without the Church If it be replied No because that Church did implicitly consent in yeelding their Elders for members of that Presbytery We reply That if either your publick Law constrains that Church upon penalty Invitum dicitur quod quis vel per ignorantiam admittit Arist Eth. l. 3. c. 1. Kecker Praecog Syst Eth. against their light to suffer their Elders to fit in the Classicall Presbytery then that Church doth not freely consent or if that Church without constraint doth consent for want of light as it must be supposed if a Classis upon debate be found to be besides the word this ignorant act of that Church is an unwilling or involuntary act and so no free consent And so the Classis according to A. S. his distinction is like a Magistrate which is a Bishop without and about that Church But good A. S. we know it is an easie matter to distinguish the Magistrate into such an executive coercitive externall power as you speake of but we would fain see you demonstrate him into it and then A. S. and M. S. should be no more two but one S. We know not how to transform distinctions into demonstrations His second Distinction is of the Subject of this power the Magistrate whom he makes two-fold truly Christian and not truly Christian But 1. I would faine know by what Touchstone A. S. will try his gold in this case I mean judge of the truth of Christianitie in a Magistrate It appeares from page 50. of his discourse that he hath no mind to grant his truth of Christianity unto a Magistrate that is either Lutheran Anabaptist Socinian or Papist Any of these misprisions in Christianity are as sufficient in A. S. his judgement as in ours to keep the sword of that power we speake of out of the Magistrates hand And as for a Magistrate whose judgement shall be infected perfected reason and truth would say with Apologisme or the great hatred of his soule independencie I make no question but he in the Comique terme should bee exclusissimus from this capacitie or right above all the rest But let us goe on with the man in the termes of his own addresse to the Apologists Sect. 13. in the same place If he saith that by a Magistrate truly Christian he understand an orthodox Magistrate what if he had one or two errors would he yet permit him to be orthodox and truly Christian or not Till A. S. here specifies Seermones generales non movent his own shall make use of my reason to beleeve that by a Magistrate truly Christian A. S. onely mean a Magistrate who in his judgement is Presbyteriall and that this qualification of Presbyterialisme and truth of Christianitie in a Magistrate are against all contradictions and counter-poysings whatsoever termini aequipollentes in his Logique And if this be his meaning the king to be sure hath none of his power as yet in actu exercito and jure in re nor hath the Parliament at least for ought A. S. or the kingdom knoweth any whit more of it then the King And whatsoever it hath done hitherto by any executive coercive externall power about the Church or Church-affairs in which kinde it hath done very much depends as touching the validity and justifiableness of it upon this supposition that it Presbyterializeth Whence it followeth that he that cannot or doth not believe that the Parliament is of a Classique inclination cannot with the leave of A. S. his distinction judge them to have done lawfully or warrantably any thing that they have done hitherto about or for the Church The truth is that till A. S. will please to define what manner of Magistrate hee must be that shall pass the test of his distinction for truly Christian wee are constrained to suspend our bounty in conferring that executive coercive externall power about the Church upon any man Nor do I make much question but that wee shall have twenty Distinctions more before we shall obtain that Definition But of all the three distinctions here upon the stage Sect. 14. the best dancer is yet behind This Power or Authority saith he belongs actually and in effect in actu exercito jure in re it 's very long me thinks ere wee hear to whom it belongs to true Christian Magistrates but to others potentially in actu signato jure in rem only untill they become truly Christian 1. Though I have many times heard of the distinction in actu exercito in actu signato yet I never heard of any thing belonging to a person in actu exercito but that belonged to him and that per prius in actu signato Hee to whom the principle or power of acting doth not belong cannot stand ingaged for the exercise or acting of such a power 2. My soul longs for the Summer fruit of a good reason from A. S. Sect. 15. why any power about the Church and for the Church should not belong actually and in effect in actu exercito jure in re and with as many other proper unproper necessary unnecessary sober ridiculous expressions as he pleaseth as well to a Magistrate not yet truly Christian as to him that is such Hath not an Heathen or Heterodox Magistrate a lawfulness of power to do presently this day this hour to morrow and so forth toties quoties as much good to and for the Church or Churches of Christ within his jurisdiction or dominion as he could have if he were truly Christian Do acts of justice bounty grace towards the Churches of Christ any whit more defile a Magistrate how far from truly Christian soever then acts of the same nature performed unto his other subjects The Kings and those that were in authority in Pauls dayes were generally all the kings without exception far from being truly Christian and yet was it not lawfull for them to interpose with their Authority or Power that the Churches of Christ in their dominions might lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty If not then was that exhortation of his 1 Tim. 2.2 to be laid up in Lavender for some hundreds of yeers after it was given or else the benefit and blessing the obtaining whereof by prayer is made the ground of the exhortation must have been made over in the intentions of those that had so prayed unto their posterities after many generations A. S. may choose which of the two hee will believe for my part I shall not be his corrivall in either Yee have heard A. S. his Distinctions for a coercive power about the Church in a Civill Magistrate Demonstrationes autem ubi But where are his proofs Quas non invenio usquam esse puto nusquam What I finde not any where I believe to be no where I have searched Sect. 16. and that somewhat narrowly throughout the whole volume of his Discourse to finde something that with any indulgence of imagination might be
eating and drinking are not to be tolerated Apagecruentas nugas Whereas you adde that a Toleration of Sects cannot but daily beget new Schismes and divisions We answer first that this allegation we have answered already once and againe yet secondly we adde that many inconveniences sicknesses diseases come by eating and drinking yet are these to be tolerated in the world Thirdly we plead for no toleration of any Sect nor of any thing so called but which may stand with the utmost that either A. S. with his pen or his whole partie with theirs can doe against them to suppresse them Fourthly we havâ—â—â—â—â—erly prov'd that Apologisme is neither Sect nor Schisme no more then A. Ssisme is Fifthly and lastly whereas you say That a Toleration of Sects cannot but daily beget new Schismes c. We answer first that Gods toleration or long-suffering towards sinners doth not onely lead all sinners to repentance but also bring many thereunto And why should not mans toleration expect an effect answerable hereunto Secondly the disciples in the ship were as much afraid that their dear Lord nd Master had been a foule spirit and would have sunk them in the Sea as A. S. is afraid of a Toleration that it must needs beget new Schismes and divisions daily But as the feared Destroyer proved the experienced preserver of that ship and men so may A. S. his feared propagator of Schismes and Divisions bee found an experienced destroyer and dissolver of them That means of all other which hath God in it is likest to doe the deed And God we know was neither in the tempest nor in the earthquake nor in the fire but in the still voice His to Reason answered His tenth reason being help'd riseth up in this forme If there was a greater difference amongst the members of the Church of Corinth in the time of S. Paul and yet they communicated together and that by the Apostles exhortation then ought not the Apologists to be tolerated But true is the former therefore the latter also We answer first that the fabrick of your Argument is built upon a false foundation or supposition viz. that the reason why the Apologists refuse communion with you you mean I suppose in your sacramentall actions is because of the latitude weight or degree of the differences in iudgment between you and them whereas the reason of their refusall in this kinde is the nature or particularity of the difference together with your practice depending upon your opinion in opposition unto theirs not the height weight or importance of either A difference in judgement about the lawfulness of stinted forms of prayer is nothing so materiall or weighty as a difference about the nature of Faith Justification c. yet the lighter difference in this case makes persons so differing uncapable of joyning together in Communion in the use of such prayers whereas the greater difference would not Secondly if there were so many and great differences amongst the members of the Church of Corinth as you speak of and yet Paul no wayes perswaded or incouraged the predominant or major party amongst them either to cast out cut off or suppress the underling parties but exhorted them unto mutuall communion c. Why do not you content your self with the line of the same process and in stead of disgracing quashing crushing trampling on only exhort the Sects and Schismes amongst you unto mutuall communion and to the forbearance of Sects and Divisions a practice which you do well to take notice of in the Apostle but do ill to think that your own of club-law is better Thirdly and lastly nor do wee know any ground or good bottome you have for your assumption wherein you affirm that there was greater difference amongst the members of the Church of Corinth then is between the Apologists and you Old Ipse dixit is made to carry this burthen alone Your eleventh Reason is very corpulent but less active His 11. Reason answered the chief ingredients of it being Abbots and Priors Convents and Monasteries amongst the Papists St Francis St Dominick and the Donatists with whose opinion and practice you say the opinion of your Brethren too much symbolizeth We answer first that Theologia symbolica non est argumeâ—tativa Angels and Devils agree in something yet this agreement is not impeachment Qui ut uni haresi suae adâ—tum atâ—faceret cunctarum haeres 〈◊〉 sphâ—mias â—â—â—ctabotur Vincent Lyr. cap. 16. either to the holiness or happiness of the Angels A. S. himself symbolizeth with Nestorius the Heretique in one property of whom Vincentius Lyrinensis reporteth that to make way for his own heresie or opinion hee fell heavie upon all heresies beside Secondly whereas he affirmeth that the opinion of his Brethren is not unlike to the Convents and Monasteries amongst the Papists certainly the unlikeness between them is for greater then that between an Apple and an Oister We cannot but wonder how or in what respect the man should conceive that an inward spirituall and notionall thing as an opinion is should be like a great building made of lime and stone or a pack of die fellows in a fat Fraternity Thirdly whereas hee insinuates a hatefull similitude between his Brethren and the Donatists who hee tels us separated themselves from other Churches under pretext that they were not so holy as their own We answer first that this insinuation will not so much as in shew touch all the Apologists however because some of them we believe have no Churches of their own and therefore they cannot pretend more holiness in them then in others Secondly that neither in substance or truth doth it touch any of them or their opinion For first they do not separate from other Churches but only in such opinions and practices wherein they cannot get leave of their consciences to joyn with amongst their Churches themselves one from another one dissenting from another not only in many opinions but in some materiall practices as before was touch'd and that from A. S. his own pen no wayes partiall you may think in such a case Secondly we would know whether A. S. himself and his party doth not as much symbolize with the Donatists in that criticall property or practice we speak of as the Apologists For under what pretext do they separate from the Church of Rome and from Episcopall Churches but only this that they think not their Churches to be as holy as their own If they separate from them upon any other grounds it were not much materiall though they held communion with them still Yea thirdly if they do not think their Presbyteriall Churches more holy then the Congregationall they are far more guilty of Schisme and Separation then their Brethren here spoken of For then they are at liberty in point of conscience to come over and joyn with them when as the other are in bands and fetters of conscience and cannot pass unto them Their Brethren would
up Josh 22.11 Negatively the outward act either of speaking such evill opinions or doing such evill facts may be restrained and yet no violence done to the conscience to act contrary to it's inward dictates and perswasion being not yet convinced they are evill This being only a suspension and intermission of the outward man from acting towards others not a coaction or subversion of the inward acts of judgement and understanding in himself And so Jewes or c. may be permitted among Christians so as they do not manifest their errors and defiance against the fundamentall truths that so they may hear and believe and be converted or how else shall they be won to the truth and the promise of God fulfilled touching their call 2. The spreading and practising of opinions that apparently tend to Libertine-licencious ungodliness ought not quietly to be permitted They cannot be suffered but with sinne and reproof from Christ to the sufferers of them Rev. 2. v. 14. to v. 21. where two Churches viz. Pergamos and Thyatirâ— are charged with sinne and reproved by Christ for having among them and suffering Balaamiues Nicolaitans and Jezabellians to vent such opinions viz. 1. That under pretence of liberty and charity wives were to be common 2. Vnder pretence of avoiding scandals and perils it was lawfull for Christians to be present at the the sacred things Idolatries and joyiall banquettings of Pagans Vâ—de Port. in 2 Revel as things indifferent These in the Churches ought to have been excommunicated if refractory out of the Churches These not of any Church if they will not be convinced by conference with the Churches ought to be restrained from their evill practises by the Magistrate according to the examples of the pious Kings reforming abuses upon the ground of Moses penning of politiqâ—e laws to punish them that could not be accounted meet members of a Church for their lewd lives 3. For those opinions that are neither against fundamentals nor tend to licenciousness but stâ—ive to beat out truths thereby to creep closer to the rule to walk more evenly in the path both of Doctrine and Discipline and will in both by a strict bond amongst themselves walk as exactly as by any power Ecclesiastical without them set above them a their own wilâ— shall be in stead of others lawes I say such opinions are not to be restrained either from all divulging or practising that wee can finde by any Scripture We wave the question now Which is the only true form of Discipline and put the case in generall What opinions and practices that are conscienciously taken up ought to be left unrestrained To which our answer is that this sort here are they or else how shall there be a trying all things a trying of the spirits a discovery of new light and present truths prophesied to be revealed in their severall periods of times If any be contrary-minded we shall be glad to hear their grounds till they produce those and make them clear to the Churches wee ask our due a quiet permission to injoy that liberty which Christ hath bought and the Gospel brought and not to be jeered by any A. S. as here who tells the five Ministers that to live quietly without troubling the State they may have it appearingly unsought Let the world judge whether here be not a saucy jeer both in matter and form of speech I would A. S. had made use of that toleration and then he had not so intolerably troubled a Kingdome Or else if he had no stomack at first to be quiet if for some days he had but had somewhat appearingly allowed him to bite upon somewhat appearingly to quench his thirst he would have had a stomack rather to eat and drink then bite and jeere He is so passionate that hee doth not remember what he says in one page so as it may be reconciled to another Here he saith the Parliament is wise enough and knoweth what is convenient for the Church of God you may perceive his meaning by reading his Interrogatory yet in his Annotation upon the inscript of the Apologie pag. 5. He supposeth that the Parliament should arrogate if it should take upon it any directive power in matters of Religion If he hath any Scholastick quillet to reconcile this within himself it is more then the common people and weak brethren he writes to know of M. S. Note that A. S. bath one Consideration more But were it not that it it did answer it self I should have been too weary of his former inconsiderate considerations to have staid here being eager to come to his book 1. He saith that they ayme at separation he meanes the five Ministers though they disclaime it in their Apologie unlesse to separate as our brethren the Scots did from Prelaticall coaction should tolerate some small pretended defects they are but pretended yet he saith not approved by those from whom they desire to separate 2. He saith the Church from which the five Ministers would separate testifies a great desire to reforme defects yet those defects saith he are but pretended to be in it 3. Hee thinkes that the five Ministers should doe better to stay in the Church to reforme abuses then by separation to let the Church perish in abuses Now he supposeth destroying abuses and would have the five Ministers stay to helpe reforme yet he is angry with their Apologie that doth but sigh forth an intimation of neede of reformation And so angry that he would as ye heard in his second consideration it s so long since that he hath forgotten it have the five Ministers quit the Assembly A. S. his Annotations upon the inscription of the Apologists Narration M.S. If I thought A.S. had any skill in Physick I would aske him whether by Annotations he meanes as the Physitians speake Annotationes incompressas becticarum febrium indicia violent annotations are sigâ—es of an hectick feaver in his vitall parts A. S. All Apologies suppose some accusation which here appeares none M. S. Not to meddle with your Engâ—ish which is scarse grammaticall you are intreated to speake true Doth not the Apologie begin and end with sad complaints Remember our answer to your fourth Consideration A. S. If intended for an Answer to that which hath been written against your opinions it comes very short weake and slender M. S. Why then would you fight with a fly The Mouse told the Elephant that he would never get honour in killing a silly Mouse Why did you bestow so much Oratorie and Logicke to clap it and fisticuffe it A. S. Neither is it a meere Apologeticall Narration but also a grievous accusation against all our Churches as destitute of the power of godlinesse M. S. This indeede is a false accusation as we have cleered it in our Answer to your fiâ—t Consideration A. S. The Apologie saith humbly submitted c. So humbly submitted to the honourable Houses of Parliament as if they submit not themselves to your
Where there is no Superiour or Inferiour there can be no obedience or disobedience Non buc non illuc exemplo nubis aquosae 2. If the civill Magistrate hath power to command the Church to revise her judgment when she judgeth any thing amisse Sect. 7. surely he hath power to examine and judge of her proceedings whether they be regular equall and just or no except you will say that he comes to the knowledge of your itregular and undue proceedings in your Presbyteries by immediate revelation Suppose either the one or the other what reason have you to deny him part and fellowship with you in that Directive power in matters of Religion which you ingrosse and appropriate to your selves as we have formerly seen 3. If so then your Presbyteriall Assembly or judging Church may determine and judge amisse And if so 1. how dare yee compell or make the people under your government to sweare obedience or subjection unto your orders which yet by your own confession pag. 42 ordinarily you doe 2. Why are you not satisfied with that subjection to your Presbyteriall Decisions which pleadeth no exemption but only in the case of non-satisfaction about the lawfulnesse or truth of them You give men a good foundation a liberty to beleeve that you may erre but you will not suffer them to build upon it to refuse you when they think in their souls and consciences that that you doe erre They that will separate between such premisses and such conclusions will hardly make good Christians themselves or suffer others so to be And if you be but ingenuously willing to goe along with this your own principle That you may erre as farre as it would gladly lead you me thinks I durst undertake that the Apologists and you shall comprimize before to morrow next 4. And lastly if parties may have cause to be offended Sect. 8. and not onely pretend to be offended as A. S. would mince it with the Church as out of all question they may if the Church may judge amisse then have they power to judge of their actions as well as they of theirs No man is justifiable in his complaint or offence taking but he that hath a power to examine and judge of that which gives the cause or ministers the occasion of the offence And if a fingle partie which is no Presbyter or Prophet in your sense hath a lawfull power to examine and judge of the acts and orders of a Presbyteriall or Propheticall Assembly and may possibly by means of such an examination take them tardie do not so far magnifie the spirits of your Prophets against the spirits of our Saints as to think these good for nothing but to swear homage and vassalage unto them But. A. S. Sect. 9. suâ—elâ— pleaseth himselfe highly with a paracell of distinctions wchâ—e presents us within the prementioned Description and hopes perhaps to make an atonement with them for his confusion orâ—er wise First He distinguisheth of that executive coercive power where with hâ— invests the civill Magistrate as not being in or intrinsecalâ— unto the Church hus ex ernall and about the Church Secondly he distinguisheth the subject capable of this power the civill Magistrate into truly Christian and not truly Christian Thirdly upon this distinction he builds a third distinction concerning the manner of the competencie of this power to the one kind of subject and the other telling us that this power or authority belongs actually and in effect in actu exercito jâ—re in re to true Christian Magistrates but to others potentially in actu signato and jure in rem onely till they become true Christians The man you see hath much adoe to find Sect. 10. or come at that power where with he would so fain gratifie the civill Magistrate in matters of Religion He adjures three unclean spirits of distinctions to tell him what and where it is and yet they doe but peep and mutter in their answer and make no man the wiser by it Here he seeks for the coercive power of the civill Magistratre in matters of Religion in the same black sea of darknesse and confusion wherein he seekes and would make the world beleeve he finds the Presbyterian government afterwards But if the one and the other be cloz'd up in such an ammunition of rockes of distinctions as A. S. represents them in his story certainly they are inaccessible to the judgements and consciences of persons of mean capacity and much more inaccessible to the judgments and consciences of more understanding and considering men The very darknesse it selfe of the distinctions which he is necessitated to use to make his way to come at the one and at the other is a light sufficient to discover that neither the one nor the other is any where to be found within the territories either of reason or of truth But let us see the distinctions play a little before us for their Masters credit For the first The Magistrates power saith he viz. in matters of Religion for so he must necessarily be understood by the Antithesis in the former clause or member of this Distinction where he denies a Directive power unto him in matters of Religion is not in or intrinsecall to the Church but extrinsecall and about the Church Is it in i. intrinsecall to matters of Religion and but extrinsecall in respect of the Church So then it seems A. S. his Presbyteriall Church is somewhat more inward intimate and intrinsecall then the religion of this Church otherwise how should the power of the Magistrate penetrate into the Religion thereof and yet not reach into but onely unto the Church it selfe By this distinction he hath utterly disgrac'd his Presbyteriall Government by making the Churches under it more internall and inward then the religion that is to be found in them If the Apologists had but whispered one tittle of such a saying though at never such a distance it had been enough to have produced seven reasons more at least against their toleration then are yet levied or brought forth into the world But 2ly though you seem to deale very bountifully with the Magistrate in giving him a power extrinsecall and about the Church Sect. 11. and to content your selfe and your compresbyters with an intrinsecall power onely yet by somewhat that hath been lately printed it appeares that you mean to eate at the same Table with him which you pretend to spread for him alone For hath not the presse very lately been delivered of this peece of Presbytery Reformation clearned p. 23. that the Clafficall Presbytery hath the authoritative power of Citation just as the Bishops had And is not such a power externall and which is not in but about the Churches For if a Classis shall cite or excommunicate a member of a Church against the judgement and consent of the Elders of that Church let all the world judge whether that be not an act of externall power
the Apologists p. 4. that you saw them no wayes minded to submit themselves in these matters of conscience to the desires of the Parliament I verily beleeve that did their judgements depend upon their wills as it seems yours doe they would have been as freely willing to have submitted in all things unto the desires of the Paâ—liament as you are But 6. If our wills be weak Sect. 8. and thereby are hindred from seeing that goodly vision of Presbyterian Government in the practice of the Jewish Church which you see what doe you contribute or afford us towards the healing and strengthening of them Nay doe you not rather occasion that which is weak in this kind to be quite turned out of the way For when you tell us as you doe pag. 13. 1. that the adaequate end of your Presbyteriall government is the externall peace of the Church And 2. that the power thereof consists first in the creation suspension and deposition of Church-officers secondly in determining matters of Doctrine thirdly in making Ecclesiasticall lawes concerning things indifferent c. all which you tell us on a heap pag. 42. you both make us very loth and unwilling to find your government there and withall very confident that there it is not to be found For First Sect. 9. was the adaequate end of the government of that Church the externall peace of the Church Had it nothing in designe for the spirituall good for the edification of the members of it in knowledge faith and holinesse Was the power of the high Priest given him only to keep the Church in externall peace I thought that to provide for the externall peace of the Church had rather appertained to the civill Magistrate and government then to the Ecclesiastick and it is the Apostle himself that thus thoughteth me 1 Tim. 2.2 where he enjoyneth that supplications prayers c. be made for Kings and all that are in authority that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honesty Secondly neither doe I find in the practise of that Church any power given to the combined rulers and governours thereof for the creation suspension deposition of Church-officers I read of the deposition of a Church-officer and no mean one neither by the Civill Magistrate 1. King 2.27 So Solomon cast out Abiathar from being Priest unto the Lord c. but of any such deposition by the combined rulers of that Church I remember not that I have read But 3. As for any power of determining matters of Doctrine Sect. 10. this is further out of my ken in the practice of that Church then any thing else I know not well what A. S. means by his phrase of Determining matters of Doctrine but in my notion and in the Grammaticall and proper sense of the word Determine the claim of such a power riseth up as a high partition-wall between me and his Government If by a power of determining matters of doctrine he meanes nothing else but a liberty or ability of discussing and arguing such matters and of recommending the issues and results of such discussions unto the Churches as consonant in their judgements to the truth with a proposall of their desires unto the Churches to consider well of them and to embrace them if they can so judge and conceive of them I have nothing to oppose against this power But if by his power to determine matters of Religion he means a power of concluding or defining what men shall be bound in conscience to receive and beleeve for truth and shal be look'd upon as sinning in case they doe it not whether they see sufficient ground for what is so concluded and obtruded upon them or not which I partly beleeve to be A. S. his sense I am sure is the proper sense of the word such a power is and I think ever will bee the first-born of the abhorrings of my soul I confesse I cannot be over-confident that A.S. intends the residence of such a power as this in his Presbyterian Assemblies partly because he speakes somewhat like a man in this behalfe elsewhere supposing it to be safe even for a few men to dissent from all the world Paget Defence of Church government pag. 29. in case they have very strong reasons for their dissent pag. 22. and requires no subjection in particular Congregations unto the judgment of Senats or Assemblies but according to Gods word pag. 28. I trust he means so apprehended by the congregation without this there is no subjection according to Gods word And again pag. 68. acknowledgeth it as an undoubted maxime that the church hath no absolute power in her judgments c. with many savoury expressions in this kind partly also because I find this indulgence generally subscribed with Presbyterian pens That the authority which Classes and Synods exercise is not absolute nor their Decrees held to be infallible but to be examined by the word of God and not to be received further then they do agree bâ—rewith And yet on the other hand I confesse that I cannot conceive or comprehend how A.S. his government can hold up her head like her selfe if this Iron-mace be taken out of her hand For my part if this one Article of a liberty to wave Presbyteriall Injunctions and Decisions in case of a non liquet from the word of God to him to whom they are tendered will bee but assented unto and candidly kept and performed it would be the best Mediator I know to reconcile my thoughts and judgement to it 4. Nor can I in the practice of the Jewish Church Sect. 13. find either vola or vestigium of a power granted unto the Rulers thereof to make Ecclesiasticall laws concerning things indifferent I rather find a prohibition served upon them for making any such laws Ye shall put nothing unto the word which I command you nor shall you take ought therefrom c. Deut. 4.2 So again Chap. 12.32 If A. S. can but produce one example of any such Law or Constitution made by them he shall be a good benefactor to the penury of my notions and in consideration thereof I will bestow upon him a dashing out of this peece of his charge 5. And lastly Sect. 12. in the practice of the Jewish Church the Prelaticall Schoole sees a vision or platforme of her government also And A.S. by your leave the High-Priest as well in his Authoritie as in his robes and holy accoutrements did farre more plausibly sympathize with Metropoliticall state and greatnesse then with Presbyteriall For my part I am not able to discern in all the practice of the Jewish Church from the one end of it unto the other any peece straine or veine of such a patterne as A. S. speaks of Surely the vision is so condition'd as not to be seen but upon Presbyterian ground The man did wisely in granting that he had no formall or expresse patterne for his government either
likewise why they should not be tolerated It seems contradictions inconsistences impertinences unintelligibilities sense nonsense any thing nothing will serve to make reasons against the poor Independenters as you call them why they must not be tolerated Was not the consideration of your own pag. 14. that the Devill evermore assaults more the true Church the true Doctrine and true Discipline then the corrupted Church her corrupted Doctrine or Discipline a far better sanctuary for your Churches against those Popish calumnies you speak of then a correspondence with them to keep you in unity and conformity But this Reason we have answered formerly His 19. reason answered Your nineteenth Reason is very concise In this you only say that of such a Toleration follows all you formerly deduced out of Independencie And so it may without putting the world to much damage or sorrow When we cast up your deductions of inconveniencies out of Independency wee found them counterballanced to the height with the exits from Presbyterie If you poyse your wallet well you will the end that hangs at your back the heavier But for answer to this Reason I refer the Reader to the former Chapter His 20. reason answered His twentieth Reason is somewhat of a differing strain from the rest The ground and bottome of it seems to be a desire of a plausible insinuation with the Assembly under a pretence of jealousie over them lest they should suffer in point of honour in case his Brethren should obtain a Toleration But first good A. S. why must it needs be thought in case it should be granted unto them that it was extorted by force of Reason or that all the Assembly were not able to answer your Brethren This suggestion smels of worse blood about the heart then all the Reasons hitherto Fearing it seems that all ingagements upon the Assembly in point of conscience to deny the Apologists a Toleration might fail and prove ineffectuall that way hee seeks here to ingage them in point of honour by way of reserve telling them in effect that howsoever their consciences might favour the Independenters in point of Toleration yet their credits and reputations would suffer by it Yet let the suggestion be but a little look'd into and it will be found to reflect no great matter of grace or commendation upon the Assembly it self For if no favour or courtesie can be thought to come from them but that which is extorted by reason and the deniall whereof they cannot answer it is a sign that they are not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. easie to be intreated full of mercy and good fruits which yet the Holy Ghost makes the standing characters of that wisdome which is from above James 3.17 Whereas hee adds that their opinion and demands are against all reason and that sundry of them could not deny as much and had nothing to say but that it was Gods Ordinance Wee answer first that what A. S. his standart is whereby he measures Reason we are not so well acquainted with him as to know but according to ours this assertion of his opens seven times wider against all reason then either the opinion or demands of his Antagonists First for their opinion we believe that somewhat more then non-sense or irrationalities hath been argued by themselves in the Assembly for it Is it like that very learned men and of abilities to dispute their opinion in any Assembly in Europe which are A. S. own letters of recommendation on their behalf should rise up to defend an opinion that is contrary to all reason And somewhat like unto reason at least so called amongst our vulgar apprehensions hath been said for it in the preceding part of this Discourse And secondly for their Demands though A. S. doth not inform us what they are or wherein that fiery contestation against all reason which he findes in them consists yet we suppose he means their suing for a Toleration that high misdemeanor for which he hath judged them now these ten times Was it or is it or would it be against all reason for the poor Protestant Churches in France to sue for a Toleration in the state if it were not granted unto them without suing Or is it not much more agreeable to reason that Protestant Churches should be tolerated in a Protestant State then in a State Pontificiall especially in such a Protestant State of which they have so eminently deserved as the Apologists and their Churches and men of their judgement have done of this as was briefly touched in the beginning of this Chapter Or is it against all reason that those persons in the Low-countreys between whose judgements there is that known variety of differences in matters of Religion and which concern the worship of God being not able so well to accommodate themselves for livelihood and subsistence in any other State with the freedome of their consciences should desire a Toleration in that Suppose those men of your judgement of whom you speak pag. 10. who were as you there say condemned to death for their Discipline ready to be executed and were afterwards exiled into forrain countryes Suppose I say these men had desired a Toleration in their own countrey of those who thus unreasonably dealt with them had they violated all Rules and Principles of Reason by such a desire But the truth is that the assertion is so notoriously against all reason that it is scarce consistent with reason to bestow so much pen in answer to it There is but one only supposition to make either reason or truth of it if it be granted it may passe for both If the desires of some Presbyterians be All Reason and nothing reason but they then both the Opinion and Demands of the Apologists must be acknowledged to be against all Reason But otherwise I know no principle or rule of reason at all so much as discourtesied by either Secondly whereas you say that sundry of themselves could not deny it and had nothing to say c. First certain I am that some of them have absolutely denied any such confession Secondly the acknowledgement it selfe looks no more like any of the rest then a meer fiction doth the Relator I beleeve that upon inquirie it will be found a misprision of truth For doth it not sound aloud incredibilitie that men of sufficient abilities to dispute their opinion in any Assembly in Europe should confesse their Opinion and Demands to be against all reason But such stones as these are fit for A. S. his building Thirdly whereas you say that they could never shew their opinion cut of Gods word we answer that they have often shewed it but God and men it seems are not yet agreed to have it so generally seen as is to be desired but our hope is that the agreement will be concluded between them in due time Fourthly and lastly you conclude this reasâ—â— with this undertaking that if it your brethrens opinion we