Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	apostle_n	church_n	prove_v	2,236	5	6.1879	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A91884	A moderate answer to Mr. Prins full reply to certaine observations on his first twelve questions: vvherein all his reasons and objections are candidly examined and refuted. A short description of the congregationall way discovered. Some arguments for indulgence to tender consciences modestly propounded. By the same author.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.; Robinson, Henry, 1605?-1664?, attributed name.	1645 (1645)	Wing R1676; Thomason E26_20; ESTC R13022	43,033	54

Church is a particular congregation of Saints having power of censures within themselves and exercising all the Ordinances of Christ Now this Antiquity proves to be in the primitive times even many yeeres after the Apostle but suppose the contrary that there could not any such footsteps of this way be found in Antiquity yet have we no ground to thinke it s not true great was the Apostacie of the Churches from the Apostles doctrine that truth hath beene lost for a long time among the most It is a great mercy that since that defection from the pure wayes of Christ to Antichrist there have beene any glimmerings of light preserved any in secret that might worship him after his owne minde that any thing hath beene refined and restored to its primitive institution yet all times are not alike now God hath in an abundant cleere manner so scattered the mists of Popery and darknesse hath revealed many truths which formerly lay hid Unhappy we if we yet see not more then the godly formerly did who but then came out of Antichristian darknesse God is now opening the mysteries of the Gospell discovering the truths that concerne Christs Kingly Office why may not this be one though never discovered before or if discovered yet crusht and made light of The opinion of the thousand yeers which was antiently generally condemned for a Heresie is now imbraced as a precious truth and maintained by many learned lights as Alstede Mede Doctor Twisse Doctor Stoughton with divers others That is ancient which is primitive and to be found in the Scriptures neither are the names of these that either have beene of this judgement or have or doe practise it of meane and contemptible reputation but they have given sufficient testimony to the world of their learning and godlinesse as learned Baines Ames Cotton with the many in these times both in New-England here and other places men not a jot behinde any of their Predecessors in the knowledge of the mysteries of the Gospel yea anointed with the gifts of the Spirit above most of their fellows Notwithstanding that you say that for any reverend godly person who now contends about this new Modell though I reverence their persons and judgements too in other things yet I cannot subscribe to them in this new dangerous by way Yet those men cannot think you reverence dither their persons or judgements for then you would not be so rash as to condemn what they hold before you knew what it was or whether it was so or no for either you think them judicious and conscientious or not if the former then you would judge what they hold they have ground for if the latter that then they durst not practise that is generally opposed without a clear warrant at least in their own judgements from the Scriptures Neither do they desire you should subscribe to their judgements in this or any thing else yet this is your duty to give them the right hand of fellowship a while and not rail on and condemn with all bitternesse the way they practise untill you had heard what they could say for themselves In the seventh saith he the grants That the Law of nature that teacheth men to unite themselves into one nationall State or civill Government doth likewise teach them to joyn and subject themselves to one nationall Church and to nationall Synods and Parliaments in point of Church-government Let any one judge that reads what I answered whether there be so much as a shadow for such a mis-recitation the sunne of my Answer was this That the Law of nature teacheth every man to joyn himself to such a particular Society where every man may have his personall vote in every thing that concerns him as well as any one or a Company to set up either one or more over them to whose judgement they will submit and who shall be the Vltinum of all their Appeals and Counsels And that there is as great a sutablenesse to the Law of Nature in a Democraticall and Aristocraticall Government of which the Congregation consists as in a Monarchicall or 〈◊〉 Arisocraticall The Liberties of Saints and Subjects differ though Subjects may put theirs into the hands of others the Saints cannot theirs without ingratitude for Christs purchase of them and disloyalty to his Soveraignty who alone is King of his Churches for if I give up my power unto others I must stand to what they determine what ever my Conscience be to the contrary and what if they crie He grants that the Magistrate hath not still power over mens Consciences is over mens bodies yet he saith that God hath enjoyned us to be subject to every lawfull Ordinance of man and not repugnant to the Word c. To which I answer What if the commands be repugnant to direct Consequence of Scripture though not against any expresse Texts And what if a man thinks it repugnant to the Word must a man obey it that which to me is repugnant to the Word is my sin if I do it Besides what if it should be repugnant Either you must say the Magistrate can command nothing repugnant to the Word and therefore must be obeyed or else a man must see it in his own judgement not to be repugnant before he can obey it God forbid a tittle of the power God hath given Magistrates should be taken from them yet I would things were so stated that Christ might not lose his Prerogative Master Prin in his other twelve Queries and the latter end of this labours to perswade the Parliament that these whom he cals Independents are against the power of Parliaments on purpose to make them odious in their eyes But let that honourable Assembly know that what ever power the Principles of Presbytery will give them the Congregationall way will give much more neither have the Parliament truer friends then they who will be more willing to venture their lives and sacrifice all they have for them onely this is desired by them which they know is the desire of that Honourable Assembly that the Rights and Liberties Christ hath purchased by his own precious blood and left the Saints as his last Legacie may not be taken away by the secular power as that the secular power might not be encroached on by Christian Liberty After this he goes on to justifie his bitter and unchristian passage in comparing our Church-meetings to the Conventicles of of the Arrians Donatists c. Could you finde no smoother or lovinger comparison to scandalize us by Can no other title be bad enough but a Conventicle A name given by the Bishops and all their crew to all the godly meetings of the Saints Take heed that you that are so skilled in the Bishops language come not to take up their weapons too what do you but in one word cal us hereticks Schismaticks and the worst of men For this you say in the Marthat 35. Eli. c. 1. none are Conventicles but

conscience we can submit actually to the power of a Presbyteriall government who in our judgments thinke it not the power Christ would have his Churches be governed by I know not unlesse he would have us be the veryest hypocrites time-servers these which will do any thing to save our selves surely how ever he can practise one thing and judge otherwise of it we dare not for as we account it below rationall creatures to put out their own eyes to see by other means so we thinke it hypocrisie in the highest to practise that our judgments are against that is not a humane action much lesse christian that is not done praeeunte judicio intellectus and how much lesse when it is against the thing To his eleventh Quaere he saith I give only a negative answer and then declaime against Presbyterie without any ground or reason which he saith he will prove no further except in two particulars First that independency is in reality meer separation and Brownisme lately christened with a new title to take off its Odium To which I shall say no more in a way of answer but this that it will be well if Presbytery prove not in reality a tyrannicall Episcopacy only newly baptized with the fair word regulated a regulated Episcopacy saith Master Pryn himself and I wish it may not break its bridle shortly Secondly he saith that we find what bloody divisions wars Schismes the toleration but of one Religion in our Realme contrary to that established viz. Popery and Papists hath produced in all our Dominions c. To which I answer First that there is no comparison between Popery and this way we speak for they differing in all fundamentalls their principles being absolutely against the secular power which is not of their Religion neither is ours different Religion but the same only in some points wherein the beauty of Religion lies we differ we have the same faith baptisme we all professe the same Christ yea we differ but in a point and that meerly out of conscience Secondly how will you help the growing of Sects do what you can they will grow not all the counsells yet and strictest governments in the world have ever kept their dominions free nay the more severitie is used the more they will grow for that which is opposed and cried out against men will the more prye into Bishops made more Puritans against their will then ever was before and it will be so in other things too men will be doubting whether that power be lawfull which is so cruell errors are like camorile the more you tread them downe the more they will grow let them alone they will fall off themselves Thirdly Uniformity is no marke of a true Church that is the Papists glory the Apostle saith there must be heresies that the truth may be manifested this is the glory of the Saints that though their light differ yet their hearts are one and they love one another though in some things they have not received equall knowledge Yet farther to come to this way for that is it you intend that there may not be any sufferance of it If it must not be tolerated it s either for somthing in its self or for its inconsistency with states or for feare that they should grow too numerous for the power of the Magistrate to curbe For the first let all the world judge that knowes it what it holds I know nothing that either in its foundation or structure hath any poyson or sting in it any thing that may not in charity be borne with that seeks not preeminence or jurisdiction over others it meddles not with other mens matters to disturbe them in their peace all that it differs from you is in matters of Discipline and what is not immediatly belonging to salvation yet they are the liberties of Christ as is conceived As Secondly neither is it inconsistent with States for it was set up under the Heathen Emperours that were the most cruell and there is nothing in its principles that hath so much as a shadow of inconsistency for it meddles not with their power besides we see in other Kingdoms as flourishing States as any are many others besides this way are tolerated yet no disturbance to the State yea though the publike government of the Church be Presbyteriall he knowes little in History who knowes not that men of different Religion have been suffered and tolerated to enjoy their conscience yea even among Heathens how much more when the difference is only in smaller things States lose nothing by preserving the Liberties of mens consciences In France the Protestants are accounted the best Subjects they are tolerated contrary to the publike Government of the State yet are not inconsistent with the well being and flourishing condition of it And surely even Papists will rise up in judgement against us who suffer those who are contrary to their principles and Religion to enjoy their consciences if we shall not suffer these who differ not in Religion absolutely but in points of lesser consequence to injoy their Liberties amongst us If upon triall it proves inconsistent with State then may the Magistrate curbe them But this is the fear you will say lest they grow to a Party and be too strong for the Magistrate First It s against their Principles to have any hand in opposing the Magistrate to keep up their own Priviledges Yet secondly If there were any such thought which their soul abhors yet there are many eyes over them who will watch them close enough to take the least advantage against them whereby to bring them into bondage Besides they are the smallest and most contemptible Party in the Kingdom This may as much nay more probably be feared of the Presbytery who are more numerous and of greater sway and we say the same Who shall restrain them And what if they take distaste against the proceedings of Parliament or the like having got so much power in the Kingdom what will become of things then The State gives not Presbytery any power but that it supposeth it is able to restrain and overtop them if they offend and grow insolent and it may on the same consideration give a toleration unto others knowing that when ever it breaks out it can soon check and bound them Besides as Master Pryn saith himself Such a thing as not to be presumed of before it be actually committed But yet further That there ought to be an indulgence unto such as differ in lesser matters for to that I onely speak now First That naturall right we have to the Kingdom though I will not urge it as an Argument as well as the Presbyterians that cryes loud for it we are men as free born as they have as great interest here as they nay many of us having been formerly deprived of their Liberties while others did eat the sweet and drink the fat at home Yea further we have ingaged our selves in getting a setled Peace

those who can really be judged to be so if prophane persons must be in the Church as you say then I know no reason but all may be in the Church and no man in the world may be said to be out of the Church for the most are ungodly if ungodly ones do steal in among the Saints to a Church they prosper not and Christ will discover them to their everlasting shame and more dreadfull judgments follow none as these Christ dwells in his house which is the Church and it s no pleasure to Christ to see a mixture among his owne he that made a whip of cords to drive out the buyers and sellers out of the materiall Temple will take rods of iron to whip out such ungodly wretches I am sure Christs bread belongs to no such dogs only the children are welcome and he hath given power to his Church to keep out these that have not a judged right Againe if prophane persons and such as walke not like Saints are to be cast out of the church then such as are judged so must not be admitted into the church but the former is true Ergo. That they are to be cast out of the Church is cleer from the Scriptures Mat. 18. 1 Cor. 5. that therefore they ought not to be admitted is as cleare for the same ground is in both they are admitted in because they walke as Saints and so are judged to be Saints they are cast out because they walk not as such the truth is this principle will soon lessen a Nationall Church and therefore no wonder the Presbyterians are shye of holding it for they must cast out the most of their members assoon as they receive them in It s the strangest thing to me and I startle at it many times what strict rules the Presbyterians have laid down in their Sermons in print Master D●…s preparation to the Sacrament and their Sermons before the Sacrament every moneth in which they lay on men such qualifications both habituall and actuall that there is not one in a hundred of the best Saints can follow them and yet blame their brethren for keeping of there which they cannot judge to have the least degree of these qualifications they tell them it belongs not to them they will eate and drinke their owne damnation on and yet cry out in these that would not have these poor souls contract such guilt and draw on such ruine on their own souls and therefore keep them back do you take in these who are drunkards whoremongers c. into communion in the ordinances blame us not if we keep our selves from such defilements For his answer saith he to that of Act. 15 all ages Churches till this present have held it as an expresse warrant for provinciall and nationall Synods and their making Cannons in Church affaires I shall not say much to this not doubting but we shal see these things shortly in print which our brethren have urged in the Assembly How that can be a formall Synod I could never see yet made forth For First This was not a gathering of the Elders of many Churches who make a Synod but only some messengers whether Elders or no the Text speaks not occasionally sent up to Jerusalem to that Church there Secondly here was the whole multitude viz. the Brethren present besides the Apostles and Elders and the Letter that is sent is as much written in their name as of any of the Elders now the Brethren or multitude are not usuall to be Members of Synods Thirdly the Message is sent as the mind of the Holy Ghost and not their bare judgments but that which they had principally received by inspiration from the Spirit and is not now ordinary to any Synod for what Synod I can say it seemeth good to the Holy Ghost and us to lay such things on you Fourthly if this were a Synod made up of Elders of severall Congregations and that Paul and Barnabas went not up to prove the false Apostles lyars but to have the truth manifested which they could not do then a Synod of Elders have more power then bare Apostles to order things in the Church Paul and Barnabas were men very unfit to be Apostles if they could not have determined such a question whether it was necessary for the Gentiles to be circumcised who were to plant and order things in all the Churches and who had power over all Churches and were to write the man I of God to them surely one Apostle had more knowledge of the things of God and of matters of controversie in the Church then all the Synods in the world besides nay all are to follow what they loft to the Churches it were greatly to diminists the Apostles power and the highnesse of that office to think than they could not determine such a question but must go to a Synod to have it cleared up to them Besides it was an Apostle when they came up to Jerusalem viz. Peter who decided the controversie and Paul and Barnabas were men of as great judgement and had as much power as he However we think not that to be a Synod yet the convening of Assemblies and Synods for advice and counsell we deny not but that any Synod or Councell hath an authoritative jurisdiction to impose Laws and Canons for all Churches to walk by we conceive cannot be proved neither from this of Acts 15. or any other Text Yea even this Assembly now among us the Parliament have called onely for advice not intending to give them a power of jurisdiction over them and all the Kingdome Master Pryn saith and takes much pains to prove in his late triumphing book that Synods and Councells and Magistrates have ever used to make Laws for the Church to exercise a coercive power in matters of Religion De Facto and he might have saved himself labour to have proved it but whether De Jure there is such a power invested in them and from what Scripture I have not yet seen and should be glad to be informed by him To my ninth Querie saith he and Argument in it he returns nothing worthy Reply but upon this Petitio principii that the Scriptures and the Apostles have prescribed a set form of Government c. which I have proved before and that the Churches in the Apostles dayes were Independent though doubtlesse saith he all Churches were then subject to the Apostles Laws and Edicts c. therefore not Independent What there is in this worthy of Reply I am ignorant of yet this is to be noted hwo the Presbyterians make a market of this scandalous name of Independents they have fastened on us viz. To make the world beleeve that we are subject to no Laws that neither Gods Word nor mans is a rule to us for this is the naturall sense of his words he saith The Primitive Churches were subject to the Apostles Laws Ergo Not Independent As if we held that we were