And Saint Iohn witnesseth that our Sauiour Christ saith Iohn 6.53 Except yee eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his blood you haue no life in you and many other testimonies which I omit It wil conuince the Councell of Nice of error in decréeing for the worship of Images contrary to the second commandement But what shall I néede to descend to particularities it will conuince your late Councell of Trent and all other Councels in all those points of doctrine wherein you varie from vs if any Papist dare vndertake to bring the controuersies betwéene vs to that triall And surely since they will seeme to bring Scriptures to prooue the authoritie of the church and that the church cannot erre I sée no reason why they should refuse to make them iudge of all differences betwéene vs. But I maruell they vrge these places of Scripture to prooue that the church representatiue cannot erre séeing they are not able to shew that any one ancient Father hath so vnderstood them or that the whole church is represented in a generall Councell Name one Father that is ancient and not counterfeit for your credit sake that hath interpreted these places of Scripture or any other in that case as you doe If you cannot the world may iustly holde you for wranglers and abusers both of Scriptures and Fathers But let vs a little examine the force of those Scriptures which if they were all granted make nothing against vs if they bee rightly vnderstood The first is When two or thrée are gathered together c. This place is as pregnant for two or thrée faithfull men assembled in Christs name as to a Nationall or a Prouinciall Councell Neither doeth it giue any greater priuiledge to a Generall Councell than it doeth vnto them Bellar. li. 1. de Conc. ca. 12. though it bee alleaged by Bellarmine as the ground for the authorising of Councels All which promise notwithstanding your selues grant That both Nationall and Prouinciall Councels may erre The next place is the sixtéenth of Iohn where the holy Ghost is promised to the Apostles to leade them into all trueth which spirit of trueth is promised to the church and to euery particular member thereof for whome our Sauiour Christ prayeth saying Sanctifie them in thy trueth thy worde is trueth Ioh. 17.17.19 20. And againe I pray not for these alone but for them also that shall beleeue in mee through their worde But what maketh this for generall Councels more then the whole church or euery faithfull member thereof For although this prooueth that the holy Ghost shall euer remayne with the church and with euery true member of the same yet must wee not hereof conclude though it bee as pregnant for euery faithfull particular man as for the whole That either euery member of Christ or euerie Pastor that is the Apostles successour cannot erre Neither is this to be restrained to generall Councels or to the Pope neither must wee thinke that any visible Church may challenge all priuiledges that the Apostles had as necessary to the conuersion of the world Rhem. Test Iohn 16. But your Rhemists will tell you that to teach all trueth and to preserue in trueth and from error the holy Ghost is promised and performed onely to the Church and the choice gouernour and generall Councels Vpon which the Papists conclude that if the Church cannot erre the gouernours of the church cannot erre Is not this substantiall reasoning The whole church cannot erre Ergo the Pastors and preachers cannot erre Deale plainely and directly Do you hereby conclude that all Pastors cannot erre or that no Pastor can erre For to say that no Pastor can erre were apparant madnesse and to say that all Pastors cannot erre stands you in no stead neither is this a good argument The whole Church cannot erre that is all and euery faithfull cannot erre Ergo all Pastors cannot erre This is no kind of consequent for some of the faithfull may be directed to the trueth and they no Pastors nor preachers and many preachers may be preserued from error and they no Bishops and many Bishops may kept in the faith and they not assembled And a great number of those that be assembled may be righty affected and yet not the most part of them And the greater side may be well disposed and yet not the Bishop of Rome without whose confirmation you hold no Councell lawfull And therefore this argument is very childish The whole Church cannot erre Ergo Generall Councels cannot erre and specially the Pope of whom wee shall speake more particularly hereafter neither hath the holy Ghost filled with the vnmeasurable abundance of grace any but Christ Iohn 3.34 Iohn 1.16 for God giueth not the spirit by measure to him of whose fulnesse wee all receiue And it may well bee gathered from the Scriptures 2. Cor. 10.13 Eph. 4.7 that though the holy Ghost be giuen to the Elect yet hee hath giuen it by measure as I may say with Saint Paul not to this end that they may not erre but that they may not erre to death For what thing soeuer is receiued of another it is receiued according to the capacitie of that which receiueth it The last is the 1. Tim. 3.15 The Church is the pillar and ground of trueth therefore it cannot erre If this argument were granted would it follow hereupon that general Councels could not erre but this is sufficiently refuted before And you knowe that Peter was a pillar of trueth and yet hee erred and was reprooued by Saint Paul Gal. 2. yea your Diuines of Paris Articuli Parisienses but lately resolued that Peter erred in faith when Paul reprooued him And the very drift and scope of the place sheweth That Timothie is not sent by Saint Paul to the church to learne his duety but to the Scripture These things write I vnto thée sayth hee hoping to come shortly but if I tarie long that thou mayest knowe how thou oughtest to behaue thy selfe in the house of God which is the church of the liuing GOD the pillar and ground of trueth This church then which Timothie was conuersant in is the church of Ephesus called by S Paul The pillar and ground of trueth But this church of Ephesus hath condemned the doctrine of the Popes supremacie Conc. Flor. Sess vlt. Chalcocondylas de Reb. Turc lib. 6. to which other churches of the East haue likewise condescended Therefore if that be true still which the Church teacheth because S. Paul calleth it the pillar and ground of trueth then the doctrine of the Popes supremacie is wicked and Papistrie is heresie yea euen this church notwithstanding it was called the pillar and ground of trueth is now left desolate to Mahomets wicked impietie But let vs sée by some few testimonies of the Fathers how they haue expounded this place and whether they haue applied it to generall Councels as the Papists do and not
which be Canonicall and which be Apocrypha Protestant 8 How do you know which is the Church And by what meanes may it be knowen that the Church hath authoritie to determine which be Scriptures and which of them be Canonicall and which be Apocrypha Papist There be many notes and markes reckoned vp by the learned of our side by which the Church may be knowen But we insist chiefly vpon these Antiquitie Vnitie Vniuersality Succession and the power of Miracles And for the authority of the Church it is prooued by the Scriptures Protestant 9 This answere is common to all Heretikes for they alleage somtimes the a Author ope Imper. in Mat. Ho. 48. Church sometime b Iren. adu Haere lib. 3. cap. 2. Traditions sometime c Aug. coÌ„tr Maxim Ariâ— episc li. 1. Councels sometime d De Bapt. c. 6. li. 3. Fathers sometime e In Ioh. ca 2. tract 13 Miracles sometime f De vnit eccle c. 16. Visions sometime g Epist 65. ad gener Succession of Bishops yea h Act. 19.27 Demetrius pretended Vniuersalitie And the i Act. 17 18 19. Philosophers Epicures and Stoickes Antiquity And k Vinc. Lir. ca. 6 ca. 4. Vincentius Lirinensis disproueth Vniuersalitie by the example of the Arrians and Antiquity by the example of the Donatists And for their l In Chron. Suput Rom. prat Sigon de Regn. Ital li. â— Vnitie let that appeare in the seuerall oppositions of their Popes one condemning the decrées of another and decréeing one contrary to another And therefore this is no sufficieÌ„t reason for a man to ground his faith and Religion if we beléeue the m StapletoÌ„ Fortresse Hart. ag Ra. pag. 118. Papists in the like cause for it is a common obiection by them that because Heretikes alleage the Scripture therefore they are no suffieient rule Moreouer this answere passeth the limits of the proposition for it presupposeth the authoritie of the Church to be prooued by the Scriptures and the Scriptures to be prooued by the authority of the Church which is Ignotum per ignotius Idem per idem A proofe of a thing vnknowen by a thing lesse knowen and so no proofe at all Therefore to procéede to the next part of the diuision what doe you vnderstand by Traditions Papist I vnderstand Apostilicall doctrine commonly called vnwritten verities and as D.B. P. in his booke against M. Perkins diuides them Some are Diuine some Apostolicall and some Ecclesiasticall all which according to the Councel of Trent are to be receiued with equall reuerence Conc. Trid. Sess 4. and religious affection as we do the Scriptures Protestant 10 How doe you proue Traditions or vnwritten verities to bee Apostolicall doctrine and that they be Diuine Apostolicall and Ecclesiasticall and that they are to bee receiued with equall reuerence and religious affection as we doe the Scriptures Papist 2. Thess 2 15. I proue it by the Scriptures interpreted by the Church Saint Paul saith Hold the Trations which yee haue learned whether it bee by word Conc. Trid. â—ess 4. or by Epistle which by the Churches exposition proueth vnwritten verities to be receiued with equall authoritie to the Scriptures and to explane the same D.B.P. aforesayd affirmeth that Diuine Traditions come from our Sauiour Christ Apostolicall Traditions from the Apostles And the Decrees of the Church hee tearmeth Ecclesiasticall Traditions which are likewise of equall authoritie with the Scriptures Protestant 11 This is a common fault with you to vse this point of Sophistrie called by the Logicians Petitio principij for you wil stil take it for graunted that you are the Church though you neuer prooue it And this is a necessary consequence That if the trueth be doubted of the church must néedes bee much more doubted of because the Church is the number of men professing the trueth And how can the professors of the trueth be seuered from others so long as the trueth by which they should bee knowen is in question Therefore the supposing your selues to be the church when your faith Religion should be tried is fond vain But if S. Paul in that place by Deliuered Tradition meane nothing but the doctrine deliuered to them by word of mouth yet comprised in Scripture too then must you graunt that you are deceiued to thinke that vnwritten Traditions are approued by S. Pauls Traditions Now what the things were which S. Paul deliuered by word to the Thessalonians is shewed in the 17 of the Acts saying Now as they passed thorow Amphipolis and Apolonia they came to Thessalonica where was a Synagogue of the Iewes and Paul as his maner was entred in vnto them and thrée Sabbath dayes hee discoursed vnto them out of the Scriptures opening and alleaging That Christ must haue suffered and risen againe c. In which wordes it is opened both what Paul deliuered to the Thessalonians by word and from whence From whence Out of the Scriptures What That it behooued Christ to suffer and rise againe Besides Saint Paul witnesseth both to small and great that hee said no other thing than that which the Prophets and Moyses did say should come Act. 26 22 The Traditions therefore that Paul doth exhort the Thessalonians to hold is the Tradition of the Gospel as Saint Ambrose writing vpon the same place calleth it very well which the reason also doth prooue that Saint Ambrose noteth that Paul doth there gather saying God hath raised you to saluation by our Gospel therefore stand ye fast and holde the Traditions which ye haue learned whether it be by word or by Epistle Now I hope there is none so impudent to denie that the Gospel is written But here another difficultie incounters vs If it were granted by the Churches interpretation that there were doctrines or Traditions Diuine Apostolicall or Ecclesiasticall deliuered by word of mouth vpon what sure grounds might wee be assured which be the Traditions that were so deliuered by Christ his Apostles or the Church Papist The ancient Fathers chiefe Papists doe plainely teach that many points of doctrine wherein you varie from vs as halowing the Font the blessing of the oyle the anointing the Baptized Exorcismes Fastes Festiuities prayer for the dead prayer to Saints worshipping of Images the oblation of the Sacrifice their Annealing their Primacie of Rome their fiue pretended Sacraments the merit of workes their satisfactions the numbring their sinnes to the Priest their Real presence their halfe CommunioÌ„ c. See the preface for Priests and See Master Middletons booke called Papisto-Mastix Sect. 5. almost all these things which you defend against vs are proued by the Fathers to be deliuered by Tradition Protestant 12 This sheweth euidently that you are guilty of the same fault that the Pharises were Mark 7.9 by Christs owne reproofe saying You cast aside the commaundements of God to maintaine your owne Traditions Mat 15.9 teaching for doctrine
sée it the Sepulchâ—e opened for his sake and the body assumpteâ— into heauen he saith not one word of these conceits Nay he rather saith against them for he noteth namely That Iames was also present the brother of the Lord and Peter the chiefest and ancientest top of the Apostles And it is not likely he would haue noted two if they had beene all present here is no lesse than seuen lies in lesse than sixe liues Now let vs sée how Damascen your Portesse agréeth For DamasceÌ„ saith The Angels sung almost thrée dayes The Portesse thrée whole dayes Damascen saith The rest of the Apostles would shew to one of them who was absent the bodie The Portesse saith Thomas who was absent would worship the bodie Now what thée Damascen was let your owne doctors tell you who except against him for his tale of Gregory the Pope â—anus locoâ—m Theol 〈◊〉 11. â— Hessels â—nsure de â—stor sanct â— 3. â—erm de funct in 〈◊〉 and Traiane the Emperour Thus Damascen reporteth That Gregorie while he went ouer the market place of Traian did pray for Traians soule to God and behold a voice from heauen I haue heard thy prayer and I pardon Traian but see thou pray no more to me for the wicked These be good places to prooue prayer for the dead and yet it is against popish doctrine that prayer can deliuer any out of hell And if he had béen in Purgatory the Pope could haue dispatched that of himselfe without praying The next is Athan in Euang. de deipara who speaks not one word of your miraculous fault And yet is the same Athanasius reiected for a bastard in your owne edition In edit Petr. Nannij Louan praefat ad episcop Atiebat The last is fiue sermons of S. Barnards in all which likewise there is not one worde of that miracle So that vnlesse they were disposed to lie for the whetstone it is to be wondred how they dare thus abuse their Readers both with the names of counterfeit Fathers and false forgeries If I should collect all such like stuffe it would growe greater than this smal Tract But let the Christian Reader iudge of the rest as hee prooues these to be truly brought against them And if any desire further proofe of the Rhemists sincerity in alleaging Fathers let him obserue these places viz. The constitutions of Clement Luk. 4. Sect. 1. Ignatius Matt. 4. Sect. 2. 1. Peter 2. Sect. 6 Dionysius Areopag Act. 8. Sect. 6. Hypolitus Mat. 24. Sect. 5. Policarpus Act. 6. Sect. 1. Miltiadi Fabian Act. 8. Sect. 6. S. Andrew S. Martiall Hebr. 10. Sect. 11. The Masses of S. Iames Basil and Chrysostome 1. Cor. 11. Sect. 10. Clicton for Ciuil Ioh. 11. Sect. 1. and Paulinus Ioh. 9. Sect. 2. All these are counterfeit Fathers and vrged by the Papists vnder the names of true Fathers to countenance their corrupt doctrine And therefore no maruell if popish leaders instruct their followers to get vs into the plaine field of their Motiues out of our weake and false castell of onely Scripture as Bristowe the Licentiate tearmeth it Brist Motiu 48. And it is no maruell that they haue such store of the Fathers and that our new masters as they tearme vs cannot compare with these Fathers in the doctrines they deliuer when they bring vs onely the names of fathers I could giue instance likewise how the Fathers are often contrary one to another yea contrary to themselues Thus I hope it is plainly prooued by these foure iust exceptions that the Fathers iudgements are no infallible rule for a man to build his faith on though it be imbellisht with the churches exposition And yet wee reuerence and honor them as men that haue brought great light to the vnderstanding of the Scriptures But what doâ— you vnderstand by intituling the ancient Fathers with the name of the church Papist I meane Harâ—â—g Rai that the ioint consent of the Fathers in all doctrines deliuered by them is the doctrine of the Church Protestant 15 What doe you meane by the ioint consent of the Fathers Papist I mean by the ioint consent of the Fathers that which all or the most part of them doe deliuer for trueth wherin if there be any difference the greater number is to be followed for a fewe may bee deceiued more easily than many Protestant 16 This rule séemes to be very vncertaine for you knowe that king Ahab was deceiued by the consent of false prophets 2. Chron. 1â— 5 11. euen 400. against Micaiah yea when the Fathers in the great Councel of Nice were about to decrée that Bishops Priests DeacoÌ„s should not vse their wiues Paphnutius alone Sozom. li. 1. cap. 2â— rose vp in the midst of their Councell and fréely contradicted it and preuailed Besides in the third Exception before it is plainely shewed that the greater number of Fathers are by your selues reiected in the diuision of the coÌ„mandements and in the controuersie betwéene S. Austine and Hierom touching Peters reproofe par 1. wherein your selues grant Torrensis confes Aug. lib. 2. cap. 1. tim â— that Austin iudged more soundly What is therefore then to be done that a certaine and sure ground may bee found out Papist Then a better and more sure way is that which by the faithfull Pastors of the Church is decreed in a generall Councell which cannot erre Protestant 17 Indéed I must confesse it is a sure way to build our faith vpon those Councels which cannot erre But how shal we be assured that they cannot erre Papist We are assured by the Scriptures That the Church cannot erre as is euident by these places following Mat. 18.20 Our Sauiour Christ saith That when two or three are gathered together in his name that he will be in the midst And Ioh. 16 13. he promiseth to send vnto his Church the holy Ghost which shall leade them into all trueth 1. Tim. 3. And S. Paul calles it the Pillar and ground of trueth Vpon which places and many other which for breuity I omit wee conclude that the Church cannot erre which to speake as the Schoolemen doe we call the Church representatiue because the whole Church is there represented in a gerall Councell Protestant 18 Take héede what you doe Will you bring the Church contrary to the iudgement of many learned Papists mentioned in the preface of this booke to take her authority from the Scriptures and to be tried by them whether it may erre If you doe it will be the vtter ruine and destruction of your Religion for the Scriptures will conuince the Councel of Constance of error in taking away the cup from the Laitie contrary to S. Pauls expresse commandement saying 1. Cor. 11. Let a man examine himselfe and so let him eate of this bread and drinke of this cup. And contrary to the Institution and commaundement of Christ himselfe saying Drinke you all of this Mat. 26.27
euen by the learned Papists themselues and their Vniuersities yet doe they alleage them against vs in many of their bookes especially in the Rhemes Testament to giue countenance to Popish errors See pag. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. 28. 29. 30. 31. 32. 33. 10 That the consent of the Fathers cannot be shewed nay scarce any ancient Father that all controuersies are to bee determined by the Pope or that hee cannot erre or that hee must summon Councels or that they are of no authoritie vnlesse they bee confirmed by the Pope And yet are these doctrines held Catholike by the Papists and reputed the chiefe pillars of Popery See pag. 75. 11 That al those places of Scripture which are brought by the Papists either to prooue the Popes prerogatiue or the authority of the Church or that the Church cannot erre are by the Fathers writing purposely vpon the same places expounded according to the Protestants sense giuen and contrary to the sense which the Papists giue So farre are the Papists from proouing the generall consent of the Fathers in expounding these Scriptures which they commonly obiect against vs as Thou art Peter and vpon this Rocke will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it Or the promises of the holy Ghost to be sent to the Church to leade it into all trueth Or To thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdom of Heauen Or The Church is the pillar and ground of Trueth Or Tell the Church Or if hee heare not the Church let him be to thee as an heathen or as a Publicane Or whatsoeuer thou bindest in earth shall be bound in heauen Or any other place of Scripture to the sayd purposes to bee on their side as namely that those Texts should be meant of the Pope Generall Councell or the Church of Rome See pag. 66. 67. 68. 69. 70. 12 That Generall Councels haue erred haue beene contrary one to another haue been reiected by the Papists themselues and so are no sure Rule to build our faith on See pag. 48. 49. 50. 51. 52. 53. 54. 55. 13 That the Popes whom they would haue to be supreame Iudges in al Controuersies haue erred iudicially haue been heretikes as maintaining the heresie of the Monothelites subscribing to the Arrian heresie to the Nestorian heresie haue offered sacrifice to idoles haue been Necromancers and Coniurers See pag. 58. 59. 60. 61. 62. 14 That the Pope can be no competent Iudge and whereunto the Fathers referre vs. See pag. 93 c. LEt me request thee Courteous reader to take noâ—ice that the Texts of Scripture and testimonies of the Fathers cited by me in this Treatise should all haue been set downe in a different letter from the rest of the matter wherewith they are ranked accordingly as you see performed in the Preface and in the later halfe of the booke Now by meanes of my absence and want of direction giuen in this point it could not be discerned by the Printer howe farre the wordes of the Text and Testimonies so to bee distinguished might reach And therefore I cannot but free him from that blame as likewise 2. or 3. literal escapes only excepted from imputation of any the faults hereunder specified some of them being committed in my Copie and the rest through difficulty and darknes of the hand might easily be mistaken In the Text. Page 5. line 7. for allured reade allowed pag. 8. l. 17. Trations Traditions p. 11 l. 19. Priests proofe p. 29. l. â—6 addeth alleageth p. 29. l. 17. tehimony testimony p. 31. l. 2. for 25 15. p. 33. l. 7. fault fable p. 40. l. 9. châ—ice chiefe p. 72. l. 8. cannot which cannot p. 89. l. 1. sense the sense In the Margent Pag. 7. for De Bapt. c. 6. li. 1. reade De Bapt. cont Don. li. 3. pag. 7. prat reade pont pag. 8. 1. Thes 2. Thes pag. 12. 1. Pet. 2.18 1. Pet. 1.18 pag. 20. Aug. in Frut Aug. in Enar. pag. 14. de fulta de falsa pag. 35. li. 1. cap. 22. li 1. cap 23. pag. 36. Tim. Tit. pag. 52. Epist 16 7. Epist 167. pag. 59. against Pope Coelestine C. laudab de conuers Infidel is omitted
obiections of the errors of Popes and Councels refuted So can I whensoeuer you shall instance any such particular refutation which may ease you of some paines if it be so sufficiently performed referre you to some of the authors of our side where the same reasons haue been with no lesse sufficiencie handled and replied to assuring my selfe That neither any of you haue or can make any obiections against the doctrine we professe that hath not beene already obiected and likewise by vs answered And if any will shew me the contrary I will be beholding to him neither will I shut mine eyes against the trueth If this which I haue sayd may any whit preuaile with you to make shew of that great learning whereof in your Letter you haue boasted by your liberall vndertaking to proue so many particulars which hitherto as great Clerkes as your selfe haue failed in I shall be ready and willing to performe whatsoeuer I haue herein promised Otherwise I pray you returne the booke as you receiued it and you shall see that some such course shal be taken as shal make you blush to haue censured so rashly Your friend in Christianity and Charitie T. V. A briefe view of the weaknesse of the Grounds of Popish Religion as is euident by these seuerall Obiections and Answeres following Protestant 1WHereupon doe you ground your Religion Papist Vpon the word of God interpreted by the Church which cannot erre Protestant 2 What do you vnderstand by the Word of God Papist The Scriptures and Traditions Protestant 3 What doe you vnderstand by the Church Papist Stapl. princi doct l. 7 ca. 10. l. 11 ca. 5 Hervaeus de potest pap R. Cupers Petrus de Palude de potest papae Aâ— 4. The Church is sometimes taken for the auncient Fathers sometimes for generall Councels Sometimes we preferre the head of the Church the Pope before both Protestant 4 Well that we may procéede orderly in the handling of these particulars Doe you receiue all the bookes of the Old and Newe Testaments with equall authoritie Papist No but following the Tradition of the Church we distinguish betweene the Canonicall and the Apocrypha Protestant 5 Which are the Bookes which you call Apocrypha Papist Wee hold as Apocrypha The prayer of Manasses the third and fourth booke of Esdras Also others that are not vsuall in your English Bibles as an Appendix to the booke of Iob The 151. Psalme A preface to the Lamentations of Ieremie The third and fourth booke of Maccabees Protestant 6 Well we agrée with you in the reiection of these Bookes And we likewise consent with you That all the bookes of the New Testament as they stand are to be receiued of all for Canonicall Scripture What are then the Bookes that are in question betwéene vs Papist There be 7. Chapters of Hester certaine Stories annexed to Daniel as Of Bel and the DragoÌ„ Of Susanna Of the three childreÌ„ Also the Epistle of Baruch ioyned to Ieremie Then the books of Tobie Iudeth The Wisedom of Salomon Ecclesiasticus Two bookes of the Maccabees These we repute as Canonical both by the testimony of the Fathers and by the authoritie of the Church Protestant 7 Well Since I shall haue cause hereafter to speake of the Church I wil but briefly giue a touch to the reason of the refusall of these Bookes All Canonicall Scriptures in the old Testament were written by the Prophets We haue a sure word of the Prophets 2. Pet. 1.19 saith Saint Peter And Saint Paul calleth them The Scriptures of the Prophets Rom. 16 2â— But none of those Bookes afore named of Tobias of Iudeth and the rest were written by the Prophets Therefore none of those Bookes are Canonical All the Bookes of the olde Testament that were Canonicall were acknowledged of the Iewes and Hebrewes and written in Hebrew But the Iewes receiued none of these Books into the Canon of the Scriptures though to them were committed the Oracles of God as Saint Paul sayth neither were they in the Hebrew tongue Ergo they are not Canonicall But to the end you may sée how well the Church of which you boast agrées with the testimonies of the Fathers both ancient moderne Hier prol galeat Eâ—i ad Pauli in praefat â—i Reg in praefat in â—ro Salom. I wil giue you this taste briefly S. Hierom saith The Church readeth those bookes but receiueth them not amongst the Canonicall Scriptures The summe of all which is confirmed by these testimonies following whose particular spéeches to this purpose for breuitie sake I omit referring you to the places themselues as they are here following set down As Rufinus in his exposition vpon the Créede Cyril of Hierusalem in the 4. of his Catechisme Athanasius in Synop. Sacr. Scriptur Nazianzen in Carminis Epiphan li. de Mensur ponder Cyprian vpon the Créed Damasâ—en ca. 49. Hugo de Sanct. Victor de Sacram. in prol li. 1. ca. 7. Radulphus in Leuit. li. 14. c. 1. Lyra in prol in li. Apocry Hugo Cardina in prol Iosu All these contradict the opinion of the Papists in this controuersie yea Arias Montanus a chiefe Papist in his Hebrew Bible writeth in the forefront principal leafe of the booke There are added saith he in this Edition the bookes written in Gréek which the Catholike Church following the Canon of the Hebrews reckoneth amongst the Apocrypha The Councel of Laodicea Can. 59. Constantinop in Trul lo Can. 2. allured by a general Councel of Constantinople in Trullo did set downe the same Canon of the scriptures which both the old Church had our church doth hold commandeth Ne aliqui praeterea legantur in auctoritateÌ„ recipiaÌ„tur That none besides be read receiued into authority I omit many seueral contradictions in al or most of the books which we reiect they allow wherby they may be conuinced not to be written by the spirit of God which is alwaies one the same Sée the 4. Esdras 10.20 2. Maccab. 2.4 1. Mac. 1.6 8. touching Antiochus yea we wil confesse with Bellarmin Bellar. de ver Dei li. 1. cap. â— That the scriptures may be proued to be the Word of God by the constant perpetual truth of the Prophecies By the wonderful harmony consent of the holy writers of the Scriptures By the Spirit of God which is a principall witnes vnto vs By the scripture it selfe 2. Tim. 3. Lastly by the many great miracles wrought by the Prophets Apostles which do testifie for the truth thereof To the which touchstone if the Scriptures whith wee reiect were brought to the triall they would easily bee conuinced to bee but drosse and vnworthy to stand in the rankes of those that are Canonicall But how doe you knowe which are the Scriptures and in them which be Canonicall which be Apocrypha Papist I knowe by the testimonie of the Church which be the Scriptures and in them
for cleane hearts to know it is not lawfull for them to iudge Idem coÌ„fes li. 13. ca. 23. And againe Wee must not iudge of so high authoritie neither of the booke which is thine because we submit our vnderstanding to it Contr Crescon li. 2 c. 31 And lastly To the Canons of the scripture pertaine certaine books of the Prophets and Apostles the which in any case we may not dare to iudge And this is the reason There may be no iudge of Trueth where no daÌ„ger of Error is And S. Austin saith Idem epist 19. ad Hier. It is wickednes to make a doubt speaking of the scriptures whether there be any error in theÌ„ or not Therfore there may be no iudges of them but the whole Church must be subiect to theÌ„ with all humility beleeue them And yet will the Papists assume vnto themselues to be Iudges of the scriptures appoint which shall be Canonical which shal be Apocrypha A Iudge we grant must haue two things before he be competent namely skill to discerne that he misse not the truth power to command that his iudgement may take place Now if he want either of these he is no fit Iudge And that the Pope hath neither of these thus I proue For the first I haue proued he may erre therfore no man is bound to his iudgment further thaÌ„ it is agréeable to the truth And to adde one proofe more the Councel of Basil saith This priuiledge Conc. Basil epist Syno 8 not to erre hath not been granted by a common or perpetual law to any not to the Angels for many of them fell not to our first parents for they were deceiued not vnto the chiefe Bishops for many of them are read to haue fallen into error and Heresie And as it is absurd to referre the iudgement to one man so is it also to intitle the church of Rome to be The Catholike Church since their chiefe Schoolemen and lights of the Papists Petr. a Soto contr coÌ„fess Wittenburg ca. de CoÌ„cil AlfoÌ„s à Castro aduer Haer. li. 1. c. 8. CoÌ„f. Petric cap. 24. contr BreÌ„t li. 2. Disput adu Luther tom 6. deauthoritat potest vniuers eccles ca. 5. Ibid. ca. 1. Sotus Alfonsus Hosius and Verratus doe witnesse that any particular Church may erre But that the Church of Rome is a particular Church the same Verratus affirmeth nor can the rest deme it And as he may erre so hath he no power to command princes or others but onely to propose the commandements of God vnto them as euery Bishop must and may by vertue of his vocation Further authority by violence to compell or by corporall and external means to punish no Prelate nor Pope hath by the Lawe of GOD since that belongeth to the Sworde which the Prince and not the Pope beareth Rom. 13. 1. Pet. 2. as Saint Paul witnesseth and also Peter from whose right the Pope makes claime to this superioritie But me thinkes I still heare them obiect that all this while wee appoint not who shall bee Iudges or at least Discerners of Truth And to that we answer Let him that maketh the claime vndertake the proofe for we find no place nor person to whom the Sonne of God hath referred vs for the right vnderstanding of his will but onely to himselfe and the Scriptures And that you may knowe this is not our priuate opinion a slander which you often obiect learne what Optatus S. Aug. hath set downe in this case Christ saith Optat. hath dealt with vs as an earthly father is wont with his children Lib. 5. coni Permenia Donat. who fearing lest they should fall out after his decease doth set down his Will in writing vnder witnesses if there arise debate among the brethren they goe to the testament Hee whose worde must end our controuersie is Christ let his Will be sought in his TestameÌ„t Which reason of Optatus S. Aug. vrging against the Donatists as he doth often We are brethren saith he to them why doe we striue Aug. in Psal 21. exposi 2 Our Father died not intestate he made a Testament and so died Men doe striue about the goods of the dead till the Testament be brought foorth when that is brought they yeeld to haue it opened and read The Iudge doeth hearken the Councellors be silent the Crier bids peace all the people is attentiue that the words of the dead may be read and heard He lieth void of life and feeling in his graue and his words preuaile Christ doth sit in heauen is his Testament gainesayd Open it let vs reade we are brethren why doe we striue let our mindes bee pacified Our Father hath not left vs without a Testament He that made the Testament is liuing for euer He doth heare our words he doth know his owne word Let vs reade why doe wee striue Were not this a silly speach of S. Austin if Traditions were to be receiued with equall Reuerence to the Scriptures or that Councels or Popes had such absolute authoritie But it séemes S. Austin ascribed more to this Testament than to any Pope or Councel whatsoeuer And to conclude this point Optatus in the Question of the Catholikes with the Donatists whether one should be twice baptised Li. 5. contr â—ermen Doâ—at You saith he say it is lawfull Wee say it it not lawfull Betweene your it is lawfull and our it is not lawfull the peoples soules doe doubt and wauer Let none beleeue you nor vs we are all contentious men Iudges must be sought for if Christians they cannot be giuen of both sides for trueth is hindered by affections A Iudge without must be sought for If a Panime he cannot know the Christian mysteries If a Iew he is an enemie to ChristiaÌ„ baptisme No Iudgement therefore of this matter can be found in earth a Iudge in Heauen must bee sought for But why knocke wee at heauen when here we haue the Testament of Christ in the Gospel Belike Optatus and S. Austin were not so wise in those dayes as our Iesuites and Papists are now for they could easily haue put doubts and scruples touching the sense of the Scriptures and could skilfully haue inforced such obiections as these and in all doubts could easily haue assigned their Pope as an Absolute Iudge But it is euident by the iudgement of these two Reuerend Fathers that we can haue no fit Iudge on earth Ioh. 12. God must therefore iudge vs by his word To which all the Fathers doe submit themselues and their writings as is before prooued and alleaged Yea we are warranted by the Prophet Osea to iudge our Mother as it is in the vulgar Translation and to contend with her that she is not the spouse of Christ Hos 2. nor he her husband that she may take away her fornications and adulteries c. as it is more at large in the Text. Thus haue