Infallibility and a supreme Authority in things of Faith As for the Decisions of your Popes and Councils it hath been observed by learned men of ours that they are also subject to mis-interpretation and that they have not been able so much as to compose any one of those Differences that have been and are still amongst you And indeed why should not God speak as plain as the Pope in what is absolutely necessary to be known Is it because he is not able or because he is not willing we should know the truth But Friend whilst you tax the Scripture with obscurity and make the people think 't is a dangerous Book see whether you do not give the lie to God himself who saith Ps 19.7 â— The Law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul the Testimony of the Lord is sure making wise the simple according to Rome it should have been making the simple to err The Statutes of the Lord are right rejoycing the heart the commandment of the Lord is pure enlightning the eye not blinding or darkning the eye Psal 119 105. In another place Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path Could any thing be more express against the charge of obscurity 2 Cor. 4.3 4. And so S. Paul saith If our Gospel be hid it is hid to them that perish in whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ who is the image of God should shine unto them It seems the Gospel hath a light that shines unto men and the devil endeavours to blind them that they may not see it and whether the Pope be not an useful instrument to that effect let them judge that are not yet quite blind Sure if there was so great a danger in reading the Scriptures God would not have commanded his people so absolutely to study his Law Christ would not have preached to the multitudes for his words might be misinterpreted as well spoken as written and the Apostles should not have directed their Epistles to all the people of Corinth Ephesus c. We should rather have been forbidden searching the Scriptures and sent to his Holiness to know what we must believe and do P. Sir you are tedious in your Reasons and Proofs and whereas I cite only one of our approved Doctors at a time and that in few words you bring me I don't know how many places of Scripture I had rather you would tell me what Luther or the Church of Geneva have resolv'd in these Controversies G. 'T would be to no purpose for we regard not their opinions nor those of any private men but as far as they agree with the truth Our Church is founded upon that Catholic and unchangeable truth which God hath revealed in the Sacred Books and which hath been and is still entertain'd by all those that own the Fundamentals of Christianity Therefore as I have told you 't will be the shortest way for me to back those Doctrins of our Church which oppose any of yours by the authority of Gods Revelations his most Holy Word which is a sufficient foundation for us to ground our faith upon P. As far as I can see you are run a great way off from us for we as many as own the Pope to be the Head and Monarch of the Church never mind what the Scripture saith we follow blind-fold the Judgment of our Church as a most infallible guide Bellar. de Rom. Pont. l. 4. c. 4. We believe that neither the Pope nor the particular Church of Rome can err in things of Faith Non solum Pontifex Romanus non potest errare in fide sed neque Romana particularis Ecclesia No Sir take it from Bellarmin Bellar. de Eccles l. â— c. 14. It is absolutely impossible that the Church should err in any thing whether it be necessary or not Nostra est sententia Ecclesiam absolute non posse errare nec in rebus absolute necessariis nec in aliis G. And you Sir take it from experience that the Church of Rome could and hath greatly erred in many things if it be an error to make huge additions to the antient Creeds and to go directly against the Word of God And though it be impossible that ever the Universal Church should forsake and deny the saving truths of Christian Religion because of the Promise of Christ Matth. 16.18 Yet any one particular Church or Society of Christians though never so great may err and that in Fundamentals as we know of some Pseudo-Councils that have broach'd or confirm'd damnable Heresies And accordingly the Scripture saith Rom. 3.4 Let God be true and every man a liar the Bishop of Rome himself is not excepted And doubtless if the Church of Rome was infallible and the only guide that can lead us to heaven God who hath revealed to us the way to happiness would not have omitted so essential a thing But instead of a command wholly to rely on the judgment of the Pope speaking ex Cathedra we are commanded to prove all things 1 Thess 5 2â— 1 Joh. â— 1 and to hold fast that which is good and again to try the spirits whether they be of God because many false Prophets are come out into the world Now how shall we try them but by the Word of God and if we find you do not follow it why should we any longer follow you Find me as many Texts out of Gods Word to prove that your great Bishop is infallible and that we are all bound to believe every thing he saith as I have produc'd already for the Divine Authority of Scripture and its sufficiency to bring us unto Salvation and then we 'll weigh them together and my faith shall follow the heavier Scale But when we prove and demonstrate that you err and go directly against Scripture for you to come and say that it is impossible because you are infallible and free from all error is to my thinking a very odd and unsatisfactory answer P. Well if you talk of Scripture till tomorrow I am sure ours is the Antient Catholic Church without the which there is no salvation But your Religion is a new upstart you cannot shew me where it was and the Professors of it two hundred years ago G. As for the Professors where they were and that there were many even in the highth of Popery is a long Historical labour but ready done to my hand by several learned men the Author of Catalogus testium Verit. Abbot Vsher Fox White c. They were in the Eastern and Greec Churches much larger than that of Rome they were amongst you some declar'd and marty'd for it some for peace sake living in the Communion of your Church and some conceled for fear of your cruelty sighing in secret for Liberty and Reformation But you may satisfie your self fully in their Books As for our Religion It was
where it had been above a thousand years in the Holy Scripture And suppose what is utterly false that soon after its being written all Christian Churches had been so corrupted as to own fifteen hundred years together those Errors which now are amongst you yet still the Scripture had been the same as much to be obeyed and followed as if it had always been so 2 King 22. When Josiah had found the Book of the Law he did not fling it by because it had been hid and neglected during the reign of Manasseh and Amon his Fathers but he caused it to be read before all the people Ibid. 23. that they might observe what was conteined in it So now we have the Holy Scriptures read and preached to us we must not reject them to follow the Customs of some of our Fore-Fathers in whose time they were hid and disregarded for they are as much the Rule of Faith as if they had never been disown'd But I say farther that our Religion was in those Churches in the East and South which never own'd Popery and even amongst you our Religion was professed you believed all along those three Creeds which you and we do still retein which contein the Articles of our Faith but not the new additions which are particular to Rome The Popes universal Supremacy and his Infallibility Transubstantiation Worshipping of Images Purgatory Indulgences c. These are neither in Scripture nor in the first Councils nor in the Writings of the Antient Fathers not so much as in your Creeds an evident mark of their novelty but in the late Councils and Constitutions of the Popes We confess indeed that there is an universal Church out of which there is no salvation according to that known saying of S. Cyprian Deum non potest c. He can be none of Gods children who is not a son of the Church But that Church is the Christian not the Roman Church and to know which is the Christian Church or which is the purest of Christian Churches for they are all Christian in some measure that own Christ we must not consult humane Histories for they cannot inform us of that and if they could we must not build our faith upon mens report De Sacâ—a l. 2. c. 21. Bellarmin saith of humane Histories Faciunt tantum humanam fidem cui falsam subesse potest that they only beget a human saith which may be erroneous Wherefore in the Controversie betwixt us which is the purest Church we must not search old Records and Chronicles to see which was the oldest the most visible or the most large and flourishing Church that is not the Question and if it were still human Histories cannot be the ground of a Christian Faith but we must examin which agrees best with Holy Scripture which we all acknowledge to be the Word of God for no doubt the true Church wherein Salvation may be had is that which holds that Doctrin which God himself hath reveled to Mankind whatever her condition may have been in times past P. There may be something considerable in what you say but you Hereties have strange cunnings and subtilties to justifie your Opinions and yet still for all you have said you are no better than Rebels against your spiritual Sovereign you are Schismatics undutiful Children that have forsaken your Mother the Church The true and only Church wherein Salvation is to be obtein'd guided and governed by the Vicar of Christ upon earth our holy Father the Pope Vna est tantum Ecclesia sub regimine unius Christi in terris Vicarii Romani Pontific is Bellar. de Eccl. l 3. c. 2. But pray do not make such a tedious Discourse as you have just now G. Good Sir sometimes short Questions cannot be answered in few words I could propose one to you much like that as you put to me which I believe would take a great deal of your time to answer that is Where your particular Religion your sacrificing of the real and corporal body and bloud of Christ for the sins of the living and the dead your Worshipping Images and Saints and making them your Intercessors your Purgatory Indulgences c. Where was all that in the time of Christ and his Apostles Whereabout can it be found in Scripture or in the antient Creeds or in the four first General Councils or in the three or four first Centuries But I will not put you to so long and impossible a Task As for our forsaking the Communion of the Church of Rome we were absolutely bound and in a manner forc'd to do it because of the many errors which had crept and been brought into it by the Ignorance Pride Avarice and Ambition of the late Popes of Rome and their Partizans and which were confirm'd by your Church and defended with that violence that it was death to any man to speak in the least against them Now you know 't is a Rule agreed on of all sides that he is not guilty of Schism that separates but he that gives a just cause of Separation wherfore I retort the charge upon you of being Schismatics except you can prove by the Word of God those Doctrins of yours we have rejected to be Divine and Orthodox for we have left your Church upon this account that you had perverted the truth of God and added many false opinions to it which ye impos'd upon the people as if they had been Articles of Faith And we find it in Scripture Ro. 16.17 Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the Doctrin which ye have learned and avoid them 't is not said except it be the Church of Rome And in another place Gal. 1.8 Though we or an angel from heaven preach unto you beyond or over and above in the Greec 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the vulgar praeterquam quod what we have preached let him be accursed the Pope himself you see is not excepted Again we have left the Communion of your Church because it was Schismatic itself in that it had forsaken the Doctrin taught and believed in the Primitive Church We have come out of Rome to return into the more antient and universal Church We have left the Pope to follow Christ and his Apostles and we have forsaken you no farther than you had forsaken the truth The antient Creeds the first Councils many good and Fundamental Doctrins we hold together in these we hold Communion with you We reject your Communion only in those new Doctrins which ye have superadded to the antient and divine Faith of Christians And so likewise we rebel not against the Pope only we set God above him I 'll still acknowledge him to be a Bishop and the Patriarch of the West and perhaps I had been civil enough never to have disputed his Infallibility and spiritual Sovereignty though I find nothing for it in Scripture had I not found that he hath really erred and that very
est status necessitatis potest per se immediate procedere dande illius regnum alteri Orthodoxo principi vel primo victori Orthodoxo illud assignando ut Stephanus Papa transtulit imperium à Graecis ad Germanos Innocentius quartus interdixit regni administrationem Regi Portugaliae fratrem ejus substituens c. So likewise Cardinal Bellarmine doth teach That though the Pope as Pope may not usually yet that as Supreme Spiritual Prince he may for the good of souls dispose of Kingdoms as he thinks good take them away from one and give them to another Non potest Papa ut Papa ordinarie c. tamen potest mutare regna uni auferre atque alteri conferre tanquam summus Princeps Spiritualis si id necessarium sit ad animarum salutem For you must know That in the Church the Ecclesiastick and the Civil Power are as in Man the Spirit and the Flesh and that Kingdoms and Governments are not immediately of God but of Men whereas the Power of the Bishop of Rome comes immediately from God Bell. de Rom. Pont. l. 5. c. 6. Vt se habent in bomine spiritus caro sic se habent in Ecclesia potestas politica Ecclesiastica regna non sunt immediate à Deo instituta sed ab hominibus Pontificatus autem à Deo immediate est institutus And so The Pope hath power to dispose of all temporal things belonging to all Christians in general Pontifex Romanus in ordine ad bonum spirituale habet summam potestatem disponendi de temporalibus rebus omnium Christianorum And according to that unlimited Power in the Head the Body of the Clergy enjoys great Priviledges They are above or at least equal to King and Princes and therefore not bound to obey them neither by Divine nor Humane right Ibid. Respectu clericorum non sunt principes superiores potestates ac proinde non tenentur clerici principibus parere neque jure divino neque humano nisi quantum ad leges quasdam directivas i. e. non obligatione eoactiva And so The Goods and Estates of Clergy-men as well Temporal as Ecclesiastick are and ought to be free from Taxes and all duties to Princes and they themselves ought not to be judged by any Civil Magistrate although they do not observe Civil Laws Bell. de Clericis L. 1. c. 28. Non possunt Clerici à judice saeculari judicari etiamsi leges civiles non servent Bona clericorum tam Ecclesiastica quam saecularia libera sunt ac merito esse debent à tributis principum saecularium G. Yes I see your Pope is a petty God upon Earth his Power is not to be controul'd and whatever he doth his Almightiness and Infallibility will bear him out and make the thing good and just though it seem never so much otherwise But sure in this he is none of Christs Vicar the meek and humble JESVS would not so much as divide the Inheritance betwixt two Brethren much less dispose of whole Kingdoms he paid tribute to Caesar and acknowledged his Authority to be from above and we read no where that ever he gave any such power to his Apostles or their Successors as the Pope pretends to He told them indeed that they should be brought and condemned before the Tribunals of Kings and Princes but did no where tell them that ever Kings and Princes should be brought before their Pontifical Chairs to be judged and punished by them We read but of one that ever pretended to have the power of disposing of the Kingdoms of the World he that said All these things will I give thee Mat. 4.9 And except the Head of your Church will acknowledge himself to be his Surrogate he had best shew us how he came by the same Power But this Doctrine is so contrary to the example and Religion of our Lord Jesus Christ that it will be its own antidote you your selves are ashamed to own it openly and when it is known it is confuted P. I see we shall never agree as to particulars as long as you believe to have the Scripture on your side you 'll never yield to the Authority of our Church which you don't think to be infallible But in general by your own Confession ours is the best and the safest Church for you yield that a man may be sav'd in it whereas we utterly deny the same priviledge to yours Stapl. contr 3. quâ—st 9. 10. the Communion of the Church of Rome being absolutely necessary to the Salvation of all men Romanae Ecclesiae Communio omnibus est ad salutem necessaria You also grant that the Bishop of Rome is St. Peters Successor which is a great point And I believe you won't deny but that there is Miracles wrought in our Church which are unanswerable Arguments of the truth of its Doctrine These three are substantial points and will abundantly outweigh all the petty Objections you can bring against some parts of our Religion Pray consider of them at your leisure G. To my thinking they require no great consideration and there is no such weight in them as you fancy though you make great use of such woodden Arguments to seduce the simple yet to those that have but an ordinary competency of knowledge they seem very insignificant The first is comon to you with our Fanaticks they all confine Salvation every one to his own Sect and you and they together take advantage of our charity in that we don't exclude you out of Heaven you believe that you only shall come in it But Mr. Novator don't you trust to our charitable Opinions we may be mistaken for we pretend to no infallibility There was two Barques putting out to Sea both of them bound for Jerusalem one was rotten leaky and much out of order but the Master of it was a bold Man and of an imposing Spirit he would perswade the people that it was St. Peters own Barque that it was imposing Spirit he would perswade the people that it was St. Peters own Barque that it was impossible it should sink and that all as many as would not come into it should certainly be drown'd and never come to the Holy Land The other Barque was sound and strong and well fitted for the Voyage the Passengers therein would tell those in the leaky one of their great danger and exhort them to stop the holes and put things in better order though they did not despair but that some of them might swim to shore upon some pieces of the Barque Now do you think this mans confidence would hold his sinking Ship upon the Water or that the compassionates hopes and wishes of the others would make their own sink Certainly uncharitableness is a very unfit mark to know Christianity and the true Church by But let me tell you that we have no hopes of you as you are Papists Those Articles wherein you differ from us shall
greatly indanger but in no wise advance your Salvation What makes us admit of a possibility of your being sav'd is because you hold still the same Creed with us and because though you have much shaken and weakned yet ye have not quite overthrown the Foundation that is Jesus Christ and his saving merits which we hope will avail to those of your Church that trust in them though they ignorantly believe those things as would make them ineffectual if understood or relied on As for your so much cryed up Succession it signifies no more than this that now the Pope is Bishop of the same Town as St. Peter was or at least a Town of the same name for old Rome hath been destroyed long agone But pray supposing that St. Peters Successors were to be the Heads of the Church who told you that he did not leave that priviledge at Antioch where his Sea was first How many Ruptures and Schisms hath there been in your Succession and how many hath there been of your Popes guilty of the greatest Impieties and worst of Heresies Your own Authors can inform you as also how good and bad Orthodox and Heretick Bishops have succeeded one another in all Seas But make the best of it as you can what is it to the truth or untruth of those points we differ about Because now _____ sits in the same Chair as St. Peter did therefore there is a Purgatory and men ought to Worship Images and the Pope is infallible c. A very Logical Inference as good as that of the man who because he sate in Tullies Pew would needs perswade himself and others that he had Tullies Eloquence But there is Miracles daily wrought in your Church by some Saint or other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This is something indeed but 't is common to all Religions Monsieur Bernier a man of your Church will tell you as an eye-witness of it that the Turks and Gentiles pretend to the same and are more perswaded of the truth of their Miracles than I believe many in your Church are of the truth of yours But let me tell you that Miracles are for Infidels not for Believers St. Paul could not heal Trophimus to him a beloved Christian though among the Unbelievers he could even raise up the dead We believe the Religion Preached by the blessed Apostles upon the account of those Miracles they wrought when they were yet alive without their Reliques and Images work the same wonders now we are perswaded of the truth of what they then delivered And the truth is you are so your selves You don't pretend your new Miracles to confirm those Essential Doctrines of the Christian Religion which you and we are agreed about Your greatest Miracle-mongers have hardly reported any one Miracle wrought these five or six hundred years in these parts of the World to authorize Christian Religion or to prove the Doctrine of the blessed Trinity or of the two Natures united in Christ into one person about which points were most of the ancient Heresies or any one Article of the Creed they are all to confirm your new-found Doctrines The Cures as the Saints work upon those that worship their Images the appearing of dead Folks to beg for Masses and Prayers the return of Souls out of Purgatory to tell how hot the fire is and how well worth ones money Indulgences are the wonders done by your Fryars or the Founders of their Orders or of some one who is to be Canonized and most of them so ridiculous and so absurd that I believe the most serious Bigot amongst you can hardly hold laughing at the reading of your Legends and Books of Miracles And so of those three things you so much relied on the first is against you the second signifies nothing and the last exposeth to contempt those Doctrines it should justifie P. Well I did not think that you could say so much for your selves and I assure you I shall hereafter have a better opinion of you than ever I had thus much at least shall I be profited by our long Discourse and now Sir fare you well I thank G. Nay don't thank me 't is I should thank you for telling me so plainly those Doctrines of your Church we disagree about and which usually you so misrepresent to those of our Religion that they hardly ever know the truth of what your Church believes But pray don't go away yet I 'll help you to that company as you will like much better than mine I 'll tell you whose 't is when first I have desired these two things of you First that you would consider how greatly suspicious it is that your Church maintains those Doctrines we call Errours more for their profitableness to her than for any other reasons because they all tend to the increasing of her Riches or Authority The Popes Infallibility and his Power of disposing of all the World for the good of Souls the exemption of the Clergy from the power of the Civil Magistrate the requisiteness of their intention in the administring of your Sacraments how powerful how honourable and withal how dreadful must the belief of these make your Church and Church-men The Doctrine of Purgatory of Jubilees Pardons Indulgences and worshipping of Saints the best part whereof is the offering to them what Estates what Riches what a world of profit doth it bring to the Head and all the Members of your Clergy In those points of Christian Religion that concern not her Interest your Church is sound and Orthodox those beggerly Heresies of the Arians Eutichian Macedonians c. are condemned and detested by her as much as ever they were by the first Councils yours are Golden Errours if they are gross and palpable yet they are profitable and advantageous The Pope is none of those mean Souls that will hold erroneous Opinions meerly out of perverseness and obstinacy Si Jus violandum c. si Religio adulteranda regnandi causa if he errs at least he shall reign by it And so now reciprocally the Popes Greatness is the best argument to maintain those Errours whereby he got it the splendor of his own and the interest he hath in the Courts of several Princes the dependency all the Clergy hath upon him the numerous Legions of Souldiers he hath quartered in all Abbeys and Monasteries and the influence they have upon the common people his Inquisitions and his Ravilliacks these be the best proofs to evidence the truth of those Doctrines we have rejected as well as to uphold his Pontifical Chair over the Throne of Christian Princes The other is that remaining in the Communion of your Church you would think those the most substantial Articles of your Faith which were delivered by the Apostles confirm'd by the first Councils and now believ'd by you and us together and that upon them you would lay the greatest stress of your future well-being You cannot but see by what I have objected out of
Presbyterian Divine The First Part. P. SIr your humble servant I come to wait you upon a double account to give you thanks for the Civilities I have heretofore received from you and to spend in the best Company I can that short time I am allow'd to stay in England G. I protest Master it grieves me that contrary to our inclination we should be forc'd to be thus severe against you for to secure the peace of the kingdom And were it not that your Religion stands in opposition to the good and peaceable intentions which I believe some of you may have I do protest that I my self would heartily intercede for your staying and living quietly with us However you are very welcome P. Sir I know you to be of a very sweet nature by a long experience and I will requite your kindness by praying heartily for your conversion to the true Catholic Faith G. Master I thank you for your good will but I believe if your Prayers be heard I shall never be of your Religion for if it hath the truth yet therewith ye have mixt so many false Doctrins particular to your own Church that it can never be justly call'd The true Catholic Faith P. Sir you speak as you have been taught but did you well understand those things as you call false Doctrines I am sure you would be of another mind G. Well we are entred ab abrupto upon a Subject that will help us to pass away the time therefore I desire you my good Friend for our old acquaintance sake to let me know positively the truth of what your Church believes in the chiefest things we differ from you as it is taught and recorded by your most approved Doctors P. I will with all my heart as far as I am able and that you may not think I disguise any thing or speak my private Opinions I will bring the very words of the Council of Trent or Bellarmin or Stapleton as the Authentic Proofs of the truth of what I shall say ask you what you have a mind to know G. First let me enquire of what you believe concerning the Holy Scripture for we make it the Ground and the Rule of our Faith being persuaded that it conteins all things necessary to Salvation P. We are much of another mind for we hold that the Scripture doth not expresly contein all that is necessary to be believed or to be done i.e. Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 4. c. 3. that its Doctrine is defective in what concerns Faith and Morality Nos asserimus in Scripturis non contineri expresse totam doctrinam necessariam sive de fide sive de moribus G. That 's very plain and I believe more than you dare say to those you endeavour to make your Proselytes P. Nay Sir before we proceed I must tell you that I expect you would render me like for like and cite the words of Cranmer or Calvin or whatever Authors they are you have your Doctrine from that it may be seen which of us hath the better Authorities for our several Opinions pray who taught you that all things necessary to salvation are contein'd in Scripture G. Our Blessed Saviour who approved the Jews opinion of believing that by the Scriptures they might have eternal life and therefore commanded them to search them John 5.39 Search the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life and they are they which testifie of me And more expresly S. Paul who affirms that they are able to make us wise unto salvation 2 Tim. 3.15 c. being inspir'd by God These two Texts are of more weight with me than the contrary affirmations of twenty Cardinals And as for the Authors of our Religion we own none besides Christ and his blessed Apostles Those Doctrines of our Church which are positive are plainly contein'd in Scripture and the best Records of the Primitive Church and are own'd and believ'd by you also and the negatives which are against your Innovations can neither be disprov'd by Scripture nor the Antient Fathers but are generally included in the positive All this is to be seen in the learned labours of many of the Reformed Doctors I will not make our Discourse so tedious as to rehearse what they have said upon that subject therefore I desire you to be contented with a few plain Scriptures which I will bring to authorize our denying those Articles of your Roman Faith we have rejected P. Well do so if you will but let me tell you that Scripture is not to be the judge of Differences in Religion 'T is the Pope and Council must decide all Controversies and declare the true sense of Scripture Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 3. c. 3. Judicem dicimus veri sensus Scripturae omnium Controversiarum esse Ecclesiam id est Pontificem cum Concilio G. I don't believe it for I find that God sends his People to the Law and to the Testimony to examin the Doctrine of the Prophets Isa 8.20 and I hope the Gospel may as well have the Privilege that by it we should examin the Doctrin of the Pope Christ tells the Saducees that they cried because they knew not the Scriptures Mar. 12.24 Luke 16.29 It is said in the Parable of Dives They have Moses and the Prophets let them hear them And it is recorded to the praise of the people of Berea that they searched the Scriptures daily to see whether those things were so Acts 17.11 In all these the Scripture is made Judge of Controversies and by it the Doctrin of S. Paul himself is tried and examined P. But for all that the Scripture is very obscure and harder to be understood than the Notions of Metaphysic Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 3. c. 1. Certe si scientia Metaphysicorum difficilior quomodo non obscurissima erit Scriptura quae de rebus longe altioribus agit And if the People should read it it would do them more harm than good for 't would be an occasion of their falling into error about those Doctrines that concern Faith and a good Life Et ibid. l. 2. c. 15. Populum non solum non eaperet fructum ex Scripturis sed etiam caperet detrimentum acciperet enim facillime occasionem errandi tum in doctrina fidei tum in praeceptis vitae morum Therefore all men ought to follow the Decisions of Popes and Councils that they may be guided in the truth G. Nay I would have the people follow the judgment of the Church they live in but I would have them to make use of their Rationality to chuse the Communion of the purest Church according to the Word of God and if they have learning enough according to the four first General Councils and the Primitive Christians and not deny their Reason and the plain meaning of Scripture and make themselves blind that they may be led by those that pretend to
Gods Word against many of your Doctrines and by what many learned men have written out of the best Records of Antiquity if you durst read them that those things in debate betwixt us are at the best but doubtful therefore 't will be more sure to relie chiefly on what is believ'd of both parties our common Symbol or Christian Creed You use to say that yours is the safest Church because we believe as well as you that men may be sav'd in it And now I use the same reason and say that 't is better to believe as we do because you also acknowledge what we believe to be sound and Orthodox That the Scripture is the Word of God and therefore infallible That God is the only Object of our Religious Adoration That Jesus Christ is in Heaven and there to be worshipped That his Blood doth cleanse us from all sin That he intercedes for us and That he will render to every man according to his works the Scripture is plain in all this and you believe it as well as we therefore 't is much more certain and to be relied on than the Popes Infallibility the worshipping Images with the worship of Douleia as you speak the belief of Transubstantiation the Doctrine of Purgatory the relying on the Merits Satisfactions and Intercessions of the Saints and the Pardons and Indulgences of the Church-treasure Bell. de Justif l. 5. c. 7. Propter incertitudinem propriae justitiae periculum inanis Gloriae tutissimum est fiduciam totam in sola dei misericordia benignitate reponere Because of the uncertainty of our own righteousness and the danger of self-conceitedness it is safest of all to put our whole trust in the mercy of God The like might be said of all other points in question But why could not the learned Cardinal say so before and spare himself the great labours he took about Purgatory Indulgences and the Merits and Satisfactions of our selves and others by saying plainly Tutissimum est 't is safest of all to relie upon Gods mercy Certainly in a thing of that moment we should go the surest way to work But pray learn that Lesson of that great Champion of your Church and mind what I have said Now I 'll tell you if you stay a while longer I expect Master V. a Presbyterian Minister one that will tell you stoutly of the Beast and the Whore of Babylon and many other things that will please you as well I should be very glad to hear you discourse together and perhaps 't will not be altogether unpleasant to you P. Ho Master V. I know him of old I would go many a mile to see him and to talk with him I have of late lookt over many of their Presbyterian Books as they printed in the time of the late War I 'll warrant you I 'll make brave sport with him if you please but to stand Spectator or Auditor for a while if you can be patient enough to hear us I dare promise you we 'll find discourse enough to entertain your attention G. I will The Preface THe Doctrines and Constitutions of the Church of England which are rejected and opposed by the Presbyterians have been so fully asserted against their Objections and Innovations by the labours of several learned men that it had been actum agere to thrust my Sickle into other mens Harvest to say any thing in defence of them I have therefore made it my only business to discover their profest Religion as it hath been solemnly taught by the Deeds and Writings of their greatest Divines because I observe that they also draw people after them chiefly by concealing or misrepresenting of it I will not tell thee before hand that they own the worst of Popish Errours thou shalt judge of it when thou hast made an end of reading this Book But for fear thou shouldst think that thou knowest well enough already what their Doctrines are I will assure thee that they disguise them and cunningly hide their real and worst Opinions under fair and specious pretences I know I shall be told that I rake into the dust of old stories and open the grave of Oblivion c. and be called a Lyar and a Calumniator and what else they please Veritas odium parit But I say that those Authors I have cited have never recanted their Errours nor the Divines of that party ever censured or disowned them or their Writings but they still persist to impose upon the people and draw them away from the Church by the same arts and pretences as they did at first And I protest that though I might I have not mentioned the failings of any one man whom I knew to have repented of them by returning to his duty neither have I falsified any of my Quotations in the least nor made such severe reflections upon them as one might but said just as much as I thought would suffice to make them hang together and let the Reader see the cheat And as for their ill speaking of me I regard it not for let it be never so bad I am sure they have said worse of better men than either I am or pretend to be If it be objected That I have brought in a silly Presbyterian who speaks but two or three words at a time and says nothing in his own defence I desire it may be considered that the Papist having the Conclusion to prove was therefore to be longest in his Discourses and that Replies and a full debate of the points in question had been useless and inconsistent with my intended brevity But the truth is I knew not what my Veterator could have answered to those proofs that were brought against him I desire the Reader to observe whether they do admit of any pleas or evasions And now before I suffer thee to hear the Discourse of my Colloquutors let me require these two things of thee First That whatsoever Religion thou art resolved to profess thou wouldst take heed that by deluding arts and goodly pretences thou beest not made to follow those Doctrines and practices which are hereafter mentioned and the which if thou art a Christian and a Protestant thou canst not but condemn as being erroneous and criminal in the highest degree And secondly That thou would not draw poison out of my Antidote be uncharitable to those that are because I have made thee see their errours such foul Doctrines as thou shalt find in this Book are never good but at second hand and they are mentioned by me with designs of charity that thou mightst avoid them not to make thee hate or despise the Authors or Abettors of them Remember that other mens faults shall not excuse thine Wherefore let him that thinketh he stands take heed lest he fall 1 Cor. 10.12 In stead of insulting over them that are misguided or fallen do thou pray heartily with the Church That God would bring into the way of truth all such as have erred
have respect to the Saints the whole lump of them if you will maintain your interest whole and intire have regard to the Saints small and great More could not have been said to perswade the people to do you good and in this you are in no wise inferiour to the most self-preaching Monks Pr. I scorn your words we are in nothing like your foolish Fryars Presbyterians are a serious and considering people who serve God according to his VVord in spirit and in truth whereas they mind nothing but their fopperies their superstitions and biggotteries whereby they have made Religion ridiculous Pa. Yes you would fain make the world believe that your new-devised Church-Government and every thing you speak and do is Scripture and according to the Spirit and truth and to hear you cry up your Orders and outward circumstances of divine Service one would think you had found Scriptural or spiritual Ceremonies But when all comes to all it is only this that you make Religion and Godliness to consist in rejecting that decent and instructing Order in Divine VVorship which the Primitive Church used and transmitted to us for to follow your irreverent and unseemly manner of worshipping God according to your own minds But that you also have done enough to make Religion ridiculous and fabulous too is easie to be seen by what I have said and shall say further the many intolerabiles ineptias you preached in your best-studied Sermons before your Parliament and printed afterwards as being excellent Discourses are sufficient proofs that your grave out-sides are inwardly full of emptiness or something else and I protest nothing can fully represent how ridiculous you have made the Publick Offices of Religion as being an eye-witness of it in your Private Meetings And had you not besotted your people by making them believe that what others do is all Popish and Antichristian but what you do your selves is Scripture and Gods Ordinance in purity they would hiss you out of your Desks or at least leave you there alone to enjoy your extravagant humours I leave it as a conclusion to be drawn from our whole Discourse when it is ended that you have made Religion ridiculous or rather that yours is a mock-Religion consisting altogether as to the exterior of it in new-made Prayers and Sermons spoken with a certain piteous tone and some affected faces and paroxisms of Zeal such as Mr. Cheynel was in when he told the Parliament 1646. p. 4. I arrest you this day at the Suit of the great Jehovah for a Debt of ten thousand talents nay millions of millions and over and above of High Treason against the three Persons of the ever-blessed Trinity and then he was in a Trance pag. 24. Oh saith he I feel I bless God I feel my self transported even beyond my self with raptures and extasies of love I could tell you of Christ-concerning-points and Soul-concerning-points of Parliament-repentance and Sacrament-repentance and Bed-repentance and Shop-repentance and many such new-coined phrases which are none of the least part of the powerfulness of preaching And I could tell you of a receipt which is as the extract of a Book called Parliament-Physick for a sick Nation Licensed by Mr. J. Cranford which makes a mock-Physick or Divinity of all Evangelick and moral Vertues 1644. p. 112. A great deal of fopperies and futilities as you charge us with might be pickt out of the Sermons as you then printed and I doubt not but the Prayers were much after the same sort had they come out in print and if my Notes deceive me not what you preach now is not much better but I will not say any thing except what I have under your hands But this needs not be prosecuted directly any further Pr. What of all this These be personal failings I don't know how we are come insensibly to talk of things that are meerly practical whereas we was to speak of Doctrinal points I 'll give you but two or three instances more of the wide difference that is betwixt us and then let all the world be judge how impertinent you have been in charging Popery upon us And first you make outward splendor and prosperity to be a mark of the true Church whereas we teach according to Divine and Humane Histories that the Church hath her wanes as well as her fulness that sometimes she is fain to flee into the wilderness and that her Glory may be eclipsed without she doth cease to be the true and only Spouse of Christ Pa. Well I hope you love us never the worse for that agreement as you see is betwixt us in practical points for those be the most important But as for what you mentioned last I must confess that after the Kings and the Churches return to their right you taught E. Calamy 1662. p. 10. 14 That the Ark of God was in great danger and very near to be lost gray hairs saith Mr. Calamy are upon the Gospel I say not that the Gospel is dying but that it hath gray hairs I dare challenge any Scholar to shew me an example of any Nation that hath enjoyed the Gospel for an hundred years together now that gray hairs is to an hundred years is no wonder Well gray hairs are here and there and yet no man lays it to heart But then 't is to be observed that your Principles and Doctrines do change according to your condition Th. Good Ph. Nye Sy. Symp. Jer. Bur. W. Bridge p. 10. according as five of your Brethren told us in their Apology to the Parliament This principle we carried along with us not to make our present judgment and practice a binding Law to our selves for the future For in the days of your Power you then followed God and Providence every prosperous success of yours was a mark that yours was Gods Cause and you his beloved ones Behold God in the Mount cries Mr. Vicars at every advantage you had over the Kings party in his Jehovah-Jireh yea and your prosperity was a mark that you were destroying Antichrist Tho. Palmer in that Sermon 1644. dedicated to the Earl of Essex Epist Dedicat hath these brave expressions God hath put you in his own place God hath grac'd you with his own Name Lord of Hosts General of Armies God hath committed to your care what is most precious to himself precious Gospel precious Ordinances a precious Parliament a precious people God hath called forth your Excellency as a choice Worthy to be his General and the Champion of Jesus Christ to fight the great and last battel with Antichrist in this your native Kingdom So Mr. Caryl in a Thanksgiving Sermon for a Victory of yours Jos Caryl 1644. Divine Providence is a leading Cloud to this day it is ill to out-run Providence and it is as bad not to follow it Many things that I have said before will clear it enough that you made your good success and prosperity an argument
more spiritual way of praying And so you know our Church hath also many wise reasons for not obeying Christ in this particular Hereby it appears that you can as well as we make bold with an express Law and Ordinance of Christ in what concerns the Worship of God and what matters it though it be not in the same matter they that can in one can in all when they shall think good Pr. I should laugh if you could make it out too that we have amongst us Miracles and Legends as I am sure you have a great many to prove your new Religion by Come try your skill I don't despair but one day you 'll find out the Quadrature of the Circle or the perpetual motion you are so ingenious and so good at making discoveries Pa. I can't tell what I shall do for the first but I am sure for perpetual motion the world is beholding to you for the finding of it out for when you taught the people that nothing must be done in Divine Worship but what is commanded in Scripture and that therefore the Liturgy was to be put away they finding that the order appointed in the Directory was no more to be found in Scripture than the other took it away too and so your Thorough-Reforming by such an unlimited Principle set a Wheel a going whose motion 't is likely will be perpetual You reformed the first Reformation others reformed yours and others that and so on it went and I believe will go as long as there is any brains in Schismatick-heads to keep on the Circulation But 't is a thing so plain that you also have Legends and Miracles to perswade the people of the Diviness of your new-contrived way of Worship and Discipline that my making of it appear will deserve none of your commendations I could tell you of a secret way of whispering Legends fine well-made stories of Bishops and Priests when the Brethren meet together but possibly those that don't know you so well as I do would not believe me therefore I 'll instance in a few of a great many that are upon record p. 8. Mr. Vavasor Powel saw several times the Devil appearing to him sometimes stamping upon the Chamber-floor and sometimes blowing a strong cold wind upon him and several other ways once it was revealed to him that he and two of his friends should be wounded in the Island of Anglessy p. 17. And another time he being in his bed p. 130. there appear'd to him a bright shining light and in the light a speckled Bird which bad him read Mat. 3.2 Mr. Cook likewise no Divine I confess but yet a man that well deserves to be credited for being an holy Covenanteer going over into Ireland and meeting with a great and fearful storm which frighted him to some purpose God as he saith put in his mind the chief places in Scripture concerning the Seas and then it follows I prest my dear Christ not to drown us for said I we fight for thy Kingly Office throw the Egyptians and all thine implacable Enemies in the midst of the Sea but let us be preserved Yet for all his fear and danger he fell asleep and then as he saith pag. 6. he saw a large Room in the midst whereof was a long Table and upon that Table an ordinary Carpet two Candles two Trenchers of Tobacco some Pipes in the Room there was a man of a middle stature his hairs were white and curling at the end but the hair of his upper lip was brown his cloaths were of a sad colour and upon his head was a Cloth-broad-brim Hat and he told him he waited upon Jesus Christ and carried him to his Master who told Cook that he should not be drowned hearing that he belonged to the Protector Traytor and other strange things which yet proved true in the event Here be as you see most miraculous Visions the particulars whereof are related with such exactitude that I believe none but Malignants ever doubted of the truth of them But I must not relate particulars my Book it self should be a miracle in bigness if you please to read the Mirabilis Annus that was printed in 1662. there you shall find as the Author saith many signal and miraculous judgments and accidents befallen those that have molested the Godly for Nonconformity And also Mr. Vicars Looking-Glass for Malignants will furnish you with many wondrous stories of the terrible and most dreadful judgments that befel the Malignants from 1640. to 1643. when the Book was printed These Books for Miracles and fine Tales may deservedly be ranked among the most fabulous Legends that ever were printed and though 't is likely the Authors did not believe them yet they served your turn Those pious frauds won more Proselytes to your side than any thing else next to your Weapons all the difference is this that our Miracles are wrought by the Saints and yours for the Saints Pr. And so you cunningly insinuate that we have Saints as well as you What don't you know we will not so much as call Peter and Paul Saints we are so far from praying to them or keeping days in their honour Prove it if you can that in this particular your Doctrine and ours hath the least resemblance and then without instancing any more I 'll make it appear that you have taken a great deal of labour to little purpose Pa. What! I have mentioned your Saints forty or fifty times out of those of your Authors whose words I have cited and now you speak as if you had none at all Why man there is no people under the Sun that owns so many as you 't is true you won't call the blessed Apostles and Martyrs by the name of Saints that would be Popery and Superstition but you 'll call your selves so very freely and humbly and without any scruple for it seems that is your due and not theirs any one that would throw a stone against the woman surprized in Adultery was ipso facto made a Saint contrary to what happened in the Gospel I mean that every one that would help to throw down the Whore and Jezabel as you call'd the Church were thereby immediately Canonized so that the worst of Fanaticks who help'd to do the work have still retained the Saintship you bestow'd upon them though since they have departed from you As Thomas Brooks in a Sermon dedicated to Sir Tho. Fairfax 1648. p. 15. To do gloriously is to appear for the Saints and side with the Saints let the issue be what it will O it is a base thing in those that have appeared and sided with the Saints now to prove treacherous and let the poor Saints shift for themselves And so before that in 1646. Mr. Cheynel instructed the Parliament concerning the Saints in this manner I am so far from endeavouring to persecute Saints p. 37.38 c. that I humbly desire that we would all study how to