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truth_n	apostle_n	church_n	time_n	4,784	5	3.9277	3	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A09739	Ane answer made the fourth day of Septembre a thousand fyue hundreth syxtie [and] one, by maister Theodore de Besza minister of the holie Euangile, in the presence of the quene mother, the king and quene of Nauarre, the princes of the blood royall, and of the priuie counseil, vnto that whiche the cardinall of Lorraine had replied against that whiche was propounded in the first iourney of their talking together, by the said de Besza in the name of the reformed churches. Together with an other short answer made by the said de Besza the 26 day of the said moneth vnto certein articles of replie set forth by the said cardinall	Bèze, Théodore de, 1519-1605.; Baron, John.	1562 (1562)	STC 2000; ESTC S119255	24,857	90

receiued in the Churche euerywhere of all men But who may assure vs of these thre pointes Certenly no mā as I suppose For the diuersitie is infinite y t is founde in the bookes of the Ancients yea and that in the articles of the faith Furthermore if we must come vnto these wordes alwayes and of all at what tyme shall we begin except at the Apostolicall Churche And who shalbe the first in y e coūte but the Apostles of whom y e historie was faythfully written by Saint Luke that whiche may be knowen by theire owne writinges So therefore my Lordes to conclude forasmuche as all trueth cōmeth of God who haeth taken for his trushmen in that that concerneth oure saluation the Prophetes and Apostles we returne alwayes vnto this foundation of the Scriptures and yet will we receiue the aduise of coūcelles and of fathers but that shall be so farre as they cōfirme their sayinges by the euident witnessinges of the Scriptures the whiche as treulie sayeth Saint Augustine in his bookes of Christian doctrine be so tempered with the holy Spirit y t that whiche is darkly spoken in one place is moste clearelie spoken in an other place with diuers other meanes to vnderstand well the Scripture whiche be conteined in y e said bookes of Saint Augustine and of otheres whiche haue entreated of this mater And there remayneth as yet one difficultie to be resolued whiche lyeth in this that many haue thoght that the will of God touching all y t is requisit vnto oure saluation was not fully written by the Euangelistes Apostles But if this might take place I pray you my Lordes what a doore should there be opened to set forth all maner of dreames and rauinges that men list And in very dede we see that this haeth bene the passage by whiche Satā haeth entered in to waste the vine yarde of the Lorde and yet denye we not but y t before Moses tyme God gouerned his Churche by visions and reuelations and that the Apostles first planted the Churches with a liuelie voice before that their doctrine was written But where fore is it y t whiles men grew greater in malice and mo in nombre contrarie wyse their lyues growing shorter that the Lorde haeth willed that this doctrine should be enregistred in a cōmon language to be vnderstand of all Haeth this bene to encountre them that decore and deck their rauinges and dreames with y e tytle of traditions reuelations or of custome Now if this doctrine be not written but in part wherefore should this remedie serue then Surely Saint Iohn speaketh not so of the Scriptures where he sayeth that the thinges y t he haeth written be written to the end that in beleuing that Iesus is the Christe the Sonne of God ye might haue lyfe the whiche thing should be fals if there should be left out any doctrine necessarie vnto saluation Saint Paule also declarīg the vse of the Scripture where he wold teache all the ministers of the Churche of God in the personne of his faithfull disciple Timothee had not said that it maketh the man of God that is to say the ministers of the worde of God or in especiall if ye list euery faithfull man to be in all pointes perfyte if it had bene nedefull to haue added any thing that as yet was not written And yet we doubt not but alweys there might haue bene of the Apostles traditions vnwritten But what were they Perteining vnto ordre and to policie But because this name haeth bene abused a long tyme it behoueth to shew whiche be y e Apostolicall traditions the w c will not be hard to be done if two pointes be propounded whereby they may be iudged that is to say if they be cōformable to the doctrine and mete to edification for it is a thing moste assured that the Apostles neuer appointed any maner of doing that might be directly or vndirectly cōtrarie to the doctrine whiche they taught nor also that myght turne away men how litle soeuer it be frōe the spirituall seruice seing all their writinges beare witnes thereof When therefore this ruell shalbe kept then shall it be easie to discerne the doctrine frome the tradicions and the fals tradicions from y e right traditions And to this may be added that that whiche the Apostles them selues haue done in this behalf is not alweys perpetuall Not but that they are witnes w tout reproche but for this cause that according to the reule of charitie did they beare some thing with the infirmitie of the Iewes and so muste be iudged of that whiche they ordeyned of thinges strangled to eat no blood And of that whiche S. Paule haeth taught and practised in Timothee and on his personne the w c thinges now might haue no place except in following y e generall reule to cōmodate oure selues to oure neighboures in thinges indifferent suche thinges may also be gathered of other maner of doīges whiche they haue appropried vnto their tymes as where it is spoken of kissing to haue their head vncouered or bare in signe of authoritie the whiche at this day be contrarie maner of doinges or fashions amongest many nations amōgest whome it should be founde very strange y t men should kisse one an other or that one man should kysse an other mans wyfe as also at this tyme to speake beare headed is a signe of inferrior or low condition All these thinges therefore oght to be considered before y t we should grounde a doctrine as Apostolicall for to abuse the authoritie or custom of y e Apostles to trooble the Churches with lyke as we see that it haeth come to passe shortly after the tyme of the Apostles for the feast of Easter specially in their tyme touching them whiche abused the authoritie of the Churche of Ierusalem for to mingle the Iudaisme with the Christianisme accordīg as it is written in the historie of the Actes of the Apostles There was it ordeyned that no mans cōscience should he charged with any yoke How thē may we esteme that y e Apostles haue inuented so many and so many ceremōes vnto whiche afterwardes haeth bene attributed bothe remission of sinnes and merites seing y t they haue made suche an expresse protestation to the contrarie yea wolde not giue place vnto the Mosaicall ceremonies of whiche God him self was author It is a long tyme since that Saint Augustīe cōplayned hereof when he wrote to Ianuarius but there is no doubte if he had bene in the lyke tyme as ours is he wold haue bene more astonied at them In a somme therefor we do require that the Scripture whiche is cleare in this behalf may discerne betuixt the traditions that be good thē y t be euill betuixt them that be holie and them that be profaine betuixt them that be profitable and them that be noysome and betuixt them that be nedefull

of no value vnto saluation not that the faute thereof commeth of God but of the men that wil be deaf following y t whiche is cōmonlie said that there is none deafer then he y t will not vnderstand And of this calling haeth the Lord spoken when he said there be many called and few chosen Beholde therefore consequently it behoueth that this name of the Churche signifieng the company of them that are gathered together by the voyce of God whiche haeth called them is taken two wayes For being taken generally for al● them whiche make outwarde profession to answer vnto God whiche calleth them there is no dout bu● there be many hypocrites and reprobat comprehended therein And for oure part my Lorde Cardinall neuer God be praysed haue we spoken nor written otherwayes seing it is a thing whereof we neuer had debate because it is moste clerelie expressed in the Scriptures and confirmed by a continuall experience But yf nede be to take this name of the Churche more properly and more streitlie as often tymes it must nedes be taken then say we that it doth not comprehend any but the assemblie of the elect and predestinate of God And to the intent that ye may vnderstand y t we haue not forged this maner of speaking and yet les this ●inde of doctrine seing it is said that ●he Churche is the body of the Lord ●one of his bones flesh of his flesh ●ea specially to attribute vnto it the proper name of Christe in ioyning ●ogether the head and the membres ●s doeth y e Apostle writing vnto the Corinthians how then be the repro●ate comprehended in this nom●re seing they be y e membres of the Deuill For it is a thing vnpossible ●o be of the membres of Christe of ●he Deuill at ones This is it whiche S. Augustine wonderfully well haeth noted ī his seconde booke ●he 12 chaptre against Cresconius The same distinction of y e name of ● Churche the self same authour vsed writing vpon 64 Psalme where ●e sayeth y t the Churche whiche 〈◊〉 signified by Ierusalem begonne at Abell and Babilon by Cain And yet this notwithstanding in h●● first booke of Baptisme against th● Donatistes the 16 chaptre taking th● Churche in a more generall significa●tion he sayeth that the same which did engendre Abell Enoch Noe Ab●raham the Prophetes haeth als● engendred Cain Ismaell and other● lyke For conclusion therefor w● will take that whiche the same S● Agustine haeth written thereof in ● same treatise in the 17 booke 57 cha●ptre the whiche is also rehearsed in the 24 question the first chaptre omnibus considerates c. where is said that there be two ma●ner of men touching the Churche For he saieth the one be membres of Christ and the right Churche ● so of the house of God that they be y e self same house The other are truely in the house of God and yet be they none of the same for they be as the chaffe with the wheat vntill y t they go oute Now by this meanes groweth there a question to wit whether the Churche be inuisible the w c semeth that so it must be concluded seing y t God onelie may know his elect and predestinate also that we say y t we beleue the holie Churche and that whiche is beleued is not sene But hereof there followeth a greate inconuinient if simply and barely we speak so of it For if it be so vnto what company may a man ioyn him self what meanes shall we vse to haue saluation if we knowe not y e Churche whereunto we may ioyn oure selfes considering that vpon the Churche onely Iesus Christe powreth oute his vertue and force to saue mankinde Trew it is my Lorde Cardinall if I remembre well that ye alledged yet an other inconuenient whereof we be not satisfied to wit that if the Churche were inuisible that then we should not somuche as knowe oure King y t whiche thing we could not vnderstand For the Scripture teacheth vs to know oure superiours and to obey them in all thinges sauing y e honnor that we owe vnto God onely yea althogh they be infideles in dede But let this be spoken as by the way I returne to my purpose We say therefore y t althogh the true Churche be inuisible in respect of that that we haue said neuertheles when there is question vnto what company we oght to associat ioyn oure selues we haue certen markes to wit the pure word of God and the sincere administration of his Sacramentes the whiche markes be euident and perceiuable in suche sorte y t where they be we oght not to doubt that there is the true Churche of God And we must according to the ruell of charitie holde all for faithfull that make profession of y e pure religion except that God discouer theire dissimulation feynednes And of this saint Paule giueth vs a good example where he calleth the Corinthiens Galathiens saintes and faithfull and doeth attribute vnto them y e name of the Churche althogh there was amongest them greate fautes aswell in the ignorance of doctrine as in theire liuing This is it whiche also he haeth declared in an other place that all they w c kepe y e foundation buyld not alwayes thereon gold siluer or precious stones but also hay chaffe Se now how we speake of the Churche without making thereof an imagined a fantasticall thing and without giuing occasion as I suppose to compt vs among y e nombre of suche frensi●k persons as heretofore were the Cathariēs Donatistes and as again now in oure tyme be these furious Anabaptistes against whom this mater haeth so often bene debated by them that are of oure part I come nowe vnto the marckes witnessinges of the Churche the whiche is very nedefull to be marcked and marcked again seing that withoute the same there is no saluation and that there is no thing y t Satan oure ancient enemye more enforceth him self to dissaguyse I haue said that it haeth two certen infallible marckes that is to say the preaching of the worde of God and the sincere administration of the Sacramentes Some ioyne thereunto the discipline of the Churche and y e frutes of the preaching of the Euangile as of a trueth it behoueth that euery assemblie for to maintene them selues haue a policie vnder some superiour whom they must obey But forsomuche as our sinnes be often tymes the cause that thies two pointes in no wyse appere vnto men therefore we will content oure selues with the two first As touching the worde that it is a sure marcke of the Churche it appereth by this that the same worde is cōpared vnto a sede bothe by Iesus Christ by saint Peter By reason whereof also saint Paule haeth said y t he haeth begotten the Corinthiens in y e Lorde to wit by the preaching of

beawtie where there shall be neyther spot nor wrinckle it knoweth God but it is in a parte When I speake thus I beleue y t ye know the Apostles owne wordes For to be brief I confesse that without y e Churche there is no saluatiō because there is no lyfe but in Iesus Christe Iesus Christe imployeth not his liuelie vertue no where els but amongest his membres the vnion and assemblie whereof is called the Churche But the question is to know whether that in this world the Churche may erre and whether it be aboue the Scripture or els altogether subiect vnto the same Hereunto do I answer that it is a thing without all doubte that the particuler membres of the Churche may erre and do erre daylie bothe in doctrine and maners according vnto that whiche S. Paule sayeth that we knowe in a parte and S. Iohn that if we say y t we haue no sinne we deceiue oure selues But if any body will except out of this nombre the ancient doctors he shall perdonne vs if we beleue him not For it were easie for vs to gather many witnesses of fautes y t be foūd in the greatest and moste ancient of them let this be spoken sauing the reuerence due vnto their godlines and learning But we will not stay oure selues so muche here for the honnor that we heare vnto them and y t not without good cause as also because if I haue well vnderstand the sayeng of my Lorde Cardinall that he is no more of that mynde then we to deceiue them without exception This is it that we vnderstand of the membres of the Churche in particularitie the imperfection whereof doeth not stoppe but y t the Churche is formed and made thereof For by litle and litle do they go forwarde aswell in the knowledge of God as in the amendment of life But if the membres of the Churche be generally considered as it is destributed in diuers diocess and prouinces shall we say that it may ●rre Again if I remembre well my Lorde Cardinall was lately of that 〈…〉 specially the particuler Churches prouinciall Councelles may erre and haue often erred and surely that is ratified by so long an experience that no man of iudgemēt as I suppose can doubte thereof There resteth therefore to cōsider the hole Churche in an vniuersalitie but in what sorte For cōsidering it in the estimation of an vniuersall Councell first of all there is no greate apperance to iudge that all the vertue that the holy Goste employeth vpon y e Churche is restreyned to an certen nombre of Prelats the whiche be not alweys y e most learned nor y e best yea althogh they represent the hole multitude that sēdeth them For how often tymes will it come to passe that a simple man shall haue more vnderstanding at an instant then the moste wyse of an hole company And therefore was it said by Gerson y t more credit oght to be giuen to one priuate faithfull man then to an hole Coūcell and to the Pope if he haue better authoritie or reason And namely in y e great Councell of Nece by whome was it stopped that the law of single lyfe whiche afterwarde haeth broght so great filthynes into the Churche was not then established By one Paphnutius onely as sayeth the historie And moreouer whē was there euer assembled a Councell so generall but that a greate parte not onely of the moste wyse and moste holie men but also of the Prelates haue remayned be hinde And who may than assure but that they that were absent some tymes had greater reuelation then they that were present And besydes all this my Lordes how long is it a go that there reigned so horrible a cōfusiō in y e Churche and principally in the great estates dignities of Prelates in such sorte that the greatest desolation of the house of God is in that parte where it oght to be moste entier and best decked At the least it is a long tyme past that the exemples hereof haue appered that y e good Busshops haue sobbed sighed so grieuously therefore so euidently that we heare them at this day And that whiche S. Barnard wryteth of this mater in his book of consideration and in the 33 sermon on the Canticles and also in the sermon of the conuersion of S. Paule is noles notoriouse thē true Allas Lorde sayeth he they whche be sene to loue the first and chief places ī thy Churche and their to haue y e superioritie be first in a redynes to persecute thee They haue take● the Ark of Sion they haue vio●lently possessed the Castell and by power haue set fyre on th● hole Citie Let this be spoken m● Lordes not to iniurie any body bi● to shew that the chief vocations i● the Churche being of so long a tym● so confused and misreuled that it i● impossible to conclude in any wys● that the vniuersall Councelles tha● haue bene now of a long tyme ga●thered together of a multitude so e●● qualified haue bene so guyded by 〈◊〉 holy Spirit that they coulde no● erre An ancient Priest of whome I wolde make no mention in this cōpany if it were not that they alledg● his example in this mater did prophesie well althogh he was no thing worth But we reade none otherwyse but he erred yea both y t he his company in condemning Iesus Christ for it was the holy Goste y t propheseid in this behalf and not he whiche knew not what he said nor what he spoke being moued w t a Spirit very contrarious that is to say a deuilish Spirit because of malice he concluded to sic a Iesus Christe the Sonne of God And further if a generall Councell haeth receiued this priuiledge that they can not erre in y e rewle of their doctrine nor in y e forme of their maners we demand what tyme was this priuiledge dated For there was neuer but one God one Faith and one Churche Now that there was error in the Churche in the tyme of the olde Testamēt the Prophetes openlye beare witnes and y e histories shew good proof thereof All y e wache men sayeth Esay 56 ▪ chaptre be blind they know no thing they are all domme dogges ▪ And Ierem 6 chaptre Frome the Prophet to the priest they work all vntrueth And to the intēt y t this might not be restreyned vnto the life of particuler persons it is said in the 14 chaptre of the same Prophet they prophesie fals thinges and a lieng vision And in Isay the 29 chaptre The wisdome of the wyse shall perishe the vnderstāding of y e prudent shall vanishe away God shall shut vp the eyes of the Prophetes and of y e principalles And in Ezechiell the 7 chaptre The law shall perishe frome the Priest And to say the trueth who condemned y e Prophetes as Ieremias

Micheas yea the Sonne of God him self and after him the Apostles but the assemblies of the Prelates of Israell If hereunto it be answered that these thinges happened in the tyme of the olde Testament I answer that it is not ynough spoken nor derectly answered For the conclusion will alweys be ferme and sure that the assemblie of Prelats of the Churche how generall soeuer that it was haue oftē tymes bene gouerned by the Spirit of error rather then by the holy Goste Secondly if we come to the new Testament S. Paule haeth not he expresly warned the Ephesiens in y e name of all the Churche that there shoulde wolues come oute frome amongest the mids of the Pastors that the sonne of perdition shoulde sit in the temple of God And in very dede in conferring the Councelles one with an other there will appere so many contrarieties amongest them selues that of very force ye must confesse that the holy Goste haeth not alweys there had audiēce but that Satan for a long tyme past haeth transfigured him self into the lyght of generall Councelles for to disguise and hyde his falshode There is a place in S. Augustine y t expresseth this in his second booke of Baptisme agaīst the Donatistes 3 chaptre the whiche I haue alledged in the first oration and now for a cause will alledge it again there it is expresly said that the Epistles of the particuler Busshops be corrected by the prouinciall Councelles and the prouinciall Councelles by the generall Councelles the first generall Councelles adnulled by the last when as by experiēce of things that whiche was close is opened that whiche was hidde is made euident Unto this my Lorde Cardinall answered ī his oration y t this was to be vnderstand of exterior or outward things whiche might oght to vary according as nede requireth But considering the hole mater nerer it is found that this worde Emendari presupposeth that there was a faute cōmitted and after corrected also if this answer shoulde be receiued ye must say lykewyse of the particuler Epistles of the busshops and prouinciall Councelles the whiche is directly against the intention of Saint Augustine whiche reasoneth there of this point and not of any exterior policie but of one point of doctrine to wit of the opinion of Saint Cyprian and of the Councell of Affricke touching rebaptisation If there be also alledged an other argument whiche they vse to wit if oure Lorde haeth promised to be in y e myddes of two or three gathered to gether in his name now by greater reason wil he be in an assemblie vniuersall we grant that so it may be presumed but there is a difference betuene a presumption and a necessarie conclusion For y e malice of man cōmeth often tymes vnto this point to abuse the name of God to establishe their lesings that suche may haue God in theire mouth whiche haue his enemy in their hart The weaknes of man is so great y t there is comonlie in him an infinite nombre of dissordinate affections whiche blind oure eyes so that we say that he whiche haeth none other foundation then the aduyse of men and the outward apperance of a Coūcell is rather in danger to be deceiued thē otherwys What then Wold we y t the doctrine of y e Churche should be vncertain seing it may erre No thing les For we confesse that as yet we know in a parte as Saint Paule saieth in this respect there is alweys error mingled with the veritie yet neuertheles God suffereth not that the veritie in y e substanciall pointes of oure saluatiō be euer so buried in all his Churche y t there is not alweys some nombre now more now lesse y t vnderstādeth y t whiche they oght to vnderstād do follow that whiche they oght to follow Thus we see that it came passe in Israell in the tyme of Elias and in the tyme of the captiuitie of Babilon in the tyme of the cūming of Iesus Christe when as scarsely was there found a Zacharie an Elizabeth a Ioseph a Uirgin Marie a Simeon and an Anna the Prophetesse whiche had a vnderstanding of the fulfilling of the Prophetes amongest so great corruptions of Scrybes Pharises and Sadduces Suche interruptions therefore in the Churche of God ꝓceding and cōming of the iniquitie of men be as a storme or cloudy wether whiche afterwardes he causeth to vanishe away with y e brightnes of his worde as it pleaseth him and according as he distributeth the secretes of his iudgementes and of mercies Are we willing lykewyse thus to condemne the ancient Councelles God forbid For as ye your selues know ryght well y t if it were in question to be reuled by them ye should change mo thinges then we ye haue trauelled therein these dayes past but we require y t the Scripture be the touche stone for to examyn all that is done and said in the Churche If this seme strange I pray you my Lordes to cōsider this moste renouned place of Saint Augustine writing vnto Maximin Arian in the seconde booke chaptre 14 Is there any generall Coūcell more authorised then the first called the Councell of Nece And what is y e Councell of Arimin A Councell reiected and cōdemned that worthely And whereof disputeth S. Augustine Euen of a principall article of the beleif y t which had bene before that often tymes fully resolued to wit of the Cōsubstancialitie of the Sonne of God in this mean season ye may see that S. Augustine witnesseth that for his part he is not astricted nether to y e Coūcell of Nece nor yet to the Coūcell of Arimin but that he will fight w t the Scriptures whiche be saieth he cōmon witnesses vnto bothe parties If any body will against this alledge the obscuritie of the Scriptures we must nedes confesse that whiche S. Paule saieth that y e naturall man knoweth not those thīges that be of God and that whiche Saint Peter sayeth y t the Scriptures be not of any priuate interpretation Well then if this obscuritie be so great that the Scriptures can not be exponded by them selues whence cometh this that Christe sēdeth vs no where els when he sayeth searche the Scriptures And how cōmeth it to pas y t Abraham being required by the vnhappy riche man to send some of the other world to admonishe them of this worlde they haue sayeth he Moses and the Prophetes if they beleue not them no more will they beleue when any shall ryse again from the dead And moreouer in what case had they bene in then that had no thing but y e scriptures of the Apostles before y t euer there was any cōmentaries written by the Ancients And yet further I remembre my Lorde Cardinall y t in youre oration youre aduyse was to receiue for sure interpretation and Apostolycall tradition that whiche haeth bene alweys