Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	believe_v	church_n	infallible_a	2,836	5	9.7883	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A14657	The svmme of a dispvtation betweene Mr. VValker, pastor of St. Iohn Euanglists [sic] in Watling-street London, and a popish priest calling himselfe Mr. Smith, but indeed Norrice assisted by other priests and papists : held in the presence of some worthy knights, with other gentlemen of both religions.	Walker, George, 1581?-1651.; S. N. (Sylvester Norris), 1572-1630.	1624 (1624)	STC 24960.5; ESTC S2955	22,486	46

you our King will marry his Son and aske the Pope no leaue if the other party will aduenture it as well as he It is most intollerable that you should so boldly slaunder his Maiestie Secondly for the tearmes of my questions which you call vnmannerly they are the same which it pleaseth Gods spirit to vse in the holy Scriptures and his holinesse hath in his wisedome been pleased to stile the Pope and Church of Rome by the same titles as I shall quickly proue if you will vndertake to answer me And therefore you are too bold to taxe Gods spirit of vnmannerlinesse But perhaps this is a shift of yours to put off our disputation vpon these poynts which pay you home with a cleanely excuse of vnmannerly tearmes yet it shall not serue your turne for the more vnseemly that the questions are the more disgrace it will be to me and the more hard taske to proue them and to you it will be more credit and ease to defend the contrary so that this is no excuse for you at all Thirdly in that you doe charge vs here at home so manifestly contrary to common sense that we haue neither Church nor Faith when as we beleeue and professe all holy truthes taught in the holy Scriptures which by your selues cannot be denyed to be Gods infallible word But I pray you let vs leaue all loose and idle discourses and come to a strict forme of Disputation writing downe the Arguments and answers which doe passe betweene vs. Your taske which you haue vndertaken is to proue that we haue no Church nor Faith let vs heare your arguments briefly Mr. Smith Well that we may come quickly and closely come home to the matter let me aske you a question and doe you answer me that I may ground my Arguments vpon your owne words and I shall quickly proue against you my assertion and make the truth of it plainely appeare First I aske whether the true Catholike Church be visible M. Walker The true Catholike Church is not visible neither can it be seene with eyes of any mortall man on earth M. Smith Marke Gentlemen he will deny this Canon he saith the Catholike Church is not visible which I will proue to be against all reason Mr. Walker Indeed if I should say that it were visible considering it as it now is I should speake against all reason For the greatest part of it being Saints in heauen are without the reach of mans eyes and cannot be seene Mr. Smith You doe but equiuocate of purpose to decline all Disputation you know that I meane not the Church triumphant in heauen but the Catholike Church militant on earth Mr. Walker Nay rather doe you equiuocate or worse for to say that the Catholike Church is militant on earth is as absurd as to say that all mankinde euen the whole vniuersall race of Adam are now liuing on earth when reason and experience teach vs that the greatest part are dead and many also yet vnborne I hope you know that the word Catholike signifies vniuersall and therefore the Catholike Church is vniuersall company of the Elect and faithfull and includes in it euery one whosoeuer hath beene or is or shall be hereafter a true beleeuing member of Christ and a●l they cannot bee seene at once on earth because they neuer were altogether on earth The militant number of them on earth are the least part of them Mr. Smith You doe wrangle to auoyde D●sputation I therefore tell you that by the Catholi●e militant Church I vnderstand the true Church of Iesus Christ which all true Christians here on earth ought to heare and obey as it is the pillar and ground of tru●h now answer whether you hold that to be visible or inuisible M. Walker I iudge of your meaning by your words and therefore I cannot conceiue this Church which you doe speake of to be the Catholike that is the vniuersall Church for euery true particular Church in which euery true Christian doth loue and whereof he is a member is that which he ought to heare and to obey because by reason of the faithfull and elect which are in it it is the house of God and the pillar and firmament of truth Now euery such Church is partly visible and partly inuisible M. Smith How is it visible and how is it inuisible Mr. Walker Euery such true Church hath in it elect and faithfull men professing outwardly in word and practise true Christian religion who doe belong to the Catholike Church and are true liuely members of Christ It hath also some hypocrites and carnall professors which doe also make an outward show and profession of christianity but are not truely ingraffed into Christ by vnion and communion of the Spirit neither haue the true holy sauing Faith and by consequent are not members of the true Catholike Church Now the men who professe religion in the Church and are the members of it if we consider them as they are men and as they practise and performe outward duties of christians as preaching and hearing of the word administring and receiuing the Sacraments publike outward worship and such like they are visible But as for the election faith spirituall and in word graces and deuotion in the one sort by which they are indeed true christians belong to the Catholike Church and the hipocrisie and carnall corruption lurking inwardly in the other sort by meanes whereof they are seperated from communion with Christ in spirit they are things inuisible and to be discerned spiritually not with bodily eyes Thus euery true Church is partly inuisible to wit in respect of the spirituall graces which make men true Christians indeed and partly visible to wit in respect of the outward profession common both to elect and reprobates to faithfull men and hypocrites Mr. Smith No sooner was the answer giuen but Mr. Smith as one full of anger protested with vehemency of words that now he saw indeed there was neither Church nor Faith among Protestants they were all so contrary among themselues neuer agreeing together in any opinion He affirmed to the standers by that Doctor Whitakers Doctor Reignolds Mr. Perkins and many other chiefe Protestants did euer grant that the true Catholike Church was visible Another Priest sitting by scornefully repeated the name of Perkins and spake of him as of a poore silly man not worthy to be counted among the learned Mr. Walker Mr Walker moued with the falshood of the one and the scorne of the other first answered the scorner that none could count Mr. Perkins silly and vnlearned but either out of ignorance or wilfull mallice and that he knew it to be the fashion of popish Priests outwardly to sleight vilifie before the people such as do most cut and gall them To Mr. Smith he answered that if he would grant that Protestants haue a true Church and the true faith as truely as that which he affirmed of Doctor Whitakers and the rest was false

thus That Church which may erre for a time in a fundamentall point necessary to saluation hath not sufficient meanes of saluation for that time yours is such Ergo it is no true Church Mr. Walker Here are the same three faults which were in your former Argument First no proofe of the proposition denyed Secondly foure tearmes Thirdly the manner is still false for possibilitie of erring doth not take away sufficiency of meanes for the time Mr. Smith I proue it thus That Church which may erre for a time in a fundamentall point necessary to saluation for that time hath not the whole infallible truth requisite to salvation But your Church may so erre Ergo. It hath not the whole infallible faith requisite for salvation Mr. Walker I see you cannot bring one argument to proue that which I denyed but still you doe begin a new Argument to proue new things Notwithstanding I will follow you wheresoever you goe and therefore I deny the maior and doe require you to proue that possibility of erring takes away the whole infallible faith from such as are subiect to it Mr. Smith I proue it thus The beliefe of the whole infallible faith is a meanes necessary to salvation The English Church hath not the whole infallible faith Ergo. That Church which may erre for a time in a fundamentall point for that time hath not meanes sufficient Mr. Walker Now sir I see you haue lost the question and your reason and your selfe and all your speech is a Chaos without forme or figure and proueth nothing at all If you be not able to make a Syllogisme I pray you confesse your weakenesse and let mee dispute one of my questions against you and let vs trie what facultie you haue in defending your cause I am sure you haue none to any purpose in opposing it Mr. Smith Stay a little and I will bring it into a Syllogisme presently The whole intire infallible faith in all fundamentall points is onely a meanes sufficient to salvation That Church which may erre for a time in a fundamentall point hath not the whole infallible faith Ergo it hath not sufficient meanes c. Mr. Walker You cloy me with crasie Syllogismes which haue neither mood nor figure and which tend to proue nothing but onely to repeat what hath beene before denyed to wit That possibility of erring for a time in a fundamentall point doth depriue a Church of the whole infallible faith Thus you bring in againe as your minor though it hath before beene denyed and therefore I will still put you to proue it But I pray you let your assistant write downe your Syllogismes for I am weary of writing and of wasting paper with false fallacies and confused speeches which hath neither mood nor figure Mr. Smith I am sure I shall quickly bring my Argument into forme if you stand so strictly on artificiall Syllogismes Hauing thus sayd he arose from the table as if hee would breath himselfe and after much scratching of his head and other gestures he turnes to the Priest his assistant and bids him write and did dictate vnto him another false Syllogisme of some tearmes which Mr. Walker reiected and derided And after that another which was so reiected And after that a third and so on till he had spent a side of a leafe in folio in writing downe fallacies and a large halfe houre and more of time So that Mr. Walker began to intreat him that he would giue him leaue to make his Syllogisme for him for he perceiued what he intended Whereat Mr. Smith chafed and sayd to the Gentlemen he confounds me or else I could haue long agoe brought it into a Syllogisme Mr. Walker answered you doe me wrong to attribute to mee the honour which belongs to God and his truth for they confound you and not I. Then one of the Roman Catholikes began to sweare by God that Mr. Smith did make a true Syllogisme which Mr. Walker had without cause reiected Mr. VValker desired him to repeat it and to shew it to be regular according to moode and figure The Roman Catholike swore againe divers great oathes and sayd that he would take the Sacrament vpon it and renounce his salvation if hee did not heare Mr. Smith make a true Syllogisme and that one of them which Mr. Walker reiected was it Mr. VValker answered that oathes could not proue false Syllogismes to be true neither could the Sacrament turne a fallacy into a sound Argument And told him that if he were so prodigall of his saluation he might sooner lose his soule then make a Syllogisme out of Mr. Smiths confused speeches and fallacies At length after much adoe Mr. Smith hammered out this Syllogisme Mr. Smith That Church which hath not the whole intire infallible faith hath not meanes sufficient to salvation That Church which may erre for a time hath not the whole intire infallible faith Ergo it hath not meanes sufficient Mr. Walker I deny your minor and doe put you to proue that the Church which may erre hath not the whole infallible faith Mr. Smith I proue it thus That Church which is subiect to error hath not the whole infallible faith That Church which may erre is subiect to error Ergo. Mr. Walker Now sir I thanke you that you haue bestowed a Syllogisme vpon me to proue the proposition denied But I must tell you that your maior proposition is false For a Church may be so far subiect to error that it may haue a possibility to erre and yet not be voide of the whole infallible faith It is one thing to be subiect to error and another thing to erre actually we hold that our Church or any other particular Protestant Church may erre but doe not thinke that our Church doth erre in any fundamentall point Mr. Smith You doe but cavill for if it may erre it is as bad as if it did erre and therefore I haue sufficiently convinced you by my argument Mr. Walker I hope you doe not speake as you thinke nor thinke as you speake For you know that by our Law euery Seminary Priest is subiect to hanging and quartering and there is no impossibility of executing the Law vpon them And yet you hope that all or the most part of them in England shall not be actually executed and you know that they are not all in the same case as if they were hanging actually For an Argument doth not follow a posse ad esse as we Schollers speake But now seeing your argument is hanged vp and wee haue spent foure houres and more in hearing you dispute to no purpose I pray you let mee prosecute one of my questions against you for the time which remaineth and I hope to make more Syllogismes in an houre then you haue done in foure if you will answer me directly Here some of the Roman Catholikes said that it was full sixe a clocke and now there was little time left But some of the Protestants