that one might dispute but I own what you say And well then answer'd I if it be so they are by the Grace of the Holy Ghost and Faith infus'd in condition to make an Act of Faith when the Faith shall be preacht to them and I ask when the Scripture acknowledg'd by the whole Church for a Word inspir'd by GOD is shewn them Whether they are not in condition to make with the whole Church this Act of Faith I believe that this Scripture is GODs Word as I believe that GOD is Mr. Claude would never acknowledge this but always answer'd That they had yet only an human Perswasion about the Scripture and that Divine Faith came not to them till they had read it If they have said I but an human Perswasion they have but a doubtful Perswasion and consequently doubt of that which is according to you the whole Foundation of the Faith In one word they are Infidels No said he they are barely ignorant and you must also say as much of the Faith one has in the Church For 't is not a matter of small difficulty to discern which is the true Church and before one is in a condition to know it of ones self one is ignorant of it or one has at most but a bare human Perswasion on the Faith of ones Parents Thus once again what you shall say upon the Church I will say to you upon the Scripture Let us see Sir answer'd I whether you will say it or whether you will have reason to say it You acknowledge then That a baptiz'd Christian who has neither read the holy Scripture nor heard it read is not in condition to make this Act of Faith I believe that this Scripture is GODs Word as I believe that GOD is Behold a terrible Inconvenience that a Believer cannot make so essential an Act of Faith 'T is not so amongst us For the Believer who receives the Holy Scripture from the Hands of the Church makes with the whole Church this Act of Faith As I believe that GOD is so I believe that this Scripture is the Word of him in whom I believe And I say that he cannot make this Act of Faith but by the Faith he has already in the Authority of the Church which presents him the Scripture I must here proceeded I throughly explicate but simply nevertheless in what Order Christians are instructed concerning the Truth of the Scripture I speak not of Infidels I speak of baptiz'd Christians and I desire you to observe well this Distinction There are two things here to be consider'd The one is who it is that inspires us with the Act of Faith by which we believe the Holy Scripture as GODs Word and we say that 't is the Holy Ghost On this we are agreed The other thing to be consider'd is what exterior Means the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture and I say That 't is the Church That it is so we need only see the Apostles Creed that is the first Instruction which a Believer receives He has not read the Holy Scripture and already he believes in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost and the Universal Church There is no mention made to him of the Scripture but the believing the Universal Church is propos'd to him as soon as the believing in the Holy Ghost These two Articles enter together into his Heart the Holy Ghost and the Church because he who believes in the Holy Ghost necessarily also believes the Universal Church which the Holy Ghost directs I say then that the first Act of Faith which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of Baptiz'd Christians is to believe with the Father Son and Holy Ghost the Universal Church and that this is the exterior Means by which the Holy Ghost insinuates into Hearts the Belief of the Holy Scripture If this Means is not certain the Faith in the Scripture will consequently be doubtful But as the Catholic has always found this Means certain there is not any Moment in which he cannot say As I believe that GOD is I believe that GOD has spoken to men and that this Scripture is his Word And the Reason for which he can at first make this Act of Faith is because he never doubted of the Churches Authority and because this is the first thing which the Holy Ghost put in his Heart with the Faith in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST As to what you ask me how he believes the Church that is not precisely our Question 'T is sufficient that we see he always believes it since 't is the first thing the Holy Ghost puts in his Heart and the exterior Means by which he makes him believe the Holy Scripture The Scripture of which he never offers to doubt since he never doubted of the Church which presents it to him This Sir is our Doctrin and because 't is not yours you necessarily fall into the Inconvenience I have noted Because you believe not the Churches Authority as a thing which cannot fail we shew you a Point of time in which you cannot make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture and consequently in which you cease to be a Believer Mr. Claude told me here That the Child who recited the Creed spake like a Parrot without Understanding what he said and so we ought not to insist much upon that And besides that I affirm'd gratis That to believe the Universal Church was the first Act of Faith which the Holy Ghost put into the Heart of the Baptiz'd Christian to insinuate to him by that means Faith in the Holy Scripture In fine That I answer'd not what he askt me concerning the Church nor how we began to believe her for said he The Holy Ghost is the Principle and not the Motive of Believing That 't was requisite therefore I should explicate how we believ'd the Church and by what Motive and that from my manner of speaking it seem'd as if we believ'd her by Enthusiasm and without any Motive inducing us so to do To this I answered I pretended not That the Church was believ'd by Enthusiasm That for the acknowledging her there were divers Motives of Credibility which the Holy Ghost suggested to his Faithful as he pleas'd That he was not ignorant of them but they were not now in Question Our Business now is said I to know whether the exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture is not the Churches Authority I speak not gratis when I say That this is the first thing which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of baptiz'd Christians for in the Creed there is mention'd to them the Universal Church and she is propos'd to their Belief without speaking to them of the Scripture 'T is to no purpose to say That Children repeat at first like Parrots both the Creed and the Name of the Universal Church Let us leave said I the Parrot that speaks only by
the Reading of the Scripture he must also be able to shew us one that precedes the Churches Instructions but this he will never find Whatever he does we shall always mark him a a Point of time before the reading of the Scripture which is that when the Church puts it into our hand but before the Church there is nothing she prevents all our Doubts by her Instructions 'T is an Error to imagin that we must always examin before we believe The Happiness of those who are born as I may say in the Bosom of the true Church is That GOD has given her such an Authority that we believe at first what she proposes and that Faith precedes or rather excludes Examination To ask now by what Motives GOD makes us sensible of his Churches Authority is to depart visibly from the Question He wants not Motives to fasten his Children to his Church to which he has given so particular and so resplendent Characters This very thing that of all the Societies in the world she is the sole to whom none can shew her beginning or any interruption of her visible and exterior State by any averr'd Fact whilst she shews all other Societies that environ her theirs by Facts which themselves cannot deny this very thing is a sensible Character that gives an inviolable Authority to the true Church GOD wants not Motives to make his Children perceive this so particular Character of his Church But whatever these Motives are not to forestall them here this being no place for it 't is certain that there are some since that in fine we must be able to believe on the Churches word before we have read the holy Scripture and that in the first Instruction we receive without speaking of the Scripture we are taught to say as a fundamental Act of our Faith I believe the Catholick Church Mr. Claude tells us that to authorize the Method by which we pretend to lay the Churches Faith as the Foundation of all the rest the Creed should have begun with saying I believe the Church whereas it is begun with saying I believe in GOD the Father and in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost And he considers not that 't is the Church her self which teaches us the whole Creed that 't is on her word we say I believe in GOD the Father and in JESVS CHRIST his only Son and the rest which we cannot say with a firm Faith unless GOD at the same time puts in our Hearts that the Church which teaches us deceives us not After then we have on her word said I believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and begun our Profession of Faith by the Divine Persons whom their Majesty places above all we add an holy Reflection on the Church which proposes to us this Belief and say I believe the Catholick Church To which we immediatly after joyn all the Graces we receive by her Ministery the Communion of Saints the Remission of Sins the Blessed Resurrection and in fine Everlasting Life The Fifth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's alledging here the Practice of the Greek Church and the like which is only to embroil the matter and not to resolve the Difficulty 'T IS to shew a desire of embroling matters to alledge here with Mr. Claude the Greek Church the Armenian the Egyptian or Aethiopick and that of the Cophti and so many others which brag no less of being the true Church than the Roman does Those say they who are bred up in these Churches revere their Authority every one of these Churches has Followers as zealous as ours True and pure zeal has no sensible Mark every one attributes his as we do to the Grace of the Holy Ghost and resting on the Authority of the Church in which he is says That the Holy Ghost makes use of this Authority to guide him to the Belief of the Scripture and all the Verities of Christianity This is in a manner Mr. Claude's Objection and thus sometimes when Men cannot free themselves they endeavour to cast others into the like Perplexity as theirs But he will gain nothing by this Address for in fine what cause does he pretend to combat for is it for indifferency of Religions Will he say with the wicked that there is not a true Church in which men indeed act by divine Motions And under pretence that the Devil or if he pleases Nature can imitate or to say better counterfeit these Motions will he maintain that they are every where imaginary GOD forbid we will both of us avoid this Rock He will avow then with me that there is a true Church which soever it is where the Holy Ghost acts thô by looking only on the exterior we cannot always so easily discern who those are in whom he dwells Hitherto we are agreed let us see now how far we can go together We agree that there is one true Church in which the Holy Ghost acts we agree that he makes use of exterior Means to put the Truth in our Hearts we agree that he makes use of the Church and of the Scripture Our question is to know by which he begins whether by the Scripture or by the Church whether I say he makes us believe the Church by the Scripture or rather makes us believe the Scripture by the Church I say that the Holy Ghost begins by the Church and it must be so since 't is manifestly the Church that puts the Scripture in our hands Nevertheless Mr. Claude leaves me here and begins to walk alone but he falls at the very first step into a Precipice For his Fear of acknowledging an infallible Authority in the true Church and of believing that on her word we may make an Act of divine and super-natural Faith concerning the Scripture obliges him to say that 't is not possible to begin the reading of the Holy Scripture by such an Act of Faith and that every Act of Faith which precedes this Reading is an Act of human Faith See the deporable Condition in which he puts a Christian at his first going to read the Holy Scripture Mr. Claude cannot get forth of this Abyss without returning to the place where he began to leave me and saying afterwards with me that there is a true Church wheresoever she is the veneration of which the Holy Ghost first inspires into true Believers that by this Veneration which he at first puts in their Hearts he fixes them to the Scripture which this Church presents them that this Church requires also of all those she can instruct that they adore upon her word the infallible Truth of this Scripture and acknowledges not for her Children those which have only an human Faith for it But say they the Roman Church is not the sole which attributes to her self this Authority the Greek and other Churches will have one believe them on their word and teach that this is the Means to read the Holy Scripture with the
Submission of a divine Faith And well if it be so it remains only to choose between these Churches But then the Calvinistical Church is gone at the very first brush she degrades her self as I may say from the Title of the Church since she finds not in her self Authority enough to cause all those whom she begins to instruct to make an Act of a Christian and an Act of divine Faith not even on the Truth of the Scripture whence 't is suppos'd she ought to learn all the rest But Mr. Claude asks how one shall choose between these Churches Shall it be by Enthusiasm It would be by Enthusiasm as I have observ'd in the Conference if the true Church had not her particular Characters that distinguish her from others She has without going any farther or searching any deeper her Succession in which none can shew her by any positive Fact Interruption Innovation or Change This is what no false Church can so clearly glory of as the true because by glorying of it she would visibly condemn her self There will be then always in the Instruction which the true Church shall give her Children concerning her Condition something that no other Sect can or dare say 'T is by this we would convince if it were in question the Greeks the Ethiopians the Armenians and other Sects which seem in this respect more deceiving because of the apparence of Succession that they shew which also makes them way to attribute to themselves with a little more ground the Authority of the Church But as for the Calvinian Church there is an end of her because she has not so much as an apparent and tolerable Succession and that she dares not as we have now shewn by Mr. Claude's acknowledgment attribute to her self this Authority without which there can neither be any certain Instruction nor any assur'd Foundation of Divine Faith nor in fine any Church 'T would be then in vain for us to lose time here in disputing with the Egyptians and Greeks the Succession they brag of 'T would be no great Labor to shew them the exact Moment of their Innovation The Pretended Reformed know it as well as we and can themselves shew it them when they please So when they pross us to do it 't is not that they think to engage us in a thing impossible or even obscure and difficult but 't is in a word that in so bad a cause there is always something got by digressing and making the consequence of an Argument be lost Thus I had reason to tell Mademoiselle de Duras in one of the Instructions of this Book that if any one disgusted with the Calvinistical Church was tempted to embrace the Religion of the Cophti or of the Greeks 't would be then time to shew them in these Churches that inevitable Moment of their Novelty which they can no more deâ—y than can the other Sects but since the Calvinists with whom we have to do agree it and that none thinks of leaving them but to come to us when we oblige any one to leave them by shewing from their Ministers own Confession the enormous Absurdities of their Doctrin the work is perfected and all the rest on that occasion would be to no purpose And to the end the Method of the Conference and the State of the Question which is there treated may be throughly understood it did not aim directly to establish the Roman Church but only to shew that there is some-where or other a true Church to which we must submit without examining and besides that this cannot be the Calvinistical Church since she will her self have one examin after her which makes her acknowledge the Absurdities we have remark't and by this acknowledgment lose the Title of the Church This done there 's no more question to preach the Roman Church that is that Body of the Church of which Rome is the Head since to him that will choose between two Churches the excluding of the one is the establishing of the other without any need of disputing farther for this purpose Besides that the Roman Church so evidently beare these Characters of the true Church that there is scarce any man of good Sense even amongst our Reformed but agrees that if there be in the world an Authority to which we must submit 't is that of this Church But however when one sees the Absurdities one is forc'd to own in Calvinism for want of having acknowledg'd in the Churches Authority the true Principles of Christian Instruction one soon retires from a Church whose Method and Instruction is so manifestly defective and one is sufficiently sollicited by the Remains of Christianity which one feels within himself to return to the Church from whence he departed The Sixth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's reducing as much as he can this Dispute to the Instruction of Children VVE see in Mr. Claude's Discourses that press'd by this want of Authority which ruins all Instruction in his Church he affects to reduce our Dispute to the Instruction of Children and thinks he has found an Advantage by making this Instruction depend on Parents and Nurses who are better known at that Age than the Church and her Ministers By this means he thinks to conceal from us the Churches Authority in the first Exercises and first Acts of Faith we make before we have read the Holy Scripture But he ought first to consider that the Argument I made him regarded not only Children Children are not the only Christians that have not read the Scripture Mr. Claude is not ignorant that there were in the beginning of Christianity not only particular men but also whole Nation which according to the Report of St. Irenaeus had not the Holy Scripture and without reading it ceas'd not to be true Christians The Debate then between us is in general concerning all those that have not read the Holy Scripture of what Age soever they may be and what way soever they may have hapned not to have read it For 't is of those and if they will 't is of those whom St. Irenaeus mentions or of their like that I enquire concerning the Faith with which they believe the Scripture and prepare to read it as being inspir'd by GOD. If they have but an human Faith as Mr. Claude says they are not Christians and if they have a Divine Faith as must be acknowledg'd unless we will fall into an horrible Absurdity 't is then true that Divine Faith without ones having read the Scripture immediatly follows the Churches Doctrin and establishes her infallible Authority 'T is on this Authority that every Christian who takes the Scripture in hand begins by believing with a firm Faith that all he is going to read is Divine and he stays not his believing the truth of this Scripture till he has read it all he believes the first Chapter before he has read the second and he believes all before he has read the first Letter or so much
of the Divinity through Atheism since Examination and Doubt is a Spice of it But 't is not so GOD has plac'd his Mark in the World which is the Work of his Hands and by this divine Mark he imprints in Souls before all Doubts the Sentiment of his Divinity In like manner he has plac'd his Mark in his Church the most perfect work of his Wisdom By this Mark the Holy Ghost makes the true Church known to the Children of GOD and this so particular Character which distinguishes her from all other Assemblies gives her so great an Authority that without hesitating we admit before all Opinions not only the Holy Scripture but also all her sound Doctrin Thus are the Children of the true Church instructed those that are educated in a strange Church as soon as they perceive her waver in any part whatever of her Instruction ought to stretch forth their Arms to the Church which has reason never to waver because she has never vary'd nor waver'd and they find they ought to return into it because none should ever have gone out of it The Seventh REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's saying in his Relation that I appear'd embarrass'd in this part of the Dispute IT may now be judg'd whether I ought to be perplext about the Promise I made Mademoiselle de Duras to make Mr. Claude acknowledg a Moment in which by the Principles of his Religion a Christian had but an human Faith concerning the Truth of the Scripture How could I be embarrass'd about a thing which Mr. Claude acknowledg'd in the Conference and which he acknowledges still in his Relation thô he has weaken'd both my Proof and his own Confession 'T is true he cannot let go the Word Doubt but I pretended not to make his Tongue form this Syllable the Equivalent is sufficient for me 'T is an Excess great enough to reduce the Christian who is going to read the Holy Scripture to be uncapable of a Divine Faith To content ones self in this Condition with an human Faith is always too evidently to renounce Christianity I have then manifestly what I desir'd from Mr. Claude's Acknowledgment And if he says That the Faith he here speaks of excludes Doubt as resembling that which makes us believe there is a City call'd Constantinople or that there was heretofore a King nam'd Alexander the Great thô we know it but by Men This indeed is not enough for a Christian who ought to act by a Divine Faith but 't is still enough to conâ—ound Mr. Claude 〈◊〉 according to this Answer the Church would always have an Authority equal to that which all Mankind as I may say has when they unanimously depose concerning a sensible Fact Thus in what manner soever Mr. Claude explains to us 〈…〉 Faith the Victory of the Truth I asserted will remain secur'd by his Confession Since if he says his human Faith excludes Doubt he supposes in it an infallible Truth and if he say it leaves a Doubt he will in fine have pronounc'd these fatal Syllables he so much shun'd In a Cause so assur'd if I trembled for any thing but the Danger of those into whose Hearts I fear'd that either by reason of my own Weakness or their Prepossession I could not make the Truth sufficiently enter I ill understood the Truth I defended In the mean time because I said in the Recital of the Conference That at Mr. Claude's objecting to me the Greek Church and others I trembled thrô the Apprehension lest an Objection propos'd with â—o much Address and Eloquence might put a Soul in Peril Mr. Claude took this moment to make me appear vanquish'd Here says he it may with Truth be said That Monsr de Condom ' s Mind was seen not to be in its usual State and that the Liberty which is so natural to him sensibly decreas'd I may truly say in my turn That my Trembling whence this Advantage is drawn was interior and that I can scarce believe Mr. Claude could have perceiv'd it had I not my self sincerely related it in my Recital But what matter is it what was either the Effect or Cause of my Fear They shall say if they please That being put to a stand by Mr. Claude's Objection I would cover the Disorder into which I visibly fell by the Trembling I fain I had for the Salvation of a Soul that expected its Instruction from my Assistance I will own it if they please or rather not to ly I will let it pass without Opposition Let me have trembled before Mr. Claude provided that even in Trembling I spake the Truth I spake it They need only see what were my Answers and whether I drew not from Mr. Claude's Mouth the Acknowledgment I pretended After this the more I shall have trembled and the weaker I shall have been the more certain 't will be That 't was the Truth which kept me up The Eighth REFLECTION On another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference where is shewn the manner how all false Churches establisht themselves THere is a Part of the Conference which Mr. Claude passes over in four Words 'T is that where I shew him the horrible State of his Church which set it self up after the Example of all false Churches by separating from all the Christian Churches that were in the World and without finding any Church which thought as she did at the time of her Establishment So that she was not joyn'd by any Continuity either to the time that went before or to any Church which appear'd then in the World This Fact pass'd for evident and how short soever Mr. Claude has been in the Recital of this Part he says enough to shew That in acknowledging this important Fact he has only endeavour'd to cover the Shame of such a Condition by the Example of the Apostles when they separated from the Synagogue I will not repeat what I said on this Subject You have seen it in the Conference and Mr. Claude who relates but one Word of it does not oblige me to any new Exaplanation I shall only say That he gives a very false Idea of this part of the Dispute The Company says he was risen and the Conversation which continu'd yet some time became much more confus'd and we discours'd of divers things I know not why Mr. Claude will have our Conversation to have been confus'd it was not so in any part and 't was less so if it were possible in this than in the rest 'T is true we were risen and Part of the Company was withdrawn but Mr. Claude and I stood firm before each other Mademoisello de Duras seem'd to have redoubled her Attention and after so many Principles declar'd the Dispute became more quick and more concluding than ever If we spake of divers Matters it was not ramblingly and all tended to the same End It may be seen by reading it and if Credit will not be given to me in this behalf when
whether dispers'd or re-united whether always subsisting or sometimes wholly extinct shall clearly find according to his Principles without any need of the Ministery all necessary Aliments For also of what use is a Ministery to them in which Error prevail And would not the Scripture alone be more commodious and more instructive to them This is what the 〈◊〉 should say to avoid the Inconveniences into which we cast them But Mr. Claude neither durst nor ever will dare to do it because he would find in it Inconveniences yet more insupportable and more visible 'T is in a word because he sound that by pushing the Authority and sufficiency as I may say of the Scripture independently of all Ecclesiastical Ministery they must at last destroy the Scripture it self In effect Rom. 1. ◠10. he found in the Scripture that the Scripture ought not to be Vid. Sup. p. 50. as the Philosophy of 〈◊〉 the Rule of 〈◊〉 Republick in Idea but of a People always subsisting which this Scripture calls the Church He has found that this People ought to be always visible on the earth since they ought not only to believe with the Heart but also to confes◠with the Mouth and to use his Terms make Profession of the Christian Truth He has found that the Scripture was entrusted in the hands of such a People to be their unchangeable Rule that there should be always Interpreters establisht by GOD the Author of this Scripture as well as the Founder of this People and that so the Ministery destin'd by GOD to this Interpretation was as eternal as the Church it self If he writ these great Words GOD always preserves in the publick Ministery all that is necessary for the guiding true Believers to Salvation Man Ans 4. q. he cannot found this Assurance on any human Industry Let GOD leave the Ecclesiastical Ministery to it self it must fall If then it be certain that GOD will always keep there all that is necessary to Salvation GOD himself must have promis'd it and the Eternity of the Ministery cannot be founded but on this Promise Mr. Claude also finds it in those Words Thou art Peter Matt. xvi v. 18. and the rest 'T is thence he concludes with us that JESUS CHRIST in speaking to a Church that confesses and confesses without difficulty by her principal Ministers since 't is by St. Peter in the Name of the Apostles to a Church joyn'd to an exterior Ministery and using the Power of the Keys has promis'd her that Hell should not prevail against her consequently supported by this Ministery and therefore he affirms that GOD preserves always in the publick Ministery all that is necessary to the Salvation of GODs Children Another Promise of JESUS CHRIST's Matt. xxviii v. 19 20. directed to those that baptize and those that teach and concluded by these powerful Words And lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World makes Mr. Claude as well as us say that JESUS CHRIST promises the Church to be with her Ibid. to baptize with her and to teach with her without interruption even to the end of the World Thus according to this Minister this Promise regards the Church as joyn'd to the Ecclesiastical Ministery which makes him also conclude that JESUS CHRIST promises the Corruption shall never be such in the Ministery but that there shall still be enough to entertain the true Faith of his Elect even to the end of the World In fine Eph. iv Man Ans Ibid. a third Passage to wit that of St. Paul to the Ephefians makes him conclude with us that the Ministery shall last even to the end of the World and continue in a degree and in an Estate sufficient to edify the Body of CHRIST and bring all the Elect to the Perfection of which St. Paul speaks GOD then must concern himself with it without whose Assistances continually present neither such a Stability nor such an Integrity can be expected in the Ministery After he had thus begun to believe he should have finish◠the Work and given Glory to GOD even to the end Mr. Claude was not far from the Kingdom of GOD when he said that GOD would render himself superior enough over human Infirmity to preserve always manger the Efforts of Hell a Church which should confess the Truth and an exterior Ministery which should furnish true Believers with the Aliments necessary to Salvation He ought then to proceed to the end and believe that the same Hand which would hinder Hell from prevailing so far against the Ministery as to deprive it of these necessary Aliments would hinder it also from prevailing so far as to make any Error have dominion in it and that so much the rather as what he believ'd manifestly comprehends what is left to believe For if he believ'd on the Faith of the Divine Promise that there should be always a Church with which JESUS CHRIST would not cease to teach that is without difficulty that he would not cease to teach with the Doctors of this Church he ought by the same means to believe that he would teach there all Truth JESVS CHRIST not being come Joh. xvi v. 13. nor having sent his Holy Spirit to his Apostles to teach them some Truths but to teach them all Truth as himself declares in his Gospel Nor would it be to any purpose to say that Mr. Claude Promises in the Ministery only sufficient Aliments which can comprehend no more than the Fundamentals of the Faith as our Reformed find them amongst the Lutherans For JESVS CHRISTs Doctrin containing nothing but what is profitable Is 48. v. 17. agreeably to this Word I am the Lord which teacheth thee profitable things if we find not in the Ministery JESVS CHRISTs Doctrin entire we shall never find that Degree requir'd by Mr. Claude nor that Estate sufficient to bring all the Elect to the Perfection of which St. Paul speaks 'T would be then something to believe that by the Promise GOD would always keep without interruption in the Ministery all essential Truths for 't would be to acknowledge in the Church with which JESUS CHRIST teaches a beginning of infallible Authority by acknowledging this Authority at least in respect of the first Truths of Christianity But to finish the Work and not to believe by halves we must also believe that JESUS CHRIST in teaching teaches all and confess in his Church an absolute Infallibility Thus we must not say with the Ministers and their incredulous Flock This Ecclesiastical Ministery is of men subject to fall one may doubt after them for this would be to yield to the Temptation and no longer to believe the Promise We must say 't is of men with whom JESUS CHRIST promises to be and teach always then manger human weakness and all the Endeavours of Hell Rom. iv v. 18. against hope we believe in hope that we shall find eternally in their common
Revelation the Church which is but the bare Interpreter No Sir reply'd I I equal not the Church to St. Paul but I say that to pretend one ought to be Believ'd without examining when one thinks to act only as an Instrument of which the Holy Ghost makes use is not to have Dominion over the Conscience as the Example of St. Paul demonstrates Besides I pretend not to equal the Churches Authority to the Apostolical The Apostles were Authors of the Revelation as you have very well said that is they first receiv'd the Truths which it pleas'd GOD to reveal The Church is only the Interpreter and Depositary But saving this essential Difference between the Apostles and the Church I say That the Church is as much inspir'd to Interpret as the Apostles were to Establish and that holding the Grace of Interpretation from the same Spirit which gave the first Revelation to the Apostles she no more exercises Dominion over the Consciences in Interpreting than the Apostles did in Establishing But that both the one and the other cause the Holy Ghost to have Dominion over them according to the Measure which is given to every one It must be prov'd said Mr. Claude that the Church has receiv'd a like Grace There 's no need of proving answer'd I immediately 't is sufficient to shew that the Passage you alledge is not concluding To this there was nothing said But if I remember well Mr. Claude exaggerated a little how strange it was that we would oblige Men to believe the Church like GOD himself upon her bare Word without making use for the Interpretation of Scripture of the Reason GOD has given us that those of Beraea did not so and that the Apostle according to our Opinion was much to blame for letting them examin his Preachings I answer'd That there was a very great Difference between the Faithful already Children of the Church and subjected to her Authority and those that still doubted whether they should enter into her Bosom That those of Beraea were in this last Condition and the Apostle would not by any means propose to 'em the Churches Authority of which they doubted But that the Faithful were not instructed in the same manner after the Councel of Jerusalem There the Apostles decided by Authority of the Holy Ghost Act. XV. v. 28. Act. XVI v. 4. It has seemed good say they to the Holy Ghost and to us What do Paul and Silas Carriers of the Councels Letter after this They went through the Cities as 't is in the Acts What to cause the Counceâ— of Jerusalem's Decree to be there examin'd 'T would have been to examin after the Holy Ghost himself What then They went through the Cities delivering them the Decrees for to keep that were ordained of the Apostles and Elders which were at Jerusalem See the Order The Examen in the Councel the Obedience without examining after the Decision the Examen in those of Beraea that is in those who not being in the Church have yet no Authority to regulate them Submission without examining in those who being already in the Church are only to hear her Decrees 'T is their Happiness to be in a Body which guided by the Holy Ghost can never be deceiv'd and by that means be deliver'd from the Danger of an Examen the end of which would perhaps be Error The Conference had already lasted four Hours I already had from Mr. Claude's Acknowledgment one of the Propositions I would make him confess to wit That every particular Person ought to believe he may understand the Holy Scripture better than the Universal Councels and all the rest of the Church He must yet own the other Proposition no less Important and see how GOD brought him to it As he had spoken much of this Dominion of the Church over Consciences repeating three or four times That we gave her the Respect which was due to none but GOD alone when we believ'd her without Examining I told him he need not make so strange of a thing which they did as well as we and upon that I askt him Whether a Believer at his first Receiving the Holy Scripture from the Church were oblig'd first to doubt and after to examin whether the Book she put into his Hand were truly inspir'd by GOD or no. If this Believer examins and doubts he renounces the Faith and begins the reading of the Gospel by an Act of Infidelity and if he doubts not he then receives without examining the Authority of the Church which presents him the Gospel To this see Mr. Claude's Answer The Believer you suppose who has not read the Holy Scripture and into whose Hands 't is put to speak properly doubts not he is ignorant He knows not what this Scripture is which he is told is inspir'd by GOD. He has heard his Father and those who instructed him say That 't was divinely inspir'd He yet knows no other Authority but theirs and as for what concerns the Scripture he knows not what it is Thus he cannot be said to be Unbelieving or Incredulous And pray Sir said he let me make you the same Argument upon the Church as you make me upon the Scripture The Believer to whom the Churches Authority is propos'd either believes it without examining or doubts If he doubts he is an Infidel If he doubts not by what Authority is he assur'd Is the Churches Authority a thing evident of it self and must be not find it by some Examen This is your Difficulty which you have to solve as well as I either let us quit 'em both or resolve 'em both together I declare to you that I will answer for the Scripture what you shall answer me for the Church I understand you answer'd I but before I explain to you how the Christian believes the Church let us first settle the Matter that is in question Is it not evident Sir amongst you as well as amongst us That when the Holy Scripture is shewn to Children educated in the Church 't is shewn them as a Book inspir'd by GOD and I ask whether they cannot when they are caus'd to read something in it make this Act of Faith I certainly believe that what I am going to read is GODs Word Mr. Claude answer'd here That those of whom I spake to him had yet no divine Faith concerning the Authority of the Scripture but a bare human Perswasion grounded on the Deference they had for their Parents and that they were but Catechumens Catechumens Sir said I. You must not if you please speak so They are Christians they are baptiz'd they have in them the Holy Ghost and Faith infus'd they are in the Covenant according to you they have receiv'd Baptism as a Seal of the Covenant to which they are admitted and as the Covenant is seal'd in them by the exterior Seal of Baptism the Holy Ghost seals it interiorly in their Hearts Know your own Doctrin Upon this said Mr. Claude you know
Memory Let us come to the time when the Christian has the use of Reason and when he can make an Act of Faith By what shall he begin but by what he began to be instructed He believes then the Universal Church before he believes the Scripture In effect make I do not say a Child but any Man whosoever read the Canticle of Canticles in which there is not the least mention of GOD either good or bad In good earnest He believes this Book inspir'd by GOD only because of the Tradition First of the Synagogue and Secondly of the Christian Church that is in one word through the Authority of the Universal Church But let us keep to our Point Let us consider the Christian in the Moment when the Holy Scripture is propos'd to him as the Word of GOD. 'T is the Holy Ghost which makes him believe it we are agreed on that Point But we dispute about the exterior Means of which the Holy Ghost makes use I say That 't is the Church since 't is she in effect which proposes to him the Holy Scripture since he believ'd the Church before he heard of the Scripture since at his opening the Scripture he is in Condition to say I believe this Scripture as I believe that GOD is You say That he cannot make this Act of Faith He is then no Believer and his Baptism is of no use to him We must instruct him as an Infidel saying to him Here is the Scripture which I believe inspir'd by GOD read it Child examin it see whether it be the very Truth or a Fable The Church believes it inspir'd by GOD but the Church may be deceiv'd and thou art not in condition to make with her this Act of Faith As I believe that GOD is so I believe that he himself inspir'd this Scripture If this manner of Instructing strikes an Horror into Christians and leads manifestly to Impiety the Christian must be able at first to make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture propos'd to him by the Church he must consequently believe That the Church is not deceiv'd in giving him this Scripture A◠he receives from her the Scripture he receives from her the Interpretation of it and she no more exercises Dominion over the Consciences in obliging her Children to believe her Interpretations without examining than she does in obliging us to believe without examining the Scripture it self By this Argument Sir reply'd Mr. Claude you would make every one conclude in Favor of his Church The Greeks the Armenians the Ethiopians we our selves whom you believe to be in error we are nevertheless Baptiz'd we have by Baptism both the Holy Ghost and this Faith infus'd of which you have been speaking Every one of us has receiv'd the Holy Scripture from the Church in which he was baptiz'd every one believes his to be the true Church declar'd in the Creed and at the first he even knows not any other Now if as we have receiv'd without examining the Holy Scripture from the Hand of that Church in which we are we must also as you say receive blindfold all its Interpretations 't is an Argument to conclude That every one ought to continue as he is and that every Religion is good This was in truth the strongest Objection that could be made and thô the Solution of this Doubt appear'd clear to me I was in pain how I might render it clear to those who heard me I spake with trembling seeing it concern'd the Salvation of a Soul and I besought GOD who made me see the Truth so clearly That he would give me Words to express it fully and plainly For I had to do with a Man who heard patiently spake clearly and strongly and in fine pusht the Difficulties to the utmost points I told him I must first distinguish their Case from that of the Greeks Armenians and others he had nam'd who indeed err in taking a false Church for the true but believe at least as indubitable That the true Church wheresoever she is must be believ'd and that she never deceives her Children You are said I to him much farther off for I can lay to your Charge That you do not only like the Greeks and Ethiopians take a false Church for a true but what is undeniable and what you your self confess That you will not have us even believe the true After this Distinction which seem'd necessary to me let us come to your Difficulty Let us distinguish in the Belief of the Greeks and other false Churches what there is of Truth what they have in common with the true Universal Church in a word what comes from GOD from that which comes from human Prejudice GOD by his Holy Spirit puts in the Heart of those who are baptiz'd in these Churches That there is a GOD and a JESUS CHRIST and an Holy Ghost Hitherto there is no Error all this is from GOD Is it not true He agreed it They believe also That there is an Universal Church Are they not right in this and is it not a Truth reveal'd by GOD that there is one indeed I expected his Acknowledgment and after he had given it I added That the Greeks and Ethiopians were dispos'd to believe without examining whatever the true Church propos'd to ' em This is what you approve not Sir in this you are separated from all other Christians who unanimously believe That there is a true Church which never deceives her Children I who believe this with them reckon this Belief amongst the things which come from GOD But see where the human Prejudices begin This Baptiz'd being seduc'd by his Parents and Pastors believes the Church in which he is to be the true and attributes in particular to this false Church all that GOD makes him believe in general of the true 'T is not the Holy Ghost that puts this in his Heart Is it not true 'T is without doubt true In this place he begins to believe amiss Here Error begins here the Divine Faith infus'd by the Holy Ghost begins to be lost Happy are those in whom the human Prejudices are joyn'd with the true Belief which the Holy Ghost puts in their Heart They are exempt from a great Temptation and the terrible Pain there is to distinguish that which is from GOD in the Faith of their Church from that which is from Men. But whatever Difficulty Men have to distinguish these things GOD knows them and distinguishes them and there will be an eternal Difference between that which his Holy Spirit puts in the Heart of the Baptiz'd when he interiorly disposes them to believe the true Church and that which human Prejudices have added to it by fixing their Spirit to a false one How these Baptiz'd may afterwards disentangle these things and by what means they may get out of the Prepossession that has made them confound the Idea of the false Church in which they are with the Faith of the true Church
which the Holy Ghost has put in their Hearts with the Creed is not now in debate and 't is sufficient that we have seen in all the Baptiz'd a Belief of the Church which comes to them from GOD distinguisht from the Thought which comes to them from Men. This being so I affirm That to this Belief of the Church which the Holy Ghost puts in our Hearts with the Creed is fixt a firm Faith That we must believe this Church as certainly as the Holy Ghost to whom the Creed it self immediately joins her and that this Faith in the Church is the Cause the Believer never doubts of the Scripture I stopt a moment to ask whether I were understood Mr. Claude answer'd That he understood me perfectly And if it be so said I to him you ought to see the Inconvenience into which your Belief casts you and you ought also to see That I am not in the same by mine You not only say That we must not believe a false Church but that we must not even believe the true one without examining what she says and in this you speak against all other Christians Mademoiselle de Duras interpos'd saying in this place This is what must be answer'd by Ay or No. I said it indeed answer'd Mr. Claude and I did not stick to say it at first So much the better reply'd I. We shall soon see which of us two has Reason and in the clear State things have been put in by our reciprocal Discourses the Truth will soon appear on one side or other From the time you lay it down for certain That the Church even the true one may deceive us the Faithful cannot believe on the Churches sole Faith That the Scripture is the Word of GOD. He may believe it with an human Faith answer'd Mr. Claude but not with a divine Faith But human Faith reply'd I is always defective and doubting He doubts then whether the Scripture be inspir'd by GOD or no. Mr. Claude here pray'd me to remember what he had already said That he was not in Doubt but in Ignorance As a Man said he not skill'd in Diamonds being shewn one and askt whether he believes it to be good or bad knows nothing of it neither is he in Doubt but in Ignorance In like manner when a Master teaches some Opinion in Philosophy the Scholar who understands not yet what he means has no formal Doubt but is in a bare Ignorance So is it with those to whom the Holy Scripture is the first time given And I said I affirm That he doubts and that he who is not skill'd in Diamonds doubts whether that which is presented to him be good or bad and that the Scholar with Reason doubts of all his Master in Philosophy tells him till he sees it clear because he believes not his Master Infallible and by the same Reason he who believes not the Church Infallible doubts of the Truth of GODs Word which she proposes to him This is call'd Ignorance and not Doubt still said Mr. Claude And I made this Argument To doubt is not to know whether a thing be or not The Christian of whom we speak knows not whether the Scripture be true or no He is then in Doubt Tell me what is it to doubt but not to know whether a thing be or no To this there was no Answer but that this Christian did not in any manner doubt of the Scripture but was only ignorant of it But said I he is not like an Infidel who perhaps never heard any mention of it He knows That the Gospel of St. Matthew and St. Paul's Epistles are read in the Church as GODs Word and that none of the Faithful doubt it Can he believe with them as certainly as he believes GOD is That this Word is inspir'd by GOD You have said That he cannot make this Act of Faith He that cannot make an Act of Faith on an Article propos'd to him makes at least as I may so say an Act of Doubt Mr. Claude still answer'd That he was in a pure Ignorance And well let us leave contesting about Words He does not Doubt if you please but he knows not whether this Scripture be a Truth or a Fable he knows not whether the Gospel be an History inspir'd by GOD or a Tale invented by Men. He cannot then make an Act of Divine Faith upon this Point nor say I believe as GOD is that the Gospel is also from GOD. Do you not acknowledg That he cannot make this Act and that he has nothing but an human Faith He again freely confess'd That he knew nothing else Well Sir 't is enough In fine then there is a Point of Time when every Baptiz'd Christian knows not whether the Gospel be not a Fable This is given him to examin See to what we must come when we are set to examin after the Church We might discourse without end But we have said all that can be said on both sides and we should do nothing but begin again 'T is for every one to examin in his Conscience how he can maintain That a Baptiz'd Christian ought to have been a Moment without knowing whether the Gospel be a Truth or a Fable and that amongst other Questions which one may make in ones Life this also must be given him to examin It appear'd to me by the Countenance of Mademoiselle de Dwas that she understood 〈◊〉 I notwithstanding expected a little And Mr. Claude rose up Mademoiselle de Duras rose with us and coming to us said I could wish That before you broke up something might be said concerning the Separation The thing is done answer'd I. As soon as 't is certain That one cannot examin after the Church without falling into an insupportable Pride noâ— without doubting of the Gospel there is nothing more to be 〈◊〉 Every one need only consider whether he will doubt one Moment of the Gospel and also whether he finds himself capable to understand the Scripture better than all the Synods in the World and than all the rest of the Universal Church But since Mademoiselle desires some particular Instruction concerning the Separation I beseech you Sir give me a Moment more I shall propose to you essential Facts on which â—f I be not deceiv'd you must soon agree I ask you Sir Whether the Arians separated from the Church and whether their Sect when it appear'd was not new They did not said he separate from the Church they corrupted it He set himself to represent with a great deal of Exaggeration â—ow they drew with them the whole Church 'T is not so Sir said I You know That St. Athanasius St. Basil St. Gregory Nazianzen and many other Holy Bishops held for the Truth and that a great Body of People follow'd them You know That all the West and Rome it self notwithstanding the Fall of Liberius was Orthodox But let us leave all this said I to him in what Number soever they separated
they will say nothing new or unusual in their Religion Calvin said it in formal terms when speaking in general of all the Councils of the precedent Ages 4. Instit c. 9. he writ these words I pretend not in this place that all the Councils must be condemn'd and all their Decrees vacated Nevertheless proceeded he you will object to me that I so order them as to permit every one indifferently to receive or reject what the Councils should have establisht by no means that 's none of my Intent You would say â—he were very far from it The Majesty of Councils and the Authority of so great a Name moves him at first but the Consequence of his Doctrin makes him soon forget what he seem'd willing to say to their advantage For see how he concludes When says he the Authority of a Council is alledg'd I desire first it be consider'd in what time and for what cause it was assembled and what Persons assisted at it afterwards that the principal Point be examin'd according to the Rule of the Scripture so that the Councils Definition have its weight and be as a Prejudice but that it hinder not the Examination This is what all this careful Enquiry after Time Matter and Persons in fine terminates in to wit That at what Time soever a Council is held what Matter soever is there treated and or what Persons soever 't is compos'd every one indifferently for that was the Question should examin the principal Point by GODs Word and believe he can understand that Divine Word better than all the Councils See how far these Gentlemen pâ—sh the Examen They drive it yet much farther since they will have one examin after the Apostles This is not a Consequence which I draw from their Doctrin 'T is their own very Proposition and Doctrin in formal Terms and particularly that of M r. Claude For upon what I saith in the Exposition Exp. Arâ— 19. that after the Council of Jerusalem Act. XV. v. 18. and the Decision of the Apostles where they said It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us nowe had any thing more to examin and that in effect Paâ—l and Barnabas with Silas as 't is written in the Acts Act. XVI v. 4. went through the Churches teaching them not to examin what the Apostles had done but to keep the Decrees they had ordain'd Because I concluded thence That they gave the Form to all following Ages and taught us how in all times the Faithful ought to submit to the Churches Decisions without examining after several Answers but all frivolous they were fain at last to answer me clearly That one ought yet to examin after the Council of the Apostles 'T is the 〈◊〉 't is the first that answer'd the Exposition who writ in these terms We do not see that the Apostles publisht their Decision with an absolute Order it should ' be obey'd but they sent Paul Barnabas and Silaâ— for to instruct the Faithful to keep this Ordinance that is evidently to perswade them the Motives and Grounds of it which says not that they were forbid to examâ—â— This is what the Anonymus says The Place is remarkable you will find it in the Nineteenth Article of the first Answer in the fourth and last Observation he makes on the Council of the Apostles Page the 328 th This is not a particular Sentiment of this Authors since there is plac'd in the Front of his Book the Approbation of four Ministers of Charenton of which Mr. Claude is one to the end he may not say I charge him with a strange Doctrin in imputing to him that of this Anoâ—â—mus Thus 't is not the unbelieving Jews and Gentiles 't is the Faithful the Christian Churches that ought to examin after the Apostles and after the Apostles assembled and after they have pronounc'd It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us And this prodigious Doctrin is taught in a Church which vauâ—â—â— of hearing nothing but the pure Words of the Apostles See whither the Ministers and the Pretended Reformed and particularly Mr. Claude are forc'd by their Belief to carry the necessity of the Examen There was nothing left but to say we must yet examin after JESVS CHRIST and that with all his Miracles and all the Authority given him by his Father he had not enough to oblige men to follow him on his Word and without examining Mr. Claude said it in our Conference and says it again in his Relation I desire the prudent Reader to believe that in a Matter of this importance I will neither impose upon him nor exaggerate Let him follow me only with attention and he shall see the Truth plainly appear You have seen how I objected in the Conference That unless there were acknowledg'd a living and speaking Authority to which every particular Person is oblig'd to submit without examining private Persons would be brought to the Presumption of believing they could understand the Holy Scripture better than all the Councils together and than all the rest of the Church To prove that in this there was not any thing so presumptuous or absurd Mr. Claude answer'd me that in the time when JESUS CHRIST was upon the Earth the Case had hapned when a private Person ought to raise his own Judgment above that of the Synagogue assembled which condemn'd JESUS CHRIST That this was so far from being a Sentiment of Pride that 't was the Act of a perfect Faith This Answer I confess struck an Horror in me For to make it good one must say That in the time when the Synagogue judg'd JESUS CHRIST and he himself was on the Earth there was not upon Earth any living and speaking Authority to which Men were oblig'd to submit without examining So that one ought to examin after JESUS CHRIST it not being permitted to believe him on his Word I made this Answer to Mr. Claude and shew'd him That they were then so far from a necessity of every ones determining himself by a particular Examen and setting himself above every living and speaking Authority that there was at that time one the greatest which ever was or could be to wit That of JESUS CHRIST and of the Truth it self to whom the Father publickly bare Witness by a Voice from Heaven by the greatest and most visible Miracles that were ever wrought and in fine by the most resplendent as well as the most certain Means the Divine Omnipotence could make use of If I observe in the Conference there was no Answer to this Argument 't is very apparent that in effect there ought to be none Mr. Claude nevertheless in his Relation says he answer'd me That JESUS CHRISTs Miracles made one of the Matters in Question That there were false Miracles which Moses in Deuteronomy advis'd the Israelites to take heed of That the Synagogue had judg'd JESUS CHRISTs Miracles to be done in the Name of Beelzeâ—ub That in fine an Authority
not She did not entirely lose her Visibility or her Ministery GOD forbid See how he cries out against this Abomination to say that the Ministery can be lost in the Church There is never then any Necessity of an extraordinary Vocation in the Ministers since to transmit the Ministery after the ordinary manner 't is not requisite for the Ministery to be pure 't is sufficient that it is And thô for the transmitting of it there should be requir'd as Mr. Claude speaks not only Ministers of good Doctrin but also of good Life and good Example 't is as sure that there will be always such in the Society of GOD's People as 't is that there will be always true Believers since that all the Ministery as well as the People must be there mixt of Good and Bad till the final Separation at the last Judgment Thus the extraordinary Vocation is on all sides excluded from JESVS CHRISTs Church and can be only a weak Refuge for a deplor'd Cause And to see what an Overthrow to JESVS CHRISTs Order Mr. Claude here introduces we need only consider the Promises of JESVS CHRIST and see in what it has pleas'd him principally to establish the Strength of his Church She is strong she is invincible because JESUS CHRIST has said Mat. xvi v. 18. that Hell should not prevail against her But he did not say that Hell should not prevail against her till after he had said Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church adding presently after I will give unto thee the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven 'T is then in the Ministery confessing and declaring JESUS CHRIST and using the Authority of the Keys that JESUS CHRIST has principally establisht the Strength of his Church And to whom did he say I am with you even unto the end of the world Matt. xxviii v. 20. but to those to whom he said â—â—ach and baptize All the Church is comprehended in this Promise who knows it not But JESUS CHRIST would shew the Truth of this Doctrin Ep. 69. ad Flor. Pap. so well explicated by St. Cyprian The Church forsakes not JESUS CHRIST and this is the Church the People united with their Bishop and the Flock joyn'd to their Pastor where 't is clear that we must understand as he says elsewhere Ep. 45. ad Corin. 4. Tr. de vnit Ecc. c. this Pastor united with all his Collegues and with the whole Unity of the Episcopacy so often establisht in his Writings 'T is then with reason that JESUS CHRIST would shew the Succession of his Church by that of the Ministery and 't is manifestly seen that 't is to those who teach he would say I am always with you And what is here more admirable is that these Promises are so evident that Mr. Claude against the Prepossessions of his Religion was forc't to acknowledg them such as I have now explicated them For we have heard him tell us that 't is in effect of a confessing Church of a Church which publishes the Faith of a Church which uses the Ministery that JESUS CHRIST has pronounc'd that Hell should not prevail against her V. sup xi Ref. p. 99. seq And because JESUS CHRIST after he had said Teach and baptize adds I am with you Mr. Claude concludes as we do that JESUS CHRIST in effect designs a Church that he affirms he will be with her baptize with her and teach with her even unto the end of the world 'T is then the Succession and Perpetuity of the Ministery which is principally comprehended in this Promise 't is principally in this that JESUS CHRIST establishes the Strength and eternal Duration of his Church In the mean time against all this Order we are shewn the Ministery so weak and so forsaken by JESUS CHRIST that it falls all together in one moment and on the contrary particular Believers so strong that they alone establish all the Ministery extraordinarily rais'd without having regard to the Succession or Authority of all the precedent Administration Who does not then see that all is overturn'd in the new Reformation and that to say with them that GOD would preserve true Believers in his Church to depose by their means all the Pastors and afterward set up others extraordinarily in their place whilst he would not preserve good Pastors to transmit the Ministery by the common ways establisht in his word and always observ'd in his Church is to say that he would set up a Church in a manner contrary to that he has reveal'd and has always caus'd to be follow'd by his Church Or rather 't is to say that he would have this Church form'd after a manner so new amongst Chriâ—â—â—ans bear in its Original without ever being able to efface it the manifest Character of its Falsity But let us come to these true Believers of whom Mr. Claude brags to us I am not contented to dispute with them the Power he has given them to depose all their Pastors and make others I say that these true Believers never were There must notwithstanding according to this Minister have been true Believers even in the Bosom of the Roman Church for since according to his Doctrin there must be acknowledg'd without any Interruption an Ecclesiastical Ministery and an exterior Profession of which might have been said There are the true Believers they were true Believers under that Ministery and in that Profession whence they went forth I ask did they communicate in the Sacrifice where Saints are invocated where their Relicks and Images are honour'd where the Pope is nam'd as the Head of the Orthodox where JESUS CHRIST is ador'd as present in Body and Soul where he is offer'd where the Holy Sacrament is receiv'd under one Kind Not to communicate in this Sacrifice and to refuse the receiving of the Eucharist there were manifestly to separate and they are suppos'd not to have done that yet but if they communicated there continuing true Believers in what an Error are now all our Reformed who believe not themselves to have been true Believers till since they left communicating there Thus these true Believers are People in the Air 1 Kin. xix v. 18. these seven thousand so much bragg'd of in the new Reformation and by Mr. Claude Man Ans 2 part are so far from appearing that they are not in nature since before the Separation there was not any one who communicated not in the Sacrifice and Host which our Reformed look on as Baal before whom one must not bow the Knee They say that these true Believers who by their actual separating compos'd the Reformation were before separated in heart from the publick Idolatry But first this is not sufficient secondly 't is not so This is not sufficient according to Mr. Claude since he will have a Church always visible since he has just now defin'd the Church to be the true Believers who make Profession of the Truth
should then have believ'd our Lord to be the true CHRIST have judg'd better than all the rest of the Synagogue together See then an indubitable Case in which one may without Presumption do what you think so presumptuous In effect proceeded he 't is no Presumption not to give to the Church what belongs only to GOD alone We cannot give him any thing greater than to believe him blind-fold as you would have us believe the Church But you know that St. Paul at least as much inspir'd as the Church forbears not to declare to the Corinthians That he will not have Dominion over their Faith 2. Cor. i. 23. The Church ought yet less to do it than he We must not then believe her simply on her Word we must examin after her and make use of our Reason as those of Beraea did who examin'd the Scriptures Acts xvii v. 11. to see whether the things were there as St. Paul had preacht them When Mr. Claude held his Peace Here said I are many things But we must first take in hand this indisputable Example you have propos'd to us Upon this I remonstrated to him That the Christian Church had great Priviledges above the Synagogue even considering the Synagogue in the time of its greatest Glory But not to mention this 't was a strange thing to compare the Synagogue falling at the very Moment when its Hardning and Reprobation was clearly markt by the Prophets with the Christian Church which was never to fall But in fine Sir reply'd he one might have then made to this private Person the same Argument you make to us To alledge the Prophets was to no purpose for 't was concerning the Application of these Prophecies to JESUS CHRIST that the Synagogue doubted Thus a private Person could no more believe in JESUS CHRIST without believing at the same time that he understood the Scripture better than all the Synagogue and this is the Argument you make to us There were but few People at the Conference and they were all Hugonots except the Mareschalless De Lorge I saw two of these Gentlemen look on one another at this place with Complacence I was toucht that a Reasoning so visibly ill should make such an Impression on these Spirits and I besought GOD to grant me the Grace that I might by something that should be clear destroy the odious Comparison which was made of his always well-beloved Church with the faithless Synagogue at that very Moment he had assign'd for her Divorce You say then Sir said I to Mr. Claude that the Argument I make may authorise the Error of those private Persons who condemn'd JESUS CHRIST on the Faith of the Synagogue and on the contrary condemn those of Presumption who believ'd JESUS CHRIST alone before the whole Synagogue Yes Sir said he the thing is so repeating his Discourse afresh Let us see then said I whether my Argument has this unhappy Consequence It consists Sir in saying That the Churches Authority being deny'd there is no longer any exterior Means which GOD can make use of to dissipate the Doubts of the Ignorant and inspire necessary Humility into the Faithful To the end such an Argument may be made concerning the time when JESUS CHRIST was condemn'd it must be said that there was not then any exterior Means any certain Authority to which one ought necessarily to submit Now Sir who can say this since JESUS CHRIST was upon the Earth that is the Truth it self which appear'd visibly in the midst of Men the Eternal Son of GOD to whom a Voice from on high bare Witness before all the People Matt. iii. v. 17. This is my well-beloved Son hear ye him who to confirm his Mission rais'd the Dead heal'd those that were born blind and wrought so many Miracles that the Jews themselves confess'd never any Man had done the like There was then Sir an exterior Means a visible Authority But 't was contested 'T is true but 't was infallible I do not pretend Sir that the Churches Authority should never be contested I hear you you Sir who contest it But I say it ought not to be so by Christians I say That she is Infallible I say That there never was any time when there was not on the Earth a visible and speaking Authority to which Men were oblig'd to submit Before JESUS CHRIST we had the Synagogue when the Synagogue was to fail JESUS CHRIST himself appear'd when JESUS CHRIST retir'd he left his Church to which he sent his Holy Spirit Bring again JESUS CHRIST teaching preaching working Miracles I have no longer need of the Church but also take from me the Church I must have JESUS CHRIST in Person speaking preaching deciding with Miracles and an infallible Authority But you have his Word Yes we have without doubt a Word Holy and Adorable but such an one as suffers it self to be explicated and manag'd how one will and makes no Reply to those that misunderstand it I say we must have an exterior Means of resolving Doubts and this Means must be certain And not to go over again the Reasons already alledg'd now there is nothing else requir'd but to answer your Objection concerning the Error of the Synagogue I aver you are so far from being able to say That there was not then a certain exterior Means or speaking Authority to which Men were oblig'd to submit their Judgments that you must avow there was one the highest and most infallible that ever was which is that of JESUS CHRIST and so that there was never any time when the Argument I use against the Protestants could less be made which is That they want an exterior infallible Means to determine Doubts about the Scriptures After I had said this I perceiv'd there was no Reply to be made me In effect There was not a Word said to me upon it thô I held my Peace to hear what Answer would be made I will not say that Mr. Claude stood silent 't is an Effect not much to be expected in Conferences of this nature He repeated something of what he had already said and insisted afresh on what the Apostle himself had declar'd That he had not Dominion over the Consciences I was glad that he return'd to this Passage which I had an intent of Explicating at first but was fain to go to what was most pressing which was the Example of the Synagogue This being done I only askt Mr. Claude whether the Apostles Meaning when he said to the Corinthians We have not Dominion over your Faith was that they must examin after him He saw well that it was not and confest it I concluded Nor does the Church Sir pretend to have Dominion over the Faith when she requires us to believe it in her Decisions because she gives not this Authority to her self no more than St. Paul did but to the Holy Ghost who inspires her You equal then said Mr. Claude to St. Paul Author of the
however it is and without disputing any farther since this is no place for it we have shewn that 't is a Doctrin acknowledg'd in the new Reformation That every particular Person ought to examin after the Church and consequently ought to believe That he may happen to understand the Scripture better than she and all her Assemblies Those that abhor this Presumption or that upon Examination find not in themselves this false Capacity have no more to do but to seek their Salvation in another Church than that in which so prodigious a Doctrin is profess'd The Third REFLECTION On another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference An Explication of the manner of Instructing Christians and That the Churches infallible â—â—thority is necessary for the knowing and understanding of Scripture THE second Absurdity I promis'd to make Mr. Claude and every good Protestant avow is That unless there be acknowledg'd in the Church an Authority after which there must be no more examining nor doubting there is a Necessity of setting a Point of time in which the Believer at the Age of Reason cannot make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture and in which consequently he must doubt whether it be true or false I assign'd for this Point of Doubt all the time in which a Christian for what cause soever has not read the Holy Scripture Mr. Claude here cries out against so detestable a Proposition and I persist to say That he not only own'd it in the Conference but also that in what manner soever he here endeavours to turn things he has not been able to do it so well but that he still confesses it in the Relation In truth this is one of the Places in which I least remember our exact Words But there is still enough to convince him since if this Relation becomes publick every one will see he here acknowledges in formal Terms That he who has not yet read the Holy Scripture believes it to be GODs Word with human Faith because his Father told him so which is the State of a Catechumen and when he has himself read this Book and felt the Efficacy of it he believes it to be GODs Word no longer with an human Faith because his Father told him so but with a divine Faith because he has himself immediatly felt its Divinity and this is the State of a Believer 'T is then true that he has acknowledg'd the Time I undertook to shew when a Baptiz'd Christian is not in a Condition to make an Act of Supernatural and Divine Faith upon the Holy Scripture since he believes it to be GODs Word only by an human Faith and divine Faith cannot come till after the reading of it In what manner soever he turns this human Faith 't is an horrible thing that a Baptiz'd Christian at the Age of Reason cannot make upon the Scripture an Act of that Faith by which we are Christians For thence it follows That a Christian at his first going to read the holy Scripture ought neither to be inclin'd of himself or induc'd by any other to say at opening it I believe as I believe that GOD is that the Scripture I am going to read is his Word On the contrary they must make him say I am going to examin whether henceforth during the rest of my life I ought to read this Scripture with such a Faith 'T is to overthrow the whole Order of Instruction 't is to lose the Fruit of Baptism 't is to reduce Baptiz'd Christians to instruct their Children as if they were not so and that they were yet to deliberate of what Religion they should be And what Mr. Claude says concerning the Scripture the same he must say on the Faith of the Trinity on that of the Incarnation on that of JESVS CHRISTs Mission and the Redemption of Mankind For that which forces Mr. Claude and every Protestant to say That the Believer who has not read the holy Scripture can believe it only with an human Faith to be inspir'd by GOD is That otherwise they must acknowledg an Act of Divine Faith on the Churches sole Authority Which would be to own this Authority as infallible and ruin the very Foundations of all the new Reformation But the same Argument returns upon all the Articles of our Faith and if the Faithful can believe with a divine Faith both the Trinity and the Incarnation and Mission of JESVS CHRIST on the sole Authority of the Church and before he has read the holy Scripture I shall always conclude with equal Certainty That the Churches Authority will be infallible By the Consequence then of Mr. Claude's and all the Protestants Principle we must in reducing the Christians who go to read the holy Scripture to a bare human Faith concerning this Scripture reduce them at the same time to the like on the most Essential Articles of our belief This was not the Method of our Forefathers they did not thus teach Christians to instruct their Children When they baptiz'd them in their Infancy they said in that young Age Credo I believe No matter thô our Reformers have chang'd this Form 't was us'd in the very first Ages and will be always holy and venerable maugre all they can do But this Form us'd towards Children shews us that when they shall have the use of Reason they must be immediatly taught to make an Act of Faith and time must not be lost in exciting them to it They will then be capable of it they may say the same Creed they should have said if they had been baptiz'd at the Age of Understanding and to reduce them to a Faith barely human is to take from them the Grace of their Baptism and justify the Practice as well as the Doctrin of the Anabaptists And I conjure the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion not to believe that I alledge here the Anabaptists by way of exaggeration or to render them odious these manners are not beseeming Christians I am ready to make good that the Doctrin taught here by Mr. Claude and which all Protestants must teach with him introduces Anabaptism For if the Acts of divine Faith must be held in suspense till such time as one has read the holy Scripture and be instructed by himself if all the Acts that precede this Instruction are not Acts of Christians since they have for their foundation only an human Faith for the same reason Bapâ—â—â— must be deferr'd till that time and we must not make Christians that at the Age of Reason are uncapable to produce Acts of their Religion The Fourth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's objecting the same Difficulty to us about the Church as we do to him about the Scripture 'T IS in vain for Mr. Claude to answer us That he will make us the same Argument for the Church as we make him for the Scripture for to do this as we shew him a point of time which even at the use of Reason necessarily precedes
and to believe that they cease to be Pastors when they cease to be good People thô without Scandal this is the pernicious Doctrin of Wicleff which would put all the Church in Confusion Excepting this ill Sense which cannot be Mr. Claude's I grant him all he says for without doubt 't is not JESVS CHRISTs first Intent that there should be Ministers that are Deceivers this happens only thrô the Malice of the Enemy The Destinction of the Ministery is for true Believers JESVS CHRIST did not establish it to call into the Church Deceivers and Hypocrites who doubts it But nevertheless these Deceivers and these Hypocrites may be sufficiently of the Church to be lawful Pastors in it and the true Believers being to live to the end of the World under the Authority of this mixt Ministery he must then without examining whether the Ministers are good or evil shew us a Succession of them always manifest under which GOD has conserv'd his People The more I continue my Reading the more I find this Truth evidently declar'd For entring into the fourth Question I take good notice that Mr. Claude pretends there to shew that the Passages where JESVS CHRIST promises the Church to keep her always on the earth regard only the Society of true Believers but he forbears not always equally to own that this Church never ceases to be visible and that JESVS CHRIST has so promis'd I pretended to shew the visible Church in these words Vid. Sup. 7 8. seq Mat. xvi v. 18. Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it The Reasons I made use of to prove it may be seen Mr. Claude receives this Doctrin with its Proofs And he acknowledges that the Church which is spoken of in this Passage is in effect a confessing Church a Church which publishes the Faith a Church to which JESUS CHRIST has given an exterior Ministery a Church which uses the Ministery of the Keys and which binds and looses and which consequently has an Outside and a Visibility 'T is such a Church that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd to keep always on the earth Mr. Claude cannot suffer one to tell him that she ceases to be and thus she is always with all that Ministery which is essential to her which makes Mr. Claude conclude with me Vid. Sup. p. 9 10. c. that the Ecclesiastical Ministery shall last without discontinuance till the General Resurrection and to grant without difficulty that this Promise of JESVS CHRIST I will be always with you respects the Perpetuity of the Ecclesiastical Ministery Mat. xxviii v. 9. 20. JESVS CHRIST promises says he to be with the Church to baptize with her and to TEACH WITH HER WITHOUT INTERRUPTION EVEN TO THE END OF THE WORLD There shall then always be Teachers with whom JESVS CHRIST shall teach and true Preaching shall never cease in his Church But shall this Ministery last for ever so pure that none but good People shall be admitted to it We have seen that Mr. Claude pretends it not In effect there is no Promise of this perpetual Purity the Promise is that whatsoever the Manners of these Ministers may be JESVS CHRIST will always act always baptize and ALWAYS TEACH with them and the Effect of this Ministery thô mixt shall be such that under its Authority the Church shall be always visible not indeed says Mr. Claude with a distinct view which goes so far as to say Such and such are 〈…〉 which it notwithstanding CERTAIN and which goes so 〈…〉 say The true 〈…〉 to 〈◊〉 IN THAT EXTERIOR PROFESSION Let us not call if they will by the Name of the Church all that exterior Profession let us abstain from this Name since Mr. Claude is against it and like true reasonable and peaceable Christians let us endeavour to agree on the thing This exterior Profession which may be always 〈◊〉 and as I may say pointed to with the Finger is mixt of Good and Evil the Ministery which governs it is also mixt Mr. Claude agrees all this it may nevertheless be said Under this Ministery and in this exterior Profession are the 〈◊〉 Believers This is what we just now heard from the same Ministers Mouth If then according to his Doctrin the Society of true Believers subsists for ever and continues always visible on the earth if it may always be shewn in an exterior Profession and is visible only there as Mr. Claude says it not only follows that true Believers shall always be upon the earth but that this Profession mixt of Good and Bad where there true Believers are found where they are pointed to where they are markt shall be there also this is what we agree on with Mr. Claude But since all these Passages are dispers'd up and down his Answer see here one in which he has taken care to collect all together 'T is after his fourth Question and in the seventh Consequence that this Minister endeavouring to explicate the XXXI Article of the Confession of Faith where it is said that in our days and before the Reformation the State of the Church was interrupted distinguishes the State of the Church interrupted for a time from the Church which is never interrupted according to his Principles and thâ—s he defines the Church The Church says he is the true Faithful who make Profession of the Christian Truth of Piety and of true Holiness under a Ministery which fâ—â—nishes her with the Alments necessary for the spiritual Life without depriving her of any of them We shall discover in its time the secret of these spiritual Aliments In the mean while 〈…〉 agree with Mr. Claude that the Church always subsist and always subsists visible since by his Definition she is nothing 〈◊〉 but the true Believers who MAKE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN TRUTH under the Ecclesiastical Ministery Behold an immoveable Foundation Let us see what we can build on it but before we build we are going to see the Objections fall The Twelfth REFLEXION Two of Mr. Claude's principal Objections resolv'd by his own Doctrin MR. Claude objects to me first Man Aus that I desire in vain to establish my Society compos'd of Good and Bad and its eternal Duration on these inviolable Promises of JESVS CHRIST Thou art Peter and I am always with you 'T is not says he of the Wicked that it can be said that Hall shall not prevail against them 'T is not with Wicked men and Hypocrites that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd always to be and these Promises respect none but true Believers Let us add according to Mr. Claude's Principles that if these Promises respect only true Believers they respect them at least in this Ministery and in this exterior Profession and the Objection will be at the same time resolv'd For in fine if the true Believers ought to be always shewn and always visible according to Mr. Claude in this