Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	believe_v	church_n	err_v	1,967	5	9.6697	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A08330	A true report of the priuate colloquy betweene M. Smith, aliâs Norrice, and M. VValker held in the presence of two vvorthy knights, and of a few other gentlemen, some Catholikes, some Protestants : with a briefe confutation of the false, and adulterated summe, which M. Walker, pastour of S. Iohn Euangelist in Watling-streete, hath diuulged of the same.	S. N. (Sylvester Norris), 1572-1630.; Walker, George, 1581?-1651.	1624 (1624)	STC 18661; ESTC S461	30,866	65

signifieth to redeeme as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Greeke Redime doth in Latin hence Peric signifieth a Redeemer Purkan Redemption and so Theodotio so Vatablus so S. Ierome and so all others expresse the word wherfore either all texts are falsified or all are true If all be false the Hebrew is tainted with corruption as wel as the Greeke and Latin if all true your translation is inexcusable in discording frō the truth of all originalls from the version of all the Auncients Syr Edward Harwood with others These Disputations about the Hebrew text are aboue our capacity an● filter for the Schooles I pray you descend to some more profitable matter and easier for our vnderstanding M. SMITH Vpon this motion only I ceased to rip vp the residue of Protestant corruptions but not because neyther I nor my Companion had any more to say as M. Walker according to his fashion peruersly relateth for infinite other deprauations of theirs are obuious and apparent as the fraudulency they vse in translating one and the same Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Traditio For in such textes as mention good and holsome Traditions they in lieu of Traditions read Ordinances where the Scripture speaketh of such as be naughty or friuolous they in hatred of our Apostolicall Traditions carefully set downe the right word Traditions The same deceit they practise in expressing the Hebrew word Sheol Hell For where it may import a third place besides Heauen Hell they warily turne it into Graue Gen. 37. v. 35. Osee 13. v. 14. but where it cannot be meant of any other then of the dungeon of the damned there they rightly translate it as in the 15. of the Prouerbes v. 24. Hel beneath I might haue vrged how they iuggle with the word worthy or make worthy against the merit of workes how they change Iustifications into Statutes Iustice into Righteousnes against inherent Iustice how they sometyme forsake the Hebrew and retire to the Greeke as in the 9 of Prouerbes v. 2. Wisdome hath mingled her wine because the Hebrew word Masecha wholy fauoureth the ancient mingling of water and wine in the Chalice which the Fathers vrge as necessary and Protestants vtterly neglect they fly to the ambiguity of the Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which may signify to powre out as well as to mingle so did they alwayes read before his Maiesties Correction Otherwhiles they leaue the Greeke and haue recourse to the Latin as Act. 13. though the Greeke be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they sacrificing to our Lord as Erasmus translateth it yet your translation still runneth according to the Latine they ministring vnto our Lord because you cannot abide that word although written by God which doth any way relish of the Sacrifice of the Masse These and a thousand such of your guilefull sleights I might haue alleadged howbeit to condescend to the reasonable motion of Syr Edward Harwood and the rest I willingly omitted them and returned to prooue the second part of my first Antecedent which you denied The Antecedent was this The Word of God preached in the Church of England is corrupted with errours and the men that deliuer it are subiect to errours The former part is already prooued by the manifest adulterations of your Bible before mentioned The second Part. That your men also are subiect to errour I conuince by the confessiō of M. Reynoldes M. Whitaker and the most learned Protestantes of our tyme who expresly write that the true Church which they suppose theirs to be may erre and all her Pastours in some points of fayth euen necessary to saluation Therfore your men your Preachers and Pastours are subiect to errour M. WALKER I graunt that the true Church may erre for a tyme insome one fundamentall point necessary to saluation this I affirme of the Protestant Church of our Church of England Ground what you can vpon this M. SMITH Though some of the Catholikes heerevpon cryed out We haue inough inough let vs leaue of our dispute yet to giue more full satisfaction to the Protestāt Gentlemen who perceaued not so soone the absurdity of this Paradoxe or folly of M. VValker in granting that very part of my Antecedent which before he denyed I proceeded a little further and argued thus against him If your Church may erre in one point necessary to saluation it may as well erre in another and so cā propose nothing vndoubtedly to be belieued as an article of fayth Which inference though M. VValker denyed and with many cauillations laboured to diuert yet it euidently followeth as I thus declare That Church which hath not sufficient authority to persuade all the mysteries of fayth she proposeth to be infallibly true can propose nothing vndoubtedly to be belieued as an article of fayth But your Church which may erre now in one point now in another at least for a tyme hath not sufficient authority to persuade all the mysteries of fayth she proposeth to be infallibly true Therefore your Church can propose nothing vndoubtedly to be belieued as an article of fayth For seeing the Articles in which your Church may erre are not specified by God nor knowne to your followers they may iustly feare and suspect least those she now proposeth be some of them in which she may erre But with feare and suspition no fayth can stand nothing can she propose which ought vndoubtedly to be belieued as S. Augustine in the like case most excellently discourseth saying How can he be belieued who thinketh he may sometyme tell a lye for perchance he then lyeth when he c●mmaūdeth vs to beleeue him So you that hold your Church may sometyme erre haue cause to doubt least then perchance she erreth when she commaundeth you to follow her doctrine If cause to doubt no cause to obey no cause to credit her Nay it implyeth cōtradictiō we should with diuine fayth giue credit vnto her For by fayth we are assured that the thing she teacheth cannot possibly be otherwise then we belieue By doubtfulnes or suspicion we mistrust they may be otherwise Els why do we doubt Why do we suspect Therfore it is a manifest implicancy and irreconciliable cōtradiction that fayth and doubtfulnes should cōsist togeather that we should be vndoubtedly persuaded of the truth proposed yet stagger and misdoubt of the truth therof as you haue iust cause to do as long as you maintayne that your Church may deceaue you Besides to prooue out of the former Paradoxe that your Church is not the true Church I framed these Syllogismes That Church which may erre for a tyme in a fūdamentall point necessary to saluation hath no certainty for that tyme. Yours is such Ergo it is no true Church Againe That Church which may erre for a tyme in a fūdamentall point necessary to saluation hath not sufficient meanes of saluation for that tyme. Yours is such Ergo it is no true Church M. WALKER These

distinction between a thing as he tearmeth it and it selfe because I sayd that the act of Christs Resurrection was a true matter of fact a diuine Verity yet no article of fayth which the Apostles then were bound expresly to belieue But is this so strange I will giue you an instance of the like strange distinction The validity of baptisme ministred by Heretiks was alwayes a diuine Verity alwayes a truth sufficiently reuealed in holy Scriptures in the first of S. Iohn and the third of S. Luke where it is written It is he that baptizeth Christ is the principall agent whose action cannot be frustrated by the faultes of his instrument yet this was not alwayes an article of fayth vntill it was publickly defined by the Consistory of Gods Church which caused Vincentius Lirynensis to free them from heresy who defended the contrary before to condemne such as persisted in vpholding it after the definition his wordes are these O wonderfull change and alteration of thinges The Fathers of one and selfe same opinions are adiudged Catholiques the followers Heretiques the maysters are acquitted the disciples condēned the wryters of bookes shall be Sonnes of the kyngdome the maintainers of the same shall be cast into hell Finally M. Walker for his vpshot relateth the commendation a Catholike gaue him of his noble conquest after he was thus discomfited I reprint his words which he for very shame disguiseth vnder the cloke of a third person M. WALKER When the Priestes were very willing to make an end and the Protestant Gentlemen seemed well satisfied and made them ready to depart One of the Roman Catholiques calling M. Walker aside began to collogue and flatter with him telling him that he was a good Logician a good Linguist and well read and that God had giuen him a sharp wit and ready tongue and therfore no meruaile though he preuayled and made a good cause seeme bad when he opposed it and a bad cause seem good when he defended it M. SMITH Fye fie M. Walker Are you so greedy of a little vayn-glory as thus to blazon with your owne pen for you penned the whole summe though you maske it vnder another vizard the false lustre of your supposed talents Of such as neuer were acknowledged by any of your Pew-fellowes in Cābridge much lesse extolled by the mouth of a Catholike For I enquired of the Gētlemā who cōferred with you he solemnly protesteth before God and man and is ready if need require to confirme it with his Oath yea and iuridically to diuulge it to all the word First that he neuer gaue you those high titles of commendation which you set downe Secondly that the Courtly complements he cast vpon you were meerely in iest by the figure of Ironia as the Wisedome of God iested at Adam after his fall saying Loe Adam is become as it were one of vs knowing good and euill yet such was your quick and subtile wit so worthy of admiration as it conceiued that to be spoken in good earnest which was vttered in derision to laugh you to scorne By which and by all the former passages euery indifferēt man may easily perceiue 1. How poore a Religion Protestancy is and how weake a Patrone heere she had who could bring no better propps to sustaine it then knauery fraudulency lyes and falsifications 2. How Thraso-lyke M. Walker boasteth of the Victory and endeth the scene of his fabulous discourse with that triumphātsentence Magna est veritas praeualet Great is truth and it doth preuaile For vnlesse salshood may be inthroned in the chaire of Truth and Vanity possesse the seat of Verity farre too-too farre is he from preuayling who hath ben conuicted and notably disgraced with so many tergiuersations digressions forgeryes and grosse absurdityes who hath byn driuen to such shamefull begging of the principall question to grant that after which before he had denyed to deny that now which he formerly granted yea to a flat ●ntrariety and playne contradiction the greatest ●yles a Scholler can take He I say who hath byn ●ot only vanquished and defeated but chased out ●f the field at euery encounter In which neuertheesse if he had stood and vpheld his quarrell as God forbid he should seeth he not what horrible crimes he had layd to the Apostles charge What ●famies on their flock Seeth he not what a breach ●e had made in Syon What ruines in his owne Ierusalē For by attaching the Apostolicall Church of erring in a fundamentall point manifestly reuealed in holy Scripture and often intimated by the Sonne of God he attacheth it of Infidelity he enditeth it of Heresie and wholy depriueth it of the happy meanes of saluation For the entire profession of sauing truth as Caluin Field and other prime Protestants confesse with vs is necessary to the state of saluatiō which the Apostolical Church wanted when it erred according to him in that essentiall article of Christs Resurrection it wanted then the soueraigne meanes of attayning eternall blisse and so could not be the spouse of Christ the gate of life the temple of God or Church of his beloued sonne without all-sauing truth it is impossible to be his sauing Church The same is more strongly confirmed by the dotage it selfe M. Walker very dotingly laboured to proue or else proued nothing for his purpose That the Apostolike Church erred in a fundamentall point necessary to saluation For if it was necessary the Church could not be saued without it if it might be saued without it it was not an article at that tyme necessary to be belieued Neyther doth he only bereaue that pure and primitiue flocke of the riches of blisse of the integrity of fayth in that one he specified but by the same argument in all other points of belief For as by one mortall sinne the Vertue of charity is wholy expelled according to S. Iames He that offendeth in one is made guilty of all so by one only Heresy or act of Infidelity the habit of fayth is vtterly lost which S. Paul teacheth affirming that Hymenaus and Alexander made ship wrack of their fayth albeit they only denied one sole article to wit the future Resurrection of our flesh Which the Fathers witnesse when they auouch that such as fall into Heresy are degraded of the dignity and right of Christianity Which D. Whitaker also approueth saying If any one fundamentall point of doctrine be remoued the Church presently falleth Wherupon it followeth that the Apostolicall Church was presently buried in her owne ruines that the Apostles made ship wrack of their fayth that they were no Chistians when they beleeued not the Resurrection of Christ if then they were bound to receiue it as a fundamentall article of their beliefe Nay it followeth hereon that the whole fould of Christ for it was wholy no doubt inwrapped in the Apostles errour became ô monstrous impiety and most hellish consequence became I say a heard of

themselues are infallible for as long as any of these closely adhere to the word of God are guided by his doctrine and follow his direction so long they cannot erre And what hath your Church no more priuiledge or freedome from errour then Iewes then Turkes then Diuels M. WALKER Yes because Iewes and Turkes adhere not to the word of God they follow not the truth we doe M. SMITH Doe you because you say you doe Will not they say the same haue as good warrant as you But how shall we know you follow the truth what proofs alleage you To chaleng it thus without proofes seeing it is the matter controuerted between vs is Petere principium that is miserably to begge the argument we handle or to giue that for a reason which is only in question both most ridiculous and hissed out of all schooles Therfore M. Walker was so wary as to conceale in his Sūme this inference of mine and the foolish reply or desperate Non-plus of his Moreouer to say your Church cannot erre as it cleaueth close to Gods Word speaketh and teacheth according to it or as long as it swarueth not from thence is nothing els thē to auouch though in other wordes that it cannot erre as it cleaueth to truth speaketh and teacheth according to truth or that it cannot erre as long as it erreth not which is as idle as the former was foolish because to adhere to Gods word is to adhere to the truth to swarue from thence is to runne into errour So that this answere is nothing to the purpose no way able to satisfie my demand for by asking of you Whether your Church may erre or no I demaund whether it be so assisted by God and guided by his holy spirit as it must needs cleaue to his word it cannot depart from it in deliuering any point of faith What answere you to this is your Church thus inerrable or no M. WALKER I haue told you alreadie how it may erre and how it may not M. SMITH And I haue refuted what you sayed If you haue nothing els to answere to my Interrogatories answere me a little to a Syllogisme or two I shall propose by which I meane to proue euen by this which you haue graunted that the Protestants Church of England is not the true Church of IESVS Christ. And thus I frame my argument That Church which hath not the word of God trulie preached and infallibly deliuered is not the true Church of IESVS Christ. But the Protestant Church of England hath not the word of God trulie preached and infallibly deliuered Therfore it is not the true Church of IESVS Christ. M. WALKER I denie the Minor M. SMITH I proue the Minor The word of God preached in the Church of England is corrupted with errours and the men that deliuer it are subiect to errours Therfore the Church of England hath not the word of God truly preached and infallibly deliuered M. WALKER I deny the Antecedent M. SMITH The Antecedent hath two parts the first of them I declare by induction Malachy 2. v. 7. where all true copies haue The lippes of the Priest shall keepe knowledge and the law they shal● require of his mouth you corruptly reade The lippes of the Priest should keepe knowledge and they should require the law of his mouth contrary to the Hebrew text which insteed of shall keepe hath Iism●ru insteed of shall seeke Iebakkesu contrary to the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contrary the Latine which is custodient and requirent all being of the Future tense and Indicatiue moode which you haue changed into the Preterimperfectense of the Optatiue or Subiunctiue moode altering therin both moode and tense of set purpose to gainsay the infallibility of Christs visible pastours who lawfully succeed in the Apostles roome and to patronage an errour or rather Heresy of your owne That the Priests Prelats of Gods Church may erre in doctrine and so the people not bound to require the law at their mouthes M. WALKER We haue not corrupted the Hebrew text for the true meaning of the Holy Ghost is perfectly deliuered by our Translation M. SMITH But answere me directly Are not the Hebrew Greeke and Latin wordes all in the future Tense Do they not all import shall keepe and shall require And haue not you altered both the tense and moode Is it not so what say you M. WALKER Though the wordes be in the future tense yet wee haue kept the true sense because the future tense in Hebrew by reason of vau conuersiuum may sometime stand for the preterimperfect tense of the Optatiue Potentiall o● Subiunctiue moode as our translation hath therfore it is no● different nor irregular from the Hebrew which is the Originall M. SMITH But this is a meere collusion for heere is no Vau conuersiuum in that place nor can there be as all that are cunninge in the Hebrew can tell so that this shift will not serue your turne nor that other of keeping the sense For I accuse you of corrupting the text But to alter the tense to alter the moode to alter the word of the Holy Ghost is to corrupt the text to change the diuine characters written by the finger of God Therfore your Translation is guilty of this change and corruption Otherwise if adulterers of Scripture may iudge of the sense where shall you find any adulteration what Heretike can be conuinced of corruptiō For aske the Arians aske the Valentinians aske Marcion who for paring or gnawing away many places of Gods word was called Mus-Ponticus the mouse of Pontus aske any of these Corrupters they will all answere they keep the sense bring as sound arguments as you do for the maintenance therof for such is your proofe M. WALKER It was ●euer the purpose of Gods spirit in that place or by these wordes to teach that the law should awayes be taught truly and infallibly by the Priests and Pastours who succe●d Moyses or the Apostles locally in the church by a continued succession M. SMITH Heere againe you fall to Petere principium for we proue it was his purpose because his wordes enforce it And haue you no other meanes to disproue it then by denying it was his purpose because he did neuer purpose it And why did he neuer purpose it Because is not agreable to the purpose of your Hereticall phrensie Though it be consonāt agreable to Gods sacred doctrine vttered vnfolded in diuers other places as when he sayeth that his spirit his wordes shal not depart out of the mouth of his Prophets and their seede and seeds seede for euer That he who heareth the Pastours of the Church heareth him That if any controuersy arise amongst inferiours they shall come to the Priests of the Leuiticall stocke and do whatsoeuer they shall teach according to the law It is consonant to these texts and sundry the like to which

your translation being dissonant it must needes be not only a corruption of the text but a deprauation also of the sense of the Holy Ghost M. WALKER That cannot be the sense because the Priests vnto whome the Prophet speaketh there in the 2. of Malachy were Leuites and succeded Aaron in the Priesthood and yet they were departed out of the way they caused many to fall in the law by their corrupt glosse and their abuse of the couenant of Leui c. Yea some of them had sacrificed to Idols as Iosephus sheweth in his history M. SMITH As though it were necessary for al Priests that haue lawfull calling to be free from errour or such as are fensed from erring in fayth should neuer be able to stumble in their liues It is inough for the infalibility of Christs Spouse that the high Priest and his Consistory that the head of the Church her generall Councels be inerrable It is inough that God doth preserue his truth in the mouthes of vicious and wicked men as in the mouthes of Scribes and Pharisies when they sate on Moyses his Chaire as the guift of prophesie in Ciaphas of whom S. Iohn recordeth that he prophesied because he was high Priest of that yeare Seest thou sayth S. Chrysostome how great the power of Po●t●sic ●ll authority is Gr●ce 〈◊〉 touched the mouth but not the ●ewd and villanous ●art And S. 〈◊〉 of naughty pastours auoucheth Will they nill they c. they shall speake the wordes of God by reason of the promise which heere and els where he hath made them M. WALKER God did not make he●re a promise but gaue a commandement teaching what the Priests and people should do and ought to do like that Thou shalt haue no other Gods but me M. SMITH In respect of the people I grant it is a Commandement of God that they ought to learne and require the law from the mouthes of the Priests And I wonder how you presume to infring this cōmaundement by sending them from their publick voices to your secret spirits or hidden perswasions Then by your owne cōfession because it is the cōmaundement and Precept of God which the people as you write ought to obey it must needes follow that his Priests haue his infallible promise and assurance of truth otherwise the people could not with security repayre vnto them otherwise they might erre and be deluded by them in matters of fayth they might be frustrated of their hope forfeite their saluation euen by following the expresse will and commaundement of God which without open blasphe●y cannot be auerred The same is manifestly declared by the reason the Holy Ghost assigneth why the lippes of the Priest shall keepe knowledge because he is the Angell of the Lord of Hostes H● is called saith S. Cyrill the Angell of the Lord of Hostes because he deliuereth vnto mē the Oracles of●iod ●dding nothing withdrawing nothing but e●en the same ●e rec●iued of God S. Chrysostome The Priest is the Angell of our Lord he speaketh nothing of him selfe if thou despise th●u despisest not him but God Moreouer if this were only a commaundemēt giuen to Priests by way of direction what they should do why did not your Translation expresse it according to the Hebrew in the future tēse as they did other Commaundements Thou shalt haue no other Gods but me Thou shalt not ste●le Thou shalt not commit adultery c Surely their conscience gaue them that something more was heere cōprized or els they would neuer haue altered the moode and tense they would neuer haue bin more affrayde of translating this commaundement truly agreable to the Originall then they were of others This chāge this alteration pleadeth them guilty for let the sense be what it will though I haue euidently demonstrated it to be as we teach Either the Holy Ghost knew better then Protestants what tense he should vse to expresse that sense or they better then he Did they know better O how detestable is their blasphemy in ascribing more knowledge to men thē to God! Did he know better O how diucl●●sh was their arrogancy in presuming to alter the Tense oracled by the Holy Ghost which he knew to be best knew to be most fit for the explication of his meaning This is such a horned argument or vnauoidable dilemma as neither M. Walker nor any other Minister is able to answere Another corruption though more cunningly conueyed is discouered in the 4. of Daniel v. 24. or 27. where the English Bible hath Breake off thy sinnes by righteousnes c. insteed of Redeeme thou thy sinnes with Almes For in the Latine it is Redime in Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Hebrew in rather in the Chaldeak it is Peruc of Perac the roote which also signifieth to Redeeme M. WALKER That translation is senseles and against all reason for God neuer appoynted that mens sinn●s should be redeemed M. SMITH Your proofe indeed is without sense or reason it is that idle Petitio principij of which you haue bin often accused yet for meere want of wit can neuer auoid Haue you no better stuffe to alleadge then this M. WALKER Yes if you vnderstand that Nabuchod●nozor ● wicked Heathen King should by his owne righteousnes redeeme himselfe from his sinnes you make Daniel a teacher of Heresie and blasphemie M. SMITH You are spitefully bent stil to wrangle or els you must needes know I vnderstand it not of his owne righteousnes For Daniell exhorteth him to frequent almesdeedes which first by way of congruity might procure Gods fauour and after deseruedly redeeme or satisfie for the punishment of his sinnes Which is a heauenly point of fayth inculcated againe by the Holy Ghost in the Prouerbs By mercy and truth iniquity is redeemed or purged as your owne Bible readeth though that which followeth in your Pamphlet be a most horrible and monstrous slaunder that Papists goe on in knowne sinne in hope of absolution by confession and pennance when we constantly teach that neither of them can auaile without detestation of sinne and full purpose of amendement To this slaunder is ioyned another of his notable leasinges reporting me to haue sayd that Peruc signifies only to redeeme wheras I confessed at the beginning that it signified to destroy redeeme breake in peeces breake asunder but neuer to cease to doe or breake off a worke as their translation runneth Syr Edward Harwood Well if the word doth import to breake in peeces and we haue to breake off then me thinkes the differēce seemes but small This was that he spake but he sayd not as M. Walker outfacingly belyeth him that M. Smith had fayled much in his pr●ofe he was of a more mild and generous disposition thē euer to let fall any such speach M. SMITH The lesse the difference may seeme the more pernicious if it iarre as this doth frō the harmony of Fayth for the word in his natiue

second Principle presupposeth that Faith must not only be infallible but whole also and entire Witnes S. Athanasius in the beginning of his Creed Whosoeuer doth not beleiue the Catholike faith wholy i●uiolably he shall vndoubtedly perish And S. Leo A great safeguard is faith entire true faith in which nothing can be added by any nothing de●racted because vnlesse fayth be one it is no fayth the Apostle auerring One Lord One fayth To which purpose our Sauiour himself auoucheth He that beleiueth not shall be condemned that is he that beleiueth not euery Article expresly or implicitely he that beleiueth not the whole summe of Christian doctrine shall incurre the forfaiture of his saluation For as all thinges are to be obserued whatsoeuer Christ commanded so all thinges to be beleiued whatsoeuer he taught and in such manner that albeit the mysteries in themselues are some of lesse some of greater moment some necessary some contingent yet as they are testified reuealed by God they ought all with equall certaintie with the same suretie to be credited imbraced because God in all things little or great necessarie or contingent is equally great of infallible credit Wherby euery Article is so fast riuetted and conioyned one with the other in such vniforme due proportion as they make sayth S. Gregory Nazianzen A Chayne truly golden and soueraigne From which if your withdraw but one you withdraw your saluation as S. Ambrose writeth The third principle is that the ordinary meanes of atteyning the whole and infallible fayth is from the mouth of the Church from the lipps of her Priests because fayth is by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ to wit by the word expounded and preached vnto vs by his lawfull Pastours for it goeth immediatly before How shall they heare without à Preacher and how shall they preach vnlesse they be sent Whervpon it necessarily ensueth that if they be sent from God to teach his heauenly doctrine if we be bound to beleiue vpon their testification and preaching their preaching must be certaine their testification vndeceiuable that we may securely receyue the word they deliuer not as the word of men but as it is indeed the word of God who by their mouthes speaketh by their testimony sealeth and witnesseth it vnto vs especially seeing he commandeth vs to heare them as himself to obey them as his Vicegerents to beleiue them vnder penaltie of damnation seing he giueth them the Holy Ghost to teach them all truth to sanctifie them in veritie that we be not carryed about with any winde of doctrine Therefore as God cannot immediatly by himself or mediatly by any other deliuer that which may be doubtfull or vncertaine so much lesse by the mouth of those his witnesses his iudges his interpreters by whome he vttereth the Oracles of truth as I might more fullie demonstrate if I had not already elswhere vncontrollably euicted and proued the same Yea the very nature and condition of fayth perforce requireth it for that being an assent of our vnderstanding to thinges not appearing that is not appearing true through the euidence of truth in themselues or through the light of humane reason but only by this Authority of God who testifieth them not immediatly but by the meanes of his Church by the true Pastors and expounders of his word if they might vary or fluctuate in the rules they follow of expounding Scripture their expositions were wauering their preaching vncōstant they could neither assuredly teach nor we vndoubtedly giue credit to that which they propose as to constant stable and immoueable truth For it is a warrantable position of M. Whitakers Such as the meanes be such of necessitie must be the interpretation it selfe But the meanes of interpreting obscur● places are vncertaine doubtfull and ambiguous Then it cannot possibly be but that the interpretation it self is vncertaine if vncertaine then may it be false But if it may be false as M. Walker acknowledgeth the interpretation of the Protestants Church may be it ouerthroweth the ground of fayth the foundation of Religion For what els can be or any of his fellowes assig●e on which they stay o● an●ker the certaintie of diuine beleife Their particuler pastor Their priuate spirit But if their Pastours in generall may trip and slumble how much more their particular If the publicke spirit of their Church be errable how deceiuable is their priuate Againe the priuate spirit is hidden it cannot be discouered and opened to others and yet it is open it self to a thousand illusions Therefore it must be tryed by some more known and certaine spirit What then do you build vpō the voice of God that speaketh in the Scripture but that voyce is no other then the bare word or out ward letter of Holy writ of that ariseth our strife and debate That also speaketh most errably to you as your owne contentions and infinite hersies sprung from thence beare euident witnes If your reply that it speaketh inerrably to such a read and heare it with faith and humilitie as they ought you send me still a rouing in the wildernes of vncertaintie for how shall I know who they be that obserue those conditions as they ought And what is this as they ought after your Puritanicall or Caluinian manner Lastly let it be for this wil be your last and poorest refuge that the true Church of IESVS Christ hath alwayes such well known to him what is this to you if you know them not What if we disproue as we plainly doe your Church to be his Where are your humble Readers your faithfull interpreters Or to yield you the vttermost your can aske though most impudently begged at our hands let there be such Readers such Interpreters among you eyther they alwayes infallibly obserue the conditions specified interpreting still a right and then your Church by their direction contrarie to your Tenent can neuer erre Or they fallibly obserue them and so your Church may run astray it cannot be the pillar of faith the storehouse of truth the voyce or trumpet of supernaturall beleife as my last two Syllogismes printed by M. Walker vndeniably conclude which as long as they shall remaine registred in his Pamphlet so long shall it beare the record of his owne disgrace so long shall it proclayme the victorie of our Catholike cause so long shall the Protestant Church lie panting in the dust without life without strength without vitall breath Now let vs behold what new life M. Walker can breath into it to reuiue it againe Marry that a true Christian Church may erre for a tyme in some one fundamentall poynt necessarie to saluation he disputeth thus M. WALKER That which the auncient Apostolicall Church might doe other succeeding Churches may doe with the same successe But the Apostolicall Church might erre and did erre in a maine poynt and yet haue a true faith and was a true