Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	believe_v	church_n	err_v	1,967	5	9.6697	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A87879	An answer to the Marques of Worcester's last paper; to the late King. Representing in their true posture, and discussing briefly, the main controversies between the English and the Romish Church. Together with some considerations, upon Dr Bayly's parenthetical interlocution; relating to the Churches power in deciding controversies. To these is annext, Smectymnuo-Mastix : or, short animadversions upon Smectymnuus in the point of lyturgie. / By Hamon L'Estrange, Esqr.	L'Estrange, Hamon, 1605-1660.	1651 (1651)	Wing L1187; Wing L1191; Thomason E1218_2; ESTC R202717	68,906	120

be given in an Answer to all particulars cannot be required But this Answer to that Reply cannot comprehend the whole Arrest and content of this Tract there are some Animadversions relating to Dr. Bayly which I have stitcht as an Appendix and Lean-to to that Answer the word is I think concinn and apt enough it relating to that Doctor whom his Majesty suspected a a Lean-to to the Marques And truly that Discourse of his which I have undertaken speaks him little lesse wherein his Majesty not the Marques steps in as Opponent he that pretended so much b wariness of seeming to present the late King worsted was not wary at all of seeming to present himself according to the idiome of speech Worster'd Christian Charity bids me repute him under a notion more modified than Papist but Truth it self enforceth me to say he erreth in some particulars with the Church of Rome yet were he more than popish Papist profest my witness is in Heaven c ill will to the man I bear none a Member of the Church he is and d as the Church is a name of Vnity not of Separation so I heartily beseech God that all those who are Members of that Church and consigned Christians may be of one minde in the Lord and keep the Vnity of the spirit in the bond of peace which peace the Lord of peace himself give us always by all means Vale The late Kings Paper in answer to the Marques of Worcester Introductorily discussing some Controversies between the English and the Romish Church MY Lord I have perused your Paper whereby I finde that it is no strange thing to see Error triumph in Antiquity and flourish all those Ensignes of Vniversality Succession Vnity Conversion of Nations c. in the face of Truth and nothing was so familiar either with the Jews or Gentiles as to besmear the face of Truth with spots of Novelty for this was Jeremiahs case Jer. 44. 16. viz. As for the word which thou hast spoken unto us in the Name of the Lord we will not hearken unto thee but we will certainly do whatsoever thing hath gone forth of our own mouths to burn incense unto the Queen of Heaven and to powre out drink-offering unto her as we have done we and our fathers our Kings and our Princes in the Cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem as we have done there is Antiquity we and our fathers there is Succession In the Cities of Judah and Jerusalem there is Vniversality so Demetrius urged Antiquity and Vniversality for the goddess Diana viz. That her Temple should not be despised nor her Magnificence destroyed whom all Asia and the World Worshipped So Symmachus that wise Senator though a bitter Enemy to the Christians Servanda est inquit tot seculis fides sequendi sunt nobis parentes qui feliciter sequuti sunt suos we must defend that Religion which hath worn out so many Ages and follow our Fathers steps who have so happily followed theirs So Prudentius would have put back Christianity it self viz. Nunc dogma nobis Christianum nascitur post evolutos mille demum Consules Now the Christian Doctrine begins to spring up after the revolution of a thousand Consul-ships But Ezekiel reades us another Lecture Ne obdurate cervices vestras ut patres vestri cedite manum Jehovae ingredimini sanctuarium ejus quod sanctificavit in saeculum colite Jehovam Deum vestrum Be not stiff-necked as your fore-fathers were resist not the mighty God enter into his Sanctuary which he hath consecrated for ever and worship ye the Lord your God Radbodus King of Phrygia being about to be baptized asked the Bishop what was become of all his Ancestors who were dead without being baptized The Bishop answered that they were all in Hell whereupon the King suddenly withdrew himself from the Font saying Ibi profecto me illis Comitem adjungam Thither will I go unto them no less wise are they who had rather err with Fathers and Councels than rectifie their understanding by the Word of God and square their Faith according to its Rules Our Saviour Christ saith we must not so much hearken to what hath been said by them of old time Matth. 21. 12. as to that which he shall tell you where Auditis dictum esse antiquitis is exploded and Ego dico vobis is come in its place which of them all can attribute that credit to be given unto him as is to be given to Saint Paul Yet he would not have us to be followers of him more than he is a follower of Christ 1 Cor. 11. 1. Wherefore if you cry never so loud Sancta mater Ecclesia sancta mater Ecclesia the holy mother Church holy mother Church as of old they had nothing to say for themselves but Templum Domini Templum Domini the Temple of the Lord the Temple of the Lord we will cry as loud again with the Prophet quomodo facta est meretrix Urbs fidelis How is the faithfull City become an Harlot If you vaunt never so much of your Roman Catholick Church we can tell you out of Saint John that she is become the Synagogue of Sathan neither is it impossible but that the house of prayers may be made a Den of Thieves you call us Hereticks we answer you with Saint Paul Acts 24. 14. After the way which you call Heresie so worship we the God of our fathers believing all things which were written in the Law and the Prophets I will grant you that all those marks which you have set down are marks of the true Church and I will grant you more that they were belonging to the Church of Rome but then you must grant me thus much that they are as well belonging to any other Church who hold and maintain that Doctrine which the Church of Rome then maintained when she wrought those Conversions and not at all to her if she have changed her first Love and fallen from her old Principles for it will do her no good to keep possession of the Keys when the Lock is changed now to try whether she hath done so or no there can be no better way than by searching the Scriptures for though I grant you that the Catholick Church is the white in that Butt of Earth at which we all must aim yet the Scripture is the heart centre or peg in the midst of that white that holds it up from whence we must measure especially when we are all in the white We are all of us in gremio Ecclesiae so that Controversies cannot be decided by the Catholick Church but by the Scriptures which is the thing by which the nearness nnto Truth must be decided for that which must determine Truth must not be fallible but whether you mean the consent of Fathers or the Decrees of General Councels they both have erred I discover no Fathers nakedness but deplore their infirmities that we

censure of the Romish Church and his Lordship hopes to prove it out of Scripture If you neglect to hear this Church you shall be a Heathen and a Publican Matth. 18. 17. This Church in the Marques his sense is the Church of Rome and I grant it is but not the Church of Rome onely for it is as well the English the French the Geneva or any other particular Church and admit it were onely the Church of Rome yet the matters wherein that Church is to be obeyed are not Articles of Faith neither the very Text tells us it is onely in points of scandal and breach of unity in civil matters His next Scripture is Ephes. 5. 27. where the Church shall be presented unto Christ a glorious Church not having spot or wrinkle Here is a Church I yield that cannot err but it is not the Romish Catholique Church no neither Romish nor Catholique if his Lordship means the Catholique militant Church for it is a Church that can neither err nor sin without spot and therefore their own Salmeron says It must be understood of the Triumphant Church and if his Lordship thought otherwise Augustine would have told him he was a Pelagian M. We say the Church hath been always visible you deny it Our Church saith nothing of this Point and therefore if I say any thing it must be ex abundanti dictum more than Covenants yet something I will say and something shall Liberius say too as a Salmeron quoteth him replying to Constantius his boast of the multitude of Arrians Non refert numerum esse magnum aut parvum nam Judaeorum Ecclesia in Babylone constituta ad tres pueros redacta fuit No matter whether the number be small or great for the Jewish Church in Babylon was reduced to three And at this time Liberius was Pope of Rome and because I am faln upon this time I would gladly have an answer where the Visibility of the Romish Church was unless they mean a Visibility of Heresie when Liberius himself excommunicated Athanasius and turn'd Arrian Nay more and to the very point where was the Visibility of the Catholique and true Church it self at that time but onely in that Pillar of Faith c Athanasius I confess Nazianzen says his Church had it {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} most singular to it self to be preserved from drowning in the Arrian Deluge but the visible shock and storm of Persecution no man stoutly withstood and overcame but Athanasius onely His Fathers Origen in Matth. hom 30. saith The Church is full of light but that light is fulgor veritatis he himself tells us so the brightness of Truth no external splendor what 's this to a visible Church Cyprian the Church of God encompassed with light sheds her beams through all the World Cyprian's light is like Origen's an inward light too and were it as the Sun an outward Light it would not shine always in every Horizon and where it doth shine it may sometimes be eclipsed Chrysost. Hom. 4. in Esay 6. speaketh of the duration and perpetuity not of the Visibility of the Church and saith It is easier for the Sun's light to be extinguished than for the Church utterly to be destroy'd or if you will {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} to disappear so saith Chrysostome and so say we too the Church wil be always visible for an Invisibility we hold not absolutly but comparatively it may be reduced to so inconsiderable a number as in regard of the paucity and fewness of the Professors the World will not own it under the notion of a Church Again Persecution may so controul the outward Profession of the Gospel that nothing belonging to external Government Discipline and Exercise of the Ministery shall be performed otherwise than by stealth and in a clandestine way Augustine speakes of the Visibility of the Church in his time that it was then visible not that it had been before or should be after him always so visible M. We hold the perpetual universality of the Church and that the Church of Rome is such a Church you deny it Our Church denieth not the Catholique or universal Church 't is an Article of the three Creeds she holds That the Romish is such a Church she doth deny because 't is in none of their Creeds and yet if it be in the Scripture I dare promise for her she shall and will believe it As to that place of Psalm 2. 8. I will give thee the Heathen for thine Inheritance and the uttermost parts of the Earth for thy Possession It is a most clear Prediction of the calling of the Gentiles and that all the World shall be subdued by the power of the Gospel so here 's an Universality of Christ's Kingdom but not of the Romish Church But I confess the mischief is here is a Tibi dabo I will give thee and wheresoever the Church of Rome findes that she takes all for her own that follows Let us observe now Rom. 1. 8. I thank my God that your Faith is spoken of throughout the whole World That is to all the World it is published that Rome hath embraced the Christian Faith Is she the Catholique Church because of that sure this Text no way enforceth any such Illation for we are told as much of the Church of Thessalonica 1 Thess. 1. 8. that their Faith to God-ward is spread abroad in every place and then we must mend our Creed and say I believe the two Catholique Churches that of Thessalonica and that of Rome For his human Authorities take this note by the way and they are soon cleared The Primitive Church held that consent and unity in Doctrine made all Churches in truth to be One however distinguished by names The Church of Christ is One saith Cyprian divided into several Members through the whole World and this Unity made them al not only One but Apostolical and Primitive also for Omnes primae omnes Apostolicae dum unam omnes probant unitatem saith Tertullian All were Primitive all Apostolical whilest all shewed the same Unity yea and it made all Churches though otherwise particular Catholique too Therefore the Church of Alexandria was called the Catholique Church by Arsenius so Augustine was Catholicae Ecclesiae Episcopus Bishop of that Church which held the Catholique Faith and in this sense Rome was anciently stiled the Catholique Church So it was truly said by Hierome It is all one to say the Roman Faith and the Catholique Faith but though it was true then it is not true now for the Then and Now Roman Church are two M. We hold the Unity of the Church to be necessary in all points of Faith you deny it Our Church is here silent yet an Unity the Protestants hold too in essential matters of Faith and hold it so that if this Unity be a Note of the true Church they have there

is the Rule of Faith and after he tells you why it must be so because a Rule must be certain and known for if it be not certain it is no Rule and if not known it is no Rule to us now there is nothing more certain or more known than the Scriptures Compare the Marques his infallible Rule of Traditions with this saying of Bellarmine and it will appear they have little of a Rule in them For certainly what is more uncertain When the Primitive Church it self within a hundred years after the Apostolical Times was split into that great Schism about the Celebration of Easter which was but a meer Tradition and was not reconciled till the Councel of Nice And for being known nothing is less seeing in the very Church of Rome they are not yet agreed which are Apostolical Traditions The Scriptures he urgeth are Rom. 12. 6. And there is a Rule of Faith I grant and an infallible one too but it is not praeter besides nor extra without the Scripture but that mentioned in the Scriptures Gal. 6. 16. there is a Rule but a Rule of Doctrine concerning Christian Liberty in the point of Circumcision no Rule of Faith Rom. 6. 17. there is neither Rule nor Faith but a form of Doctrine delivered to them by the preaching of the Gospel what he urged out of 2 Cor. 10. 12 16. is so extremely and grosly impertinent as sure when he cast his eye upon that place his Lordship was either entring into or newly raised from such a nap wherein the Doctor found him M. But lest we should mis-understand what this Rule of Faith is the Marques tells us By it is not meant the holy Scriptures for that cannot do it and he gives the Reason whilest there are unstable men who wrest this way and that way to their own destruction So that Scripture is now with the Marques no infallible Rule at all Traditions have outed her clear and the Reason inferreth plainly that we must not walk abroad at high noon-day without a Torch because some men notwithstanding the Sun shined clear have fallen into a Ditch Of farr more weight I must needs confess are his Humane than Divine Authorities which yet shall not pass without my Animadversions Irenaeus lib. 4. c. 45. speaking of those who succeeded the Apostles saith Hi fidem nostram custodiunt Scripturas sine periculo exponunt These preserve our Faith and expound the Scriptures without peril of error Observe first 't is hi these men who were so near the Apostles as they were instructed by those who were contemporaries with them as himself says Then again 't is exponunt they do expound not that they are infallible or cannot expound otherwise what is this to the infallibility of the Church 1600 years after Christ Irenaeus is full enough in this point and point-blank against the Marques a To expound Scripture decording to Scripture is the truest way and least perilous As for Tertullian his meaning is thus made out b The Heretiques with whom the Church was to dispute did not receive all Scriptures for Canonical and those they did receive intire they did not or if intire they feigned strange Interpretations of their own fancies and a corrupt sense prejudiceth Truth as much as a corrupt Text were they accused for vitiating and falsifying the Text or for introducing absured Expositions They retorted the same Charge upon their Adversaries In this case of malicious obstinacy the Church had onely this remedy to provoke them to declare who founded their Churches for if it appeared they were the Apostles there was no more to be said it being in those days c constat and evidence enough of Truth that their Churches were of Apostolical foundation As for Vincentius having spoke before of the perfection of Scripture with a satis superque that it is all-sufficient and to spare he supposeth it may be demanded what need is there then of the Churches sense to which he answereth because all men understand it not in one sense and alike therefore it is necessary saith he that the line of interpretation be directed according to the rule of the Catholique and Ecclesiastical sense Now what is intended by a Catholique sense is the Question the Papists will have it to be Tradition unwritten but we say it is that which the Universal Church hath always held for Vincentius explains his Catholique to be that a which always every where and of all men hath been believed and this Rule we willingly admit in points essential where variety and different senses are inconsistent but in other points of less concernment we say with Saint Augustin b If any thing be set down in sacred Scriptures more obscurely as an exercise for the mindes of Believers it is commendable if it be interpreted many ways provided no way absurdly M. In matters of Faith Christ bids us do and observe whatsoever they bid us who sit in Moses seat Matth. 23. 2. therefore there is something more to be observed than Scripture True it is to be observed that his Lordship here takes observing and doing to be matters of Faith which I never read in Scripture nor anywhere else But are we to do whatsoever they bid us who sit in Moses seat Surely no if they have any Commission it is not greater than that of Moses was and his was after the tenour of the words delivered him in the Mount Exod. 34. 27. And therefore Christ saith In vain ye worship me teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of men Mat. 15. 9. Wil you not as wel believe what you hear Christ say as what ye hear his Ministers write Yes sure and much more for what Christ says is truth it self believe it I must but what his Ministers write is many times erroneous and then credat Judaeus Apella non ego believe it who will for me Their Commission is All things which I have commanded you M. We say the Scriptures are not easie to be understood you say they are Our Church saith it is full as well of low valleys plain ways and easie for every man to walk in as also of high hills and mountains which few men can climb unto And this the Marques in a manner grants p. 129. saying 't is easie in aliquibus but not in omnibus locis in some places not every where M. We say this Church cannot err you say it can What his Lordship means by this Church we might demand had he not told us at first to what Church he would lead his Majesty and that was the Romish Church of which our Church makes no bones to say It hath erred not onely in living and matters of ceremonies but also in matters of faith Here she is I confess somewhat bolder with the Church of Rome than the Marques was with his Majesty But perhaps the Church of England for she is not infallible may err in her