first that Augustine speaketh of ancient miracles for he saith tenet me authoritas miraculis inchoata authoritie begunne by miracles doth hold me in Secondly I answer that Augustine doth preferre truth before miracles in the same place he confesseth that veritas est illis omnibus praeponenda truth is to be preferred before all those things Now I returne the argument They which haue true miracles are the true Church But the Protestants haue true miracles Ergo. For the proofe of the assumption we produce the Apostles miracles by which that doctrine which we maintaine was confirmed many hundred yeares agoe If our doctrine be not conteined in the scriptures let it be disprooued by the same But because the Doctour saith out of Augustine that he is bound in the Church by the bond of miracles I would it might please him a little to listen vnto S. Augustine writing thus de Vni eccle cap. 16. Non dicat ideò verum esse quia illa illa mirabilia fecit Donatus vel Pontius c. Let no man say it is true because Donatus or Pontius hath done these or these miracles or because men at the memorie of the dead doe pray and are heard or because these or these things doe happen there or because this our brother or that our sister saw such a vision waking or dreamed such or such a vision sleeping In in the same cap. Augustine speaketh thus quaecunque talia such things whatsoeuer are to be approoued because they are done in the Catholike Church yet it is not made knowne by them Belsee his reports of Luther and Calvin we reiect and touching our Gospel it is not altogether without miracles in these daies your Idols are fallen quisquis adhuc prodigia vt credat inquirit The world beleeuing whosoeuer seeketh for wonders that he might beleeue is himselfe a wonder Take heede therefore M. Doctour least you make your selfe a miracle that will not beleeue without miracles The 7. reason visions and the gift of prophesie Cytharaedus ridiculus chorda qui semper oberrat eadem This Doctour harpeth alwaies vpon one string he is not contented with Miracles but now he commeth to Visions and confidently affirmeth that visions and the gift of prophesie were neuer found to be but in the true Church yet Aquinas in his 2. 2. 172. quest art 6. teacheth that prophetae daemonum aliquando verum praedicant the deuills prophets sometimes foretell the truth yea he auoucheth that propheta daemonum non semper loquuntur ex revelatione daemonum sed interdum ex inspiratione divina that the deuills prophets did not alwaies speake by reuelation from the deuill but sometime by inspiration from God and this he prooueth by Balaam his example vnto whome the Lord spake as it is in the 22. of Numb The Sybilles as the Doctour himselfe confesseth prophesied for the confirmation of right religion yet were they Ethnicks and liued amongst them Who dare say that the Church were with the heathen because of the Sybilles But I draw this argument into a syllogisme They which haue visions and the gift of prophesie are the Church But the Papists haue visions and the gift of prophesie Ergo. Aquinas as you haue heard M. Doctour denieth your proposition and whereas you would prooue the same because S. Paul S. Peter and S. Iohn stand vpon Reuelations behold now your double follie First you thus conclude the Church had visions therefore it onely hath visions which is as good as if a man should conclude the Church teacheth the Trinitie ergo no heretikes teach the same Secondly the Church had visions therefore it shall alwaies haue visions who will graunt you this consequence S. Augustine saith 3. booke de bap cap. 10. that miracles were ad ecclesiae primordia dilatanda to enlarge the beginnings of the Church so were visions to last for a time I returne the argument They which haue visions and the gift of prophesie are the true Church But the Protestants haue visions Ergo they are the true Church The Assumption is prooued by S. Pauls Saint Peters and Saint Iohns visions our doctrine is the same with theirs Saint Iohn heard a voice from heauen saying Blessed are the dead for they rest from their labours so say we therfore there is no purgatorie paines for them after this life The Scriptures teach that the sufferings of Christ are a perfect and full satisfaction for our sinnes so say we and therefore there remaineth not any part of Gods iustice to be satisfied by vs. But let vs see what visions the Papists haue and what a dangerous thing it is to stand vpon visions Bellarmine in his 2. booke of purgatorie and 7. chap. alleadgeth a vision out of Beda to prooue besides hell purgatorie and heauen a fourth place namely pratum florentissimum dilucidissimum as it were a most goodly meadow And in the same booke and 4. chap. he sheweth that Dyonisius the Carthusian and Michael Baius by visions would prooue that the soules in purgatorie were not certen of their saluation which opinion he confuteth Thus you see out of your owne writers what credit is to be giuen to visions by such counterfaiting meanes we may prooue any thing I say therefore with Augustine Removeantur ista vel figmenta mendacium hominum vel portenta fallacium spirituum Away with these fained things of lying men or monsters of lying spirits And now M. Doctour to argue vpon your owne graunts both of miracles and visions You say that the heathen had prophesies to confirme right religion graunt you then that you haue some few which works both true miracles and see true visions it is not to confirme your erroneous doctrine but to confirme that truth of doctrine which is held in your Church for all them you are a corrupt Church yet there are some reliques of true doctrine remaining and so by sequele of your owne speech these things may come to passe to confirme that true doctrine which is amōgst you Heretikes haue held some true opinions that there heresies might be the better bolstered out You hold the Trinitie and some other points of religion it may be then that if there be any miracles or visions amongst you it is to confirme the reliques of that truth which remaineth with you Thus I haue argued vpon your owne wordes and graunt But for my part I hold with Chrysostome 49. hom in op◠imper that nunc nulla probatio esse potest vorae ecclesiae there can be now no proofe of the true Church but onely by the Scriptures He giueth a reason of his speach quia saith he qua propria sunt in veritate ca hareses habent in schismate habent ecclesias habent scripturas diuinas habent Episcopos caeterosque ordines clericorum habent baptismum habent Eucharistiam caeteraque omnia because those things which are peculiar to truth heresies haue in their schisme they haue Churches they haue Scriptures they haue Bishoppes
things but in scoffing manner if you doe seriously hold them prooue them seriously and not with ridiculous authorities The 11. reason Triall of truth That it appertaineth to the Church to trie and to discerne Spirits as also to determine and to decide doubts we confesse M. D. Trie all things saith Paul 1 Thess 5. 1. Ioh. 4. and S. Iohn commandeth vs to prooue the Spirits But the question is whether you are the Church or no Quid ergo facturi sumus what shall we doe I answer with Augustine propounding this question cap. 2. de vnitat that we must seeke the Church of Christ in his word qui veritas est optimè novit corpus suum who is truth best knoweth his bodie Where you say that we cannot otherwise but receiue the scriptures vpon the catholike Romane churches credit and also three Creedes and some articles of beleefe as the holy Ghost to proceede from the Father and the Sonne and many tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments I will answer these points seuerally And first I desire to know what reason you haue to make a particular church as the Romane church Catholike The Romane church if it were a true church is but a part of the catholike church It is Catholike saith Augustine because it is per totum through the whole world de vnit cap. 5. Cyril in his 18. chap. among many reasons of the name giueth this Quia per vniversum sit orbem terrarum diffusa because it is diffused thorough the whole world Is it all one to say I beleeue the Catholike Church and to say I beleeue the Romane church To leaue this matter and to come to your speech that it is not possible to know the Bible which is vsed amongst Christians to be the true word of God indeede but vpon the Romane churches credit First such idle questions the olde heretikes the Manichees demanded of S. Augustine to whome S. Augustine answered Lib. 32. cap 21. cont Faust Man Si quaeratis à nobis vnde nos sciamus Apostolorum esse istas literas breuiter vobis respondemus inde nos scire vnde vos scitis illas literas esse Manichaei If you demand of vs how we know that these be the Apostles writings we shape you this short answer as you know that your writings are of the heretike Manichee Secondly I would know how you can prooue any church to be the church but by the Scriptures if you cannot prooue the church but by the Scriptures then the Authoritie of the church dependeth vpon them and not è contra Thirdly we receiue not the Scriptures vpon the Romane churches credit for then we should haue receiued also the bookes which are Apocrypha as well as the true Canon of the bible for the Romane church doth receiue them Fourthly we receiue the Scriptures from the Scriptures themselues Many men by the heauenly maiestie of the Scriptures are mooued to receiue them before they know which is the true church Gonarus con Cost Iustin Martyr saith that Christs words haue in thâ—â— feare to perswade in dialogo cum Try Mantuan de pat l. 3. c. 2. saith thus Firmiter scripturas ideo credimus quòd diuinam inspirationem intra accipimus we steadfastly beleeue the scriptures because we haue receiued an inward inspiration from God He that will despise the Scriptures will despise the Church He that will not beleeue there is a God because the Scriptures teach it will not beleeue it because the Church teacheth the same The Scriptures were credited before the Romane church was ens or in rerum natura The Apostles beleeued the Gospel of our Sauiour Christ before he wrought any miracle because it was testified by the scriptures Ioh. 1.46 Adam and others beleeued without the church Our Sauiour Christ preached Repent and beleeue the Gospel which some did without the Church Eusebius in his third booke and 21. chap. writeth that the Gospels of Thomas and others were reiected because that phraseos character à consuetudine Apostolica variat ipsa sententia propositum eorum quae in illis adferuntur plurimum à veritate rectae doctrinae discrepant the style doth varie from the Apostolicall manner and the matter and the intent of those things which are alleadged in them doe much differ from the truth of right doctrine The consent of Scriptures the miracles and prophesies with many other arguments draw a man to credit the same yea the deadly hatred which the world beareth vnto them perswadeth not a little Sacris Scripturis saith Bellarmine nihil est notius Lib. 1. cap. 2. de vâ—â— Dâ—i nihil certius there is nothing more knowne and certaine then the Scriptures Read Bellarmine your selfe M. Doctor that he may satisfie you in this point But if we beleeue the Scriptures by the Church doth not the church teach vs to beleeue by the scriptures how can the church rightly perswade vs to beleeue but by preaching and producing of scriptures Ergo the scriptures are of much more force then the bare name of a church For propter quod vnumquodque tale est illud magis tale if the church induceth vs to beleeue then the scriptures doe much more because the church doth it by the scriptures The church is an excellent meanes ordained of God to bring men to beleefe neither doe we contemne the authoritie thereof The Samaritans beleeued by the testimonie of a woman Ioâ— 4. but afterward they beleeued because of Christ himselfe so the Church may bring one to beleeue but afterward to beleeue for the word it selfe The testimonie of Augustine is fraudulently alleadged by you his word is commoveret for he saith As there were many things which held him in the faith so if he were an infidel he would not beleeue the Gospel vnlesse the authoritie of the church with other things did mooue him ergo not onely the church and he speaketh if he were an infidell as the wordes going before doe plainly manifest Si invenies aliquem if thou shouldest finde any which yet doth not beleeue the Gospel what wouldest thou doe saying to thee I doe not beleeue then immediatly followeth your sentence I would not beleeue vnlesse c. Nicholaus Clenangis is worthie to be heard concerning this testimonie of Augustine Disp super Gâ—â— con Mirum sane prima specie satis videtur at the first fight it is maruell that he should preferre the authoritie of the church being a stranger in the earth before the authoritie of the Gospel seeing the Church may be deceiued in many things and the Gospel cannot Afterward he giueth the reason of Augustines speach because the Manichees did reiect Scriptures at their pleasures To stand yet somewhat longer in this testimonie Con. lib. 5 c. 1â— Augustine was mooued to beleeue by Ambrose is Ambrose his authoritie therefore equall to the scriptures God forbid whosoeuer listeth to read the 5. chap of the 6.
then vpon that Popes authoritie Pope Sixtus saith â—ead M. Iames. before the Vatican edition their vulgar latin translation was schismatis occasio the occasion of heresie Now Pope Clements edition is approoued farre differing from Sixtus edition What certaintie then haue Papists who will take the scriptures now vpon this now vpon that Popes warrant But I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which haue no certaine triall of truth are not the Church But the Protestants haue no certaine triall Ergo. I denie the assumption for we haue the scriptures which are the infallible rule of truth Our Sauiour Christ vanquished the deuill by the scriptures The Bereans tried the Apostles doctrine by the scriptures Lib. 2. denupt cap. â—â— and may not we so doe S. Augustine writeth thus Ista controuersia iudicem riquirit this controuersie requireth a iudge who shall be iudge he answereth Christ Iudicet Christus let Christ be iudge He doth name neither Pope nor Romish church For as he saith in another place Scriptura est eminentissima authoritatis 〈◊〉 Civit. l. 11. c. 3. the scriptures are of a most soueraigne and peerelesse authoritie Lib. 5. Optatus disputing whether the baptized are to be rebaptized is worthie to be heard Quarendi sunt saith he aliqui huius controuersiae indices si Christiani de viraque parte dari non possunt quia stuaijs veritas impeditur de foris quarendus est index si l'agaâ—â—â— non potest nosse Christiana secreta si Iudans inimiens est Christiani baptismatis ergo in terris haec de re nullum poterit reperiri iudicium de coelo quaerendus sed vt quid puâ—samus ad coelum cum habemus hîc in Euangelio testamentum inquam quia hoc loco recte possunt terrena coelestibus comparari Some iudges for this controuersie are to be fought for if Christians they cannot be had on both sides because by part-taking the truth is hindred we must seek abroad for a iudge if he be a Pagan he knoweth not Christian secrets if a Iewe he is an enemie to Christian baptisme in earth there can be found no iudgement a iudge from heauen must be required But why doe we knocke at heauen when we haue in the Gospel a testament because in this place earthly things may be fitly coÌ„pared to heauenly things I maruell M. Doctor that your vanting vpon all the Fathers light not vpon this Father who is as you call them a plaine Calvinist But I returne your argument They which haue no certaine triall of the truth are not the Church But the Papist haue no certaine triall of the truth Ergo. The assumption is manifest because they relie vpon Popes that may erre Marellinus sacrificed to idols Liberius was an Arrian And more then this some Iudas might creepe into the office as your Rhemists confesse Some Popes they will not appeale to Councells as it it manifest by the Councell of Basil And M. Doctor in a word what certaintie haue you or can you haue if there happen to be a schisme amongst the Popes The 22. schisme continued 40. yeares as it is recorded in Fascic Temp. and vntill Martin the 5. it was not manifest who was Pope You blaspheme the Scriptures Turrian calleth them a Delphian sword made for want The Censure of Colen saith that it is veluti nasus caereus a nose of waxe O Antichristian Prelates the Lord rebuke you for these your blasphemies against his holy Bible What triall of truth you haue I hope I haue made plaine to your owne conscience M. Doctor In the ende of this chapter you call vs boat-swanes admitting no iudge and say we haue no meanes to rest vntill we end in Atheisme That this name of boat-swanes may returne vpon your head I pray you consider how M. Harding pleadeth for your Pope to be head of the church because the Prophet Hose prophesieth that the children of Israel and Iudah shall haue one head Out vpon you Antichristian heretikes that euer you should thus abuse the holy Bible touching Atheisme wheÌ„ce did Machiauell spring Caius constantly auoucheth Italie to be the very fouÌ„taine of Atheists I conclude this reason with the saying of Picus Mirandula Magna profecto insania est Euangelio non credere cuius veritatem sanguis martyrum clamat Apostolicae resonant voces prodigia probant ratio confirmat mundus testatur elemeÌ„ta loquuÌ„tur Daemones confitentur sed longe maior insania si de Euangelij veritate non dubitas viuere tamen quasi de eius falsitate non dubitares It is exceeding madnesse not to credit the Gospel the truth whereof the blood of Martyrs doth crie the Apostolicall words doe sound miracles do prooue reason doth confirme the world doeth witnesse the elements doe vtter the deuils confesse but it is farre greater folly if thou doubtest not of the trueth of the Gospell so to liue as if thou madest no question but it were false The twelfth reason the vse and custome of the Church De faece hauris you drawe of your dregges M. Doctor when you will beate vs downe with the bare club of custome Custome in ciuill affaires may preuaile much but in diuinity it is not worth a rush except it be ioyned with trueth Prudentius answereth Symmachus making this defence Suus cuique mos suus cuique ritus est Euery one hath his manner and rite Quid mihi tu ritus solitos Romane senator obiectas cum scita patrum populique frequenter in tabulis placiti sententia flexa nouarit Nunc etiam quoties solitis decedere prodest praeteritosque habitus cultu damnare recenti Why doest thou obiect vnto me Custome when a diuers opinion hath changed the decrees of Father and people now also how often doeth it auaile to depart from custome and by a newe manner to condemne the olde habits Morosa moris retentio res est aequè turbulenta ac nouitas A wayward retaining of a Custome is as turbulent a thing as noueltie Balsamon vpon Photius saith that aequitate exigente mutamus consuctudinem Tom. 6. when equitie requireth it we change custome And againe Vidi non scriptam consuetudinem fuisse infirmatam I haue seene an vnwritten custome to haue beene infringed But saith the Doctor the vse and custome of the church hath beene alwaies an infallible rule to direct and order things by First the Doctor beggeth that which is a question taking the Romish Church to be the true Church We denie it prooue it before you plead custome Secondly the Church in times past did giue the Eucharist vnto Infants was this an infallible rule M. Doctor to giue the Sacrament of the bodie and blood of Christ vnto children if you denie that the Church did so you may be confounded with infinite testimonies of authors Augustine in his first booke de peccato mort cap. 20. is plaine vpon which place Erasmus hath made this marginall note Lib. 1. cap. 2. cont Iulian. Nunc
Transubstantiation but you haue purged him to your perpetuall shame as testifieth your Index expurgatorius the title is vt liber Bertrami how the booke of Bertrame beeing amended may be tolerated But let it be graunted that the truth of doctrine was not publike for many yeares yet might there be a Church For at the comming of our Sauiour Christ the Pharisies had the gouernement and were blinde guides yet was there a Church and a number of chosen people as Ioseph Marie Simon and Anna. In Elias time when religion was corrupt the Lord had thousands which neuer bowed their knees to Baal But I returne the argument Largenes of dominion is a note of the Church But for many hundred yeares after Christ our Church had largenes of dominion Ergo. Secondly the Doctor fearing least our Church should flourish and dilate it selfe affirmeth that the Church is now old to make her flourish in her old age is to make her a monster Verily we acknowledge that shee flourished in her young age if these titles of young and old may be attributed to her but shall not the Church flourish in her old age as you speake M. Doctour what then is become of largenes of dominion If largenes of dominion be a note of the true Church then it shall be alwaies ample and large Indeede thankes be to God our Church now is ample as testifie England Scotland Denmarke Suetia Saxonie Helvetia and other countries and therefore the Doctour varieth in this point But that Antichrist shall be reuealed and the Church increase it is plaine out of the 2. Thess 2. where Paul prophesieth that the Lord shall consume him with the spirit of his mouth This to be done we see it daily with our eyes for by the preaching of the Gospel Antichrist is continually lessened Moreouer in this reason the Doctour affirmeth that persecution of any moment is not against Papists but onely in England The persecution of Papists in England is for treason as their owne writings testifie The title of the booke is this Important coÌ„siderations which ought to mooue all true Catholikes to acknowledge that the proceedings of her Maiestie since the beginning of her highnes raigne haue bin both mild and mercifull The Rhemists are contrarie to this Doctour for they writing vpon the 20. of the Rev. affirme Catholikes to be persecuted not onely in England but also in Scotland Flaunders and other places thus well heretikes agree amongst themselues To be briefe the Papists are so persecuted that they are benè habiti well liking as all men know and haue affluentiam honorum store of goods But the Doctour desireth to be told whether against all learned Physitians and against all Lawyers one or two of later yeares are to be credited I answer if they haue the truth on their sides they are Might not Michaiah haue beene posed with this question who was but one against foure hundred prophets Did not Paphnutius stand vp in the Councell of Nice and teach that a heauie yoke should not be laid on those which were dedicated to the ministerie Here was one against that famous Councell This question might well haue beene demaunded of Eugenius who would not obey the Councell of Basill 1â—00 de gest conc Ba. Aeneas Silvius writeth thus Neque in Concilio dignitas patrum sed ratio spectanda est in a Councell the dignitie of men is not to be regarded but reasons And againe Non ergo cuiusvis Episcopi mendacium quamvis ditissimi veritati praeponam pauperis praesbyteri I will not preferre Bishops vntruths before an Elders truth though one be rich and the other very poore What should I speake of Athanasius condemned in the Councell of Millan Panormitane is plaine Whiâ—ak 34. p. cont Dur. Plus credendum est vel simplici Laico scripturam proferenti quà m toti simul Concilio A lay-man is more to be beleeued alleadging scripture then a whole Councell Hierome translated the scriptures according to the Hebrew whereas before the authoritie of the 70. Ann. 39â— interpreters was currant yet saith Sigebert praevaluit authoritas Hebraica veritatis the authoritie of the Hebrew truth preuailed Hieroms act was against inveteratum vsum Ecclesiae the auncient custome of the Church Whereas he calleth Luther a loose Apostata and M. Calvin a soare backt priest for Sodomie I doubt not but that for such slaunders of these men good men shall more and more abhorre poperie And for thy satisfying Christian Reader I desire thee to read that which Erasmus hath written concerning Luther and that which is printed by Beza concerning Calvins life Sodomie is too common among Papists as witnesseth Picus Mirandula in his oration to Leo the tenth in these words Sacrae aedes ac templa lenonibus ac calamytis commissa Churches and temples are committed to bauds and boies abused contrarie to nature With Picus agreeth Mantuan Sanctus ager scurris venerabilis ara cynaedis seruit honorandae divum Ganymedibus aedes The Church lands are giuen to common lesters the sacred altars allotted to wantons the temples of Saints to boies prouided for filthie lusts Lastly whereas he faith that if he should refuse the Catholike Romane religion his Ancetours would vse such speeches as these doest thou condemne all our doings doest thou send vs all to hell c. I answer that God hath not referred vs from his word to our fathers Walke not in the precepts of your fathers Ezek. 20. neither obserue their manners nor defile your selues with their Idols saith the Lord. We condemne not our fathers except they condemned theÌ„selues Dei iudicia occulia sed semper iusta Gods iudgements are secret but alwaies iust If our fathers held the foundation as I hope many did they might be saued Ignosci potest simpliciter erranti he that erreth of ignorance sinneth lesse then he to whome knowledge is reuealed I conclude with Cyprian Si solus Christus audiendus if onely Christ must be heard we must not regard what any before vs hath thought meete but what Christ himselfe hath done for a man must not follow custome but Gods truth And with Prudentius who answereth Symmachus his obiection Nobis sequendi sunt parentes we must follow our fathers frustrà igitur solitis prava observatio inhaeres in vaine dost thou cleaue to custome ô wicked obedience The sixth reason Miracles M. Doctour Noli illud tà m confidenter affirmare quod socij tui falsum esse docuerunt auouch not that so boldly which your fellowes haue taught to be false True miracles say you were neuer wrought but by them which were of the true religion for that they are done onely by the power of God The Rhemists vpon the 9. of Marke are of another minde for thus they write Miracles are wrought sometimes by the name of Iesus whatsoeuer the man be when it is for the proofe of truth or for the glorie of God insomuch that Iulian the Apostata himselfe did driue away deuills with
confirme their opinions and to be reade for proofe of them as I haue shewed Yea they fly to traditions which the heretickes before named might also haue iustified if the Canonicall scriptures had not beene sufficient Tenthly the Manichees vsed but one part of the Communion for they would not haue wine so doe the Papists as it is notorious to all men I might mention many other heresies held by Papists but I haue handled them in another worke therefore I will not recite them here Touching the manners of heretickes if crueltie be a badge of heretickes then are Papists rightly mustered amongest heretickes for they haue most barbarously murdered many men as I will shewe God willing in the next reason The 24. reason Peace and tranquilitie It is a heathen Principle that Legem sibi ipsis indicunt innocentiae continentiae virtutumque omnium qui ab altero rationem vitae reposcunt They which require a reason of another mans life make to themselues a law of innocencie continencie of all vertues To accuse men of tumults when they are themselues tumultuous is intollerable Quis tulerit Gracchos de seditione querentes who can beare it that Gracchus should complaine of sedition that Verres should speake against theft and Milo against murther who could thinke that Papists should speake against warres cruelties and outragious tragedies when they haue spilt exceeding much innocent blood The Spanish inquisitions and French Massacres haue murdered men women and children by thousands Phocas murdered Mauritius the Emperour by whose meanes Boniface the Pope obtained that roome and should be called the head of all Churches as Gotfridus testifieth Here Christian Reader thou maiest see that the Pope cam vp by murder Pope Vrban the fixt bound fiue Cardinalls in a sacke and drowned them in the sea He tooke the kingdome of Sicile from the Queene and gaue it to others Symachus and Laurentius did striue for the Popedome which contention lasted yeares cum effusione sanguinis multorum tam clericorum quà m laicorum With the shedding of many mens blood both of the cleargie laietie Alexander 2. Codulus contended for the Popedome which contention vsque ad homicidia prorupit brake forth into murther as witnesseth Sigebert The histories are full of such examples yet saith the Doctor the Catholike Romane religion began with meekenesse mildenesse and with all quiet and peaceable meanes Whereas the Protestants both haue begun and hold on their course with seditious tumults That you may knowe your peaceable proceedings heare what Wicellensis writeth concerning Hildebrande Miscuit se plurimorum mortibus Christianorum succendent vbique incendia bellorum per totum pene Romanum imperium He thrust himselfe into the deaths of many Christians kindling warres almost throughout the whole Romane Empire Iohn Hus was burned although he had safe conduct promised him Certain men called cruciatores whē they should haue gone against the Turke hauing the Popes indulgences defloured women and murthered men to the number of three score and ten thousand Yea saith Landgius Scribi non potest quanta crudelitate vsi sunt It can not be vttered what crueltie they vsed Concerning the troubles in Germanie my purpose is not to speake of them neither will I meddle with the warres in Fraunce or Scotland Diuers countres haue diuers gouernments the tumults of any subiects against their soueraignes as we doe not allow so we may not condemne the poore afflicted Christians our neighbours before we heare what they can say for themselues I am a scholler not a souldier a diuine not a lawier The circumstances of forraine warres fewe knowe besides themselues as also we know not the lawes of those lands we will not therefore enter those acts which haue so many parts precedents causes concurrents From forraine common warres you come to England and are very busie with king Henrie the 8. king Edward the 6. princes of famous memorie It were best for you M. Doctor to leaue kingdoms and studie diuinitie you are so drownd in pollicie that you forget diuinity yet you can without teares recount summarily the troubles of this land So you may doe in regard of Queene Maries times when not onely Cranmer Archbishop of Canterbury Payne◠Bishop of Winchester Barloe of Bath Tailor of Lincolne with diuers other both Archdeacons and Deacons were put from their liuings and wonderfull store of blood shed these are the times that you should lament Yet it is to be lamented that any should be so obstinate on popery as to die in the same As for Queene Elizabeths gratious gouernment you are not ashamed also to controll it Yet Papists themselues teach that it was both milde and mercifull and had not her Maiestie cause to deale with Papists as shee did when the Pope excommunicated her and stirred vp the Northen rebels her owne subiects to rebell against her Doctor Saunders did thrust himselfe into the Irish warres against her Maiestie If the Pope had so dealt with the king of Spaine as he hath dealt with our late most renowmed Queene would the king of Spaine haue taken it When I weighed and considered these things with my selfe I could not but dislike the Romish religion accompanied with tumults insurrections ruines desolations and with all manner of tragicall miseries and cleaue vnto this religion in England which euer teacheth peace as our writings shewe But it may be M. Doctor your owne men will beare some credit with you Cardinall Poole in his imagined oration to Charles the Emperour calling backe his Maiestie from the Turke to leaue all other affaires and to bend his banners against England and encouraging the subiects of this realme boldly to rebell against their Prince speaketh after this manner English men are a people that oftentimes haue deposed their kings for lighter causes This book as reuered Iuell testifieth was abroad and might be seene wherefore if peace wil preuaile with you call to minde that you haue bin the firebrands fo sedition the trueth is you would force to religion but you would not be forced The 25. reason All kinds of witnesses Euery man knoweth or may knowe M. Doctor that your tonge ouerreacheth when you say we can bring nothing to witnes our religiō but only the scriptures We haue produced the fathers of the primitiue Church to confirme the same but if we haue the scriptures on our side it is sufficient though all men were against vs that Gods word is not contrarie it is most true but that your practises are consonant to the same it is most false as likewise that we will admitte noe expositors of holy scriptures but the scriptures themselues that the scriptures expound themselues in matters necessary to saluation I thinke you will not denie your selfe Master Doctor neither will you alwaies take the fathers expositions Caietan confesseth that the sense of the scriptures is not tied to the Fathers exposition as I can shew but you demaund why Luther confesseth that he could not denie the reall
the signe of the crosse as Gregorie Nazianzen writeth orat in Iulian. Theodo lib. 3. cap. 3. hist and so heretikes may doe miracles among the heathen If miracles may be done by heretikes they are then not alwaies done by those which are of the true religion except heretikes be of the true religion Thus your owne men M. Doctour driue you to the wall Socrates in his 7. booke and 17. chap. reporteth a miracle done by Paulus a Novatian Bishop Iudaeus quidam veteratus Christianam fidem simulans saepius baptizatus fuit per quam fallaciam multas pecunias corrasit a certaine Iewe beeing an olde deceiuer and counterfeiting Christian religion was diuers times baptized by which deceit he gathered much money in the ende when he should be baptized by Paulus Vniuersa aqua divina quadam virtute quae oculis cerni non poterat subitò exhausta est all the water by Gods power which could not be seene suddenly vanished away Here you see a Novatian bishop did a miracle And so men if they should credit miracles without true doctrine might be drawne to heresie Thomas your Angelicall doctour in his first part and 114. quest art 4. teacheth that daemones possunt vera miracula facere ad seducendum the deuills may doe true miracles to seduce and he prooueth it out of Augustine who writeth that Magicis artibus sunt plerunque miracula similia illis miraculis quae sunt per dei servos miracles are done by Magicke euen such as Gods seruants doe In the same place he answereth the vulgar argument which is this then they are not effectuall to confirme faith Read his answer your selfe M. Doctour at your owne leisure Where you say miracles are done onely by the power of God if you speake exactly of miracles I ioyne with you for as the same Aquinas teacheth in his 110. quest that is properly a miracle which is done praetor ordinem totius naturae creatae aboue all power that is created When God worketh such miracles by false prophets and heretikes he doth it to trie men as Moses speaketh in the 13. of Deut. If there arise among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreames and giue thee a signe or a wonder and the signe come to passe thou shalt not hearken vnto the words of the prophet for the Lord your God prooueth you to know whether you loue the Lord your God with all your heart or no. Out of this place it is plaine that God will trie his seruants sometimes by wonders and therfore they are not alwaies done to confirme true religion In the Questions that goe vnder Iustins name the author thus propoundeth the question 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 if heretikes worke wonders as curing of diseases casting out of deuills how commeth it to passe that they should not be confirmed in their errours he answereth as God causeth the sunne to shine vpon the good and bad not to confirme them in their wickednes but to make a way to his righteous iudgements so he doth in heretikes that worke wonders Hence I gather that the Lord doth prepare a way for his will when false prophets worke any wonders But I reduce his reason into a syllogisme That religion which hath miracles is the true religion But the Romane religion hath miracles Ergo. I denie the proposition for I haue prooued it false by sundrie testimonies I will now annexe Tertullian his speech who writeth thus Adijcient praetereà multa de authoritate cuiusque haeretici illos maximè doctrinae suae fidem confirmasse mortuos suscitasse De prae debiles reformasse futura significasse quasi nec hoc scriptum sit venturos multos qui virtutes maximas aederent ad fallaciam muniendam corruptae praedicationis Furthermore they will alleadge for the authoritie of Heretikes that they haue especially confirmed their doctrine by raising of the dead by restoring the weake by foretelling future things as if it were not written that many should come working wonders to confirme their corrupt preaching In Gratian I finde this sentence 2. part causa 1. Non melius debet credi propter miracula nam communia sunt bonis malis men are not the better to be credited for miracles because they are common to good and bad many of the auncient miracles we acknowledge This Doctor numbreth some in Tertullians time and in others but let him shew the Romane faith to be wholly the same as then it was Miracles might then be needefull to conuert Pagans and Iewes amongst whome Christians were dispersed but the popish miracles are fained things Lib. 5. as testifieth Pabrugenius Heu quas non nugas quae non miracula fingunt vt vulgus fallant optataque praemia carpant what miracles doe they not faine for reward Lyra writeth thus vpon the 14. of Dan. Aliquando fit in Ecclesia maxima deceptio populi in miraculis fictis à sacerdotibus vel eis adhaerentibus propter lucrum temporale talia sunt extirpanda à bonis praelatis sicut ista miracula extirpata sunt à Daniele Sometime euen in the Church the people is shamefully deceiued with fained miracles wrought either by their priests or by their companions for lucres sake and good Prelates are to abandon such as Daniel did These testimonies may suffice any man not beeing vttered by a Calvinist as they cal them but by some of their owne coate Iuel ex Cop. What should I speake of making barren weomen beare by holy water and driuing mise out of the countrey by the same Eras pere ergo The milke of the Virgin Marie and the blood of harts are not yet forgotten the transportation of the virgin Maries house Gomarus 16 p. is monstrous to remember The author reporteth that venienti domicilio arbores obvias velut venerabundas inclinasse trees did meete it and bowing downe did worship it Gregorius Turonensis reporteth Lib. 9. cap. 6. that one in stead of Saints reliques had sacculum magnum plenum de radicibus diuersarum herbarum dentes talpae ossa muruum vngues vrsinos a great sacke full of rootes of diuers hearbs and there were also teeth of moules and the bones of mise and beares clawes But I take no pleasure in heaping together this trash and therefore I come to Augustines authorities alleadged by this Doctor The first is not in the 17. cap. but in the 16. de vtil creden where he saith that miracula nos movent miracles mooue vs but he speaketh of Christ miracles as it is manifest towards the ende of the chap. homines illius temporis aquam in vinum conuersam viderunt the men of these times did see water turned into wine In the second place he saith that ista vincula rectè hominem credentem tenent in ecclesia catholica Con. epist fâ—n cap. 5. these bands doe by right hold a beleeuer in the Church speaking of miracles and other things I answer
and other cleargie orders they haue baptisme the Eucharist and all other things He proceedeth affirming that the church was in times past knowne by miracles but now they are either ended or els in greater number with false Christians yea he auerreth that a man might know by the liues of men which was the true Church but now Christians were worse then either hereticks or Ethnicks If this worke were written by an Arrian as some say yet there is no cause to condemne this excellent sentence prooued by so weightie reasons The eight reason Scriptures We haue finished by Gods assistance seuen Reasons some of which as the Doctour seemeth to graunt are nothing worth without Scripture and therefore he saith that they teach not any doctrine but such as is deriued out of the holy Bible If you would abide by this confession you would not hold so many vnwritten opinions as you doe For adoration of Images for the halfe communion for the Popes not erring for the lent fast with other points of Poperie what scripture is there It is one of your principles Cens Colon. that traditiones ecclesiae non scriptae credendae ac seruandae sunt vnwritten traditions are to be beleeued and kept Hence I conclude after this manner They which hold opinions by vnwritten traditions deriue not all their opinions out of the scriptures But the Papists hold some opinions by vnwritten traditions Ergo. But good M. Doctour are we driuen to denie certaine parts of Gods holy Bible for the maintaining of our opinions and are the Manichees our predecessours take heede least by auouching vntruths you doe vastare conscientiam make shipwracke of conscience If Luther reiected the epist of S. Iames what is that to vs Caietane will haue it to be minoris authoritatis quam caeteras Bell. lib. 1. cap. 17. 2. booke 23. of lesse authoritie then the other epistles Eusebius saith sciendum est eam esse adulterinam we must know that it is a bastard epistle Euseb 3.22 cap. Now I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which refuse bookes of Scripture frame that bible to their opinions But the Protestants refuse bookes of Scripture Ergo. I denie the assumption which is set downe without any proofe and for the disproofe of the same I will not content my selfe with a few fathers but will produce a cloud of witnesses that the Papists may see their proud bragge of fathers Origen at Eusebius speaketh thus Euseb hist 6. booke 24. Hand ignorandum fieret esse veteris testamenti libros sicut Hebraei tradunt viginti duos qui etiam numerus apudeos est literarum We must vnderstand that there are 22. bookes of the old Testament as the Hebrewes doe teach which also is the number of letters Hence I gather that if the Canonicall bookes answer the hebrew letters then there are but 22. otherwise there should be more then the letters are Melito numbreth the same bookes which we doe excepting the booke of Wisdome as witnesseth Eusebius 4. book 25. Cyril of Ierusalem in his 4. catechisme exhorteth the Catechumenes to read 22. bookes but that he reckneth Baruck with Ieremie he reckneth the same which we doe and directly warneth vs vt cum Apocryphis nihil habeamus negotij that we haue nothing to doe with Apocryphal bookes for saith he multò prudentiores te religiosiores fuerint Apostoli primi Episcopi veritatis duces qui nobis eas tradiderunt the Apostles and first Bishops were wiser and more religious then thy selfe they deliuered these scriptures to vs. Leontius in his 2. action of sects agreeth with these authors saying that veteris scripturae libri sunt viginti duo there are 22. bookes of the old testament Innilius reiecteth the Machabees from diuine scripture quoniam apud Hebraeos super hac differentia recipiebantur libri Canonici sicut Hieronymus alijque testantur because with the Iewes the canonicall bookes were receiued with this difference as Ierome and other writers witnesse He reiecteth Iob and some other bookes which are Canonicall by his owne reason namely because they were of that authoritie with the Iewes Amphilochius differeth not from the aboue named writer after that he hath set downe the same number which we doe excepting the booke of Wisdome which yet it may be but put in for verse because he reckneth but three of Salomon after I say he concludeth thus hic verissimus divinitus datarum est scripturarum Canon this is the most true Canon of the diuine scriptures Ruffinus in his exposition vpon the Creede saith that he will describe the Canonicall bookes of the olde testament which he doth after our order in England and acknowledgeth that non Canonicos libros legi voluerunt in ecclesiis sed non proferri ad authoritatem ex his fidei confirmandaÌ„ they wil haue the books that are not Canonicall to be read in Churches but not to be aleadged to confirme a matter of faith I will not produce the testimonies of Hierome Epiphanius Nazianzen Athanasius and others because they are obvious to euery one neither will I conuince the Doctour by his owne writers as Caietan Hugo and Arias Montanus Iosephus is worthie to be heard who plainly teacheth that duo solum viginti libri fide digni esse creduntur Euseb 3. lib. hist â—0 onely 22. bookes are to be credited By this cloud of witnesses I hope Christian Reader thou maist see the vanitie of Papists who doe nothing but crepare patres patres crie the fathers they are on their side I returne the Argument They which adde bookes to diuine scriptures draw the holy Bible to their fancies But the Papists adde whole bookes to diuine scriptures Ergo Where he saith that the Catholikes follow the bible I will not stand vpon that famous corruption of the Hebrew psalter by an English Papist to iustifie their vulgar latin text but come to one place out of which they would gather purgatorie Where it is said that a certaine sinne shall not be forgiuen neither in this world Math. 11. nor in the world to come we expound it by Marke who saith it shall neuer be forgiuen the Papist saith Matthew must not be expouÌ„ded by Marke because he is shorter but is he not plainer How absurd is it to expound these words â—ell lib. 1. de into cap. 4. he hath neuer forgiuenes to this sense whereas to expound the words of Matthew by Marke hath an excellent construction Thus euery man may see who draw the scriptures to their fancies whether Papists or Protestants The 9. reason Councells Whether the Church of God hath euer bin accustomed when any heresie did spring vp therein to gather a Councell of Bishops Prelates and other learned men I will not stand to dispute If your meaning be M. Doctour that nothing is heresie but that which is condemned by a Councell Lib. 4. cont dâ—â—s epist Pelag. in fine I vtterly renounce your vaine conceit Let Augustine
Gregorius Dyonisius saith Picus Mirandula discordant circa ordines angelorum Gregorie and Dyonisius disagree about the order of angels If Gregorie dissenteth from him why may not Luther doe so Who so desireth to read more of this Dyonisius may be referred to Erasmus and Valla. That the Protestants raile at the fathers it must be numbred amongst the Doctours vntruths but by Protestants this man meaneth the Puritans forsooth although this odious name of Puritanes agreeth better to Papists August haeres 38. who doe so stand vpon their puritie because they can keepe all Gods commandements Yet know not I any so called that raile at all the fathers But here it is to be noted euen by his owne confession that the Protestant defend the fathers against the Puritanes therefore they raile not at them Thus M. Doctour you hardly know what you write you are so egerly carried against the Protestants somewhat ye would say but yet know not well how to vtter your minde We acknowledge the fathers to haue had excellent wits to haue studied and praied continually yet doe we not deifie them neither doe we account their writings canonicall scripture as Augustine speaketh of Cyprian lib. 2. cont Cres cap. 32. Where you call the Protestants foolish vnstudied vnlearned prophane and arrogant fellowes you bewray your vaine spirit Vascula inania maximè tinniunt the emptiest vessells make the greatest sound Of your learning we shall speake more hereafter in the meane time I would haue you to know that constat plures Papaâ— adeò illiteratos fuisse vt Grammaticam penitus ignorarent Alphon. l. 1. c. 4. it is certenly knowne that sundrie Popes haue bin so vnlearned that they neuer vnderstood their Grammar You say further that Protestants are giuen to lust ambition gluttonie and couetousnes If for Protestants you had named Papists it had bin a true saying For as your owne man Coster confesseth Plarique Catholici feris ac bellumis moribus blasphemiae causam prabent infidelibus many Catholikes or Papists beeing of sauage and beastly manners and behauiour doe cause Infidels to blaspheme But more also of this in another place If the Centuriators and Calvine haue noted some errours in some of the fathers it is no more then Papists haue done The Rhemists renounceth Augustines exposition vpon the 16. of Matthew Bellarmine in his first booke de sancto beat and 6. chap. saith that Iustinus Epiphanius Ireneus and Oecumenius cannot be defended Againe Ambrose Hilarie and Nissen are reiected of him cap. 4. lib. 2. de rel To proceede he holdeth that Adam was not deceiued Lib. 3. de Amiss grat cap. 7. yet communis patrum sententia id videtur habere vt Adam fuerit seductus the fathers common opinion seemeth to be that Adam was seduced Hierome agreeth not with the fathers concerning the buriall of Adam Bell. lib. 3. de amiss grat cap. 12. Theodoret expoundeth some places of scripture as the Pelagians-doe Bellar. lib. 4. de amiss grat cap. 9. The fathers before Pelaguis did not accurately handle the doctrine of predestination Bellar. lib. 2. de grat lib. arb c. 11. Lastly not to be too tedious cap. 14. eiusdem lib. he saith that patres cum ad populum verba facerent ea dicebant quae vtiliora videbantur ad excitandos homines ad bona opera The fathers when they did speake to the people vttered those things which were most profitable to stirre vp the people to good workes For thy further satisfaction Christian Reader I desire thee but to read Bellarmines exposition of the Lords praier and tell me how the fathers doe agree euen in expounding that one praier Their diuersitie also in expounding this article He sitteth on the right hand of God is worthie to be considered Bellar. lib. 3. de Incar cap. 15. M. Doctour Humfrie his spech of that famous and reuerend Bishop Iewell beeing iniurious to himselfe is vttered in respect of his great paines and not to detract from the truth of his challenge if you can confute his booke set vpon it if you cannot neuer hereafter bragge of the fathers For indeede it is no small meanes to confirme the Protestants in their cause that his bookes haue not beene answered in so long a time you crie the fathers the fathers are on your sides and yet haue not satisfied M. Iewel his challenge in many yeares I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which condemne the fathers of errors hold a false religion But the Protestants condemne the fathers of errors Ergo. To this argument let Augustine answer Si divinarum scripturarum earum scilicet quae in Ecclesiae canonicae nominantur perspicua aliquid firmatur authoritate sine vlla dubitatione credendum est â—pist 112. alijs verò testibus vel testimonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi credere vel non credere liceat if any thing be confirmed by euident authoritie of those Scriptures which are called Canonicall in the Church we must beleeue it without any doubting but other witnesses or testimonies by which some thing to be beleeued is perswaded thou maist beleeue or not beleeue I might abound with his testimonies I will adioyne one other Neque quorumlibet disputationes quamvis catholicorum laudatorum hominum velut scripturas habere debemus epist 1â—1 vt nobis non liceat salva honorificentia quae illis debetur hominibus aliquid in corum scriptis improbare aut respondere We ought not to account any mens disputations although catholike and laudable men as the scriptures as if it were not lawfull for vs the honour which is due vnto them reserued to disalow and reiect something in their writings Picus Mirandula in his Apologie prooueth that in dictis sanctorum extra canonem bibliae non est infallibilis veritas in the sayings of Saints without the canon of the bible there is not infallible truth The Papists themselues refuse the fathers Pucichius saith Mihi non placet Augustini ea de re definitio Iâ—â—l 548. I like not S. Augustines determination of that point namely originall sinne Epiphanius is reiected for breaking images by D. Harding Cyprian is condemned by Duraeus because he teacheth that onely Christ is to be heard But that we may see all the fathers to be on your side M. Doctour produce I pray if you can their testimonies to prooue that the Pope cannot erre that he may depose Princes that he must summon Councells and that he is aboue the same or that the virgin Marie was not conceiued in original sinne I haue desired to see these points prooued by all the fathers if you can doe it you shall doe more then your owne men haue done By these new opinions we may gather that Poperie did beginne by degrees and hath encreased to this height These doctrines although they concerne the head of your church are so weakely prooued by the fathers that a man would imagine you doe not hold these
booke of his Confessions shall finde that he did beleeue the Scriptures for themselues In his 14. chap. of the booke cited by the Doctor he writeth thus Quid putas faciendum nisi vt eos relinquamus qui nos invitant certa cognoscere postea imperant vt incerta credamus eos sequamur qui nos invitant prius credere quod nondum valemus intueri vt ipsa side valentiore facti quod credimus intelligere mereamur non iam hominibus sed ipso Deo intrinsecus mentem nostram firmante atque illuminante what haue we to doe but to forsake them that inuite vs to know certaine things and afterwards command vs to beleeue vncertaine things and to follow thē which inuite vs first to beleeue that which yet we are not able to behold that beeing made stronger through faith we may attaine to vnderstand that we beleeue now not men but God himselfe confirming and lightning our minde inwardly The spirit of God therefore must cause vs to beleeue otherwise we shall wauer and stagger To conclude this point many borne in heresie and schisme haue bin mooued by heretikes to beleeue the Scriptures is heresie therfore equal to the scriptures nothing lesse The three Creedes we receiue because the doctrine is contained in the scriptures but you doe not receiue Athanasius his Creede for he maketh but two places vitam aeternam ignem aeternum Omnes homines resurgent cum corporibus suis reddituri sunt de factis preprijs rationem qui benè egerunt ibunt in vitam aeternam qui verò malè in ignem aeternum All men shall rise with their owne bodies and shall giue an account of their deedes and they which haue done well shall goe into life euerlasting they which haue done euill into euerlasting fire You teach that Infants vnbaptized shall be in a brimme of hell and not in the fire of hell Thus if you had bin wise M. Doctor you would haue bin silent concerning these Creeds If I should shew your contrarieties to the Apostles creed I should be ouerlong That the holy Ghost doth proceede from the Father and the Sonne Lib. 2. de Christ cap. 22. Bellarmine prooueth plentifully out of the Scriptures What an ignorant Doctor is this that cannot see this mysterie prooued in holy Scripture Touching the tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments what if they be not in Scriptures the heauenly doctrine signified by the words is contained in scriptures If these wordes were necessarie to saluation then men were damned before they were inuented which I thinke the Doctor will not grant for many beleeued the things although the names were not extant Augustine calleth the bookes of Tobie and other Canonical because they were read to edification for I hope you will not oppose his authoritie to so many Fathers as I haue before produced In the place by you cited he will haue those books which are receiued of all Churches preferred before those which some Churches receiue not hence it is manifest that he maketh not all of equall authoritie Lib. 2 con gaud cap. 23. Elswhere he will haue the bookes of Machabees read so it be non inutiliter sobriè not vnprofitably and soberly Why doth he giue this caution to these bookes if they were of like authoritie And in his booke de praed Sanct. c. 14. he confesseth when he did produce a testimonie out of the booke of Wisdome that the brethren did reiect it there he contendeth not much for it If it had bin Canonicall he should not haue so remissely pleaded for it Thus it appeareth why he calleth these books canonical Where you say that no heretike can charge the Church with adding or diminishing one iot from the Scriptures we must admire Gods prouidence and his loue towards his church he preserueth the Scriptures though men would take thē out of the world But if you meane that the church of Rome hath not altered the holy Scriptures you must know that the Papists hold the Hebrew and the Greeke text to be corrupt and haue established a Latin translation differing farre from the Hebrew and Greeke and is not this to alter the scriptures If I should shew the corruptions of that trāslation I should be very tedious I will name one in the 1. of the Hebr. it is said Christ hath purged our sinnes by himselfe these words by himselfe are cleane stricken out of their Rhemists translation what an intollerable corruption is this But I will conclude the matter in a syllogisme They which establish a corrupt translation alter the scriptures or at least a iot of the same But the Papist establish a corrupt translation Ergo. And indeede I cannot sufficiently wonder at them who establish their Latine translation eo nomine because it is Hieroms and yet will not allow his translations of the Psalmes what dealing with the Scriptures is this he hath corrected that translation of the Psalmes which they vse and yet they haue defied it You further demand why we should trust the Church of Rome rather in this then in other things I answer first that as I haue prooued we trust not the Church of Rome but the scriptures themselues secondly it is a ridiculous consequent We beleeue the church of Rome in this point ergo we must doe so in all other To make your follie manifest vnto you selfe M. D. you beleeue the church of England in some points will you doe so in all I would it were so That we haue had nothing to doe with the Bible for a thousand yeares and that we haue robbed the Church of many bookes are detestable vntruths But I pray you Syr were not the scriptures preserued in the Greeke church as well as in the Romish church did not the Iewes keepe the scriptures and yet to vse your phrase our Sauiour wrested thē out of their hands not as iust but as vniust possessours of them The Pharisies might haue vsed the same speech to our Sauiour Christ that the Doctor doth to vs. He hath three other questions in this chapter The first is how we relying onely vpon scripture can shew certainly which bookes be scripture and which not This question I haue at large answered in this chapter and therefore I will not repeat my answer Secondly he would know of the vnlearned Protestant how he knoweth the translations to be true I answer that it is not necessarie to know euery thing to be truly translated The spirit of God speaking in the scriptures certifieth the conscience of the vnlearned that the scriptures in the English tongue are the scriptures The third question it why we beleeue our owne iudgements rather the Luthers or Calvins I answer we beleeue their iudgements that bring best proofes out of Scriptures But M. Doctor because you haue posed vs with so many questions now I will pose you with one likewise Why doe you receiue your latin translation rather vpon this Popes authoritie