Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	apostle_n	church_n	tradition_n	2,130	5	9.1915	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A82522	The defence of sundry positions & scriptures for the Congregational-way justified: or An answer to an epistle written by Mr. Richard Hollingworth, unto S.E. and T.T. wherein he (in many particulars) chargeth them with injurious dealing against God, and against himselfe, in that booke of theirs, called A defence of sundry positions, &c. Containing a vindication from such charges and aspersions so laid upon them. As also a briefe answer to his large (if not unreasonable) demands, to have scripturall, or rationall answ. given to his 112 queries. / By Sam: Eaton teacher Tim: Taylor pastor [brace] of [brace] the church at Duckenfield in Cheshire. Published according to order.	Eaton, Samuel, 1596?-1665.; Taylor, Timothy, 1611 or 12-1681.	1646 (1646)	Wing E120; Thomason E346_4; ESTC R24943	33,505	50

yet we are complained of that we have not clearely manifested the Position as we have already shewed And how should this be done otherwise than by answering your Examination unlesse it be by new Arguments And what are Arguments worth if not backed with scriptures and yet when besides our answer to your examination we adde some short dissertation upon the Point this is counted as a By matter to your intent in the preface 2. Your intent as it appeares both in your Tytle Page the Preface and the Booke it selfe was not onely to vindicate the scriptures but to discover the supposed weaknesse of the doctrine contained in the Positions And why should not we as well assert the doctrine as vindicate the scriptures which some of them cull'd out by you are the weakest and most feeble parts of the proofe made by us as we have told you 3. You could wish you say We might keepe close to the Scriptures and Positions alleadged till they be one way or other cleared and then we may more orderly proceede to other scriptures and arguments and yet you that cannot endure any addition of scripture or reason applyed to the question stated more fully to our owne sense than they are in the Positions drawn up by you require us in the meane time to give scripturall and rationall answers to no lesse then an hundred and twelve Queres whereof some of them are Nihil ad Rhombum independants we are assured in the businesse of controversie betwixt us The fourth Charge that you make against us is That we doe not answer directly but obliquely and evadingly in sundry places as where say you I alledge that the Apostles never taught or practised to gather or separate one part of this true Church and and another part of that especially persons whom themselves converted not to make a purer Church You answer of another thing which was never denyed viz. The Apostles both taught and practised the separating of some Jewes from other Jewes and gathered them into a Christian Church while yet the Jewish Church was not dissolved but was a Church of God Answ We are so farre from answering obliquely or evadingly in this place that we dare be bold to say that no reply can more front and diametrically oppose such a confused answer as yours i● then this of ours doth We did observe that the supposed strength of your answer was couched in the four sinewes of it 1. We thought you deserted it as a thing dissonant to the doctrine and practise of the Apostles to gather some Christians from others to make a purer Church 2. We conceived that the truth of the Churches from which persons are gathered was that which you imagined made the gathering of them in such sort to beare no conformity with the Apostles doctrine or practise And we conceived there was this implication in it that it might be lawfull and suteable to the doctrine and practise of the Apostles to gather beleevers out of a false Church but not out of a true 3. We considered that this might have some strength in your thoughts that there is no such thing mentioned in the doctrine and practise of the Apostles as the gathering of one Church out of many 4. That you imagined that there was some strength in it to prove our gathering of Churches unlawfull because the persons gathered were such as we converted not Having thus anatomized in our thoughts your Answer we addressed our selves to discover the weaknesse and falliblenesse of all these Exceptions and we began with the second because it was most generall and so descended to the rest which were more particular And First we shewed that the truth of a Church is not that that can make it sinfull or unlawfull to gather or take in the members of it into the union of other Churches For then it should have beene unlawfull for the Primitive Churches to have gathered in the beleeving Jewes into their Churches whilest that Church remained true But this say we was the doctrine and practise of the Apostles Now what can be more point blanck opposite to this part of your answer then this Hence also our conclusion hath the strength of this argument in it If it be not unlawfull to withdraw from one Church that is true then it is not unlawfull to gather out of twenty or an hundred i. e. because they are true Object But say you this was not a Christian Church Answ We consider it not as Jewish but under the notion of truth as it was a true Church Object Nor are the Reformed Churches and Ministers to be compared with the then Jewish Church and Priests thereof Answ You shuffle in the Ministers of the one and the Priests of the other impertinently We have onely to doe with the Churches and we say the Christian Churches might be compared with the then Jewish Church under the notion we consider it in viz. in point of truth For the Jewish Church was a true Church as well as the Christian Churches Object It was but one say you and you should shew gathering out of severall Churches Answ Doe we not shew it thus If it be lawfull to gather out of one true Church then it is lawfull upon the same ground to gather out of many Object But say you the Apostles gathering was onely of those Jewes they converted to Christianity from unconverted Jewes and you should shew the gathering of Christians converted by others from other Christians Answ This also we have shewed at large clearing also the former objection together with it by severall arguments and two places of scripture viz. 1 Cor. 5 6. 2 Cor. 13 10. In our second third fourth fift and sixt particulars and these in opposition to the first and third particulars wherein we thought you placed the strength of your answer Object But you should shew the gathering of Christians converted by others from other Christians converted as well as they and possibly from those persons by whom they were converted Answ And this we have fully cleared pag. 10. from the practise of the Apostles and Primitive Christians None but an Emperick would censure a Physician that he doth not cure all diseafes with one Dosse Shall our reply be judged oblique evading insufficient because it is not a bush to stop every gap with though it be most punctually opposite to that part of your answer against which we levelled it Object But say you that Church was then by Gods Commandement to be dissolved and many Churches to be built upon its ruins and therefore doth no more warrant the building of one Christian Church upon the ruine of other Christian Churches than the Parliaments Commission if there were such a one to the Inhabitants of Derby hundred to take downe Lathamhouse to build them houses of doth warrant any one of the Inhabitants to take as many good stones as they can come by out of this and that and the other neighbours house concerning which

THE DEFENCE Of sundry POSITIONS SCRIPTURES FOR THE Congregational-way JUSTIFIED OR An Answer to an Epistle written by Mr. Richard Hollingworth unto S. E. and T. T. wherein he in many particulars chargeth them with injurious dealing against God and against himselfe in that Booke of theirs called A Defence of sundry Positions c. CONTAINING A Vindication from such Charges and aspersions so laid upon them As also a briefe Answer to his large if not unreasonable demands to have Scripturall or rationall Answ given to his 112. Queries By SAM EATON Teacher ●IM TAYLOR Pastor of the Church at Duckenfield in Cheshire Published according to Order LONDON Printed by Matthew Simmons for Henry Overton and are to be sold at his shop in Popes-head-Alley 1646. To the Seeker of Truth in Sincerity DIRECTIONS CHRISTIAN BROTHER that lookest hereon and art willing and desirous through Christ to search after and to receive the love of the Truth that thou mayest be saved and mayest further know and worship our God and Father in Christ acceptably in spirit and in truth to glorifie his Name before men wherein thou hast prophaned and polluted it as we have done by conforming with the times to the precepts and ●raditions of men Ponder with us for thy direction these particulars 1. That the Mystery of truth is not manifest to the World the generality but to the Saints who are dead to the World John 14. 22. 17. 6. Col. 1. 26. 2 20. 3 3 2. Hence this is found amongst them that are most full of love Gal. 5 6. John 13. 35. He that dwells or abides in that love abides in God and God in him 1 John 4. 16. 3. Hence it 's amongst them that to others so doe as they would be done unto Mat. 7. 12. And that whatsoever they would not should be done to themselves doe not it to others Act. 15 20. 29. Old Transl Margin v. 20. Regim v. 29. Complut Regius in Naturali Graec. vetust optimis aitinsig Selden D● Anno Civile c. 21. De Jure Gent. li 7. c. 12. 4. It 's amongst the pitifull That yee seeke to the fatherlesse and widowes in their affliction and keepe themselves unspotted from the world John 1 27. 5. This Wis●dome is not from below but from above and is first pure then peaceable gentle well-perswaded or rightly obedient full of mercy Jam. 3. 17. 6. It 's amongst such as living godly in Christ Jesus suffer persecution for his Names fake 2 Tim. 3. 12. John 15. 19 16 33. Mat. 5. 10 11. Now if thou hardly kn●west such Say to him whom thy soul loveth O tell mee where thou feedest where thou makest thy flocks lye down Cant. 1. 7. and he will give true wisedome to thee to dis●●rne of persons and things that d●ffer Yet expect not a Rose without a pricke or spot In many things we slip all If any slip not in word he is perfect Jam. 3. 2. Expect therefore to finde this amongst them that in their generall aime and course walke nearest according to that Rule Gal. 6. 16. And be a doer of the will of God as far as thou knowest John 7. 17. and mainly be taken up with the knowledge Grace and love of Jesus Christ that thy heart may be established therewith Heb. 13. 8 9. For our parts shame may cover our faces that we have walked after as men but henceforth our aime it so to walke as becometh the Gospel Cause it is of griefe to our soules that there should be Oppositions between our Brethren and us when the Canaanite i. depressing Merchants and the breach-making Perizite are in the Land Gen. 13. 7 8. The truth is after long seeking our God and oft discussing with our Brethren we peaceably set upon Reformation Practising what we were convinced was most agreeable to the Word of God Our Brother began against us Printing against this our practise Yet we forbore long till we saw that by our silence not onely we but Truth suffered then were we forced to print Our just Defence of sundry Positions And had he there staied we had now abode silent who by printing this may each of us seeme 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 unwise imprudent as Paul said oft of himselfe being forced so to write in his owne and the Truths Defence 2. Cor. 12. 11. 11. And truely had it been our persons onely that suffered though therein we share deeply by this Late Printed Epistle with certaine Queries being for an Answer to our Defence we had in this kinde held our peace although our Brother could not easily repaire our Damage But seeing Truth now suffers a second time by our so long forbearing we are againe enforced to this seeming folly or imprudence And by our viewing and pondering our Brothers angry bitter expressions if we in any passage seeme to any to have learned some of his wayes which we confesse we are subject unto Pro. 22. 25. Let our weakenesse remaine with us and not be charged on the Cause or Truth that we maintaine We are learning not to render evill for evill or railing for railing 1 Pet. 3. 9. and hope we shall more fully be taught of God therein Christian Reader If thou hast read our Brothers Epistle we intreat thee to have one eare for this our Answer thereto remembring what the wiseman said He that is first in his owne cause seemeth just but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him Prov. 18. 17. Consider what is said and the Lord give thee and us understanding in all things 2 Tim. ● 7. Amen THE DEFENCE OF Sundry Positions and Scriptures for the Congregational-way JUSTIFYED Reverend and beloved Brother YOu have saluted us with a querulous and Apologeticall Epistle a querulous in reference to us and Apologeticall in reference to your selfe And with an 112 Queries to all which you require us to give rationall and scripturall Answers We will first take your Epistle into consideration and afterwards debate what is meete to be said in reference to your Queries And first we will consider the justnesse of those charges that you lay upon us Secondly Whether you have acquitted your self from those charges you say are laid upon you The charges you make against us may be referred to seven Sect. 1 heads 1. That we unjustly charge you of provoking us to be your Antagonist in print pag. 3. 2. That there is a difference betwixt our Title page and the text pag. 8 9. 3. That our pretending to prove some positions practises by other scriptures and arguments as to your intent expressed in the preface is a by-matter pag 10. 4. That we doe not answer directly but obliquely and evadingly pag 10 11. 5. That we discover too much willingnesse to quarrell at your expressions pag 11. 6. That contrary to rule and reason when we should make good the proofe of the Position from the Text alledged we call to you to prove the contrary pag. 12 7. That

they gave no such Command Answ You lately found fault with an argument of ours because it was a Comparatis alleadging that allusions and Comparisons are not argumentative if allusions and Comparisons were not capable of a better symmetrie and proportion then this of yours we should not onely not yeeld them to be argumentative but we should disavow and discard them as not illustrative For though it was not our intent as we said to answer all the branches of your objections with this one instance but onely that that deceives its strength from the truth of Churches and therefore your triumph out-running your victory might well have beene spared when you say your not bringing a more punctuall and more pertinent proofe argues either an implicite confession of the truth of my answer or inability to oppose it and though we have brought other punctuall and pertinent proofes which are above the reach of your instance yet though all were as you would beare the world in hand your Allegorie wants that due proportion that should render it illustrative much more argumentative For First it is not the practise of Congregationall members or Churches to take any much lesse as many good members as they can come by out of this and that and the other neighbouring Churches concerning which God hath given no Command that those persons should leave those Churches For so your comparison should be framed to make it runne paralell with the case Nay the Congregationall members make it their scope to take in none but those that having righteously withdrawne themselves from other Churches doe voluntarily tender themselves to communion with them that so they may enjoy those Ordinances purely with the corruption of which they were not onely polluted but endangered before And that they may enjoy other Ordinances purchased for their speciall edification by the precious bloud of Christ which their soules languished in the want of whilest they were some of them as members in the line of Parochiall-Communication Once more it is the scope and end of Congregationall members and Churches if we understand them aright sure we are it is our owne desire and practise to receive in no members but from such Churches in which we have no ground of hope in sight for a reformation in any tollerable proportion of time all of us having expressed the offence given us by Parochiall disorders to private brethren because it would have beene interpreted a disturbance of the Churches peace for private persons to speake publiquely against the received practise of the Church And some of us who by our calling were better enabled having not onely in vaine witnessed against the Leaven with which we saw the Churches leavened but also fruitlesly waited a long time for redresse of present greivances when there was no hope left have withdrawne 3. If God by meanes of this present happy Parliament wherein next under God is our present hope or by other should worke such a reformation that we might comfortably joyne with Churches meeting neerer to our habitations then our owne we should be willing for our parts and we beleeve the same of all our brethren to lay downe by mutuall consent our Covenant and fall into fellowship in severall other Churches especially where we were sometimes members respectively 4. It supposeth the Churches from which our members have withdrawne have as good right to hold their members as well as any man in Derby hundred hath to with-hold the stones of his house from those that without a just power endeavour to take them away which how you will make out seeing that you hold no other tie but the boundaries and limits of the Parish or Chappelry do so fervently dispute against expresse agreements and Covenants we understand not Yet if the waies and walking of Parish Churches were such as tended to the edification of the members and no just cause appeare of their removall or withdrawing we should not contest with you about it But if either visible wicked members be admitted to the Lords Supper without hope of redresse or the dispensation of the Lords Supper and execution of the power of the Keys and other Ordinances be wanting without hope of redresse we conceive they have no more power to with-hold such a member from joyning to another Church for his spirituall better accomdation than a Master hath to with-hold his Servant from removing to another Family that so he may not be enfeebled by being straitned in his food or endangered by the unwholsomenesse thereof 5. Fifthly But it may be there may be some more ground for your fift charge which is That we discover too much willingnesse to quarrell at your expressions a little after say you you discover too much willingnesse to quarrell at my expresfions wherein you say I would suggest that you make opposition to Magistracy but doth not Master Weld a Congregationall man when Master Rathband chargeth Independents to hold that Christians may and ought to set up new Churches and practise in them all Gods Ordinances without the consent of a Christian State yea against their peremptory Commands and established lawes and in the midst and against the minde of such Churches as they freely acknowledg to be the true Churches of God say of this Article no pen can expresse a greater latitude of opposition against Magistracy and Lawes and Churches too then he affirmes to be in us Doe not I use his owne words Print them in a different Character Cite them in the Margent c. Answ True you do so notwithstanding it was not discerned by us and the fault was most in your selfe For you print it in a different Character and cite Master Weld in the Margent but were defective in a letter to guide to the citation and hence the mistake For you cite Answer to 9 pos pag. 76. as appertaining to the letter U speaking of something that was proper to Apostolick men and then immediately joyne T. W. to W. R. pag. 67. by close to it without any other letter as if it had belonged to the same thing and so we received of it as you may discerne by our defence when we make any mention of that part of your answer which speakes of the Apostles preaching against the peremptory Command of Magistrates we print your Citation pointed at by the letter b and we annexe T. W. to W. R. pag. 67. to it as appertaining to the same thing The truth is we were faulty also because if we could have looked into that place of Master Welds booke we might have rcctified our selves in that mistake But that Booke was out of our way when we should have done it and afterwards we did not minde And as for the different Character we minded it lesse because for many causes the Character is changed besides that when other mens words are cited Had we beene aware that they were Master Welds words we would have have given a more pertinent answer which hereafter if there shall