Christ to be the Pillar of Truth so as that she was never so over-clouded with error but that she hath enjoyed the fruition of that Promise Matth. 16. in some good measure ever since it was made Nor shall she ever so close with the gates of Hell as by general consent and full authority to dissert that Faith which having Christ for its object is the Rock she is built upon and therefore you see I hold the Church cannot err in some sense and indeed he that holds the contrary must for ought I see raze out that Promise Matth. 16. and many other And yet nothing from all this accrues to the Papal Church of Rome I alledged Stephen as defending the Truth by the authority of Scripture Only c. Nor can it be groundedly imagined that had it been the mind of God that such as are not of the Church should be summoned to her Tribunal Stephen being full of the holy Spirit the leader into all truth would have omitted the use of that means but he knew that such authority the Church had none as I shewed from 1 Cor. 5. What have I to do to judge them that are without do not ye also judge them that are within And therefore he could not mention any such power And though Stephen did many wonders among the People yet at this time when he so powerfully vanquished his adversaries he did none at all but only overcame them by the assistance of the Spirit speaking in the Scripture c. I desired you to shew me but one Instance where ever any of the Primitive Saints did appeal to the Church of which they were present Members as Judge between them and such as never received their Doctrine but you have not done it nor indeed can it be done As I shewed that Stephen appealed to Scripture ONLY c. so I also shewed That it was the way of Christ and his Apostles frequently to vindicate their Doctrine against such as were not of their Church by appealing to the Scriptue especially amongst such as owned the Scripture this you confess and also you tell me that your Church doth the same But this cannot be true of All your Doctrine because you have told me That many Points of your Faith are resolved without the written Word of God or else you never answered my first Antiquery which demandeth What Controversie in Religion you can resolve without the written Word of God And in your Answer you assigned The Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and the Son Sabbath Infant-Baptism and MANY OTHER POINTS OF FAITH and I shall shew anon that we have it pro confesso from your Champions that there be some Points of your Faith which is not GROUNDED UPON nor MENTIONED IN the SCRIPTURES and therefore your Church cannot vindicate such Points of her Faith and Doctrine by the Scripture Although Christ sent Paul to Ananias for instruction yet it followeth not that we must take Romes instructions without Scripture Is there no difference between the time that now is and then was Much of the Scripture if not all the New Testament was then unwritten Again Ananias was immediatly sent of God If you are so sent prove it to us as Ananias did by shewing the Miracle of restoring Paul's sight If you are not so sent to what purpose do you alledge this Text I believe I might form you a monsirous Consequence here PAPIST You that will not trust the Churches Judgment lay down four wayes of resolving Doubts The first To argue it out till Truth prevail But if we must argue only out of Scripture and be our own Interpreters of it there can be no end of arguing as I have often shewed The second To appeal to God as the two Tribes did Josh 22. A rare way to end Controversies to look for Miracles in our Disputes The third To appeal to Scripture and right Reason But if I challenge them to be on my side who must take up the difference The fourth To cast Lots But though the Apostles did it who certainly were inspired to do so yet must not we presume to tempt God or to look for the like Miracles or to build our Faith upon such doubtful events BAPTIST You here wrong us to say that we will not trust the Judgment of the Church for the Church truly and universally taken we do credit as her that is appointed of the Father to be the Pillar and Ground of the Truth of which Church we take the Prophets and Apostles to be the principal Members and so in all Points of Faith to be credited in the first place But if by Church you mean the Papal Church of Rome I confess we dare not trust her Judgement at least not in all that she saith for example these following 1. Your Church tells us That it is not needful for the Scriptures to be read to or by the Laity in a tongue which they understand and that though they Pray after another in Latine though they understand not what they say yet such prayer is sufficient Rhem. Test Annot. in 1 Corinthians 2. Your Church tells us That the Sacrifice of your Masse is available to take away or obtain remission of sins by the work wrought Con. Trident. Sess 22. That the whole Masse is a propitiatory Sacrifice for the quick and dead and whoso saith it is only a commemoration of Christ's Death c. is accursed Con. Trent 3. Your Church holds That such as deny that the real Flesh and Blood of Christ is in the Bread and Wine of the Sacrament ought to be burnt to death 4. Your Church holds and tells us That Images and old clothes of Saints ought to be worshipped with religious Worship 5. That men are AS FULLY Justified by good Works AS THEY ARE DAMNED BY evil Works 6. That it is unlawful for Ministers of Christ to Marry 7. That the Scripture doth not contain all things necessary to Salvation To omit many other these are Points of your Churches Judgment which we dare not trust till by you or some other proved to be Truths I assigned the use of Lots as lawful in some doubtful cases to end Controversies and for proof I quoted Acts 7. and this you will not allow for two Reasons 1. Because you say the Apostles were inspired to use them but were it so as that you cannot prove yet it cannot be denied but we may do some things which they were inspired to do for the Holy Ghost was to lead them into all Truth and they were to lead us into the same Truth by their Example and Doctrine Joh. 16. 13. 1 Cor. 11. 1 2. And be it here observed That the Holy Ghost led those our Teachers to ordain the Ministry by Prayer and laying on of Hands Acts 6 and Acts 13. which practice of theirs is a good president to act by a president I say for this practice is not expresly commanded in Scripture no more than the use
avouch the Answer which I have given to this your first Query as will evidently appear to the impartial Reader of the several Quotations which I have before alledged and which do here follow The ANSWER to the FIRST QUERY Avouched sufficient by the Sentence of divers DOCTORS both Antient and Modern VVHether of us be Schismaticks ask not me I will not ask you Let Christ be asked that he may shew us his Church Neither must I alledge the Nicene Council nor you the Arimi I am neither bound to the one nor you to the other let the matter be tryed by the Scripture Augustine saith Let the Scriptures judge let Christ judge let the Apostles judge Yea it is confessed by the Papists that Aug. Optatus and Basil summoned their Adversaries to the arbitriment of holy Scriptures and did allow the sufficiency of holy Scripture to decide the Controversies depending between them In time past saith Chrysostome there were many wayes to know the Church of Christ viz. by good Life by Miracles by Chastity c. but from the time that Heresies did take hold of the Church it IS ONLY known by the Scripture which is the true Church Again he saith The Lord then knowing that so great confusion would come in the latter dayes therefore willed the Christians that would take to the sureness of true Faith to have refuge to nothing but to the Scripture otherwise saith he if they regard other things they shall perish not understanding what the true Church is Thus my Answer is avouched good as it respects the means to decide the differences which are about the Church Next hear what they say touching such differences as are in the Church Iren. If there be any disagreement risen up among Christians concerning Controversies in Religion what better course is there to be taken than to have our recourse into the Most antient Churches which must needs be those planted by the Apostles considering the time when he lived and to receive from thence what shall be certain and manifest Augustine Because the Scripture cannot deceive whoso feareth to be misled in the obscurity of this Question let him ask COUNSEL of that Church which the SCRIPTURE without any ambiguity pointeth out Constantine Mag. There are the Gospel the Prophets and Apostles which do teach us what to hold in Religion wherefore expelling all hostile and bitter contention let us seek the Solution of these Questions out of the Scriptures Thus spake this famous Emperor in the Council of Nice at what time the Bishops had like to have jarred into pieces THus have I given an impartial Relation of what hath passed between the Popish Querist and my Self in our two last Papers which contains the sum of what passed in the other as touching this Question about the Judge of Controversies And now for further satisfaction That the Scripture as aforesaid ought to be admitted the high Prerogative of Judge in our Debates consider that of necessity it must be so My reason is because either the Scripture or some other Writings must be our Judge especially in this important Question WHICH IS THE TRUE CHURCH For when we contend about her it is very unreasonable that any party contending for that title should be permitted to give Judgment in their own cause As for example The present Assembly of Papists say That they are the true Church and the present Assemblies of Baptists say That they are the true Church Is it fit that either party contending should here give Judgment decissive What then must we do why of necessity we must to some Writings whereby to be decided or agreed in this Controversie These Writings must be either the Scriptures or some other but no other can compare with those so that they do deserve this Prerogative better than any other The Papists ordinary way in this difficulty is to tell us that we must here be tryed by the Tradition of our Fore-fathers in which they say we cannot be deceived which Tradition they say is the only thing that is unquestionable and needs no other ground to stand upon but it self And against the Scripture's being received upon its own evidence or authority they usually do thus object that before we can receive what it teacheth we must be assured of its truth And again they say the Scripture may not be the Judge of Controversie because it may be corrupted translated ill interpreted not rightly understood And by these and other like objections they usually in all their Writings invalidate the Scriptures certainty authority and sufficiency that so they advance the authority of their Traditions But let it be seriously considered whether these Objections have not the same force against what they rest upon which they have against the holy Scripture First then whereas they tell us the Scripture cannot teach us any thing till we be assured of its truth Doth not this conclude against any other thing as strongly Ought we not to be assured of the truth of the Church before we receive her documents Ought we not to be assured of the truth of that Tradition which we receive for the Rule of our Faith But how must we be assured of the truth of the Papal Church and Tradition There is not a man living that can remember when either began and so avouch its beginning to be of divine Institution and the continnance of the same ever since its beginning to have been without any corruption What then must we do Why we must search Romes Records And then I ask are they not as questonable and liable to mis-interpretations as easily mis-understood as the Records of God What is now become of these Objections the force whereof is evidently against the Papal Church and her Traditions of the truth whereof we must be assured BEFORE we can be taught by either of them I say again There is not a man of all the Papists that can evidence Rome to have been a Church two hundred years ago and then much less one thousand six hundred years ago So that OF NECESSITY we must to the Writings of some men whom we never saw write one word to find the Church And then I would know why we may not make enquiry at the Pen of Paul what the Church was at first and what it ought to be now as well as at the Pen of Augustine Cannot the Pen of Peter the Apostle give us as good information in this matter as the Pen of any Pope pretending to be his Successor If the Papists answer That we know not the Pen of Peter or Paul We answer as well as they know the Pen of Augustine or Gregory If they say Paul's Writings may be corrupted and must be interpreted may be mis-understood I return the same Answer of all other Books whatsoever yea those which contains Romes Tradition See therefore what is gained by devising objections against the authority or certainty of the holy Scriptures Such
aside the Commandments of God you hold the Tradition of men THO. GRANTHAM THE BAPTIST AGAINST THE PAPIST The FIRST PART sheweth the SCRIPTURE and ROME to be in Contention about the SUPREAM SEAT of JUDGMENT in Controversies of RELIGION THe first of all Controversies is founded upon this Query What is the authoritative Judge of Controversies And indeed till there be some agreement in this point there can be no expectation of any fruitful issue of any Controversie Now all Controversies amongst the sons of men are reduceable to one of these two heads namely things humane or things divine things precisely pertaining to this life or things which only pertain to that which is to come concerns of a secular consideration or concerns of a religious consideration And according to the nature of these Controversies such ought the Judge for decision thereof to be Concerning this Judge of Religious Controversies there are divers opinions Some say that the Light or that of God in Every Man is this only infallible Judge of all Religious Controversies But if this be admitted a multitude of inconveniences must needs follow of which this is not the least That there can be no end of Controversies because if every man have this Judge of all Debates in himself and he aver that what he saith and doth is according to the voice of this Judge or that of God in him no man can take in hand to judge contrary thereunto without becoming the Judge's Judge and so violate the Rule proposed For this opinion refers not doubtful matters to that of God in some men or a select number of men but to that of God in every man There is another Opinion which saith That amongst all men which pretend to own Christ and challenge to themselves the title of his Church and yet do deny each other to have an interest in that title That amongst all such parties of the sons of men the only infallible and authoritative Judge of their Controversies about Religion is the LORD Himself as he speaketh by his Spirit in the holy Scriptures together with right Reason or thus which is all one The Apostles and Prophets as they speak in their holy Writings are the onely infallible authoritative Judge in these Controversies Yet three things are in this Opinion allowed first That the living voice of the Pastors with the Church in their respective Ages wherin they live are of great importance in order to the terminating strife in the Church as a Church Secondly That Records of Antiquity are of some usefulness for the resolving some Controversies and for the better discovery of some Errors yet not so absolutely necessary but that the Church may sufficiently resolve her Controversies without them Thirdly That there is a Judgment of Science to be allowed every man as touching all things which he chuseth or refuseth in matters of Religion to be used with moderation and discreet subjection And this is the Opinion to which for my part I do adhere There is another Opinion which saith That the Papal Church of Rome is the Supream Judge and Catholick Moderatrix of all Disputes in matters of Faith and that All are bound to hear and obey her Voice under pain of Damnation and that the Scriptures as taken in the second Opinion is not the Judge of Controversies Now this is the Opinion which at this time I am to examine which in much seriousness I humbly purpose to do and leave it to the sober consideration of all men And for the better discharge of this duty it is meet we should understand what the Papists mean by the Church of Rome And this I find that under that title they would involve the whole Church of Christ from the Apostles dayes until this present time at least all the Faithful since the time that Paul declares the Roman Church to have been famous as Rom. 1. 8. But this is the very thing denied by us for though we willingly grant that there was a very famous Church at Rome when Paul wrote his Epistle to them yet it followeth not that there is such a Church there now or that all that ever from that time to this have walked in the steps of true Faith must needs be supposed to have been Members of the Roman Church or rather of the Church of Rome so called especially since it was Papal So that in this Controversie they must be content to define the Church of Rome on this wise viz. All that in any Age since Christ was of the same Faith and Practice in things religious which is at this day found in the Papal Church of Rome and those only are the persons of whom the Papal Church of Rome doth consist And indeed this is as much as they can reasonably desire for if those holy men who lived in times past were of a Faith and Practice contradistinct to that which Rome hath now received Then may not the present Papal Church without wrong challenge them to be of their Church As for example Paul who bore witness for Christ at Rome and the Christians there in his dayes was of the Church of Christ at Rome yet we deny that they were any part of the Papal Church of Rome The Church of Rome therefore defined as before I do deny to be the infallible authoritative Judge of all Controversies about matters of Faith or Religion And I do further say That the Scriptures and right Reason as laid down in the second opinion much more deserves to be received for this supream Judge of Controversies than the Papal Church of Rome and that there is not an other Umpire that can so effectually decide the Controversies of Religion which depend between such parties of men as lay claim to the Title of Christ's Church and yet deny each other to have an interest therein And how far forth the truth in this Point hath been evidenced in that pro and con Discourse so far as it relateth to the first of them which hath been occasioned by the writing of the Seven Queries I have before spoken of is here offered to the Consideration of all sober men that profess to own the Glorious Gospel of the blessed God and our Saviour Jesus Christ The first Query of the Seven was this propounded by the nameless Papist PAPIST Whether we are to resolve all differences in point of Religion only out of the written Word of God BAPTIST To which Question these ensuing Answers were given before I received the Adversaries last Paper which with the Answers thereunto I will transcribe verbatim I say the Answers were That the word Controversies being understood of such Controversies only as depend between those parties of men who deny each other to be the Church that then there is no other way whereby WE can resolve those Controversies but by the assistance of God's Spirit speaking to us through the undoubted Prophets and Apostles and Primitive Churches in the lively Oracles of God the Scriptures of
Truth together with the help of right Reason in a way of subserviency to those divine directions Or if the word Controversies shall relate only to all such Controversies as fall within the compass of the Church that then to the former means we are to joyn the living Voice and Authority of the Church in present being assembled with her Pastours as the ordinary means appointed of God to terminate strife in the Churches But if the Division in the Church be so great as that it be not this way decissive or the Doubt so secret as not this way to be resolved there is not then a better way than for both Parties to reason it out till Truth and Innocency do prevail as the two Tribes and an half did with the other Tribes of Israel and prevailed Joshua 22. or in some doubtful cases the use of Lots may be admitted for the resolution of them Acts 1. PAPIST It is worth observing how many windings and turnings you have to avoid the difficulty of this Query Whether we are to resolve all differences in point of Religion only out of the written Word of God First you leave out the word only in which lay the very knot of the difficulty 2. Then you give me a piece of an Answer and keep in the living voice of the Church as a reserve for your Second Paper 3. When you are shewed how you for sake your old fort the sole sufficiency of Scripture as if you were afraid to come too near us you give back again and do your worst to discredit this living voice of the Church so that in effect it stands but for a meer cipher as I foresaw it would when it came once to the scanning 4. Upon second thoughts finding your error by putting the Query What is become of the living voice of the Church you shuffle again and would gladly make something of it but this something in the end falls to just nothing as I shall make it further appear by ripping up the particulars of this your last Answer BAPTIST I have used no windings to avoid the difficulty of the first Query but you are to know that when I first answered it I took the word Controversie to relate only to such Controversies as depend between such persons as deny each other to have any present right to either the Name or Priviledges of the Church And indeed I do not see how any other sense can be made of this Query for under that word WE I suppose you included no more but your self and Church on the one party and us to whom you sent the Queries on the other party and we well know that you account us no members of the Church and you likewise know that we have the same opinion of you but when your Observations or Second Paper took into the Query all Controversies which fall within the compass of the Church as such I could do no less than tell you that my Answer did not exclude the living voice of the Church in such cases but that my Answer doth only exclude every such voice as exalteth it self above the Spirit speaking in the Scriptures And whereas in your Third Paper you told me That to appeal to Councils and Fathers is a clear way to agree all our differences I told you that this is a very cloudy way and that because they are contrary to themselves and one another 2. Till they be agreed they cannot agree us 3. And sith you take not the Scripture as being of any authority till they as the Church give it you I demanded by what you would agree them in their divisions 4. And to shew you how they are divided I gave you divers Instances concerning their divisions as also touching the corruption which hath been found in divers Popes PAPIST 1. I had no reason to take notice of your excluding from the living voice of the Church every voice exalting it self above the voice of Scripture because it was a very needless Exception since the Church arrogates no such power but only to interpret the voice of Scripture 2. Why this way of taking the sense of Scripture from the living voice of the Church should be so cloudy as you say it is I do no more understand than that the living voice of a Judge should be a cloudy way to understand the Law by As for your Riddles how we are to reconcile the Fathers and Councils when they seem to clash with their own Assertions but by having recourse to Scripture I Answer briefly That General Councils have no such contradictions as you speak of And as for the holy Fathers when there is any such difficulty in any one of them we must look upon the rest what they say and to follow their unanimous consent for if we take them singly no doubt they have erred and these errors we know by their dissenting from the rest for otherwise certainly the authority of any one of the antient Fathers when he expounds Scripture or relates the Christian practice of his time and is not censured or contradicted by the rest or condemned by the Church in a General Council is of greater authority to decide Controversies in point of Religion or to know the true meaning of Scripture than any thing you have alledged as we shall see by and by when I have first examined what you bring to discredit the Fathers and Councils Against the Fathers you first bring St. Aug. retract 21. contradicting himself by saying that Matth. 16. Christ built not his Church upon Peter but upon Peter 's Faith sure you read not St. Aug. for he there expounds that place of Christ himself and not of the Faith of St. Peter nor doth he recal his expounding it elsewhere of St. Peter but leaves both Expositions as probable concluding thus Hunc autem sententiam quae sit probalitur eligat lector Is this fair dealing Again you bring in St. Aug. contra Petil. c. 2 3 4. as contrary to himself and me because he teaches That the Church is to be found out by the words of Christ But though I doubt you cannot make this appear in any of these three Chapters yet were it nothing to the purpose for we deny not but the Church is to be found out by these clear marks whereby the holy Scripture hath deciphered her Next you alledge St. Chrysost in Psal 22. and St. Ambrose de Sacrament calling the Blessed Sacrament a similitude or figure of Christ's Body and Blood I Answer 1. That it is the Opinion of the Learned that neither St. Chrysost nor indeed any Grecian could be Author of that work 2. I say the Sacrament may be truly called the similitude of Christ's Body and Blood because it is not given in the form of flesh and blood of which men would have a horror as the same St. Amb. observes but under the Forms of Bread and Wine The next is St. Dinis Eccl. Herarch but quoting no place I have not yet met