the Apostles to their brethren and they paid it so do all the faithfull euery one to his brethren according to that measure of grace which God hath giuen them as being all members of the same bodie and therefore ech to helpe other Our English Chronicles haue a story of king Edward the Confessor and Godwin Earle of Kent that when they were sitting at table togither Harald the kinges cup-bearer the Earles sonne did stumble so with one foote that he was downe almost but recouering him selfe with the other foote he neither fell nor shed the drinke Whereat when the Earle smiled and said now one brother helped an other the king calling to mind his brother Alfreds death whom the Earle had slaine beheld him with a displeased countenance and said So might my brother also haue holpen me if thou hadst not beene In the which storie the cup-bearer who stumbled doth shew that one foote may strengthen an other and stay them both that they fall not the Earle who obserued therein a brothers duetie doth shewe that the younger may strengthen the elder or the elder the yoongger the king who remembred his owne estate by it doth shewe that the inferior may strengthen the superior yea the member the head By the proportion of which pointes a man of reason may see that an equall in all respectes may strengthen an equall that amongst vnequalles the left may strengthen the right and the right the left yea that an arme that a foote may strengthen the head and saue it perhaps from taking such a fall as would crush it in péeces Wherefore the charge of Peter to strengthen his brethren is no sufficient proofe that he was made head of the meanest amongst the faithfull much lesse of the Pastors whom he calleth his fellow-elders and least of al of the Apostles whose commission was the same with his to all nations Hart. It is true that others may strengthen their brethren as members of the same bodie but Christ commaundeth Peter to do it as their head Which may be gathered by the occasion whereon the wordes were spoken For when there arose a strife among the Apostles which of them should seeme to bee the greatest Christ said vnto them The kingesof the Gentiles do raigne ouer them but you not so and so forth teaching them that all desire and lust of raigning ought to bee farre from his ministers Yet least he should séeme thereby to haue forbidden withall or taken away all power of raigning from them he added those wordes spoken to Peter onely plainly declaring that he should be the greatest which was the matter where about they striued Rainoldes Cato said that he marueiled that a Sooth-sayer did not laugh when he saw a Sooth-sayer Me thinkes the professors of your diuinitie should laugh when they sée one an other For they proue the pointes of their Popish doctrine by as strong reasons as the Sooth sayers vsed to proue their diuinations by the liuer and the hart and other entralles of beastes But children are perswaded when they heare a ring of belles that the belles speake whatsoeuer they haue fansied at least like vnto it The Lord when the Apostles did striue about dominion and superioritie told them that none of them should be amongst the rest as kinges amongst the Gentiles yet least he should seeme withall to haue forbidden all dominion amongst them he appointed Peter to be their supreme head Thus saith the Soothsayer But what saith the Scripture In effect the cleane contrary For it sheweth that Christ hauing reproued them for striuing who should be the greatest and thirsting to be Lordes after the maner of earthly kinges taught them that an humbling of them selues to their brethren and a desire to do good by seruing ech of other must be the preeminence that they should seeke as he had done And as they had béene partakers of his troubles so had he appointed to them a kingdome also to make them partakers of that blisse and glory in which he should raigne him selfe as king of kinges they as counsellors about him sitting on twelue thrones to iudge the twelue tribes of Israel Now the former part of this spéech of Christ debarreth the Apostles all from that supremacie of our most holy Lord the Pope which you would put on Peter The later hath greater coulour for his dreame who saith that Christ remoued all lust of raigning ftom his ministers and not all power of raigning because it mentioneth a kingdome that Christ appointed for them But this importeth rather an equalitie of Peter with the rest of the Apostles sith the state is commō and thrones are giuen to thē al. Or if there might be euen so notwithstanding a superioritie as at a councell table there must néedes be in sitting one before an other yet is that nothing vnto that supremacie which you claime for Peter For to serue your purpose Christ should haue said that he would establish them all in seates of honour but Peter in a throne like the throne of Salomon and he should be their Pope and they should be his Cardinals to sit about the throne and be both Counsellors to him and iudges with him of all the earth Hart. It is a folly I see for me to reason with you if you be resolued to cast of so weightie reasons as trifles Rainoldes A folly indeede if you go about to make me estéeme of mole-hils as mountaines Hart. I go not about it but this that the reasons which are in truth as mountaines you will estéeme them so Rainoldes Then you must proue them so But if your mountaines trauell and be deliuered of a mouse you may not looke that I should admire it as a Giant Hart. Well Let vs leaue the occasion of Christes wordes and weigh the words in themselues For there are two things which Christ doth therein First in the common danger of all he strengthneth Peter onely Satan hath desired you to winow you as wheat but I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not Then least that strengthning should séeme to haue bene made for Peters owne sake alone or in respect of his personall faith he addeth And thou being conuerted strengthen thy brethen shewing that he is strengthned in the faith to the end he might strengthen the faith of all others as who should be afterward the Pastor of them all Rainoldes It were a néedlesse labour for me to spend words in these your two pointes if you had marked that which hath bene saide alreadie For I shewed that the former argueth his weaknesse the later openeth his duetie but neither proueth any preeminence at all saue a preeminence in frailtie The truth is that Christ in those wordes dooth thrée things whereof one is a byle and therefore you touch it not For in the danger of them all but greatest danger
no more to Popes then to other Bishops 2 The Pope may erre in doctrine 3 not only as a priuate man but as Pope 4 yea preach false doctrine also For 5 â—he may be a theefe a robber a woolfe 6 and erre not in person only but in office too as it is proued in euery part of his office 7 with aunswere to the replie made against the proofes for the defense of him therein 8 The succession of Popes hath bene preuailed against by the gates of hell 9 and when the gates of hell preuailed not against them their rocke did argue foundnesse of faith not the supremacie Pag. 277. The eighth Chapter The autoritie 1 of traditions and Fathers pretended to proue the Popes supremacie in vaine beside the scripture which is the onely rule of faith The Fathers 2 being heard with lawfull exceptions that may bee iustly taken against them 3 doo not proue it As it is shewed first in Fathers of the Church of Rome By the way 4 the name of Priest the Priestly sacrifice of Christians the Popish sacrifice of Masse-priestes the proofes brought for the Masse the substance and ceremonies of it are laid open And so it is declared that 5 nether the ancient Bishops of Rome them selues 6 nor any other Fathers doo proue the Popes supremacy Pag. 452. The ninth Chapter 1 The Church is the piller and ground of the truth The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell 2 the Councell of Nice 3 of Antioche of Sardica of Constantinople Mileuis Carthage Afrike 4 ofEphesus of Chalcedon ofConstantinople eftsoones and of Nice of Constance and of Basill with the iudgements of Vniuersities and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome condemning all the Popes supremacie Pag. 652. The tenth Chapter 1 Princes are supreme gouernours of their subiectes in thinges spirituall and temporall and so is the othe of their supremacie lawfull 2 The breaking of the conference off M. Hart refusing to proceede farther in it Pag. 669. The first Chapter 1 The occasion of the conference the circumstances and poyntes to be debated on 2 The ground of the first poynt touching the head of the Church Wherein how that title belongeth vnto Christ how it is giuen to the Pope and so what is meant by the Popes supremacie RAINOLDES You haue heard maister Hart from the Right honorable M. Secretarie Walsyngham the cause why he hath sent for me to come vnto you to conferre with you concerning matters of religion for the better informing of your conscience and iudgement In the which respect you signified vnto him your selfe to bee willing to conferre with any man so that you might be charitably and Christianly dealt withall Hart. In deede I did signifie so much to M. Secretarie neither am I vnwilling to do that I haue promised Howbeit I wish rather that if a conference be purposed the learned men of our side whome we haue many beyond sea might be sent for hether of riper yeares and sounder iudgement As for mée the condition of conference with you is somewhat vn-euen For I lie in prison and am adiudged to dye the closenesse of the one terror of the other doth dull a mans spirits and make him very vnfitte for study I neither am of great yeares nor euer was of great reading and yet of that which I haue read I haue forgotten much by reason of my long restraint I am destitute of bookes we are not permitted to haue any at all sauing the Bible onely You of the other side may haue bookes at will and you come fresh from the vniuersitie whereby you are the readier to vse them and alleage them These are great disaduantages for me to enter into conference with you Neuerthelesse I am content as I haue said to do it so that my wantes may be supplied with furniture of bookes such as I shall desire Rainoldes The learned men of your side it lyeth not in me to procure hether I would to God none of them had euer come from Rome with traiterous intente nay more then intent to moue rebellion against our Soueraine and arme the subiectes against the Prince It had fared better both with you and others who came from him that sent them Your imprisonment and daunger which hath hereon ensued I can more easily pittie then relieue I wish you were at libertie so that her highnes were satisfied whome you haue offended The condition of conference the which is offred you is not so vn-euen in deede as in shew For although I come fresh from the vniuersitie yet I come from one of those vniuersities wherin your selues report that few of vs do study and those few that study study but a few questions of this time onely and that so lightly that we be afeard to reason with common Catholikes or if we do reason the common sort of Catholikes are able to answere all our arguments and to say also more for vs then wee can say for our selues You of the other side haue béene brought vp in one of those Seminaries wherein all trueth is studied the maisters teach all trueth the schollers learne all truth the course of diuinitie which our students nay our Doctors and Readers can not tel almost what it meaneth is read ouer in foure years with so great exactnes that if a man follow his study diligently he may become a learned Diuine and take degree Yea besides the Lectures of positiue Diuinitie of Hebrue of controuersies of Cases of conscience the Lecture of Scholasticall Diuinitie alone wherein the whole bodie of perfit Theologie doth consist doth teach within the same foure yeares all the poyntes of Catholike faith in such sort that thereby the hearers come to vnderstand not only what is in the scriptures about a matter of faith but also whatsoeuer is in all the Tomes of Councels wrytings of Fathers volumes of Ecclesiastical histories or in any other Author worthie the reading Wherefore sith you haue heard this course of diuinitie and haue béene admitted to take degree therein vpon the hearing of it you may not alleage vnripenes of yeares or reading or iudgement especially against me before whome in time so long in place so incomparable you tooke degrée in diuinitie if yet our degrées may goe for degrées the Pope hauing depriued vs of them But you haue no bookes sauing the Bible onely You are it is likely the redier in that booke chiefly sith at Rhemes beside your priuat studie of it you were exercised in it dayly by reading ouer certaine Chapters wherein the hard places were all expounded the doubtes noted the controuersies which arise betwixt you and vs resolued the arguments which our side can bring vnto the contrarie perspicuously and fully answered So that with this armour you are the more strongly prepared against me who can be content to deale with you in conference by that booke alone as by the booke of all trueth Notwithstanding though
Peter not only my Lord but as Thomas did our Sauiour My Lord my God It is a desperate cause that wil admit no colour The Stewes of Rome haue found patrones and that which is worse then Stewes The heathens called Domitian Our Lord God the Emperor A Canoniste saith of the Pope Our Lord God the Pope Blasphemous spéeches both yet a quareller might alleadge in defense of them I haue sayde ye are Gods But the very heathens by the light of nature mislyked the one as insolent neither haue I read any Papiste no nor Iesuite that durst defend the other It was a common practise amongst the young students of our Uniuersities in the time of the Dunses and is yet amongst too many whom spottes of Dunsery haue stayned that if in disputation they were brought to an inconuenience were it neuer so absurd they would haue a distinction though voyde of braine and sense yet a distinction to mainteyne it If a man wil be peruerse it is no mastery to doe it But as a wise and learned man doth say of them that they are base wits which are so affected whereas ingenuous mindes natures wel geuen wil rather seeke howe true that is which they holde then how they may defend it making greater price of veritie then victorie so I may say yea much more in matters of religion of faith of life eternall a Christian witte and godly minde will search and weigh rather what should be saide truely then what may be said probably or colourably at the lest And I wish if it had béene the good will of God master Campian had had the grace in the Tower-conference to haue aimed at this marke rather in sinceritie to haue sought the truth then with shiftes and cauilles the mayntenance of his cause and credit But though he were froward and did shut his eyes against the beams of the light yet doe you not so for Gods sake master Hart in this conference of ours Be content to open your minde to hys grace who standeth at the dore knocketh and hearken to his voice while it is to day Beware of their example who could not beleeue or if they did beleeue durst not confes Christ because they loued the praise of men more then the praise of God and hunted after honor one of another not seking for that honor which commeth from the Lord alone Deny your selfe and your frends and all fleshly respectes geue the glory to the Highest Hart. I neither séeke for shiftes to darken the trueth nor loue the praise of men more then the praise of God It were a madnesse for a man to aduenture his life as we doe you see for the maintenance of error or of his own credit As for M. Campian I thinke of him as of my selfe I heard the disputations wherein he answered them who came to reason with him and I perceyued nothing in any of his answeres but synceritie and trueth Rainoldes My selfe was not present at the disputations but I haue read them written and that least you suspect the wryter as partiall by a fauourer of yours who was present as he saith at the whole action And I doe affyrme it in singlenesse of heart as before the Lord neither doe I doubt but al who haue the wisdome to discerne spirites wil see the same if they peruse them he sought in such sort to maintaine the credite of his cause or person as though he had set nothing more before his eyes then to perswade his proselytes that nothing could bee brought against him but he would shew it made for him I would not say so much vnlesse I knew it by his fruites For to passe ouer his often glosing against the text and facing out of places which pressed him most forcibly thinges alleadged out of the Councels of the Fathers of others which by the iudgementes of your own doctors haue that sense wherin we cyte them he by shifts and cauilles would turne their neckes cleane about and wreste them vnto his side which argued more witte then trueth and sophistrie then sinceritie But to leaue him to the Lords iudgemēt and come vnto your selfe you neither séeke for shiftes you say to darken the trueth nor loue the praise of men more then the praise of God I pray God your déedes be not as plaine to prooue you do it as the reason which you adde to proue you do it not is weake For what although it were a madnesse to doe it Many things are done which madde men scarce would doe and yet they that doe them doe think themselues well in their wittes as the Donatistes did who aduentured their liues in most desperate maner for the defence of their error and maintenance of theyr credite yea they offred themselues to the sword the fire the water séeking for death as for a treasure that they might die they thought Martyrs But whether you doe set the praise of men at that price I leaue it to your owne conscience That you seeke for shiftes the thing it self doth crie For your very answere in the defense of Leo touching vnitie of will not vnitie of substance on these words of his that Christ receiued Peter into the felowship of the indiuisible vnity is a shifte to shield him from a iust reproofe Let his owne Discourse speake and it wil graunt it For hauing saide before that Christ did place Peter as it were a certaine head to poure his giftes from him as it were into all the body to this poynt he knitteth these words by way of proofe So that if the proofe haue any kin with the thing proued the words must néedes import some preeminence in Peter aboue all the rest of the Disciples of Christ. But vnitie of wil wherein Christ doth pray that his Disciples may be one as he is one with his Father is common vnto all not peculiar to Peter as Christ himselfe doth shewe That plaister then of yours hath no vertue in it to salue the sore of Leo. Neither can you cure it indéed with any other For the vnitie which the Scriptures doe note in God and vs is of three sortes the first of persons in one nature the second of natures in one person the third of sundrie natures and persons in one qualitie In the first is One God In the second is One Christ In the third is One church The Lord receiued not Peter into the first vnitie wherein the father the sonne the holy Ghost are one God Not into the second wherein he himselfe consisting of two natures God and man is one Christ. Into the third wherein the Churche is one with Christ her head and the Churches members are one amōgst them selues he did receaue Peter but in societie with his brethren not without them in singularitie The multitude of the belieuers were of one hart
stubble so will the point of truth rippe vp the bowels of their errours So the Arians when they brought broken sentences of scripture in shew resembling somewhat their blasphemous doctrine against the sonne of God but indeede vnlike it they were ouerthrowne through the conference of scriptures by the Nicen councell and godly pastors of the church So the Pelagians the enimies of grace vnder the name of nature when they trifled vainely to shift the scriptures off which make against the frée-will of man for Gods fauour they were put to flight with plainer places of the scriptures by the Councels of Carthage of Mileuis of Orenge and chiefely by S. Austin So hath God conâ—ounded others of that rable will no doubt their complices if with the sword of the spirite which is the word of God wee ioine the shield of faith to quench the fyry dartes of Satan The Familie of loue shall feele it in time the Father of the Familie feared it and therefore he warned his children to beware of them who beare this weapon and haue skill to handle it of scripture-learned men And you who lay the Families synne to our charge as though we did foster that venemous vipers brood do ioine your selues to them and march into the field with them and strengthen their handes against vs. Of you they haue learned to take vp the name of Scripturemen by way of scoffe and vse it as a contumelie You teach them that the diligent yea the most diligent coÌ„ference of scriptures is the path of heretikes to most damnable errours You perswade them that the fountaines of the Greeke and Hebrue text are neither pure nor greatly néedfull You tell them that to expound the scripture by scripture is good and it is fruitfull to confer places to obserue the wordes and circumstances of the text but there are manye daungers and difficulties in it the text is not alwaies knitte and coherent to it selfe the very order of speaking is oftentimes abrupt sometimes preposterous altogither there are sundry hyperbata and anantapodota in S. Paule one word yea in one sentence hath sundry significations places may seeme like one to an other that are vnlike and contrariwise and many mo such inconueniences enough to breake the hart of a weak Christian. In the which dealing you do band your selues with the ten spies who when they should haue encouraged the people of Israell to enter into the land of promise they tolde them that the land certainly is good and floweth with milke and hony but the people dwelling in it is strong and the cities walled exceeding great and the sonnes of Anak Giants be there The Amalekites dwel in the south couÌ„trie the Hitthites and Iebusites and Amorites dwell in the mountaines the Cananites dwell by the sea and by the coast of Iorden The Lord sware in his wrath both to these spies and to the people who beléeued them that they should not enter into his rest At you and your men I maruaile M. Hart that whose fact you folow you tremble not at their end As for vs although we were but two against your ten and all the people would rather beleeue you then vs yet we will follow them who were of an other spirite Caleb and Iosua and with them will wee say to the whole assembly of the children of God The land through the which we haue gone to search it is an excellent good land If the Lord take delight in vs he will bring vs into this land and giue it vs euen a land that floweth with milke and honie Onely rebell yee not against the Lorde neither feare yee the people of the land for they are bread for vs. In deede the holy scripture is bread for our soules and the word of God is the foode of life If the Lord take delight in vs he will bring vs vnto it and giue it vs. Let vs not rebell against him nor feare the hardnes of it We must search the scriptures and pray to him for wisedome and hee will open them to vs for he hath promised and make vs learned in them Hart. We acknowledge with you that the meanes you mention namely to search the scriptures and to pray to God for wisedome and knowledge are good and godlie meanes whereby we may the sooner come to vnderstand them or rather be prepared thereto But such as neuerthelesse are not still effectuall Rainoldes They are still effectuall if men pray as they should and search them as they ought in the spirit of fayth and modestie Hart. True in that measure which is fit for euerie mans vocation and duetie some to exhort and comfort priuately some publikely to teach the church But after you haue saide all that you can we shall neuer grow to any ende and issue if we folow this way For if you alleage the scripture against me and I against you if I expound it by conference of this place and you of that if in your opinion one sentence be plaine and in mine an other in mine our meaning right and in yours the contrarie what ende can our controuersies haue without a iudge And if you yéeld to a iudge who fitter for it then the Pope Rainoldes Who but Christ our Sauiour And they which vnder him haue it committed to them euen the Church of Christ Hart. The Church Nay you mentioned the godlie before and spake as if they should trie the truth from errour by conference of the scriptures Which is your right kinde of triall and iudgement But you are ashamed of it now belike as in truth you may be For you shall finde many taylers and coblers more godly then sundrie more learned then they Yet I trust you will not repaire for shreddes and cloutes to any shop of theirs Rainoldes Yet the shreddes and cloutes of taylors and coblers may haue greater knowledge perhaps and better iudgement of the sense of scriptures then the scarlet gownes of learneder men then they For the learned Pharisees who condemned the people as ignorant of the law did not iudge the doctrine of Christ to be true nay they reiected it as false with search and see But the men of Beroea some of whom by likelihood were taylers or coblers or at least common artificers as meane as they receiued it with all readinesse vpon the search of the scriptures beleeued it Howbeit when I mentioned that iudgement of the godlie I meant the godlie learned Wherefore you néeded not to speake of shreddes and cloutes but that you were loth perhaps to léese this iest Chiefly sith I shewed thereupon withall that for the triall of controuersies by scripture the toongs in which the scripture is written must be knowne namely Gréeke and Hebrue The which shreddes and cloutes neither many taylers and coblers with vs neither many Cardinalles and Popes with you
I spake before fiftly the first charge of feeding the lambes the last of the shéepe are vttered with the Gréeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is feede the second of the shéepe hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is rule to shew that the lambes euen lay-men as I said are onely to be fedde but the sheepe I meane Bishops and Pastors are both to be fedde and to be ruled of Peter Sixtly the worde to feede hath a great force and signifieth a power most full and absolute as the which implieth all other actions of ecclesiasticall regiment For they are all directed to the food of soules There are obserued more such notes to like effect but either not so pithie and sound as these are or treated of alreadie Wherefore I content my selfe with these sixe Which if you lay togither and marke what may be saide in seuerall for each of them you haue inough to proue a great worthines of Peter in any mans iudgement in ours a supremacy Rainoldes That which is written in the Prouerbes of Salomon Hee that wringeth his nose causeth blood to come out may be truely saide of the proofes which you presse out of these circumstances The most pithie of them if any of them haue pith are they which touch the matter the question of loue required the charge enioyned of feeding and each of them repeated thrise Which all in verie truth as Christ did vse them to Peter were rather a stay of his weakenesse then a marke of his worthinesse much lesse a proofe of his supremacy For Peter had pretended greater loue to Christ then had the rest of the Apostles In so much that when Christ had told them of their frailtie the night before his passion All ye wil be offended at me this night for it is written I will smite the shepheard and the sheepe shal be scattered Peter answering said vnto him though al should be offended at thee yet will I neuer be offended Whereto when Christ replied verily I say vnto thee this night before the cocke crow thou wilt denie me thrise Peter answered him againe though I should dye with thee yet will I not denie thee This promise as it was made by all the Apostles but chiefely by Peter so was it broken by them all but chiefely by him For they did all forsake Christ Peter did not only forsake him but forsweare him too Wherefore when our Sauiour after his resurrection would gather them togither to confirme them from their feare and giue them power to preach the Gospell to all Nations he that in comforting them all before his passion remembred Peter chiefely as néeding it most but I haue praied for thee did then in sending for them to méete him in Galile remember Peter namely by the voice of his Angell saying to the women tell his disciples and Peter that he wil go before you into Galile Peter a disciple yet named beside the disciples as who might thinke him selfe not worthy of the name of a disciple that had denied his Maister thrise Now when they were come to him into Galile and had receiued common both comfort and commission to execute the charge whereto they were chosen Christ admonished Peter particularly of his duetie and moued him beside the rest to do it faithfully as he particularly before had betraied it and had behaued him selfe most fearefully aboue the rest To encourage him therefore with assuring his conscience of the forgiuenes of his sinne and strengtheÌ„ him to constancie that he offend no more sâ— Christ demaundeth of him whether he loue him and thereupon chargeth him to feede his lambes and sheepe In demaunding of him doost thou loue me more then these first he toucheth his faulte who had professed more then these but had performed lesse then these Then he sheweth that it is pardoned For hee who loueth more to him more is forgiueÌ„ his greater loue is a token of it In charging him to feede his lambes and his sheepe he sharpneth his care that now he be faithfull and firme in following Christ though he shall come to daunger yea to death therby Both which the demaund and charge are thrise repeated the demaund that Peter by his threefold answere may counteruaile his threefold denial of Christ the charge because that nailes the oftner they are strooken the déeper they do pearce To write the same to Christians it greeueth not our Apostle it is a safe thing for vs. And although the truth of this exposition be very apparant by conference of Scriptures yet that you may take it with the better appetite who loue not to eate meate without this sauce you may know that I finde it for the chiefest pointes which touch the matter néerest in Cyril Austin Ambrose and other auncient Fathers Wherefore your pithiest notes out of the circumstances of the text haue colour of some proofe for Peters infirmitie but nought for his Supremacie As for the other three which you picke out of the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and to feede they haue no pith at all they are as bones without marrow If this be the fruit of the studie of the toongs renued in your Seminaries that by shew thereof you may out face the Protestantes who by helpe therof haue ridde your filth out of the church then your tongues will proue as good as the miracles which Iannes wrought and Iambres to harden Pharaos hart by doing like as Moses did You cast vs in the téeth with a kingdome of Grammarians but you would raise a Popedome of theÌ„ And as Erasmus saith that Schoolemen speaking barbarously saide it was not meete for the maiestie of diuinitie that it should be bound to keepe the lawes of Grammarians so the Popedome of Grammarians dealing too too Pope-like in expounding of wordes as Popes do full oft in dispensing with thinges will not haue them bound to the Grammaticall sense wherein their authors vse them But if we may obtaine that iustice be ministred according to the ciuill lawes of our kingdome then shall the poore wordes which your Popedome forceth to speake for the Papacye that which they neuer meant be rescued from that iniurie For the Scripture sheweth that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signyfyeth as feruent loue as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in deede the verye same chyefeâ—y in S. Iohn who declaring the perfit and entire loue of God towardes Christ of Christ towardes him one where expresseth it by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 other wher by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yea by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more oft then by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So that if the wordes had any difference in sense it would be verie likely that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is rather the more significant of the two sith it is vsed also commonly to note the loue which the Lord doth beare towardes vs and we should beare one to an other and
at Ierusalem at Antioche at Ephesus at Rome that from the mother cities as they were called religiō might be spread abroad vnto the daughters Now because this residence in the mother-cities was afterward supplied by the Bishops of them therefore the Fathers are wont often-times to call the Apostles Bishops of those cities wherin they did abide most Which they might the rather for that the word in their spéech betokeneth in a generall meaning any charge ouersight of others in so much that the scripture applieth it to the ministery of the Apostles also And in this sort it seemeth to be said as by Cyprian that a Bishop was to be ordeined in the roome of Iudas so by Ierome that Peter was Bishop of Antioch by Chrysostom that Iames was Bishop of Ierusalē Though whither it wer or no yet that which I spake in defense of Chrysostō is cléered by himself frō your reproch of a shift For he saith that Iames was Bishop as they say Which words as they say import that he spake it on the words of others most likely of Clemēs frō whom Eusebius fetcheth it But if notwithstanding you reply that Chrysostom allowed that they say and supposed Iames to be a Bishop properly then his words haue so much the greater importance against your supremacy séeing that they giue the principalitie to Iames in his owne dioces and that aboue Peter Howbeit I will not take this aduantage because I know that neither Peter nor Iames gaue the definitiue sentence but when they had spoken their mindes of the matter the Councell did define it and decrée it with common iudgement Hart. They did it with common iudgement I deny not But Theodoret sheweth that Peter as a Prince had a great prerogatiue therein aboue the rest yea gaue definitiue sentence to which the rest consented and as it were subscribed For he in an epistle which he wrote to Leo affirmeth that Paul did runne to great Peter to bring a resolution from him vnto them who contended at Antioche about the obseruation of the lawe of Moses Rainoldes You may cite if you list S. Isidore too for an other speciall prerogatiue of Peter as good as this and grounded likewise on the Actes which he alleageth to proue it to wit that the name of Christians arose at Antioche first through the preaching of Peter For though hee bée more direct against the scripture which sheweth that the name of Christians arose vpon the preaching not of Peter but of Paul and Barnabas yet is Theodoret direct against it too by giuing as proper peculiar to Peter that which was cōmon to the Apostles and Elders whose resolution he was sent for And as Isidore séemeth to haue ouershot him selfe by flip of memorie on too great a fansie perhaps towardes Peter in like sort Theodoret séeking to get the fauour of Leo bishop of Rome whose help he stode in neede of did serue his owne cause in saying that Paul ranne to great Peter that so he might run much more to great Leo. Which words to haue issued out from that humor his commentaries on the Scriptures where he sought the trueth and folowed the text shewe For therein he saith of Barnabas and Paul that they ran not to great Peter but to the great Apostles and had a resolution from them of the question about the keping of the law Howbeit if Theodorets words vnto Leo suffered no exceptiō the most were that Peter pronounced the definitiue sentence as President not gaue it as Prince But the Scripture it selfe by the rule whereof his wordes must be tryed maketh no more for Peters Presidentshippe then for Iames and whosoeuer were President it sheweth that neither Iames nor Peter but the Councel gaue the definitiue sentence So well it proueth that which you vndertooke to proue concerning Peter that he had as ful power in the assemblies of the Apostles as the Prince hath in a parlament yea or the pope in a Councell Harte It proueth that wel-inough though not to you chiefly if other places thereof be waied withall For the singular power of Peter is declared also by S. Paul in that he saith to the Galatians Then after three yeares I came to Ierusalem to see Peter and taried with him fifteene dayes Rainoldes The singular power of Peter In which words By what reason Because hee went to Ierusalem to see him Or because he went after three yeares Or because hee stayed with him fifteene dayes Hart. The reason consisteth in that which Paule did the cause for which he did it For he went to Ierusalē to see Peter Why but to do him honour as Ierom saith in his Commentaries and in an epistle to Austin Peter was saith he of so great authoritie that Paule wrote Then after three yeares and so forth And Chrysostome Because Peter saith he was the mouth of the Apostles the chiefe and top of the company therefore Paule went vp to see him aboue the rest Because it was meet saith Ambrose that he should desire to see Peter vnto whom our Sauiour had committed the charge of Churches Which also Tertullian affirmeth that he did of duetie and right Nor otherwise Theodoret he gaue saith he that honour to the prince of the Apostles which it was fitte hee should Hence it is that S. Gregory doubteth not to say that Paule the Apostle was the yonger brother And S. Austin an Apostle made after Peter who saith moreouer that the primacie of the Apostles is conspicuous and preeminent with excellent grace in Peter Rainoldes You bring in witnesses not necessarie to proue a thing not denied For that Paule was as Apostle in time after Peter and so his yonger brother as Gregory Austin and Ambrose say that he went to see Peter for honor and reuerence which he bare to him as it is in Ierom Chrysostome and Theodoret that he did this of duetie and right what right and duetie of the same faith and preaching of the gospell to shew his concord with him which is the meaning of Tertullian all this will I graunt you the scriptures teach as much what néede the Fathers to proue it Hart. Will you graunt all that which I alleaged out of the Fathers then will you grant that Protestants are in an error and the truth is ours For they auouch plainely the primacie of Peter and call him the mouth the prince the toppe of the Apostles Rainoldes Alas you were agreed me thought to go through with the scripture first afterward come to the Fathers I wisse they will giue you small cause of triumphing ouer the Protestants when you shall bring their forces out into the field and see with whom they ioine with you or with vs. But of the rest then Now I graunt you so much as doth concerne the point for
God by inspiration and is the word of God Wherefore if you will take the golde of Vincentius you must grant that scripture alone is sufficient to trie the truth from errour and to mainteine the Catholike faith against heresie Hart. You doo not deale well in misreporting so the words of Vincentius For he setteth downe two meanes by the which we must fense our faith against the guiles of heretikes eschue their snares first by the authoritie saith he of the scripture then by the tradition of the catholike Church You leaue out altogither that which he saith of tradition and handle him in such sort as though he had spoken for the scripture onely Rainoldes It is not your purpose I hope to beguile mée by the colour of his wordes It may be that your selfe are beguiled in them For he by the traditiō of the catholike church meant the true and right exposition of the scripture made by faithfull pastors and teachers of the church as his owne words immediately shew And this I made mention of in that I said that scripture is sufficient alone against heretikes if it be taken in the right sense the catholike sense hee calleth it You séeme to imagine that he meant by the worde tradition vnwritten verities as they haue bin termed or as you terme them now traditions which the Trent-Councell dooth account as much of as of scriptures and coupleth them togither to make a sufficient perfit rule of truth as though that onely scriptures were insufficient for it Which errour was so far from the minde of Vincentius that he saith expresly that he dooth not adde the traditiō of the Church to the authoritie of the scriptures as though that the scriptures were not thēselues alone sufficient for all thinges yea more then sufficient but to shew that because heretikes doo wrest and misse-expound the scriptures therefore we must learne their right sense and meaning deliuered to the godly by the ministery of the Church In which consideration as S. Paule writeth that he did deliuer according to the scriptures the things which he taught and therevpon nameth his doctrine traditions as you would say things deliuered so Vincentius mentioneth both the Churches tradition to note the ministerie of the Church deliuering the sense of scriptures and the Churches traditions to signifie the rules of faith according whereunto the scriptures are expounded as I haue shewed by scriptures Wherefore the wordes that your Vincentius speaketh touching the tradition and traditions of the Church do ioine hands with that which I did deliuer of the truth in pointes of faith to be tried by the scripture only Hart. You may not cary so the wordes of Vincentius away in a cloude For though he may séeme to haue meant in generall by the tradition of the Church the expounding of scriptures according to the rule of their right and Catholike sense which the Pastors of the Church deliuer yet comming to particulars he frameth that rule not out of the scriptures but out of the opinions which the Church holdeth in matters of religion For he asketh him selfe when heretikes pretend scriptures what shall the Catholikes doo How shall they discerne the truth from falshood in the scriptures Whereto he maketh answere that they must take the scriptures in the sense of the Church and therein they must folow vniuersalitie antiquitie consent By the which thréefold meanes to trie the truth he instructeth vs that we must hold that which the church of our time doth hold through all the world vniuersally If a part of Christendome diuide and cut it selfe from the faith of the whole then are we bound to folow the whole and not the part If the whole in our time be stained with any error then must we haue respect to the former time and cleaue to antiquitie If all in antiquity agreed not about it then looke too consent as what a generalll Councell did decree therof or if no such decree be what all the Fathers thought or if not all what the most euen they who continued in the faith and felowship of the Catholike Church And whatsoeuer we find that not one or two but all with one consent haue held written taught plainely commonly continually let vs be assured that we must hold also that without all doubt Thus Vincentius sheweth how he would haue the truth to be tried by the church if the church be soūd by the vniuersalitie of our own time if that be corrupt by the antiquitie of the former time if that be at variance by the consent of all or most of the Fathers Wherfore if you will stand vnto his iudgement to which you giue countenance as though you liked it you must not call the tryall of truth in religion to the scriptures onely but to the consent of the Fathers rather Rainoldes I liked his iudgement in the generall point touching the sufficiencie and perfitnes of scriptures which I know you like not though you make greater semblaunce of liking him then I. If in the particulars I mislike somewhat let the blame be laid vpon the blame-worthy not me who stand to that which he hath spoken well but him who falleth from it For laying his foundation as it were on a rocke he buildeth vp his house beside it on the sand That scripture is sufficient alone against heretikes so that it be taken in the right sense expounded by the rules of the Catholike faith this hath hée well auouched as on the rocke of Gods word But that the rules of faith and sense of the scripture must be tried and iudged by the consent antiquitie and vniuersalitie of the Church this hath he added not so well as on the sand of mens opinions The difference of the pointes may be perceiued by S. Austin who ioining in the former of them with Vincentius doth leaue him in the later For Austin as he setteth the ground of religion in the right sense and Catholike meaning of the scripture so teacheth he that this must be knowne and tried by the scripture it selfe the infallible rule of truth not by the fickle minds of mē And to haue taught hereof as Austin doth it had agreed best with the foundation of Vincentius which maketh the rule of scriptures alone sufficient for all thinges But because the weaker and ruder sort of Christians haue not skill to know the right exposition of scripture from the wrong therefore he tempering him selfe to their infirmitie doth giue them outward sensible markes to know it by Wherein he dealeth with them as if a Philosopher hauing saide that a man is areasonable creature should because his scholers cannot discerne of reason whereof the shew is such in many brute beastes that some haue thought them reasonable describe him more plainely by outward markes and accidents as namely that he hath two feete and no
purposes But you may not be touched with any such suspiciō Why Because the doctrines which you professe are not olde and ample heresies you say no not heresies ours are so not yours Whether in opinions of faith and religion which are in controuersie betwéene vs you or we doo hold heresies that is the point in question Your or mine yea or nay is no sufficient proofe of either But of which soeuer it shall appeare by conference that they are repugnant to the holy scriptures let them be iudged heresies and the men heretikes who stubburnly mainteine them Thus much you can not choose but grant that your opinions are olde and spread abroad for you claime antiquitie vniuersalitie whereof you say that our opinions haue neither It is more likely therefore by Vincentius that you who by long continuance of time haue had long occasion to steale away the truth should corrupt the Fathers then wée who haue not had it And in very truth as the worship of Images the greatest abomination that first preuailed in Poperie was confirmed by writings very vncertaine and fabulous yea by dreames of women and visions of Deuils in the second Nicen Councell as the thing it selfe and great Clerkes of your owne testifie so the rest of your errours which ouerflowed Christendome in darkenes of superstition haue bene most authorised by forged déedes and bastard writings begotten by some varlets and fathered on the Doctors The Schoolemen and Canonists whose handes were chiefe in this iniquitie did beare the whole sway for many yeares togither in Uniuersities and Churches The Doctors Fathers were pretended much but more pretended then regarded and their bookes corrupted what through ignorance of scriueners who copied them out before the vse of printing what through impudence of forgers who coined counterfeites in their names Now when they lay thus distressed and diseased in the dust of Libraries Erasmus a man of excellent iudgement and no lesse industrious then learned and wittie did enterprise first to cure them and brought them foorth into the light In the workes of S. Ierome which were most of all depraued aboue others chiefly the former tomes he did what he could both to clense them from blemishes and to lighten them with his notes Hee professed that his coniectures in restoring of places had not satisfied himselfe alwaies He promised that if any man should restore them better hee would both embrace his trauaile very gladly and reioyce at the publike profit What sparkle of thankfulnes but I let go thankfulnes what sparkle of ingenuitie was there and good nature in Marian Victorius who requiteth such a worke so carefully attempted so painfully performed so modestly excused with the tauntes and contumelies of erring of lying of craftines of ignorance of heresie of impietie Aristotle writeth of them who begin a thing in pointes of learning that although they seeme to do lesse then others who receiue it of them and after adde thereto yet they do more in deed because the beginning of euery thing is hardest and it is easie to adde Wherevpon he craueth of such as he hath sought to benefite by his labour thankes for that he found pardon for that hee missed If Victorius haue profited no better in the schoole of Christ let him goe to Aristotle and learne first to thinke more humbly of him selfe afterward to deale more modestly with others And you who like of him because hee findeth fault with the dooings of Erasmus as a shoomaker did with the picture of Apelles for missing in a shoo-latchet may know that good and learned men among your selues haue found fault with him for being bold beyond the shoo That dooth Molanus witnes one of your chiefest Doctors and Censors of bookes who in S. Ieromes workes set foorth at Anwerpe hath therefore circumcised the lippes of Victorius Hart. Molanus hath reproued and corrected him for vnciuill spéeches against the person of Erasmus as wherein he past the boundes of Christian modestie not for ouersight in that hée laid errours to Erasmus charge Though the speciall point for which we blame Erasmus is not this so much of errours in S. Ierome His censures on S. Austin are misliked most in that he reiecteth sundry bookes as counterfeit which Torrensis proueth to bee S. Austins owne Whereof the importance and danger is the greater because some will haue nothing taken for S. Austins but what Erasmus hath allowed Rainoldes Molanus did couer the sinnes of Victorius whē he found no other fault with his notes but of vnciuill spéeches If fauour to the man and fansie to the cause had not made him partiall he might haue said of him that as he past the bounds of Christian modestie in railing at Erasmus person so had he past the boundes of Christian truth in noting errours of Erasmus But he that would affirme Erasmus to be ignorant of the Greeke toong wherof his workes so many both in diuinitie and humanitie through all sortes of writers doo proclaime the contrarie néedeth no other Censor to aduertise men with what eyes he looked into Erasmus dooings It was not Erasmus ignorance of Greeke which bredde so many errours in his corrections of or notes vpon S. Ierome It was his knowledge of the Latine the Romane churches faults It was his skil of the Italian abuses of the Pope It was the triacle which he giueth that séemeth poison vnto you These thinges because they moued many to suspect that somewhat in Popery was not of the best it was thought expedient that they should bee taken out of S. Ierome Victorius to doo it with a faire shew pretended other errours but through too much choler hee bewraied his humour He lacked that discretion which hath bene shewed since by the Diuines of Louan in setting foorth the notes of Viues on S. Austin For they haue omitted a great many things wherin Viues touched their Popes and Churches sores yet say they not so much Only they say that certaine things are omitted certaine as not many and errours they name them not neyther tell they what Now if the notes of Viues on S. Austin haue found such disfauour the censures of Erasmus on him may better beare it And to say the truth they haue deserued it at your handes For in those censures hath Erasmus shewed that many bookes doo falsely beare S. Austins name by which as by the warrant of S. Austins iudgement sundry of your Schoolemens and Canonists dreames haue bene aduanced and aided But he reiecteth some as counterfeit you say which Torrensis proueth to be S. Austins owne And what maruell is it if amongst hundreds he were deceiued in one or two And hauing had triall of many false titles he thought somefalse which were not A fish that hath béene touched once with the hooke is saide to feare the hooke vnder euery meate They who
and doctrine Wherefore sith the Pharises were so well estéemed did swarme in Iurie it is not to be thought but that other tribes had some of that profession chiefely the tribe of Iuda Hart. If Iuda if Beniamin if other tribes had of them much more by all likelihood had the tribe of Leui. And them might our Sauiour specially meane not generally all in saying The Pharises doo sit vpon the chaire of Moses As if I should say that the Catholikes sit vpon the chaire of Christ you must not thinke I meane of Catholikes who be scholers but of Catholikes who be teachers of Catholike Priestes and Bishops Rainoldes Your answere hath reason For as S. Paule was a Pharise-scholer so was Gamaliel a Pharise-teacher And that there were Pharises of the Priestes Leuites the scripture sheweth saying that the Iewes sent Priestes and Leuites from Ierusalem to talke with Iohn Baptist and they who were sent were of the Pharises Wherefore that the Pharises did succeede Aaron the likelihood is great That the Scribes greater For they expounded taught the law of God whence they were also called now Doctors of the law now Lawiers by duetie and office Whereupon when Herode desired to know where Christ should be borne he gathered togither all the chiefe Priests and Scribes of the people to learne it of them It is most likely then that they succéeded Aaron too as did their predecessor Ezra the Scribe prompt in the law of Moses Yet your Doctor Genebrard saith that the Scribes were lightly of the tribe of Simeon and they with the Pharises are said to haue sate in the chaire of Moses as who had thrust them selues into it being emptie while the Priestes abusing the riches of the Church did forsake their duetie Hart. If Genebrard or any other of our Doctors haue a conceit of his owne what is that to me I folow the receiued sâ—ntence of the Church that the Scribes and Pharises came into the chaire of Moses by succession and not by intrusion But why do you agréeing with me in this point reproue it in my argument Rainoldes I reproued it not The point which I reproued was that you expounded the wordes of Christ so They sate in the chaire of Moses that is they did succeede Aaron Which exposition is erroneous and verie dangerous to the truth though the danger of it not so apparant in it selfe as in the consequent For it is the mother of a greater error Hart. And how would you haue it expounded I pray Rainoldes According to the word and meaning of Christ. The Scribes and the Pharises sit in the chaire of Moses that is they teach the law of Moses For as Moses him selfe receiued it of God to teach it the children of Israel and he did so in like sort the Priestes and Leuites after him were vsed to reade it in the assemblies of the people and to expound it To this end their synagogues were built in euery citie and euerie Sabbat day they met there as it is written Moses of olde time hath in euerie citie them that preach him being read in the Synagogues euerie Sabbat day Now they who did teach were wont to teach sitting which appeereth by our Sauiours example in the temple in the synagogues in other places Wherfore the Scribes and Pharises of whom there were some in euerie towne of Galile and Iurie and Ierusalem to discharge this duetie are said to haue sate in the seat of Moses or chaire as we terme it because they did teach the same which Moses did euen the law of God deliuered to Moses Hart. The matter is not great whether you expound it thus or as we doo Rainoldes Yes For it foloweth of your exposition that the Scribes and Pharises said well in all things which they said because they did succeede Aaron and so that succession which is the marke you shoote at hath certaintie of doctrine and faith knit vnto it Whereas the right lesson which you should gather thence is that the Scribes and Pharises said well in all thinges which they said out of the word of God and so that Gods word is simplie true and certaine but men ordeined to teach it must be heard no farther thâ—n they agree with it And this might D. Stapleton haue learned of the same Fathers whom he cited but that he rather readeth them to mainetaine a faction then to learne the truth For Austin doth interpret the chaire not of succession but of wholsome doctrine in the which they sit who speake the good things of God we are willed to heare God speaking by them when we are willed to do the things which they say For in sitting on Moses chaire they teach the law of God therefore by them God doth teach But if they would teach their owne things saith Austin heare them not obey them not So doth Chrysostome expound it Doo all things which the Scribes and Pharises say you must doo for they preach not their owne things but the things which God commaunded by Moses So doth Origen apply it to them who teach the faith aright with a speciall clause that Christians if they see a preacher liue ill and haue not to charge him with teaching ill doctrine they must frame their liues according to his words not deedes If they haue not to charge him with teaching ill doctrine as if he should say that who soeuer teach ill doctrine they sit not in the chaire of Moses Let them succéede Aaron neuer so directly yet if their doctrine be ill they sit not in the chaire of Moses Whereby you may sée the wretched state of that argument of which you made so great vaunt For the first proposition that the Scribes and Pharises were to be obeied in all thinges which they said because they sate in the chaire of Moses that is they did succeede Aaron is fouly corrupted in the point of succession The second that the Popes do sit in Christes chaire that is they are successors of the Apostles is tainted with the sameâ—canker that the first The conclusion therefore that men must obey the Popes in all thinges which they say and the consequent thereof that they cannot erre in any thing they say are children like their parents as sound as the propositions of which they are begotten The filthines of all the which if yet you sée not behold an other light to sée it by The Scribes amongst the Iewes were as the Canonists are with you the Pharises as the Schoolemen your Genebrard doth match them so Or if you like not his iudgement therein because Schoolemen and Canonists say not true in all thinges yet this you must graunt that Priestes are with you as Scribes and Pharises were with them For Chrysostome saith they be the verie wordes which you did passe ouer for breuities sake we must not say now In
two conditions one that they bee lawfully ordayned least they bee theeues who enter in not by the doore an other that being lawfully ordained they keepe and holde vnitie least they become woolues of pastours Rainoldes Then is not trueth of doctrine knit necessarily to succession it selfe no not though it bee lawfull and Apostolike succession Hart. I graunt but with vnitie Rainoldes Then is there much vanitie in Stapletons discourses and in his vaunt more vanitie that in spite of heretikes a sure vndouted certaintie of doctrine and faith is knit to the verie succession of the Apostles to the succession it selfe And you by retayning this vnitie with Stapleton haue razed to the grounde that prerogatiue of the Pope whereon you builded his supremacie For if vnitie with succession haue vndouted certaintie of doctrine and faith all Pastors kéeping vnitie are as frée from errour in doctrine as the Pope is And so if not to erre in doctrine be a priuilege proofe of the supremacie all Pastours haue as high supremacie by this vnitie as the Pope hath The Pope I can tell you will not like this vnitie How much the more wisely me thought you dealt before when laying the foundation of the prerogatiue Papall you remoued this vnitie out of the chaire that His vnitie might sit in it For whereas S. Austin saith that God hath set the doctrine of truth in the chaire of vnitie meaning of all pastors and teachers of the Church which held the faith with â—oncord against the sect and schisme of Donatistes you applyed that saying to the chaire of the Pope displacing altogether both vnitie and other pastors Wherein though you forsooke the steps of D. Stapleton who proueth by that verie saying of S. Austin that all Priestes and Bishops whether they be pastours or hirelinges teach the truth yet you followed that which you had receiued of your Diuines at Rhemes For they do so apply it to the Popes prerogatiue Belike the great benefites flowing from the Pope to the Rhemish Seminarie did moue them to aduenture somewhat in his quarell more then D. Stapletons heart did â—erue him too Hart No more then in truth and conscience they might For though in déed that saying of S. Austin were meant of al Bishops that held the faith with concord which our Diuines of Rhemes I warrant you knew well enough yet they might apply it to the Pope as chiefely belonging vnto him the fountaine as it were of vnitie Rainoldes But they do apply it to the Pope as onely belonging vnto him For they alleage it to proue the prerogatiue and priuilege of the Pope that howsoeuer he doo in person yet he cannot erre in office Liberius say they in persecution might yeelde Marcellinus for feare might commit idolatrie Honorius might fall to heresie and more then all this some Iudas might creepe into the office and yet all this without preiudice of the office and seate in which saith S. Austin our Lord hath set the doctrine of truth If your Diuines of Rhemes knew that S. Austin wrote this of all Bishops that held the faith with concord their sinne is the greater For that which he made common to the vnitie of all they nippe it as proper to the singular seate of one And that which he spake in generall of wicked bishops who say good thinges and doo euill they abbridge it to Popes As who say that Popes onely could be wicked not other Bishops also Hart. If there were perhaps either a slippe ofmemory or other ouersight in citing of S. Austins wordes the matter is not great so long as the thing is true which they be cited for namely that the Pope may erre in person not in office as a priuate man not as Pope Rainoldes The matter is so great that the tracke thereof will find vs out that which by this distinction you séeke to steale away For you say that the Pope cannot erre in office though he may in person And why Because although his person be wicked yet in the seate hath God set the doctrine of truth as S. Austin saith But as S. Austin saith it all Bishops be they good or euill pastors or hirelinges doo sit in that seat So that none of them can erre in office neither by consequence of your reason Wherefore if the Pope cannot erre as Pope a Bishop cannot erre as Bishop But you will not say I thinke that a Bishop cannot erre as Bishop Therefore you must yéeld that the Pope may erre as Pope Hart. What if I said that a Bishop can not erre as Bishop I could maintaine it after a sort Rainoldes I doubt not of that But you should marre the Popes priuilege which if you doo Hart. Nay I say it not The fault of your argument is rather in the former part I meane in the ground thereofwhich you said as out of S. Austin that the office and seate wherein God hath set the doctrine of truth is common to al Bishops For though he may séeme to haue so thought in that epistle yet in the next before it he giueth that prerogatiue to the Sée of Rome Rainoldes Unlesse your Diuines of Rhemes doo abuse him For out of that epistle they teach vs this lesson God preserueth the truth of Christian religion in the Apostolike See of Rome which is in the new Law answerable to the chaire of Moses notwithstanding the Bishops of the same were neuer so wicked of life yea though some traitor as ill as Iudas were Bishop thereof it should not bee preiudiciall to the Church and innocent Christians for whom our Lord prouiding said Doo that which they say but doo not as they doo August Epist. 165. Now in the epistle alleaged and quoted for proofe of this lesson S. Austin saith the very same which in the other of wicked Bishops in generall though applying it in particular to the Bishops of Rome if any of them had béene wicked Your Diuines of Rhemes leaue out the generall wordes that simple men may thinke he meant a special priuilege of the Sée of Rome Whereto they note in the margent The See of Rome preserued in truth And vpon other like places The dignitie of the See of Rome And that which passeth all they say that in the newe law the See of Rome is answerable to the chaire of Moses the Apostolike See of Rome I was of opinion before I saw these gloses of theirs vpon the Testament that Stapleton had passed all the Popes retayners in abusing Scriptures and Fathers for the Papacy But now I perceiue and confesse that as Ierusalem did iustifie her sister Sodom so the Diuines of Rhemes haue iustified their brother Stapleton For Stapleton as he hath dealt with greater truth and honestie then they in many other pointes so hath he shewed in this of Scribes and Pharises sitting in Moses chaire both that the text is meant of wicked
lawfullie prouide for the maintenance of their state temporall For what saith S. Paul If any man haue not care of his owne and specially of his domesticals he hath denyed the faith and is worse then an infidell Wherefore you must consider that the Pope susteineth a double person as it were the one of a Prince the other of a Bishop As a Prince he gouerneth his temporall dominion as a Bishop his spirituall His spirituall charge is all the churche of Christ his temporall a part of it And so though both of them concerne after a sorte the state of the Church yet his affaires spirituall which stretch through all Christendoom doo differ from his temporall which touch the Church of Rome chieflie For example Leo the ninth a verie good Pope aboue fiue hundred yeares since when the Normans spoiled the land of the Church and he had cursed them for it but could not conquer them by curses he got of the Emperor a strong band of soldiours whom he lead in person himselfe against the varletes and met them in the field manfully At the same time Michael the Patriarke of Constantinople denyed the supremacie of the Church of Rome and claimed it to his own Sée Whereof when Pope Leo heard he sent thrée legats to Constantinople to root out that heresie Now the former of these thinges he did as Prince against the Normans who set vpon his temporall dominion with armes the later as Bishop against the Patriarke who taught heresie a point of his spirituall charge Affaires of this later sort let me name for difference sake the Church-affaires the former the affaires of state And so it shall appeere what iniurie you doo them whom spitefully you call Herodes For you say that the affaires which they are busied about are their affaires of state Whereas in verie truth the affaires of the Church doo busie them a great deale more to sée that the Catholike religion be taught that errors be suppressed to prouide dioceses of good and learned Bishops and parishes of able pastors to heare appeales determine causes receiue supplications excommunicate the wicked absolue the repentant to doo the whole function of supreme heades of the Church And may not these affaires so weightie in charge in number so manie bee a iust excuse for them if they preach not Or will you slaunder them that they omit that dutie for their state-affaires when they omit it for the Church Rainoldes I would to God you were able to proue that I slaunder them and speake more spitefullie then trulie ofthem Better had it béene and would be for poore Christians of whom they haue murdered more soules nay more thousands of soules in one countrie with their Herodian practises then Herode murdered bodies through his whole dominion And this haue they doon by that prophane policie wherewith I iustlie charged them euen by pretending the Churches state to plant their owne and vsing the shewes of gouernment spirituall to get them temporall aduancement For vnder the coolour of binding and loosing the credit of forgiuing sinnes the title of S. Peters keyes their ordering of the whole Church and highest power in al Church-causes they haue raised vp the tower of their Papacie with the spoiles of Christendom and haue deuoured men as breade and sold the poore for siluer that they might make themselues strong in power and rich in wealth The first and chiefest meanes whereby they finished this worke and hauing built the walles by climing vp aboue Bishops did lay the roofe of it by climing vp aboue Emperours was excommunication Which they not content to vse against their Souerains as a spirituall ceasure did racke it to a ciuill punishment remouing them not onelie from the communion of the faithfull but also from dominion and rule ouer their subiectes and putting them as from the Church so from the Empire too When Emperour Leo the third desirous to abolish the worship of Images which then was créeping in had caused them to be defaced and thereupon did punish some who withstood it Pope Gregorie the second did excommunicate him in that Papal sorte forbidding the Italians to pay him tribute or obey him Upon this sentence and inhibition of the Pope a great part of Italie rebelled against their Emperour resiant at Constantinople and laid violent handes vpon his Deputies Lieutenants of whom they slew two and put out the eyes of the third By reason of which vprore and tumults ensuing part of the countrie that rebelled was conquered by the king of Lombardie Rome and the dominion of the Roman Dukedome fell vnto the Pope So the Pope who till that time had béene a Bishop onely became a Prince by treason But the Emperour sent another Deputie into Italie to stay those attemptes Who entring into league with the king of Lombards they ioined hostes togither and besieged Rome The Pope perceiuing that the garrisons and munitions wherewith he had fensed and fortified the citie were not strong enough to make his partie good against them trusting on the king of Lombards deuotion he went out with a solemne procession vnto him and with many swéete wordes of Peter and Paul Princes of the Apostles who with their pretious bloud had consecrated the church of Rome and will the godly vertuous catholike king of Lombards hurt the citie of that church and draw on him the vengeance of Peter and Paul he did intreate the king to giue the siege ouer and make the Deputie and him friendes Afterwarde a Duke one of the kinges subiects entending to reuolt from him did ioine in league and fréendship with the Roman Prince Pope Gregory the third and on the affiance thereof he rebelled The king hauing recouered his Dukedom by armes pursued the Duke to Rome The Pope not willing to deliuer the rebell nor able to defend the citie against the king who thereupon besieged it dealt as his predecessour had doon by supplication But finding the matter to be past intreatie and hoping for no aide in Italie hee sent to Charles Martell the king of Frances hye steward desiring him to helpe the church against the Lombard Which Charles by an embassage did raised the siege Now when Charles dyed his sonne named Pipine sucâ—ceded him in office who because Chilperike that was king then did no part of the kingly duty but left the charge and burden thereof vnto him he tooke thereby occasion to make himselfe king Which to bring about with greater credit and autoritie the Popes aduise was asked Pope Zacharie made answere that he who did execute the dutie of the king ought to be king rather then he who did not execute it Whereupon the French men chose Pipine to be king the Pope released them of their oth to Chilperike About a two yeares after the king of Lombardy hauing woon Rauenna which citie was the seate of the Empire in Italy thought it méet that Rome and the Roman Dukedom
which they did gather of those wordes then might we know the times whereof our Sauiour saith that it is not for man to knowe them And vpon this reason S. Austin doth reproue that fansie of sixe thousand yeares as rash and presumptuous Hart. So doo we also For Lindan and Prateolus doo note it in Luthers and Melanchthons Chronicles as a Iewish heresie Rainoldes Good reason when Luther and Melanchthon write it But when Irenaeus Hilarie Lactantius and other Fathers write it what doo they note it then Hart. Suppose it were an ouersight But what néedes all this As who say you douted that we would maintaine the Fathers in those things in which they are conuicted of error by the scriptures Rainoldes I haue cause to dout it For though there be no man lightly so profane as to professe that he will doo so yet such is the blindnes o◠mens deuotion to Saintes there haue béene heretofore who haue so done and are still There is a famous fable touching the assumption of the blessed virgin that when the time of her death approched the Apostles then dispersed throughout the world to preach the gospell were taken vp in cloudes and brought miraculously to Ierusalem to be present at her funerall This tale in olde time was writen in a booke which bare the name of Melito an auncient learned Bishop of Asia though he wrote it not be like But whosoeuer wrote it he wrote a lye saith Bede because his words gaine say the wordes of S. Luke in the actes of the Apostles Which Bede hauing shewed in sundrie pointes of his tale he saith that he reherseth these thinges because he knoweth that some beleeue that booke with vnaduised rashnesse against S. Lukes autoritie So you sée there haue béene who haue beléeued a Father yea perhaps a rascall not a Father against the scriptures And that there are such still I sée by our countrymen your diuines of Rhemes who vouch the same fable vpon greater credit of Fathers then the other but with no greater truth Hart. Doo you call the assumption of our Ladie a fable What impietie is this against the mother of our Lord that excellent vessell of grace whom all generations ought to call blessed But you can not abide her prayses and honours Nay you haue abolished not onely her greatest feast of her assumption but of her conception and natiuitie too So as it may bee thought the diuell beareth a special malice to this woman whose seede brake his head Rainoldes It may be thought that the diuell when he did striue with Michael about the bodie of Moses whom the Lord buried the Iewes knew not where did striue that his bodie might bee reuealed to the Iewes to the entent that they might worship it and commit idolatrie But it is out of doubt that when he moued the people of Lystra to sacrifice vnto Paul and Barnabas and to call them Gods he meant to deface the glory of God by the too much honouring and praysing of his Saintes We can abide the prayses of Barnabas and Paule but not to haue them called Gods We can abide their honours but not to sacrifice vnto them Wee know that the diuell doth beare a speciall malice both to the woman and to the womans seed But whether he doth wreake it more vpon the séede by your sacrificing of prayses and prayers to the woman or by our not sacrificing let them define who know his policies The Christians of old time were charged with impietie because they had no Gods but one This is our impietie For whatsoeuer honour and prayse may bee giuen to the Saintes of God as holy creatures but creatures we doo gladly giue it We thinke of them all and namely of the blessed virgin reuerently honourably We desire our selues and wish others to folow her godly faith and vertuous life We estéeme her as an excellent vessell of grace We call her as the scripture teacheth vs blessed yea the most blessed of all women But you would haue her to be named and thought not onely blessed her selfe but also a giuer of blessednesse to others not a vessell but a fountaine or as you entitle her a mother of grace and mercy And in your solemne prayers you doo her that honour which is onely due to our creator and redeemer For you call on her to defend you from the enimie and receiue you in the houre of death Thus although in semblance of wordes you deny it yet in déede you make her equall to Christ as him our Lord so her our Ladie as him our God so her our Goddesse as him our King so her our Queene as him our mediator so her our mediatresse as him in all thinges tempted like vs sinne excepted so her deuoide of all sinne as him the onely name whereby we must be saued so her our life our ioy our hope a very mother of orphans an aide to the oppressed a medicine to the diseased and to be short all to all Which impious worship of a Sainte because you haue aduanced by keping holy dayes vnto her the feastes of her conception natiuitie assumption therefore are they abolished by the reformed Churches iustly For the vse of holy dayes is not to worship Saintes but to worship God the sanctifier of Saintes As the Lorde ordeined them that men might meete together to serue him and heare his worde Hart. Why keepe you then still the feastes of the Apostles Euangelists other Saintes and not abolish them also As some of your reformed or rather your deformed Churches haue doon Rainoldes Our deformed Churches are glorious in his sight who requireth men to worship him in spirite truth though you besotted with the hoorish beauty of your synagogues doo scorne at their simplenesse as the proude spirite of Mical did at Dauid when he was vile before the Lord. The Churches of Scotland Flanders France and others allow not holy dayes of Saintes because no day may be kept holy but to the honour of God Of the same iudgement is the Church of England for the vse of holy dayes Wherefore although by kéeping the names of Saintes dayes we may séeme to kéepe them to the honour of Saintes yet in déede we kéepe them holy to God onely to prayse his name for those benefits which he hath bestowed on vs by the ministerie of his Saintes And so haue the Churches of Flanders and Fraunce expounded well our meaning in that they haue noted that some Churches submit them selues to their weakenesse with whome they are conuersant so farre foorth that they keepe the holy dayes of Saintes though in an other sorte nay in a cleane contrarie then the Papists doo Hart. But if you kéepe the feastes of other Saintes in that sorte why not
Church both in the spring and grouth of it are couered with great darknes and lye vnknown in a maner for those things saith he which are writen of them are a fewe excepted defiled with many fables while he that writeth them doth folow his own affectioÌ„ telleth not what a Saint hath done but what he would haue had him done so that the writers fansie and not the truth doth penne the storie Yea some haue thought it a point of great godlinesse to coyne prety lyes that thereby mens deuotion might be stirred vp Some haue thought it a point of great godlinesse saith Viues but wil you know of what godlines There is a mysterie in yâ— which Viâ—es doth not open Canus doth open it For he saith that they who feine and forge in writing ecclesiasticall stories deuise their whole matter ether to error or to gaine S. Paule hath forewarned vs of a kinde of men which thinke that gaine is godlines Your Church M. Hart hath had many minions who of a zeale to this godlines haue not onely writen but wrought miracles too You remember the tale of Bel and the Dragon A fréend of yours intreating thereof doth report that as the Priestes of Babylon did abuse the people in the Dragons worship so euen in the Church the people sometimes is shamefully deceiued with miracles wrought either by Priestes or by their adherents for gaine and lucres sake Hart. If any doo so we allow not of it and there is order taken by the Councell of Trent against such abuses But what is this to the Portesse or rather to the Popes supremacie Chiefly sith I minde not to alleage any thing out of the Portesse for it Rainoldes I was afraide you would You are a man aâ— likely for ought that I know to doo it for the Popes supremacie as your Rhemists to doo it for the assumption of the virgin Though my meaning was not so much of your Portesse as of Portesse-like writers by whom I fell into your Portesse But â—f you minde not to alleage any thing out of the Portesse for it then you will not bring those miracles which are fathered vpon S. Thomas of Canterburie Aqua Thomae quinquies varians colorem In las semel transijt quater in crâ—orem Ad Thomae memoriam quater lux descendit Et in sancti gloriam cereos accendit The water of Thomas did fiue times change her colour Once it was turned into milke and foure times into bloud At Thomas his monument foure times there came downe light And in the honour of the Sainte it kindled the tapers Hart. I pray go to the purpose and leaue these idle fansies which you bring in to play with There is no such thing in the Portesse now And if it were what is it to the point in question Rainoldes To the point in question as direct as may be For this Thomas died vpon occasion of a quarrell about the Popes supremacie while he maintained appeales against the king to the Pope Now to proue that he stood in defense of the truth those miracles were wrought For that which they preached who had the grace of miracles was the truth saith Bristow adding that S. Thomas of Canterbury S. Thomas of Aquine S. Francis S. Dominike and infinit others had that grace in such sorte that no man is able to put any difference betweene the miracles of Christ with his Apostles and of these men Yet well-fare their heartes who reformed your Portesse For they haue put out those miracles of S. Thomas of Canterbury and many others which they would not haue doon I trow had they not knowne some difference betwéene the miracles of these men and the miracles of Christ. But they haue left in as worthie a miracle as those of an other of Bristowes miracle-workers euen of S. Thomas of Aquine and I hope you will not call that an idle fansie though it be as idle with me as the former For they report of him that when he was praying earnestly at Naples before the image of the crucifix he heard a voyce the crucifix spake it saying to him Thomas thou hast writen well of me Thomas I should haue thought for my part that the wodden crucifix of a louing thankfull hart had commended him because he did honour it with the fame honour that is due to God and writeth solemnly that men ought to doo so But Pope Pius the fifth the Lorde-reformer of the Portesse affirmeth that the doctrine of Thomas was approued by the mouth of the crucifix him self in this miracle And he knew best the meaning ofit So that I perceyue this miracle was rather a dogmaticall miracle as Bristow â—ermeth it then personall But whether personall or dogmaâ—icall it shall not perswade me that all is true which is writen and taught by your dogmaticall Doctor Thomas For as I haue shewed he forgeth and belyeth the Fathers notably in the defense of the Popes supremacie against the Grecians I can hardly think that when the crucifix said Thomas had writen well it meant to approue his writing in that point Or if the crucifix meant it the crucifix was to blame vnlesse the faute were rather in some lying knaue who spake out of the crucifix Such feates there haue beene wrought in images ere now Hart. Euill mindes turne all thinges to the worst Pope Pius the fifth doth say of that miracle that it is recorded in a godly story Rainoldes But in what story Pope Pius doth not say Belike he meaneth Antoninus of whom you know what Canus iudgeth and his iudgement therein is good Hart. Yet you can not deny but that Antoninus reporteth many true thinges And why may not that miracle I pray be one of them Rainoldes A lying miracle no doubt as Antoninus reporteth it For he saith that when Thomas was commanded by Pope Gregorie to come vnto the Councell of Lions and to bring with him that booke which he had made by Pope Vrbanes commandement against the errours of the Grecians whereof in that Councell they were to be conuicted before he went thither that voyce was heard out of the crucifix by certaine who watched Thomas as he was praying on a certaine night in S. Dominikes coouent-church I say nothing here of the suspicious circumstances the time the night season the place the coouent-church the witnesses lying in waite the cause to proue that which should bee handled for the Pope against the Grecians in the Councell Onely this I say that séeing in that booke against the errors of the Grecians Thomas doth falsifie the writinges of S. Cyrill and of aboue six hundred Fathers euen the generall Councel of Chalcedon to make them beare witnesse for the Popes supremacie the miracle pretended to haue declared as from heauen that Thomas did well in handling so the cause of Christ was a lying miracle lying in respect
of the forme or of the end I meane as either wrought by deceit or to deceit by deceit ifmen did counterfeit the voice to deceit if they hearde it miraculously in deede As it is writen touching the man of sinne that his coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and with lying signes and wonders and with all deceiuablenesse of vnrighteousnesse among them that perish because they receyued not the loue of truth that they might be saued Take héede M. Hart least that which foloweth be verified in you Therefore shall God send them strong delusion to beleue lyes that al they may be damned who beleeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteouâ—nesse Hart. Take heede vnto your selfe M. Rainoldes that you offend not in this vnrighteousnesse by abusing that famous Doctor of the Church S. Thomas of Aquine For the holy Father Pope Pius the fifth hath honoured his memorie with a double greater feast in his countrie and with a double feast throughout all Christendome to be kept as solemnly as the holy dayes of the foure Doctours of the Church are kept Wherefore you ought to thinke so much the more reuerently of all that he hath writen and not to charge him with forging and falsifying if he haue missed ought but rather to suppose that if the autours haue not that which he alleageth yet he had read it alleaged by some other and of a good affection to the Sée of Rome he thought it to be rightly alleaged and wrote it Rainoldes Of a good affection As you will Let it be so He with such dealing of a good affection hath feasted the Pope and the Pope againe of a good affection hath double feasted him But you graunt then that Doctors of the Church may bee deceyued as through ouersight so through affection too and that these exceptions against them are lawfull Hart. Lawfull if you proue that they be so deceiued For they may be I graunt Rainoldes What And may they not be deceiued also or rather seeme to be deceyued through the affection or ouersight of other men Hart. Of other men How Rainoldes As when a Greeke writer is translated into Latin the translator maketh him sometimes to say that which he neuer meant And before printing the scriueners who copied out bookes with hand committed sundrie scapes Which likewise befalleth vnto printers now So there may be a faute in an autour without the autours faute through ouersight of printers or scriueners or translators For example in the story ecclesiasticall of Eusebius translated by Rufinus it is alleaged out of Clemens that Peter Iames Iohn although Christ preferred them almost before all yet they tooke not the honour of primacie to them selues but ordeined Iames who was surnamed Iust Bishop of the Apostles This had béene a notable testimonie for Iames against the primacie of Peter But I alleaged it not because as I séeke to winne you to the truth so I séeke to doo it by true and right meanes Whereof this were none being an ouersight as it appeereth of Rufinus For in the Greeke Eusebius it is that they ordeined him Bishop of Ierusalem not Bishop of the Apostles Hart. That may be the printers faute or the scriueners perhaps who wrote it out not his who translated it Rainoldes But I thinke it rather the translators faulte For Marianus Scotus doth cite out of Methodius the same touching Iames that they ordeined him Bishop of the Apostles Which belike was taken out of the storie of Eusebius doon into Latin by Rufinus And he hath erred often in in turning Gréeke writers as also his translation of Iosephus sheweth Though I may not charge him with all the faultes therein For where it is auouched by some that Iosephus holdeth the bookes of Maccabees to be holy scripture as in déede he séemeth to doo in the Latin in the Greeke he saith not any such thing nay he doth teach the contrarie but it is vnlikely this came from Rufinus who helde him selfe the Maccabees not to be canonical Howbeit if you say that the Gréeke copie which he translated of Eusebius had that word amisse through the scriueners faulte I will not striue against you But a more certaine example of the faultinesse in scriueners first and printers after is found in Optatus in that he affirmeth Peter was called Cephas because he was head of the Apostles Apostolorum caeput Petrus vnde Cephas appellatus est Upon the which place your lawier doth note that where he had thought it to be an ouersight of a man dreaming that the Syriake word which singifieth a stone is the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth a head now he ghessed rather that the words unde Cephas appellatus est were some foolish glose writen rashly in the margent and then interlaced into the text by scriueners Hart. Like enough But you haue no harme by this glose For though you blot it out yet Optatus saith that Peter was head of the Apostles Rainoldes Neither haue we any harme by that text For I haue shewed before it maketh nought for the Papacie But we may haue harme by that kind of gloses chiefely sith as Viues obserueth on S. Austin vpon the like occasion some glosers haue defiled all the writings of noble autours with such vncleane handling of them Hart. Will you make an ende of excepting against the Fathers and let vs heare at length the Fathers speake themselues Rainoldes The fathers them selues With a very good will But looke that you bring me the Fathers them selues For which is my last exception and so an ende there are many bookes entitled to Fathers which the Fathers made not nay whereof sundry were made by such youthes as are not worthy to beare the Fathers shooes The workes of S. Ierom are abroade in nine volumes of the which nine as good as three are none of his And yet Vitae patrum a legend how wrongfully fathered on S. Ierom your Espencaeus Canus shew is not amongst them Though there are amongst them slippes of the same tree a barbarous and sottish fable as Canus calleth it of the natiuitie of S. Marie and many other treatises of the same kinde which Erasmus hath refuted most diligently rightly The workes of S. Austin haue not béene tampred with so much in this sort NotwithstaÌ„ding there is not aboue one or two of his ten volumes that hath not more or fewer such pamphlets patched to it Not onely by the iudgement and censure of Erasmus which yet you sée how Canus estéemeth in S. Ierom but also of the Louanists whose censures are the censures of many of your best Diuines and they shew that sundry things beare S. Austins name whereof some are vnlearned some lewde and heretical But what do I speake of Ierom and Austin when there is scarse any amongst all the
standeth not so much in making Church-officers as in iudging Church-causes And therein the second sort of Popes auouched as much as the last For Innocentius the first answering the letters of the Councell of Mileuis who had writen to him about the errour of the Pelagians doth prayse them for referring the matter vnto him and I thinke saith he that as oft as a matter of faith is called in question all our brethren and felow-bishops ought not but to referre it vnto Peter that is the autour of their name and honour as now your charitie hath doon Rainoldes Thâ—se wordes of Innocentius may proue M. Hart that he claimed a preeminence of knowledge for your Peter not a soueraintie of power a preeminence of knowledge to resolue the Church-questions not a soueraintie of power to decide the Church-causes For matters of faith are to be defined by the rule of faith that is by the scriptures and the right opening of the scriptures lyeth not in power but in knowledge Which you may learne by Gratian in the Canon law saying that the Fathers are preferred before the Popes in expounding of scriptures because they passe them in knowledge the Popes before the Fathers in deciding of causes because they passe them in power Hart. That distinction of causes and questions of the Church is but a shift of sophstrie to cast a mist vpon the truth For though the Church-causes as Gratian speaketh of them do concerne persons the innocent to be acquitted or offenders to be condemned yet questions of faith which you call Church-questions are Church-causes too in a generall sense As one of the third sort of Popes saith that greater causes of the Church chiefly such as touch the articles of faith are to be referred to the See of Peter And this was the meaning of Innocentius the first For in his letters to the Councell of Carthage writen to like effect on the same occasion he saith that the Fathers decreed by the sentence not of man but of God that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces far of they thought that it ought not to be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome Rainoldes It is true that questions of matters touching faith are causes of the Church but they are not such causes as quicken the Papacie The causes touching persons which Zosimus Boniface and Caelestine did deale for when they would haue it lawfull for Bishops Elders to appeale to Rome are those which Popes must liue by And the same Councels of Carthage and Mileuis whom Innocentius wrote too did know and shew this difference when they desired the Popes consent in that of faith but forbadde the causes of Bishops and Elders to come vnto him by appeales Wherefore that distinction of the Church-causes and the Church-questions is not a shift of sophistrie to cast a mist vpon the truth but a point of truth to cléere the mist of your sophistry For your Iesuit citeth those textes of Innocentius to proue the Popes supremacie Whereas he claimeth iudgement to resolue the douts or that is lesse autoritie to approue the doctrine not a soueraine power to heare and determin the causes of the Church Hart. Nay his wordes are generall to the Councell of Carthage that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces farre off it should come to the notice of the See of Rome before it were concluded Rainoldes But if you doo racke that word whatsoeuer so farre beyond his drift you make him more gréedy then the last sort of Popes who claime the greater causes of the Church onely Wherefore as when S. Paul saith all thinges are lawfull for me he meaneth not all thingâ—s absolutely and simply but all indifferent thinges according to the point which he treateth of so must you apply the wordes of Innocentius not to whatsoeuer touching Church-causes but to matters of faith called into question which the Popes being learned then and Catholike the Christian Churches vsed to referre to them that the truth approued by their consent and iudgement might for their autoritie finde the greater credit fréer passage against heretikes Hart. What say you then to Leo the great or rather to S. Gregorie who had the Church-causes euen such as touched persons referred to their Sée and willed them to be so as their epistles shew Rainoldes In déede Leo and Gregorie are somewhat large that way Though Leo as the diocese of the Roman Patriarke was lesser in his time then afterwarde in Gregories so had fewer of them Gregorie had more yet he had not all Hart. Not all but all the greater And that is as much as the last sort of Popes claime Rainoldes But they claime all the greater through the whole world which Gregorie neither had nor claimed Hart. No Is it not manifest by all his Epistles that hée dealt with the causes of Bishops in Italie Spaine Fraunce Afrike Corsica Sardinia Sicilia Dalmatia and many countries mo Rainoldes Yet he dealt neither with all the greater causes nor through the whole world And this very shew of the names of couÌ„tries by which your Irish champion doth thinke the Popes supremacie to be cléerely proued is a demonstration in truth to disproue it For rehersing only those which you haue named with England Ireland Corcyra and Graecia and saying that Gregorie did practise the supremacie ouer their Bishops and Churches though neither prouing so much but admit he proued it yet in bringing only the names and proofes of these he sheweth that Gregorie did not practise it ouer the Bishops and Churches of Thracia Mysia Scythia Galatia Bithynia Cappadocia Armenia Pamphylia Lydia Pisidia Lycaonia Phrygia Lycia Caria Hellespontus Aegypt Iury Phoenicia Syria Cilicia Cyprus Arabia Mesopotania Isauria with the rest of the countries subiect to the Patriarkes of Constantinople Alexandria Antioche and Ierusalem Hart. Though S. Gregorie speake not of these particularly yet he sheweth in generall his supremacie ouer them For whereas the Patriarke saith he doth confesse himselfe to be subiect to the See Apostolike if any fault bee founde in Bishops I know not what Bishop is not subiect to it Behold not onely Bishops but the Patriarkes also subiect to the Pope by S. Gregories iudgement yea by their owne confession Rainoldes Nay it was not a Patriarke but a Primate who confessed that And a Primate is but a Bishop of the first and cheefest See in a Prouince that is a Metropolitan Hart. It was Primas Byzancenus that is to say the Patriarke of Constantinople as it is expounded in the glose on Gratian For Constantinople was called Byzantium first Rainoldes Gratian and his glose were deceiued both For primas Byzacenus or Byzancenus if you reade it so is Primate of Byzacium called Byzantium too which was a prouince of Afrike and therfore had a Primate as Councels of that countrie shew Whom and not the Patriarke
for S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike it is too manifest that they kept this new distinction as you terme it For of the two Popes whom you say they sought to they desired the one to assist them with his autoritie the other not to chalenge power in their Church causes A great fault of yours to say that S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike sought to Caelestinus for the prerogatiue of his office when they dealt against his vsurped prerogatiue Greater if you did it wittingly and willingly Wherof your Annotations do geue strong suspicion in that hauing quoted all the other places they lâ—â—ue this vnquoted least the reader should find the fraude Hart. I was not at the finishing of our Annotations They who set them downe knew their own meaning and will I warrant you maintaine it But what a souerainty the Fathers yéelded to the Pope it may appeare by this as D. Stapleton sheweth that they thought no Councell to be of any force vnles he confirmed it For the Fathers assembled in the Councell of Nice the first generall Councell sent their epistle to Pope Siluester beséeching him to ratifie and confyrme with his consent whatsoeuer they had ordeined Rainoldes The Councell of Nice had no such fansie of the Pope Their epistle is forged and he who forged it was not his craftes-master For one of the Fathers pretended to haue writen it is Macarius Bishop of Constantinople Whereas Constantinople had not that name yet in certaine yéeres after the date of this epistle but was called Bizantium neither was Macarius Bishop of Bizantium at that time but Alexander Moreouer they are made to request the Pope that he wil assemble the Bishops of his whole citie Which is a droonken spéech sith the Bishops of his whole citie were but one that one was himselfe Unlesse they vsed the word citie as the Pope answering them in like sort that he conferred with the Bishops of the whole citie of Italie And so it is more sober but no more séemely for the Councell of Nice Finally neither Eusebius who was at the Councell nor Rufinus nor Socrates nor Theodoret nor Sozomen nor other auncient writers doo mention any such thing Only Peter Crabbe the setter foorth of it had it out of a librarie of Friers at Coolein But wheÌ„ce had the Fryers it Hart. The Fathers of the Councell of Constantinople the second generall Councel wrote to Pope Damasus for his consent to their decrees And that is witnessed by Theodoret. Rainoldes It is and so witnessed that it ouerthroweth the Popes soueraintie which D. Stapleton would proue by it For they wrote ioyntly to Damasus Ambrose Britto Valerian Ascholius Anemie Basill and the rest of the Westerne Bishops assembled in a Councel at Rome Nor only to them but to the Emperour Theodosius Yea to Theodosius in seueral and more forcibly For they requested him to confirme and ratifie their decrees and ordinances Wherefore if the Pope haue such a supremacie whose consent and liking therof they desired what supremacie hath the Emperor whom they besought to ratifie them and to confirme them Hart. Nay your own distinction of power and authoritie dooth serue well and fitly to this of the Emperour For their decrées and ordinances of doctrine were true and of discipline good though he had not confirmed them But more would accept of them as good and true through his word countenance As we see that many doo frame themselues to Princes iudgements Wherefore it was the Emperours autoritie and credit for which they desired his confirmation of their decrées not for any soueraintie of power that he had in matters of religion Rainoldes Not for any soueraintie of power that hee had to make matters true of false or good of euill but to make his subiectes vse them as good and true being so in déede Which perhaps the Fathers of the Councell meant too But your own answere may teach you to mend your imagination of that they wrote to Pope Damasus For the doctrine of Christ which they decréed was true the discipline good though he had not consented to it But more would accept of it as good true through his agréement and allowance As we sée that manie doe follow the mindes of Bishops Wherefore it was the Popes autoritie and credit for which they desired his consent to their decrées not for any soueraintie of power that he had in matters of religion Which is plaine by their crauing not of him alone but of other Bishops to like thereof also that the Christian faith being agreed vpon and loue confirmed amongst them they might keepe the Church from schismes and dissensions Hart. All Bishops might allow the decrées of Councels by consenting to them But the Pope confirmed them in speciall sort For S. Cyrill saith of the third general Councel of Ephesus that Pope Caelestinus wrote agreeably to the Councell and confirmed all thinges that were done therein Rainoldes S. Cyrill sayth not that of Caelestinus but of Sixtus Howbeit if he had yet this would proue autoritie still and not power As Prosper noteth well that the Nestorian heresie was specially withstood by the industrie of Cyril and the authoritie of Caelestinus But these very wordes of Cyrill touching Sixtus doe ouerthrow your fansie conceaued on the Popes confirming of Councels For the Councell of Ephesus was of force and strength in Caelestinus time by your own confession Notwithstanding Sixtus who succéeded him did confirm it afterward In déede the truth dependeth neither of CouÌ„cel nor of Pope though wheÌ„ Popes Councels were good godly minded they were chosen vessels and instruments of God to set forth the truth For as Ioshua sayd to all the tribes of Israel euen to the Priests also assembled in a Councell If it seeme euill to you to serue the Lorde choose you whom you will serue whether the Gods which your Fathers serued or the Gods of the Amorites but I and my house will serue the Lord so the right faith and religion of Christ is firme of it selfe and ought to be imbraced of euery Christian with his houshold whether it please the tribes that is the Church or no. But the Church is named the piller and ground of truth in respect of men because it beareth vp the truth and confirmeth it through preaching of the word by the ministerie of Priests in the old testament and Bishops in the new whom therefore Basil termeth the pillers and ground of truth Now the more there be of these who maintaine it and the greater credit they haue amongst men the stronger and surer the truth doth séeme to be and many yéeld the sooner to it For which cause the doctrine of Barnabas and Paul though assuredly true yet was coÌ„firmed by Iames Peter and Iohn who were counted to be
and meaning of their whole sentences For the Councell of Afrike though bearing a while with the Popes claime till the Nicen canons whereby he claimed were serched yet at length condemned it as I haue shewed and of the foure generall Councels as the former two did enclose the Pope within his owne prouince or diocese at the most so did the two later of Ephâ—sus and Chalcedon confirming the decrées and canons of the former Hart. Nay doubtlesse at Chalcedon the Iudges hauing heard the former canons read sayd that they perceiued al primacie principall honour to be due to the Pope thereby Rainoldes But they added that the Patriarke of Constantinople ought to be vouchsafed of the same prerogatiues and primacie of honour As the Câ—uncell also it selfe allotted equall prerogatiues to them both ordeining therevpon that Constantinople should be magnified in ecclesiasticall matters as well as Rome and be next vnto it Wherein it is manifest that they meant preeminence of honour not of power For themselues decréed that the highest iudge of ecclesiasticall persons should be the Patriarke of the diocese or of Constantinople Wherby they gaue greater power to the Patriarke of Constantinople whom they authorised to deale in euery diocese then to the Roman Patriarke whom they tied to his own In so much that the Greekes say that all dioceses of the whole world were subiect to their Patriarke by the Councell of Chalcedon At least if the Councel haâ— an eye to power and not to honour only in willing them to be magnified yet that is a disproofe still of the Popes supremacie As you may learne by Gratian. Who séeking to proue it by the same canon renued in the Councell of Constantinople hath helped it with a negatiue and where the Councell sayd Let Constantinople be magnified as well as Rome he alleageth it let not Constantinople be magnified as well as Rome Hart. The Councell which that canon was renued in is vntruly called the sixth general Councel For they made no canons Rainoldes Yet a Councell made them in Constantinople with credit of a generall And the next generall Councell did confirme them Which thereby disproued the Popes supremacie too Yea againe the next defined of the Pope as of other Patriarkes and that vpon the ground of the famous Nicen. To be short the visible Monarchie of the Church was neuer allowed to him by any Councell generall or prouinciall vntil the East Churches were rent from the West and the Italian faction did beare the sway in Councels Hart. What meane you to say so wheras the Councell of Lateran vnder InnoceÌ„tius did approue it flatly the Patriarks of the Churches of Constantinople and Ierusalem being present Rainoldes Not the right Patriarkes I trow Though if they had bene yet might the Italians make decrées in Lateran at Rome without them But nether did that Councell approue the Popes Monarchie For the Popes Monarchie is a full and absolute soueraintie of power ouer the whole Church Wherevpon the principall proctours of it teach that not a generall Councell is aboue the Pope but the Pope aboue the CouÌ„cel For they sayth Father Robert who hold that the Councel is aboue the Pope do make him like a Duke of Venice aboue euery magistrate and senatour in seuerall not aboue the whole Senate But he is aboue the whole Church absolutely and aboue the generall Councell so that he acknowledgeth no iudge on earth aboue him Now the soueraintie of ordinarie power geuen to the Pope ouer all Churches by the Councell of Lateran vnder Innocentius was but as it were a Dukedome of Venice ouer euery Church and Bishop in seuerall not ouer the whole Church A signorie of great state but not a Popes Monarchie His Monarchie was neyther allowed by that Councell nor by any other for many ages after nay it was condemned expresly by the Councell of Constance of Basil. The first that allowed it was the Councell of Lateran vnder Leo the tenth a thousand fyue hundred and syxtéene yeres after Christ. Hart. Nay the Councel of Florence had allowed it a fourescore yeres before the Greeke and Latin Bishops subscribing both thereto Rainoldes But in such sort that your Roman reader though making the most thereof for the Popes credit was fainâ— yet to say that the Councel of Florence did not define it so expressely In truth the Greeke Bishops answered of themselues for they might not treate thereof without consent they sayd of their whole Church but of themselues they answered that the Pope ought to haue the same prerogatiues that he had before the time of their dissension Which is a great presumption that when they subscribed to more then the same it was not of themselues Chiefly sith they came besides so constrainedly to that which they did and refused to obey the Pope when they had done it But Leo the tenth with his Italian faction in Lateran defined it From whom the Uniuersitie of Parise appealed straight to a Councell and condemned his Lateran doctrine and decrée as the Uniuersities of Lâ—uan of Coolein of Vienna and of Cracouia had done before also The consent therefore of Pastours and Doctours throughout all Christendome hath disallowed the Popes Monarchie And that which the Pastours and Doctors deliuered was the religion of their Churches Whereby you may sée the truth of that I sayd that except the crew of the Italian faction all Christian Churches haue condemned his vsurped soueraintie Hart. Truly I must confesse I sée more probabilitie on your side then I did But in that you said that all Christian Churches haue condemned it and doe till this day you forgot your selfe who granted before that by the Trent-doctrine the Pope is aboue the Councell For the doctrine agreed on by the Councell of Trent which you call the of Trent-doctrine is held by Catholike Christians through the whole Church at this day Rainoldes I said that all Christian Churches haue condemned it and doe except the crew of the Italian faction Which spéeche agréeth well with that I said before of the Councell Trent For the Trent-doctrine of the Popes supremacie is that which the Italian faction at Trent did ouerbeaâ—e the rest in As Claudius Espencaeus a Diuine of Parise a Doctour of your own witnesseth saying that Ludouicus the Cardinall of Arle did complaine iustly at the Councell of Basil that looke what the Italian nation liketh of that is decreed in Councels this is that Helena which did preuaile of late at Trent Now that which the Cardinal Ludouicus spake of was that in Councels not only Bishops but Elders too should haue voices as of old time they had for if Bishops only haue voices sayth the Cardinall then shal that be done that shall seeme good to the Italian nation which alone
so well liked of the ancient Doctors that Austin saith that all things concerning faith and maners are contained in those I say not which are but which are plaine in scripture Chrysostome auoucheth in the like maner that euery thing is cleere and euident by the scriptures and whatsoeuer things are necessarie they are manifest Tertullian pronounceth that himselfe honoureth the fulnes of the scriptures and denounceth a woe to Hermogenes the heretike if he take ought from those things which are writen or adde to them Ierom in the controuersie which he had with Heluidius doth turne the reason in and out we beleeue it because we reade it we beleeue it not because we reade it not Cyrill obserueth that such of the things doon by Christ are writen as the writers thought to be sufficient for maners and doctrine Basil affirmeth that it is a manifest reuolting from the faith either to disallow any thing that is writen or to bring in any thing that is not writen to be short all the Fathers vnlesse it were when some humaine infirmity ouertooke them agrée with one minde and say with one voice that all things which God hath willed vs to beléeue and doo are comprehended in the scriptures For as touching that some of them sometimes as Basil and Epiphanius assaying all sortes of helpes against heretikes will haue certaine things to be contained in traditions whereto by the iudgement of scripture it selfe there must no lesse credit be geuen then to scripture I take not vpon me to controll them but let the Church iudge whether they considered with aduise inough those sayings of S. Paul by which they were induced perhaps to this opinion at least they séeke to prooue it For Epiphanius groundeth vpon these wordes of his to the Corinthians as I deliuered to you and I haue deliuered so in the Churches and if ye keepe it except ye haue beleeued in vaine And Basil gathereth it to be Apostolike doctrine that we must hold fast vnwriten traditions by his wordes to the Thessalonians hold the traditions which ye haue been taught either by word or by our epistle Now if S. Paul meant in both these places by deliuered and traditions his doctrine deliuered to them by word of mouth yet comprised in scripture too then must it be granted that they were deceiued who thought that vnwriten traditions were approoued by S. Pauls traditions But the former point is true that he meant so Therefore the later also is true which foloweth of it For he dooth expound it himselfe to the Corinthians considering that he writeth the summe of those things which he had deliuered and what he deliuered that he receiued he saith of the Lord and that which he receiued of the Lord is writen and in plaine termes he witnesseth himselfe to haue deliuered that vnto them which he had receiued according to the scriptures to weet that Christ died for our sinnes according to the scriptures and that he was buried and that hee rose the third day according to the scriptures As for the Thessalonians what the things were which he deliuered vnto them by word it is shewed in the actes of the Apostles where we reade that Paul being come to Thessalonica taught the Iewes out of the scriptures that it behooued Christ to suffer and to rise again from the dead and that this Iesus whom said he I preach to you is the Christ. In which words it is opened both what Paul deliuered to the Thessalonians by word and from whence from whence out of the scriptures what that it behooued Christ to suffer and rise againe and that Iesus is the Christ. The tradition therefore which Paul dooth exhort the Thessalonians to hold is the tradition of the gospell as Ambrose calleth it very wel Which the reason also doth proue that Ambrose noteth that Paul doth there gather God hath raysed you to saluation by our gospell therefore stand ye fast and hold the traditions which ye haue been taught either by word or by our epistle as if he should say see therefore that ye stand stedfast in the gospell which I as well by word of mouth as by writing haue deliuered to you Thus S. Pauls traditions are the gospel deliuered And the gospel I hope is writen Therfore S. Pauls traditions are writen But the saluation of the Thessalonians was contained in the traditions which S. Paul had taught them by word by epistle The scripture then informeth the Church of so much as is necessary to saluation Wherfore auant heretikes out of the schoole of Christ ye Valentinians Marcionites and Gnostikes who as Irenaeus reporteth did deny that the truth may be learned out of the holy scriptures by them who know not tradition Auant Iewes by whom the Cabala of the Rabbins auant Montanists by whom the new Comforter auant Anabaptists by whom reuelations auant ye Trent-councell-fathers and ye Papist◠by whom traditions beside scripture are falsly reputed to be necessarie to saluation Our saluation is Christ the way to saluation faith the guide of the way scripture whereof the light and lanterne directeth our steps the food nourisheth our soules the preseruatiue keepeth vs from diseases the sword killeth our enimies the plaister healeth our woundes in a word the safe conduit doth bring vs vnto eternall life The second Conclusion which I am next to treate of doth vndertake to shew that the militant Church may erre both in maners and in doctrine In maners against the Puritans who chalenging to them selues a singular kinde of holinesse denyed repentance to such as had fallen In doctrine against the Papists who for a defense and shield of their errours hold forth this bugge to fright vs out of our wits The Church can not erre Here that the truth may be the better opened the name of Church must be distinguished For as Thrasylaus a frantike man amongst the Greekes whensoeuer he saw any ships ariue into the hauen at Athens thought them all his owne and tooke an inuentory of their wares and met them with great ioy after the like maner certaine frantike Romanists wheresoeuer they see the name of the Church in the holy scripture they take it to be theirs and booke the treasures of it and boast thereof as of their owne crying the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it But to remoue these frantike men out of the hauen and deliuer the marchants ech their owne ships set the Church it selfe in possession of the Church the name of the Church in Gréeke the natiue language of the new testament cometh from a verbe which signifyeth to call out thereby to note a company called out as you would say So that the Church of Christ be tokeneth a company called out from amongst the multitude of other men to life euerlasting through faith in Christ Iesus But they who are
called out of the refuse and filth of mankinde to this state and honour are not of one sort all For same of them are called effectually and doo come some that are called doo not yéeld them selues obedient to the calling They whom God hath chosen are called and doo come they who being called come not are not chosen That spéech of our Sauiour Christ doth touch them both many are called but few are chosen The many that are called are named the Church but to speake distinctly for instructions sake the visible Church because we sée the companies of men which are called to the faith of Christ which professe that they would enioy eternall life The few that are chosen are named the church also but the church inuisible not for that we sée not those whom God hath chosen but because we can not discerne by sight who be the chosen only the Lord knoweth who are his Now of this Church which we call inuisible parte is in present possession of heauenly glory part not hauing yet attained thereunto abideth on the earth That part which is entred into the ioy of their Lord is commonly termed the triumphant Church the other which lyeth in campe and wayteth for the victory is called the Church militant But as it falleth out in campes of worldly warfare that eyther for couetousnes or feare or fauour there are with faithfull souldiers such as are vnfaithfull some who neuer minde to come into the field some who will betray their felowes to their foes some readie to stirre vp the souldiers to mutinies some perhaps that traiterously will set vpon their owne captaine so the militant church which hath none but faithfull souldiers of Christ in that respect that it is matched with the Church triumphant yet while it abideth in the campe of warfare there hang about it slippâ—ry marchants who pretend that they also are of Christes souldiers but vnder souldiers coates they beare the heartes of enimies being such as they of whom Bernard saith They are in Christes liuery but they do seruice vnto Antichrist Sith therefore to discerne the faithfull souldiers from vnfaithful it belongeth to him alone who shal one day seuer the shéepe froÌ„ the goats we measuring a souldier by the profession that hée maketh othe that bindeth him to warfare call that the militant Church which is inrolled billed to serue vnder Christ part wherof doth faithfully sight the Lords battailes part making shew to serue him doo fight the battailes of the deuill And this is the militant Church which I meane in the point proposed the militant Church may erre both in maners and in doctrine To the ripping vp whereof we must obserue that it is proper to God alone by nature to be holy true perfit and free from errours as contrari-wise man by nature is vncleane a lyer vnperfit prone to deceiue and be deceiued For euery man is a lyer God alone is true And none is good but God he is naught therefore that is a méere man But of grace God bestoweth vpon man the gift of perfection holines and truth as it were a beame of the sunne shining into a house of clay to giue vs light and warmth Howbeit this beame though the more the sunne of righteousnes asceÌ„deth and cometh daily néerer vs the greater light and warmth it yeldeth neuerthelesse it shal not ouershine vs with full light of truth and warmth of holines vntill we be taken out of our houses of clay and go into the open heauen vnto God The militant Church hath the beames of the sunne but as in a house not in the open heauen sometimes it is shadowed and made dimme with darknes sometimes it waxeth faint through cold The triumphant Church hath the sunne it selfe not within doores but a broad not on earth but in heauen where neither any darknes doth hinder the light nor any cold abate the warmth Thus it is made proper to the Church triumphant to be without all spot as the spowse is told in the song of Salomon by her welbeloued speaking thus vnto her thou being all faire my loue and no spot in thee shalt come with me from Lebanon O spouse with me from Lebanon For thereby wée learne that as soone as the Church being fully cleansed from spot of all errours shall haue attained that excellent fairenesse and perfection whereto she is fyned by litle and litle in this life she is taken out of Lebanon as you would say the forest of this world and ioyned to her bridegrome in that blessed mariage to enioy eternall glory with God But that excellent fairenesse she atteineth not while she warfareth on the earth The militant Church therefore is not fully cleane from spot of all errours Shée shall be a Church not hauing spot or wrincle when shée shall be glorious as Paul declareth to the Ephesians Wherefore sith to promise that gloriousnesse in this life is to sound the triumph before the conquest be gotten it foloweth that the Church shall haue spot and wrincle so long as she doth liue in warfare But ouer and besides all this because the Church while it is in warfare hath vnfaithfull souldiours in it amongst the faithfull who as they are vnlike either to other so is their case vnlike too therefore as the men that are in the Church so the kindes of errours must be discerned and distinguished that it may the better appéere to what errours what part of the Church is subiect To erre then is to swarue and turne out of the way which God by the word of life the holy scripture hath willed vs to walke in Which way sith it containeth soundnes of doctrine and godlines of maners as I haue shewed before therevpon it foloweth that they who offend either in maners or in doctrine doo erre and go out of the way Wée erre in maners therefore when we doo ill we erre in doctrine when we iudge falsely Now these errours of the minde are of like condition in comparison of life eternall as are diseases of the body in comparison of life temporall So that as amongst diseases of the body some are curable some are deadly curable I call them whereof we recouer deadly whereof we dye in like sort amongst the errours of the minde some are curable which doo not bereue vs of saluation some deadly which bring vs to euerlasting death In the Church militant they whom God hath chosen may erre in maners and doctrine but their errour is curable they can not erre to death But they who are called onely and not chosen may erre in maners and doctrine euen with a deadly errour which neuer shall be cured That the chosen may erre in maners and doctrine it is euident by the Apostles For they did erre in maners when they forsooke Christ at the time that Iudas the renegate betrayed him They did erre in doctrine when they thought the kingdome of Christ to be not heauenly
and our Church doth hold The third Councell of Carthage which therein the Councel of Trent subscribeth to did adde the bookes of Maccabes the rest of the apocrypha to the old Canon The Councel of Nice appointed boundes and limits as wel for the Bishop of Romes iurisdiction as for other Bishops The Councell of Lateran gaue the soueraintie of ordinarie power to the Church of Rome ouer al other Churches The Councell of Constance decréed that the Councell is aboue the Pope and made the Papall power subiect to generall Councels Which thing did so highly displease the Councell of Florence that it vndermined the Councell of Basill and guilefully surprised it for putting that in â—re against Pope Eugenius Upon the which pointes it must needes be graunted that one side of these generall Councels did erre vnlesse we will say that thinges which are contrarie may be true both Wherefore to make an end sith it is apparant by most cléere proofes that both the chosen and the called both the flockes and the Pastours both in seuerall by them selues and assembled together in generall Councels may erre I am to conclude with the good liking I hope of such as loue the truth that the militant Church may erre in maners and doctrine In the one point whereof concerning maners I defend our selues against the malicious sclanders of the Papists who charge the Church of England with the heresie of Puritans impudently and falsly In the other concerning doctrine I doo not touch the walles of Babilon with a light finger but raze from the very ground the whole mount of the Romish Synagogue Whose intolerable presumption is reproued by the third Conclusion too wherein it resteth to be shewed that the holy scripture is of greater credit autoritie then the Church And although this be so manifestly true that to haue proposed it onely is to haue proued it yet giue me leaue I pray to proue it briefly with one reason I will not trouble you with many All the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth some wordes of the Church be the words of errour But he that telleth the truth alwayes is more to be credited then he that lyeth sometimes Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more then is the Church That all the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth it is out of controuersie For the whole scripture is inspired of God and God can neither deceiue nor be deceiued That some wordes of the Church be the wordes of errour if any be not perswaded perhaps by the reasons which I haue brought already let him heare the sharpese and most earnest Patrone of the Church confessing it Andradâ—us Payua a Doctor of Portugall the best learned man in my opinion of all the papists reherseth certaine pointes wherein Councels also may erre euen generall Councels in so much that he saith that the very generall Councel of Chalcedon one of those four first which Gregorie professeth him selfe to receiue as the foure bookes of the holy Gospell yet Andradius saith that this Councell erred in that it did rashly and without reason these are his own wordes ordeine that the Church of Constantinople should be aboue the Churches of Alexandria and Antiâ—â—he Neither doth he onely say that the Councell of Chalcedon erred and contraried the decrees of the Nicen Cuncell but he addeth also a reason why Councels may erre in such cases to weete because they folow not the secret motion of the holy ghost but idle Blastes of vaine reportes and mens opinions which deceiue oft A Councell then may folow some times the deceitfull opinions of men and not the secret motion of the holy ghost Let the Councels then giue place to the holy scriptures whereof no part is vttered by the spirit of man but all by the spirit of God For if some cauiller to shift of this reason shall say that we must not account of that errour as though it were the iudgement of the generall Councell because the Bishop of Rome did not allow it and approue it I would request him first of all to weigh that a generall Councell and assemblie of Bishops must néedes be distinguished from this and that particular Bishop so that what the greater part of them ordeineth that is ordeined by the Councell next to consider that the name of Church may be giuen to an assemblis of Bishops and a Councell but it can not be giuen to the Bishop of Rome lastly to remember that the Bishop of Rome Honorius the first was condemned of heresie by the generall Councell of Constantinople allowed and approued by Agatho Bishop of Rome Wherefore take the name of Church in what sense soeuer you list be it for the company either of Gods chosen or of the called too or of the guides and Pastours or be it for the Bishop of Rome his owne person though to take it so it seemeth very absurd the Bishop of Rome him selfe if he were to be my iudge shall not be able to deny vnlesse his forhead be of adamant but that some of the Churches words are wordes of errour Now if the Bishop of Rome and Romanistes them selues be forced to confesse both that the Church saith some things which are erroneous and that the scripture saith nothing but cleere truth shall there yet be found any man either so blockishly vnskilfull or so frowardly past shame as that he dare affirme that the Church is of greater credit and autoritie then the holy scripture Pighius hath doon it in his treatise of the holy gouernment of the church Where though he in 〈◊〉 â—â—llify with gallant salues his cursed spéech yet to build the tower of his Church and Antichrist with the ruines of Christ and of the holy scripture first he saith touching the writings of the Apostles that they were giuen to the church not that they should rule our faith and religion but that they should bee ruled rather and then he concludeth that the autoritie of the church is not onely not inferiour not onely equall nay it is superiour also after a sort to the autoritie of the scriptures Plinie reporteth that there was at Rome a certaine diall set in the field of Flora to note the shadowes of the sunne the notes and markes of which diall had not agreed with the sunne for the space of thirty yeares And the cause thereof was this as Plinie saith that either the course of the sunne was disordered and changed by some meanes of heauen or els the whole earth was slipt away from her centre The Church of Rome séemeth to be very like this diall in the field of Flora. For she was placed in the Roman territorie to shew the shadowes of the sunne euen of the sunne of righteousnes that is of Christ but her notes and markes haue not agreed with Christ these many yeares togither Not that
there is any faute in the diall I meane in the Church for that can not be as Pighius proueth pretily but because perhaps either Christ him selfe hath tooke an other course and is altered I know not by what changeablenes of God or els the whole scripture is slipt from the point in the which it stood But let vs right woorshipfull who know that the dials and clockes doo mysse often but the course of the sunne is certaine and constant let vs make more account of the sunne then of a diall of heauen then of Plinie of the Zodiake circle then of the field of Flora of God then of men of Christ then of Pighius of the holy scripture then of the church For God forbid there should be any amongst vs so beastly a monster in the shape of man as to set vp Antichrist in the temple of God aboue God and to attribute more to any either man or multitude of men then to the Lord of maiestie But so doo they no dout who haue the Church in greater regard then the scripture For the voice of the scripture is the voice of God the voice of the Church is the voice of men Then if it be impious to set vp men aboue God doubtlesse to set vp the Church aboue the scripture it is Antichristian Nor yet doo I deny that the Churches voice is sometimes the voice of God For in appeasing the offenses and reprouing the sinnes of brethren if thy brother saith Christ refuse to heare the church let him be to thee as a heathen man and a Publican But the holy spirit that is the spirit of truth doth speake both alone and alwaies in the scripture An humaine spirit that is a spirit of errour hath a part sometimes in the spéech of the Church Both which pointes I haue proued by the word of God the euidence of the thing and the confessions of our aduersaries Why doo we not then acknowledge that the royall prerogatiue of this priuilege to bee altogither exempt from all errour is due to scripture onely and confesse as Austin doth against the Donatistes that it is peculiar and proper to the holy canonicall scripture that all things which are writen therein be true and right but the letters and writings of Bishops as of Cyprian yea the very Councels not prouinciall onely but also full and generall haue often times somewhat that may be amended I for my part doo gladly both allow this sentence of Austin and iudge it woorthy to be allowed as agréeable to the trueth And therefore I conclude the point which I proposed that the holy scripture is of greater credit and autoritie then the church Thus you haue my iudgement right learned Inceptors touching the Conclusions which are to be disputed of opened in more wordes perhaps then your wisedome in fewer then the weight of the things required But I haue waded so farre in the opening of them as I thought the Proctors might wel giue me leaue by the straitnes of time As for that which néedeth to be discussed farther I will assay to open it as well as I can if occasion serue when the aduersarie arguments shall bée proposed in disputation CONCLVSIONS HANDLED IN DIVINITIE SCHOOLE THE III. OF NOVEMBER 1579. 1 The holy Catholike Church which we beleeue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen HE who the sea the earth the skyes made by his worde of nought Who by eternall power doth guide and rule all things he wrought Did choose from out the sonnes of men before the world was pight Such as with blessed angels aye should ioy his blisfull sight The Iewes are not the onely men that make this holy band But they are souldiers chosen out of euery toung and land Where on the south the mightie prince of Abissines doth raigne Where on the north the coasts do lye that looke to Charles waine Where Phaebus with his glistring beames doth raise the dawning light And sinking in the westerne seas doth bring the darksome night The fleâ—h can not by natures light such hidden truthes pursue But Christian faith by light of grace this Catholike Church doth vew 2 The Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church nor a sound member of the catholike Church THey do not well who shut the world within the Roman boundes Christs Church is spred through al the earth without restraint of mounds Rome was I grant a faithfull branch of this renowned vine Rome was a myrrour that in grace in zeale in loue did shine Rome was commended farre and wide for faith in Christ his name For Peters doctrine taught and kept Rome was of worthy fame But where Rome was now ruines are The Capitoll is sâ—ooried The grouÌ„d is bathde in Christians blood whoÌ„ Romish woolues haue wooried Her Churches are with idoles stained her guides with maners vile Whom lustfull traines and wicked hearts and beds vnchast defile O thrise vnhappie Babylon that Sions spoyle doost woorke Under the noble name and hue of Sion wouldest thou lurke 3 The reformed churches in England Scotland France Germany and other kingdomes common wealthes haue seuered them selues lawfully from the church of Rome A Place of haunt for deuils and sprits is Babylon waxt saith Iohn Art thou desirous to be saued from Babylon be gon The names and trickes of Babylon Rome on it selfe doth take Then if ye séeke eternall life sée that ye Rome forsake This haue the noble Germanes done bidding the Pope a dieu England hath followed Germany Romes thraldome to eschew Beholde the Lord hath called on the Flemish French and Dane And Scotland hath escaped eke the Papall deadly bane O that the remnant of the world by faith to Christ were knit And Princes to the Prince of all their scepters would submit Build vp O Lord O father deare the church and Sions for t That vnto thée from Babylon thy people may resort AMongst many singular benefits of God bestowed vpon our Vniuersitie fathers and brethren which may be very fruitfull to the aduancing of Gods glory and saluation of the Church if they be well husbanded there is scarse any more excellent in my iudgement then that it is ordered that the truth giuen by inspiration of God and registred in the Scripture should be not expounded onely by publike lectures but also proued by disputations A woorthy and profitable ordinance no doubt and most méete for schooles which serue to traine vp Christians that is for schooles of God For what can there be more pretious then the truth which teacheth vs the knowledge of God the way to life And what more conuenient to strengthen the truth then to haue it proued by discussing the reasons brought of both partes For as golde being digged out of the veines of the earth is seuered from earthy substance mixt therewith by the mettall-workemen knocking it together and as husbandmen are wont to sift wheat from the chaffe by winowing that it may be fit to nourish the body
so the golden treasure of truth by striking reasons as it were together is parted from the dregs which it hath not gotten froÌ„ the holy veines whence it is digged but from mens vessels wherein it is receiued and the corne that is sowen for the foode of the soule is winowed with the winde that bloweth from the holy Ghost by the husbandmen of heauen that it may be cleaner from the chaffe of errours The chéerefull vndertaking and faithfull performing of the which duetie the common wealth may chalenge at our hands of right specially for that it hath indowed and furnished this noble Vniuersitie and place of exercise of good learning with priuileges with houses with lands in ample sort to this intent chiefly that it might be a nurserie for Pastours of the Church For both it is méete that Pastours of the Church should be not onely able to edifie the faithfull with sound and wholesome doctrine but also to conuince them who gainesay it as S. Paul witnesseth and we shall be able to conuince gainesayers so much the more easily fitly and effectually if first we practise that in a warlike exercise which we may do after when we shall make warre with enemies in déede Now it there be any thing wherein it is very conuenient and behoofefull both for Christian souldiers to be well practised against the mischieuous attempts of their enemies and the golde of Christian truth to be throughly clensed from the drosse the wheate from the chaâ—â—e by the paines of husbandmen and workmen of the church doubtlesse thâ—s which I haue chosen to debate of is so profitable being knowen so perillous vnknowen that we haue great cause to bend all our wittes vnto the serch knowledge of it For there haue assailed the Church now this great while and scatteredly there range they of whom Christ hath warned vs to beware whom Peter did foretell of that they should be in the Church I meane false teachers and false prophets who comming to vs in the clothing of sheepe yet being rauening woolues in their hearts and déedes naming them selues the Church as if they were the onely sheepe of Christ do teach damnable heresies and blaspheme the way of truth To spred the infection of the which pestilence farther amongst the faithfull as Rabsakeh the Assyrian when he did sollicit Ierusalem to fall from God did vse the name of God against the people of God so that Romish Rabsakeh the enemie of the new Ierusalem doth vse the Churches name against the children of the Church He saith that Christians ought to beleeue the Catholike Church and that no Church is Catholike at all but the church of Rome and that we therefore who haue forsaken it haue fallen away from the communion of the catholike Church moreouer that there can not be any hope of saluation out of the Church and therefore that all who eyther leaue the Church of Rome or ioine them selues to any of our reformed Churches must needes be lost for euer This faire but false visard of the catholike Church doth leade many simple men out of the way who shunne the catholike faith while they are afraide least they should fal from the faith dare not ioyne them selues with the Church of Christ least they should be seuered from the coÌ„munion of the Church So that we may iustly say to the Bishops of Rome at this day that which a Roman Bishop did write long ago to the Bishops of Iewry Ye thinke your selues to deale for the faith O ye Romans ye go against the faith ye do arme your selues with the name of the church ye fight against the church Wherfore being perswaded that the handling hereof would auaile much to ease the ignorance of the vnskilfull and quaile the stubbornnesse of our aduersaries and furder which is the chiefe point the saluation of the elect I for the duety or rather more then duty which I owe to the church of Christ resolued with my selfe hauing such opportunitie of disputation offered to treate of the state of the Catholike of the Roman and of our owne Church The rather for that the foundations of this woorke are already layed in our former disputation wherein it was shewed out of the word of truth that the scripture teacheth all things needefull to saluation that the church may erre while it is militant on the earth that the autoritie of the church is subiect to the scripture Which things being setled it will be the easier to build thereupon that which I haue purposed I meane to lay open the nature and condition of the catholike church the corruption of the Roman and the soundnes of ours But before I enter into the opening of these pointes which I will doo by Gods grace briefly as the time sincerely as the charge requireth first I must desire and craue of you all my hearers most earnestly not that you will giue mée an attentiue eare which of your owne accord ye doo but that with your eare you will bring a minde desirous to embrace the truth In Athenes there were iudges called Areopagites whose order was such as the Heathens write and commend them for it that they bid the pleader pleade without preambles and made him to be sworne that he should tell them no vntruth them selues did heare the cause with great silence while it was pleading and iudged of it with great vprightnes when they had heard it Such Areopagites would I haue you brethren in this our Christian Athenes shew your selues to me warde I wil declare the matter as a pleader ought simply and sincerely without preambles though vnbidden and without vntruthes though vnsworne Giue you as iudges should doo fauourable audience without a partiall preiudice of foreconceiued errors and sentence with the truth without corrupt affections according vnto right and reason And I would to God you would heare me in such sort as Denys the Areopagite heard Paul the Apostle whose words of the vnknowen God he beleeued perswaded by the light of truth though against that opinion which hée had foreconceiued God the father of lightes and autour of truth who gaue Paul a fiery tongue to lighten and kindle the mindes of his hearers who moued the hart of Denys to sée the light of godlines and to be set on fier with it vouchsafe with the direction of his holy spirit both to guide my tongue that it may serue to open the mysteries of his word and to soften your hartes that the séede of life may fall vpon a fruitfull ground Open our eyes O Lord and we shall sée giue vs fleshy heartes and we shall assent Let thy spirit leade vs into all truth and let thy word be a lanterne to our feete that wée may beléeue the things which thou teachest and doo the things which thou commaundest to the euerlasting glory of thy goodnes and our owne saluation Amen In the treatie of the matter that I set in hand with