Ghost to illuminate the world with the Trueth of the Ghospell and to discipate the clowds of the former Romish Errours And I am assured Michaeas you wil acknowledg Luther for a perfect Protestant in all points and consequently that the Protestant Church was in Luther his followers most conspicuous and Visible MICHAEAS I know most of our new Ghospellers trauayle with you M. D. on this child to wit that Luther did erect a perfect forme of Protestancy By the which we may learne that Affection is not only blind but also deafe so loath you Protestants are either to see or heare any thing against Luther herein Neuerthelesse I here auerre it is impossible to iustify Luther for a true Protestant I know also that himselfe thus vaunteth Christum a nobis primò vulgatum audemus gloriari where we may see it is an accustomed blemish of most Innouatours to become their owne Parasites NEVSERVS Strange Luther not a Protestant doth the Sunne shine Is the fier hot Doth the Sea ebb and flow As certaine as any of these so certaine Luther was a perfect and true Protestant He was the Sunne that did dispel in those dayes the mists of Antichristian darkenesse From his preaching and writings a â—ier of Christian zeale was inkindled in thousands of mens soules for the embrasing of the Ghospell of Christ And neuer did the torrent and inundation of superstition and Idolatry suffer a greater reflux a greater reflux and Ebb then in his life time MICHAEAS Rhetorically amplifyed Neuserus But it is the weight of Reason not a froath of empty words which sway the iudicious I grant that Luther did derogatize more articles of Innouation and Nouelisme now taught by Protestants then any one Man afore him did since the first plantation of Christianity yet that Luther was a perfect and articulate Protestant and such as the present Protestant Church with relation to the doctrine now taught by that Church may iustly truely acknowledg for a member thereof I eternally denye and do iustify my deniall out of his owne bookes so shall Luther prooue that Luther was no Protestant Now this I euict according to my former premonitions and cautions first because Luther did euer hould euen after his reuolt from the Church of Rome diuers Catholicke opinions or doctrines then and still now taught by the said Church Secondly in that Luther after his departure from the Church of Rome did mantayne diuers grosse errours or rather Heresies or rather blasphemies and for such at this day condemned both by Catholicks and Protestants So euident it will appeare that Luther was too weake a bulke to giue nurrishment to all those different plants which now do stile themselues Protestants And first touching seuerall Catholicke points euer beleiued defended by Luther euen to his last day these following may serue as Instances 1. First he euer maintayned the Reall Presence in the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist as the world knoweth And his followers for their peculiar defence of this doctrine are styled Lutherans by Swinglins Caluin their party impugning the foresaid doctrine 2. Luther also defended Prayer to Saints of which point he thus wryteth De intercessione diuorum cum tota Ecclesia Christiana sentio iudico sanctos a nobis honorandos esse atque inuocandos 3. He also taught the doctrine of Euangelicall Counsells to wit that a man might do more then he is commanded as appeareth out of his Booke de assertionibus 4. The Doctrine of Purgatory he taught of which see tom 〈◊〉 Wittenberg in resolut de Indulgentijs And answerably to this ground he is confessed by Vrbanus Regius a Protestant to defend prayer for the Dead 5. Luther further taught and approued the vse of Images as Beza witnesseth 6. The indifferency of communion vnder one or both kindes contrary to the doctrine of the Protestants who place a necessity in both is allowed by Luther in these words quamuis pulcrum sit c. Although it were very seemely to vse both the species or formes in the blessed Eucharist though Christ commanded nothing herein as necessary yet it were better to follow peace c. then to contende about the formes 7. Touching the making of the signe of the Crosse vpon our foreheads Iohannes Creuelius a Lutheran thus witnesseth Cum imus cubitum â—iue surgimus electo cruce nos iuxta Lutheri aliorum piorumâ—â— institutionem signamus When we go to bedd or rise from thence we do signe our selues with the signe of the Crosse according to the aduice of Luther and other pious men And Iohannes Maulius Luthers scholler thus writeth of Luther respondet Lutherus signo crucis facto Deus me tuetitur Luther answereth at the making of the signe of the Crosse God defend me 8. Finally to omit diuers other points wherein Luther neuer dissented from the Church of Rome Luther euer mantained that the gouerment of the Church is Monarchical neither Aristocratical nor Popular of which point Luther thus writeth Cum Deus voluerit c. Seing God would haue one Catholicke Church throughout the whole World it was needful that one people imo vnum aliquem patrem istius vnius populi elegi yea some one father of this one people should be choosen ad quem suos posteros spectant totus orbis to whose care and his successours the whole World should belong And thus farre Gentlemen touching some tast to shew that Luther euen after his forsaking of the Catholicke and Roman Church did neuerthelesse still retaine and belieue diuers Catholicke doctrines and consequently was no no entire and perfect Protestant D. REYNOLDS I confesse indeede that Luther as appeareth by his owne writings did not reueale to the new World as I may tearme it all the Euangelical Trueth the fuller discouery of some parts thereof being reserued for our later dayes And though his owne Religion was not through want of beliefe of some Trueths perfectly good yet I am assured It is not by his pesitiuely mantayning of any one errour then in what he was nuzled by the Church of Rome in any sort euill MICHAEAS This your reply is impertinent for here the Question is only whether Luther in respest of his faith was such an absolute Protestant as at this day our Gospellers repute for a good sound Protestant Yet that you may see your owne errour otherwise in ouer highly preiudging of Luthers Religion I wil here particularize out of his owne writings and other Protestants relations certaine Heresies and blasphemies neuer by him after recaled and incompatible with saluation for modicum firmentum totam massam corrumpit which he did egurgitate out of his impure stomak From whence we may inferre that with lesse reason he may be vrged for a Protestant 1. And First I wil here alleadg his impious doctrine wherin he labored to cut and wound Christian Religion euen in it maister-veine touching the
serue only to bleare for the tyme the impenetrating and weake eyes of the ignorant do in the closure of all both by certaine necessary inferences as also in playne and expresse tearmes grant the point here controuerted to wit that the Protestant Church hath for many ages togeather bene wholy inuisible and not knowne to any one man liuing or rather that during such said ages it hath bene vtterly ouerthrowne destroyed and as it were annihilated and no such Church in being The proofe of which point shal be the subiect of this passage This point then is prooued two wayes and both from the penns of the Protestants First from their acknowledged want of succession of Pastours and of their like defect of sending by ordinary Calling Secondly from their manifest open complaints of their Churches inuisibility for former ages in expresse words or rather of it vtter extinction Nullity And as touching the first It is euident euen in reason it selfe that that Church which wanteth succession of Pastours ordinary Calling if any such Church could be must needes be inuisible at least at that tyme when such want is And the reason hereof is because this want necessarily presupposeth that there were not in that supposed Church any former Predecessours or Pastours at all which could conferre authority or calling to the succeding Pastours or Preachers But where no Pastours are there are no sheepe for it is written how shall they heare without a Preacher And where no sheepe are there is no Church And where is no Church there is no visisibility of it since euen Logicke instructeth vs that Non Eutis â—â—n est Accidens That the Protestant Church for many ages hath wanted all personall succession and ordinary Calling is ouereuident seeing besides that which hath bene sayd of this point already we find diuers learned Protestants to confesse no lesse For thus doth Sadellius write Diuers Protestants affirme that the Ministers with them are destitute of lawfull Calling as not hauing a continuall visible succession from the Apostles tymes which they do attribute only to the Papists And hence it is that many Protestants confesse that they are forced to flye to Extraordinary Calling which is immediatly from God without any help of man Thus for example Caluin saith Quia Papae tyrannide c. Because through the tyrannâ— of the Pope true succession of Ordination was broken off therefore we stand neede of a new course herein and this function or Calling was altogether extraorinary Thus Caluin And D. Fulke in like manner sayth The Protestants that first preached in these dayes had extraordinary Calling with whom agreeth D. Parkins saying The calling of Wâ—cklefe Hus Luther Oecolampadius Peter Martyr c. was extraordinary Thus we see that the Protestants confessing the want of personall succession in their Church as also the want of Ordinary Vocation and flying therefore to Extraordinory Vocation do euen by such their Confessions acknowledge withall the Inuisibility of their Church in those tymes and an interruption next before of all personall succession for if succession of Pastours had then bene really truly in being then had those men bene visible to whom the Authority of calling others to the Ministery had appertayned and consequently there had bene no need of Extraordinary Calling Which Extraordinary Calling is euer accompayned with Miracles as aboue is showed in the iudgments of the more sober Protestants or otherwise it is but a meere illusion And we haue not red or heard that any of those first Protestants who vendicated to themselues this Extraordinary Calling haue euer wrought in confirmation eyther of their Calling or doctrine any one Miracle OCHINVS I must confesse Michaeas that you haue discussed well of this poynt and in my iudgment very forcingly But proceed we intreate you to the second branch of your Proofe since I can hardly belieue that any Protestants will expresly acknowledge the Inuisibility of their owne Church for if they do then is the Question at an end and hath receaued it vttermost tryall that can be imagined MICHAEAS The euent will seale the truth of this point And first that immediatly before Luthers reuolt the Protestant Church was inuisible Vibanus Regius a markable Protestant confesseth so much But of the Protestant Church it visibility at Luthers appearance we haue already fully discoursed and therefore we will ascend to higher times M. Parkins then thus writeth of ages more remote We say that before the day of Luther for the space of many hundred yeares an vniuersall Apostasy ouerspred the whole face of the earth and that our Church was not then visible to the world Caelius Secundus Curio an eminent Protestant confesseth no lesse in these words Factum est vt per multos i am annos Ecclesia latuerit ciuesque hutus regni vix ab alijs ac ne vix quidem agnosci potuerint c. It is brought to passe that the Church for many yeares hath bene latent and that the Cittizens of this Kingdome could scarsely and indeed not as all be knowne of others D. Fulke confesseth more particularly of this point saying The Church in the tyme of Bonifacâ— the third which was anno 607. was inuisible and fleed into wildernes there to remayne a long season M. Napper riseth to higher tymes thus wrytinge God hath withdrawne his visible Church from open assemblyes to the harts of particular godly men c. during the space of twelue hundred and sixty yeares the true Church abiding latent and inuisible With whome touching the continuance of this Inuisibility agreeth M. Brocard an English Protestant But M. Napper is not content with the latency of the Protestant Church for the former tymes only but inuolueth more ages therein thus auerâ—ing During euen the second and third Ages meaning after Christ the true Church of God and light of the Gospell was obscured by the Roman Antichrist hymselfe But Sebastianus francus a most remarkable Protestant ouerstripeth hearein all his former Brethren not doubting to comprehend within the said Inuisibility all the ages since the Apostles thus wryting for certaine the externall Church together with the fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departure And that for these thousand and foure hundred yeares marke the lenght of the tyme the Church hath beene no wâ—eare externall and visible Which acknowledgement of so longe a tyme or rather longer is likewise made by D. Fulke in these words The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tyme. But D. Downham with whom I will heare conclude is not ashamed to insimulate the very tymes of the Apostles within the lyke latency thus wrytinge The generall defection of the visible Church foretouâ—d 2. Thessal 2. begunne to worke in the Apostles tymes Good God Would any Man hould it possible were it not that their owne books are yet extant that such eminent Protestants should confesse
Sacerdotal 〈…〉 h 〈…〉 tye of remitting of sinns in the Sacrament of Confession and of celebrating the most reuerend and incruent Sacrifice of the Masse subiects against which many Protestants so bitterly 〈…〉 both with tongue and penne Now if Gods 〈◊〉 Wâ—â—t partly deliuered in a propheticall spirit and partly by our Sauiours 〈◊〉 and Apostles touching the former poynts Yf the vninterrupted practize of Gods Church answearable to those diuine Oracles Yf the learned Monuments of the Primatiue Fathers in the Churches Infancy contesting or rather deposing the same Yf the Ecclesiasticall Historyes recording the euenâ—s sorting to all the former proâ—ffs and authorityes Finally if your owne Brethrens free Confessions in their wrytings to their owne irreperable preiudice warranting the same cannot induce many of you to beleiue the truth of the Articles aboue discussed then can I but dispaire of your bettering by perusing the former disputes and can but coÌ„miserate your irremediable states in the words of the Prophet spoken to Israell Insanabilis â—ract 〈…〉 a pessima pâ—â—ga tua but if you be such as I haue fiâ—ured out to my selfe Men professing Candor and ingenuitie thirsting after your owne Saluation desirous to embrace the Truth once found out and chorninâ— any lonâ—er to liue and implicit and blynd assent without further 〈◊〉 and search to your grand Maysters Theorems then I am in good hope that these my Labours may wunne some ground vpon your iudgments and that you will make good in yourself that senteÌ„ce of our Lord and Sauiour Iustificata est sapientia a fil 〈…〉 suis I will speake playnly vnto you because I affect you in true Christian Charity and pittie it is that such-transcendent Spirits should for euer perish You are created to enjoy Eternitye Spurne there at those temporary illaqueations whearwith the soule i accustomed to be detayned from her cheifest Good You are through the force of Christs Passion 〈…〉 borne Coheyâ—es to the Kinâ—dome of God Why then will you longer seede with the Prodicall Sonne vpon the husks of wordly deliâ—hts and pleasures say eich of you rather with an auncient Father Mihi â—amulo Create is murd 〈…〉 us si non tamen Deus mundi Et igo Mundo non tamen Deo mundi Pray with in â—â—slant and feruerous eiaculations of spirit by which meanes he will no dowbt of new become present to you who at all tymes is present that his Diuine Maiesty would vouchsafe to remoue from your eyes as he did from the corporal eyes of the Apostle the scales of partiality and preiudice in matters of fayth the most dangerous rocke of the soules eternall naufrage Do not still perseuer in vp â—raidinâ— the Catholicks with Superstition Idolatrie Antichristianisme relyinge on humane inuentions and disualewing of the most precious sufferings of our 〈◊〉 no. These are but our Aduersaryes impostures and Calumnyes forged to ensware the ignorant For we all most willingly acknowledg that the bloudy wounds of a sinfull soule are cured only by the bloudy passaues of Christ his Passion thus we teach and beleiue that bloud heare stancheth bloud and Death through ouerthrow of death raise Men from death Mors â—ortua tunc est in ligno quando mortua vita fuit But to returne more particularly to the former Dialogues I do probably preâ—age that perhaps some one or other of your learned Professours will vndertake to answeare theese my Wrytings Therefore let me premonish that man cheifly of three Things First that whereas theare are in the three former discourses almost a thousand Testimonies of all sorts of authorities produced some immediatly and others by necessary inferrence prouing the Catholicks Poynts aboue treated of That therefore he would not forbearing in policy to answeare the authorities flee a new to the state of the question being allready acknowledged on all sides and to other extrauagancyes of discours and all to with draw by such subtill transitions his Reader from the poynt issuable which is whether the former Conâ—rouerâ—ed Questions do receaue their full prousse from my alledged testimonies or no 〈◊〉 Secondly that whereas the greatest part of the aboue alledged authorities are taken from the protestants Confessions and acknowledgments they mainly thearby wounding their owne Religion That the Replyar for the auoyding of the force of their authorities would not seeke to oppose other Protestants denying that which they confesse since this Kynd of euadingâ—s most weake as is intimated allready in the second Dialogue in that the Protestants alledged by me are the most remarkable Protestants that euer did wryte and do confesse to their owne preiudice and against the 〈◊〉 which they neuer would do but that the euidency of the Truth enforceth them thear to Whereas thus others which perhaps the Replyar may pro 〈…〉 ce are Men of meaner ranke and speake in their owne behalfe and therefore as compacted of impudency and boldnes their tonâ—ues and pe 〈…〉 ns stand at all tymes ready charged to speake and wryte by affirming of chings thou 〈…〉 neuer so false for the supporting of their owne Cause Thirdly and lastly that in answearing to the testimonyes and Confessious he would take them in order as they lye and not omit any as otherwyse hoping that is regard of the â—â—ltitude of the testimonyes the sluggish yauning Reader would easely swalow such ouersights of Omisions For heare I aduertize the Replyar a forehand That presently vpon the first comming out of his Answeare I will make a short Cathalogue of all the testimonyes and Confessions omitted by hym if any such he shewing to what end the sayd Testimonyes were particularly produced And will cause this Cathalogue within few dayes after atleast few weeks for I will not stay for months to be printed and d 〈…〉 for the present s 〈…〉 of the Readers thirst till further oportunity be geuen for confuting of his answeare at large And thus I dowbt not but the Sunne of the Replyars same end worth which may seeme perhaps so gloriously to ryse at the first appearance of his most learned answeare forsooth within th 〈…〉 tyme after if any of the former premonished â—leiâ—hts and collusions be vsed thearein wil be forced to set in a Cloud of his owne disgrace and disreputation Neither let that Man think that the s 〈…〉 of his Booke with greeke sentences or the hayling in of certaine mysapplyed and g 〈…〉 beaded Apotheges of some one or other old and outworne Philosophâ—â— an Idiome peculiar to most Protestant Wryters must carye the maâ—ter But it must be a 〈…〉 and sincere coaâ—s of answearing which at this tyme can satisfy But now Cel 〈…〉 Academicks taking my last leaue of you all I will heare cease but will neuer cease to power out my dayly prayers to the most Blessed and vâ—deuided for your encrease of all vertues but particularly for true and orthodoxall fayth that â—o you being gratefull in the siâ—ht of the three diuine Persons God the Father would vouchsafe
Augustins comming into England Thirdly it is prooued that at the tyme of the conference betweene Augustine and the Briton Byshops the greatest difference in matters of Fayth and Religion wherupon they stoode were but two poynts cheifly consisting in Ceremony to wit the keeping of Easter day in it vsuall tyme and the forme of Baptizing according to the rites of Rome Fourthly and lastly it is graunted that Augustine here planted and preached to the English all Articles and points of the present Romane Religion or Papistry as you Protestants do vsually style it Now M. Doctour what other resultancy can here be made out of all these Premisses but this To wit that the Church of Rome in Augustins time teaching Papistry was wholy agreeable the two points or Ceremonies of keeping Easter day and of baptising with the Rites of Rome only excepted with the Fayth and Religion which was planted among the Britons by Ioseph of Aramathia in the Apostles daies and consequently that the Church of Rome teaching Papistry did neuer suffer any change in her Faith and Religion since the Apostles departed This is the Argument wherin I graunt I partly insult it is inauoidable it is a demonstration And pryse it Micheas as a strong Aries beating downe bearing before it whatsoeuer may seeme to withstand the Truth in this pointe controuerted MICHEAS In deed my Lord it seemes to me very forcible and you did well to reserue it to the last place that so like sweet-meats it might pleasingly close vp the tast of our iudgments Neuerthelesse the consideration of it doth not diminish with me the force of your other former arguments for though Better be better yet followeth it not but that Good is good D. WHITAKERS My Lord This your argument is tyed togeather with many links and breake but one of them all the rest are loosed And indeed it is but an argument drawne from Authority Negatiuely and by Omission only which you know is little valued in the schooles For the hinge as I may say or weight of it only consisteth in this That at the meeting of Augustine and the Briton Bishops dissented from Augustine But of other greater points we read no mention made among them and therfore for any thing we know the Britons might aswell disagree from Augustine in all other Articles passed ouer in silence as agree with them CARD BELLARM. How improbable how absurd how impossible is this you say And take heede M. Doctour that this your answere be not controuled by your owne secret conscience and beware of much practising the like hereafter since the Character of any bad course impressed by a long habit at length becoms indelible But to the point Consider all the Circumstances of the busines at that tyme handled and then deliuer an impartiall and euen censure The meeting was occasioned only for comparing their Faiths together Augustine imitating therin S. Paul vt conferat cum illis Euangelium quod praedicat in Gentibus The Britons euen by the acknowledgment of M. Fox did beare themselues at the first against Augustine with great pertinacy stubbernes and therfore the lesse probable it is that they would yeeld to him in any point of moment more then was agreeable to their owne Religion The differences betweene them after much disquisition and search are recorded to be only about the two former points of Ceremonies and seeming indifferency The Recorder of this great Passage was principally S. Bede who ex professo did write most elaborately and punctually the Ecclesiasticall History of England in those times and therein was obliged by his designed method not to register the smallest occurrents and wholy to omit the greatest Now then can we dreame that the Doctrines touching the Reall Presence the Sacrifice of the Masse Praying to Saints Purgatory Free-will Iustification by works Images Monachisme the Primacy of Peter and some others all being Articles of greatest importance and particulerly taught by S. Augustine were either not mentioned and not once spoken of in that serious discourse betweene Augustine and the Briton Bishops or they being then painfully discussed and ventilated the Britons being so refractory and stiffe with Augustine in the smalest points would quietly and without resistance embrace all these high doctrines as Innouations and repugnant to their Fayth first planted by Ioseph of Aramathia Or if the Briâ—on Bishops veâ—lded not their assent to these supreame poynts of Fayth of Rome would not such their reluctation and dislike haue bin recorded by S. Bede and other writers of those tymes who would not omit to relate the Britons stifnes and coldnes in the least matters of this History It is great weakenes but to suppose such impossibilities It is madnes and lunacy to beleeue them Therfore my absolute and last resolution here is that the Fayth of Augustine was then one and the same in all Articles with the Fayth of the Britons first preached to them in the Apostles dayes the Ceremonies of Baptising and of keeping Easter day cheifly excepted which lesser errours S. Augustine obseruing the Britons stiffnes thought perhaps would sooner be recalled by a patient sufferance of them for a tyme then by any violent meanes vsed at the first to the contrary like to some diseases which are best cured by continuing the diseases Now for the fuller close of this poynt to wit touching the agreement of the Doctrine taught by S. Augustine with the then Doctrine and Fayth of the Briton Bishops I will adde the acknowledgement of the Briton Bishops themselues of whom S. Bede thus relateth Britones quidem confitentur intellexisse se veram esse viam iustitiae quam praedicaret Augustinus so vnanimous we see were the Britons Augustine in their Fayth and Religion and therfore it was not strange that at the last as D. Fulke affirmeth Augustine did obtayne the ayd of the British Bishops to the conuersion of the Saxons And thus far of this argument the which shall serue as the Catastrophe or end of this my Scene wherin I haue vndertaken though more then by rigour of method I was tyed vnto to prooue by positiue arguments and reasons that the Church of Rome hath neuer suffered any change in her Fayth and religion since the Apostles dayes my cheife allectiue Micheâ—s inducing me therto being only your satisfaction in this your imposed Subiect or Question MICHEAS My L. Cardinall I render you humble thankes and I must say that these your former arguments produced seeme to me very moouing and except M. Doctour be able to repell them with other more forcible arguments they will I coÌ„fesse impell my Iudgment to giue it free and full consent to the beleeuing of that point for the proofe wherof they are by your Lordship alleadged CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour Seeing there is no truth so illustrious and radiant but that in an vndiscerning eye it may seeme to be clowded for the time with the interposition of some weake Obiections
they may safely adioyne themselues D. Field conspireth with al the former Protestants thus saying The persons of them of whom the Church consisteth are Visible their profession knowne euen to the prophane and wiched of the world And in this sort the Church cannot be Inuisible Thus this Doctour preuenteth the answere of those who say the Church is Visible but to the Elect only The said D. Field thus reprehendeth Cardinal Bellarmine touching this point saying It is true that Bellarmine laboreth in vaine in proouing that there is and alwayes hath bene a Visible Church and that not consisting of some few scattered Christians without Order of Ministry or vse of Sacraments for all this wee do most willingly yeeld vnto how soeuer perhaps some few haue bene otherwise of Opinion But for great breuity and ommitting the like confessions herein of other remarkable Protestants D. Humfrey shall close vp this scene who enthereth into heate and passion with his Aduersaries for needelesly prouing the Churches euer Visibility For thus he writeth Cur ergo anxiè curiosè probant quod est a nobis numquam negatum Why do they meaning the Catholicks so painfully and curiously proue that which we neuer denyed And then after the said Doctour Non enim clancularij secessus conuocationes sunt Christianae the society of Christians are not secret meetings And then there againe speaking of the Church militant Oportet Ecclesiam esse conspicuam Conclusio est clarissima It is a manifest Conclusion that the Church is to be conspicuous and Visible And thus farre Gentlemen of your owne Brethren confessing with vs Catholicks the euer Visibility of the Church of God And this in so full a manner as that the wicked as D. Fyeld aboue speaketh shall take full notice and sight of it by force of which cleare testimonies those few and ignorant Protestants who confesse the Church to be Visible but not in so full a maner are preuented of their poore refuge saying The Church is Visible but not at all tymes as if the Church like the Sea enioyed a flux and reflux of it Visibility knowne but knowne only to the Elect and faythfull phantastically spoken without al colour of proofe and mainly crossing not only their owne more learned Brethren but also most repugnant to the formery mentioned Propheces of Gods sacred word and other passages thereof to the graue authority of the Primatiue Fathers and finally to al force of reason it selfe D. REYNOLDS Wee see Michaeas you are very conuersant in our owne Writers And now I hope this first point is perfected Whereupon the force of the future discourse is to relye And though thē be some difficulty to crye downe an errour or false opinion in doctrine once aduanced Neuerthelesse I trust no learned iudicious Man perusing the former authorities at large will euer dreame of an Inuisible Church being in it selfe a meere intentional Notion and hauing no subsistence or being MICHAEAS M. Doctour you say truly But now seeing it is in this next place properly incumbent vpon you and these two graue men to instance in Protestants for all ages since Christ for the Church of Christ by your owne former doctrine necessarily exacteth such a Visibility I hould it conuenient to put you al in minde of two or three points the due consideration of which may much induce to the discouery of the weaknes of such Instances which as my thoughts presage wil be hereafter insisteth vpon by you NEVSERVS You do well Michaeas to set downe those premonitions for we desire that if there shal be any defect in the future examples it may be fully displayed Therefore proceed in your Method MICHAEAS The first then of these any maduersions may be to obserue the wounderful reluctation and backwardnesse in some Protestants a manifest signe of their owne guilty defectiuenesse herein when this Catholicks presse them to giue instances of Protestancy and of the administration of the word and Sacrements For seing they wil beare men in hand that their Church hath euer continued Visible they are therefore in reasons it selfe bound as mantayning the affirmatiue part to vndertake the proose thereof Now answearably to my former Assertion I finde D Wutton speaking to his Catholicke Aduersary thus to write you wilt say shew vs where the fayth and Religion you professe where held Nay proue you that they were held no where c. And what if it could not beshewed yet we know by the articles of our Creede that there hath bene alwayes a Church in which we say this religion we professe must of necessity be held c. This stands vpon you to disproue which when you do by particular Records you shall haue particular answere Then which what can be spoken first more absurdly as expecting records of things which neuer were in being He furthermore transferring the part of prouing vpon Catholicks to which himselfe and his fellowes only stand obliged Secondly what can discouer more their vnablenessein guing examples of Protestancy during the former ages The like dispairing Answere D Fulke vseth vpon the same point saying to his Aduersary Proferre me iubes teto orbe latitantes vah quam iniquum postulas Thou willest me to produce and name those which did lye secret through out the World how iniust a thing dost thou here demand The second Obseruation Seing the Church of God is at al times and seasons without the least discontinuance thereof to be Visibile and to enioy a publike administration of the Word and Sacraments as aboue we al haue proued That therefore such Instances of Protestancy which may be giuen by you hereafter supposing them to be true do but iustify Visibility of your Church only for so long no longer as the said Protestants did liue And therefore except you be able to produce examples of Protestancy for al ages since Christ if you do fayle herein but for any one only age it necessarily followeth that Church of the Protestants as wanting this vninterrupted Visibility is not the Church of Christ described in the old Testament and their prophecyed of in so many different places The third and last Obseruation That one may truly and iustly be called a Protestant two things among others must necessatily concurre The one that he do mantayne al the chiefest points of Protestancy Thus he is not to hould only some few points of Protestancy and in the rest being more in number and of greater importance to pertake with the Catholicks seeing such a Man is rather as beleiuing more Articles of Catholicke Religion then of Protestancy to be reputed a Catholicke then a Protestant for his denomination is to be giuen him rather according to the greater and weightier number of Articles beleeued by him ther otherwise though to speake the truth such a Man so beleeuing is formally neither Catholicke not Protestant The second thing necessary to the being of a Protestant is that he doth not hould pertinaciously any
mayne Heresies or Paradoxes wholy impugned gainsaid and contradicted both by Protestant and Catholicke For this Man in this respecte is to be styled rather an open Hereticke then a Protestant euen in the censure of the Protestants themselues Therefore to conclude this last obseruation Euen as when beasts of seueral Kyndes or species do coople together that which is ingendred is of a third Kinde diuers from them both So here that Religion or fayth which is as it were propagated from the mixture of contrary Religions must be a beliefe different from them al. These things being premised now M. Doctour or either of you two may begin to instance in Protestant Professours for euery age And I shall reply therto as my iudgment and reading wil best inable me OCHINVS I do like well of these your animaduertions and they are able in a cleare iudgement to fanne away imperfect and faulty instances from such as be true and perfect MICHAEAS Before any of you begin your discours of Instancing I must demand of you al as Cardinal Bellarmyne did in his late discours with D. Whitakers whether you wil be content to stand to the authority of your owne learned Brethren in al the following passages betweene vs D. REYNOLDS I here answere for vs al We will indisputably stand to our owne mens learned iudgmeÌ„ts And if you can conuince either our future examples or our cause in generall from our Protestants penns we yeald you the victory For I do hould with Osiander the Protestant that the Confession and testimony of an Aduersary is of greatest authority And therefore Peter Martyr truly saith surely among other testimonyes that is of greatest weight which is giuen by the Enemyes And D. Bancrofs to omit al other Protestants in this point confirmeth the same thus writing Let vs take hould of that which they haue granted you may be bould to build thereupon for a truth that they are so constrained to yeeld vnto Which kinde of proofe is no lesse warranted by the Auncient Fathers for Ireneus saith It is an vnanswerable proofe which bringeth attestation from the Aduersaries themselues And Nazianzen pronounceth thus hereof It is the greatest cuâ—ning and wisdome of speech to bynd the Aduersary with his owne words So full you see Michaeas I am in this point But now let vs come to the maine matter To produce instances of Protestancy shal be my peculiar Scene And that I may the better marshal and incampe as it were my examples thereby the more forcibly to inuade your iudgment I will begin with the later times of the Church and so ascend vpwards And first for these last threescore yeares the Gospell of Christ hath enioyed here in England to forbeare all other Countreyes it Visibility in it full Orbe all writers of these dayes and other Nations acknowledging no lesse Againe in K. Edward the sixt his time this worthy Man Ochinus here present backed with the like endeauours of the learned Peter Martyr did so plant our Protestant fayth in our Nation as that infinite most remarkable Professours thereof did instantly growne like roses after a long cold or tempest blooming forth through the heate of the Sunne with refeâ—erence of which Professours Ochinus may iustly apply to himselfe the words of Aenias Quorum pars magna fui MICHAEAS Concerning the Professours of Protestancy here in England since Queene Elizabeth came to the Crowne I easily grant they haue been most Visible as I gather out of your English Chronicles And thus I freely confesse that Protestancy hath continued in England some threescore and seauen yeares But where you say that Protestancy I meane as it comprehendeth all the Articles taught at this day for Protestancy and which necessarily concurre to the making of a perfect complete Protestant was fully taught and beleiued in K. Edward his dayes I absolutely deny OCHINVS Will you deny Michaeas so manifest a verity whereas myselfe was not only an eyewitnesse in those times but If I may speake in modesty a greate Cause thereof What will you not deny if you deny such illustrious Trueths and what hope can we haue of your bettering by this our disputation MICHAEAS Good Ochinus beare me not downe with astreame of vaunting words the refuse of speech but if you can with force of argument I peremptorily deny the former point and for iustifying this my deniall I wil recurre to the Communion Booke set out in K. Edwards time with the approbation and allowance as D. Doue a Protestant affirmeth of Peter Martyr your Cooperatour Which Booke we must presume in al reason was made according to the publike fayth of the King and the Realme established in those tymes and the rather considering that the said Communion Booke for it greater authority was warranted in the Kings time by Act of Parliament Now this Communion Booke or publicke Lyturgy of the fayth of England in those dayes being printed in folio by Edward Whit-church anno 1549. pertaketh in many points with our Roman Religion For it maketh speciall defence for Ceremonyes and prescribeth that the Eucharist shal be consecrated with the signe of the Crosse It commandeth consecration of the Water of Baptisme with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth of Chrisme as also of the Childs annoynting and Exorcisme In that booke mention is made of prayer for the dead and intercession and offering vp of our Prayers by Angells It deffendeth Baptisme giuen by Laypersons in time of necessity and the grace of that Sacrament as also Confirmation of children and strength giuen them thereby It mentioneth according to the custome vsed in tyme at Masse at this very day the Priests turning sometimes to the Altar and sometimes to the People It ordayneth that answerably yet to our Catholike custome Alleluya should be said from Easter to Trinity sunday It prescribeth the Priest blessing of the Bryde brydegroome with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth the Priests absolution of the sicke Penetent with these particular words By the authority committed vnto me I absolute thee of all thy sinns It mentioneth a speciall Confession of the sicke Penitent And lastly it commandeth the annoynting of the sicke Person which we Catholicks call the Sacrament of Extreme Vnction So little reason Ocbinus you see you haue to affirme that the Protestancy of the present Church of England is the same which was mantained and publikely established by King Edward OCHINVS Indeede I grant the Communion booke was then made by the consent of the Parliament but I instructed those with whom I conuersed to reiect those superstitions their confirmed D. REYNOLDS Well let that passe It auayleth not much whether Protestancy was here in England at those dayes or no since it is certaine it was then most fully dilated in many other Countryes by the late afore raysing vp of Luther who was miraculously sent by the Holy
after I haue finished my Discours your morning and more retyred thoughts will at lest in the secrets of your owne Iudgment geue an other censure hereof And I will begin in deliuering the Positions doctrines which the most accomplished Protestants for literature haue left of this Argument in their Bookes and wrytings And first do we not find Luther euen to denye all secular principality as most vnlawful now in these Christian dayes For thus he wryteth Among Christian Men none is superiour saue one and only Christ As also more fully Among Christians no man can or ought to be a Magistrate but eich one is to other equally subiect And further in contempt of all Magistrats touching matters of Religion he thus discourseth As Christ caÌ„not suffer hymselfe to be tyed and bound by Lawes c. So ought not the Conscience of a Christian to suffer them And more Yf the Ciuil Magistrate should contend that his Commandements be necessary to saluation then as it is said of the Traditions of the Papists the contrary is to be donne Thus we find that Luther is not affraid not only to impugne all Magistracy and domination in certaine cases but he is also not ashamed to dogmatize and teach in his wrytings that there neither are nor ought to be any true souerainty or Princes at all now in the dayes of Christ To which Princes partly their Eminency graced with Pompe and state but chiefly an innate imbred Obedience to Power and Maiesty God and Nature making that now good which law of man did first ordayne induce men to exhibit all due reuerence and veneration In compare of whom euen the greatest subiects are to seeme but priuate obscure like the brightest starrs which are darkened in the presence of a fayrer light VICE CHANCELOVR Touching Luther Michaeas you must know that although we acknowledge him to haue been a great instrument of God for the reuealing in these later tymes the Gospell of Christ yet we grant that in some points he varyed from the Truth and particularly in denying all Magistracy and Principality But all other cheife Professours of our Religion concurrently teach with vs the lawfulnes of Princes and all due Obedience vnto them MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour If Luther by your owne acknowledgment did erre in this point how then can you rest assured that he did not erre in other points of fayth first by him broached and after entertayned by you Since he had no better warrant for teaching the truth in the one then in the other and it is certayne that a manifest errour but in one point carryeth with it a possibility of erring in any other point But to come to your answere I say the contrary thereto will presently appeare For is it not euident that Swinglius a man of extraordinary note among you thus teacheth Quando perfide extra regulam Christi egerint Principes possunt deponâ— When Princes do euill and contrary to the rule of Christ they may be deposed Thus Swinglius who there warranteth this his doctrine from the example of Saule whom God deposed although afore he designed him King Yea Swinglius thus further proceedeth Due reuerence it to be promised to Caesar if so be permitteth to vs our Religion inuiolable Thus intimating that if the Prince doth not permit Religion then no honour is to be giuen but resistance is to be made Swinglius furthermore continueth his former discours in these very words Romanum Imperium â—mâ— quâ—duâ—s aliud Imperium vbi religionem sinceram opprimere caperit c. If the Roman Emperour or any other Prince or Soueraigne shall beginne to oppresse the sincere Religion nos illud negligentes patimâ— c. And we negligently suffer the same We shall stand charged with contempt thereof as much as euen the oppâ—essours themselues An assertion so much displeasing to other more sober and quyet Protestants that D. Bilson doth rest much distâ—sted with those words of Swinglius saying in lieu of further answere to them As I muse at Swiâ—glius his words so I like not his iudgment VICE-CHANCELOVR Mich 〈…〉 You know well that Swinglius and Luther liued both in one tyme togeather I meane then when though many Articles of the 〈◊〉 were by them discouered yet all were not discouered but happâ—ly they might mantayne some errours The Sunne of Christs Gospell not as then arriuing to it Meridian and full ascent And indeed it is a kind of imperfection and as I may tearme it a signe of an ouer rigid nature to expect in the wâ—yters of those firster tymes no imperfection at all But now in these more late and refyned dayes the Professours of the Gospell haue wholy exploded the former doctrine of Luther and Swinglius herein For what Men do more aduance defend the dignity and soueraignty of Princes then we do in our Sermons and other our priuat Conferences MICHAEAS If you do so much magnify in your Pulpitts as you say you do the regallity of Princes it is to the end that in the close I speake only but of some of you you may the better vndermyne them all like the earth which for the tyme nurrisheth all Creatures yet finally deuoureth all Creatures But because you reply that the Professours comming after Luther and Swinglius cannot be blemished in their wrytings with any spot of disloyalty Therefore to follow you in your owne method therein I will come by degrees from Luther and Swinglius euen to these our dayes and so descending in tymes I will ascend in weight and force of Argument And now to come to Caluin who next in tyme succeeded Swiglius and towards whom most of you Protestants do commit a Kynd of Idolatry It is ouer euident that Caluin thus wryteth of Princes and their authority Earthly Princes do depr 〈…〉 themselfs of authority when they erect themselfs against God yea they are vnworthy to be accounted in the number of Men and we are rather to spit vpon their fâ—ces then to obey them Thus we se that Caluin teacheth that Princes commanding thiâ—gs vnlawfull do vtterly depryue themselfs of all authority and regality where with a fore they were inuâ—sted With which former Words of Caluin D. Wilks no vulgar ProtestaÌ„t doth vppraid the Puritans in this sort They were your teachers who account those Princes who are not resined by their spirit vnworthy to be accounted among the number of Men and therefore rather to be spitted vpon then obeyed They were your teachers who defend Rebellion against Princes of a different Religion Thus D. Wilkâ— To come next to Beza He was so full and intemperate in ouerthrowing the authority of Princes as that he did purposely wryte a booke of this very Subiect styling it De 〈◊〉 Magistratuum in subâ—â—tos a booke much dislyked by D. Bancroft the late Arch Bishop of Canterbury and D. Succlâ—ffe Which Doctour tâ—us censureth thereof Beza in his booke of the