likewise resist him As Tertullian required the Heretikes so doe we him to prooue to vs p Ibid. Probare debebis ex scripturis c. by Scripture that which he affirmeth to be beleeued vpon the power of God 9. W. BISHOP If they were enemies to Gods omnipotencie alone it might be somewhat excused because that might seeme to proceed rather from the weaknesse of their vnderstanding then out of any ill affection towards God but if they doe further oppose themselues against the goodnesse mercy and iustice of God that must needs discouer very great impietie to lie festring in their bowels Who seeth not that it doth highly attaint the inestimable goodnesse of God and his tender loue towards mankind to impute the reprobation of man and his eternall damnation not vnto mans owne wickednesse and deserts but vnto the meere will and pleasure of God himselfe and yet this is too too common an assertion amongst the Protestants In colloq Monpelgar pag. 522. Let Beza one of their brauest champions speake for the rest God saith hee in his secret counsell hath set downe an vnremooueable decree that he will not haue the greater part of men saued nor to beleeue in Christ and come to the knowledge of trueth but hath created ordained and predestinated them to euerlasting damnation Pag. 336. To whom M. PERKINS in this booke draweth neere affirming it to proceed from the verie will of God that he shewes mercy to some and forsaketh others Mercy indeed God of his meere goodnesse doth powre out vpon vs abundantly but to imagine that hee of his owne will and prime choise without any foresight of our sinnes doth forsake vs and appoint vs to hell fire is heinous impiety most contrary vnto the very nature of God whose goodnesse is so pure and sincere that it doth good to all things and wisheth euill to none vnlesse they doe first greatly deserue it What an vngodly opinion then is it to hold that hee of his owne free choise ordained man a creature made to his owne Image and likenesse to most grieuous and endlesse torments without foresight of any offence of his As though he should take a singular pleasure to see a principall worke of his owne hands frie in hell fire R. ABBOT Here M. Bishop
ait si autem volens deus estendere iram c. when men are said to be deliuered ouer to their owne lusts they must be vnderstood to be left by Gods sufferance and permission not by his power to be forced into sinne Saint Austin answereth As though the Apostle had not set downe both these together both Gods sufferance and his power where he saith If God would to shew his wrath and to make his power knowen suffer with long patience the vessels of wrath prepared to destruction But he goeth yet further r Idid Quid tamen horum dicis esse quod scriptum est Et prophetasi errauerit c. patientia est an potentia An hic dicturus es quòd Ego dominus seduxi Prophetam illuÌ„ intelligendum est deserui vt pro eius meritâ—s seductus erraret Whether of these wilt thou say it is which is written Å¿ Ezec. 14 9. If that Prophet be deceiued when hee hath spoken a thing I the Lord haue deceiued that Prophet and I will stretch out my hand vpon him and I will destroy him out of the middest of my people Israel is this Gods permission or his power Wilt thou heere say that I the Lord haue deceiued that Prophet must be vnderstood I haue forsaken him that according to his deserts being deceiued he might erre Saint Austin thinketh it strange that where God saith I The Lord haue deceiued that Prophet Iulian should construe it I haue forsaken that Prophet and suffered him to be deceiued and why then doth M. Bishop taxe Caluin for reiecting the same construction Caluins words fully accord with the words of Austin t Caluin Instutut lib. 1. cap. 18. sect 2. Haee etiam ad permissionem multi reijciunt atsi dâ—screndo reprobes à satana excaecari sincret sed cum disertè exprimat spiritus iusto dei iudicio iâ—fligi caecitatem amentiam nimis friuola est illa solutio These things many refer to sufferance as if by forsaking the reprobate he suffered them to be blinded of Satan but seeing the holy Ghost plainly expresseth that blindnesse and madnesse is inflicted by the iust iudgement of God that solution is too fond In the censuring of which words M. Bishop through Caluins side woundeth Saint Austin and the whole Church which tooke part with him against the Pelagian heretikes But heere it is to be noted how guilefully Master Bishop suppresseth the reason which M. Caluin alleageth for the reiecting of that solution and whereby he maketh good that it is to be reiected For Gods iudgements are not matters of permission left to the diuell or to men to doe if they will but passe from God by sentence and decree that thus or thus it shal be And therefore Saint Austin expresseth this iudgement by such termes as goe far beyond the words of permission or desertion As where the Apostle saith of idolaters u Rom. 1.27 They receiued in themselues such recompence of their errour as was meet x Aug. cont Iulian lib. 5. ca. 3. Dicit vtique damnatos vt tanta operarentur mala tamen ista damnatio reatus est quo grauius implicantur he meaneth saith he that they were condemned to the working of so great sinnes and this damnation notwithstanding is a guilt wherewith they are more grieuously intangled Surely to be condemned to the committing of sinne is a far greater matter euen in all mens cies then to be only permitted and suffered to sinne But he noteth it as a thing y Ibid. Et quod est mirabilius etiam oportuisse dicit eos istam mutuam mercedem recipere more strange that the Apostle saith it was behoouefull or meet that they should receiue this recompence one of them by another This is much against Master Bishops minde that God did not only condemne them to sin but therein did that that was meet and behoueful to be done Yea he saith afterwards of Ahab z Ibid IniusÌ„tuÌ„ erat qui non crediderat deo vero deciperetur à falso It stood not with iustice but that he who beleeued not the true God should be deceiued by a false diuell Againe sundry places he alleageth to such purpose as haue beene before cited and saith thereof a Ibid. In quibus liquidò apparet occulto dei iudicio fieri peruersitatem cordis â—t non audiatur verum quod dicitur inde peâ—cetur sit ipsum peccatum praecedentis etiam poena peccati Nam credere mendacio now credere veritati vtique peccatum est venit tamen ab ea caecitate cordis quae occulto iudicio dei sed tamen iusto etiam peccati paena monstratur By these manifestly it appeareth that by the secret iudgment of God there is wrought a peruersnes of heart not to heare the truth and thereby to sinne and this sinne is the punishment of former sinne For it is sinne saith he to beleeue lies and not to beleeue the truth and yet this commeth of that blindnesse of heart which by the secret but iust iudgement of God is declared to be the punishment of sinne So againe elswhere he saith that b Idem de grat lib. arbitr c. 21. Quis non ista iudicia diuina contremiscat quibus agit deus in cordibus etiam malorum hominum quicquid vult reddens eis tamen secundum merita ipsorum Et Paulò post Agit omnipotens in cordibus hominum etiam motum voluntatu ecrum vt per eos agat quod per eos agere ipse voluerit qui omnino iniustè aliquid velle non nouit God worketh in the hearts of euill men whatsoeuer he will rendring to them notwithstanding according to their deserts that hee stirreth in their hearts the motion of their will to doe by them what he will doe by them who vniustly can will nothing He goeth on and for proofe heereof alleageth sundry texts of scripture and in the end concludeth c Ibid. His talibus testimonijs satis quantum opinor manifestatur operari deum in cordibus hominum ad inclinandas eorum voluntates quocunque voluerit siue ad bona pre sea misericordia siue ad mala pro meritis eorum iudicio vtique suo aliquando aperto aliquando occulto semper autemiusto It is heereby manifest enough as I suppose that God worketh in the hearts of men to incline their wills whithersoeuer he will either to good for his owne mercy sake or to euill for mens owne merits and that by his iudgement sometimes manifest and apparant sometimes secret but alwaies iust And thus had he said before of that it is said that the Lord spake to Shimei to curse Dauid that d Ibid. cap. 20. Non iubendo dixit vbi obedientia laudaretur sed quòd voluntatem eius proprio suo vitio malam in hoc peccatum iudicio suo iusto occultâ— inclinauit ideò dictum est Dixit ci
Dominus he did not speake to him by vocall bidding him so to doe as that his obedience therein should be commended but because by his iust and secret iudgement he inclined his wil to this sinne which will was euill by it owne default therefore is it said The Lord hath spoken to him In all which places it is to be noted what phrases Saint Austin vseth to set foorth Gods power and worke in the sinnes of men and how much different from Master Bishops deuise of permission and sufferance when he saith that God worketh in their hearts stirreth the motion of their will causeth in them frowardnesse of heart not to beleeue the truth inclineth their wills to euill which yet God doth not directly and properly but though indirectly and accidentally yet he doth it e Idem cont Iulian vt supra facit haec mitis ineffabilibus modis qui nouit iudicia sua non solùm in corporibus hominum sed inipsu cordibus operari by wonderfull and vnspeakable meanes and waies as Austen saith and his iudgement therein is to be feared and trembled at Now to some of these testimonies of Austen Bellarmine giueth no answer because they are such as he could not well deuise what to say to them to the rest as to some texts of Scripture he so answereth as that in effect he iustifieth all that we say He affirmeth that f Bellar. de Amiss grat c. l. 2. c. 13. praesidet ipsis voluntatibus malis easque regit gubernat torquet flectit inuisibiliter in eis operando vt licet proprio vitio malae sint tamen a diuina prouidentia ad vnum potiùs malum quà m ad aliud non positiuè sed permissiuè ordinentur God hath a moderation and presidency ouer the euill wills of men that he ruleth and gouerneth them wresteth and boweth them by working inuisibly in them so that albeit they be euill by their owne corruption yet by Gods prouidence they are ordered rather to one euill than to another not by the position of the euill it selfe but by the permission of it The explication hereof he borroweth from Hugo de S. Victore who amongst other words hath these g Ibidem ex Hugone Voluntati malae vitium est ex ipsa quo mala est ordo autem ex deo est quo per velle siue ad het siue ad illud est In voluntate ergò vitium est ipsum malum est ex ipso voluntas mala est In velle autem vitium est inquantum velle ex mala voluntate est ordo est inquantum ad hoc vel hoc ex disponeÌ„te est Et cùm ipsum velle ad hoc aliquid est malum est quod ad hoe est quia mala voluntate est quod autem ad hoc potiùs quà m ad illud est bonum est quia ordo est ex benè disponente est The euill will of man hath of it selfe the corruption whereby it is euill but the order whereby in willing it tendeth either to this or that is of God In the will then is the corruption and that is euill and thereby the will is euill but in the act of willing there is both the corruption for that it proceedeth from the will being euill and there is order for that of him that disposeth it it commeth that it tendeth to this or that And when the act of willing is to this certaine thing it is euill as it is to this because it commeth of an euill wil but that it is to this rather than to that it is good because this is order and commeth of him that well disposeth it Which words of Hugo doe notably illustrate and confirme that which hath been before said of a difference alwaies to be made of the sinne it selfe which is of man only and the circumstance and order of it which may not be denied to be of God Furthermore Bellarmine in the same place approoueth that which before hath been alleaged out of Thomas Aquinas that God inclineth to euill h Bellar. vt supra Non solum permittendo c. sed etiam positiuè c. non quidem per se physicè mouendo sed occasionaliter vt S. Thomas loquitur c. positiuely by way of occasion whilst he offereth to the inward or outward man those things which being good yet man by his corruption turneth to sinne So much also he confesseth in the next Chapter and there denieth not but that God i Ibid. ca. 14. Occasione talium rerum dicitur deus ex ecare vel indurare per accident is said accidentally to blind men harden them by such occasions In another place he saith rightly and we say the same that k Ibid. cap. 16. Neque enim deus fens est vnde turbulenti scelerum torrentes manant sed artifex est mirabilis qui ad vsum suum torrentes illes per se fluentes contorquet ordinat ad bonum aliquod perficienâ—um God is not a fountaine whence the troubled streames of wicked acts doe flow but he is a workman of admirable skill who can force and turne to his own vse those streames flowing of themselues and ordereth them to the doing of some good And in the same Chapter he saith further l Ibid. Deus non solum deserit peccatores cùm eas tradit dâ—siderijs cordis corum sed coruÌ„ malas voluntates c. ita mirabiliter torquet regit ordinat vt ex eis bonum eliciat faciat vt etiam inuitae nolentes sibiseruiuÌ„t hoc ipso quod libenter faciunt iusto dei iudicio grauissime puniantur Et mox Mirabili potentia regit corda etiaÌ„ impioruÌ„ impedit ne aliud perficiant conentur vel nt cogitent quaÌ„ quod ipse permittit ipsamque culpaÌ„ eu vertit in paenaÌ„ ad multa bona malis corum voluntatibus ipse sum◠è potens summeque bonus vtitur that God doth not only forsake sinners when he giueth them vp to their owne lusts but doth so wonderfully turne and wind gouerne and order their euill wills as that out of them he draweth some good and causeth them perforce and against their wills to serue him and by the iust iudgement of God they are grieuously punished for that which in the meane time they willingly doe that by his wonderfull power he ruleth the hearts euen of wicked men and hindereth them that they may not doe indeauour will or thinke any thing but what he permitteth and suffereth and turneth their sinne to be their punishment and being most mighty and most highly good vseth their euill wills to many good purposes I need not alleage any thing from him to shew that God concurreth to all the actions and motions of men for that is a thing confessed on all sides only he excepteth that whereas God concurreth only m Ibi. cap. 5. Deus
ne exparte veritas ex parte mendacium credatur in Christo. as the scourged and rent body of Christ did carry the markes of wrong done to him by stripes and blewnesse of wounds as Hierome saith so that his soule did verily endure griefe for vs lest partly a truth and partly a lie should be beleeued in Christ If we say that Christ suffered for vs in body onely it shall be a lie to say of Christ as touching his soule that he suffered for vs but therefore doe we beleeue that both in body and soule he suffered that it may be wholly a truth which we beleeue and Christ may be acknowledged to be a perfect Redeemer both of body and foule Now it is true indeede that the soule suffereth by the body because the body of it selfe hath no sense or feeling whereby to suffer but when we speake of Christs suffering in soule we meane not that which the soule suffereth by the body but whereby it suffereth properly and immediately in it selfe For inasmuch as it was a part of punishment due to our sinnes to suffer in this sort therefore we beleeue that Christ taking vpon him to suffer for vs did suffer in the same fort Because c Hieron vt supra Quod nos pro nostris debebamus sceleribus sustinere ille pro nobis passus est he suffered for vs what we ought tesuffer for our owne sinnes And accordingly doth the Prophet say of him d Esa 53.10 He shall giue his soule an offering for sinne which he verifieth in the Gospell when yet there was no passion but of the soule e Matt. 26.38 My soule is heauy euen vnto the death Wee beleeue therefore that not in body onely but in soule also Christ f 2. Cor. 5.21 was made sinne for vs that not in body only but also in soule g Gal. 3.13 he was made a curse for vs to deliuer vs from the curse h Ambros in Orat. con Auxent ep li. 5. Non maledictus ille sed in te maledictus not accursed himselfe but accursed in vs as saith Saint Ambrose blessed in i August cont Faust. Manith l. 14. c. 6. Benedictus in sua iustitia maledictus autē propter peccata nostra cap. 7. Maledictum eum dixit ex cōditi ne poenae nostrae ex qua in ligno suspensus est his owne righteosnesse but accursed for our sinnes and by condition of our punishment wherby he was hanged vpon the tree Now in that he according to his humane spirit and soule k Amb. vt supr Maledista nostra suscepit tooke vpon him our maledictions and curses it followeth that the effects of those maledictions tooke place in his soule horror anguish vexation astonishment wrastling with dispaire with hell death damnation and the whole power of darkenesse and whatsoeuer else may be reckoned in the vnknowen sorrowes of Christ as the Greekes tearmed them in their Litany For putting himselfe into our place and condition he stood liable to all that was due to vs and therefore l Hilar. in Psal 68 Vsque ad mortis profundae descendit omnis in eum terror desaeuientis in nos tempestatis inculuit he descended into the depths of death and all the terrour of that tempest that raged against vs lighted vpon him Therefore doth Saint Peter attribute vnto his passion m Act. 2.24 the sorrowes of death that is to say the sorowes that appertaine to death of which Dauid by Prophecy bringeth him in complaining n Psal 18.4 The paines of hell came about me the snares of death ouertooke mee o Psal 69.1 Saue me O God for the waters are come in euen vnto my soule I sticke fast in the deepe mire where no ground is I am come into deepe waters and the streames runne ouer me Whereof he praieth anon after p ve 15. Let not the water floud drowneme neither let the deepe swallow me vp and let not the pit shut his mouth vpon mee What are these floods this deepe this pit wherat he standeth thus as it were amated as fearing therby to be swallowed vp Surely the Prophet foresaw herein more then bodily passion euen a sea of spirituall afflictions hell and destruction opening her mouth wide at him and threatning to deuoure him the wrath of God his indignation furiously marching against him to require of him as who had vndertaken it the full recompense and satisfaction for our sinnes In respect whereof the Prophet saith q Esay 53.10 The Lord would breake him r v. 6. the Lord hath laid our iniquities vpon him as to note that we are not to consider only what was done by men but to behold God himselfe also wreaking his anger vpon him braying him as it were in a morter and beating him in pieces as the Hebrew word importeth Therefore Athanasius saith that the Prophet Dauid in another Psalme saith ſ Athanasale interpret Psal Dicit ex persona eius In me constitutus est furor tuus c. Iram contra nos conteptam ob praeuaricationem in se sustinuit in the person of Christ Thy wrath is bent against me because saith he he did beare in himselfe the wrath that was conceiued against vs for sinne We read the words t Psal 88.6 vulgat 87. Thine indignation lieth hard vpon mee and thou hast vexed me with all thy stormes Which Hierome in like sort applieth to Christ in this sort u Hieron in Psal 87. Iram procellam macellationis suroris tui quas in gentibus effusurus eras super me induxisti qui peccata corum suscepi Thou hast brought vpon me the wrath and storme of thy fury which thou shouldest haue powred foorth vpon the nations because I haue taken vpon me their sinnes Againe in the Psalme it followeth Lord why reiectest thou my soule and hidest thou thy face from me Thine indignations goe ouer mee and the feare of thee hath vndone me They come about me daily like water and compasse mee together on euery side that is as Lyra saith x Lyra in eund Psal sicut aqua tangit intrantem ipsam Circumquaque ita punitiones tuae tegiterunt me in anima corpore As the water on euery side toucheth him that entreth into it so thy punishments haue touched me both in soule and body Now these things duely considered which are hitherto set downe it will easily appeare that the speeches of Caluin and the rest heere mentioned truly reported are so farre from blasphemy as that they lay before vs a most firm and sure foundation of Christian hope In the first place Caluin hauing affirmed that Christ did not onely giue his body to be a price of our attonement with God but that in his soule also he suffered the punishments due to vs and that they are too sottish who setting a side this part of our redemption doe stand onely vpon the outward punishment
of eternall death We professe so much and denie it not because there is no conquest without battell and therefore Christ hauing k Col. 2.15 spoiled principalities and powers and triumphed ouer them must needs bee supposed to haue had encounter and combate with them There followeth in Caluins next words the sentence of the Prophet that l Esay 53.5 the chastisement of our peace was laied vpon him that hee was wounded for our transgressions and broken for our iniquities Hereby he saith is giuen to vnderstand that he was put in the place and steed of wicked men as a surety or a hostage yea and as if he had been himselfe a partie guiltie to make good and to paie all the punishments that were to be required of them this onely excepted that he could not be holden of the sorrowes of death By and by after hee saith that wee are to know that not onely the body of Christ was giuen for a price of redemption but that it was a greater and more excellent price that he suffered in soule the cruell tortures that belong to man damned and cast away In which words if wee consider what hath beene before said we shall peceiue that there is nothing said amisse For what is there in damnation it selfe greater then the vndergoing of Gods curse what are all the torments thereof but the effects of the same curse and if Christ haue borne the curse that was due to vs if the wrath of God that should haue beene powred vpon vs were laid vpon him if he haue suffered for vs that that we should haue suffered for our selues as hath beene before said out of Athanasius Ambrose and Hierome why doth it seeme strange that Christ should be said to suffer for vs the tortures of damnation If m Athanas de passione cruce dom Amaritiemirae ex praeuaricationem legis obortam in quae omnes detinebat accipiens absumpsit euacuauit he tooke the bitternesse of the wrath that rose by the transgression of the Law and made it voide as Athanasius againe saith if all the terror thereof did fall vpon him that should haue befallen to vs as Hilary before hath said then Caluin hath said nothing but trueth that hee made good and paied all the penalties and punishments that were to be required of vs. I say not that he suffered all precisely in qualitie and kinde but in quantitie and measure I say with Caluin all that should haue beene required of vs. And therefore albeit wee affirme that Christ suffered the very anguish of hell yet we doe not thereby condemne him to the very pit of hell it selfe as M. Bishop wrangleth because it was the suffering it selfe not the place of suffering whereby satisfaction was to be made to God Now then taking it as wee say it is no blasphemie to say that hee that came to redeeme vs from hell did suffer for vs the paines of hell because hee was therefore to suffer the same for vs that he might redeeme vs therefrom Yea what a silly collection of blasphemie hee hath heere made will plainly appeare by a little change of words because it is all one as if he should haue said What greater blasphemie can be inuented then to condemne the Lord of life that came to redeeme vs from death euen to the very suffering of death it selfe As for that which hee saith of Christs being heereby made the companion of Iudas the traitour I passe it by as the speech of a wicked wretch who out of the poison of a malicious and wicked heart dareth of his owne wretched collection to say what hee list dishonorable to the Sonne of God From Caluin he coÌ„meth to Beza albeit in the first point hee mistaketh Beza for Caluin for Beza in the place by him cited hath not the words which he alleageth Caluin hath them indeed but so as that M. Bishop I trow will blush if at least he can blush when he shall heare in what sort he hath them He maketh a question or obiection in these words n Calu. in Mat. 27.46 sed absurdum videtur Christo elapsam esse desperationis vocem solutio facilis est quanquam sensus carnis exitium apprehenderet fixam tameÌ„ sletisse fidem in cius corde qua deum praesenteÌ„ intuitus est de cuius absentia conqueritur But it seemeth absurd that from Christ should slippe or escape a speech of despaire Hereto he saith The answer is easie that albeit the sense and feeling of the flesh apprehended destrustion yet his faith abode stedfast in his heart whereby he beheld God present with him of whose absence he complaineth By and by he saith againe o Ibid. In hoc diro cruciatu illaesa fuit eius fides ita vt relictum se deplorans propinquo tamen dei auxilio confideret Cum desperatione luclatus est non fuit tamen victus neque enim qui desperati sunt possunt deum appâ—llare suum Cum dicit Deus meus triumphum agit de tentatione In all this cruell torture his faith was vntouched so as that crying out that he was forsaken yet he trusted to Gods helpe as hard at hand He wrestled with despaire but was not ouercome for they who are desperate can not call God their God When he saith My God he triumpheth ouer that temptation Marke I pray thee gentle Reader how whilest hee tendereth thee an obiection in steed of a resolution hee seeketh to abuse thee with a shamefull vntruth affirming of Caluin though vnder Beza his name that he saith that Christ despaired whereas Caluins words are expressy to the contrarie that his faith was still inuiolate and continued firme and stedfast in his heart And euen as impudently doth hee behaue himselfe in the next words for Beza hath no such as he allegeth no not in any of the places by him cited that Christ was ouerwhelmed or adiudged to the flames of hell He doth not say that Christ was buried drowned in the bottom of the infernal gulf His words are that p Beza Annot. noui Testam Heb. 5.7 Quum iâ—â— se derelictum vociferatur cogitemus animum noniam in cogitatione metu impendentis mali prorsus eccupatum sed in profundo summae calamitatis gurgite sepultum qui ad emergendum maxima cum difficultate luctetur wheÌ„ Christ crieth out that he is forsaken we are to conceiue his minde not now occupied with the conceite or feare of euill at hand Christ how termed a sinner but euen buried in the deepe gulfe of extreme calamity so as that with great difficulty he wrestieth or striueth to swimme out Where are the flames of hell M. Bishop where is the infernall gulfe for shame man leaue this lying this grosse lying lest the liers meed befall you that no man beleeue you when you say truth Luthers words haue their christian godly meaning if a maleuolent minde haue not the construing of them I haue
our confidence in them which we are to put in God onely and not increatures of which notwithstanding the Church consisteth Which exposition wee acknowledge conteineth the very trueth agreeable to Gods word and doe wish that they would alwaies continue constant therein But they doe heerein as their vsuall maner is what by euidence of truth they are forced to say in one place for the maintenance of their owne traditions and superstitions they vnsay it or qualifie it in another And in this sort M. Bishop heere dealeth who first inclining somewhat to that construction alreadie mentioned and telling vs that to beleeue in a thing is to make it our Creatour by giuing our whole heart vnto it alleageth notwithstanding that some ancient Doctours take the words to beleeue in not so precisely but say that wee may beleeue in the church and in Saints heereby to make way to his absurd conceits which none of the ancient Doctours dreamed of it is true indeed that Epiphanius and Cyril haue vsed that maner of speech by adding the preposition in to the rest of the articles I beleeue in one holy Catholike church in one Baptisme in the remission of sinnes in the resurrection of the body in the life eternal but yet making thereof no other construction than we do as if the article were away To beleeue in the church was with them as M. Bishop saith to beleeue certainly in the Catholike church to be the onely true company of Christians and thereof we contend not wee beleeue the same as well as they though not in M. Bishops meaning which neuer was any part of their meaning that the Catholike church should be meant in any speciall maner of the church of Rome But whereas he addeth it is another part of their construction that to the lawfull gouernours thereof that is as he intendeth to the Pope and his Cardinals and Bishops it appertaineth to declare both which bookes be Canonicall and what is the true meaning of all doubtfull places in them he verie shamefully abuseth the ancient Doctours of whom there is not one that hath noted any such matter to be conteined in the Creed If hee know any let him acquaint vs therewith if hee know none let him confesse to his Reader as he must that he hath sought to deceiue him with a lie The same I say of beleeuing in Saints for which of the ancient Doctours hath taught vs out of our Creed that we are to beleeue in them He telleth vs what they meant by it that wee beleeue the Saints in heauen to heare our praiers to be carefull to pray for vs and to be able to obteine by intreatie much at Gods hands But what a strange man is he that will tell vs what men meant by words which they neuer spake Surely to beleeue in Saints is no antiquitie but nouelty and the deuice of him who by beleeuing in Saints seeketh to draw men away from beleefe in God The Apostle telleth vs that f Rom. 10 17. Faith is by hearing and hearing by the word of God Thereupon Basil gathereth thus g Basil Ethit reg 80. Si quicquid ex fide non est peccatum est fides verò ex auditu auditus autem pâ—r verbum Dei est ergo quicquid extra diuinam Scripturam est cùm ex fide non sit peccatum est If whatsoeuer is not of faith bee sinne and faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God surely whatsoeuer is beside the Scripture of God because it is not of faith is sinne Let M. Bishop then shew vs some word of God some warrant of Scripture that it is one point of faith to beleeue in Saints or if hee cannot so doe we must rest perswaded as we are that to beleeue in Saints is to sinne against God And if we may not beleeue in Saints then neither may we pray vnto them for h Rom. 10.14 how shall they call vpon him saith the Apostle in whom they haue not beleeued And seeing praier is i Grego Moral lib. 22. cap. 13. Vera postulatio non in oris est vocibus sed in cogitationibus cordis not a matter of the lippes but of the heart how can wee beleeue that the Saints in heauen heare our praiers when as the word of God telleth vs that k 1. King 8.39 it is God only which knoweth the hearts of all the children of men Againe seeing God hath himselfe named vnto vs the Mediator by whose intrety l Mat. 3.17 Ephe. 3.12 for whose sake he wil accept vs and in whom he will be m Iohn 14.13 glorified for the granting of our requests who n Rom. 8.34 sitteth at the right hand of God and o Heb. 7.25 euer liueth to make intercession for vs how can we call it faith and not rather impudent presumption that we of our owne heads should set vp euery Saint in heauen to be a Master of requests and disturbe that order which God himselfe hath appointed for our accesse to him Admit that in generality they pray for the consummation of their brethren they pray in fellowship of loue not by authority of mediation as ioined in affection with vs not as by specialtie of fauour appointed to be patrons for vs for in that respect it is true which Saint Austin telleth vs that p August in Psam 64. Solus ibi ex his qui carnem gustaverunt interpellat pro nobis of all that haue beene partakers of flesh it is Christ onely in heauen that maketh intercession for vs. To conclude we haue heard before out of the Catechisme that our beleeuing in God requireth all our confidence and trust to be placed in God onely Accordingly Cyprian saith that q Cyprian de dupl martyr Non credit in deum qui non in eo solo collocat totius felicitatis suae fidutiam he beleeueth not in God that placeth not the confidence of all his happinesse in God onely But beleeuing in Saints cannot be vnderstood but to import putting of trust and confidence in them Therefore we cannot beleeue in Saints but with the ouerthrow of our beleefe and trust in God And that the Popish beleeuing in Saints importeth the putting of their trust and confidence in them it plainly appeareth as by other their offices of deuotion so specially by their Ladies Psalter wherein they blasphemously vse to the Virgin Marie those words whereby Dauid professed his trust in God r Psalter Mariae Psal 7. Domina in te speraui de inimicis meis libera animam meam Psal 10. In domina confido propter dulcedinem misericordiae nominis sui psal 21. Quia ego speraui in gratia tua sempiternum a me opprobrium abstulisti Psal 45. Domina refugium nostrum tu es in omni necessitate nostra Psal 53 Domina in nomine tuo saluum me fac O Lady in thee haue I hoped deliuer my soule from mine enemies I
against our religion out of the Creed which as you haue seene consisteth wholly vpon his owne forced exposition and vaine illations R. ABBOT That our profession of saith in the Creed importeth a particular application of those things which we beleeue Romission of sinnes is beleeued not wrought hath beene sufficiently declared a Sect. 3. before in the question of the certainty of saluation M. Bishop referreth his Reader to that question as hauing there iustified what he saith heere but with what face can he so doe before he hath made it appeare that he is able to defend what he hath said there What exceptions he hath vsed there the same he vseth heere he giueth them no further strength he cleereth them not from those answers whereby hath beene shewed the inualidity of them but goeth on with his cuckowes note saying ouer and ouer still one and the same thing But his adding of conditions is the destroying of the nature of true faith which when it professeth to beleeue the remission of sinnes doth therby disclaime the working of it resting vpon Gods promise b Agust in Psal 88. Non sâ—cundiâ—m merita nostra sed secundùm miserecordiam eius firma est promissio which as S. Austin saith is sure not according to our merits but according to his owne mercy c Iere. 31.34 I will forgiue their iniquities and their sinnes wil I remember no more His sacrament of penance we know not because Christ hath not taught it but the true Sacraments which Christ hath ordained are to the faithfull repentant not workes of merit whereby they purchase but seales and confirmations of Gods gift whereby hee freely bestoweth the remission of sinnes As for the keeping of Gods commandements we say with S. Iohn He that saith he knoweth him that is as Gregory Bishop of Rome expoundeth it d Gregor in Ezechiel hom 22. De fide operatione Ioannes fatetur dicens Qui dicit se nosse deum c. he that saith he beleeueth in him keepeth not his commandements is a liar and there is no truth in him e Rom. 7.12 The commandement is holy and iust and good and f Heb. 12.14 without holinesse no man shall see God But the keeping of Gods commandements is one thing according to the condition of the law another according to the precept and exhortation of the Gospell The Gospell fauourably commendeth vnto vs the keeping thereof as a fruit of faith the law strictly requireth it as the condition of eternall life The Gospell admitteth forgiuenesse of that that by humane frailty is left vndone the law is neuer satisfied vnlesse g Gal. 3.10 all be done Therefore if the beleefe of out obteining eternall life must rest vpon our workes according to the law we can neuer haue assurance of faith because we can neuer finde sufficiency and contentment in our owne works It followeth therefore that to build the faith of the Gospell vpon the workes of the Law is to confound the Law and the Gospell and to destroy the truth of faith h Rom. 4.14 If they which are of the law be heires saith the Apostle then faith is made voide and the promise is made of none effect But i v. 16. therefore it is of faith that it may be of grace and therefore k Rom. 11.6 not of workes and the promise may be sure to all the seed that is to all that beleeue according to the example of Abrahams faith Now then whereas M. Bishop saith that he beleeueth to haue life euerlasting if hee keepe the commandements that is no beleefe at all because he cannot keepe the commandements as is required for couenant of eternal life Whereas he telleth vs that he may haue a very good hope by Gods grace to performe them his owne heart telleth him that he saith vntruely because he knoweth himselfe debarred from that hope by God himselfe by whose words we are taught that l Eccles 7.22 there is not a man iust in the earth that doth good and sinneth not and that m Iames 3.2 in many things we offend all and that n Psal 143.2 in Gods sight no man liuing shall bee found righteous Therefore amidst all our keeping of Gods commandements amidst all our fightings and wrastlings against sinne we stil hold fast that confession that the iust euen the iust shall liue by faith because all our iustice in this life is maimed and halting and o August de ciu det lib. 19. cap. 27. Ipsa iustitia nostra tanta est in hac vita vt potiùs remissione peccatoruÌ„ constet quà m prefectione virtutum consisteth rather in forgiuenesse of sinnes than in perfection of vertues It remaineth therefore that true faith is the apprehension and particular application of the promise of God expecting the effect and participation thereof not for any workes of ours but for his owne mercies sake Of which faith it followeth indeed that we turne from our sinnes and conforme our will to Gods will and abide in the lap of the Catholike church but these are effects and not causes of that state of saluation which we attaine by faith onely Saint Austin therefore requiring these things doth not shake his owne assertion of particular faith whereby he teacheth a man as M. Perkins sheweth to beleeue as touching himselfe the remission of sinnes the resurrection of the body and euerlasting life As for the contradiction which M. Bishop noteth in M. PER. words it is more in his conceit than it is indeed He saith heere that the act of faith is particularly to apply he saith elsewhere that faith notwithstanding doth not alwaies attaine to a distinct application by formall proposition but that it is sometimes inuolued and inlapped in sighes and grones in desires and praiers to God which cannot be without an expectance of Gods goodnesse and mercy and yet a perplexed and trouled minde by questioning it selfe cannot see so much in it selfe He saith againe that some define faith generally to be a certaine and full perswasion which he calleth so high a reach as few can attaine vnto because as there is strong faith to perswade certainely and fully so there is also weake faith which apprehendeth and perswadeth comfortably but yet not with fulnesse and vndoubted certainty He saith nothing heere contrary to this because whether it be strong faith to apply strongly or weake faith to apply weakely yet both serue in their degree particularly to apply It is then M. Bishops want of vnderstanding heere that maketh him to mistake not M. PER. heate of quarrelling that maketh him to forget But now to shew what Saint Austins opinioÌ„ is concerning these matters of beleefe he bringeth vs two sentences the one to shew that by ordinary faith a man cannot bee certaine of his saluation the other that a man once truely iustified may afterwards finally fal away both tending to this that a man cannot be said by the
greatest Saint onely hee hath perhaps better laid hold of this treasure that is hath stronger faith than I. Now what is heere as touching equalitie of glory in the world to come Heere is a common brotherhood in this life wherein none can challenge more than other but this hindreth not but that who in this brotherhood doth the greater worke shall heereafter receiue the greater reward Albeit if Luther doe affirme equalitie of glorie what is that to the impeachment of the article of life euerlasting when as by the common iudgement of the fathers life euerlasting is that u Matt. 20.2.12.13 Aug. de Sanct. Virgin cap. 26. Hiero. cont Iouinian lib. 2. Gregor Moral lib. 4. cap. 31. penny mentioned in the Gospell which in howsoeuer great difference of worke and labour yet is indeed equall and alike to all Now albeit M. Bishop haue heere said whatsoeuer his malice could deuise and more than truth and honesty would haue said yet he would make his Reader beleeue that he hath omitted many other particularities that he might not be ouer tedious but what his other particularities are may be esteemed by those that he hath heere set downe consisting more in lies and cauils than in any matters of moment and trueth Nothing hath he said whereby it may in any sort be conceiued that either our doctrine tendeth to infidelitie or that it is without cause that we cry out against the Antichrist of Rome for corrupting the puritie of the Gospel 16. W. BISHOP First saith Master PER. it is a rule in expounding the seuerall Commandements that all vertues of the same kind are reduced to that Commandement Hence it followeth that counsels of perfection are inioined in the law and therfore prescribe no state of perfection beyond the scope of the Law Answ None of the counsels of perfection are enioyned in the tenne Commandements though for some affinitie they may be reduced to some of them For example It is commanded that I shall not steale that is to take any of my neighbours goods against his will but to giue away all my own to the poore is beyond the compasse of the law so likewise it is commanded not to commit adulterie but wee are not commanded to vow perpetuall chastitie and obedience Such offices only that are necessarily required to the performance of any Commandement are comprehended within the same but no others though some men take occasion of the Commandement to treat of the counsels of perfection R. ABBOT a Psal 19.7 The law of the Lord is a perfect law All works of perfection prescribed by the lavv and therefore prescribeth whatsoeuer is necessary to perfection It requireth b Deut. 6.5 Luk. 10.27 all the heart all the minde all the soule all the strength and because beyond all there can bee nothing more therefore there is no vertue no righteousnesse no perfection that is not commanded therby It is commanded saith M. Bishop that I shall not steale but to giue all mine owne to the poore is beyond the compasse of the law But I answer him that where it is beyond the compasse of the law there it is not a work of perfection but an act of superstition If God command it then not to do it is sin if God cōmand it not there is no piety but folly in the doing of it because God casteth it off with that reprofe c Esa 1.12 Who required these things at your hands Let M. Bishop tell vs when Christ said to the rich man in the Gospell d Luk. 18.22 Goe sell all that thou hast and giue to the poore and thou shalt haue treasure in heauen come and follow me did hee sinne or not in refusing to doe as Christ aduised him If not why doth our Sauiour except against his entring into the kingdome of heauen If he did sinne then he brake the law for e Rom. 4.15 where there is no law there is no sinne and therefore the giuing of all his goods to the poore was within the compasse of the law Hee boasted that hee had kept the law but our Sauiour Christ would discouer how farre he was from louing the Lord with all his hart which the law requireth who had so tied his heart to his worldly wealth as that hee could not finde in his heart God so requiring for the reliefe of his neighbour whom hee should loue as himselfe to void himselfe of the possession thereof To giue all that a man hath to the poore is then a worke of righteousnesse when the calling of God and the following of Christ requireth it and then it is commanded by the law To doe it when dutie to God requireth it not may wel be called a worke of supererogation but work of perfection it is none We are not commanded saith he again to vow pertuall chastitie and obedience It is true and therefore those vowes are no matters of true deuotion and religion but of rash errour and presumption Such offices onely saith he as are necessarily required to the performance of any commandement are comprehended within the same and I answer him that no offices are at all required but what are necessarie to the performance of some commandement For notwithstanding all that can be said or alleaged for aduices and counsels and howsoeuer it may be pleaded that they may seeme in some particulars rightly so called yet circumstance and occasion alwaies maketh them necessary duties and the omitting of them is either the violation of the briefe of the first table Thou shalt loue the Lord thy God with all thy heart c. or of the second Thou shalt loue thy neighbour as thy selfe there being reason of the doing of them either for the glory of God or for the edification of our brethren of which neither can be neglected without trespasse of the law 17. W. BISHOP Secondly saith M. PER. the Commandement Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image c. hath two seuerall parts the first forbiddeth the making of Images the second the adoration of them Hee concludeth out of Deuteronomy that the Images of the true Iehoua are forbidden in the Commandement and consequently the adoration of such Images Hence he will haue it to follow that to worship God in or at Images with religious worship is abominable Idolatrie Answ First if the Images of God onely be there prohibited and then worship done to them according to his owne exposition then it followeth most cleerely that there is no probibition for either making or worshipping the Images of any Saints and therefore with a very euill conscience doth he wrest the commandement against them Secondly I say though God had forbidden vs to worship Images yet doth it not follow therof that we must not worship God in or at Images For as God is euery where so may he be worshipped in all places and as wel at or before an Image as in the Church and before the communion table
we pray that we be not ouercome by the diuell by yeelding our consent to the temptation and so fall into sinne it is true indeed that so we pray but yet because wee know that God doth not so free his elect from temptation but that they are sometimes ouercome and doe consent to the temptation and fall into sinne wee vnderstand further that if God see it expedient thus to let vs fall by temptation yet he will not leaue vs to bee holden captiues therein nor suffer vs so to be tempted but that he be alwaies with vs to deliuer vs from euill that d Psal 37.24 though wee fall yet wee may rise againe whilest he supporteth vs with his hand For whereas M. Bishop saith that M. Perkins much forgetteth himselfe in saying that it is good otherwhiles to be tempted it is he indeed that much forgetteth himselfe in so blameing M. Perkins who intendeth not that temptation is good of it selfe but onely accidentally in respect of the good vse which God maketh thereof turning the poison of one sinne to be a preseruatiue against another and by falling once making a man the more warie not to fall againe And thus S. Austin by the words of the Apostle saith that e Rom. 8.28 all things to Gods elect worke together for good f Aug. de corrept grat ca. 9. Talibus diligentibus deum omnia cooperaÌ„tur in bonuÌ„ vsqueadeo prorsus omnia vt si qui corum deuiant exorbitant etiam hoc ipsum eis faciat proficere in bonum euen so altogether all things as that if any of them swarue and goe aside out of the wâ—y hee maketh that also to further their good g Bernar. de diuers ser 1. An verò ei peccata ipsa non cooperantur in bonuÌ„ qui ex eis humilior feruentior solicitior timoratior cauti or inuenitur For doe not sinnes worke for good to him saith S. Bernard who is found thereby more humble more feruent more carefull more fearefull and warie than before And thus Gregorie verie truely saith that h Greg. Moral l. 2. c. 25. Fit mira dispensatione pietatis vt vnde malignus hostis cor tentat vt interimat inde misericors conditor hoc erudiat vt viuat by the woonderfull dispensation of pietie it commeth to passe that by what the wicked enemy tempteth the heart to destroy it by the same our mercifull creatour nurtureth it to life But the concupiscences and lusts of sinne doe specially serue for this end which God hath left as an enemie within our owne berders to fight against vs for the exercising of our faith and hope that seeing our owne weakenesse and danger in our selues we may the more earnestly call vpon God and depend vpon his power that being vexed and afflicted with the temptations of sinne wee may hunger and thirst after righteousnesse so much the more that being wearied with warre we may the more long after the place of our peace and obteining through his grace the conquest and victorie we may through his mercy obteine the promise of the crowne of glory Thus God i 2. Cor. 4.6 commandeth the light to shine out of darknesse and out of euill worketh good vnto those that are his which M. Bishop also I doubt not would acknowledge but that a malicious spirit of wilfull contradiction carieth him headlong to resist apparent and knowen truth 42. W. BISHOP Finally he saith this clause Amen signifieth a speciall faith concerning all the former petitions that they shall be granted and therefore a speciall faith concerning remission of sinnes Answ It signifieth a speciall hope and confidence to obtaine them but no certaintie of faith vnlesse vpon a condition which is vncertaine that is if wee doe our parts God will not faile of his if wee doe heartily repent vs and vse the Sacrament of Penance duly wee shall assuredly obtaine remission of our sinnes R. ABBOT The Romane Catechisme in this point confirmeth that which M. Amen what it importeth in the Lords praier Perkins saith and maketh good our speciall faith expounding Amen to bee added by our Sauiour Christ a Catec Roman p. 4. cap. 17. sect 4. Cui voci illa quodammodo subiecta sententia est scito tuas auditas esse preces Habet enim vim respondentis illum qui precibus quod velit impetrarit cum bona gratia dimittentis dei Et sect 6 Intelligentes nos iam impetrasse omnia ac sentientes praesentem vim diuini auxilij illud vnà cum propheta canimus Eccâ— dominus adiuuat me c. as Gods answer to this effect Know that thy praiers are heard and that we are to vnderstand it as that wee haue obtained all our desires and feeling the present power of the helpe of God doe sing with the Prophet Behold God is my helper the Lord is the protector of my soule If I be to conceiue Amen to be Gods answer that hee hath heard the praier that I haue faithfully made vnto him then am I to beleeue that God hath forgiuen me my sinnes because that is one part of the praier which I haue made Whatsoeuer poison there is in the Romane Catechisme that M. Bishop sucketh very greedily but this acknowledgement of truth though perhaps vnwarily deliuered he can by no meanes admit As for his vncertaine condition I haue before shewed that it is the ouerthrow of Christian faith and hope which wholly withdraweth our eies from looking vpon our selues and our owne merits that we may rest wholly and only vpon the mercy and goodnesse of almighty God It may well stand with that doubting and feare which elsewhere he requireth but confidence and hope can in no sort grow vpon it 43. W. BISHOP Hitherto M. Perkins hath argued against vs out of the Lords praier now I will briefly shew how the Protestants doctrine contrarieth it I haue in my answer to his obiections touched some points already I adde that one position of their doctrine crosseth three of the first petitions I prooue it thus In euery petion we must be assured as M. Perkins holdeth or at the least haue a good hope to obtaine that wee pray for or else it booteth vs not to pray but according to the Protestants doctrine no man can be assured nay can haue any hope to obtaine the three first petitions for if originall sin do continually dwell in vs and infect all our actions with deadly sinne as they teach Gods name cannot be sanctified in vs that are infected with such an vnclean leprosie neither secondly can God raigne as a King in vs if sinne possesse and command all our members and thirdly Gods will cannot bee done by vs on earth as it is done in heauen if wee cannot keepe his lawes and commandements which they in heauen doe wherefore the Protestants haue no assurance to obtaine the three first petitions who are by their teachers assured that they are not to bee
condition of fraile and sinfull flesh Now because no part of this could be imported in that memoriall if it were a thankesgiuing for the Saints therefore whether M. Higgons will or not it must necessarily be taken to haue been a praier for them And heereof there is one argument more in the last part of the comparison when he saith of Christ that he is in heauen and of the Saints that they are in the earth by their bodies yet resting in the earth Where it hath some reason that they should say We pray for them as respecting that their bodies lie yet in the dust of the earth expecting a blessed and happy resurrection which we craue to bee reuealed vpon them but to say that they meant to giue thanks to God for that the bodies of the Saints lie buried in the earth it were senslesse and absurd And because it is confirmed vnto vs by the Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy that the Church did pray for the dead in respect of the resurrection therefore wee cannot doubt but that the memoriall heere spoken of by Epiphanius vsed for the Saints in respect of their bodies in the earth was a praier for them to wish their full and perfect consummation by the resurrection from the dead My former conclusion therefore hence deduced standeth good that sith the ancient Church thus praied for the Saints and Martyrs therefore that certaine it is they did not pray vnto them And because they thus praied for the Saints whose soules they were assured were in heauen therefore they praied for the dead without respect of Purgatory which now is made the onely ground and reason of praier for the dead 38. The next matter for which he questioneth me is concerning the opinion of the Greeke churches as touching Purgatory and prayer for the dead My words are such as might haue serued to weaken his motiue had hee not beene resolued without any motiue to remooue and run away What could he haue better to resolue him then that which I say that the Papists themselues confesse that Purgatory was not receiued or beleeued in the Greeke Churches and therefore that it is certaine that they had no respect of Purgatory in their praier for the dead I did not onely say that the Papists confesse it but I cited the places of their confession Alfonsus De Castro saith k Alfons De Castro adu haeres lib. 8. tit de Indulgent In antiquis scriptoribus de Purgatorio feré nulla mentio potissimum apud Graecos Scriptores quae de causa vsque in hodiernum diem purgatorium non est a Graecis creditum Of Purgatory there is in a maner no mention at all with the ancients but specially with the Greeke writers for which cause Purgatory is not beleeued of the Greekes vntill this day Yea not of the Greekes only but of the Armenians also he acknowledgeth that l Ibid lib. 12. de purgatorio vnus ex notissimis erroribus Graecorum Armeniorum est quo docent nullum esse Purgatorium c. they teach there is no Purgatory calling it an errour well knowen concerning them both The words of Roffensis their great and holy Martyr I cited out of Polydore Virgil m Polyd. Virg. de inuent rer lib. 8. cap. 1. ex Roffensi De Purgatorio apud priscos nulla vel quà m rarissima fiebat mentio sed Graecis ad hunc vsque diem non est creditum esse Of Purgatory there was none or very rare mention made amongst the ancient Fathers yea and with the Greekes it is not beleeued till this day Thus did they ingenuously acknowledge as the truth is and did it nothing stagger M. Higgons to finde this so plainly acknowledged Did it make him nothing doubt of his imagined mutuall dependance of Purgatory and praier for the dead Surely he was a very voluntary conuert or else he might easily haue seene that it is no good connexion to say They praied for the dead therefore they beleeued Purgatory but rather they beleeued not Purgatory therefore they praied not for the dead in any such meaning as the Papists now doe He might haue remembred that which I told Doct. Bishop that many amongst vs of custome and of humane affection of loue doe vse many times words of praier for the dead who notwithstanding from the bottome of their hearts doe vtterly defie both Purgatory and the Pope 39. In another place hee saith that it is n Book 1. part 2. cap. 3. ¶ 4. num 2. to our great disreputation that I name the Albigenses as professours of the same faith and religion which we now prefesse But why Forsooth he knoweth no cause himselfe but referreth his Reader to Parsons the Iesuit in his treatise of the three conuersions of England Yea M. Higgons would you make Parsons his narration a motiue of your recantation Would you giue heed to him whom you knew by the testimony of his owne fellows to be a man of Belial an infamous wretch a meere politizing Atheist and therefore likely if it were to serue his turne to deale with the stories of the ancient Christian Martyrs as he hath done with M. Foxes story carying himselfe in all that worke like a very Porphyrie or Iulian applauding himselfe and seeking to bee applauded in a iollity of forcing all things euen against the haire to scorne and mockery You say the Albigenses in their opinions followed the Waldenses as indeed they were the same some part of them onely being so called of the towne wherein they dwelt and would you beleeue Parsons concerning the opinions of the Waldenses who o Exam. of Fox his calen cap. 3. num 13. Of these Waldēses see at large Simon Goulart Catalog test veritatis lib. 15. Where thou shalt see how leaudly Parsons hath dealt with them disclaimeth Aeneas Syluius who was afterwards Bishop of Rome testifying their faith and doctrine vprightly and faithfully as of his owne knowledge that so he may giue way to other either carelesse or malicious reporters who impiously fathered vpon them strange paradoxes in no other sort than Friar p Edm. Campi decem rat cap. 8. passim Campian lately dealt with vs Yea and is not ashamed to cite q Three Conuers pag. 2. c. 10. num 29. Prateolus and Sanders for witnesses thereof whose ioy it hath been to finde out any thing were it neuer so vntrue which they might report opprobrious and disgracefull to them I doubt not but that the Waldenses and Albigenses might happily in some things be otherwise minded than we be and what are they in the church of Rome all in all things of one and the same minde but if wee respect the substance of their faith and doctrine as we may discerne the same not only by r Aeneas Sylu. de Origen Bohem cap. 35. Aeneas Syluius but also by ſ Alfons adu haeres passim Alfonsus De Castro and specially by t Sleidan Comment lib. 16.
good by the touchstone because no exposition or sense of Scripture is to be admitted the doctrine whereof is not to be iustified by other Scripture and they that bring other senses and meanings do but deceiue men and leade them into errour as other heretikes formerly haue done and as the Papists now doe abusing the Scriptures to draw others after them into destruction Heereof also enough hath beene said g Of Traditions sect 21. before whereof I wish the Reader duely to consider for his satisfaction in this point That which he saith of other ancient Creeds and Confessions of faith that they containe not all points of Christian doctrine I eaily admit but yet let him vnderstand that it is a maine preiudice against them that neither any ancient Creed nor any exposition of the Creed or confession of faith conteineth sundry pointes which they now make to be matters of the meaning of the Creede Let him shew that euer any ancient Creed or expositour of the Creed did vnderstand or deliuer that the name of the Catholike church in the Creed hath any speciall reference to the Church of Rome that the Catholike church is to be defined as they now define it by being subiect to the bishop of Rome that the certaine declaration of the Canonicall bookes and of the true sense of Scripture is alwaies infallibly to be expected from the sentence of that Church that all Christians are fully to beleeue and wholly to relie vpon that Church for resolution of all points of faith necessarie to saluation Which and such other points made by them matters of the Creed because neuer any ancient writer hath found to be conteined or intended in the Creed therefore we iustly affirme them to be new Creed-makers coiners of new articles of faith and thereby peruerters and corrupters of the true Christian faith As concerning the Articles mentioned by M. Perkins now holden by the Romish Church that the Pope is Christs Vicar and head of the Catholike Church that there is a purgatorie fire after this life that images of God and of Saints are to be worshipped that praier is to be made to Saints departed and their intercession to bee required that there is a propitiatorie sacrifice daily offered in the Masse for the sinnes of quicke and dead M. Bishop answereth that the Fathers haue most plainly taught them in their writings and expresly condemned of heresie most of the contrary positions But what Fathers are they and in what writings haue they so done Surely if the Bishop of Rome in the ancient Church had beene taken to bee the Vicar of Christ and head of the Catholike church it cannot be but that we should haue very currant and frequent and memorable testimonie thereof as a matter vniuersally receiued and euery where practised But now let M. Bishop shew vs one let him shew so much as one that for diuers hundreds of yeeres after Christ did euer dreame of any such thing Which though indeed he cannot doe yet hee telleth vs of that and the rest that in those seuerall questions he hath before prooued what he saith whereas hee hath not spoken of any more of these points saue onely one and in that one point cannot be said to haue prooued any thing because whatsoeuer hee hath said standeth hitherto reprooued And surely if he haue no better proofes than hitherto he hath brought in all the questions that hee hath handled the Protestants will but scorne him as a very vnproouing disputer and aduise him to bestow his time a while longer in the Schooles to know what it is to prooue 3. W. BISHOP Touching beleeuing in the Church which he thrusteth in by the way we vse not that phrase as the very Creed sheweth following therein S. Augustine with others who hold that to beleeue in a thing is to make it our Creatour by giuing our whole heart vnto it in which sense we beleeue not in Saints nor in the Church albeit some other ancient Doctors take the words to beleeue in not so precisely but say that we may beleeue in the Church and in Saints that is beleeue certainly that the Catholike church is the onely true company of Christians and that to the lawfull gouernours thereof it appeâ—taineth to declare both which bookes be Canonicall and what is the true meaning of all doubtfull places in them so we beleeue the Saints in heauen to heare our prayers to be carefull to pray for vs and to bee able to obtaine by intreaty much at Gods hands in whose high fauour they liue Thus much in answer vnto that which M. PERKINS obiecteth in generall Now to that he saith in particular R. ABBOT a Greg. Nazia de sp sancto orat 6. Sâ—â—reatuÌ„ est quo pacto in ipsum eredimu c. Non enim idem est in aliquem credere de eo credere nam illud diuimt atis est hoc cuiusuis rei It is one thing saith Gregory Nazianzene to beleeue in any one another to beleeue of or concerning him the one belongeth to the Godhead the other is vsed of euery thing And heereby hee prooueth that the holy Ghost is God because wee beleeue in the holy Ghost By which argument our Sauiour Christ also teacheth vs to acknowledge him to be God when he saith b Ioh. 14.1 Yee beleeue in God beleeue also in me where c Hilar. de Trin. lib. 9. Vniens se fidei dei naturae eius vniuit c. deumse per id docens cum in eum credendum sit ab his qui in deum credant vniting himselfe to the beleefe of God saith Hilarie he vniteth himselfe also to his nature thereby teaching that he himselfe is God for that they who beleeue in God must beleeue in him I might further enlarge this point by the testimonies and expositions of d Aug. in Ioan. tract 29. de ciu dei l. 18. ca. 54. Euseb Emissen Ruffin Venant in symbol Apost Austin Eusebius Emissenus Ruffinus Venantius and others who all acknowledge that that phrase belongeth to God and is not to bee applied to any creature But it shall not neede because the Elucidatour of the Romane Catechisme according to the doctrine of the Catechisme it self as he pretendeth though quite contrary both to their doctrine and practise otherwise doth tell vs that e Elucidat Catech Roman c. 9. q. 5. Cùm dicimus nos credere in deum patrem in filium in sp sanctum phrasis haec loquendi significat nos ita credere deum patrem filium spiritu sanctuÌ„ vt etiam in eis omnem fiduciam nostram collocemus quam in deo solo non autem in creaturis ponere possumus ex quibus tamen ecclesia composita est when wee say wee beleeue in God the Father in the Sonne in the holy Ghost this phrase of speaking doth signifie that wee so beleeue God the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost as that also we place all