Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	believe_v	church_n	err_v	1,967	5	9.6697	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A45831	Rome is no rule, or, An answer to an epistle published by a Roman Catholic who stiles himself Cap. Robert Everard and may serve for an answer to two Popish treatises, the one entituled The question of questions, and the other Fiat lux, out of which books the arguments urged in the said epistle against the authority of the Scriptures and the infallibility of the Roman Church are collected : in which answer, the authority of the Scriptures is vindicated and the arguments for the Roman infallibility refuted / by J.I.	Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674.	1664 (1664)	Wing I1103B; ESTC R41015	38,546	134

he cannot reclaim him he must tell the Church which cannot be understood for any but that particular Church among whom he resides which you say are such as may err in judgment 3 By the same parity of reason a single private man cannot err because the Text saith he ought to be heard if he admonish his brother of his fault ver 15 16 17. and that it is his brothers sin if he do not hear him and the Text further saith If his brother do hear him that he hath gained his brother But if this brother might err then he might err in admonishing and the admonished person in stead of being gained to the Truth might be gained to an errour This is the sum of your Argument I am to hear the Church therefore the Church cannot err might you not as Logically infer that because I am to hear a single private brother therefore a single private brother cannot err and by this you would make all the Sons of your Church infallible like the Pope your Father and by this rule Parents are infallible because they must be heard by their children Your next Scriptures are Mat. 28.20 Lo I am with you always to the end of the world and Joh. 24.16 I will pray the Father and he will send you another Comforter that he may abide with you for ever even the Spirit of Truth which the World cannot receive and ver 26. The Comforter which is the Holy Ghost which the Father will send in my name he shall teach you all things and bring all things into your remembrance whatsoever I have said unto you and Chap. 16.17 I have many things to say unto you but you cannot hear them now howbeit when the Spirit of Truth is come he will guide you into all Truth From which you infer that if Christ and his Spirit should be with his Apostles for ever to lead them into all Truth it follows they shall be preserved from all errour To which I answer 1. That this Text in St. Mathew cannot be a good argument for you because you say you have lost the Original of St. Mathews Gospel and cannot tell whether he that did translate it was an honest man or no. 2 The Spirit of Christ might preserve the Apostles from all Errour and yet not be engaged to secure the Church from erring to the end of the World But 3 I answer further If this promise was made that the Holy Spirit should lead the Church in all Ages into all Truth it doth not follow as I have said that it should lead them irresistably though it might lead them sufficiently But 4. May I not as well infer that because the Spirit was promised to convince the World of sin because they believe not in Christ that therefore all the world cannot be but effectually and irresistably convinced as you may say that because the Spirit is promised to lead into all Truth that therefore the Church cannot err but must be effectually so led 5 It is called the Spirit of Truth which the World cannot receive meaning notorious and wicked men Now then this Spirit some of those Popes which you call the Apostles successors could not have because many of them have been notoriously and confessedly wicked all which doth plainly shew that this promise of the Spirit was made to direct and guide us into a further knowledge of the Truth till we come to be perfect in Christ upon condition that we are faithful in what we already know Like unto that promise Joh. 17.17 If any man do his will he shall know of his doctrine and to this agrees the Rhemi●● Testament translating that Text of John 14.15 16. If you love me keep my comandements and I will pray the Father and he will give you another Paraclete that he may abide with you for ever Now how can I be infallible that the Pope is thus guided unless I do infallibly know that he loves God and keeps his Commandements 6 You say 〈◊〉 into all Truth implies preserving from all errour but this follow not not more then because the Scriptures say Gods goodness leads to Repentance that therefore all men should be preserved from impenitency And lastly If leading into all truth implies preserving from all Error how comes it to pass that since your Church as you say is an infallible guide into all Truth that she doth not preserve all her sons from all Errour And if you shall say see doth guide them all sufficiently though not efficiently although that be false yet you have answered your self For though Gods Spirit and goodness be sufficient to lead to Truth and Repentance yet it doth not follow but there are as sad experience teacheth multitudes of erring and impenitent persons Your next Text is Ephes 4.11 He gave some Prophets some Evangelists some Pastors and some Teachers for perfecting the Saints for the work of the Ministry for the edifying the body of Christ till we come in the union of the faith and ver 14. that we be no more children in understanding c. From which Text you would prove that the succession of the Apostles in the Church was to preserve people from being tossed to and fro with every wind of Doctrine but what then doth this prove the Church cannot err This means was used by God for the perfecting of Saints and yet we see that they are full of imperfections Thus God may teach and the Church not learn Gods Spirit may lead and the Church like Rome may be refractory Your last Text is 1 Tim. 3.15 The Church of the living God the Pillar and ground of Trust. Hence you would infer that the Church cannot err because we may securely relye upon her as upon a Pillar To which I answer That these words do not respect the universal Church as you would have it but the particular Church which Timothy had the oversight of in which Paul admonisheth him how he should behave himself But 2. If this were granted that the universal Church is here meant and not a particular Church I answer that this proves nothing to your purpose because Churches and People receive their denomination ordinarily from what they should be in point of Duty and not from what they are by necessity Thus the Disciples are called the Salt of the Earth because they were in duty to be so and not that there was a necessity that they could not have been otherwise else it had been in vain to threaten them that if they lost their savour they should be good for nothing but to be trodden under foot In like manner the Church is the Pillar of Truth and ground of in point of Duty and yet this doth not hinder but she may neglect and violate this Duty and become the Teacher of Errour But lastly The Church may be the Pillar and Ground of Truth not only because she should be so but because in all Ages she is so in that she teacheth and maintaineth

mouth of the Pope or Chief Pastour then I querie whether it may not be possible for him to erre since many Popes have been Hereticks and have taught contrary to the Law of God as that Pope did that told King Henry the 8th he might marry his Brothers Wife Sixthly But suppose the Pope did not erre in giving me the true sense of Councils and their Decrees then I querie How every private person shall have his judgment informed in the Truth without going to Rome Seventhly If you say he may be resolved at home by the Pastours in several places then I querie whether those Pastours may not erre since it is manifest that the several Pastours and Churches of Asia did erre and then how can the members of this Church be sure they are under an Infallible conduct to Eternal Life and that these Pastours teach according to the Doctrine of the Infallible Church VIII Since you say that General Councils Lawfully Called by the Pope their chief astour cannot erre I querie How I shall be infallibly assured when Councils are so called Since sometimes the Pope may come in by Simony and Usurpation as Boniface the 3 did and sometimes be a Heritick as Lyberius was who subscribed the Excommunication of Athanasius in which cases they ceasing to be lawfull Popes I would then know how I can be sure of a lawful Council IX Since there must be alway a lawfull succession of Popes to make a lawfull succession of True Ministers How shall I know infallibly that the Minister that I heat did lawfully so succeed and this I would know because if he be not a lawfull Minister I may not lawfully hear him And since that sometimes Hereticks have been Popes and sometimes the Chair hath been Usurped and once a Woman was Pope and sometimes there hath been two at once How shall I that am to hear a private Pastour know whether his Ordination did succeed from a lawfull Pope and not from some of these X. How shall I know what Council I may infallibly adhere unto since one Council hath opposed another and some cleave to one Council and some to another the Roman Church they test in the Niceen Council the Greek Church they rest in the Council of Arminum both which are contrary to the other how shall any one be assured of the truth of all those things with a divine certitude And yet you make the world believe that all your wayes are so plain that a fool cannot erre in them and that the Scriptures are doubtfull guides when no Religion in the World is perplexed with more doubts then yours XI If your Roman Church be this Infallible Church and all her Doctrines Infallible then I querie if it be not sinfull to doubt of the Truth of what she teacheth XII If it be not a sin to doubt of what your Church teacheth then why do you blame us for questioning your Infallibility XIII But if it be a sin to question the Churches Doctrine then how came the Baraeans to be commended for searching the Scriptures to see if what Paul preached was so or not and whether might not their searching the Scriptures have run them upon all those inconveniencies of mistaking by false Pointings corrupted Copies false Interpretations to the multiplying of Sects and Hereticks if it might why are they commended for searching XIV How can the reason of the Jews erring be because they did not know the Scriptures if the knowledge of them would not have been a sufficient guide to the Truth XV. But if you shall say we cannot know the Scriptures but by the true Church then I querie how shall I know the true Church since there are as many different opinions about which is the true Church as there is about which is the true sense of Scriptures XVI If you say the Scriptures decide the question and guide us to the true Church then whether this be not to speak Daggers to prove the knowledge of the Scriptures by the Church and the knowledge of the Church by the Scriptures XVII But if you say we know the Church by universal Tradition then I querie whether your Church can be so known since a great part of the Christian World hath and doth disown her witness the Greek Church together with most of the Churches in Europe XVIII Whether then you can shew such an universal Tradition for your Pope and Church as we can do for the Scriptures to which we do well to take heed as to a light that shineth in a dark place till the day dawn and the Day-star arise in our hearts XIX Where was the Infallibility of the Roman Church in the time of Athanasius when he complained totus mundus Arianizat that the whole world Ariantized XX. I demand Where will be the Visibility and Infallibility of your Roman Church in the time of the great Antichrist which your Rhemish Annotators say shall come towards the end of the World and abolish the publick Exercise of all Religion wherein consisteth the worship of the true God and shall pull down all kind of Religious worship save that which shall be done to himself alone See Rhem. Annot on 2 Thess 2.4 How will your Church appear conspicuously and universally to be a guide to Fools infallibly in those days FINIS

and rule it must be meant of Authentical and Original Writings or of infallible Translations of them into several Languages c. say you In like manner I say if the Decrees of General Councils are infallible it must be understood of the Original and authentick writings wherein those Decrees are contained or of infallible Translations of them into several Languages since they were not given out in a Language that the Common people understand Now none will swear to use your own words pag. 20. that these are the Originals of the Decrees of those Councils some of them being more then a thousand years old Neither will any swear that the Translations of these Decrees agree with their Originals Ergo The Decrees and Determinations of Councils cannot be an unquestionable and infallible Guide to true faith Thus you make people believe that if they come to your Church they shall have every thing certain but I do demand if any should follow your advice how they shall be thus assured since your Church hath been so palpably negligent as to suffer whole Books to be lost and to suffer the Originals of those that remain to be corrupted and also to suffer infinite variety of reading to come into them by which you say It cannot be discerned infallibly which is the true reading and which is the false And whereas you say That we are so far from having St. Mathews Original that we know not what Language it was writ in or whether he who transtated it into Greek was an honest man or not I answer If your Church were as you pretend the sole Keeper of the Scriptures they are worthy to die as David said of Abner because they kept their Master no better Are they the Church to which no unfaithfulness can have access when they have lost the Original of St. Mathews Gospel These are worse then the unprofitable Servant for in the day of accompt though he did not improve his Talent yet he did not lose it but could say to his Master take that which is thine own But you that have been entrusted with the heavenly treasure of sacred Writings it seems cannot acquit your selves at this rate for you have lost the Original and cannot tell whether that Translation that you have was done by an honest Man or a Knave But further If this be true what becomes of that Text which you cite as the first-born of your strength Mat. 16.18 upon which you found your Churches infallibility for if one ask you how you prove the Church infallible you say by that Text Upon this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it But how do you prove it from this Text if as you say the Original is lost and you cannot tell whether he that translated it into the Greek was an honest man or no You come now pag. 22. to a sixth Reason which is but the same in effect with the former viz. That whatsoever is a sufficient rule must be plain and clear in all necessary points the Scriptures you say are not plain and clear in all necessary points therefore c. This is the sum of your Argument and for this you give divers instances of things necessary to salvation that are not set down in Scripture The first is in pag. 22.23 That it is not set down in Scripture what a Sacrament is and how many there be or whether there be any or no To this I answer That you strive about words for it is not necessary to salvation to believe that those institutions should be called Sacraments which are usually so called and if it were then it would be necessary that we should know what and how many Institutions should be so denominated but it sufficeth that those Institutions which we call Sacraments are plainly set down in Scripture together with the persons who should observe them and the manner how they should be observed You come to a second thing necessary to be believed that is not in Scripture namely That all the Books of the Holy Scriptures be the word of God This say is not absolutely necessary to salvation for it may be possible for one to believe all the matter of the Bible to be the Truth of God and thereupon be saved who may yet doubt whether every one of the Pen-men did write by inspiration And again When it is said and believed that all the material Objects of Faith and those divine Verities which Christ revealed to his Apostles and they to the Churches are laid down in Scripture It is manifest that the Scriptures themselves are excepted they being not received as the material objects of our faith but as the means of conveying them unto us and if a man did believe the Doctrine of salvation contained in the Scripture it should not hinder his salvation though he knew not whether there was any Scripture or no Again Many of those whom you Canonize did not allow of some part of the Scriptures and many whole Churches differed about the Authority of some Books which Churches must all be damned if the believing those Books had been necessary to salvation You proceed and say in the third place That it is necessary to salvation to believe the Scriptures to be the Word of God but this you say is not plainly set down in Scripture I answer as before This belief cannot be necessary where the Scriptures are not proposed for God doth not require men to believe upon pain of Damnation when he hath not given means in order therunto But 2. Whoever shall consult the excellent precepts the glorious promises together with that great Spirit of Holiness and Self-denial that is contained in the Scriptures must needs say that they have the image and superscription of heaven upon them and from thence be as certainly perswaded that God was the Author of them as if it had been written with the beam of the Sun that so many Books are the Word of God nay and more certain because That one sentence might sooner have been expunged or defaced out of the Scriptures then that Spirit of Light and Truth which breaths in the faces and consciences of men from all the quarters of them Your other instances that follow are such as we have either taken notice of already or else they are such that are not necessary to salvation and therefore are impertinently alledged to weaken the guidance and conduct of the Scripture in order to that blessed end But since you are so able to lay stumbling blocks in the way of the Scriptures that thereby men might stumble and fall let me see if you are as able to remove some stumbling blocks that lieth in the way to your infallible Church First Is not the Sacrament of Pennance as your Church teacheth necessary to salvation But secondly How can you be infallible that this Sacrament is administred by a true Priest for if it were not done by a true Priest then

all things necessary to salvation but yet she may for all that erre and be mistaken in some profitable points and as a Man may be a man that hath some lameness and deformity of Body so may the Church be a true Church though it may be corrupt in Doctrine and Practise which it will hardly be freed from till the day in which she shall be presented to her husband a chast spouse without spot or wrinkle or any such thing You proceed and in p. 30. Assigne a fifth Argument That the Church of God was the Rule and Judge and the Infallible Guide when Christ and his Apostles was upon the Earth From whence you would infer that it is so still Sir I can very well own the Antecedent and deny the Consequence But you say There is no Reason why the Church should not be so still unless it be said that the Apostles were Infallible Guides till the Canon of the Scripture was finished and that then Infallibility ceased c. But then you say what will be the Consequence if that the Canon of the sequence if that the Canon of the Scripture which the Apostles finished be now uncompleated by the loss of those Epistles and Parcels of the Apostles Writings which you say you have proved to be lost I Answer It will not follow that we shall need your bind guide if what you say were true But Secondly It follows that your Church is fallible because she hath not faithfully kept those Epistles that she saith were committed to her trust as I have told you once and again Thirdly Whereas you say p. 31 If we had the whole Canon yet it were not sufficient to decide all Controversies now on foot in matters of Faith Sir this is but the same over and over for doth it follow that because all Controversies are not decided that therefore the Scripture is not sufficient to decide them Surely then it follows your Church is not sufficient to decide all Controversies because the Controversie between the Jesuites and the Dominicans and the Franciscans and the Dominicans are not yet decided But Lastly You may as well say that the Grace of God doth not sufficiently teach Men to deny ungodliness and worldly last because the world lyes in wickedness as say the Scriptures are not sufficient to decide Controversies In Faith because Controversies in Faith are not decided This is your Romish Reasoning You come to your last Reason in pag. 32. and tell us Tell none of those difficulties that were proposed to prove the Scripture not to be the Rule are capable of being objected against the Church This Argument I have already Answered by shewing that the same and greater absurdities are objected against your Church But however I will Examine your First Reason since I have not yet met with it and that is Because the Church you say is capable of answering those ends for which it is proposed in that all that submit to it are of one Faith I Answer Then the Church of England may be this True Church for all that submit to her are of one Faith and if any are not it is because they submit not Your other Reasons have fallen under consideration in the Answering of your Arguments about the invalidity of the Scripture to which I refer the Reader You proceed to Answer an Objections pag. 32. which you say is made by those of the separation viz. that these Texts which you have urged are to be understood by the Church Triumphant and not of the Church Militant in the World And after you have set up this pupper of your own as you phrase it or man of straw you spend your 33 34 and 35 Pages to fight against it and therefore I shall do nothing to part the fray because that supposed notion is no friend of mine therefore I shall leave you to struggle with it as well as you can Having taken it for granted that there must be an infallible Church you come in the last place pag. 36. to resolve which is this Church and this you say is the Roman Church the summ of your Argument is this God hath appointed some Church upon Earth to be our Infallible Judge Ergo the Roman Church must needs be this Infallible Church because no Church differing from it that is none but the Roman Church can be this Infallible Church I Answer That this in effect is a Womans Reason to say that you are Infallible because you are Infallible for you say The Roman Church must needs be so because none but the Roman Church can be so No marvel you tell us Reason must not be our Judge for fear it should condemn such un-manlike Arguing But you add further pag. 37. That the Church which is appointed by God to be this Infallible Judge must needs have this condition that she own her Infallibility To which I Answer That then there was no True Church the first 300 years because that there was none that ever owned Infallibility in your sense unless it were the Church of Laodicea who like Rome said she was rich and increased in goods and had need of nothing whereas she was poor and miserable blind and naked So that the whole Argument is made up of presumption for you presume some Church is Infallible and then you presume your Church must needs be so because no other Church own themselves to be Infallible but you must needs give us a better Reason or else while we make any use of Reason we shall not believe it to be so for what if any Church should have the confidence to call themselves Infallible then your Argument would fall to the ground and the Question would then be to be decided either by the Word or by the Sword which of the two were truly Infallible Having Answered your Arguments I shall propose a few Questions to considerations wherewithall I shall conclude Whereas you say There must be an Infallible Church on Earth to judge of all differences and that this Church consists of a Pope reciding in and defining with a general Council in which it is represented by its Pastours out of all Nations I querie first How was the Church guided for the first 300 years in all which time there was no such general Council Secondly In what time and place was the Church ever so universally represented by her Pastours out of all Nations if not then how could she be Infallible being not so represented Thirdly If the Church be no otherwise Infallible but by general Councils as aforesaid then how can we be guided when there is no General Councils as at this day Fourthly If you say we may be guided by those Canons and Decrees which they made in their respective Sessions Then I demand how I shall rightly understand that those Laws and Canons are truly Translated and Interpreted since they were given out in a Language that I understand not Fifthly If you shall say I may know them from the