Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	apostle_n	church_n	succession_n	1,709	5	10.1649	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A51177	The coppy of a letter sent from France by Mr. Walter Mountagu to his father the Lord Privie Seale, with his answere thereunto also a second answere to the same letter by the Faukland.	Montagu, Walter, 1603?-1677.; Falkland, Lucius Cary, Viscount, 1610?-1643.; Manchester, Henry Montagu, Earl of, 1563?-1642.	1641 (1641)	Wing M2472; ESTC R6266	23,462	40

providence and goodnesse which Saint Augustine affirmes for his opinion directly in his Booke de vtil cred. cap. 16. saying if divine providence does preside over our humane affairs it is not to be doubted but that there is some authority constituted by the same God upon which going as upon certain steps we are carried to God Nor can it bee said hee meant the Scripture onely by these steps since experience shewes us by the continuall altercation about the right sense of severall of the most important places of it that what is contained there cannot be a competent rule to mankind which consisteth more of simple then learned men and besides the Scripture must have supposed to have beene kept in some hands whose authority must beget our acceptance of them which being no other then the Church of all ages we have no more reason to beleeve that it hath preserved the Scripture free from all corruption then that it hath maintained it selfe in a continua●● 〈…〉 isibility which Saint Augustine concludeth to be a marke of the true Church in these words in his booke contra Cecill 104. The true Church hath this certain signe that it cannot bee hid therefore it must bee knowne to all Nations but that part of the Protestant Donatist is unknown to many therefore cannot bee the true No inference can be stronger then from hence that the concealment of a Church disproves the truth of it Lastly not to insist upon the allegation of the sense of all the Fathers of the Church in severall ages which seemed to mee most cleere that which in this cause weighed much with mee was the Confession and Testimony of the approved Doctors themselves of the Protestant Church as Hooker in his booke of Eccles. Pol. pag. 126. God always had and must have some visible Church upon earth And Doctor Field the first of Eccle. cap. 10. It cannot bee but those that are the true Church must be knowne by the Profession and further the same Doctor saies how should the Church bee in the World and no body professe openly the saving truth of God And Doctor White in his defence of the way cap. 4. pag. 790. The providence of God hath left monuments and stories for the confirmation of our Faith and I confesse truly that our Religion is false if a continuall descent of it cannot be demonstrated by these monuments downe from Christs time this appeareth unto mee a direct submission of themselves to produce those apparent testimonies of the publique profession of their faith as the Catholikes demand but this I could never read nor know of any that performed For D. White himself for want of proof of this is fain to say in another place in his way to the Church p. 520. The Doctors of our faith have had a cōtinual succession though not visible to the world so that he flies from his undertaking of a conspicuous demonstration of the monuments of his faith to an invisible subterfuge or a beleefe without appearance for hee saith in the same Book in an other place pag. 4. All the externall government of the Church may faile so as a locall and personall succession of Pastors may be interrupted and pag. 40● We doe not contest for an externall succession it suffiseth ●hat they succeed in the Doctrine of the Apostles and faithfull who in all ages did embrace the same truth so as here hee removeth absolutely all externall proofes of succession which before hee consented to be guided by I cannot say I have verbally cited these Authors because I have translated these places though the Originall be in English yet I am sure their sense is no way injured and I have chosen to alleadge Doctor Whites authority because he is an Orthodox professor of the Protestant Church the reflection of the state of this question wherein I found the Protestants defend themselves onely by flying out of sight by confessing a long invisibility in their Church in apparence of Pastors and Doctors left mee much loosened from the fastnesse of my professed Religion but had not yet transported me to the Catholike Church for I had an opinion that our Divines might yet fill up this vacuitie with some more substantiall matter then I could meet with so I came back into England with a purpose of seeking nothing so intentively as this satisfaction and to this purpose I did covertly under another mans name send this my scruple to one in whose learning sufficiencie I had much affiance in these termes Whether there was no visible succession to be proved in the Protestant Church since the Apostles time downe to Luther and what was to be answered to that objection Besides the confession of invisibilitie for so many ages to this I could get no other answer but that the point had been largely and learnedly handled by Doctor White and many others of our Church upon this I resolved to informe my selfe in some other points which seemed to mee unwarrantable and superstitious in the Ceremónies of the Church of Rome since I had such an inducement so little satisfaction in a point which seemed to mee so essentiall and in all these scruples I found mine owne mistake in the belief of the Tenets of the Roman Church gave me the onely occasion of scandall not the practice of their doctrine and to confirme mee in the satisfaction of all them I found the practice and authority of most of the ancient Fathers and in the Protestant Refutation of these Doctrines the Recusation of their Authorities as men that might erre so that the question seemed then to me whether I would rather hazard the erring with them then with the later Reformers which consequently might erre also in dissenting from them since then my resolution of reconciling my selfe to the Roman Church is not lyable to any suspition of too forward or precipitate resignation of my selfe my judgment may perchance be censured of seducement my affection cannot bee of corruption Upon these Reasons I did soone after my returne last into England reconcile my selfe to the Roman Catholike Church in the belief and convincement of it to be the true ancient and Apostolicall Church by her externall marks and her internall objects of faith and doctrine and in her I resolve to live and die as the best way to salvation when I was in England I did not studie dissimulation so dexterously as if my fortune had read it to me nor doe I now professe it so desperatly as if it were my fortunes Legacie for I doe not believe it so dangerous but it may recover for I know the Kings wisdome is rightly informed that the Catholike Faith doth not tend to the alienation of the subject it rather super-infuseth a reverence and obedience to Monarchie and strengtheneth the bands of our obedience to our naturall Prince and his grace and goodnesse shall never finde any other occasion of diversion of them from the naturall and usuall exercise of themselves upon

contend no longer But wee renounce all men alike as inventors of Religion or any part of it but hold only the Apostolicall doctrine of the ancient Primitive and Catholike Church presume not to coine any new Creed Yet we are not unwilling to grant that Luther was one but not the first of many that restored the purity of the doctrine which had been long smothered by the Papacie our faith if you take in the whole is no other but what is exiconized in the Apostles Creed included in the Scriptures If you take it in a lower and straighter way for so much of it as is opposed to the corruption of popery you must remember that these points are neither the whole nor greatest points of faith there are not any points of our faith but we are able to shew they had mayntainers few or many in all ages since the Apostles time and every of these ages those substructures of Popery opposed some by one man some by an other I wonder therefore to see you carried away with that common and triviall calumny that Luther was the inventor of our faith and why say you that for the intervall of 800 yeers before there was no apparent profession of faith different from Rome and this you collect by historicall search of all the stories and Records Ecclesiasticall and Civill It seems Italy affords you no coppies of our Writers else might you see in them a list which they carry out through all these spaces and shew you that most of our tenents have had the suffrage of the learn'dst of Romes side and how many men in the decursion of time from the ancientest of Fathers have declared themselves and some of them apparently yee earnestly contended for the truth of our doctrine And where you object that Waldo Wickliff Hus had scarce any relation to the professed Protestancie if you meane because we disclaim those horrid opiniōs wch are put upon them how true God knows therein you say truly Neither they to us nor we to them have any relation but in the main points of doctrine touching faith and opposition of the superstitions and usurpation of the papacie wee have a joynt consent of all the best Writers Historians and Divines of both sides that they and we consent in one It is strange therefore to say that these and wee had no relation to the Protestant profession who for substance of Religion held as we doe their errours only we own not and the consent of times doe all agree that the Waldenses flew out against their corruptions 400 yeeres before Luther was borne nay saith Renerus Quidam dicunt quòd secta illa duraverie à tempore Silvestri alii quod à tempore Apostolorum deriving their fundamentall doctrine from the time of the Apostles nor were they few sed multiplicati super arenas maris nor plebeians only sed principum favore armati As the Kings of Arragon the Earles of Tholouse and many moe So that there are witnesses more then sufficient that there were many who opposed themselvs to the Papacie in the Protestants tenents long before Luther This is the first supposition failing I will now let you see the mistakes in the subsequent passages and open to you my self hoping yet that I may draw you againe to me You as you conceive having shewed a defect of visibilitie in our Church till Luthers time labour to prove a necessity of visibilitie to every true Church if it were granted that it were simply necessary to the essentiating of a Church to be able to demonstrate in all times both the visible number of professors of the truth as also a visible succession of Pastors we are able to demonstrate both these for our defence to bee as unquestionable in our Church as in the Church of Rome they that are otherwise minded will account this a bold undertaking but it is no hard matter to do Wherefore the vanitie of that question to aske where our Church was before Luther becomes not any man that hath read any thing of our Church monuments But you would seeme to mee to prove it two wayes first by the testimonie of our owne Divines Secondly by argument By testimonies of our Divines you would have Doctor Field Doctor White and Master Hookes to confesse needfulnesse of visibilitie and yet for their own Church fly to latencie For the second you instance Doctor Whitaker and Doctor White one of them to confesse our Church for many ages to have beene in a secret solitude and the other to let goe his defence of visible succession by flying to an invisible subterfuge of non-apparency if you had better perused the truth of those Writers they would have given you full satisfaction but you mistake both the persons and the points These made a demonstration of those 3 points First that neither the Churches obscurity is repugnant to the visibilitie of it Secondly nor the visibility of it such as excludes all latencie Nor yet the latencie of Orthodox Christians in the swaying time of Popery such as had not requisite lineaments of an accomptable visibilitie But you must know that visibilitie doth not alwayes carrie the same height but admits of degrees so that wee cannot say that that wants visibilitie which hath it in a lower degree The Sun compared with it selfe is in a degree visible though in a mist yet not so cleerly visible as when it shines out so it is with the state of the Church because her splendour is not in termino but such as receives degrees by augmentation or diminution like as the Sun is as truly visible under a cloud as in his brightnesse though not so cleerly visible though not to admit the Church to be visible except shee be glorious is an errour for there 's a variation of the Churches visibilitie in respect of her object the want of which consideration I believe is one cause why so many deceive themselves in this point secondly there is another diversity which ariseth from the visible object some may see and will not there the fault is not in the object but in the beholders Philosophers say Visibilia non sunt minus visibilia cum non videntur quam quando videntur The objects of sight remain still discernable when they are not discerned so it is with the Church there are strictures of visibility discernable in her obscure condition but it is possibile non visum which fals out when men will not open their eyes or they shut them on purpose which hapned in the prevailing times of popery when this notwithstanding yet there were lights which appeared by the defence of the truth and the discovery of errour in every age of the intervall But sure our men labour in vain to demonstrate that visibilitie whilst they of the Papacie are so dis-affected as not to acknowledge it upon any terms otherwise this controversie had long since been ended if they had been as well disposed to see as we

ready to shew our visibility in this question men are to consider that there is a double splendor of the Church which makes way for the visibilitie of it The proper splendour of a Church consists in puritie of doctrine The common splendour of a Church consists in the outward accommodations which appertain not to the being but the well being of the Church as temporall peace multitude of professors locall succession of Pastors yet persecution may interrupt this succession of Pastors it may cut off the multitude of professors heresie may so far prevail as to make the Orthodox Church pull in her head witnesse the time of Arianisme when few but godly Athanasius and some with him were faine to keepe in corners and of this our Divines are to be understood when they speake of our latencie that for this outward splendour it suffered a great obscuritie for divers hundred yeeres yet when it was at the lowest the doctrine was visible and some professors still in the eye of the World I would wish you well to consider the things which I shall tell you The state of the Church is so ordered by our great Master Christ that she is to expect her times of obscurity as well as her times of splendor hee hath made her estate militant and appointed her to a passive condition as well as an active designed her to vicissitudes of obscurity as well as luster and shews her no lesse glorious in her obscurity then in her triumph as Tertullian saith of vertue Extruitur duritia destruitur mollitia 2 This visibilitie represented by an innumerous multitude locall Succession Secular estate these were not considered in the first times when the Church stood sound nor in the later times when she got some recovery only in the intermediate when she lay under the crosse and were these the probats of Faith it had bin ill with the Israelites Church in the time of Elias worse with the Apostolicall Church when the Scribes and Pharisies sate in Moses Chaire worst in the time of Arianisme and in times of Antichristianisme which shall come as most Writers say 3 This glorious succession which Rome so much brags of is a deceitfull medium whereby to measure the truth of a Church because a Church may be a true Church without it and be also a false Church with it Non colligitur ibi necessariò esse Ecclesiam ubi est successio saith Bellarmine though Stapleton be of another minde Alexandria challengeth succession as well as Rome the Church of Constantinople takes her pedigree from Saint Andrew the Apostle and brings it down to our times A false Church may have succession and a true Church may want it otherwise you will grant that Rome is no true Church the Church of Rome hath sometimes lyen empty sometimes it hath carried double and both of them have bin deposed these broken links marre the chaine of that succession But because this rather concernes the persons not the thing It is otherwise to be cleerly shewed that it may be a true Church that hath not this uninterrupted succession for else no Church at all could be true in her first plantation For successions are by descent descents have no place in first originals whereas the orthodox faith doth the very first day put her in possession of Apostolical succession as Tertullian well saith That Churches wch have not their original descent from the Apostles are Apostolicall propter consanguinitatem doctrinae The place which you cite out of the fourth to the Ephesians proves cleerly the necessity of orthodox Pastors not of locall Succession you may hereby see how in the informing of your selfe in this particular you are overtaken this thing also much troubles me that your Letters said that when you last came back out of Italy you sought nothing so attentively as satisfaction in these points of controversie especially that touching the visibilitie of our Church in all ages but could receive none Could you never in all the while of your last being in England find the time to acquaint me with your desire doubtles I must say you did in this time study the dissimulation of your intention otherwise I must have known it I was heretofore more indulgent towards you for God knows it Walter the sonne of my bodie was never so deare unto me as the salvation of my sonne Walters soule your yonger yeers can witnesse how I shewed you the way which I my selfe took to settle mine own salvation for though it was my happinesse to be derived from vertuous and religious parents yet I tooke not my Religion meerly by discent but studied and examined the ground on which I was to found my faith I read both Papists and Protestants I found both confident and contradictory Et quoties palpitavit mihi tremulum cor before I setled either way sometimes thinking safest to mean well and to keep unsetled either way yet I saw a necessity laid on mee to be one of the two Churches but how to find out which of them was the true Church whereof I must be a member if I would secure my salvation hic labor hoc opus est I easily resolved there was not two Churches whereof a man might chuse which to be of and after long study I found cleerly that to be the true Church which constantly held the common faith which faith had the Scripture for the rule this known and resolved which is undoubted then I was not scared with that fearfull censure of the Roman Church which pronounced all damned that are not of that Church But how much am I distasted to finde severall arguments made in the Letter all to insinuate that the Scriptures are not a competent rule of faith and first varietie of interpretation secondly obscuritie of some places thirdly inauthentiquences of themselves fourthly their authoritie dependent on the Church fiftly the puritie of them warranted by the visibility of the Church sixtly made Authentike by the Churches authoritie strange assertions as if the true Church were not to be tried by the true faith but the true faith by the Church I know my self bound to believe the authoritie of that Church which makes Scripture the rule of faith but as for the act of any Church though it be a fit Ministry to shew me the way yet it is not of authority sufficient of it selfe to secure me of my salvation from true faith the true Church is inferr'd and which is the true Church when all is done must be tried by the Scripture but it is now with us as it was in the time of Chrysostome when there was so much question which was the true Church and men were of so many different opinions about it as none could tell what Church to bee of or what Religion was safest to trust to so saith the Father of the Scriptures which in matters of faith necessary to salvation speak so truly so fully so plainly as it is but a shift for a man