which be Canonicall and which be Apocrypha Protestant 8 How do you know which is the Church And by what meanes may it be knowen that the Church hath authoritie to determine which be Scriptures and which of them be Canonicall and which be Apocrypha Papist There be many notes and markes reckoned vp by the learned of our side by which the Church may be knowen But we insist chiefly vpon these Antiquitie Vnitie Vniuersality Succession and the power of Miracles And for the authority of the Church it is prooued by the Scriptures Protestant 9 This answere is common to all Heretikes for they alleage somtimes the a Author ope Imper. in Mat. Ho. 48. Church sometime b Iren. adu Haere lib. 3. cap. 2. Traditions sometime c Aug. coÌ„tr Maxim Ariâ— episc li. 1. Councels sometime d De Bapt. c. 6. li. 3. Fathers sometime e In Ioh. ca 2. tract 13 Miracles sometime f De vnit eccle c. 16. Visions sometime g Epist 65. ad gener Succession of Bishops yea h Act. 19.27 Demetrius pretended Vniuersalitie And the i Act. 17 18 19. Philosophers Epicures and Stoickes Antiquity And k Vinc. Lir. ca. 6 ca. 4. Vincentius Lirinensis disproueth Vniuersalitie by the example of the Arrians and Antiquity by the example of the Donatists And for their l In Chron. Suput Rom. prat Sigon de Regn. Ital li. â— Vnitie let that appeare in the seuerall oppositions of their Popes one condemning the decrées of another and decréeing one contrary to another And therefore this is no sufficieÌ„t reason for a man to ground his faith and Religion if we beléeue the m StapletoÌ„ Fortresse Hart. ag Ra. pag. 118. Papists in the like cause for it is a common obiection by them that because Heretikes alleage the Scripture therefore they are no suffieient rule Moreouer this answere passeth the limits of the proposition for it presupposeth the authoritie of the Church to be prooued by the Scriptures and the Scriptures to be prooued by the authority of the Church which is Ignotum per ignotius Idem per idem A proofe of a thing vnknowen by a thing lesse knowen and so no proofe at all Therefore to procéede to the next part of the diuision what doe you vnderstand by Traditions Papist I vnderstand Apostilicall doctrine commonly called vnwritten verities and as D.B. P. in his booke against M. Perkins diuides them Some are Diuine some Apostolicall and some Ecclesiasticall all which according to the Councel of Trent are to be receiued with equall reuerence Conc. Trid. Sess 4. and religious affection as we do the Scriptures Protestant 10 How doe you proue Traditions or vnwritten verities to bee Apostolicall doctrine and that they be Diuine Apostolicall and Ecclesiasticall and that they are to bee receiued with equall reuerence and religious affection as we doe the Scriptures Papist 2. Thess 2 15. I proue it by the Scriptures interpreted by the Church Saint Paul saith Hold the Trations which yee haue learned whether it bee by word Conc. Trid. â—ess 4. or by Epistle which by the Churches exposition proueth vnwritten verities to be receiued with equall authoritie to the Scriptures and to explane the same D.B.P. aforesayd affirmeth that Diuine Traditions come from our Sauiour Christ Apostolicall Traditions from the Apostles And the Decrees of the Church hee tearmeth Ecclesiasticall Traditions which are likewise of equall authoritie with the Scriptures Protestant 11 This is a common fault with you to vse this point of Sophistrie called by the Logicians Petitio principij for you wil stil take it for graunted that you are the Church though you neuer prooue it And this is a necessary consequence That if the trueth be doubted of the church must néedes bee much more doubted of because the Church is the number of men professing the trueth And how can the professors of the trueth be seuered from others so long as the trueth by which they should bee knowen is in question Therefore the supposing your selues to be the church when your faith Religion should be tried is fond vain But if S. Paul in that place by Deliuered Tradition meane nothing but the doctrine deliuered to them by word of mouth yet comprised in Scripture too then must you graunt that you are deceiued to thinke that vnwritten Traditions are approued by S. Pauls Traditions Now what the things were which S. Paul deliuered by word to the Thessalonians is shewed in the 17 of the Acts saying Now as they passed thorow Amphipolis and Apolonia they came to Thessalonica where was a Synagogue of the Iewes and Paul as his maner was entred in vnto them and thrée Sabbath dayes hee discoursed vnto them out of the Scriptures opening and alleaging That Christ must haue suffered and risen againe c. In which wordes it is opened both what Paul deliuered to the Thessalonians by word and from whence From whence Out of the Scriptures What That it behooued Christ to suffer and rise againe Besides Saint Paul witnesseth both to small and great that hee said no other thing than that which the Prophets and Moyses did say should come Act. 26 22 The Traditions therefore that Paul doth exhort the Thessalonians to hold is the Tradition of the Gospel as Saint Ambrose writing vpon the same place calleth it very well which the reason also doth prooue that Saint Ambrose noteth that Paul doth there gather saying God hath raised you to saluation by our Gospel therefore stand ye fast and holde the Traditions which ye haue learned whether it be by word or by Epistle Now I hope there is none so impudent to denie that the Gospel is written But here another difficultie incounters vs If it were granted by the Churches interpretation that there were doctrines or Traditions Diuine Apostolicall or Ecclesiasticall deliuered by word of mouth vpon what sure grounds might wee be assured which be the Traditions that were so deliuered by Christ his Apostles or the Church Papist The ancient Fathers chiefe Papists doe plainely teach that many points of doctrine wherein you varie from vs as halowing the Font the blessing of the oyle the anointing the Baptized Exorcismes Fastes Festiuities prayer for the dead prayer to Saints worshipping of Images the oblation of the Sacrifice their Annealing their Primacie of Rome their fiue pretended Sacraments the merit of workes their satisfactions the numbring their sinnes to the Priest their Real presence their halfe CommunioÌ„ c. See the preface for Priests and See Master Middletons booke called Papisto-Mastix Sect. 5. almost all these things which you defend against vs are proued by the Fathers to be deliuered by Tradition Protestant 12 This sheweth euidently that you are guilty of the same fault that the Pharises were Mark 7.9 by Christs owne reproofe saying You cast aside the commaundements of God to maintaine your owne Traditions Mat 15.9 teaching for doctrine
mens precepts So that as Saint Peter hath censured you 1. Pet. 2.18 Yee are not redeemed from the vaine Traditions of your Fathers Besides you chuse rather to make the Fathers to contradict themselues as I haue shewed in the preface of this treatise than to acknowledge with vs as the trueth is that the Traditions mentioned by the Fathers are no parts or points of the Catholike faith But doeth your Church practise all those Traditions which are deliuered by the Fathers to be either Diuine Apostolicall or Ecclesiasticall Papist Yes and although she did not yet is the Churches authority sufficient to abrogate or admit which she pleaseth Protestant 13 Indéede you take that libertie to your selues without all warrant either of Scripture or Fathers For S Hierome which is one of the Fathers alleaged by you for Traditions Dialo coÌ„tr Lucif ca. 4. deliuereth it as an Apostolike Tradition On the Lords day and throughout euery Penticost neither to pray on the knées nor to fast The temper of milke and honie giuen to them that were newly baptised Tertul. de Coro Milit. Nu. 3. is confirmed by Tertullian who likewise reckoneth vp a number of Rites grounded vpon Tradition As that the baptized should abstaine from washing a whole wéeke after Baptisme with much crossing at euery going out at euery steppe at euery comming in at putting on of apparel at putting on of shooes at washings at tables at lights at beddes at seates c. all these are deliuered as the Apostles Traditions which yet the Papists themselues obserue not And if these be not Apostolike Traditions what warrant haue we for any of the rest For as for the Churches authority in abolishing of these you may say as much of the holy Scriptures for you haue said before That Traditions vnwritten Conc. Trid. Sess 4. were of equall authoritie with the Scriptures But doe you thinke the authority of the ancient Fathers to be a sufficient ground to leade vs to accept of all the Doctrine deliuered by Tradition and that whatsoeuer is deliuered by them is to be receiued without exception Papist Yes the ioynt consent of the Fathers Sta. prine doctr li. 7. ca. 13. li. 1â— ca. 5. Hart. â— ag Ray. ca. â— diui â— is an absolute Rule being indeede the Churches exposition Protestant 14 Then must you wholly relinquish all your doctrine and Traditions vnwritten for all the Fathers doe with ioint consent yéelde all their authority to the Scriptures laying it for a Ground that nothing necessary to saluation is to be beléeued without the authoritie of the Scriptures nay that themselues are not to be credited without the scriptures as shal manifestly appeare by the testimonies of these Fathers following yea S. Augustine is so absolute for vs in most of his bookes * Aug Ep 19 ad Hiero Epi 48 Vincent Ep 111 Fortunatiano Epi 112 to Paulina Cont. FastuÌ„ li 11 c. 5. Contr. Cres gram li. 2 ca 11 32 De Bap coÌ„t Don li. 2. c. 2 De merit remiss peccat cont Pelag. lib 3 cap 7. De natur gra ca. 61 De gracia Christi coÌ„tra Pelag cap. â—â— De nuptijs concupisceÌ„t lib. 2 ca. 23. that he would haue the Church sought onely in the scriptures heretikes confuted onely by the scriptures To whose only authority in many places he professeth that he himselfe will be bound So that you must either make these Fathers contrary to themselues Or else grant that Traditions are not of absolute necessitie to be receiued But for that this is a maine point which the Papists insist on I will cleare the same euidently by foure iust exceptions which I referre to the indifferent censure of anie First I will prooue that the Fathers haue attributed all sufficiencie to the Scriptures and haue submitted all their authorities vnto them Secondly That the Fathers haue held diuers errors vpon which it necessarily followeth that if they might erre in one thing they might erre in another Thirdly that they are often reiected by the Papists yea euen the greater number sometimes contrary to their owne rule and therefore may with as great reasoÌ„ be reiected by vs. Fourthly That there are many counterfâ—its bearing the names of ancient Fathers and that often times they are alleaged by the Papists to abuse vs all which particular exceptions I will briefly prooue in order as they lie First Saint Basil saith Tract de fide it is a most certain argument of infidelity and a most certaine signe of pride if any man wil reiect any of those things that are written or bring in any thing that is not written when our Lord saith My sheepe heare my voice and a stranger they will not heare Tertullian saith De resurrect carnis Take away from Heretikes those things which they hold with Ethnikes that they may stay their questions vpon the Scriptures onely and they are not able to stand Saint Augustine saith De doctr Christ li. 2. ca. 9. All things that concerne faith and manners or beliefe and life are plainely written in the Scriptures Chrysostome saith In 2. ad Thessa Ho. 3 That euery thing is cleare and euident by the Scriptures and whatsoeuer things are necessary they are euident In Eusng Ioh. li. 12 cap. 68. Cyril saith That such of the things done by Christ are written as the writers thought to be sufficient for maners and doctrine Epist 11 inter epist August In the controuersie betwâ—xt S. Austin and S. Hierome touching Peters reproofe Hierome alleaged more Fathers on his side and made so great account of them that he desired Austin to suffer him to erre with such men if he thought him to erre Epist 19. To whom Saint Austin replied that peraduenture he might finde as many if he had read much But I saith he haue Paul the Apostle himselfe in stead of these all and aboue these all To him I doe flie to him doe I appeale from all the doctors his interpreters who are of other minds c. Epist 126 ad Euagrium S. Hierome yéelding his opinion to Euagrius a meane man after he had shewed the iudgements of Origen Didimus Hipollitus Irenaeus Eusebius Cesariensis Emisenus Apollinarius and Eustathius saith To bring foorth the witnesses it was my part let it bée yours to iudge of the credit of the witnesses Orig. Hom 1 super Ieâ—em Origen confesseth That their iudgements without witnesse of the Scriptures were of no credit Hierom. in Psal 98. Hierome writeth That all which they spake they were to proue by the Scriptures Hier. in Maâ— 23. and saith in another place That which hath not authority from the Scriptures as easily is despised as approued Saint Basil saith Basil in Ethicis defiâ— 8. If euery thing that is not of faith be sinne as S. Paul affirmeth and faith come by hearing and hearing â—y the word of God Ergo whatsoeuer is without or besides the Diuine
And Saint Iohn witnesseth that our Sauiour Christ saith Iohn 6.53 Except yee eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his blood you haue no life in you and many other testimonies which I omit It wil conuince the Councell of Nice of error in decréeing for the worship of Images contrary to the second commandement But what shall I néede to descend to particularities it will conuince your late Councell of Trent and all other Councels in all those points of doctrine wherein you varie from vs if any Papist dare vndertake to bring the controuersies betwéene vs to that triall And surely since they will seeme to bring Scriptures to prooue the authoritie of the church and that the church cannot erre I sée no reason why they should refuse to make them iudge of all differences betwéene vs. But I maruell they vrge these places of Scripture to prooue that the church representatiue cannot erre séeing they are not able to shew that any one ancient Father hath so vnderstood them or that the whole church is represented in a generall Councell Name one Father that is ancient and not counterfeit for your credit sake that hath interpreted these places of Scripture or any other in that case as you doe If you cannot the world may iustly holde you for wranglers and abusers both of Scriptures and Fathers But let vs a little examine the force of those Scriptures which if they were all granted make nothing against vs if they bee rightly vnderstood The first is When two or thrée are gathered together c. This place is as pregnant for two or thrée faithfull men assembled in Christs name as to a Nationall or a Prouinciall Councell Neither doeth it giue any greater priuiledge to a Generall Councell than it doeth vnto them Bellar. li. 1. de Conc. ca. 12. though it bee alleaged by Bellarmine as the ground for the authorising of Councels All which promise notwithstanding your selues grant That both Nationall and Prouinciall Councels may erre The next place is the sixtéenth of Iohn where the holy Ghost is promised to the Apostles to leade them into all trueth which spirit of trueth is promised to the church and to euery particular member thereof for whome our Sauiour Christ prayeth saying Sanctifie them in thy trueth thy worde is trueth Ioh. 17.17.19 20. And againe I pray not for these alone but for them also that shall beleeue in mee through their worde But what maketh this for generall Councels more then the whole church or euery faithfull member thereof For although this prooueth that the holy Ghost shall euer remayne with the church and with euery true member of the same yet must wee not hereof conclude though it bee as pregnant for euery faithfull particular man as for the whole That either euery member of Christ or euerie Pastor that is the Apostles successour cannot erre Neither is this to be restrained to generall Councels or to the Pope neither must wee thinke that any visible Church may challenge all priuiledges that the Apostles had as necessary to the conuersion of the world Rhem. Test Iohn 16. But your Rhemists will tell you that to teach all trueth and to preserue in trueth and from error the holy Ghost is promised and performed onely to the Church and the choice gouernour and generall Councels Vpon which the Papists conclude that if the Church cannot erre the gouernours of the church cannot erre Is not this substantiall reasoning The whole church cannot erre Ergo the Pastors and preachers cannot erre Deale plainely and directly Do you hereby conclude that all Pastors cannot erre or that no Pastor can erre For to say that no Pastor can erre were apparant madnesse and to say that all Pastors cannot erre stands you in no stead neither is this a good argument The whole Church cannot erre that is all and euery faithfull cannot erre Ergo all Pastors cannot erre This is no kind of consequent for some of the faithfull may be directed to the trueth and they no Pastors nor preachers and many preachers may be preserued from error and they no Bishops and many Bishops may kept in the faith and they not assembled And a great number of those that be assembled may be righty affected and yet not the most part of them And the greater side may be well disposed and yet not the Bishop of Rome without whose confirmation you hold no Councell lawfull And therefore this argument is very childish The whole Church cannot erre Ergo Generall Councels cannot erre and specially the Pope of whom wee shall speake more particularly hereafter neither hath the holy Ghost filled with the vnmeasurable abundance of grace any but Christ Iohn 3.34 Iohn 1.16 for God giueth not the spirit by measure to him of whose fulnesse wee all receiue And it may well bee gathered from the Scriptures 2. Cor. 10.13 Eph. 4.7 that though the holy Ghost be giuen to the Elect yet hee hath giuen it by measure as I may say with Saint Paul not to this end that they may not erre but that they may not erre to death For what thing soeuer is receiued of another it is receiued according to the capacitie of that which receiueth it The last is the 1. Tim. 3.15 The Church is the pillar and ground of trueth therefore it cannot erre If this argument were granted would it follow hereupon that general Councels could not erre but this is sufficiently refuted before And you knowe that Peter was a pillar of trueth and yet hee erred and was reprooued by Saint Paul Gal. 2. yea your Diuines of Paris Articuli Parisienses but lately resolued that Peter erred in faith when Paul reprooued him And the very drift and scope of the place sheweth That Timothie is not sent by Saint Paul to the church to learne his duety but to the Scripture These things write I vnto thée sayth hee hoping to come shortly but if I tarie long that thou mayest knowe how thou oughtest to behaue thy selfe in the house of God which is the church of the liuing GOD the pillar and ground of trueth This church then which Timothie was conuersant in is the church of Ephesus called by S Paul The pillar and ground of trueth But this church of Ephesus hath condemned the doctrine of the Popes supremacie Conc. Flor. Sess vlt. Chalcocondylas de Reb. Turc lib. 6. to which other churches of the East haue likewise condescended Therefore if that be true still which the Church teacheth because S. Paul calleth it the pillar and ground of trueth then the doctrine of the Popes supremacie is wicked and Papistrie is heresie yea euen this church notwithstanding it was called the pillar and ground of trueth is now left desolate to Mahomets wicked impietie But let vs sée by some few testimonies of the Fathers how they haue expounded this place and whether they haue applied it to generall Councels as the Papists do and not
obiections of the errors of Popes and Councels refuted So can I whensoeuer you shall instance any such particular refutation which may ease you of some paines if it be so sufficiently performed referre you to some of the authors of our side where the same reasons haue been with no lesse sufficiencie handled and replied to assuring my selfe That neither any of you haue or can make any obiections against the doctrine we professe that hath not beene already obiected and likewise by vs answered And if any will shew me the contrary I will be beholding to him neither will I shut mine eyes against the trueth If this which I haue sayd may any whit preuaile with you to make shew of that great learning whereof in your Letter you haue boasted by your liberall vndertaking to proue so many particulars which hitherto as great Clerkes as your selfe haue failed in I shall be ready and willing to performe whatsoeuer I haue herein promised Otherwise I pray you returne the booke as you receiued it and you shall see that some such course shal be taken as shal make you blush to haue censured so rashly Your friend in Christianity and Charitie T. V. A briefe view of the weaknesse of the Grounds of Popish Religion as is euident by these seuerall Obiections and Answeres following Protestant 1WHereupon doe you ground your Religion Papist Vpon the word of God interpreted by the Church which cannot erre Protestant 2 What do you vnderstand by the Word of God Papist The Scriptures and Traditions Protestant 3 What doe you vnderstand by the Church Papist Stapl. princi doct l. 7 ca. 10. l. 11 ca. 5 Hervaeus de potest pap R. Cupers Petrus de Palude de potest papae Aâ— 4. The Church is sometimes taken for the auncient Fathers sometimes for generall Councels Sometimes we preferre the head of the Church the Pope before both Protestant 4 Well that we may procéede orderly in the handling of these particulars Doe you receiue all the bookes of the Old and Newe Testaments with equall authoritie Papist No but following the Tradition of the Church we distinguish betweene the Canonicall and the Apocrypha Protestant 5 Which are the Bookes which you call Apocrypha Papist Wee hold as Apocrypha The prayer of Manasses the third and fourth booke of Esdras Also others that are not vsuall in your English Bibles as an Appendix to the booke of Iob The 151. Psalme A preface to the Lamentations of Ieremie The third and fourth booke of Maccabees Protestant 6 Well we agrée with you in the reiection of these Bookes And we likewise consent with you That all the bookes of the New Testament as they stand are to be receiued of all for Canonicall Scripture What are then the Bookes that are in question betwéene vs Papist There be 7. Chapters of Hester certaine Stories annexed to Daniel as Of Bel and the DragoÌ„ Of Susanna Of the three childreÌ„ Also the Epistle of Baruch ioyned to Ieremie Then the books of Tobie Iudeth The Wisedom of Salomon Ecclesiasticus Two bookes of the Maccabees These we repute as Canonical both by the testimony of the Fathers and by the authoritie of the Church Protestant 7 Well Since I shall haue cause hereafter to speake of the Church I wil but briefly giue a touch to the reason of the refusall of these Bookes All Canonicall Scriptures in the old Testament were written by the Prophets We haue a sure word of the Prophets 2. Pet. 1.19 saith Saint Peter And Saint Paul calleth them The Scriptures of the Prophets Rom. 16 2â— But none of those Bookes afore named of Tobias of Iudeth and the rest were written by the Prophets Therefore none of those Bookes are Canonical All the Bookes of the olde Testament that were Canonicall were acknowledged of the Iewes and Hebrewes and written in Hebrew But the Iewes receiued none of these Books into the Canon of the Scriptures though to them were committed the Oracles of God as Saint Paul sayth neither were they in the Hebrew tongue Ergo they are not Canonicall But to the end you may sée how well the Church of which you boast agrées with the testimonies of the Fathers both ancient moderne Hier prol galeat Eâ—i ad Pauli in praefat â—i Reg in praefat in â—ro Salom. I wil giue you this taste briefly S. Hierom saith The Church readeth those bookes but receiueth them not amongst the Canonicall Scriptures The summe of all which is confirmed by these testimonies following whose particular spéeches to this purpose for breuitie sake I omit referring you to the places themselues as they are here following set down As Rufinus in his exposition vpon the Créede Cyril of Hierusalem in the 4. of his Catechisme Athanasius in Synop. Sacr. Scriptur Nazianzen in Carminis Epiphan li. de Mensur ponder Cyprian vpon the Créed Damasâ—en ca. 49. Hugo de Sanct. Victor de Sacram. in prol li. 1. ca. 7. Radulphus in Leuit. li. 14. c. 1. Lyra in prol in li. Apocry Hugo Cardina in prol Iosu All these contradict the opinion of the Papists in this controuersie yea Arias Montanus a chiefe Papist in his Hebrew Bible writeth in the forefront principal leafe of the booke There are added saith he in this Edition the bookes written in Gréek which the Catholike Church following the Canon of the Hebrews reckoneth amongst the Apocrypha The Councel of Laodicea Can. 59. Constantinop in Trul lo Can. 2. allured by a general Councel of Constantinople in Trullo did set downe the same Canon of the scriptures which both the old Church had our church doth hold commandeth Ne aliqui praeterea legantur in auctoritateÌ„ recipiaÌ„tur That none besides be read receiued into authority I omit many seueral contradictions in al or most of the books which we reiect they allow wherby they may be conuinced not to be written by the spirit of God which is alwaies one the same Sée the 4. Esdras 10.20 2. Maccab. 2.4 1. Mac. 1.6 8. touching Antiochus yea we wil confesse with Bellarmin Bellar. de ver Dei li. 1. cap. â— That the scriptures may be proued to be the Word of God by the constant perpetual truth of the Prophecies By the wonderful harmony consent of the holy writers of the Scriptures By the Spirit of God which is a principall witnes vnto vs By the scripture it selfe 2. Tim. 3. Lastly by the many great miracles wrought by the Prophets Apostles which do testifie for the truth thereof To the which touchstone if the Scriptures whith wee reiect were brought to the triall they would easily bee conuinced to bee but drosse and vnworthy to stand in the rankes of those that are Canonicall But how doe you knowe which are the Scriptures and in them which be Canonicall which be Apocrypha Papist I knowe by the testimonie of the Church which be the Scriptures and in them
for cleane hearts to know it is not lawfull for them to iudge Idem coÌ„fes li. 13. ca. 23. And againe Wee must not iudge of so high authoritie neither of the booke which is thine because we submit our vnderstanding to it Contr Crescon li. 2 c. 31 And lastly To the Canons of the scripture pertaine certaine books of the Prophets and Apostles the which in any case we may not dare to iudge And this is the reason There may be no iudge of Trueth where no daÌ„ger of Error is And S. Austin saith Idem epist 19. ad Hier. It is wickednes to make a doubt speaking of the scriptures whether there be any error in theÌ„ or not Therfore there may be no iudges of them but the whole Church must be subiect to theÌ„ with all humility beleeue them And yet will the Papists assume vnto themselues to be Iudges of the scriptures appoint which shall be Canonical which shal be Apocrypha A Iudge we grant must haue two things before he be competent namely skill to discerne that he misse not the truth power to command that his iudgement may take place Now if he want either of these he is no fit Iudge And that the Pope hath neither of these thus I proue For the first I haue proued he may erre therfore no man is bound to his iudgment further thaÌ„ it is agréeable to the truth And to adde one proofe more the Councel of Basil saith This priuiledge Conc. Basil epist Syno 8 not to erre hath not been granted by a common or perpetual law to any not to the Angels for many of them fell not to our first parents for they were deceiued not vnto the chiefe Bishops for many of them are read to haue fallen into error and Heresie And as it is absurd to referre the iudgement to one man so is it also to intitle the church of Rome to be The Catholike Church since their chiefe Schoolemen and lights of the Papists Petr. a Soto contr coÌ„fess Wittenburg ca. de CoÌ„cil AlfoÌ„s à Castro aduer Haer. li. 1. c. 8. CoÌ„f. Petric cap. 24. contr BreÌ„t li. 2. Disput adu Luther tom 6. deauthoritat potest vniuers eccles ca. 5. Ibid. ca. 1. Sotus Alfonsus Hosius and Verratus doe witnesse that any particular Church may erre But that the Church of Rome is a particular Church the same Verratus affirmeth nor can the rest deme it And as he may erre so hath he no power to command princes or others but onely to propose the commandements of God vnto them as euery Bishop must and may by vertue of his vocation Further authority by violence to compell or by corporall and external means to punish no Prelate nor Pope hath by the Lawe of GOD since that belongeth to the Sworde which the Prince and not the Pope beareth Rom. 13. 1. Pet. 2. as Saint Paul witnesseth and also Peter from whose right the Pope makes claime to this superioritie But me thinkes I still heare them obiect that all this while wee appoint not who shall bee Iudges or at least Discerners of Truth And to that we answer Let him that maketh the claime vndertake the proofe for we find no place nor person to whom the Sonne of God hath referred vs for the right vnderstanding of his will but onely to himselfe and the Scriptures And that you may knowe this is not our priuate opinion a slander which you often obiect learne what Optatus S. Aug. hath set downe in this case Christ saith Optat. hath dealt with vs as an earthly father is wont with his children Lib. 5. coni Permenia Donat. who fearing lest they should fall out after his decease doth set down his Will in writing vnder witnesses if there arise debate among the brethren they goe to the testament Hee whose worde must end our controuersie is Christ let his Will be sought in his TestameÌ„t Which reason of Optatus S. Aug. vrging against the Donatists as he doth often We are brethren saith he to them why doe we striue Aug. in Psal 21. exposi 2 Our Father died not intestate he made a Testament and so died Men doe striue about the goods of the dead till the Testament be brought foorth when that is brought they yeeld to haue it opened and read The Iudge doeth hearken the Councellors be silent the Crier bids peace all the people is attentiue that the words of the dead may be read and heard He lieth void of life and feeling in his graue and his words preuaile Christ doth sit in heauen is his Testament gainesayd Open it let vs reade we are brethren why doe we striue let our mindes bee pacified Our Father hath not left vs without a Testament He that made the Testament is liuing for euer He doth heare our words he doth know his owne word Let vs reade why doe wee striue Were not this a silly speach of S. Austin if Traditions were to be receiued with equall Reuerence to the Scriptures or that Councels or Popes had such absolute authoritie But it séemes S. Austin ascribed more to this Testament than to any Pope or Councel whatsoeuer And to conclude this point Optatus in the Question of the Catholikes with the Donatists whether one should be twice baptised Li. 5. contr â—ermen Doâ—at You saith he say it is lawfull Wee say it it not lawfull Betweene your it is lawfull and our it is not lawfull the peoples soules doe doubt and wauer Let none beleeue you nor vs we are all contentious men Iudges must be sought for if Christians they cannot be giuen of both sides for trueth is hindered by affections A Iudge without must be sought for If a Panime he cannot know the Christian mysteries If a Iew he is an enemie to ChristiaÌ„ baptisme No Iudgement therefore of this matter can be found in earth a Iudge in Heauen must bee sought for But why knocke wee at heauen when here we haue the Testament of Christ in the Gospel Belike Optatus and S. Austin were not so wise in those dayes as our Iesuites and Papists are now for they could easily haue put doubts and scruples touching the sense of the Scriptures and could skilfully haue inforced such obiections as these and in all doubts could easily haue assigned their Pope as an Absolute Iudge But it is euident by the iudgement of these two Reuerend Fathers that we can haue no fit Iudge on earth Ioh. 12. God must therefore iudge vs by his word To which all the Fathers doe submit themselues and their writings as is before prooued and alleaged Yea we are warranted by the Prophet Osea to iudge our Mother as it is in the vulgar Translation and to contend with her that she is not the spouse of Christ Hos 2. nor he her husband that she may take away her fornications and adulteries c. as it is more at large in the Text. Thus haue