which the Holy Ghost has put in their Hearts with the Creed is not now in debate and 't is sufficient that we have seen in all the Baptiz'd a Belief of the Church which comes to them from GOD distinguisht from the Thought which comes to them from Men. This being so I affirm That to this Belief of the Church which the Holy Ghost puts in our Hearts with the Creed is fixt a firm Faith That we must believe this Church as certainly as the Holy Ghost to whom the Creed it self immediately joins her and that this Faith in the Church is the Cause the Believer never doubts of the Scripture I stopt a moment to ask whether I were understood Mr. Claude answer'd That he understood me perfectly And if it be so said I to him you ought to see the Inconvenience into which your Belief casts you and you ought also to see That I am not in the same by mine You not only say That we must not believe a false Church but that we must not even believe the true one without examining what she says and in this you speak against all other Christians Mademoiselle de Duras interpos'd saying in this place This is what must be answer'd by Ay or No. I said it indeed answer'd Mr. Claude and I did not stick to say it at first So much the better reply'd I. We shall soon see which of us two has Reason and in the clear State things have been put in by our reciprocal Discourses the Truth will soon appear on one side or other From the time you lay it down for certain That the Church even the true one may deceive us the Faithful cannot believe on the Churches sole Faith That the Scripture is the Word of GOD. He may believe it with an human Faith answer'd Mr. Claude but not with a divine Faith But human Faith reply'd I is always defective and doubting He doubts then whether the Scripture be inspir'd by GOD or no. Mr. Claude here pray'd me to remember what he had already said That he was not in Doubt but in Ignorance As a Man said he not skill'd in Diamonds being shewn one and askt whether he believes it to be good or bad knows nothing of it neither is he in Doubt but in Ignorance In like manner when a Master teaches some Opinion in Philosophy the Scholar who understands not yet what he means has no formal Doubt but is in a bare Ignorance So is it with those to whom the Holy Scripture is the first time given And I said I affirm That he doubts and that he who is not skill'd in Diamonds doubts whether that which is presented to him be good or bad and that the Scholar with Reason doubts of all his Master in Philosophy tells him till he sees it clear because he believes not his Master Infallible and by the same Reason he who believes not the Church Infallible doubts of the Truth of GODs Word which she proposes to him This is call'd Ignorance and not Doubt still said Mr. Claude And I made this Argument To doubt is not to know whether a thing be or not The Christian of whom we speak knows not whether the Scripture be true or no He is then in Doubt Tell me what is it to doubt but not to know whether a thing be or no To this there was no Answer but that this Christian did not in any manner doubt of the Scripture but was only ignorant of it But said I he is not like an Infidel who perhaps never heard any mention of it He knows That the Gospel of St. Matthew and St. Paul's Epistles are read in the Church as GODs Word and that none of the Faithful doubt it Can he believe with them as certainly as he believes GOD is That this Word is inspir'd by GOD You have said That he cannot make this Act of Faith He that cannot make an Act of Faith on an Article propos'd to him makes at least as I may so say an Act of Doubt Mr. Claude still answer'd That he was in a pure Ignorance And well let us leave contesting about Words He does not Doubt if you please but he knows not whether this Scripture be a Truth or a Fable he knows not whether the Gospel be an History inspir'd by GOD or a Tale invented by Men. He cannot then make an Act of Divine Faith upon this Point nor say I believe as GOD is that the Gospel is also from GOD. Do you not acknowledg That he cannot make this Act and that he has nothing but an human Faith He again freely confess'd That he knew nothing else Well Sir 't is enough In fine then there is a Point of Time when every Baptiz'd Christian knows not whether the Gospel be not a Fable This is given him to examin See to what we must come when we are set to examin after the Church We might discourse without end But we have said all that can be said on both sides and we should do nothing but begin again 'T is for every one to examin in his Conscience how he can maintain That a Baptiz'd Christian ought to have been a Moment without knowing whether the Gospel be a Truth or a Fable and that amongst other Questions which one may make in ones Life this also must be given him to examin It appear'd to me by the Countenance of Mademoiselle de Dwas that she understood 〈◊〉 I notwithstanding expected a little And Mr. Claude rose up Mademoiselle de Duras rose with us and coming to us said I could wish That before you broke up something might be said concerning the Separation The thing is done answer'd I. As soon as 't is certain That one cannot examin after the Church without falling into an insupportable Pride noâ— without doubting of the Gospel there is nothing more to be 〈◊〉 Every one need only consider whether he will doubt one Moment of the Gospel and also whether he finds himself capable to understand the Scripture better than all the Synods in the World and than all the rest of the Universal Church But since Mademoiselle desires some particular Instruction concerning the Separation I beseech you Sir give me a Moment more I shall propose to you essential Facts on which â—f I be not deceiv'd you must soon agree I ask you Sir Whether the Arians separated from the Church and whether their Sect when it appear'd was not new They did not said he separate from the Church they corrupted it He set himself to represent with a great deal of Exaggeration â—ow they drew with them the whole Church 'T is not so Sir said I You know That St. Athanasius St. Basil St. Gregory Nazianzen and many other Holy Bishops held for the Truth and that a great Body of People follow'd them You know That all the West and Rome it self notwithstanding the Fall of Liberius was Orthodox But let us leave all this said I to him in what Number soever they separated
whether dispers'd or re-united whether always subsisting or sometimes wholly extinct shall clearly find according to his Principles without any need of the Ministery all necessary Aliments For also of what use is a Ministery to them in which Error prevail And would not the Scripture alone be more commodious and more instructive to them This is what the 〈◊〉 should say to avoid the Inconveniences into which we cast them But Mr. Claude neither durst nor ever will dare to do it because he would find in it Inconveniences yet more insupportable and more visible 'T is in a word because he sound that by pushing the Authority and sufficiency as I may say of the Scripture independently of all Ecclesiastical Ministery they must at last destroy the Scripture it self In effect Rom. 1. ◠10. he found in the Scripture that the Scripture ought not to be Vid. Sup. p. 50. as the Philosophy of 〈◊〉 the Rule of 〈◊〉 Republick in Idea but of a People always subsisting which this Scripture calls the Church He has found that this People ought to be always visible on the earth since they ought not only to believe with the Heart but also to confes◠with the Mouth and to use his Terms make Profession of the Christian Truth He has found that the Scripture was entrusted in the hands of such a People to be their unchangeable Rule that there should be always Interpreters establisht by GOD the Author of this Scripture as well as the Founder of this People and that so the Ministery destin'd by GOD to this Interpretation was as eternal as the Church it self If he writ these great Words GOD always preserves in the publick Ministery all that is necessary for the guiding true Believers to Salvation Man Ans 4. q. he cannot found this Assurance on any human Industry Let GOD leave the Ecclesiastical Ministery to it self it must fall If then it be certain that GOD will always keep there all that is necessary to Salvation GOD himself must have promis'd it and the Eternity of the Ministery cannot be founded but on this Promise Mr. Claude also finds it in those Words Thou art Peter Matt. xvi v. 18. and the rest 'T is thence he concludes with us that JESUS CHRIST in speaking to a Church that confesses and confesses without difficulty by her principal Ministers since 't is by St. Peter in the Name of the Apostles to a Church joyn'd to an exterior Ministery and using the Power of the Keys has promis'd her that Hell should not prevail against her consequently supported by this Ministery and therefore he affirms that GOD preserves always in the publick Ministery all that is necessary to the Salvation of GODs Children Another Promise of JESUS CHRIST's Matt. xxviii v. 19 20. directed to those that baptize and those that teach and concluded by these powerful Words And lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World makes Mr. Claude as well as us say that JESUS CHRIST promises the Church to be with her Ibid. to baptize with her and to teach with her without interruption even to the end of the World Thus according to this Minister this Promise regards the Church as joyn'd to the Ecclesiastical Ministery which makes him also conclude that JESUS CHRIST promises the Corruption shall never be such in the Ministery but that there shall still be enough to entertain the true Faith of his Elect even to the end of the World In fine Eph. iv Man Ans Ibid. a third Passage to wit that of St. Paul to the Ephefians makes him conclude with us that the Ministery shall last even to the end of the World and continue in a degree and in an Estate sufficient to edify the Body of CHRIST and bring all the Elect to the Perfection of which St. Paul speaks GOD then must concern himself with it without whose Assistances continually present neither such a Stability nor such an Integrity can be expected in the Ministery After he had thus begun to believe he should have finish◠the Work and given Glory to GOD even to the end Mr. Claude was not far from the Kingdom of GOD when he said that GOD would render himself superior enough over human Infirmity to preserve always manger the Efforts of Hell a Church which should confess the Truth and an exterior Ministery which should furnish true Believers with the Aliments necessary to Salvation He ought then to proceed to the end and believe that the same Hand which would hinder Hell from prevailing so far against the Ministery as to deprive it of these necessary Aliments would hinder it also from prevailing so far as to make any Error have dominion in it and that so much the rather as what he believ'd manifestly comprehends what is left to believe For if he believ'd on the Faith of the Divine Promise that there should be always a Church with which JESUS CHRIST would not cease to teach that is without difficulty that he would not cease to teach with the Doctors of this Church he ought by the same means to believe that he would teach there all Truth JESVS CHRIST not being come Joh. xvi v. 13. nor having sent his Holy Spirit to his Apostles to teach them some Truths but to teach them all Truth as himself declares in his Gospel Nor would it be to any purpose to say that Mr. Claude Promises in the Ministery only sufficient Aliments which can comprehend no more than the Fundamentals of the Faith as our Reformed find them amongst the Lutherans For JESVS CHRISTs Doctrin containing nothing but what is profitable Is 48. v. 17. agreeably to this Word I am the Lord which teacheth thee profitable things if we find not in the Ministery JESVS CHRISTs Doctrin entire we shall never find that Degree requir'd by Mr. Claude nor that Estate sufficient to bring all the Elect to the Perfection of which St. Paul speaks 'T would be then something to believe that by the Promise GOD would always keep without interruption in the Ministery all essential Truths for 't would be to acknowledge in the Church with which JESUS CHRIST teaches a beginning of infallible Authority by acknowledging this Authority at least in respect of the first Truths of Christianity But to finish the Work and not to believe by halves we must also believe that JESUS CHRIST in teaching teaches all and confess in his Church an absolute Infallibility Thus we must not say with the Ministers and their incredulous Flock This Ecclesiastical Ministery is of men subject to fall one may doubt after them for this would be to yield to the Temptation and no longer to believe the Promise We must say 't is of men with whom JESUS CHRIST promises to be and teach always then manger human weakness and all the Endeavours of Hell Rom. iv v. 18. against hope we believe in hope that we shall find eternally in their common
CHRIST would have her alwaies visibly subsist he has cloth'd her with sensible Marks which are always to continue For see how he sends his Apostles and what he says to 'em at his ascending into Heaven Go ye therefore and teach all Nations Matt. xxviii v. 19 20. baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you And lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World Teaching with you baptizing with you instructing with you my Faithful to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded consequently exercising with you in my Church an exterior Ministery 'T is with you 'T is with those who shall succeed you 'T is with the Society assembled under their Conduct that I shall be from this present even to the Consummation of the World alway without Interruption For there shall not be any one Moment in which I will leave you but thô absent in Body I will be always present by my Holy Spirit In Consequence of this Word St. Paul also tells us that the Ecclesiastical Ministery shall last without any Discontinuance till the general Resurrection He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all Heavens Eph. iv v. 10 11 12 13. that he might fill all things And he gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the Work of the Ministry for the Edifying of the Body of CHRIST Till we all come in the Vnity of the Faith and of the Knowledge of the Son of GOD unto a perfect Man unto the measure of the Stature of the fulness of CHRIST That is to say till we have attain'd the Perfection of JESUS CHRIST glorify'd in Body and Soul This is the Term which GOD has set to the Ecclesiastical Ministery The Pretended Reformed will not have the visible Church to be that which is call'd JESUS CHRISTs Body Which is then that Body where GOD has establish'd some Apostles some Prophets and some Pastors and Teachers Which is that Body where GOD has plac'd several Members and different Graces Rom. xii v. 4 c. The Grace of Ministery the Grace of Teaching the Grace of Exhortation and Consolation the Grace of Ruling Which I say is that Body if it be not the visible Church But that which makes the Pretended Reformed unwilling to acknowledge that the Body of JESUS CHRIST so much recommended in the Scripture can be the visible Church is their being constrain'd to say that the visible Church sometimes ceases to be upon the Earth and they have an Horror to say that JESUS CHRISTs Body is not always for fear of putting JESUS CHRIST once again to death 'T is then without Difficulty this Assembly of Pastors and People 't is this Church compos'd of so many divers Members by whom so many Holy Ministeries are exteriorly exercis'd 't is this that is called JESUS CHRISTs Body 't was to this Body assembled under the Ministery of Pastors that he said at his ascending into Heaven Lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World He then that descended is the same that ascended to the end he might fill all things Heaven by his Person and his visible Presence Earth by his Spirit and his invisible Assistance both the one and the other by his Truth and his Word And 't was for to continue at his ascent into Heaven this Assistance promis'd to his Church that he plac'd some Apostles some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers A thing which must last till such time as the Work of GOD is entirely accomplish'd till we are all perfect Men and till the whole Body of the Church be arriv'd at the Fulness and Perfection of JESUS CHRIST Thus JESUS CHRISTs Work is eternal on the Earth The Church founded on the Confession of the Faith shall always be and always confess the Faith Her Ministery shall be eternal She shall bind and loose even to the end of the World Hell never being able to hinder her she shall never discontinue the Teaching of Nations The Sacraments that is the exterior Liveries with which she is clad shall last for ever Teach and baptize the Nations 1. Cor. xi v. 26. and I shall be alway with you As often as ye eat this Bread and drink this Cup ye do shew the Lords Death till he come With the Supper shall last the Confession of the Faith the Ecclesiastical Ministery and the exterior and interior Communion of the Faithful with JESUS CHRIST and of the Faithful amongst themselves till such time as JESUS CHRIST comes The duration of the Church and of the Ecclesiastical Ministery has no other Limits 'T is not then only the Society of the Predestinate that shall subsist for ever 't is the visible Body in which the Predestinate are included which preaches to them which teaches them which regenerates them by Baptism which nourishes them by the Eucharist which administers to them the Keys which governs them and keeps them united under Discipline which forms JESUS CHRIST in them 'T is this visible Body that shall subsist for ever And 't is for this reason that in the Apostles Creed where the Grounds of the Faith are propos'd to our Belief we are at the same time taught to believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and to believe the Holy Catholic Church and the Communion of Saints The interior Communion by Charity and in the Holy Ghost who animates us I acknowledge it but at the same time also the exterior Communion in the Sacraments in the Confession of Faith and in all the exterior Ministery of the Church And all that we have now said is included in this Word I believe the Vniversal Church We believe her at all times she is then always We believe her at all times she always then teaches the Truth Your Ministers will have us believe that 't is one thing to believe the Church that is to believe that she is and another thing to believe or give credit to the Church that is to believe all her Decisions But this is a frivolous Distinction He who believes that the Church always is believes that she is always confessing and teaching the Truth 'T is to this Church which confesses the Truth that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd Hell shall not prevail against her The Truth then shall never fail to be confess'd in her and consequently in believing that she is we are assur'd that she is always credible In effect the retaining some Points of JESUS CHRIST's Doctrine is not sufficient to preserve the Name of Church For then the Arians the Pelagians the Donatists the Anabaptists and the Socinians would be of the Church They are not however GOD forbid that we should call this Confusion by the Name of Church The Church must not then only keep
of the Church together She seem'd astonisht at this Proposition But I added That there was yet believ'd in her Religion something far more strange which was That there is a Point of Time when a Christian is oblig'd to doubt whether the Scripture was inspir'd by GOD whether the Gospel is a Truth or a Fable whether JESUS CHRIST was a Deceiver or a Teacher of the Truth When she appear'd yet more amaz'd at this Proposition I assur'd her that both this and the other I just before mention'd were necessary Consequences of the Doctrin receiv'd in their Religion concerning the Churches Authority and that I doubted not but I could force Mr. Claude to own ' em I declar'd to her the Reasons of my Assertion and shew'd her at the same time what a Mark of Falsity 't was amongst them to see how on one side they deny'd that we must believe without examining what the Church decided and that on the other they were fain for the establishing of Order to attribute to the Church the Authority they had deny'd her She let me know that she understood this Discourse and that she remembred she had read it in my Book but that thô she saw not any way to answer it she could scarce believe but that 't was answer'd in her Religion The Countess de Roye came to tell her that Mr. Claude who had promis'd to meet me the next day could not do it having receiv'd a Prohibition Mademoiselle de Duras testify'd a very great Discontent at this Proceeding I would have retir'd and left her with her Sister but she requested me to repeat what I had just before represented to her I did it in a few words and answer'd some Objections that were made me The next Morning Mademoiselle de Duras came to my House with a worthy Person of her Religion whom I knew nam'd Mr. Coton She had made use of him to engage Mr. Claude to the Conference and he brought her word that Mr. Claude had accepted it She desir'd me to repeat what I had said the day before I did so and Mr. Coton confess'd he knew not what to answer and that he had a great Passion to hear Mr. Claude upon this Point He and Mademoiselle de Duras made me some Objections concerning the frequent Revolts of the People of Israel who had so often forsaken GOD the Kings and all the People as the Holy Scripture speaks during which the publick Worship was so extinct that Elijah thought himself the only Servant of GOD till he learnt from GOD himself that he had reserv'd to himself seven thousand men 1 Kin. xix v. 18. which had not bow'd the Knee unto Baal To this I answer'd That for what regarded Elijah there was no difficulty since 't was apparent from the very words that it concern'd only Israel where Elijah prophecy'd and that the Divine Worship was so far from being at that time extinct in Juda that 't was there under the Reign of Josaphat in the greatest lustre it had been since Solomon's time The thing pass'd for manifest and I observ'd only how little Sincerity there was in the Ministers to produce still this passage after the Cardinal du Perron had given it so decisive an Answer As to what hapned in Juda it self I would yet make the Objection stronger than they had propos'd it by considering the State of GODs People under Ahaz 2 Kin. xvi 2 Chron. xxviij who shut up the Temple caus'd Vrijah the Priest of the Lord to sacrifice to Idols and fill'd all JERVSALEM with Abominations and afterwards under Manasseh 2 Kin. xxi 2 Chron. xxxiij whose Impieties transcended those of Ahaz But to shew that all this made nothing to the question I desir'd 'em only to observe that Isaiah who liv'd during all the Reign of Ahaz for all these Abominations of the King of the Priest Vrijah and almost all the People never separated from the Communion of Juda no more than did the rest of the Prophets who liv'd at the same time and in all the other which shews that there is always a People of GOD from whose Communion 't is never lawful to separate 'T is written also 2 Kin. xxi v. 10. that in the time of Manasseh GOD spake by the Mouth of all his Prophets and threatned this impious and all the People But these Prophets who reprehended and detested the Impieties of this People separated not from the Communion And to see into the bottom of the Matter we must said I consider the Constitution of the ancient People It had this peculiar to it self that it was multiply'd by carnal Generation by which as well the Succession of the People as of the Priesthood was kept up that this People bore in their Flesh the Mark of the Covenant to wit Circumcision which we do not read to have been ever discontinu'd and so thô the Priests and almost all the People should have prevaricated the State of GODs People subsisted always in its exterior form whether they would or no. Nor could there fall out any interruption in the Priesthood which GOD had ty'd to Aaron's Family But 't is not so with the new People whose exterior Form consists in nothing but the Profession of JESUS CHRISTs Doctrine so that if the Confession of the true Faith should be extinct for one only Moment the Church which has no Succession but by the continuance of this Profession would be wholly extinct without any possibility of ever rising again either in its People or Pastors but by a new Mission I added besides that I would not say the true Faith and true Worship of GOD could be wholly abolisht in the People of Israel so that GOD had no more any true Servants on Earth But I find on the contrary first that 't is clear that maugre the Corruption GOD still reserv'd to himself a sufficient Number of Servants who participated not in the Idolatry For if it were so in Israel which was schismatical and separated from GODs People as GOD himself declar'd to Elijah it must with far greater reason have been so in Judah which GOD had reserv'd to himself for the perpetuating his People and Kingdom till the Time of the Messias When therefore it is written that the King and all the People had forsaken GODâ— Law it must not be understood of all the People without exception but of a great Part and perhaps of the greatest Part which the Ministers did not deny Secondly 'T is not to be imagin'd that GODs Servants and the true Faith were preserv'd only in secret but that in all the succession of the ancient People the true Doctrine always shone forth For there was a continual Succession of Prophets who instead of adhering to the Peoples Errors or dissembling them roâ—â— up against them with force and this Succession was so constant that the Holy Ghost fears not to say 2 Chron. xxxvi v. 15. That GOD rose up night and morning
and daily admonisht the People by the Mouth of his Prophets Jer. xi v. 7. xxv v. 3 4. the forciblest expression that can be imagin'd to shew that the true Faith was never so much as one moment without Publication nor the People without advertisement And that 't was so we just now saw how in all the Reign of Ahaz Isaiah ceas'd not to prophesy and under Manasseh when the Abomination seem'd to be mounted to the highest since neither the Penitence of that King nor the Holiness of his Grandchild Josiah could revoke the Sentence given against this People GOD always remembring the Abominations of Manasseh in this time I say we have seen that GOD made his Prophets speak and that a great part of the People publickly follow'd them appears in that this impious Prince fill'd Jerusalem with innocent Blood 2 Kin. xxi v. 16. a certain sign that he found a great resistance to his Idolatries 'T is also held that he caus'd Isaiah to be put to Death as his Predecessors had done the other Prophets who reprehended them and this History is conserv'd in the ancient Tradition conformable to the Word of our Lord who upbraids the Jows with having kill'd the Prophets and to the Discourse of St. Stephen who says Mat. xxiii v. 31 37. Act. vii v. 52. That there was not any Prophet but they persecuted These Prophets made a part of GODs People these Prophets kept a considerable part both of the Priests and People in their Duty these Prophets who confirm'd their Mission by visible Miracles hindred the Corruption from gaining all and whilst a terrible Multitude and perhaps the Gross of the Synagogue was drawn unto Idolatry they kept the Tradition of the Truth in the People of Israel Ezekiel who appear'd a little after shews it when he speaks of the Priests the Levites Ezek. xliv v. 15. the Sons of Zadok that kept the charge of the Sanctuary when the Children of Israel went astra◠They proceeds he shall come near to me to minister unto me and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the 〈◊〉 and the Blood saith the Lord GOD. This Succession not only that of the Flesh but also that of the Faith and the Ministery was conserv'd in those Priests and these Levites whom GODs Grace and the Prophet's Preaching had retain'd in the Service And 't is to be observ'd That GOD never made this Ministery of the Prophets more illustrious than when Impiety seem'd to have gain'd the upper hand so that in the time when the ordinary means of instructing the People was not destroy'd but obscur'd GOD prepar'd the extraordinary and miraculous Means To this may be added That this extraordinary Means to wit the Prophetical Ministery was before the Captivity in a manner ordinary with GODs People where the Prophets made as 't were an Order always subsisting whence GOD continually drew Divine Men by whose Mouth he spake loudly and publickly to all his People From the Return of the Captivity to JESUS CHRIST there was no more any publick and lasting Idolatry We know what hapned under Antiochus the Illustrious but we know also the Zeal of Mattathias and the great number of true Believers that joyn'd to his House with the famous Victories of Judas Maccabeus and his Brethren under them and their Successors the Profession of the true Faith continu'd to JESUS CHRIST At last the Pharisees introduc'd into the Religion and Worship many Superstitions As the Corruption was about to prevail JESUS CHRIST appear'd in the World 'Till his coming the Religion was preserv'd the Doctors of the Law had many pernicious Maxims and Practices which crept in and got ground by little and little they became common but they were not pass'd into Doctrines of the Synagogue Wherefore JESUS CHRIST also said Mat. xxiii v. 2 3. The Scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses Seat All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe that observe and do but do not ye after their Works He ceas'd not to honour the Ministery of the Priests He sent the Lepers to 'em according to the Prescript of the Law He frequented the Temple and reprehending the Abuses continud always joyn'd to the Communion of GODs People and the Order of the Publick Ministery In fine the time of the Fall and Reprobation of the ancient People foretold by the Scriptures and Prophets came when the Synagogue condemn'd JESVS CHRIST and his Doctrine But then JESVS CHRIST had appear'd he had begun in the Bosom of the Synagogue to assemble his Church which was to subsist for ever 'T is then manifest first That there was always a visible Body of GODs People continu'd by an uninterrupted Succession from the Communion of whom 't was never lawful to separate Secondly Always a Succession of High Priests and Priests descended from Aaron and Levites issued from Levi so that there was never any need of GODs raising up People in an extraordinary manner Thirdly 'T is no less evident That the true Faith has always been publickly declar'd and that there cannot be any one moment assign'd in which the Profession of it has not been as clear as the Light of the Sun a thing which shews how much they are deceiv'd who believe that for to keep up the exterior State of the Church 't is sufficient that one can name from time to time pretended Teachers of the Truth For if there be any Time that the Profession of Faith has ceas'd in the Church her Condition is so much worse than that of the Synagogue as she loses from that moment the Succession as I erewhile said After I had spoken these things there was some time employ'd in passing them over again and in the mean time the Countess de Roye came to tell us That Mr. Claude consented to the Conference which if I lik'd it should be at her House about Three a Clock I Was at the Rendez-vous II. The Conference where I met Mr. Claude We began by mutual Civilities and he on his part testify'd a great Respect After this I entred into the Matter by demanding the Explication of the four Acts transcrib'd in my Book and mention'd here before After I had in few words explain'd the Difficulty as it is propos'd in the Exposition and repeated what I had said to Mademoiselle de Duras I added That Mr. Claude ought to be so much the more ready to answer it in that what I said was not at all new to him since in all appearance the Treatise of the Exposition had faln into his hands and that 't was a great satisfaction in an Entertainment of the Nature of this to be assur'd there would be no Surprise Mr. Claude took up the Discourse and having reiterated all his former Civilities in terms yet more obliging he declar'd at first that all I had objected from their Discipline and Synods in my Treatise and also at present was very sincerely related without any alteration of the Words
Revelation the Church which is but the bare Interpreter No Sir reply'd I I equal not the Church to St. Paul but I say that to pretend one ought to be Believ'd without examining when one thinks to act only as an Instrument of which the Holy Ghost makes use is not to have Dominion over the Conscience as the Example of St. Paul demonstrates Besides I pretend not to equal the Churches Authority to the Apostolical The Apostles were Authors of the Revelation as you have very well said that is they first receiv'd the Truths which it pleas'd GOD to reveal The Church is only the Interpreter and Depositary But saving this essential Difference between the Apostles and the Church I say That the Church is as much inspir'd to Interpret as the Apostles were to Establish and that holding the Grace of Interpretation from the same Spirit which gave the first Revelation to the Apostles she no more exercises Dominion over the Consciences in Interpreting than the Apostles did in Establishing But that both the one and the other cause the Holy Ghost to have Dominion over them according to the Measure which is given to every one It must be prov'd said Mr. Claude that the Church has receiv'd a like Grace There 's no need of proving answer'd I immediately 't is sufficient to shew that the Passage you alledge is not concluding To this there was nothing said But if I remember well Mr. Claude exaggerated a little how strange it was that we would oblige Men to believe the Church like GOD himself upon her bare Word without making use for the Interpretation of Scripture of the Reason GOD has given us that those of Beraea did not so and that the Apostle according to our Opinion was much to blame for letting them examin his Preachings I answer'd That there was a very great Difference between the Faithful already Children of the Church and subjected to her Authority and those that still doubted whether they should enter into her Bosom That those of Beraea were in this last Condition and the Apostle would not by any means propose to 'em the Churches Authority of which they doubted But that the Faithful were not instructed in the same manner after the Councel of Jerusalem There the Apostles decided by Authority of the Holy Ghost Act. XV. v. 28. Act. XVI v. 4. It has seemed good say they to the Holy Ghost and to us What do Paul and Silas Carriers of the Councels Letter after this They went through the Cities as 't is in the Acts What to cause the Counceâ— of Jerusalem's Decree to be there examin'd 'T would have been to examin after the Holy Ghost himself What then They went through the Cities delivering them the Decrees for to keep that were ordained of the Apostles and Elders which were at Jerusalem See the Order The Examen in the Councel the Obedience without examining after the Decision the Examen in those of Beraea that is in those who not being in the Church have yet no Authority to regulate them Submission without examining in those who being already in the Church are only to hear her Decrees 'T is their Happiness to be in a Body which guided by the Holy Ghost can never be deceiv'd and by that means be deliver'd from the Danger of an Examen the end of which would perhaps be Error The Conference had already lasted four Hours I already had from Mr. Claude's Acknowledgment one of the Propositions I would make him confess to wit That every particular Person ought to believe he may understand the Holy Scripture better than the Universal Councels and all the rest of the Church He must yet own the other Proposition no less Important and see how GOD brought him to it As he had spoken much of this Dominion of the Church over Consciences repeating three or four times That we gave her the Respect which was due to none but GOD alone when we believ'd her without Examining I told him he need not make so strange of a thing which they did as well as we and upon that I askt him Whether a Believer at his first Receiving the Holy Scripture from the Church were oblig'd first to doubt and after to examin whether the Book she put into his Hand were truly inspir'd by GOD or no. If this Believer examins and doubts he renounces the Faith and begins the reading of the Gospel by an Act of Infidelity and if he doubts not he then receives without examining the Authority of the Church which presents him the Gospel To this see Mr. Claude's Answer The Believer you suppose who has not read the Holy Scripture and into whose Hands 't is put to speak properly doubts not he is ignorant He knows not what this Scripture is which he is told is inspir'd by GOD. He has heard his Father and those who instructed him say That 't was divinely inspir'd He yet knows no other Authority but theirs and as for what concerns the Scripture he knows not what it is Thus he cannot be said to be Unbelieving or Incredulous And pray Sir said he let me make you the same Argument upon the Church as you make me upon the Scripture The Believer to whom the Churches Authority is propos'd either believes it without examining or doubts If he doubts he is an Infidel If he doubts not by what Authority is he assur'd Is the Churches Authority a thing evident of it self and must be not find it by some Examen This is your Difficulty which you have to solve as well as I either let us quit 'em both or resolve 'em both together I declare to you that I will answer for the Scripture what you shall answer me for the Church I understand you answer'd I but before I explain to you how the Christian believes the Church let us first settle the Matter that is in question Is it not evident Sir amongst you as well as amongst us That when the Holy Scripture is shewn to Children educated in the Church 't is shewn them as a Book inspir'd by GOD and I ask whether they cannot when they are caus'd to read something in it make this Act of Faith I certainly believe that what I am going to read is GODs Word Mr. Claude answer'd here That those of whom I spake to him had yet no divine Faith concerning the Authority of the Scripture but a bare human Perswasion grounded on the Deference they had for their Parents and that they were but Catechumens Catechumens Sir said I. You must not if you please speak so They are Christians they are baptiz'd they have in them the Holy Ghost and Faith infus'd they are in the Covenant according to you they have receiv'd Baptism as a Seal of the Covenant to which they are admitted and as the Covenant is seal'd in them by the exterior Seal of Baptism the Holy Ghost seals it interiorly in their Hearts Know your own Doctrin Upon this said Mr. Claude you know
that one might dispute but I own what you say And well then answer'd I if it be so they are by the Grace of the Holy Ghost and Faith infus'd in condition to make an Act of Faith when the Faith shall be preacht to them and I ask when the Scripture acknowledg'd by the whole Church for a Word inspir'd by GOD is shewn them Whether they are not in condition to make with the whole Church this Act of Faith I believe that this Scripture is GODs Word as I believe that GOD is Mr. Claude would never acknowledge this but always answer'd That they had yet only an human Perswasion about the Scripture and that Divine Faith came not to them till they had read it If they have said I but an human Perswasion they have but a doubtful Perswasion and consequently doubt of that which is according to you the whole Foundation of the Faith In one word they are Infidels No said he they are barely ignorant and you must also say as much of the Faith one has in the Church For 't is not a matter of small difficulty to discern which is the true Church and before one is in a condition to know it of ones self one is ignorant of it or one has at most but a bare human Perswasion on the Faith of ones Parents Thus once again what you shall say upon the Church I will say to you upon the Scripture Let us see Sir answer'd I whether you will say it or whether you will have reason to say it You acknowledge then That a baptiz'd Christian who has neither read the holy Scripture nor heard it read is not in condition to make this Act of Faith I believe that this Scripture is GODs Word as I believe that GOD is Behold a terrible Inconvenience that a Believer cannot make so essential an Act of Faith 'T is not so amongst us For the Believer who receives the Holy Scripture from the Hands of the Church makes with the whole Church this Act of Faith As I believe that GOD is so I believe that this Scripture is the Word of him in whom I believe And I say that he cannot make this Act of Faith but by the Faith he has already in the Authority of the Church which presents him the Scripture I must here proceeded I throughly explicate but simply nevertheless in what Order Christians are instructed concerning the Truth of the Scripture I speak not of Infidels I speak of baptiz'd Christians and I desire you to observe well this Distinction There are two things here to be consider'd The one is who it is that inspires us with the Act of Faith by which we believe the Holy Scripture as GODs Word and we say that 't is the Holy Ghost On this we are agreed The other thing to be consider'd is what exterior Means the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture and I say That 't is the Church That it is so we need only see the Apostles Creed that is the first Instruction which a Believer receives He has not read the Holy Scripture and already he believes in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost and the Universal Church There is no mention made to him of the Scripture but the believing the Universal Church is propos'd to him as soon as the believing in the Holy Ghost These two Articles enter together into his Heart the Holy Ghost and the Church because he who believes in the Holy Ghost necessarily also believes the Universal Church which the Holy Ghost directs I say then that the first Act of Faith which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of Baptiz'd Christians is to believe with the Father Son and Holy Ghost the Universal Church and that this is the exterior Means by which the Holy Ghost insinuates into Hearts the Belief of the Holy Scripture If this Means is not certain the Faith in the Scripture will consequently be doubtful But as the Catholic has always found this Means certain there is not any Moment in which he cannot say As I believe that GOD is I believe that GOD has spoken to men and that this Scripture is his Word And the Reason for which he can at first make this Act of Faith is because he never doubted of the Churches Authority and because this is the first thing which the Holy Ghost put in his Heart with the Faith in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST As to what you ask me how he believes the Church that is not precisely our Question 'T is sufficient that we see he always believes it since 't is the first thing the Holy Ghost puts in his Heart and the exterior Means by which he makes him believe the Holy Scripture The Scripture of which he never offers to doubt since he never doubted of the Church which presents it to him This Sir is our Doctrin and because 't is not yours you necessarily fall into the Inconvenience I have noted Because you believe not the Churches Authority as a thing which cannot fail we shew you a Point of time in which you cannot make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture and consequently in which you cease to be a Believer Mr. Claude told me here That the Child who recited the Creed spake like a Parrot without Understanding what he said and so we ought not to insist much upon that And besides that I affirm'd gratis That to believe the Universal Church was the first Act of Faith which the Holy Ghost put into the Heart of the Baptiz'd Christian to insinuate to him by that means Faith in the Holy Scripture In fine That I answer'd not what he askt me concerning the Church nor how we began to believe her for said he The Holy Ghost is the Principle and not the Motive of Believing That 't was requisite therefore I should explicate how we believ'd the Church and by what Motive and that from my manner of speaking it seem'd as if we believ'd her by Enthusiasm and without any Motive inducing us so to do To this I answered I pretended not That the Church was believ'd by Enthusiasm That for the acknowledging her there were divers Motives of Credibility which the Holy Ghost suggested to his Faithful as he pleas'd That he was not ignorant of them but they were not now in Question Our Business now is said I to know whether the exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture is not the Churches Authority I speak not gratis when I say That this is the first thing which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of baptiz'd Christians for in the Creed there is mention'd to them the Universal Church and she is propos'd to their Belief without speaking to them of the Scripture 'T is to no purpose to say That Children repeat at first like Parrots both the Creed and the Name of the Universal Church Let us leave said I the Parrot that speaks only by
Memory Let us come to the time when the Christian has the use of Reason and when he can make an Act of Faith By what shall he begin but by what he began to be instructed He believes then the Universal Church before he believes the Scripture In effect make I do not say a Child but any Man whosoever read the Canticle of Canticles in which there is not the least mention of GOD either good or bad In good earnest He believes this Book inspir'd by GOD only because of the Tradition First of the Synagogue and Secondly of the Christian Church that is in one word through the Authority of the Universal Church But let us keep to our Point Let us consider the Christian in the Moment when the Holy Scripture is propos'd to him as the Word of GOD. 'T is the Holy Ghost which makes him believe it we are agreed on that Point But we dispute about the exterior Means of which the Holy Ghost makes use I say That 't is the Church since 't is she in effect which proposes to him the Holy Scripture since he believ'd the Church before he heard of the Scripture since at his opening the Scripture he is in Condition to say I believe this Scripture as I believe that GOD is You say That he cannot make this Act of Faith He is then no Believer and his Baptism is of no use to him We must instruct him as an Infidel saying to him Here is the Scripture which I believe inspir'd by GOD read it Child examin it see whether it be the very Truth or a Fable The Church believes it inspir'd by GOD but the Church may be deceiv'd and thou art not in condition to make with her this Act of Faith As I believe that GOD is so I believe that he himself inspir'd this Scripture If this manner of Instructing strikes an Horror into Christians and leads manifestly to Impiety the Christian must be able at first to make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture propos'd to him by the Church he must consequently believe That the Church is not deceiv'd in giving him this Scripture A◠he receives from her the Scripture he receives from her the Interpretation of it and she no more exercises Dominion over the Consciences in obliging her Children to believe her Interpretations without examining than she does in obliging us to believe without examining the Scripture it self By this Argument Sir reply'd Mr. Claude you would make every one conclude in Favor of his Church The Greeks the Armenians the Ethiopians we our selves whom you believe to be in error we are nevertheless Baptiz'd we have by Baptism both the Holy Ghost and this Faith infus'd of which you have been speaking Every one of us has receiv'd the Holy Scripture from the Church in which he was baptiz'd every one believes his to be the true Church declar'd in the Creed and at the first he even knows not any other Now if as we have receiv'd without examining the Holy Scripture from the Hand of that Church in which we are we must also as you say receive blindfold all its Interpretations 't is an Argument to conclude That every one ought to continue as he is and that every Religion is good This was in truth the strongest Objection that could be made and thô the Solution of this Doubt appear'd clear to me I was in pain how I might render it clear to those who heard me I spake with trembling seeing it concern'd the Salvation of a Soul and I besought GOD who made me see the Truth so clearly That he would give me Words to express it fully and plainly For I had to do with a Man who heard patiently spake clearly and strongly and in fine pusht the Difficulties to the utmost points I told him I must first distinguish their Case from that of the Greeks Armenians and others he had nam'd who indeed err in taking a false Church for the true but believe at least as indubitable That the true Church wheresoever she is must be believ'd and that she never deceives her Children You are said I to him much farther off for I can lay to your Charge That you do not only like the Greeks and Ethiopians take a false Church for a true but what is undeniable and what you your self confess That you will not have us even believe the true After this Distinction which seem'd necessary to me let us come to your Difficulty Let us distinguish in the Belief of the Greeks and other false Churches what there is of Truth what they have in common with the true Universal Church in a word what comes from GOD from that which comes from human Prejudice GOD by his Holy Spirit puts in the Heart of those who are baptiz'd in these Churches That there is a GOD and a JESUS CHRIST and an Holy Ghost Hitherto there is no Error all this is from GOD Is it not true He agreed it They believe also That there is an Universal Church Are they not right in this and is it not a Truth reveal'd by GOD that there is one indeed I expected his Acknowledgment and after he had given it I added That the Greeks and Ethiopians were dispos'd to believe without examining whatever the true Church propos'd to ' em This is what you approve not Sir in this you are separated from all other Christians who unanimously believe That there is a true Church which never deceives her Children I who believe this with them reckon this Belief amongst the things which come from GOD But see where the human Prejudices begin This Baptiz'd being seduc'd by his Parents and Pastors believes the Church in which he is to be the true and attributes in particular to this false Church all that GOD makes him believe in general of the true 'T is not the Holy Ghost that puts this in his Heart Is it not true 'T is without doubt true In this place he begins to believe amiss Here Error begins here the Divine Faith infus'd by the Holy Ghost begins to be lost Happy are those in whom the human Prejudices are joyn'd with the true Belief which the Holy Ghost puts in their Heart They are exempt from a great Temptation and the terrible Pain there is to distinguish that which is from GOD in the Faith of their Church from that which is from Men. But whatever Difficulty Men have to distinguish these things GOD knows them and distinguishes them and there will be an eternal Difference between that which his Holy Spirit puts in the Heart of the Baptiz'd when he interiorly disposes them to believe the true Church and that which human Prejudices have added to it by fixing their Spirit to a false one How these Baptiz'd may afterwards disentangle these things and by what means they may get out of the Prepossession that has made them confound the Idea of the false Church in which they are with the Faith of the true Church
Submission of a divine Faith And well if it be so it remains only to choose between these Churches But then the Calvinistical Church is gone at the very first brush she degrades her self as I may say from the Title of the Church since she finds not in her self Authority enough to cause all those whom she begins to instruct to make an Act of a Christian and an Act of divine Faith not even on the Truth of the Scripture whence 't is suppos'd she ought to learn all the rest But Mr. Claude asks how one shall choose between these Churches Shall it be by Enthusiasm It would be by Enthusiasm as I have observ'd in the Conference if the true Church had not her particular Characters that distinguish her from others She has without going any farther or searching any deeper her Succession in which none can shew her by any positive Fact Interruption Innovation or Change This is what no false Church can so clearly glory of as the true because by glorying of it she would visibly condemn her self There will be then always in the Instruction which the true Church shall give her Children concerning her Condition something that no other Sect can or dare say 'T is by this we would convince if it were in question the Greeks the Ethiopians the Armenians and other Sects which seem in this respect more deceiving because of the apparence of Succession that they shew which also makes them way to attribute to themselves with a little more ground the Authority of the Church But as for the Calvinian Church there is an end of her because she has not so much as an apparent and tolerable Succession and that she dares not as we have now shewn by Mr. Claude's acknowledgment attribute to her self this Authority without which there can neither be any certain Instruction nor any assur'd Foundation of Divine Faith nor in fine any Church 'T would be then in vain for us to lose time here in disputing with the Egyptians and Greeks the Succession they brag of 'T would be no great Labor to shew them the exact Moment of their Innovation The Pretended Reformed know it as well as we and can themselves shew it them when they please So when they pross us to do it 't is not that they think to engage us in a thing impossible or even obscure and difficult but 't is in a word that in so bad a cause there is always something got by digressing and making the consequence of an Argument be lost Thus I had reason to tell Mademoiselle de Duras in one of the Instructions of this Book that if any one disgusted with the Calvinistical Church was tempted to embrace the Religion of the Cophti or of the Greeks 't would be then time to shew them in these Churches that inevitable Moment of their Novelty which they can no more deâ—y than can the other Sects but since the Calvinists with whom we have to do agree it and that none thinks of leaving them but to come to us when we oblige any one to leave them by shewing from their Ministers own Confession the enormous Absurdities of their Doctrin the work is perfected and all the rest on that occasion would be to no purpose And to the end the Method of the Conference and the State of the Question which is there treated may be throughly understood it did not aim directly to establish the Roman Church but only to shew that there is some-where or other a true Church to which we must submit without examining and besides that this cannot be the Calvinistical Church since she will her self have one examin after her which makes her acknowledge the Absurdities we have remark't and by this acknowledgment lose the Title of the Church This done there 's no more question to preach the Roman Church that is that Body of the Church of which Rome is the Head since to him that will choose between two Churches the excluding of the one is the establishing of the other without any need of disputing farther for this purpose Besides that the Roman Church so evidently beare these Characters of the true Church that there is scarce any man of good Sense even amongst our Reformed but agrees that if there be in the world an Authority to which we must submit 't is that of this Church But however when one sees the Absurdities one is forc'd to own in Calvinism for want of having acknowledg'd in the Churches Authority the true Principles of Christian Instruction one soon retires from a Church whose Method and Instruction is so manifestly defective and one is sufficiently sollicited by the Remains of Christianity which one feels within himself to return to the Church from whence he departed The Sixth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's reducing as much as he can this Dispute to the Instruction of Children VVE see in Mr. Claude's Discourses that press'd by this want of Authority which ruins all Instruction in his Church he affects to reduce our Dispute to the Instruction of Children and thinks he has found an Advantage by making this Instruction depend on Parents and Nurses who are better known at that Age than the Church and her Ministers By this means he thinks to conceal from us the Churches Authority in the first Exercises and first Acts of Faith we make before we have read the Holy Scripture But he ought first to consider that the Argument I made him regarded not only Children Children are not the only Christians that have not read the Scripture Mr. Claude is not ignorant that there were in the beginning of Christianity not only particular men but also whole Nation which according to the Report of St. Irenaeus had not the Holy Scripture and without reading it ceas'd not to be true Christians The Debate then between us is in general concerning all those that have not read the Holy Scripture of what Age soever they may be and what way soever they may have hapned not to have read it For 't is of those and if they will 't is of those whom St. Irenaeus mentions or of their like that I enquire concerning the Faith with which they believe the Scripture and prepare to read it as being inspir'd by GOD. If they have but an human Faith as Mr. Claude says they are not Christians and if they have a Divine Faith as must be acknowledg'd unless we will fall into an horrible Absurdity 't is then true that Divine Faith without ones having read the Scripture immediatly follows the Churches Doctrin and establishes her infallible Authority 'T is on this Authority that every Christian who takes the Scripture in hand begins by believing with a firm Faith that all he is going to read is Divine and he stays not his believing the truth of this Scripture till he has read it all he believes the first Chapter before he has read the second and he believes all before he has read the first Letter or so much
Preaching not some Truths or only the principal Truths but the entire Fulness of Christian Truths Whatever they say 't is not to believe blindly to believe thus or 't is to believe blindly like Abraham on the word of GOD himself and the Faith of his Promises How insupportable then is the Doctrin of Mr. Claude who after he has acknowledg'd so many magnificent Promises of JESUS CHRIST's in favour of this sacred Ministery plunging again all of a sudden into the Darkness of his Sect whence he was beginning to get out shews us the Ministery so abandon'd by JESUS CHRIST that there is no Remedy for its Errors but by deposing all at once all those which are in the Chair What agreement have these Promises so well acknowledg'd with so universal a Corruption Mr. Claude then needs only hearken a little to himself for to come unto us after having acknowledg'd in vertue of the divine Promises the Eternity of the Ecclesiastical Ministery in this Estate he represents to us to find there always all Truth he needs only consider that this imperfect Assistance and as one may say this half Succor of JESVS CHRIST to his Church is neither beseeming his Wisdom nor his Power being moreover assur'd that there is no true Sufficiency in the Ministery but by the full manifestation of the Truth reveal'd by GOD agreeably to this Word of the Apostle By manifestation of the Truth we commend our selves to every mans Conscience in the sight of GOD. 2 Cor. iv v. 2 3 4. Whence he concludes presently after that if our Gospel that is most certainly our Preaching be hid it is hid to them that are lost to the end he may make us understand that the Preaching always clear and always sincere in the Catholick Church has no obscurity but in Rebels in whom the Devil the God of this World and the Spirit of Pride hath blinded the minds as the same Apostle proceeds lâ—st the Light of the glorious Gospel should shine unto them 'T is now easy to see that all Mr. Claude's Subtilties serve only to confound him What avails it him that acknowledging the Churches Visibility he endeavour'd to elude the Consequences of this Doctrin by reducing the Church to the true Believers I am contented where-ever he finds Church let him understand the true Believers let him even explicate if he will these Words Mat. xviii v. 4. Tell it unto the Church Tell it to the true Believers single them out amongst the Troop and judge before the Lord or because as himself acknowledges here is too apparently meant the Church represented by her Pastors Mans Ans 4. q. let him say that these Pastors represent the true Believers which are not known and act in their Name What will these Explications after all advantage him since that in fine according to his own Doctrin this true Church shall always be 〈◊〉 visible and these true Believers always under a publick Ministery from which JESUS CHRIST so little permits his Church to be separated that even after these Words Tell it unto the Church but if he neglect to hear the Church let him he unto theâ— as an 〈◊〉 man to shew how redoubtable the Churches Judgment is he immediatly expresses the efficacy of the Ministery by these Words Matt. xviii v. 18. Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and the rest which every one knows Thus I conclude always equally that the Church which we must shew without interruption whether it be only the true Believers or if they will only the Elect or whether it be in a certain Sense the wicked mixt with them Matt. xiii v. 21. and those that believe for a while according to the expression of the Gospel is a Church always gather'd under a visible Ministery and a Body always subsisting of People with their Pastors where the Truth is preacht not in secret Matt. x. v. 27. but upon the house tops Let them turn as much as they will 't is a Church of this Nature and this Constitution we must at all times shew by Mr. Claude's Confession To make her disappear for one sole Moment is utterly to annihilate her and to overthrow the Promises of the Gospel in what they have most sensible and most apparent to make her appear always is invindibly to establish the Roman Church Thus what Mr. Claude explicates to us with so much care besides that it is false leaves the Difficulty entire and his Cause in as had a Condition as it was before his Defence But to the end they may not say we are contented with refuting him let us tell him the Truth in few words The Foundation of the Church is the true Believers and those principally who persevering to the end abide eternally in JESVS CHRIST and JESVS CHRIST in them that is to say the Elect. The Wicked which envinron them are after their manner comprehended under the Name of the Church as the Nails as the Hair as an Eye put out and a wither'd Arm which perhaps receives no more nourishment is comprehended under the Name of the Body All is for these true Believers The Ministery under which they live is theirs in the Sense 1 Cor. iii. v. 22. that St. Paul said All is yours whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas Not that the Power of their Pastors comes from them or that they alone can set them up and depose them GOD forbid This Pastoral and Apostolick Power comes from him Joh. xx v. 21. who said As my Father hath sent me I also send you This is what makes St. Paul say in the same place 1 Cor. iii. v. 4 5. Who is then Apollos and who is Paul The Ministers of him whom you have believ'd and to every one as our Lord hath given to you to be Believers and to us to be Pastors Wherefore he adds farther v. 9. We are GODs Laborers or to say better Co-operators These Ministers and these Workers establisht by GOD are also the Ministers of the Faithful and in this Sense are theirs because they are their Servants by JESVS CHRIST establisht in the Chair not for themselves for as to their own part it would suffice them to be simple Believers 2 Cor. iv v. 5. but for to edify the Saints He that desires to be in the Communion of these Saints need not torment himself to distinguish them from others for thô they are not known and perfectly discern'd but by GOD alone we are sure to find them under the publick Ministery and in the exterior Profession of the Catholick Church We need then only stay there for to be assur'd to find the Saints because this Profession and the ever fruitful Word of the Preachers which never fails to engender some keeps them always inseparably united to the holy Society where they receiv'd it Wherefore when JESVS CHRIST promises to teach always with his Church he comprehends all in this Word and rendring
tell thee According to this Rule whoever can shew a whole Church a whole Society of Pastors the Beginning of its Being and a Time whensoever during which it was not has convinc'd it of not being a Church truly Christian This is our Pretention and we pretend not that this Question is about a simple Formality We averr that it concerns a fundamental Article contain'd in these words of the Creed I believe the holy Catholick Church an Article besides of such importance that it carries with it the Decision of all the rest But as this Point is decisive so it is no less clear and it cannot be long spoken of but one side or other will shew their weakness Let us say better when a Catholick never so little instructed undertakes a Protestant upon this Point this Protestant how able and subtil soever will find himself reduc'd not always indeed to hold his Peace but what is no less strong than Silence to say nothing when he shall attempt to speak but visible Absurdities This is what here befell Mr. Claude thrô the sole Defect of his Cause for 't will appear that he defended it with all possible Skill and so subtilly that I fear'd for those who heard him for I know what St. Paul writes of such Discourses But in fine we must boldly say The Truth gain'd a manifest Victory What Mr. Claude avows ruins his Cause The Places where he stood without an Answer are indeed such as suffer none And to the end it may not be said I assert what I please or that I now desire what I ere while disclaim'd to be believ'd on my own word two things will shew whatever Opinion may be had of me that in this Point I must necessarily he believ'd The first is that relying on the force of Truth and his Promise who said Luk. xxi v. 15. that he will give us a Mouth and Wisdom which our Adversaries shall not be able to resist where-ever Mr. Claude shall say that he has not acknowledg'd what I make him acknowledge in the Recital of the Conference I engage my self in a second Conference to draw again from him the same Acknowledgment and where-ever he shall say that he was not without an Answer I will force him without any other Argument but those he has already heard to Answers so visibly absurd that any men of good Sense shall acknowledge he had far better have been silent than have made use of them And for fear it should be said for in an Affair that concerns the Conversion of Souls we must as much as may be prevent all Objection for fear then once again it should be said that Mr. Claude engag'd himself in these Inconveniences by ill management I on the contrary affirm that this Advantage is so inherent to our Cause that there is no Minister no Doctor no man living but must in the same manner sink under the like Arguments Those who will make trial of it shall see that this is no vain Promise If any one says I presume too much on my strength now that I examin my self in the presence of GOD if such a Presumption had made me speak I should disown all I had said Instead of promising my self any Advantage I should esteem my self already vanquisht by trusting only to my own Arm and my own Weapons and so far should I be from defying the strong as David that I should rank my self among those Ps 63. of whom the same David sings that the Arrows of Children have pierc'd them and their own Tongue too weak to defend them is in fine turn'd against themselves The Instruction I offer in general to the Pretended Reformed I particularly offer those of the Diocess of Meaux whom I am above all the rest oblig'd to bear in my Bowels Those that shall refuse this Christian Instruction no less peaceable fraternal and paternal than concluding and decisive I shall say to them in the words of St. Paul with sorrow and groaning there being no comfort in the loss of ones Children and Brethren Acts. xx v. 26. I am pure from the Blood of them all This is the first thing which will shew that I impute nothing to Mr. Claude which might give me any Advantage The second is that Mr. Claude himself in the midst of what he opposes against me and amongst all the Turns he gives our Dispute still acknowledges at last what was in contest between us or else shifts it off in such a manner as plainly shews he cannot entirely disown it But this will be better understood by those who after the Instructions and the Conference shall read the Reflexions I make on Mr. Claudes writing Some Attention is requisite to comprehend the whole sequel of these Instructions for whatever Easiness it has pleas'd GOD to let us find in a matter in which he shews the most ignorant as well as the most learned the plain way of Salvation yet would be not discharge any one of the Attention he is capable of and since the following Discourses had their Rise from the XIX and XX Articles of my Exposition the reading of these two Articles which will take up but half a quarter of an hour will facilitate the Vnderstanding of all this Work thô I moreover hope that it is of it self sufficiently intelligible Besides the Reading of them will not be unuseful to Catholicks who ordinarily too much neglect Books of Controversy Grounded on the Faith of the Church they are too careless in perusing such Works by which their Faith might be confirm'd and in which they might find means to reduce the Erring This was not the Vse in the first Ages of the Church the Treatises of Controversy written by the Fathers were sought after by all the Faithful Conversation being one of the Means propos'd to us by the Holy Ghost for the gaining of Vnbelievers every one endeavour'd to render his profitable and edifying by such Reading The Truth insinuated it self by so sweet a Means and Conversation won those whom a premeditated Dispute would perhaps but have made more averse But to the end the Works we make of Controversy may be read as those of the Fathers were let us endeavour as the Fathers did to fill them not only with exact and found Doctrine but also with Piety and Charity and let us as much as we can correct the Dryness not to say the Sourness which is too often found in such Books A TABLE OF THE ARTICLES CONFERENCE I. THE Preparation to the Conference and particular Instruction p. 1 II. The Conference p. 20 III. The Sequel of the Conference p. 49 REFLEXIONS THE first Reflexion on Mr. Claude's Answer to the Acts extracted from the Discipline of the Pretended Reformed p. 58 Second Reflexion on one of the Propositions acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference and on the Examen he prescribes after the Churches Judgment p. 64 Third Reflexion on another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the
some Truth She must keep and teach all Truth else she is not the Church Nor is it to any purpose to distinguish the fundamental Articles from the others For all that GOD has reveal'd must be retain'd He has reveal'd nothing to us that is not very important for our Salvation Isai xlviii v. 17. I am the Lord which teacheth thee profitable things In the Faith then which the Church teaches must be found the fulness of the Truths reveal'd by GOD Otherwise she is no longer the Church that JESUS CHRIST founded That particular Persons may be ignorant of some Articles I easily confess but the Church conceals nothing of what JESUS CHRIST has reveal'd And therefore the Faithful who are ignorant of certain Articles in particular confess them nevertheless all in general when they say I believe the Vniversal Church This said I is the Church which your Ministers know not They teach you that this visible and exterior Church may cease to be upon the Earth they teach you that she may err in her Decisions they teach you that to believe this Church is to believe Men But 't is not in this manner that the Church is propos'd to us in the Creed 'T is there propos'd to us to believe her as we believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and therefore the Faith of the Church is joyn'd with the Faith of the three Divine Persons These things having been said at several times but almost in this Order I added that our Doctrin on this Point was so true that the Pretended Reformed who deny'd it could not wholly reject it That is their Synods acted in such a manner as shew'd that they requir'd as well as we an absolute Submission to the Authority and Decrees of the Church Here I let Mademoiselle de Duras see the four Acts of the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion which I have taken notice of in the Exposition Article XX. She had read them there but I caused her to read them in the very Book of the Discipline The first is taken out of the Vth. Chapter Title of Consistories Article XXXI Where 't is said That Disputes about Doctrine should be determin'd by GODs Word if it might be in the Consistory if not the matter should be brought before the Colloquy thence to the Provincial Synod and in fine to the National where the full and final Resolution should be made by GODs Word to which if any one refus'd to submit with an express disclaiming of his Errors he should be cut off from the Church 'T is not then said I to GODs Word alone precisely as such that the full and final Resolution belongs since after it is propos'd an Appeal is permitted but to GODs Word in as much as explicated and interpreted by the Churches last Judgment The second Act is taken out of the Synod of Vitré related in the Book of the Discipline It contains the Letter of Mission which all the Churches make when they send Deputies to the National Synod See the Terms of it We promise before GOD to submit our selves to whatsoever shall be resolv'd in your Holy Assembly being perswaded that GOD will preside in it and guide you by his Holy Spirit in all Truth and Equity thrô the Rule of his Word This Perswasion said I if it be grounded only on an human Presumption cannot be the matter of so solemn an Oath by which they swear to submit to a Resolution they do not yet know It cannot then be founded but upon an express Promise That the Holy Ghost will preside in the last Judgment of the Church and Catholics say no more The third Act which is found also in the same Book of the Discipline is the Condemnation of the Independents on their saying That every Church ought to govern it self without dependance on any one in Ecclesiastical Matters This Proposition was in the Synod of Charenton declar'd as prejudicial to the State as to the Church 'T was there judg'd That it open'd the Door to all sorts of Irregularities and Extravagances took away all Remedies and made way for the forming as many Religions as Parishes But said I whatever Synods are held if we do not believe our selves oblig'd to submit our Judgments to them we cannot avoid the Inconveniences of the Independents and the leaving a Door open for the setting up as many Religions I do not say as there are Parishes but as there are Heads We must then come to this Obligation of submitting our Judgment to what the Catholic Church teaches These three Acts are taken out of the Book of the Discipline printed at Charenton in the year 1667. The fourth is found in a Book of Mr. Blondes's Intitled Actes Autentiques printed at Amsterdam by Blaeu in the year 1655. 'T is a Resolution of the National Synod of Sainte Foy 1578. which names four Ministers to meet at an Assembly where was to be treated a Re-union with the Lutherans by framing a Formulary of Profession of the common Faith Power was given to these Ministers to decide all Points of Doctrin and others that should be brought into Deliberation and to consent to this Confession of Faith even without communicating any farther about it with the Churches if the Time permitted not to do it From this Act I concluded two things One That the whole Synod trusted their Faith in the Hands of four private Persons a thing far more extraordinary than to see particulars submit to the whole Church The other That the Pretended Reformed Church is yet but little assur'd of her Confession of Faith since she consents to the changing it and that in Points so important as are those that make the Dispute with the Lutherans one of which is the Reality If the Pretended Reformed hop'd that the Lutherans would return to them there was no need of a new Confession of Faith What was then intended was That both the one and the other continuing in their Sentiments there should be fram'd a Confession of Faith in which both Parties might agree which could not be done without adding or suppressing something essential in a Confession of Faith which they give us as teaching only the pure Word of GOD. Mademoiselle de Duras acknowledged to me that having seen in my Treatise these Acts and my Reflections which are the same with these I now made she knew not what to answer to 'em and that therefore she desir'd to hear what Answer Mr. Claude would make as well upon these Acts as upon the other Difficulties that regarded the Authority of the Church I told her That thô those of her Religion acted as holding the Churches Authority infallible and indisputable yet 't was true That they deny'd this Infallibility and I added That 't was a constant Maxim in her Religion That every private Person how ignorant soever was oblig'd to believe That he could understand the Holy Scripture better than all the Councils and all the rest
I receiv'd from several Places and even from the remotest Provinces this Writing of Mr. Claude's with his Relation but the perfectest and most correct Copy I have seen was communicated to me by the Duke of Cheoreuse who had it from a Lady of Quality of the Pretended Reformed Religion I have seen also in the same Duke's hands a Declaration sign'd by Mr. Claude in which he owns all the Writing so that it cannot be doubted but 't is his I find many things in this Writing which manifestly confirm all that is read in mine I pretend not to repeat here all these things nor answer to those in which Mr. Claude appears to me through the weakness of his Cause as little to agree with himself as with us To make such Remarks a Writing must be in the Hands of all People so that every one may see whether the Passages are truly related and the Sense and Consequence well taken in a word it must be publick It shall be so when Mr. Claude pleases In the mean time I will make some Reflexions on things about which I think he cannot disagree and which may very much assist the Pretended Reformed to take a good Resolution upon the Matter we have treated The First REFLEXION On M. Claude's Answer to the Acts extracted from the Discipline of the Pretended Reformed MY First Reflexion is upon the Answer made by Mr. Claude to the Acts extracted out of the Discipline of his Churches I made use of these Acts to shew That 't was so necessary for all private persons to submit in Matters of Faith to the Churches infallible Authority That the Pretended Reformed who rejected it in speculation were at the same time forc't to acknowledge it in Practice What is most pressing in these Acts is That to the National Synod alone excluding Consistories Colloquies and Provincial Synods is attributed the last and final Resolution by GODS Word Discip ch 5. Art 31. vid. sup p. 13. Discip ch 9. Art 3. Observ p. 144. vid. sup p. 13. But because this is the last and final Resolution the Churches and Provinces sending Deputies to this Synod swear solemnly to submit to whatever shall be concluded in that Assembly being perswaded that GOD will preside in it by his holy Spirit and his Word Thus because they believe an entire Submission due to this supreme Sentence when it shall be pronounc'd they swear to it even before 't is given 't is to act consequentially But if after a Promise confirm'd by so solemn an Oath they pretend a Liberty is still left them to examin I confess I know not what Words signifie and there never was any mental Evasion so full of Illusion and Equivocation It may well be believ'd without my telling it That the Ministers find themselves prest by so clear an Argument In such Occasions where the Truth is discover'd with so much evidence the more one perceives the Difficulty the more also one finds himself embarrass'd So there is nothing more visible than the Perplexity which appears in Mr. Claude's Answer I say even in his Answer such as himself sets it down in his own Relation He is reduc'd to say That they make this Oath because one ought to presume well of such an Assembly and moreover That these Words We 〈◊〉 to submit to your Assembly being perswaded that God will preside in it include a Condition without which the Promise thus sworn has not its Effect This is all 1 Repl. p. 344. Chap. 35. p. 192. Nog 2. p. ch 23. p. 447. p. 298. Preserv art 15. p. 286. that can be answer'd The Anonymus who dedicated his Book to Mr. Conrare first made me this Answer Another Anonymus whose Book is Entitled The Disguisement unmaske made it after him Mr. Noguier and Mr. de Bruyes other Authors that answer'd the Exposition had only this to say Mr. Jurieux stuck to this Answer in his Preservative only explicating more plainly than the rest That all this Perswasion which serves for a Ground to the Oath is a Clause of Civility the Terms whereof must not be abus'd Mr. Claude had no other Reply and this is the only one which still appears in his Relation Thus this so serious and solemn an Oath of all our Reformed and their Churches in a Body to their National Synod is reduc'd to this Proposition which would be in the bottom but an insignificant Complement We swear before GOD to submit to all that you shall decide if you decide by his Word as we hope and presume you will But why then is not this great Oath pronounc'd in these Terms but that they well saw to reduce it to these Terms would be to say nothing and they would say or at least seem to say something For my part the more I consider what is said in the Discipline of the Pretended Reformed concerning this Oath of the Churches the farther I find it from the sense they would give it I find first as I have observ'd in the Conference That this Oath is made only for the National Synod that is for the Synod in which the last and final Resolution is to be made by GODs Word and the National Synod of Castres has declar'd That there should not be us'd in the Letters of Mission Disc ch 9. Art 3. Obs p. 144. brought by the Deputies of particular Churches to the Colloquies and Provincial Synods SVCH ABSOLVTE Clauses of Submission as are inserted in the Letters of the Provinces to the National Synod Why but only to shew the Difference there is between the last Decision and all the rest I effect when I sought in what this Difference consisted I found another sort of Submission for the Colloquies and Provincial Synods 'T is that those who are accus'd to alter the sound Doctrin Disc ch 8. Art 3. are antecedently oblig'd to make an express Promise not to seminate any of their Opinions before the meeting of the Colloquy or the Provincial Synod 'T is a Rule of Discipline and Policy But when they come to the Synod in which this last and final Resolution is to be made the particular persons indeed reiterate the same Promise but they stop not there the Churches in Body add this great Oath of submitting entirely to the Decision being perswaded that GOD himself will be the Author of it A bare human Presumption as Mr. Claude calls it a Clause of Civility as Mr. Jurieux stiles it cannot be the matter and foundation of an Oath we also see That not only private persons but also Consistories and whole Provinces perceiv'd in this Oath something stronger than they will at present let us understand in it insomuch that they made a great Resistance against it which could not be vanquisht but by a long time and the reiterated Decrees of National Synods I see this Resistance continue till the year 1631. In this year and before I find almost continually in the National Synods whole Provinces censur'd because
they will say nothing new or unusual in their Religion Calvin said it in formal terms when speaking in general of all the Councils of the precedent Ages 4. Instit c. 9. he writ these words I pretend not in this place that all the Councils must be condemn'd and all their Decrees vacated Nevertheless proceeded he you will object to me that I so order them as to permit every one indifferently to receive or reject what the Councils should have establisht by no means that 's none of my Intent You would say â—he were very far from it The Majesty of Councils and the Authority of so great a Name moves him at first but the Consequence of his Doctrin makes him soon forget what he seem'd willing to say to their advantage For see how he concludes When says he the Authority of a Council is alledg'd I desire first it be consider'd in what time and for what cause it was assembled and what Persons assisted at it afterwards that the principal Point be examin'd according to the Rule of the Scripture so that the Councils Definition have its weight and be as a Prejudice but that it hinder not the Examination This is what all this careful Enquiry after Time Matter and Persons in fine terminates in to wit That at what Time soever a Council is held what Matter soever is there treated and or what Persons soever 't is compos'd every one indifferently for that was the Question should examin the principal Point by GODs Word and believe he can understand that Divine Word better than all the Councils See how far these Gentlemen pâ—sh the Examen They drive it yet much farther since they will have one examin after the Apostles This is not a Consequence which I draw from their Doctrin 'T is their own very Proposition and Doctrin in formal Terms and particularly that of M r. Claude For upon what I saith in the Exposition Exp. Arâ— 19. that after the Council of Jerusalem Act. XV. v. 18. and the Decision of the Apostles where they said It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us nowe had any thing more to examin and that in effect Paâ—l and Barnabas with Silas as 't is written in the Acts Act. XVI v. 4. went through the Churches teaching them not to examin what the Apostles had done but to keep the Decrees they had ordain'd Because I concluded thence That they gave the Form to all following Ages and taught us how in all times the Faithful ought to submit to the Churches Decisions without examining after several Answers but all frivolous they were fain at last to answer me clearly That one ought yet to examin after the Council of the Apostles 'T is the 〈◊〉 't is the first that answer'd the Exposition who writ in these terms We do not see that the Apostles publisht their Decision with an absolute Order it should ' be obey'd but they sent Paul Barnabas and Silaâ— for to instruct the Faithful to keep this Ordinance that is evidently to perswade them the Motives and Grounds of it which says not that they were forbid to examâ—â— This is what the Anonymus says The Place is remarkable you will find it in the Nineteenth Article of the first Answer in the fourth and last Observation he makes on the Council of the Apostles Page the 328 th This is not a particular Sentiment of this Authors since there is plac'd in the Front of his Book the Approbation of four Ministers of Charenton of which Mr. Claude is one to the end he may not say I charge him with a strange Doctrin in imputing to him that of this Anoâ—â—mus Thus 't is not the unbelieving Jews and Gentiles 't is the Faithful the Christian Churches that ought to examin after the Apostles and after the Apostles assembled and after they have pronounc'd It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us And this prodigious Doctrin is taught in a Church which vauâ—â—â— of hearing nothing but the pure Words of the Apostles See whither the Ministers and the Pretended Reformed and particularly Mr. Claude are forc'd by their Belief to carry the necessity of the Examen There was nothing left but to say we must yet examin after JESVS CHRIST and that with all his Miracles and all the Authority given him by his Father he had not enough to oblige men to follow him on his Word and without examining Mr. Claude said it in our Conference and says it again in his Relation I desire the prudent Reader to believe that in a Matter of this importance I will neither impose upon him nor exaggerate Let him follow me only with attention and he shall see the Truth plainly appear You have seen how I objected in the Conference That unless there were acknowledg'd a living and speaking Authority to which every particular Person is oblig'd to submit without examining private Persons would be brought to the Presumption of believing they could understand the Holy Scripture better than all the Councils together and than all the rest of the Church To prove that in this there was not any thing so presumptuous or absurd Mr. Claude answer'd me that in the time when JESUS CHRIST was upon the Earth the Case had hapned when a private Person ought to raise his own Judgment above that of the Synagogue assembled which condemn'd JESUS CHRIST That this was so far from being a Sentiment of Pride that 't was the Act of a perfect Faith This Answer I confess struck an Horror in me For to make it good one must say That in the time when the Synagogue judg'd JESUS CHRIST and he himself was on the Earth there was not upon Earth any living and speaking Authority to which Men were oblig'd to submit without examining So that one ought to examin after JESUS CHRIST it not being permitted to believe him on his Word I made this Answer to Mr. Claude and shew'd him That they were then so far from a necessity of every ones determining himself by a particular Examen and setting himself above every living and speaking Authority that there was at that time one the greatest which ever was or could be to wit That of JESUS CHRIST and of the Truth it self to whom the Father publickly bare Witness by a Voice from Heaven by the greatest and most visible Miracles that were ever wrought and in fine by the most resplendent as well as the most certain Means the Divine Omnipotence could make use of If I observe in the Conference there was no Answer to this Argument 't is very apparent that in effect there ought to be none Mr. Claude nevertheless in his Relation says he answer'd me That JESUS CHRISTs Miracles made one of the Matters in Question That there were false Miracles which Moses in Deuteronomy advis'd the Israelites to take heed of That the Synagogue had judg'd JESUS CHRISTs Miracles to be done in the Name of Beelzeâ—ub That in fine an Authority
of the Divinity through Atheism since Examination and Doubt is a Spice of it But 't is not so GOD has plac'd his Mark in the World which is the Work of his Hands and by this divine Mark he imprints in Souls before all Doubts the Sentiment of his Divinity In like manner he has plac'd his Mark in his Church the most perfect work of his Wisdom By this Mark the Holy Ghost makes the true Church known to the Children of GOD and this so particular Character which distinguishes her from all other Assemblies gives her so great an Authority that without hesitating we admit before all Opinions not only the Holy Scripture but also all her sound Doctrin Thus are the Children of the true Church instructed those that are educated in a strange Church as soon as they perceive her waver in any part whatever of her Instruction ought to stretch forth their Arms to the Church which has reason never to waver because she has never vary'd nor waver'd and they find they ought to return into it because none should ever have gone out of it The Seventh REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's saying in his Relation that I appear'd embarrass'd in this part of the Dispute IT may now be judg'd whether I ought to be perplext about the Promise I made Mademoiselle de Duras to make Mr. Claude acknowledg a Moment in which by the Principles of his Religion a Christian had but an human Faith concerning the Truth of the Scripture How could I be embarrass'd about a thing which Mr. Claude acknowledg'd in the Conference and which he acknowledges still in his Relation thô he has weaken'd both my Proof and his own Confession 'T is true he cannot let go the Word Doubt but I pretended not to make his Tongue form this Syllable the Equivalent is sufficient for me 'T is an Excess great enough to reduce the Christian who is going to read the Holy Scripture to be uncapable of a Divine Faith To content ones self in this Condition with an human Faith is always too evidently to renounce Christianity I have then manifestly what I desir'd from Mr. Claude's Acknowledgment And if he says That the Faith he here speaks of excludes Doubt as resembling that which makes us believe there is a City call'd Constantinople or that there was heretofore a King nam'd Alexander the Great thô we know it but by Men This indeed is not enough for a Christian who ought to act by a Divine Faith but 't is still enough to conâ—ound Mr. Claude 〈◊〉 according to this Answer the Church would always have an Authority equal to that which all Mankind as I may say has when they unanimously depose concerning a sensible Fact Thus in what manner soever Mr. Claude explains to us 〈…〉 Faith the Victory of the Truth I asserted will remain secur'd by his Confession Since if he says his human Faith excludes Doubt he supposes in it an infallible Truth and if he say it leaves a Doubt he will in fine have pronounc'd these fatal Syllables he so much shun'd In a Cause so assur'd if I trembled for any thing but the Danger of those into whose Hearts I fear'd that either by reason of my own Weakness or their Prepossession I could not make the Truth sufficiently enter I ill understood the Truth I defended In the mean time because I said in the Recital of the Conference That at Mr. Claude's objecting to me the Greek Church and others I trembled thrô the Apprehension lest an Objection propos'd with â—o much Address and Eloquence might put a Soul in Peril Mr. Claude took this moment to make me appear vanquish'd Here says he it may with Truth be said That Monsr de Condom ' s Mind was seen not to be in its usual State and that the Liberty which is so natural to him sensibly decreas'd I may truly say in my turn That my Trembling whence this Advantage is drawn was interior and that I can scarce believe Mr. Claude could have perceiv'd it had I not my self sincerely related it in my Recital But what matter is it what was either the Effect or Cause of my Fear They shall say if they please That being put to a stand by Mr. Claude's Objection I would cover the Disorder into which I visibly fell by the Trembling I fain I had for the Salvation of a Soul that expected its Instruction from my Assistance I will own it if they please or rather not to ly I will let it pass without Opposition Let me have trembled before Mr. Claude provided that even in Trembling I spake the Truth I spake it They need only see what were my Answers and whether I drew not from Mr. Claude's Mouth the Acknowledgment I pretended After this the more I shall have trembled and the weaker I shall have been the more certain 't will be That 't was the Truth which kept me up The Eighth REFLECTION On another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference where is shewn the manner how all false Churches establisht themselves THere is a Part of the Conference which Mr. Claude passes over in four Words 'T is that where I shew him the horrible State of his Church which set it self up after the Example of all false Churches by separating from all the Christian Churches that were in the World and without finding any Church which thought as she did at the time of her Establishment So that she was not joyn'd by any Continuity either to the time that went before or to any Church which appear'd then in the World This Fact pass'd for evident and how short soever Mr. Claude has been in the Recital of this Part he says enough to shew That in acknowledging this important Fact he has only endeavour'd to cover the Shame of such a Condition by the Example of the Apostles when they separated from the Synagogue I will not repeat what I said on this Subject You have seen it in the Conference and Mr. Claude who relates but one Word of it does not oblige me to any new Exaplanation I shall only say That he gives a very false Idea of this part of the Dispute The Company says he was risen and the Conversation which continu'd yet some time became much more confus'd and we discours'd of divers things I know not why Mr. Claude will have our Conversation to have been confus'd it was not so in any part and 't was less so if it were possible in this than in the rest 'T is true we were risen and Part of the Company was withdrawn but Mr. Claude and I stood firm before each other Mademoisello de Duras seem'd to have redoubled her Attention and after so many Principles declar'd the Dispute became more quick and more concluding than ever If we spake of divers Matters it was not ramblingly and all tended to the same End It may be seen by reading it and if Credit will not be given to me in this behalf when