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A44111 An answer to several material passages in a book published some time since by W.P. entituled, A brief examination and state of liberty spiritual, both with respect to persons in their private capacity, and in their church-society and communion, &c. by J.H. Hogg, John, fl. 1675-1698. 1691 (1691) Wing H2368; ESTC R13730 50,925 60

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or difference that the first is but to prepare the latter to perfect and as the latter is the highest Administration the Leader being only here that cannot be removed into a Corner so he is in that Administration the substance of all Types Figures and Shadows and the fulfiller of every Addition for Righteousness sake to them that truly believe in him therefore in a Holy Reverence to the Divine Being we say the teaching of God by his Spirit immediately in our own Hearts must have the preference if ever we be truly perfected and yet there is so much Truth in what our Author hath said that when fairly stated we are content it should be as a Rule to measure the whole Difference by And therefore we offer either all that do speak in our Assemblies or Meetings speak from the Light Life and Spirit or all do not if all do so speak set it out fairly and prove it that we may be satisfied but if all do not so speak which we take for granted then you must give us a certain rule to know who do so speak and who do not or otherwise you must leave us to receive or refuse according to the best of our understanding Observe we say you must either give us a rule as above or you must leave us free for there doth not appear any mean betwixt those two that can be certain To make the matter short we take it for granted that you can give no such Rule therefore we conclude we are left free in those things of God which when they do come from God's holy Spirit immediately there is no greater Authority for are then as the Oracles of God 'T is true all should speak thus but all do not there 's the doubt and the like doubt is every where where the Truth is concerned if not give us an infallible Rule to know that the Church as referred to this or that Assembly is infallible this is absolutely necessary if we must not act according to our Understanding for no less than what is infallible can keep in the Truth We take it for granted that you can give no such Rule and therefore conclude we are every where free where the Truth is concerned to act according to the best of our Understanding in the fear of God for the Truth is but one in all 't is not more because many say it nor less because one says it therefore we are as much bound to receive the Truth from one as from many and no more to regard many than one in this case wherefore it follows as we are not bound to receive from one Man what he saith is Truth when it agrees not with our Understanding we are not to receive it from many for it must agree with the Understanding or unto such as receives it it cannot be Truth Again Truth is to be received for its own value and not for the value of those that bring it in for if it were we were in equal hazard to miss it on both hands on the one by an over-value of Persons or else how could the Leaders of the People have caused to have err'd as they have done And on the other by an undervaluing when God chuseth the foolish Things of this World to confound the wise as he often doth and what is this for but that no Flesh should glory in his Presence Therefore upon this foot as above we conclude that Conviction or at least Perswasion must be freely allowed to preceed Conformity as well to keep down that over Greatness and Dominion poor Man by the Enemy's subtilty is subject to aspire at as also to keep every one in mind that they must know the Truth for themselves for others can never know it for them nay to speak plainly and properly Truth can only be received for its own value or it can never be received so that we may safely conclude where Conviction and Perswasion are disallowed that Government ceaseth to be true and is so far from being the Government of Truth as that it wants the likeness of it Page the 6th he saith They that walk in the Light have Fellowship one with another 1 John 1. whence he saith 'T is easie to conclude that those that go out of Fellowship go out of the Light c. Answer Every saying or Position hath only one other saying or Position that stands against it if therefore what is brought as the Antithesis differ from the direct opposite sense the Work that follows or what is builded upon it cannot be true Now this Position that they that go out of Fellowship go out of the Light he brings as the true Antithesis to this Position of Scripture quoted 1 John 1. or he doth not so bring it if he doth not bring it as true he deceivs or abuses his Reader but if he do bring it as the true Antithesis he is mistaken for this is not that true Position that stands against this Scripture for if it was then what stands against this Position would directly be that Scripture at least in a true sense for opposites remain as fixt in their sense as the East doth from the West Therefore we need go no farther for a Proof of the Truth of the Work than to take that Position that stands against his for if it be that Scripture in a true sense the work is true but if it prove another thing then may we see the cunning that is in daubing as well as something of that ground of the false reasoning that is among the Children of Men. To try the matter his Position is that they that go out of Fellowship go out of the Light Now that saying that stands against this must be that they that keep in Fellowship abide in the Light this is not that Scripture 1 John 1. but another thing differing materially from it that Scripture is If we walk in the Light as God is in the Light then have we Fellowship one with another and the Blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all Sin Here the ground and cause of true Fellowship is a walking in the Light and the proof that the work is true is the witness in a Man 's own mind by the cleansing from all sin without this Fellowship is ineffectual but where this is such is safe let what will come and as this is the beginning and ground of Fellowship with God 't is the ground of Fellowship with those that is born of God but his Position that those that go out of Fellowship go out of the Light make Fellowship with Men for so it must be understood at last or 't is un-intelligible to be the ground of Fellowship with God or of walking in the Light as God is in the Light which is the same thing and as for the Proof that the work is true to wit the cleansing from all sin not a word of that should the witness in a Man's self been spoken on
be quiet let all concerned consider there is that to be done they yet cannot do that so in a sense of our Nothingness and Inability we may wait on him that 's able to do all things and in the mean time let us consider if it hath not been on this foot that all before us since the Apostacy have miscarried hasting God's work taking that to themselves God has not yet given to any visible Society if so we can only avoid that Rock by being more humble And therefore we desire such as do know what he means and take themselves of this Church to consider seriously in their own minds if they find themselves thus qualified to take the Government of Christ upon their Shoulders that so others may certainly depend on them in the things of God as infallible and if they do not thus find it then to consider if they certainly know who are thus qualified on whom not only themselves but others also may depend But if this be not known then whether they are still to suppose that there is some that are thus qualified and on that Supposition presumingly depend seeing where there wants Certainty there must want Truth This we commend to every ones serious Consideration for the good of their own Immortal Souls that they may not depend on Suppositions Conjectures or at best but on Probabilities but that all may be established on God's everlasting Truth manifested in their own Souls the Truth of all Shadows and that which fulfils all Additions for Righteousness sake But again what doth he drive at What doth he intend by placing Infallibility upon this Church as it relates to Men To us it must either be to set up the worship of God or not if not we cannot find 't is worth his while for if God's worship may be known without their being set up as infallible there can be but little if any thing at all in it for where God's worship is truly known such must love God with all their Hearts and who so loves God cannot avoid loving his Neighbour as himself and herein the whole Duty of Man seems included But if any think the worship of God cannot be set up but as direction comes from Men called a Church and that because nothing can set up the worship of God but what is infallible therefore we must accept the Church as infallible in this matter then we enquire if this be not to have two infallible Rules for one and the same thing for the Spirit of Truth is certainly one infallible Rule and if this Church be another then here 's two but as this is improper so they cannot both stand together However we may distinguish the one from the other the one is to be look'd for in the mind the other from Men called a Church without and so the one is inward the other outward but taking this in the best sense not as meer Men but as they think Men indewed with God's Spirit and thereby fitted for Government Now which of those must give way for both cannot stand in equal Authority together will any venture to say that the inward must give way for a few or the lesser number cannot be so such as many or the greater number however not as this Church that is set up as the Ground and Pillar of Truth then we desire such to consider if they do not justle Christ out of his Throne or at least set up a Tutor or Governour over the Spirit of Truth as some before us have done who begun well and will still in the general in a good measure acknowledge as we do to the Influences of God's holy Spirit but then they tell us the Scripture is the Rule and what difference is there to tell us the Church is the Rule the Heir while under Tutors and Governours differing nothing from a Servant though he be Lord of all We would by no means miss your meaning either you take your selves as infallible in the matter or not if not we say why do you impose upon your Brethren For if you 're not infallible certainly you must allow Conviction to preceed Conformity but if you think your selves infallible we tell you notwithstanding that you are to give way for we hope all will conclude our Saviour perfect and every way infallible and as good and as certain a Rule as any Church can be while he was in that Body prepared for him and if his Disciples could not be made perfect while he so abode with them we hope no Church will take more to themselves or think they can do more than he did Well then if you will seek his Will as he sought or did the Father's Will you must do as he did you must tell your Disciples or those that depend upon you that you must go away as a guide to them in the worship of God and a holy Conversation before they can be made perfect for it is certainly as expedient for you to let all know how far your Ministry can go as it was for him did he tell his Disciples it was expedient for him to go away or else the Comforter could not come the Spirit of Truth that only guide into all Truth 'T is as expedient we are sure for you to let all know that except Men come into their own minds and there wait to know the work and teaching of God for themselves they can never be made perfect by your Ministry We would not have you mistake us do we hereby make void the gifts of God given unto Men for the work of the Ministry No by no means but we would have all to know that the best of gifts for this end are but Additions and are not to be perpetuated as for ever for that which is but until hath a limit and ends in him that gave them and as all ought to look for Christ the hope of Glory to arise in their minds to fulfil every Addition so should all that have received any gift from God direct all to him in whom they all end otherwise such will be always learning but can never know that Truth that maketh free for though the light of a Candle is good 't is in the dark 't is in the Night and they that use it are sensible of its service yet in in its use wait for the Day to come for the Sun to arise where its service is swallowed up and truly fulfilled even so the light that comes from Men as it comes from God to them is good and serviceable by way of direction but its chief service is to those that are in the dark and therefore if the Son of Righteousness be not waited for through the use of it to rise upon their Souls they still remain in the dark notwithstanding all the teaching of Men let their Gifts and Abilities be what they will therefore send all to Christ and leave all with him seek his Honour truly and he will certainly seek yours
as Churches their Power being all alike If then some distinct Assembly it must be such an one to speak modestly as is superiour to all the rest according to Constitution and then what comes not in this way can have no shadow of any Authority for force or pressure of new things beyond satisfaction and freedom but such a Church cannot be but either by a civil Compact or by a divine Institution The first is not agreeable with the Truth for we cannot delegate or give power to any to make Rules or Laws to guide us or oblige us in spiritual Matters because we cannot be bound by any thing but the Truth and we must know it such before we can be bound by it therefore no such Compact or Agreement can be because liberty reserved and our power given away are inconsistent But if the latter that some one Assembly according to divine Institution is superiour to all the rest who can make circumstantial or shadowy things Terms of Communion 'T is necessary we should know that Assembly as well also that their Authority is divine if we must rest upon their Determinations without Trial in these matters c. But this we think we cannot know but by a divine way and that then must be either by a divine sense in our own minds or by the Authority of Truth which such bring to convince in both cases we conceive our Understanding is concerned in our Obedience and Duty but neither of those ways are known to us at present therefore till set forth to press Obedience under the notion of a divine Institution implies a kind of Contradiction being in effect to say we are to go out of the Truth to serve it for to go into uncertainty is not to serve the Truth if it be not to go out of the Truth directly thus by all our endeavour in searching into the matter we cannot find according to the Principles of truth that Conformity is to go before Conviction however not before Perswasion And yet we say for Peace sake and that nothing might be hindered that is good as also that true liberty may be preserved any Particular or any Assembly of the Community may offer what is new if they sincerely believe it good and serviceable without breach of Unity or at least of Communion but we cannot find to the bringing of new things in as matters of Faith or Terms of Communion that any Assembly have any more power than a particular Person and if mistaken we would very gladly be better informed and therefore till that be done we believe to press new things as matters of Faith or Terms of Communion to dissatisfaction and indeavouring to get such things strengthened by geting the majority of Voices either directly or indirectly is a going out of Truth to make Parties And this being done how easie is it for Men to be hurried into that Uncharity as not to dispence with those Dissenters which themselves have made without Characters of Indignity as publick marks of Dis-favour as though the thing was out of doubt Truth because the most are for it We shall endeavour to bring this long business to this short issue either such as believe the Spirit of Truth is the only guide into all Truth have liberty and freedom to judge of what they are to receive or they have not if they have not power and liberty to judge of what they are to receive and practice as matters of Faith c. then the power over them is uncountable and such must submit to their Determinations not because they know or are perswaded they are true but because those that have this power over them say they are true if this be not Usurpation exercising Lordship and Dominion as well as the bringing in blind Obedience and the begetting into an Implicite Faith we desire it may be fairly demonstrated to be according to Truth this cannot fairly be denied because we believe the Truth will stand the Test and be willing to come to the Tryal we know that which is false will not indeed because it cannot therefore we are fully perswaded where any is offended at this fair and free Inquiry for satisfaction 't is a sign if not an infallible one that such are faulty But on the other hand if we have liberty and freedom to judge of what we are to receive and practice as matter of Faith on terms of Communion that so our Religion and Duty may be according to our Understanding and Judgment then we may dissent as well as assent to things proposed or brought in according as things or occasion may fall out and this without fear or hazard of being proclaimed Delinquents for Nonconformity not only with respect to our private Sentiments or Opinions for that we might do in Turky or at Rome but with respect to those of the same Communion that would bring new things in to be observed otherwise we have neither true liberty nor freedom The Result is if there be a power over us that can bring in new things as matter of Faith and terms of Communion let it be fairly set forth and proved according to truth but if we have power and liberty to judge of what we are to receive then allow it freely that dissatisfaction and difference may come to an end To this we think can be but one Objection and that is that such as are dissatisfied are not conscientious which we confess is an old Objection but yet not more old than evil and never was to seek to abuse others by such as over-valued themselves 't is time therefore it were removed being as well unchristian uncharitable as unrighteous to criminate Perfons before any thing that 's evil or immoral can be justly proved against them and such practices have always been so far from making difference less as they made them greater for instead of restoring the Path of Peace and Truth to dwell in they always laid a sure foundation both for dissatisfaction and at last for division seeing every one that is truly conscientious have not far to go for an unerring Evidence to reverse so erronious a Judgment Those are some of those many things that we are dissatisfied with in his Book and we can say on a conscientious account either then from a true Understanding or from some misapprehension of the matter in both cases we conceive we should be relieved according to Truth And as our Author is great in the Reputation of Men we expect and also hope he will be great as a Christian too which is to submit unto the Truth where-ever it appears concerned by amending what is amiss whether it be with respect to himself or it be in our mis-understanding so far as lieth in his power and that he may proceed chearfully in this undertaking we are content to say we know but in part and indeed we think but in a little part too nor dare we think our selves so perfect but what we have writ may be objected against by such as will cavil on divers accounts Perhaps some may say it wants Method may be some may say there 's seeming Contradiction or 't is full of Tautologies nay perhaps some fault may be found as to the matter for we confess and think that the day will still grow more clear and then shadows will still be less However as we are sure our end is good there can be nothing done against us in the same mind that can hurt or be of evil Consequence for varieties of Understanding that stands in the fear of God and are managed in his love may be some cause that more light is afforded but however we make our advice to others in the first place a caution to our selves to be always ready to hear and mind what when and how the Lord is pleased to speak or appear for we do not already count our selves perfect yet one thing we do forget what is behind and presses hard after the Mark that stands before and think those that do not so seems not apt for the Kingdom of God for the mind of Christ must be sought for forward and not back to his former appearances and thus in part we know what we are but what we shall be we do not fully know but as the living hopes remain in the mind such truly wait for his appearing which as they cannot miss of his coming so shall they see him as he is and be purified by him that is pure for he was is and is to come Lastly we must confess we do believe our Author might be really troubled touching our Differences as Israel was about Ruben when he built his Altar but we believe also he did not inquire the matter out fully as they did which if he had we are fit to think we should have found as few Objections in this Book as in his other Writings or had he considered of what of this nature was as we were informed communicated to him some time since then perhaps had been no occasion for this however we hope shall be always as ready to confess unto a Truth as to oppose an Error In the mean time we conclude truly desiring the good of Mankind in general but especially of them that have in any measure believed or confessed that the Spirit of Truth or Light within that comes from God is the only guide into all Truth for those we are the more concerned not only because they are nearer to us by Profession but also because they have received more and so have more to give an account of therefore we do earnestly desire such may not sit down in a Notion or Profession of so holy a Principle and thereby take the name of the Lord in vain but by a true Travel in their own Hearts and Minds with God's holy Spirit may come to prove the Truth of what is professed then will they be established as Mount Sion indeed that never can be removed The END
the only guide into all Truth be discouraged so early and freedom of Speech taken away what may we think the next Age may do when we consider there was not yet any Christian Society but did at long run decline its Integrity in which danger we seem as well as any that did go before us And his own words to us seems to import as much for he brings the young convinced to be in most danger and for whom those requisite things seems mostly alledged to be serviceable is this because the Truth grows old that outward things are joyned with it to assist it nay sure then it must be because there seems a decrease and if the young convinced seems in this great danger whilst the old are living what must they do when they are gone beside if not an increase there will be a decrease Well since there is danger to go backward from the Truth in the Mind and Love of God in the Heart either into the World or into Form without Power and Life why should not liberty of Speech be allowed to all yea to such as think themselves the Church For if not suffered now because you think you are right they will not be allowed when there is need because they are wrong especially having your early Example to plead and thus may Truth 's Testimony suffer in the future by the cause which you now have given wherefore we think since you seem to make so much Povision for future time you ought in this more especially to have set Posterity a good President by your Moderation and Forbearance why may not you be cautioned to beware of Formality We would gladly have a satisfying reason for this while we consider all before us have failed ●●re and what can you say more in our day than others before us could in their time Have you received more then more is required Have you any thing but what you have received Must not the Roo● bear yo● and not you the Root Must particular Persons by our own Rule be humble and low and think others better than themselves and must not Churches as they relate to Assemb●●●● read in the same book for they are made of the same Men● Are they holier for being assembled or because the greater number then let them be more humble too We believe it is as much the duty of Assemblies as of Individuals for at best you know but in part and there is yet that to know which you do not and God is no more bound to many than he is to one as the Wind blows where it listeth so may God speak or appear by whom he pleases Pray let us know why Truth 's Testimonies may not be allowed and pass currant where the Life and Conversation is suitable is it because you are the greater number or because there is some among this greater number that is infallible and then have received the whole Counsel of God that nothing can be true but what such allow of and all must be so that they approve Not the first surely for Truth never prospered in the World while that was to be Truth concluded by the greater number besides 't is from hence that the Whore takes her power and strength so that it s not less than a scandal to speak of it in the case but if the latter we must confess 't is rare if true because without President or Example but on the contrary that many have pretended as high things and yet have been wrong is no news why then should not you fear that while you think you stand least you fall For we believe you cannot make it appear that any pretended such high things but they failed So that by all we can find you seem in more danger than safety and consequently more occasion to bear if not receive those Testimonies than reject them under the notion of loose Pleas. Perhaps you will say that those that use those Pleas are wrong and therefore the Testimonies are false and wrong as used against you but those that use them will tell you that they really concern you and that they are for your good to regard them and indeed are so for any thing that we can find that you have said or done but if some have been wrong must all be condemned for that Will that make you right We doubt not but you say they are wrong if so it must be manifest in their Lives and Conversation or not If manifest in their Lives and Conversations place your Judgment upon what is evil and spare not for there it will stand for we plead not for evil in any but for what is good but let that which is true live you know where the Heart believeth to Righteousness the Mouth must confess unto Salvation so where the Spirit of Truth is owned and known the guide into all Truth such may truly hold forth those Testimonies which belong unto it yea for those Testimonies of Truth ought to live as outward Monuments of it through all Generations But if no evil manifest in their Conversation nay perhaps instead of finding any evil there their Lives and Conversations may be as good as yours and such as adorns the Gospel against which Scripture saith there is no Law will you then make Laws against such as God has made none What will you do now Will you say they are still wrong though you have nothing against their Lives and Conversations nor yet against any principle or essential thing they hold and that because of that wrong those Testimonies of Truth which they use are wrong and false For he saith Page 9. That a saying may be false or true according to the subject or matter it is applied too but that we believe is a mistake for we think Truth 's Testimonies are not false because some may mis-apply them For instance this Testimony that the Spirit of Truth is guide into all Truth is always true however mis-applied to illustrate it in lower things as Meat Drink and Cloathing then what is more abused or mis-applied are they wrong or false because some abuse them No such matter no more do we think Truth 's Testimonies false because some abuse them Will you then abuse and discourage those Testimonies because you think those are wrong that use them though nothing that is immoral or evil in it self can be proved against them We think you cannot do this in the best sense but do evil that good may come of it and though that may be a Maxim in a false Church we believe 't is none in a true are they wrong still in your thought then 't is what you cannot right without doing wrong your selves Now if you cannot right a thing without doing wrong is it not your place to suffer Nay is it not your Duty And if the advice to the Church of Philadelphia was thought on in this case it might help to support However we know our Saviour overcame by suffering and