moode or figure It runnes word for word thus That Church which beginning with Christ and his Apostles hath visibly professed in all ages that faith which Christ and his Apostles taught without change in any point necessarie to salvation is that Church whose judgement is to bee followed and no private man must oppose his judgement against it There must bee one such Church in all ages But no such Protestants can be shewed This syllogisme no doubt will appeare as it is in forme very absurd to all the judicious who shall heare of it or reade it And yet the author thereof if we consider either the time when or the manner how he propounded it was therein farre more absurd and ridiculous For hee delivered it for an argument of such force and strength that it was not to be answered but at leasure and upon much studie and meditation Yea hee wrote it downe after that every point and tittle therein which requires any answer had beene by the present adversarie Master Walker there at that time abundantly answered to the full satisfaction of the hearers as they confessed For after Master Walker had fairely offered and earnestly urged that all controversies of religion which were betweene them might be tried first by the originall Scriptures secondly by the sincere writings of the ancient Fathers thirdly by disputation in strict syllogismes and all these were refused and rejected by the Iesuit as is before related They who were present wondering at him and some of them asking him whether he had any ground of his faith and religion besides his owne sense and will Mr. Fisher. He answered that he would bee judged by the Church For said hee when the Church hath judged no private man must oppose his judgement And this I made a Protestant Preacher confesse heretofore in a conference and that under his owne hand Mr. Walker Master Walker answered that the Church of God never judgeth as it is a true Church but by the Word of God in the holy Scriptures and as it is said of a just Iudge in a Common-wealth that hee is Lex loquens so it is said of every true and faithfull Church that it is Scriptura loquens The speaking Scripture Now against this judgement of the Church no private man must oppose his judgement that is his owne private opinion for all singular opinions of private men are vaine errors if they were true they could not bee singular seeing all truths necessarie to salvation taught in the Scriptures are common to all the faithfull Therefore the Protestant Preacher which you named did grant nothing but the truth from which you can picke no advantage to helpe you for you when you appeale to the judgement of the Church doe in many things differ from this truth First by the Church you understand no other Church but the Church of Rome that whore of Babylon your owne mother and your appealing to her to be the judge of your Religion is as if a Bastard should seeke to be judged by the whore his mother whether hee be lawfully begotten which he knowes shee will affirme and judge him to bee for her owne credit Secondly you rest on her judgement in the maine principles of Religion which are already most plainly and infallibly determined in the holy Scriptures and in which no Christian truly sanctified and regenerate being growne up to yeeres of discretion and well read in the Scriptures needeth the judgement of any other judge besides the Spirit of God enlightening his heart Thirdly when you speake of the judgement of the Church you understand such a judging power and authoritie as doth by determining points of faith and manners make them true and lawfull whereas the true Church of God hath no power to coine new Scriptures or to make articles of faith but onely the gift of revealing propounding and expounding of the word of God and the articles of Religion which Christ hath commended to the faithfull Fourthly you require in the true Church and attribute to your Church of Rome such properties as cannot bee found in any particular Church on earth viz. that it hath continued in the same place state and condition visibly and sensibly professing from the daies of Christ and his Apostles the same faith in all points necessarie to salvation whereas by consent of all stories and by manifest experience it is plaine that doctrines which by the Apostles were taught to the old Romane Christians as justification by faith without workes and by imputation of Christs righteousnesse Rom. 3. 4. 5. are now condemned by the present Romish Church And others which the Apostle did call Doctrines of Devils as forbidding to marrie and abstinence from meats c. 1 Tim. 4. 3. it urgeth as necessarie to bee beleeved and obeyed for salvation by some persons Mr. Fisher. I doe hold that the Church is the chiefe judge of all controversies in the matters of Religion and that all private persons must submit to it and not seeke to the Scriptures First because the Scriptures are translated out of the originall tongues before that private men can reade or understand them and the translations are not to be beleeved nor received but by the authoritie and approbation of the Church Secondly the Church gives such authoritie to the Scriptures that without it we are not bound to beleeve them nor receive them for Gods word according unto that excellent profession of Saint Augustine Non crederem Evangelio nisi me Ecclesiae moveret authoritas I would not beleeve the Gospell unlesse I were thereunto moved by the authoritie of the Church Mr. Walker And I answer that all this which you say makes no more for the Church of Rome than for any other particular Church for all other particular Churches have as much authoritie in this kinde yea more because shee is more impure and corrupt than any of them and hath least abilitie or sinceritie to judge of the truth And undoubtedly Saint Austen meant not the Church of Rome of which hee was no member but rather the Church of Millaine in which he was converted Secondly I say that Saint Austen in the place by you cited speakes by way of supposition and not by way of asseveration as the learned have well observed from the scope and circumstances of the place Thirdly it is true that over-weake Christians who are babes in Christ the Church in which they live and are baptized hath such authoritie as you speake of namely to translate the Scriptures and to commend them for the word of God and for truth and they are bound to give credit to it therein and not to oppose their owne fancies and conceits But when Christians are growne up in grace and knowledge and have felt by their owne experience the effects and worke of the Spirit in their soules wrought by reading and hearing of the holy Scriptures and when not onely by the inward testimonie of the Spirit testifying that they are the truth
are and have beene censured for Apocrypha and so you are in this more private in your opinion than we Secondly we Protestants build upon no other rock but that which is common to all the faithfull from the beginning even God himselfe who is prima veritas the first truth and upon his word of promise made in Christ the promised seed and we are founded on the Prophets and Apostles who are the common foundation both to all the fathers in the old Testament and to all Christians in the time of the Gospell But you build upon a new rocke even the Pope of Rome whom yee call the universall Bishop sitting in Peters chaire a foundation which all the faithfull forefathers before the comming of Christ were ignorant of and never heard or dreamed Neither did the first Christians in the primitive Church for divers hundred of yeeres after Christ acknowledge any such name or title but even Gregorie the Great a Bishop of Rome who lived 560. yeeres after Christ condemned it as a note of Antichrist and his forerunner as by his epistles is manifest Thirdly though divers sects of Anabaptists Familists and Enthusiasts men of fanaticall spirits have growne up like tares in the field of the reformed Churches who follow their owne private fancies imaginations and divers inspirations of Satan which have no warrant from the Scriptures but are contrary to the written word yet they are not of us we renounce their society and expell them out of our Churches and say of them as the Apostle did 1 Ioh. 2. 19. They went out from us but they were not of us And as for the interpretations of some obscure Scriptures which Luther Calvin and other learned men have lately found out and doe finde out daily which were not knowne of old nor commonly received we embrace them not for novelty nor because they are singular nor for the authoritie of the expositors themselves but because we finde them to be agreeable to the originall text and to other plaine places of the same Scriptures and to containe the old and common doctrine of Christ and his Apostles and Prophets which hath beene beleeved and embraced in all ages of all true Christians But a great number of the articles of the Romish religion concerning Image-worship Canonization of Saints Purgatorie Pardons Indulgences Transubstantiation Massing sacrificing for the dead and such like they are builded vpon private visions apparitions dreames imaginations and fancies of Friers and upon singular inspirations of Monks and other doating persons slavishly devoted to your superstitions so that the Popish spirit is indeed the same with the private fanaticall spirit of Anabaptists and Enthusiasts as plaine reason and experience doe shew Mr. Fisher. The Iesuit taking little pleasure in the hearing of these things made great shew of a desire to breake off and to be gone onely he put on a bold and impudent face to deride the opinion of Protestants concerning the gift of the spirit by which particular Christians are enabled to know and beleeve the Scriptures and to be fully perswaded and assured of the truth and true meaning of them And as for you saith he to Master Walker it is well for you that you have such an infallible spirit which doth enable you to discerne the word of God and doth more assure you of the truth thereof than the publike testimonie of the Church But pardon us if we hold it doubtfull seeing we have no more but your owne word for it Mr. Walker Yea and I will have your word professing the same of your selfe also or else I will make you appeare to all here present to be void of all true Christianitie First you shall see that all your scoffs shall not make me ashamed to professe and to proclaime the grace and gift which God hath given me for the knowledge of his word and how I come to know it by the worke of his spirit Secondly I will urge you upon your conscience to answer me whether you have experience and feeling of the same grace in you That which I can with a good conscience testifie of my selfe I hold to be no singular gift but a grace common to all true Christians and it is this First I confesse that I was borne of Christian parents and my father and mother who tenderly loved me and were also of me dearely beloved did teach me the first principles of religion from my infancie and did tell me that the holy Scriptures contained in that Bible which was read and expounded in our Church were the true word of God I being not able to judge of it my selfe beleeved it so to be upon their word and authoritie for the reverent respect and esteeme which I had of them Afterwards they caused me to frequent the Church and to heare that word read and expounded by learned Preachers and told me that I ought to beleeve what I heard out of it preached in the Church and so I did for I beleeved the Preachers publishing that word in so much that partly by their exhortations and partly out of a care which I had of my soules health and in a desire of Gods favour and blessings which were thereunto promised I did even from my youth give my minde to reade and learne the Scriptures Howsoever I must confesse that at the first and in my childish yeeres I did finde but little savour sweetnesse in the most profitable parts of the Scriptures such as Davids Psalmes Salomons Proverbs the bookes of the Prophets the Epistles of the Apostles and such like yea though I beleeved that they were Gods word yet by reason of my naturall corruption I did take more pleasure and delight in Poeticall fables and feigned histories which did feed my corruption and were a kinde of fuell to my sinfull lusts and vanities Neverthelesse whether it was mine owne conscience urging me or the spirit of God which moved me I cannot certainly tell but sure I am that still I did upon the testimonie and authoritie of my Parents and Teachers reverence the Scriptures as Gods word and force my selfe to reade them contrary to my rebellious nature and at length when I came to more ripe yeeres I found that the word which was most opposite and distastfull to my sinfuâ—l corruption did worke upon me most strongly and effectually which is an infallible token of Gods hand in it and a sure signe of the divine power and supernaturall excellencie thereof I felt the promises of the Gospell and the words of the Prophets and Apostles which before had little relish begin by Gods grace to be most sweet and comfortable in all crosses and afflictions and to be most profitable by strengthning me with the spirit of prayer and faith against temptations by mortifying my fleshly corruptions and by reforming my life so that I began to rejoyce in the Scriptures more than in any earthly treasures and did devote my selfe to the studie of them and now partly upon the
testimonie of Gods spirit witnessing inwardly with my spirit and partly upon the sense and experience which I have of the power of them in overcomming my naturall corruptions as it were against my will and partly upon that particular sight and knowledge which I have of the glory and divine Majestie shining in them I am so confident and assured that they are Gods most holy and infallible word that my conscience tels me I had rather forgoe all the world and my dearest bloud and bodily life than denie the truth of them Yea if the Church and Teachers which perswaded me first to receive them for Gods word should fall away by apostasie forsweare and denie them or any part of them or if any Angell from heaven should teach the contrary I would count them accursed as the Apostle enjoines me Gal. 1. 8. And now I can say to the Church and my Teachers as the Samaritans did to the woman who brought them to Christ Loe I have heretofore beleeved the Scriptures to be Gods word upon your testimonie and authoritie but now I see with mine owne eyes I have the inward testimonie of Gods spirit and feele by powerfull effects and by experience in my selfe that these Scriptures are Gods holy word and the power of God to salvation This I freely confesse is my knowledge and perswasion of Gods word which by these degrees I have attained unto And I daily have experience and evident signes of the same grace in all other Christians with whom I doe converse familiarly Now therefore in the second place I charge you before God and upon your conscience to answer directly and plainly before this people here present whether you have experience of the same grace in you and whether you have by these degrees oâ— any of them attained to this full assurance of knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures Mr. Fisher. What is that to you whether I have or have not Or what if I hold it needlesse to assume so much unto my selfe Mr. Walker It is very necessarie that you should doe either the one or the other And whether you confesse or denie you are taken and ensnared If you say that you have experience of this grace in you and of this gift and testimonie of the spirit then you are plainly convinced by your owne mouth of wilfull blasphemy against the Holy Ghost in that you have denied contradicted derided and scoffed at that worke of his in the Saints of God of which worke you have experience in your owne soule But if you confesse that you never felt this order and worke of grace in you and that your faith is nothing but an implicit beleeving of the Scriptures upon the Churches testimonie and authoritie without any sense or experience of the power and vertue thereof in your soule and that you blindly and desperatly cast your selfe on the Church without any particular discerning of the truth of the Scriptures or any inward testimonie of the spirit then it is certaine to say the best that you are yet a babe in Christianitie and Christ Iesus is not yet formed in you Yea I feare that you are worse than so for if after so many yeeres studie of Divinitie and so long continuance in the publike calling of a Priest and teacher of others you be found not onely destitute and void of this necessarie grace of a Christian but also an opposer and gainesayer of it and a scorner of such as professe it we cannot but deeme you a very Atheist and sonne of Belial in whom is verified that which S. Paul foretold of the slaves of Antichrist 2 Thess. 2. 12. viz. That God should send them strong delusions that they should beleeve lies and be damned not beleeving the truth but having pleasure in unrighteousnesse Also that which is testified by S. Iude of such reprobates who are of old ordained to condemnation viz. That they speake evill of those things which they know not and whatsoever things they know naturally as beasts which are without reason in those things they corrupt themselves and that they are corrupt trees and without fruit twise dead and plucked up by the roots and raging waves of the sea foaming out their owne shame and wandring starres to whom is reserved the blacknesse of darknesse for ever Mr. Fisher You are very sharpe and uncharitable in your judgement but it is no matter what you say neither will I argue more with you at this present for it is time for us to depart Mr. Walker I doe not judge you but by your owne mouth and by the infallible word of God and from henceforth I leave you to the judgement of God and to the censure of all here present who have heard you at this time onely thus much I must tell you that I doe manifestly discerne by your cariage speeches and behaviour your evill conscience and that you doe dolo malo wilfully oppose the truth and factiously cleave to the Romish religion For all here present have seene that you refuse and are afraid to be tried either by Scriptures or Fathers or disputation and reason or by the spirit of God which you would never doe so openly to your shame if your conscience did not tell you that they are all against you in the speciall articles of your religion wherein you dissent from us To this divers of them who were present gave their assent and professed that they were exceedingly deceived in their opinion of Fisher wondering that one so vaine and ridiculous as he shewed himselfe should dare to undertake the defence of his religion face to face against any learned man before any understanding hearers or that any should be either so foolish and blinde as to be seduced by him or so impudent and void of iudgement as to give him the name and report of a learned man or to number him among subtle disputants And one among the rest calling unto the Iesuit asked him very earnestly whether he were indeed that Fisher the Iesuit who disputed with Doctor White before the King which when he acknowledged Surely said the man I should never have beleeved it if any other had told me so for it could never have sunke into my minde that any of your name and report should be so absurd and ridiculous as you have here shewed your selfe For I see that neither the Originall Scriptures nor your owne translation of them nor the Fathers nor disputation and argument are of any account with you Doe you thinke that any man will be so foolish as to beleeve you who have no ground but your owne word and will But now I am glad that you have given me iust occasion as to abhorre your religion more than ever before and to esteeme you a vaine wrangler of no judgement so also to stop the mouth of some of my kinred who are of your religion and great admirers of your person and praisers of your learning by reporting and testifying unto them concerning
the paper and under the first assertion which hee had before granted viz. That they who teach doctrines contrarie to Gods word are not lawfull successors of the Apostles hee writes an ambiguous answer in these words I grant but Catholikes doe not so Mr. Walker Against this answer Master Walker excepted that it was an equivocation and might bee vnderstood two waies either thus I Fisher out of my private opinion or for some purpose grant this proposition to bee true but it is not granted by Catholikes generally or else thus I grant that they who teach doctrines contrarie to Gods word are not true successors of the Apostles but Catholikes doe not so teach If you meane the first way and in the first sense you doe but mocke us But if you speake in the latter sense your answer is more than needs and is a denying of an assumption which I have not yet expressed viz. That Catholikes doe teach doctrines contrarie to the Scriptures If by Catholikes you understand all such as hold the true Catholike faith I doe not neither will charge them with that which you denie before hand But if by Catholikes you understand Papists your conscience doth accuse you before hand and I will prove that supposed assumption which you denie to wit That the Papists teach doctrines contrarie to the Scriptures Mr. Fisher. I pray you be not so hastie let us come fairely and easily to another chiefe thing unto which I labour to bring you which will bee more materiall as you shall see presently then taking the paper hee writes a fourth proposition in these words This companie of Doctors and Pastors succeeding one another appointed to instruct people in all ages and to confirme them in faith could not performe their duties without being so knowne in the world that all men of all ages might haue recourse to them and might learne from them all truth neither could they be so secret that all stories should bee silent of the Doctors and doctrines taught by them in all ages Mr. Walker This proposition when Master Walker had read with an audible voice hee asked the Iesuit whether it were his purpose to dispute upon it which hee affirming hee answered that it was not a fit proposition to be disputed because it contained a great number of questions and equivocations and being urged by the Iesuit to shew his exceptions against it hee noted downe these particulars First that it is absurd to hold that all Pastors and Doctors lawfully succeeding the Apostles were knowne in the world to all men of all ages for there be many thousands of such Pastors who were knowne to none but to the men of the ages in which they lived Secondly it is an error to hold that all the men of the ages in which they lived had recourse unto them and learned of them the truth for it is sufficient that their owne flocks even the sheepe of Christ did know them and heare their voice Thirdly men may bee true Pastors lawfully succeeding the Apostles though they teach not all truth but onely the maine points of faith necessarie to salvation Fourthly such true Pastors may bee so secret that all stories may bee silent of them and of their teaching and doctrine Fifthly though their names and doctrines were recorded in the stories of those ages yet the stories now extant may be silent of them because some Popes by name Gregorie the 7. did corrupt and deface all sorts of records and writings both civill and ecclesiasticall which made against their forged primacie pride and corrupt doctrine as Aventine testifies lib. 5. Annal. Boiorum By which meanes many ecclesiasticall stories perished and others are corrupted untill this day Mr. Fisher. To the first of these exceptions the Iesuit yeelded and limited his long speech by adding immediatly after the word ages this clause in which they lived Concerning the second exception he asked this question Whether none but the sheepe of Christ did know the true Pastors and heare them It was answered That it was enough that they were knowne and heard by the sheepe of Christ To which Fisher replied That their persecutors must needs know them and heare of their doctrine or else how coula they actually persecute them and their doctrine Master Walker answered That their persecutors did not know Christ to be the Lord of life nor them to bee his seruants nor the truth of their doctrine for then they would not have persecuted them onely such as in persecuting them did sinne against the light of the holy Ghost if there were any such persecutors they did know them and their doctrine To the third exception Fisher first yeelded and inserted after these words to learne from them all truth this clause in all the maine points necessary to salvation and then he asked what he did understand by a maine point Master Walker answered That by a maine point he understood that which the infallible Scriptures of the old and new Testament doe teach to bee necessary to salvation and require that we should so beleeve it To the fourth and fifth exceptions he gave no answer but labouring to decline the mention of them takes the paper and writes downâ— a cavilling demand concerning the maine points necessary to salvation in these words Name what particular points these are or give a generall definition by which all sorts even of Protestants shall agree to be such Which when Master Walker had read he answered to this effect Mr. Walker Now Mr. Fisher you doe shew your selfe in your colours what you are indeed and what I have ever since I first knew you suspected you to be even a very idle wrangling Sophister unskilfull in the art of Logicke and ignorant in the rules of disputation First if you demand a generall definition of a maine point necessary to salvation that I have given already when I wrote downe that it was that which the infallible Scriptures doe teach to be necessary to salvation But your words are senslesse in themselues and I cannot tell what you meane by this clause a definition by which all sorts of Protestants shall agree to be such This speech savours of distraction For no sorts of Protestants doe goe about to make themselves to agree to be maine points of truth necessarie to salvation we desire only to know beleeve and teach such points Mr. Fisher. Fisher thus caught in his owne net had no other way to winde out himselfe but onely urged Master Walker to name all the particular points which the Scriptures doe teach for maine points necessarie to salvation To which Master Walker thus answered Mr. Walker Indeed I commend your wit and wise providence for if you could perswade me to undertake the naming of all such particular points you know it would require more time than till to morrow night and by this meanes you should escape without disputation and sleepe quietly in a whole skinne this night But you shall not so escape For I