the Church is of infallible and vndoubted truth and that the way not to be deceiued in an obscure question is to aske and follow the iudgement of the Church Wherefore worthily also do we all say Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam I beleeue the Catholicke Church and worthily also may I conclude that neither Scripture alone nor naturall wit and learning nor priuate spirit nor any other thing but onely the teaching of the true Church of Christ is that ordinarie meanes which Almightie God hath prouided whereby all men may learne that one infallible entire faith which I proued to be necessarie to saluation A. W. Saint Paul doth worthily call the Church the pillar and ground of truth but not as you would haue vs beleeue because it is the rule of faith The Greeke Scholiast taketh that speech of the Apostle to be vttered by way of comparison betwixt the Church of Christ and the Iewish Temple Not as the Iewish Temple saith Oecumenius but the pillar and ground of truth for the Temple was the ground of the shadowes of the truth Out of which we may gather that as the Iewish synagogue was the pillar and ground of those shadowes of the truth so is the Church of Christ the pillar and ground of the truth it selfe But that synagogue was not the rule of faith in that point because whatsoeuer it taught was to be held for infallible truth but for that to it were committed the oracles of God and the knowledge and vse of those ceremonies so hath the Church of Christ the truth of doctrine in the scripture and the exercises of Gods worship and religion Therfore is it called the pillar and ground of it because it constantly maintaineth that truth preaching and professing it in despight of all the practises and power of Satan and tyrants of the world As the thighs saith an ancient writer sustaine and beare vp the weight of the whole bodie so also the Apostles like pilars valiantly carry the vniuersall Church of Christians ouer the whole world being for the value of their inuincible courage and stedfastnesse of their holy purpose called marble pillars And a litle after They preached the Gospell with such wisedome and constancie that as if they had bene of marble or adamant they were afraid of no violence nor aduersitie but always continuing firme and inuincible against all the forces of men and diuels shining as it were in the darke by that light of their wisedome by preaching admonishing teaching and glistering with miracles at the last they most happily became conquerors To this effect speake your Glosses The ground of the truth of the Gospell which the Church constantly maintained euen in the greatest persecutions Well vpholding the truth in it self saith another Glosse That it may not fall to the ground though it be afflicted saith Lombard But let vs bring your reason into due frame The pillar and ground of truth is the rule of faith The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church is the rule of faith Your proposition or maior is false vnlesse you restraine it as I haue often said to the truth and then it is so far the rule of faith as it is the pillar and ground of truth Whatsoeuer it holdeth truly according to the scripture is the rule of faith for those points not because of the Churches authoritie but for the truth of the doctrine Yet may it easily come to passe that a Church maintaining the generall truth of the Gospell and all particulars necessary to soluation may faile in many other points of great importance and for all that continue both a true Church and the pillar and ground of truth though not the rule of faith Your minor also as you vnderstand it is vntrue First because the Apostle speaketh not of any such companie as you imagine Pope Bishop Councell but either of the Church of Ephesus in which Timothie to whom he writeth then abode or indefinitely of any and euery Church whatsoeuer where the true Religion of our Sauiour is or shall be professed according to the Gospell If Timothie were as you will not denie Bishop of Ephesus then it is apparent that the Apostle calleth the Church of Ephesus wherein Timothy liued taught and gouerned the pillar and ground of truth yet was it not the rule of faith for then had the rule of faith perished long since with that Church of Ephesus If he speake to him as to an Euangelist who was to follow him from place to place and to establish the Churches which the Apostle had planted then must euery one of those Churches wherein Timothy was to behaue himselfe as he had done in Ephesus be vnderstood to be the pillar and ground of truth and yet neither any nor all of them were the rule of faith which else must haue bene lost with them What remaines then Shall we expound it of all beleeuers in generall I grant it reacheth to all the faithfull but as to them considered in their seuerall Churches because among them so disposed of was Timothy to performe that dutie which the Apostle there enioyneth him But let vs so conceiue of the Church What shall it auaile you or endamage vs All beleeuers are not the companie you pleade for but onely the Pope and your Bishops whom you would haue taken for the rule of faith Secondly I denie your minor in respect of the sense you giue of those words the pillar and ground of truth For you so vnderstand them as if the truth of God depended vpon the verdict of the Church so that nothing may be held for truth but what the Church deliuereth for such and whatsoeuer she so propoundeth must so be receiued vpon paine of certaine damnation How contrary are you in this interpretation and doctrine to the auncient fathers The Apostles saith Irenaeus left vs the Scriptures to be the pillar and ground of our faith Nay say you they left vs the Church to be the pillar and ground of the Scriptures The Gospell and spirit of life saith the same father in the same booke is the pillar and ground of the Church Nay by your leaue reply you the Church is the pillar and ground of the Gospell But Chrysostome handling this place of the Apostle is not afraid to affirme that the truth is the pillar and ground of the Church not as if he would denie that which the Apostle saith for the Church indeed is the vpholder of the truth but to shew that although the Church maintaine and auow the truth yet it is built and founded vpon the truth which as Ierome saith vpholds the building Therfore to make short whē the Apostle saith that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth his meaning is that amongst Christians and among no other sort of men the truth is to be found and amongst and by them it is constantly and worthily
well make an end of answering to this treatise because I haue ouerthrowne the maine strength of your discourse and discouered to all men that will not be wilfully blind the weaknesse of your reason but for the better satisfaction of the vnlearned I will follow you from Chapter to Chapter that the truth may the more easily be discerned A. D. CHAP. XI That the Church whose doctrine must be to vs the rule of faith must alwayes continue without interruption from Christ his time till the worlds end A. W. That there alwayes hath bene since the beginning of the world excepting perhaps the time betwixt the fall of our first parents and their faith in the Messiah that there is and alwaies shal be a Church viz. certaine men that are predestinate to life and actually beleeue in Iesus Christ it neuer came into any of our minds to be doubted of that there should be such a companie as you conceipt all the Papists in the world cannot proue A. D. §. 1. Considering what hath bene proued in the former Chapter about the infallible authoritie of the doctrine of the true Church I hope no Christian will deny but that so long as this Church doth continue we haue of it a sure pillar and a firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our beleef For either a man must deny that euer our Sauiour did make any such promise gaue such charge and commission left any such warrant set forth such a commaundement or thundred out any such threats as before is rehearsed which were to denie the Scriptures which scriptures are generally receiued by all Christians no otherwise then as they are the vndoubted word of God or else he must wrest the interpretation thereof both from that which the words of themselues naturally yeeld and also from the common sense and vnderstanding either of all or the most learned and almost of the vnlearned also of the whole Christian world or else he shall be forced to confesse that which not I but Saint Paul hath said Ecclesia est columna firmamentum veritatis the Church is the pillar and ground of truth Onely it may perchance seeme to some of those that doe at this day oppose themselues against the authority of the Church that this was true for Saint Pauls time and perhaps for some three foure fiue or six hundred yeares after but not to be presumed vpon in latter times and namely when Luther began his reformation as they tearme it or now adaies A. W. Considering how weake your proofes haue bene as in the former Chapters so namely in the last about the infallible authoritie of the doctrine of the true Church I hope there is no reasonable man not only no Christian that will build his faith and saluation vpon so tottering a pillar and so slipperie a foundation But because you seeme to dote so much vpon your last Chapter I wil once againe be content to examine the substance of it as it is here repeated by you with some litle alteration Either we must denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted threatned or we must falsely interprete the scriptures or else we must grant that the authoritie of the Church is a sure pillar and firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our faith But we neither may denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted commaunded threatned neither may we falsely interpret the Scriptures Therefore we must grant that the authoritie of the Church is a sure pillar and firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our beleefe First in general for your whole syllogisme if the cōclusion you intend were no other thē that you pretēd propoūd that the Church is the pillar groūd of truth as S. Paul saith there would be no question in this matter betwixt vs. For we haue learned to acknowledge the truth of all and euerie part of the scripture But the beginning of this Chapter sheweth that you meane by the Churches being the pillar and ground of truth that we may safely build our beleefe vpon the Churches authority which as I prooued in my answer to that Chapter is no part of the Apostles meaning In this sense must we take your conclusion Secondly in particular I denie your Maior because your disiunction is naught presuming a necessitie where there is none For neither we need to denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted commanded threatned neither is there any cause why we should falsely interprete the Scriptures and yet we haue no reason to grant that our faith may safely be built vpon the authoritie of the Church No such thing as I haue shewed can follow vpon the words of scripture alledged by you Therefore we need not denie the promises charge warrant commandement or threatning of our Sauiour or else grant the Church such an vnlimited authority Neither will the true sense of those Scriptures either enforce or beare any such illation or conclusion touching the infallible authoritie of the Church And whereas you thinke to face out the matter with naming the common sense and vnderstanding either of all or the most learned and almost of the vnlearned also of the whole Christian world my answer propounding the iudgement of many excellently learned and ancient writers of those places prooueth that to be but a vaine popish brag without all likelihood of truth especially since you that spare not to heape vp testimonies of Fathers when they are needlesse and to quote their bookes and chapters sometimes for a bare phrase alledge not so much as the name of any one author for the proofe of your interpretation of twelue seuerall places of scripture Your proffered seruice in helping vs with this distinction hath more shew of kindnesse then good meaning For it is not brought in to confirme our answer but to giue your selfe occasion of vttering that which you are taught to vrge for proofe of this question But we neither need your aide and haue good cause to suspect your fauours In a word your distinction is such as none of vs euer brought or would bring to answer those places of scripture We confesse that whatsoeuer was promised to the Church in those texts was promised for continuance to the end of the world but we say that the first promise was not concerning the Churches not erring the three last are particular to the Apostles at least for such a measure of teaching But what should I repeat that which was deliuered in the verie last Chapter The thing you harpe vpon though vntunably is that your Romish church or rather the Church of the East West were indeed the pillar and ground of truth for the space of some 600. yeares after Christ but afterwards fell away from that soundnesse of doctrine which before it had cleaued vnto Such a matter there is acknowledged by our Diuines yet no man saith either that the Church erred not in any point during that
may also thus vnderstand it that Christ appeared to be the word and the truth and wisedome frō the beginning of the creatiō of the world to the last writing of the Apostles that is from Genesis to the Apostles books after which there are none of like authoritie or beleef Or thus that the Law and the Prophets continued till Iohn in whom the brightnesse of truth was The East was the Law the West Iohn the end of the Law Now onely the Church neither takes away the word and sense of this brightnesse nor addes any thing else as propheticall The place you bring lieth thus Euery doctrine professing it selfe to be truth when it is not truth either among the Gentiles or among the Barbarians is in some sort Antichrist going about to seduce as truth and to seuer vs from him that said I am the truth Therefore we must not giue eare to them which say Behold here is Christ but do not shew him in the Church which is full of brightnesse from the East to the West which is full of the true light which is the pillar and ground of truth in which whole Church the whole comming of the Sonne of man is Now the comming of the Sonne of man is before expounded by him to be the word of truth Doubtlesse if you had not taken this proofe vpon Bellarmines or some other mans credit you would neuer haue brought it to proue the visibilitie of the Church to all men at all times What saith Cyprian in the place alledged but that the Church is dispersed ouer the whole world Doth this proue that it is at all times visible to all men Or hath Cyprian any such purpose in that place Is not his whole drift to shew that there is but one Church because the truth they professe is but one The title of his booke is Of the vnitie of the Church The place you bring concludes that howsoeuer the beames are scattered or spread here and there yet the light is but one The Church that is true beleeuers were in this land in the dayes of persecutiō and is now in Spaine Italy and perhaps in Rome it selfe This proues not a perpetuall visibilitie What need we any other answer to this testimonie of Chrysostome then that which your owne exposition affoords vs Chrysostoms meaning is that the Church cannot be quite without light say you What thē Must it needs be visible then to al men The Moone is neuer wholy darkened no not in the greatest eclipse nor in the change but is alwayes in the one halfe light and yet he were mad that would conclude hereupon that therefore it may be seene at all times of all men Indeed Chrysostome speaketh of the continuance of the Church not of the visiblenesse thereof That may appeare by his saying that the Church hath her roote in heauen rather then in the earth This argues stabilitie not visibilitie And what Church hath rooting in heauen but onely the Church of the elect The Church saith Chrysostome in the same place is more honorable then heauen because heauen is made for it not it for heauen Is heauen made for any Church but that of the elect Besides it was not the visibility but the being of the Church against which those tyrants whom Chrysostome there mentioneth so mightily laboured which yet continued in despight of them all These and such like places of Austin shew the flourishing estate of the Churches in those times and conuince the Donatists against whom Augustine writ of wofull blindnesse who would see no church but their owne heretical assembly in a part of Africa But they neither were intended not can with any reason be applied to proue that the church is alwayes visible to all men The former of the two places as I shewed before is interpreted by the Fathers of the Apostles That the Apostles saith Ierome should not hide themselues for feare but freely shew themselues he teacheth them to preach boldly when he saith A citie set vpon an hill cannot be hid But let vs take it to be meant of the Church It must needs be a monstrous hill that can shew a citie set vpon it to the whole world A citie standing on a hill is the easier and the farther to be seene but there is no hill high enough to be seene ouer the whole world I would farther know whether euery particular Church be not a citie vpon an hill or no. And yet is no such Church to be seene of all men Concerning the latter place Austin worthily cals them blind that could not or rather as he truly saith would not see that great mountaine vpon which the Church then stood but would shut their eyes against the light that shined vpon them Yet who is so ignorant that he knowes not or so shamelesse that he will not cōfesse that there were many aliue at that very time which had no knowledge that there was any Church in the world But there neither were nor could be any such among the Donatists or other like heretickes who forsooke the Church to follow their owne fantasies The candle is the Minister or the word shining by his ministery the candlesticke is the particular Church where that ministery is if any liuing in or neare the place where such a candle burneth bright will not see the light of it he may well be called wilfully blind So may not they which are so far that the beames of the light cannot shine vnto them Now the summe of that which hath bene answered concerning the perpetuall continuance and visiblenesse of the church is this that the church to which that continuance is promised is the number of the elect and not any one outward companie of men succeeding one another in a famous and visible profession of Christian Religion Yea farther though we do not vndertake to affirme that there hath not bin at all times some one companie or other of true Christians knowne to them among whom they liued to be professors of the Gospell yet we doubt not to say that there can be no sufficient proofe brought out of the Scriptures that there must of necessitie be alwayes such a company as if our Sauior Christs promises to his church were not performed vnlesse the world might at all times perceiue where such a companie were to be found A. D. CHAP. XIII How we should discerne and know which is the true visible Church of Christ A. W. It may perhaps seeme needlesse that I should proceed any further in the confutation of this treatise because still the maine point that there is such a Church is presupposed and not proued But howsoeuer it be true that there is indeed no one visible church of Christ which may challenge or beare the name of the whole church yet it will be worth the doing to finde out the markes or signes by which we may discerne which congregation is a true church of Christ and which is not
Ambrose to enquire after the faith of the Church and that especially in which Church if Christ be a dweller it is doubtlesse to be made choise of But if the people be vnfaithful if an heretical teacher deforme the dwelling the communion of heretickes is to be auoided the congregation must be shunned And a little after If there be any Church that refuseth the faith and holds not the foundation of the Apostles preaching it is to be left lest it taint vs with some spot of vnbeliefe or vnfaithfulnesse Neither will it serue the turne that you referre vs to that which is generally holden by the Church for both the generall faith depends vpon the particular beliefe of the Church or Pope of Rome and is not to be taken for truth because it is generally receiued but because it agrees with the Romane faith as we learned before of your Monkes of Bourdeaux who make the Catholique Church to haue communion with the Church of Rome as the fountaine of truth and of greater authoritie in their iudgement then the Catholicke Church But let vs admit that you desire of beleeuing whatsoeuer is generally holden by the Church I am half afraid this conceit be it neuer so strong wil not procure the quietnes you promise vs. The causes of my feare are these two First I may doubt of such a point as is not yet determined by the Church for example I make question of the Popes authority aboue Councels or theirs aboue him How shall I most certainly be instructed in the truth of this question Enquire say you and find what is generally holden by the Church What if the Doctors of your Church cannot agree about this point That they cannot it appeares by your owne doubting where you make it questionable whether the Pope alone or the Pope with a general Councell be free from error And Bellarmine is faine to take a great deale of paines in answering the arguments of diuers Papists some of them equall to himselfe for learning iudgement and authoritie who make the Pope subiect to generall Councels But of this in due place Say it were generally agreed on Could I thereby be most certainly instructed what is truth in this point May not all saue the Pope be deceiued and perhaps he to without the aduice and assent of a general Councell at least if he haue not in his consistory vpon good deliberation resolued of the matter What shall it auaile me then to know that generally it is thought the Pope is aboue any Councell Supposing this point were generally held to be true though indeed as I said before it is denyed both by priuate men by 2. councels that of Basil the other of Constance which deposed two Popes Iohn the three and twentieth and Benedict the thirteenth And Bellarmine saith that to this day it remaines in question euen among the Catholikes Well put case all men thought as Bellarmine and all such Popish parasites would haue it what were I the nearer as long as there can be no certainty of truth in your opinion where nothing is iudicially determined by a Pope Coūcell The second resō of my doubt is that I know not how to find out either easily as you say euery man may or certainly though with some paines what is generally holdē by the Church for truth in al particular points wherof I doubt Shall I looke into the confessions of seuerall Churches Where are they to be found Shall I trauail into euery particular country to learne what they hold of this or that poynt What assurance can I get hereby but from some speciall men And it is a venture but they will not all agree in euery point What remaines Forsooth that which is all in all I must beleeue Watsō or Clarke or Blackwel the archpriest or if al these will not content me Gerrard Tesmond Hall or without all doubting Garnet the superior of the Iesuites who questionlesse is as void of error as the Pope himselfe Haue I not trow you a sound foundation to build my faith vpon when I haue the word of these equiuocating traitours Priests and Iesuits And yet this is the most I can haue in this case if I be a man vnlearned especially vnable to reade Is it possible any man should be so senslesse as to hazzard his euerlasting saluation vpon such an vncertainty to beleeue he knowes not what because a Priest or a Iesuit tels him that the Church generally doth so beleeue But what if it fall out as it may do that the Priests perswade him the Church holds one thing and the Iesuites affirme it maintaines the contrary how shall a poore soule either settle his iudgement or quiet his conscience Quid sequar aut quem Were it not a directer and certainer course to hold nothing for truth in religion but that which is proued to vs by plaine testimonies of Scripture or certaine consequence of reason drawne from principles euidently exprest or apparētly contained in the knowne word of God The difficulties of translation and interpretation shal be handled in their places which also as I shewed ere while accompany al your writings of priuate men Popes or Councels Now then if their be many particular points of cōtrouersies whereof I may doubt which are not resolued of by any iudgement of the Church nor agreed vpon by the learned of your owne side if I cannot certainly know what is generally held for truth by the Church but as I giue credit to the report of a Priest or Iesuit whom I know to be partiall in the matter because he is one of the Popes vassals subiect to erre because he is a priuate man likely enough to lye because he maintaines equiuocation what madnesse were it for me to forbeare searching and studying of the Scriptures where I am sure the truth of God is to be found and to lose my time and labour in seeking what the Church generally holds and that of those men who perhaps vnderstand not what is held but as they haue bene informed by others who may themselues haue mistaken the true meaning of the Church in that it holds A. D. §. 10. Of which points also If they be desirous they may haue sufficient authority and reason yeelded by the learned of the same Church though they should not so desire reason to be yeelded that without reason be giuen they would not beleeue at all or as grounding their faith vpon the reason giuen sith Christian beliefe ought onely to be grounded vpon the authoritie of God speaking by the mouth of the Church who ought to be beleeued in all matters without giuing any reason A. W. There is no sufficient authoritie for a man to ground his faith vpon but the truth of God reuealed Whatsoeuer is taught without that authoritie is as easily contēned as alleadged Therfore Iustine wils him that would be setled in
of this matter we must speake more at large hereafter A. D. CHAP. III. That this one faith necessarie to saluation is infallible A. W. If you had bene desirous that euery man should vnderstand you instead of infallible you would rather haue said certaine or without doubting especially since your selfe diuers times vsed the word in the passiue signification for that which may not be doubted of as being most certainly true In this sense you say afterward in this Chapter that the word of Christ is absolutely infallible and againe in the end of the Chapter that we must account the word of faith absolutely infallible A. D. §. 1. This one faith without which we cannot be saued must be infallible and most certaine This is cleare because faith is that credit or inward assents of minde which we giue to that which God who is the prime or first veritie which neither can deceiue nor be deceiued hath reuealed vnto vs by meanes of the preaching or teaching of the true Church as we may gather out of S. Paul when he saith Quomodo credent ei quem non audierunt quomodo audient sine praedicante quomodo praedicabunt nisi mittantur c. ergo fides ex auditu auditus autem per verbum Christi The sense of which words is that sith we cannot beleeue vnlesse we heare nor beare vnlesse some lawfully sent do preach vnto vs faith is bred in vs by hearing and yeelding assent or credit to the word of Christ made knowne vnto vs by the preaching of the true Church which onely is lawfully sent of God wherefore like as the word of Christ being God is absolutely infallible so also the credit giuen to this word which is our faith must needs be also most certaine and infallible A. W. The title and beginning of the Chapter speake of faith as it is a grace or qualitie but the conclusion of the Chapter is concerning the infallibilitie or certaintie of the word of faith as you call it that is the thing to be beleeued so do you run from one thing to another But I may say of this Chapter as I haue done in part of the former that we acknowledge the truth of both these points and thinke your labour in prouing them altogether vnnecessary only in the former there may be some doubt For though it be out of question that we are to endeuor for the perfection as of all other graces of God so of that faith wherby we assent to the truth of that which God hath reuealed yet it comes to passe sometimes by our infirmitie that our faith is accompanied with doubting And this as we heard before Sotus grants to be true of a Catholicke faith and prooues it by the prayer of the Apostles Lord increase our faith to which I may adde the like request of him that crying with teares said Lord I beleeue helpe my vnbeleefe But if any man desire to see a liuely patterne of this doubting let him looke vpon Dauid as he describes himselfe in the Psalme Certainly I haue cleansed my heart in vaine and washed my hands in innocency c. Then thought I to know this but it was too painfull for me And afterward so foolish was I and ignorant I was a beast before thee And yet the point he speaks of is a rulde case in Diuinitie propounded by him in the beginning of the Psalme namely that the prouidence of God watcheth ouer the righteous for their good and that he will be auenged of the wicked That faith which some Diuines call historicall is indeed such an assent goeth alwaies before iustifying faith at the least for the beleeuing of so much as is necessarie to iustification Which I note by the way that no man may be deceiued with an opinion that iustifying faith is an assent to the truth of Gods word whereas it is quite of another nature and hath place in the will rather then in the vnderstanding If you had said that God hath reuealed his truth to vs by the preaching of them that were in the true Church you had spokē more plainely and truely But how the true Church or any Church at all should be said to preach I professe I vnderstand not Neither can any such thing be gathered out of Saint Paule who speakes not a word of the Church true or false And to say the truth what a strange kind of speech is it to say The Church is sent to preach when as onely the Ministers preach and not the Church vnlesse perhaps Iohn Baptist only for a time was the Church whē he preached alone before our Sauiour was baptised But this same Church is a goodly faire word and couers a great many foule errours with the very name of it The Apostles who were they that God employed at the first beginning of the Gospell both in preaching and writing were vndoubtedly of the true Church both in respect of their election to euerlasting life and of the truth of the doctrine they held It is also true that God ordinarily begetteth faith in the hearts of men by the ministers of the true Church But it is not true that such an assent as you speake of cannot be wrought in a man by the ministery of Schismaticks or Hereticks though they be perhaps in neither respect any members of the true Church Did not Arius Macedonius Eutyches Nestorius and many other wretched hereticks assent in generall to the truth of God in Scriptures because they held it to be the very true word of God And might not men by their preaching be brought to the same faith For our parts we make no doubt but that in the middest of ignorance and superstition many came to this faith by the preaching of your Antichristian Priests and so do at this day yea we adde further that we doubt not many haue wee are sure they might and may attaine to the same faith what if I say to iustifying faith too without any preaching by the reading of the Scriptures For since it is partly the matter that must argue the Scripture to be the word of God partly the maiesty which any man may discerne in the manner of writing vnlesse it can be poooued out of the Scripture that the holy Ghost will not worke by these vpō the heart of him that readeth but only of him that heareth a man expound this word vnto him I see no sufficient reason why faith may not be had by reading where Gods ordinance of preaching is onely wanting and not wilfully neglected But you will say the Apostle tyeth faith to hearing First this is little aduantage for you Papists amongst whom til shame emulation draue you to it within these last fiftie or threescore yeares no man could ordinarily heare the word of God in any tongue that he vnderstood and so all your hearing was to no purpose Secondly if hearing be sufficient where there is nothing but reading without any
in a matter of such weight The conclusion is that howsoeuer it is indeed a sinne and so in it selfe damnable to misbeleeue or not beleeue all and euery thing which God hath reuealed yet a man may be in the state of grace and saluation though he misbeleeue or through ignorance obstinately not beleeue something so reuealed In a word Not right beleeuing is neuer able to depriue a man of saluation but when that we beleeue amisse is a maine point of saluation obstinately not beleeuing onely then shuts vp heauen against vs when either the points we will not beleeue are fundamentall or our refusing to beleeue is against our owne iudgement and conscience If you had no further reach in this Chapter we were of the same mind with you but in propounding the reason of your assertion you bewray a further matter then at the first a man would imagine A. D. §. 2. The reason of this is because euery point of doctrine yea euery word that almightie God hath reuealed and by his Church propounded vnto vs to be beleeued must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued as we may gather out of Saint Marke where when our Sauiour had giuen charge to his Disciples to preach the Gospell to euery creature the which charge he also gaue in Saint Mathew saying Docete omnes gentes c. docentes eos seruare omnia quaecunque mandaui vobis Teach all nations c. teaching them to obserue all things whatsoeuer I haue commaunded you he pronounceth indefinitely Qui non crediderit condemnabitur He that shall not beleeue shall be condemned not excepting or distinguishing any one point of doctrine as needlesse to be beleeued or which a man might at his pleasure misbeleeue or doubt of without danger A. W. Your first reason lieth thus If euery point and word reuealed by God and propounded by his Church to be beleeued must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued then faith must be entire But euery word so reuealed and propounded must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued Therefore faith must be entire The conclusion of this Syllogisme is acknowledged by vs for a certaine truth Faith must be entire but the premisses seeme liable to iust exception For first the antecedent and the consequent of the proposition are all one and so the proofe and that which is proued differ not What is it to say euery word reuealed by God must be beleeued but to affirme that faith must be entire Indeed if the questiō were of faith as it is a quality then the consequent might be inferred vpon the antecedent but since we speake of the things to be beleeued both are one If euery such word must be beleeued then we must beleeue euery such word It is the same faith by which all and by which some is beleeued but as the obiect or things beleeued make a difference which reacheth not to the faith it selfe within the soule Secondly the Assumption though it be true yet doth it containe something that had need to be warily considered First you so couple the reuealing by God and the propounding of a thing to be beleeued by the church as if the latter were no lesse necessary then the former to make a matter of faith wheras al things that God hath reuealed ought to be beleeued whether the Church propoūd them for such or no. For the reason why they are to be beleeued is that they proceed from God who must needs be credited in whatsoeuer he shal say in respect both of his truth in speaking and his authoritie in commaunding obedience But you Papists make the authoritie of the Church the very foundation of our beleefe The Scripture you say is in it selfe the word of God and so worthy of all credit but to vs it is not so but by the authoritie of the Church vpon the credit whereof we take it for the word of God Yea farther you limit faith in particular points by the determination of the Church so that no man shall be bound to beleeue as a point of faith any doctrine neuer so certainly proued out of Scripture vnlesse the Church haue resolued of it that it is true and whatsoeuer is by the Church concluded for true must be acknowledged for such by faith though it be beside or against the Scripture which as Cardinall Cusan is not ashamed nor afraid to say is fitted for the time and diuersly vnderstood So that it may at one time be expounded one way according to the generall current order of the Church and the same order being changed the Scripture also is changed And why should it not if as another Papist saith the holy Scripture take strength and authoritie from the doctrine of the Church and Bishop of Rome The Apostles saith Pighius haue written certaine things not that their writings should be aboue our faith but that they should be vnder it But what should I stand to recite your blasphemies in this kind which are many and monstrous That which is not to day a point of faith shall be one to morrow if it please the Pope to propound it to be beleeued It is farther to be considered in your Assumption that although whatsoeuer God reuealeth is to be beleeued vpō paine of damnation yet a man may be saued without beleeuing euery thing so reuealed alwayes prouided that he do not against his conscience obstinately refuse to acknowledge any truth If our Sauiour haue said that he which beleeueth not all that his Apostles teach shall be condemned then euery word so reuealed and propounded must be beleeued vnder paine of damnation But our Sauiour hath said so Therefore euery word so propounded must be beleeued vnder paine of damnation This is a proofe of your Assumption wherein for the consequence of your proposition I would haue all men vnderstand that although you craftily imply therein a comparison of equalitie betwixt the charge of beleeuing the Apostles and all other Ministers allowed by you whom you call by the name of the Church to deceiue simple people with so glorious a title yet the truth of that proposition depends not thereupon but onely vpon the necessitie of beleeuing that which God hath reuealed It is a certaine truth that God is to be beleeued in all things he hath reuealed by whom soeuer he propound it in this respect the consequence of your proposition is true That if it were damnable not to beleeue the Apostles deliuering that which God had reuealed it is also damnable not to giue credit to Ministers now when they propound that to be beleeued which God hath reuealed because the reason of beleeuing is that God hath reuealed the things that are deliuered But yet here are two differences to be obserued first that it is lesse sinne to doubt of that which any man besides the Apostles deliuers though it be the word of God then to make question of the same matter vttered by the
and writing Further it is false that a priuate spirit agreeing with the Catholicke Church in doctrine can be in that point of agreement the rule of faith For although the doctrine he teacheth be true yet is it not the rule of faith much lesse is he himselfe because of his authoritie but either as you say by reason of the authoritie of the Church or indeed as we truly affirme for that it is agreeable to the word of God in the Scripture called canonical because it is the rule of faith and manners Now for answer to your Syllogisme I say your Assumption is not simply true but onely so farre forth as the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church I speake as you do agreeth with the truth in the Scripture reuealed Neither doth Saint Paul speake of whatsoeuer doctrine receiued by your imagined Catholicke Church of Rome but of that which he himselfe or some other of the Apostles had taught the Galatians to whom he writeth that Epistle This it should seeme you saw well enough and therefore in your crastie discretion for bare to translate the Apostles words which for the most part you set downe alwayes as well in English as in Latine The reason lieth thus He that teacheth contrary to the doctrine which the Galatians had receiued of the Apostles is to be accursed for his preaching so But a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church teacheth contrary to the doctrine which the Galatians had receiued by the Apostles Therefore a priuate spirit teaching contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church is to be accursed for his preaching so Who seeth not that the truth of this Assumption dependeth vpon this point that the Catholicke Church hath receiued no other doctrine then that which the Apostles taught the Galatians But this hath as much need of sound proofe as that for the proofe whereof it is brought and therefore to dispute thus against any man that would hold a priuate spirit to be the rule of faith were to giue him occasion to laugh at you for begging the question in stead of prouing it But to make all men see how small force there is in this your reason for the keeping of a priuate spirit from being the rule of faith I will frame two other syllogismes against a publick spirit or Councel and against the Pope 1. He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But a publicke spirit or Councell that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholick Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore a publicke spirit or Councell that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith 2. He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But the Pope that teacheth contrarie to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore the Pope that teacheth contrarie to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith Haue you not spun a faire threed thinke you to choake the Popes and the Councels authoritie withall Call your wits about you and deuise some cleanly shift for the matter or I can tel you all wil be naught For your Religion is no more able to hold vp head if the Popes authoritie be cast downe then a man that hath neuer a leg is able to stand vpright It will go the harder with you in this matter because if I grant that the Pope cannot erre you are neuer a whit the nearer for the answering of my syllogisme as you may perceiue if you will but assay to apply that point for answer to either part thereof There is no other way but to giue ouer this your first reason against a priuate spirit and to make amends for it in the second if you can A. D. §. 3. Secondly the rule of faith must be infallible plainly knowne to all sorts of men and vniuersall that is to say such as may sufficiently instruct all men in all points of faith without danger of errour as hath bene proued before But this priuate spirit is not such For first that man himselfe cannot be vnfallibly sure that he in particular is taught by the holy spirit For neither is there any promise in Scripture to assure him infallibly that he in particular is thus taught neither is there any other sufficient reason to perswade the same For suppose he haue such extraordinarie motions feelings or illustrations which he thinketh cannot come of himselfe but from some spirit yet he cannot in reason straightwayes conclude that he is thus moued and taught by the spirit of God For sure it is that euery spirit is not the Spirit of God As there is the spirit of truth so there is a spirit of errour As there is an Angell of light so there is a Prince of darknesse Yea sometimes Ipse Sathanas transfigurat se in Angelum lucis Sathan himselfe doth transfigure himselfe into an Angell of light Wherefore he had need very carefully to put in practise the aduise of Saint Iohn who saith Nolite credere omni spiritui sed probate spiritus si ex Deo sint Doe not beleeue euerie spirit but prooue and trie them whether they be of God or no. Neither doth it seeme sufficient that a priuate man trie them onely by his owne iudgement or by those motions feelings or illuminations which in his priuate conceit are conformable to Scripture because all this triall is verie vncertaine and subiect to errour by reason that our owne iudgement especially in our own matters is verie easily deceiued and that Sathan can so cunningly couer himselfe vnder the shape of a good Angell and so colour his wicked designements with pretense of good and so gild his darke and grosse errours with the glistering light of the words and seeming sense of scripture that hardly or not at all he shall be perceiued VVherefore the safest way were to trie these spirits by the touchstone of the true Pastours of the Catholicke Church who may say with S. Paul Nō ignoramus cogitationes Satanae we are not ignorant of the cogitations of Sathan and who may also say with S. Iohn Nos ex Deo sumus qui nouit Deum audit nos qui non est ex Deo non audit nos In hoc cognoscimus spiritum veritatis spiritum erroris VVe are of God he that knoweth God heareth vs he that is not of God doth not heare vs. In this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of errour Now if any will not admit this manner of trying discerning the spirit of truth from the spirit of errour but will trust their owne iudgement alone in this matter feare they may iustly nay rather they may be sure as Cassian saith that they shall worship in their thoughts the Angell of darknesse for the Angel of light to
with them to the very end of their liues for their instruction and comfort neither of which are needfull any longer then while we are in this world They that apply these promises to all the elect also for to any visible companie of men I thinke besides you Papists no man doth neither make for your opinion because they tie them not to any companie but giue euery true Christian his like part in the priuiledge of this spirit and as we heard ere while out of your ordinary Glosse leaue some truth to be reuealed in the life to come I do not thinke saith Austin that in this life the promise of being taught all truth can be fulfilled in any mans mind For who liuing in this bodie which is corrupted and presseth downe the soule can know all truth when the Apostle saith We know in part By which it is also apparent that according to Austins iudgement for euer may be vnderstood of continuing after this life Secondly if these places proue that the Church is a sure foundation or rule of faith it must follow that euery particular teacher is so For eueryone of them to whom our Sauior made these promises was seuerally according thereunto taught all truth and not all ioyntly as if they might haue erred being seuered which you confesse of your Church and therefore this teaching appertaineth not to it Of the seuerall places I say further that in the first of them there is no mention of teaching all truth but onely of sending the spirit of truth That is saith Theophylact the spirit not of the old Testament for that was a figure and a shadow but of the new which is the truth The spirit of truth saith Lyra because he is essentially the truth and teacheth the truth He calleth him the spirit of truth saith Iansenius because he is the author of all truth and the only giuer of pure and sound truth For he onely teacheth the truth without mixture of any falshood or error Also he only teacheth the truth wherein the saluation of man consisteth In the second place you haue followed the vulgar Latine against the truth of the Greeke and sense of the text The Greek is All that I haue told you not as you translare it All that I shall say vnto you It is the praeter tense saith your B. Iansenius not the future in the Greeke So do Pagnin Vatablus and Montanus translate it The holy Ghost saith Theophylact shall make you vnderstand those things that are obscure and hard For those things that seeme hard vnto you I told you when I remained with you Your interlined Glosse referreth teaching to the vnderstanding and putting in mind to the will He shall teach you saith the Glosse that you may know and suggest that you may will Tell me then why I may not gather from hence that the Church shal not erre in manners or at least shall haue true faith in heart not onely in profession But it is certain that it is possible the greater part of a Councell yea and the Pope himselfe may be without true faith and it is enough to make a man a member of your church that he professe outwardly By all truth our Sauiour meaneth all truth necessary to saluation saith Iansenius So your Glosse Theophylact referreth it to the truth of those things which were shadowed out in the law and by the discouerie of the truth to be abolished Hugo restraineth it to all truth concerning Christ himselfe But let vs take all truth as largely as you can reasonably conceiue it Wil it follow therupō trow you that therefore the teaching of the Church is the rule of faith May not the Church be taught all truth by the holy Ghost and yet teach some deuice of her owne which she neuer learned of him It is one thing to teach a man all truth and another to keepe him so that he shal deliuer nothing but that truth Your Minor therefore is false because this first part of it is so A. D. §. 5. The charge and commission is plaine in S. Mathew Euntes docete omnes gentes Going teach all nations And in S. Marke Euntes in mundum vniuersum praedicate Euangelium omni creaturae Going into the whole world preach the Gospell to euery creature A. W. The charge which our Sauior gaue for preaching the Gospell to all nations was no commaundement to his Church that is to the companie of the beleeuers or to the Cleargie as you speake in all ages but a commission to the Apostles and first Disciples for the performance of that dutie The reason why it is deliuered so at large may be gathered out of Mathew 10. ch where at their first sending they were limited to the lost sheepe of the house of Israel and barred from going to the Gentiles Go not saith our Sauiour into the way of the Gentiles and into the cities of the Samaritans enter not but go rather to the lost sheepe of the house of Israel And that this charge belongeth not to men now a dayes it is euident because neither doth our Sauiour bestow the gift of tongues to that purpose as he did on those whom he sent to that worke neither can we haue any calling to such a purpose hauing no gifts for it yet do not we denie but that it is lawfull for Princes who haue by conquest or otherwise the gouernment of strange nations to see that they be instructed in the faith yea we thinke this lieth vpon them as a necessary dutie Neither do we barre any man of taking whatsoeuer oportunitie God shall giue to preach the Gospell to any people A captiue maide was by the blessing of God made the meanes of conuerting the Iberians from heathenisme to Christianitie the King of that people as the historie saith becoming the Apostle of his nation Frumentius and Aedesius being caried into India when they were yong were afterward employed by God for the instructing of the Indians in true religion But your minor is not proued by that commission Christ commanded his Apostles and Disciples in the beginning of the Church to preach to all nations therefore the Church hath commission to do the like now Besides this charge was layd vpon euery one of the Apostles and all the disciples so furnished with the gift of tongues according as the Apostles thought it meete to employ them Doth this commandement bind your church that is either your Pope who wil not preach at home much lesse will he go abroade to all quarters of the world or your Councels who seuerall are not the church And this charge lay vpon them to whom it was giuen seuerally and was not a matter to be performed by all together in one place Therefore your minor is false also in the second part of it concerning the charge which you say is giuen to
are professedly against him Fourthly it may be that by the Church our Sauiour vnderstandeth according to the custome of the Iewes in those daies not any assemblie of the Cleargie about Church causes but generally the Councell of the Elders which had power to end diuers matters betwixt parties of their owne nation After which example the Apostle willeth the Corinthians to appoint Iudges amongst themselues that they might not dishonor God the professiō of christianity by going to law one with another vnder infidels If this course take not effect then saith our Sauiour deale with him as thou wouldest mightst deale with an heathen or Publican by following the Law against him in what Court thou thinkest best for thy aduantage And this exposition as farre as I can yet see seemeth agreeable to the text it selfe the purpose of our Sauiour who seemeth to speake onely or especially of priuat abuses and quarrels as might be shewed by diuers reasons and in part hath bene by a learned writer to whom I referre the Reader in this point Fiftly it is more then manifest that our Sauiour speaketh not of hearing or not hearing the word but of some quarell or sinfull action at the most which also is to be determined or corrected in each seuerall congregatiō as the testimonies of Chrysostome Theophylact Iansenius and Bellarmine declare Tell the Church not the vniuersall Church spread ouer the face of the earth but that particular Church in which euery man liueth and to which he is subiect saith Lucas of Bruges There is a treatise that goes vnder Cyprians name wherein the author out of this place concludeth that euery man must seeke to his owne Bishop All these things considered let euery one iudge whether this peece of scripture be fitly applied by you to proue that we must beleeue without doubting whatsoeuer the Church deliuereth But I wil propound the reason that all men may vnderstand and consider it If he that being proceeded withall first by admonition of one man alone then by the like with one or two witnesses lastly by the gouerners of the Church concerning some quarrell or matter of fact will not obey the voyce of the Church must be to vs as an heathen or a Publican then whosoeuer wil not beleeue whatsoeuer the Church teacheth is greatly threatned in the Scripture But he that being so proceeded against in such a matter will not obey is so to be accounted of Therefore he that will not beleeue whatsoeuer the Church teacheth is greatly threatned in the Scripture I haue framed this Syllogisme as euery man may see with the greatest aduantage that can reasonably be taken by this place to your purpose whereas I needed not haue allowed the interpretation on which the reason is grounded Al which notwithstanding who discerneth not the weaknesse of the consequence in the proposition What if such a man be so to be accounted of doth it follow therupon that euery one who beleeueth not the Church in all points is threatned First vnlesse the same course of proceeding be held why should the partie be threatned because where such a course is taken there a man is to be so reckoned of Secondly how doth it follow that if in iudgement concerning a matter of fact the Church must be hearkned to for reformation then in all matters whatsoeuer it is absolutely to be heard by all men Such are your proofes in points of greatest importance I refer the Reader to that which I answered before concerning this place to which I adde vpon the present occasion that our Sauiour sending forth his Ministers to preach the Gospell chargeth them to square their doctrine according to those things which they had receiued in commission from him therfore are they no farther to be obeyed then their preaching is warrantable for the particulars out of our Sauiours instructions giuen them which the Apostles directed by Gods spirit truly and faithfully deliuered first by word of mouth and after by writing to be the pillar as Irenaeus saith and foundation of our faith And if this place conuey any such authoritie to the Church it giueth the same to euery seuerall teacher as it did to euery one of the Apostles seuerally and so euery priest secular or regular must be heard and beleeued whatsoeuer he teach A. D. §. 9. Thus you see our Sauiour Christ hath promised to his Church the continuall presence of himselfe and of his holy Spirit to teach that companie all truth Whereof followeth that it is infallibly taught all truth Moreouer he hath giuen charge and commission to that Church to teach vs and hath warranted and commaunded vs in all points to heare and do according to the saying of this Church which proueth that it appertaineth to this church to instruct vs in all points of faith and that we ought to learne of it in all matters of religion what is the infallible truth and consequently that the doctrine of this Church is the rule of faith A. W. Neither we nor you can see any such thing if we looke no farther then the holy Ghost directeth vs who assureth vs of no more but that the Apostles should be so instructed and guided that they should not erre in their teaching either by word of mouth or by writing by reason of ignorance or any other peruerse affection and that all the childrē of God shall be so taught and protected that they shall neuer fall away from saluation by Christ As for your Church or certaine companie that is your Cleargie and Pope assembled in a generall Councell neither those places of Scripture you haue brought nor any other you can bring once make mention of any such promise to them Therefore haue we no warrant to heare and doe in all points according to the saying of any Church not onely not of yours but so far as that Church teacheth according to the doctrine of our Sauiour Christ in the Scripture which is the rule of faith A. D. §. 10. Worthily therefore doth S. Paul call this Church columnam firmamentū veritatis the pillar and ground of truth Worthily also saith S. Austin Scripturarum à nobis tenetur veritas cum id facimus quod vniuersae placet Ecclesiae quam earundem Scripturarum commendat authoritas vt quoniam Scriptura sancta fallere non potest quisquis falli metuit huius obscuritate quaestionis Ecclesiam de illa consulat quam sine vlla ambiguitate Scriptura sancta demonstrat The truth of the Scriptures is holden of vs when we do that which pleaseth the vniuersall or whole Church the which is commended by the authoritie of the Scriptures themselues that because the holy Scripture cannot deceiue whosoeuer feareth to be deceiued with the obscuritie of this question let him require the iudgement of the Church which without any ambiguitie the holy Scripture doth demonstrate by which words he sheweth plainly that the sentence of
Christ vpon earth whereof hereafter when I come to speake of the Catholicke Church I denie the consequence of your proposition For it is possible that al the Churches in the world should gloriously professe the true faith and yet many thousands be vtterly ignorant that there are any such Churches Was not your Church of Rome which hath bene famous enough for outward state altogether vnknowne at the least a long time in the Indies and America till within these 100. yeares or thereabouts And yet do you aske If it did outwardly professe how it should not by this profession be made visible and knowne Hath not the kingdome of China if we beleeue the report of your Iesuites and other Friers bene a mightie and rich estate many hundred yeares and yet not heard of till of late in most parts of Christendome If you reply that the Churches must needs be knowne to them amongst or neare whom they are I answer that this proueth not their visibilitie to all men at all times no nor to them in the midst of whom they dwell vnlesse the Churches be setled in some outward peace that the members thereof may freely shew themselues Your minor is false it may come to passe that the Church may cease for a space to make open profession of that faith which in hart it doth beleeue else how could Eliah liuing in the kingdom of Israel haue bene ignorant that there were 7000. true worshippers of God in that countrey Your proofe is insufficient If it might come to passe say you that the Church should cease to professe outwardly then should the gates of hell mightily preuaile against it contrary to our Sauiours promise But the gates of hell shal not mightily preuaile against it contrary to his promise Therefore it may not come to passe that the Church should cease so to professe The consequence of your maior is too weake Our Sauiours promise is neither to the whole Church considered as a companie ioyntly together but to euery true beleeuer as I shewed before nor concerning outward profession against which Peter the head of the Church as you dreame grieuously sinned but of continuing ioyned to Iesus Christ as the head by a true iustifying faith resting on him for saluation In which estate Peter alwayes was preserued by our Sauiour though the diuel preuailed against him to the deniall of his Lord and Master for feate of death But let vs see your proofe If outward profession be a thing necessary to saluation then if the church faile in that the gates of hell mightily preuaile against it contrary to our Sauiours promise But outward profession is a thing necessary to saluation Therfore if the Church faile in outward profession the gates of hell mightily preuaile against it contrarie to our Sauiours promise I denie your minor Such outward profession as you meane is not necessary to saluation For the better clearing whereof we must a little examine what it is for a thing to be necessary to saluation then what profession may be counted necessary For the former that is necessary to the saluation of a man without which he cannot possibly be saued Now these things are either simply necessarie so that the absence of them shuts a man out of heauen or necessarie onely in some sort Simply necessarie on mans part for in that sense we speake now of things necessarie are acknowledgement of sinne faith in Iesus Christ and repentance wheresoeuer any of these is wanting there is no possibilitie of saluation so long as they are wanting Other things there are onely so far necessarie as that the contempt or neglect of them baâ—s a man of saluation Such are the Sacraments and outward profession both in generall by becoming a member of some true visible Church and in particular by witnessing the truth as oft as the Lord shall minister iust occasion Concerning this latter kinde of things necessarie we are to know that if we truly repent our contempt and neglect of these duties and beleeue in Iesus Christ there is mercie for vs with God though for want of oportunitie we can neuer come to the performance of them Touching the latter point of outward profession it is as I signified ere while of two sorts either a ioyning of our selues to some Church professing true Religion or a bearing witnesse of the truth of God which we professe To this latter especially belong the two former places of Scripture alledged by you To the former that text which you set in the last place as it shal appeare by and by You will aske me perchance whether of these two is the profession you speake of Surely to speake plainly and properly neither of them For it is a conceit of your owne deuising without any authoritie or warrant of Scripture and namely of those places you bring for proofe of it yet may it in some sort be referred to the latter as being a meanes whereby we may auouch the truth of God whereof we are professors So then the answer is first that no kinde of outward profession is simply necessary to saluation as if the absence of it were in it selfe damnable though the contempt or neglect of the dutie not repented of brings certaine damnation Secondly that it is not necessary to saluation either simply or in any sort that a whole Church should at all times make open profession to the world of that Religion which they hold and secretly practise This is that outward profession which is meant in your minor by which conceit you shut out of heauen all Churches that is all assemblies of the faithfull which at any time haue for borne to cast themselues wilfully into the mouthes of the bloud-thirstie and rauening persecutors by proclaiming openly their faith in Christ It is too true that an ouer-great zeale of martyrdome caried some men now and then farther then they should haue gone to the endangering and losing of their liues But it is as true that our Sauiour his Apostles and the Churches from time to time haue beene carefull to hide themselues from the sight of Tyrants when the Gospell was persecuted as farre as their callings and other occasions would giue them leaue Indeede they they neuer would neither is it lawfull denie the truth of God or themselues to be professors of it if they were called in question for it yet did they conceale as much as they could from the persecutors their times and places of meeting and also the seuerall members of their Churches To denie Christ or the truth of his religion is alwaies damnable and without repentance bringeth damnation vnauoideably not to make publicke profession of religion is not alwaies so but then onely when the Lord by some speciall occasion according to the generall dutie of a Christian or a mans particular calling thrusteth or draweth him foorth to giue testimonie to the truth by maintaining it or suffering for it Which your selfe also afterward acknowledge by
did not enter into it Sith at all times the merits and fruits of Christs passion are inclosed in it and the means of saluation and to escape eternall damnation are onely found in it The Church therefore is visible at all times For at all times that prophecy of Isaias must be true wherein our Lord speaketh thus to the Church Aperiētur portae tuae iugiter die ac nocte non claudentur vt afferatur ad te fortitudo gentium reges earū adducantur Gens enim regnū quod non seruierit tibi peribit Thy gates shal be cōtinually opened day night they shall not be shut that the strength of nations the kings therof may be brought vnto thee for the nation kingdome which shal not serue thee shall perish A. W. This is your fift argument wherein you haue wasted more paper then in all the former Let vs see if your paines be not to as little purpose If the true Church say you was once visible you should adde to all men and no reason can be shewed why it should be so then and not now then it is so now But the true Church was once visible and no reason can be shewed why it should be so then and not now Therefore the true Church is now visible Who denies this conclusion or what do you get by it The question is whether the Church of Christ be alwayes visible to all men or no. You conclude that it is now visible speaking neither of all men nor of all times in which two points the whole controuersie betwixt vs lieth saue that we also denie that there is any such one Church as you fondly suppose without any shew of proofe But that I may let nothing passe which is worth the answering I will apply this argument of yours as directly to the question as I can To speake plaine to euery mans vnderstanding the doubt is whether there be not at all times some one companie of Christians or other that maketh publicke profession of religion so that all men whatsoeuer and wheresoeuer may take notice of them as the true Church of Christ or no. In this question we differ from you in two points First we say that there neuer was any such companie in the world that could be knowne to all men Secondly we adde farther that euery true Church may be so opprest and driuen into a corner that it can be discerned by none but the members of it and yet may continue in the practise of religion by the ministery of the word sacraments and censures Now then I thus frame your reason for proofe of the question If at any time there were a company of mē visible to all the world and no reason can be shewed why there should at that time be such a companie and not at all other times also then there hath bene alwayes is now and shall be for euer such a companie visible to all men But there was once such a companie visible to all men and no reason can be shewed why there should be at any time and not at all times Therefore there alwayes hath bene is and shal be such a company visible to all men I denie the consequence of your maior though there had bin sometime such a company and no man were able to shew sufficient reason why there should be such a companie then and not alwayes yet I say it doth not follow that therefore there must at all times be such a companie The ground of my deniall is that God hath not reuealed to men the reason of all his decrees and actions Your Pope himselfe as presumptuous as he is I thinke dares not vndertake to declare or determine why many things fall out which we see dayly come to passe I presume all this while that you denie this possibilitie of giuing a reason to men onely not to God also for else your minor wil want little of blasphemie Your minor hath two parts and it is false in both For neither was the Church as you speake in the Apostles time visible to all men and there may be some reason why though it had bin so then yet it should not continue so alwayes Of the former I haue said enough heretofore and it is a conceit without truth or likelihood that all the world might take knowledge of the Church when it began in Ierusalem For the other point though I might stand vpon it and put you to proue that there can no reason be giuen yet will I endeuour for your better satisfaction if it may be to shew some reasons why it must needs be visible in the beginning yet was it not then visible to all mē and need not be so at all times But first let vs examine your proofe I will propound your reason in a syllogisme and then answer to it If the Church were in the Apostles time to be visible 1. because otherwise it could not be a Church 2. the offices and functions of the Church could not else be well performed 3. else men could not ioyne themselues vnto it and these reasons why it should be visible still continue then no reason can be shewed why it should then be visible and not alwayes But it was then to be visible for those reasons and they alwayes continue Therefore no reason can be shewed why it should then be so visible and not alwayes I do purposely omit the former part of the Assumption that the Church was visible to all men because I spake sufficiently of it before and it wil but hinder the examining of this syllogisme To which that I may answer orderly and plainly I deny the consequence of the maior Although these three had bin some of the reasons whether they be or no we will consider in the Assumption why the Church at the first must needs be visible and these reasons still continue yet would it not follow that then no reason can be shewed why it should be visible then and not so alwayes For there may and shall be other reasons giuen of the necessitie of visibilitie in those times Your minor also is false Neuer a one of the three alledged by you is any necessary reason of the Churches visibilitie in the Apostles times as shal appeare in the handling of them Wherein first I must speake a word or two of the definition of the Church as it is propounded in this place In the whole course of your treatise as I haue noted in my answer here and there you meane by the Church nothing else but your Clergie or rather your Bb. assembled together in a generall Councell Here belike vpon better aduice you are content to allow the people also for parts of the Church But to let that passe the first fault in your definition is that you fancie to your selfe one visible vniuersall Church consisting of all such as you account true Christians throughout the world whereas you are not
that the church must be visible to the members of it the Pastor must know the sheepe and the sheepe the Pastor Which of vs euer denied this visibilitie or what is this to proue that the Church in the beginning of the Gospell was to be famously visible in the eies of all the world In a word then to your propositions seuerally you must adde to your maior one of these two clauses either to the members of it signifying that the Pastors and sheepe could not know one another vnlesse the Church were then visible to the members of it or to all men meaning that there could not be such mutuall knowledge betwixt the Pastor and the sheepe vnles the church were visible to all men In the former sense your proposition is true but altogether wide from the marke you ayme at In the latter you shoote right but a great deale ouer For though your consequence by this meanes wil proue true and to the purpose yet your minor wil be ouerlarge and your question stil remaine vnproued For it is ridiculous to imagine not onely to affirme that the Pastor and flocke cannot know each other except all the world know them too Why may not the like be said of the husband and the wife the father and the children the maister and the seruants May there not be gouerning and obeying but where all men see these actions performed But I dwell too long vpon so cleare a matter Onely I was desirous to suite my answer somewhat like to your argument for the length of it lest shortnesse might make your followers thinke it not well answered We are now come to the third point of the former part which you conclude thus If men that were out of the church were to come into it for saluation and this could not be vnles it were visible then was this one reason of the visibilitie thereof But men out of it were to come into it for saluation and this could not be vnlesse it were visible Therefore this is one reason of the Churches visibilitie This is the onely argument of the three that hath any shew of reason in it and yet this also is far from any necessary proofe For if in your minor you meane that all and euery man was to come into the Church for saluation as if God had intended the saluation of euery particular man by the publishing of the Gospell your said minor is in that respect false For our Sauiour himselfe giueth his Father thankes that he had hid the mysteries of the Gospell euen there where it was publikly preached from the wise and men of vnderstanding and reuealed it to babes or simple men Yea he professeth that there was an especiall act of God his Father required to the drawing of men to beleefe euen there where himselfe preached most powerfully and that some only and not all were so drawne by God Neither doth the difference in this case proceed from man but from God lest that man which makes the difference betwixt himselfe and another should haue iust cause to boast as if he were more beholding to himselfe of whom he had the very act of being willing to be saued then to God who onely gaue him power to be willing Therefore your glorious and Angelicall D r. Thomas saith that there can no more reason be giuen why God intendeth the saluation of this man and not of that man then why the Mason layeth this stone aboue and that below each of them hauing a like fitnesse to each place But if by men you vnderstand those men that were chosen of God to euerlasting life to whom onely the preaching of the Gospell was effectuall to true faith and saluation then I denie your minor in regard of the latter part also For there was no necessitie of the visibilitie of the Church to that purpose as if God could not otherwise haue procured that they should beleeue and be saued I adde farther that the meanes which it pleased God to vse for the conuerting of those that were then to be saued and ordinarily for publishing the glad tidings of the Gospell was not the visiblenesse of the Church but the preaching of his Apostles So that as I signified before the greatest natiōs of the world embraced the Gospell of Iesus Christ not because they saw some visible Church to which they might adioyne themselues but for the euidence of the truth which some one man or other preached to them without any reference or respect to any visible Church whatsoeuer The dissoluing of the visible Church at Ierusalem was the occasion of preaching the Gospell through the world Hauing thus examined your seuerall proofes I returne now to your principal assumption for the farther confuting wherof I must shew that there may be some reason giuen why it might please God to haue the Churches visible in the beginning and not alwayes To which purpose I must first intreate all men to vnderstand that I do not vndertake precisely to set downe the reasons why God wil haue his churches somtimes famously knowen sometimes hidden from the knowledge of the world For his counsels are vnsearchable and his wayes past finding out Farther I acknowledge in all truth and humblenesse that I hold the reuealed will of God for a sufficient reason of any thing which he doth will though I could in my ignorance obiect somthing against it which might affoord some cause of doubting With this protestation I say these might be some reasons First wheras the means of saluation had bin for a long time shut vp in the land of Iurie and in a manner made proper to the Iewes now the partition wall being broken downe the Gentiles also were to be receiued into the Couenant which to our reason at least could not conueniently haue bene done vnlesse the profession of the truth had bene famous and visible But when once by this meanes the sound of it was gone ouer the world there was no such necessitie of continuing visible Churches Secondly this visibilitie was at the first the more necessarie because otherwise the Iewes to whom first the Gospel appertained being dispersed in many nations could not so easily take knowledge of it now they haue iudged themselues vnworthie of it and the Lord hath giuen it to vs Gentiles Thirdly it was no small proofe of the truth of the Gospell and the power of God working by the ministery of the word that so great multitudes should so speedily be conuerted by so weake meanes there is not alwaies the like vse of the Churches visiblenesse Fourthly though the Lord in his mercie would haue the Gospell published to the world yet when it became generally abused to wantonnesse that mens eares itched after new doctrines and esteemed more of their owne deuises then of the true worship of God appointed by himselfe it pleased his maiestie to leaue men to their owne blindnesse and presumption reseruing to himselfe
not perceiue those things which are of the Spirit of God For sith none by the onely power of naturall wit which in vnderstanding vseth the helpe of outward senses can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries which we beleeue by our faith neither doth the Spirit of God who as the principall cause infuseth this gift of faith into our soules ordinarily instruct any man in the knowledge of true faith immediatly by himselfe alone or by an Angell sent from heauen we must needs if we will haue true faith seeke first for that which it pleaseth Almightie God to vse as the ordinarie instrument and as a necessary meanes by which men may learne true faith the which is no other but the preaching and teaching of the true church according to that saying of S. Paul Quomodo credent ei quem non audierint quomodo audient sine praedicante quomodo praedicabunt nisi mittantur How shall they beleeue him whom they haue not heard how shall they heare without a Preacher how shall they preach vnlesse they be sent Therefore the true Church which only hath preachers truly sent of God must first be found out that by it we may heare and know which is the true faith Therefore of the two the true Church is rather a mark whereby we may know the true preaching and consequently the true doctrine of faith then contrarie that as heretickes say the doctrine should be a marke whereby all men must know which is the true Church A. W. Belike as you had good cause you suspected your abilitie to proue simply that the true preaching of the word in all matters fundamentall and the right administration of the sacraments are not a good marke of a true Church And therefore you rather chose to proue by way of comparison that the true church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by For so runs your conclusion directly If the end of seeking the true Church say you be principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine then the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by But the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points which otherwise wee cannot attaine to Therefore the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the Church by Though the conclusion as I said be not directly to the question which is not comparatiue but simple whether true doctrine be a good mark to discerne a true Church by or no yet I will take it as it is and answer to the parts of it Your maior in the antecedent may haue a double meaning First that we cannot in any point learne true doctrine but by the Church and then I denie the consequence For true doctrine in the fundamentall points of Religion may be a good marke of the true Church though we seeke the true Church because there are many points which we cannot learne without it But howsoeuer you vnderstand the maior the minor is euidently false First because the principall end of seeking the true Church is that we may truly worship God in the assembly of his children to his greater glorie and our farther assurance of his loue to vs as we may see euery where in the booke of the Psalmes Secondly because we are not to learne of the true Church as a necessarie and infallible meanes but of the ministers thereof who are appointed by God to giue vs knowledge of the meanes of saluation by expounding the word of God to vs not to binde vs to beleefe by their authoritie Your minor you offer to proue in this maner If no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries and faith be not to be had but by the teaching of the true Church then the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may learne by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine But no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries nor faith be had but by the teaching of the true Church Therefore the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessary and infallible meanes learne the true faith in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine The consequence of your maior is naught It doth not follow that we seeke the true Church to learne of it as a necessary and infallible meanes because we cannot know the mysteries of Religion without faith which commeth by the teaching of the true Church For there may well be teaching and learning without any such authoritie in the Church that teacheth Your minor is very doubtfull as I will shew in answering seuerally to the parts of it First then whereas you say that no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries if you meane that a man cannot acknowledge the truth of such mysteries without faith your minor in that part is true but if your meaning be that a man cannot vnderstand what the meanes of saluation appointed by God are without faith I take your minor to be false For though those meanes be indeed such as no discourse of man euer could deuise or thinke on being vtterly supernaturall yet it is possible for a meere naturall man to learne what they are out of the Scriptures and that without faith because the Scriptures may be vnderstood by such helpes of the tongues and arts as humane learning doth affoord vs though to the sauing knowledge thereof the especiall grace of God be absolutely necessarie The other point that faith cannot be found but by the teaching of the true Church may also haue a double sense The first that faith cannot be wrought in any mans heart but by the preaching of some man authorized to that purpose by the true Church and this as I shewed before is not alwayes true for faith may be and hath bene begotten in some by the reading of the Scriptures where the ministery of the word was not to be had and by the teaching of ordinarie Christians not set apart to preach the Gospell The other meaning is this that faith cannot be attained to but by our hearkning to the voyce of such a Preacher as we alreadie know to be sent by the true Church And this indeed specially fits your purpose but hath no likelihood of truth in it For they that came to faith by the Apostles preaching did not beleeue them as men autorized for their instruction by the true church but as being conuinced in their consciences by the euidence of the truth they deliuered without
of the Church so that we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it to vs nor certainely know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it is not a good marke to know the true Church by But true doctrine is so shut vp in the belly of the Church that we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it to vs nor certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it Therefore true doctrine is no good marke to know the true Church by Your Minor is false in both parts of it First it is vntrue that true doctrine is so shut vp in the belly of the Church yea many a true Church may hold some errors and many an hereticall Church some truth onely the fundamentall points are necessarie to the being of a true Church Secondly though true doctrine be in the belly of the Church as indeed there is no true Church in which it is not yet is it not so shut vp in it as you imagine For it is first and principally in the Scriptures where it may be found without any such authoritie of the Church as you dreame of yea I haue shewed that the Apostles themselues did not beget faith in the hearts of them to whom they preached by any authoritie of the Church but by euidence of the truth it selfe which they taught Concerning your proofe from Austins authoritie I first answer that he expoundeth not that place according to the literal meaning of the Prophet who speaketh not of any belly of the Church but saith that those lewd men of whom he speaketh haue alwaies bene giuen to naughtinesse from their mothers wombe These wicked ones saith Vatablus haue gone astray euer since they came forth of the womb they they haue erred euer since they were borne Yea Austin himselfe as your Glosse saith sometimes expoundeth it otherwise then here God saith Austin foreknew sinners euen from the wombe as he said to Rebecca So doth Ierome also vnderstand it so Theodoret. But let vs take it as Saint Austin doth here mystically expound it what will you prooue by it That truth is so shut vp in the belly of the Church that we cannot see it vnlesse she deliuer it by her mouth There is no such word in him no such thing to be gathered out of him His conclusion is that therefore they which differ from the true Church in doctrine are in error which is certainly true concerning fundamentall points and verie probable in all other points whatsoeuer The other part of your Minor is that true doctrine is so shut vp within the Church that we cannot certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it For the disproouing whereof it shall be sufficient to call to minde that which I haue often answered concerning those who beleeued by the Apostles ministerie without any consideration or thought of their being sent by the true Church but onely being conuinced by the manifest truth of that which they deliuered concerning forgiuenesse of sinne by our Sauiour Iesus Christ Your proofe out of Austin is insufficient as it may appeare in this sort If Austin say that he should not beleeue the Gospell vnlesse he were mooued by the authoritie of the Church then true doctrine is so shut vp within the Church that we cannot certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it But Austin saith so Therefore true doctrine is so shut vp in the Church that we cannot certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it I denie the consequence of your Maior First because as Austin himselfe saith of Cyprian we are not bound by the authoritie of Austins iudgement as if his writings were Canonicall We do Cyprian no wrong saith Austin when we distinguish his writings whatsoeuer they be from the Canonicall authoritie of the diuine Scriptures And againe I take not Cyprians writings for Canonicall but consider of them according to the Canonicall and allow of that with his commendation which agreeth to Scripture but by his leaue refuse that which disagreeth from Scripture This minde carried Austin to other mens writings this minde he desired other men should carrie to his Secondly I denie the same consequence because Austin might be mooued by the authoritie of the Church to acknowledge the Gospell for true and yet without the same authoritie learne out of the Gospell so acknowledged which is true doctrine which false Concerning Austins testimonie first it is manifest that he deliuereth not a rule for all men to follow as if by should not beleeue he meant that a man ought not to beleeue the Gospell nor sheweth an impossibilitie of beleeuing it vnlesse a man be moued by the authoritie of the Church but at the most declareth that the authoritie of the Church preuailed with him so farre as to make him acknowledge the Gospell for true which else he had either not knowne or doubted of Secondly it is obserued according to the rest of his writings that the Latine word he vseth in the African dialect signifieth Had not beleeued so that the sense is I had not beleeued the Gospell as the truth of God if the authoritie of the Church had not moued me thereunto The first motiue was the authoritie that is the learning consent holinesse of so many worthie men as from time to time had held and did hold the Gospell to be the truth of God Vpon this ground Austin gaue himselfe to the studie of the Scriptures and by the euidence of truth deliuered in it discerned that it was the word of God according to the report and reputation commonly held of it This sense agreeth with Austins purpose who to refute the Manichees that tooke their master Manes for the Apostle of Christ thus reasoneth against them I beleeue not saith Austin that he is Christs Apostle and then demaundeth of the Manichee what course he would take to prooue it to him Perhaps saith he you will read the Gospell to me and assay to prooue Manichaeus person out of it But what if you should light vpon one that doth not yet beleeue the Gospell Then follow the words alledged by you I truly had not beleeued the Gospell if the authoritie of the Church had not moued me This is yet more cleare by that which Austin writeth afterward First saith he we beleeue that which yet we cannot discerne that being made stronger in faith we may attaine to the vnderstanding of that we do beleeue not men now but God himselfe confirming enlightening our minde within But howsoeuer we vnderstand it Austin speaketh not of true doctrine shut vp in the Church so that it cannot be knowne to be true but by giuing credit to the Churches testimonie which is the point in question but onely of acknowledging the Gospell to be the word
and reason we must beleeue the teaching of it in euery point Now it is most certaine that the spirit of the true visible Church is of God as out of holy Scripture hath bene most euidently prooued And therefore our onely care should be to seeke out those markes by which all men may know which particular companie of men is the true Church of Christ whose doctrine we neither need nor lawfully may examine and trie in doubtfull manner but must obediently and vndoubtfully in all points beleeue as the onely assured and infallible truth A. W. For the better strengthening of your minor you assay to make and answer an argument which our Diuines vse to alledge against it and this it is They that are willed in Scripture not to beleeue euery spirit but to trie the spirits whether they be of God or no may iudge whether euery particular point the Church holdeth be true or no. But euery Christian is willed in Scripture not to beleeue euerie spirit but to trie the spirits whether they be of God or no. Therefore euery Christian may iudge whether euery particular point the Church holdeth be true or no. The Assumption of this Syllogisme we proue by that place of Iohn Dearly beloued beleeue not euery spirit but trie the spirits whether they are of God To this our proofe you answer two wayes First concerning the spirits to be tried then concerning them that are to make triall Of the former your answer is that this trying of spirits is onely meant of those spirits of which men may well doubt whether they be of God or no. First this answer cannot be warranted by the text which is generall Trie the spirits that is all spirits that come to preach vnto you if we apply it to the teachers rather then to the doctrine they deliuer And surely if the Apostle had meant as you expound him he would not haue said Trie the spirits but trie some of them Beleeue not euery spirit but trie those of which you may well doubt but he saith generally the spirits Secondly what may we imagine to be a cause of doubting If want of lawfull sending which is the great point you alwayes vrge either we must know the spirits we may doubt of to be vnlawfully sent and then by your doctrine we must vtterly reiect them without any farther triall or else the triall we are to make if we doubt is whether they be lawfully sent or no for till that appeare we may not heare them But our Apostle appointeth vs to make triall by their doctrine Thirdly the reason and end of this exhortation is that we might take heede of false Prophets and false Apostles which were crept into the Church Many false Prophets were stirred vp by the diuell faining that they had Apostolicall doctrine to deliuer Therefore saith Didymus the gift of discerning spirits is necessary Now these false apostles were not such as came without any calling for the diuell must needs haue knowne if he had bene then acquainted with your doctrine that it was not possible for him to preuaile by men not authorised by the Church but as the Apostle teacheth vs they were such as had gone frō amongst the true Christiās not by schisme in refusing communion with them so much as by heresie in departing from the truth of doctrine in maine points of religion Fourthly false teachers do so nearely resemble true and come many times with such shew of holinesse that a man cannot tell whom he should trust or suspect but as he findes his doctrine to be sutable or contrarie to the word of God Therefore Ferus a writer of your owne and one of no meane account vnderstandeth by spirit doctrine The Apostle warnes vs saith Ferus that we beleeue not euery spirit that is euery doctrine and perswasion To which purpose he alledgeth also that of Saint Paul Trie all things hold fast that which is good alledged by Thomas in the same matter To make this your answer the more likely you tell vs that when it is certaine that the spirit is of God we neither need nor ought doubtfully to examine or presumptuously to iudge of it as if we thought any such doubtfull or presumptuous course lawfull Yet in this case there is a difference to be obserued If we know the preacher to be sent of God in such sort as the Apostles were that he cannot erre then euery least doubt of that which he deliuereth is presumption and sinne But otherwise though it appeare to vs that he be authorised by God we may safely take liberty to examine whatsoeuer he teacheth without any presumption to iudge or needlesse doubting of that he deliuereth In a word if we heare such a man it is our dutie not to suspect his doctrine but where we haue some good apparence of Scripture for our suspicion In which case we are to search the word of God and to open our doubts to him that we may be satisfied If the matter be such as we cannot clearely prooue to be false by Scripture we are with all reuerence and humilitie to suspect our owne iudgement rather then his whom God hath appointed and authorised to be our teacher so farre must we be from presumption Your second exception is against them that are to trie the spirits who are not say you euerie simple or priuate man but the Pastors of the Church to whom the office of trying spirits doth appertaine as being put by God in his Church of purpose that we may not be carried away with euerie winde of doctrine That this exhortation belongeth to all Christians it may appeare by these reasons First we haue the like generall admonitions in other places of Scripture to all Christians not onely to Pastors and Doctors Beware of false Prophets saith our Sauiour to all men which come to you in sheeps cloathing Trie all things saith the Apostle and hold fast that which is good which latter place as before I noted is brought by Thomas of Aquin and Ferus to expound this text of Saint Iohn Secondly the whole Epistle is written to all in generall without any particular instruction or exhortation to this or that kinde of Christians as teachers learners masters seruants or such like Thirdly it is the course of the Apostles where they descend from generals to particulars to giue some speciall notice of that change by naming seuerally the estates to which they speake and not continuing onely the common titles of beloued or brethren as the Apostle in this place doth Fourthly himselfe professeth that his Epistle is written in generall to all men yea euen to young men and babes in Christ Neither doth he in this exhortation restraine his words to them that are teachers Fiftly if it be not lawfull for priuate men to trie the spirits then are they to receiue whatsoeuer is taught by any particular Doctor or Pastor and so be bound to beleeue meere
did borrow the propagation of faith and seeds of doctrine I make bold to alter your translation let the skilfull Reader iudge whether I haue cause or no. But what of all these Tertullian doth not say that no Church is to be accounted Apostolicke but that which can without interruption shew her descent from the Apostles nor that euery Church is true that can make such proofe of her original But whereas the hereticks against whom he there dealeth reiected and receiued Scripture at their choise and would neuer leaue wrangling Tertullian appeales to the iudgement of those Churches which were knowne to be founded by the Apostles and in which the truth was most likely to be found As for your argument of succession you shall heare Tertullians iudgment of it Let hereticks saith Tertullian in the same book faine a succession from the Apostles they shall get nothing by it For their doctrine compared with that the Apostles taught by the diuersitie and contrarietie thereof will declare that it came not from any Apostle or Apostolicke man because as the Apostles would not teach contrary one to another so Apostolick men would not deliuer doctrine contrary to the Apostles vnlesse they were such as were fallen away from the Apostles to preach otherwise then they did So then the chiefe triall of a true Church is by the doctrine of the Apostles and their successors in the truth because it is possible for hereticks to shew their descent from the Apostles or some Churches which had their beginning from the Apostles or Apostolicke men Yea it is manifest that the greatest heresies as the foure maine ones condemned in the foure first generall Councels had their beginning of them who could shew their pedegree step by step from the Apostles in respect of outward succession We haue soone how weakly you haue proued that personall succession is a thing belonging to the true Church it remaines that you proue it to be proper to the church and not common to it with heretickes To which purpose you thus reason No vpstart noueltie contrary to the former faith of the Church can haue any Apostle or Apostolicke man for founder thereof Euery heresie is an vpstart noueltie contrary to the former faith of the Church Therefore no heresie can haue any Apostle or Apostolicke man for the founder thereof How much more truly and reasonably spake Tertullian of the like matter when he said that no Apostolicke man taught contrary to the Apostles vnlesse he were such a one as was fallen from the Apostles He saw and acknowledged that it was possible for a man instructed by the Apostles themselues to forsake the truth of doctrine and become an author or maintainer of heresie Doth not Saint Iohn speake of some who being bred vp in the church by heresie departed from it What should I name Hymenaeus Alexāder Phygellus Hermogenes Nicolas and such like Hardly can you name me any heresie that euer tooke rooting but the first plant of it sprung vp in the nursery of the Church Therefore your maior is altogether vntrue being vnderstood as it is of Apostolicke men in respect of personall succession not of succeeding the Apostles in truth of doctrine But you thinke to make good your proposition by Tertullians authoritie who challengeth the heretickes to shew the beginning of their Churches from some Apostolicke men Is it possible you should either write or reade that sentence of Tertullian and not perceiue that it cuts the very throate of your cause Doth not Tertullian in the sentence alledged by you directly confirme our opinion and ouerthrow yours Let them shew vs their beginning saith Tertullian from some Apostolicke man Is that enough I if we beleeue you who define Apostolicknes by personal succeeding the Apostles But what saith Tertullian He in plaine termes requires such an Apostolicke man as perseuered with the Apostles and forsooke them not Now that by this perseuering with the Apostles and not forsaking them he meanes agreement in doctrine I proue it euidently by that which followeth in the same Chapter First Tertullian shewes that it is in vaine for them to pleade succession in place if their doctrine be found contrary to that which the Apostles deliuered I set downe the sentence before Secondly he doubts not to say that by the hereticks disagreeing from the Apostles in doctrine those Churches which cannot proue themselues to be Apostolicke by naming any Apostle or Apostolicke man as the first founder of them may yet conuince them not to be Apostolicke and are themselues to be counted Apostolicke because of their consent in doctrine with the Apostles This is the summe of Tertullians words the words themselues run thus To this triall namely by doctrine as the next sentence before sheweth shall the hereticks be called by those Churches which though they cannot alledge any Apostle or Apostolicke man for their founder as being of late and now daily planted yet agreeing in the same doctrine are neuerthelesse counted Apostolicke by reason of their agreement in doctrine Do you not see that Tertullian disputeth for vs against your pretended succession That he confesseth heretickes may alledge personall succession That he acknowledgeth those Churches for true which cannot deriue their pedegree from the Apostles or any Apostolicke man That he maketh the truth of doctrine agreeing with the Apostles a certaine and necessarie marke of the true Church And are you not ashamed for all this to bring Tertullian for an author of so grosse an error VVere you so blinde that you discerned not this your selfe or did you so despise your Readers that you presumed they would neuer haue the wit to see your ignorance or craft It is now discouered sufficiently and yet this one point more must be added that Tertullian requireth this shew of their Churches beginning not of all heretickes as you deceitfully alledge him if you read him your selfe and tooke him not vpon credit at some other mans hands but onely of those who pleade their continuance from the time of the Apostles If any heresies saith Tertullian dare fetch their continuance from the Apostles time that therefore they may seeme Apostolicke because they were while the Apostles liued we may say let them shew the beginning of their Churches let them vnfould the succession of their Bishops c. With such learning and conscience doe you Papists alledge the Fathers that he must needes be honester and wiser then you that will not beleeue you vpon your bare word VVe see then that to be Apostolicke in your sense is no good marke of a true Church because Hereticall Churches may so be Apostolicke and true Churches not Apostolicke and contrariwise that to be Apostolicke in doctrine as we expound it is a most certaine note whereby a true Church may be knowne and the same that we onely allow of A. D. §. 7. It appeareth therefore plaine enough that these foure properties One Holy
reason why we lay challenge to all those men as members of our Church and not of yours They agree say we disproue vs if you can with vs in the substance of doctrine concerning saluation by Iesus Christ and other points of the foundation If you were able to shew the like which is vnpossible yet would it not follow that they were of your Church because no man is in your account a member of your Church but he that agrees with you in all matters defined by your Church wherein I confidently anow and am readie to iustifie it there is no auncient writer in the first thousand years that is of your opiniō though in some one point or other they may agree with your doctrin But indeed we haue no saints canonized by our Church and made mediators betwixt God and vs to rob Iesus Christ of his office and God the Father of thanks due to him for granting our requests And if this want make our Church vnholy the Church in the time of our Sauiour himselfe and of his Apostles was most vnholy in which there neuer was any such practise or doctrine Indeed this is the maine holinesse whereby the learned of your side seeke to proue the truth of your Church and not that other of particular mens conuersation And what say you against our doctrine in this behalfe Forsooth that it cannot of it selfe leade the most precise obseruers of it to holinesse The particulars of our doctrine accused by you shall be defended in their seuerall places now a word or two onely in generall How doth any doctrine leade to holinesse but by propounding the rules of true obedience to God wherein all holinesse consists How doe the arts of Grammer Logicke Arithmeticke and Geometry leade a man to speake reason number and measure well but by deliuering the true rules to these purposes which in themselues direct to perfection in euery one of these professions And can our doctrine be said to be insufficient which acknowledgeth the scriptures of God to be the rule of all righteousnesse and all men bound to liue in obedience to the will of God contained and reuealed in them Do not we teach men that vpon paine of damnation they must labour to keepe all Gods commaundements whatsoeuer Are not our expositions of the commaundements as large in duties prescribed and sins forbidden as yours are Do we or you perswade men that there are some veniall sinnes small breaches of Gods law not to be regarded whereas we shew that euery least transgression of the law is damnable But because you charge vs with particular points which incline men as you say to libertie and loosenesse of life I will come to the examination of them seuerally yet but shortly for that I haue answered them all in another treatife against certaine articles propounded by one of your Popish faction It is vtterly vntrue that our doctrine inclines any man to breake fasting dayes nay rather we enioyne all men to obserue dayes lawfully set apart for fasting with all care and good conscience both for preparation to and cariage in the action As for your dayes of abstaining from flesh we hold the institution of them to be voyd of Religion and vnlawfull as making them in themselues a part of Gods seruice whereas a man for all your fasting may glut and gorge himselfe with wine and all dainties so he eate no flesh and yet keepe your Popish fast without danger of any censure for transgressing your law of fasting Confession of sinnes to a minister we neither commaund as a necessarie dutie nor forbid as a sinne but leaue it free to euery mans conscience as he findeth need of instruction or comfort It is so far from being a remedie of sinne as it is vsed by your church that it rather prouokes men to sinne because they haue so readie and easie a meanes to disburden their consciences as they thinke when they haue sinned A worthy gentleman that hath seene the experience of this matter doubteth not to auouch as much as I say that your people sinne that they may haue somewhat to confesse and confesse that they may returne to sin yea I can name and if need be bring forth one who hath bene faine in confession to accuse himselfe of sinnes which he neuer committed because his ghostly father would not be perswaded but that being a young man and liuing in one of your Popish countries he must needs be defiled with the corruptions of the place and age There is no one point wherein you more bewray your selues to be seruants and not sons of God then this confession against your owne soules that you would neglect the doing of good workes but that you looke to merite euerlasting life by them This motiue to good workes is so base that no man of a free nature would yeeld vnto it The very Philosophers could teach you that vertue is to be loued for vertue and not for any outward respect or consequent that may follow thereupon and God is more dishonored by your opinion of meriting then honored by any your supposed good workes whatsoeuer If you had euer felt what a sharpe spurre to holinesse of life the assurance of forgiuenesse of sinnes is you would neuer thinke that the practise of good workes is lightly esteemed where the mercie of God hath brought peace to the damned conscience And yet we want not that other helpe expectation of reward which we are sure shal be giuen to the least of our good works though not vpon their desert but of the meere mercie of God in Iesus Christ That wicked opinion of merit either before or after grace doth puffe vp the pride of mans nature and diminish the glorie of Gods mercie in Iesus Christ Wages vpon desert is the hire of seruants reward bestowed in loue is the gift of a kind father to a gracious sonne who hath shewed himself willing to performe duties of obedience What men doth it make carelesse but those proud Pharises that stand at the staues end with God and thinke scorne to labour in keeping the commandements vnlesse they may so keep them as to claime heauen vpon desert by keeping of them Is it not enough to stir vp any poore Christian soule to obedience that God will accept of his weake endeuours being performed in truth and singlenesse of heart and reward them with an vnspeakable measure of glorie There is no man vnlesse he be more desirous of his owne glorie then Gods but wil be content and glad to confesse his vnabilitie to performe the whole will of God perfectly and yet striue from time to time to doe as much as his corruption will giue way to It seemes that not diuinitie onely but also common reason failes you Shall I be carelesse in bearing my horse head and holding him vp from falling because I am sure he treads neuer a sure step but will stumble or trip continually do the best I can Put case
Aposiles without change is Catholicke The Romane Church is vniuersall in time place and doctrine of the Apostles without change Therefore the Romane Church is Catholicke If to make a Church Catholicke it be required that she continue in the doctrine of the Apostles how did you before denie that the doctrine of the Apostles is a necessary and certaine marke of the true Church But if you leaue this out and affirme that Church to be Catholicke which is vniuersall in doctrine and thinke it not needfull that the doctrine professed be the Apostles I denie your maior The reasons of my deniall I deliuered in the former Chapter when I shewed that truth of doctrine was the most proper and true marke of the Church But whatsoeuer your maior be your minor is euidently false in euery part of it The very foundations of the doctrine of the Apostles are ouerthrowne by your Church in the heresies you hold concerning predestination iustification free will the insufficiencie of the Scriptures and the headship of Antichrist your Pope Neither do you onely faile in the doctrine of the Apostles but in your vniuersalitie of time For how can that doctrine be said to haue bin always which was not taught by our Sauiour and his Apostles As for vniuersalitie in regard of the ample vniformitie of your doctrine if you speake of your Churches determination many points of great moment are not as yet defined by it for example take those maine questions whether the Pope be aboue the Councell or no whether he haue without a Councell priuiledge of not erring or no whether there be any merit of congruitie or no and such like Yea your Church denieth the chiefe point of all which in the Apostles time was held by all true Christians that iustification is by faith without the workes of the law I forbeare to shew the reasons of that I affirme because any man may setch them out of my former answer in this and the last Chapter I looked for proofe of your minor but you were too wise to vndertake a matter so vnpossible and therefore in stead of that you challenge vs to shew and proue the contrarie forgetting that it is the repliers part to proue and not the answerers But I pray you tell me in earnest did you neuer heare of any particulars whereby we except against your doctrine as none of the Apostles What a vaine flourish is this then to demaund new proofes of vs and neuer once assay to answer those we haue alreadie brought But I haue made answer to your challenge in my refutation of your proofe that your Church is one Yea our mens bookes are full of these points and proofes both out of Scriptures and Fathers As for your brag of being able to shew diuers points that we hold or denie otherwise then the true Church did in the time of the Apostles it is well knowne that in most controuersies betwixt vs you are faine to flie from the Scriptures of God to the writings of men and deuise interpretations to serue your turne In some points we denie not but that we dissent from the opinion of some writers of former ages but that we go against the iudgement of the whole Church before it became Antichristian neither we graunt nor you can proue And euen for those times of error we want not the testimonie of learned men to auouch our doctrine against your heresies But you call vpon vs to set downe the point of doctrine the author the time the place what companie did oppose themselues against it and who they were that did continue in the profession of the former faith What needs all this ado Wil it not serue the turne if we make it manifest that your doctrine is contrary to that the Apostles taught vnlesse we can shew you when euery one of your errors was first hatched What if the Scribes and Pharises had demaunded the like questions of our Sauiour Christ touching their errors reproued by him There is no doubt but that as he was God he could haue declared euery one of these particulars but do you thinke he would haue fed their foolish humor in this case and not haue contented himselfe with shewing that it was not so from the beginning Some of our Ministers haue truly and wittily refuted this conceit of yours by shewing how absurd it is for a man that is sicke of the plague a surfet or any such disease to denie that he is so diseased because the Physition cannot tell him at what time and in what place vpon what occasion in what companie he first tooke the infection or distempered his bodie by ill diet Is it a good plea against plaine and sound euidence whereby I proue that such a Lordship ought to be mine that I cannot shew when and how I lost the possession of euery seuerall close and meadow farme and cottage But to take away all iust excuse from you our writers haue shewed the first beginnings of many of your errors and might haue done of more if al were extant that hath bin written and your inquisitors and censurers had not as you call it purged indeed corrupted and maimed the writings of former ages wheresoeuer they made against you if you could light on them before they were too well knowne in the world This challenge hath as much reason as the former We must proue that there haue not bene some in euery countrey where the Gospell hath bene professed that haue held your Romane faith Or rather must not you proue your Catholicknesse by such induction But we confesse it to be likely that the diuell hath from time to time sowed some of your tares amongst the Lords wheate But that your whole faith as now you hold it was euer maintained any where till the last Councell of Trent we challenge you to proue if you can Surely the Greeke Church euen till this day dissenteth from you in many and some no small matters as your Popes supremacie that I may not name those Christians who are in precious Iohns countrey in Armenia and other parts of the world to whom your doctrine is as little knowne in a manner as ours is to those Indians you spake of Amongst whom for ought you can proue or know to the contrary there may be and in all liklihood are some to whom the Lord hath giuen grace to rest wholly vpon Iesus Christ for pardon of their sinnes without any mingling of their owne workes with Christs to procure them the inheritance of heauen All such we challenge to be of our Church though they agree with you in many of your errors through their ignorāce of the Scriptures As for our countrey of England which like that harlot you call deare as oft as you conceiue hope of bringing it into subiection to the Pope but otherwise wish it wholly destroyed as shee did the child it neither was conuerted by your proud Monke Austine but peruerted rather
ipsa sede Petri Apostoli cui pascendas oues suas Dominus commendauit vsque ad praesentem Episcopum successio Sacerdotum The succession of Priests from the very seate of Peter the Apostle to whom our Lord commended his sheep to be fed vntill this present Bishop doth hold me in the Catholicke Church See the same S. Austin Epist 150. Optatus li. 2. cont Parmen S. Epiphani haeres 275. S. Cyprian lib. 1. epist 6. S. Athanas Orat. 2. cont Arianos who pronounceth them to be hereticks qui aliunde quà m à tota successione Cathedrae Ecclesiasticae originem fidei suae deducunt who deriue the beginning of their faith from any other ground then from the whole succession of Ecclesiasticall chaire And this saith he is eximium admirabile argumentum ad haereticam sectam explorandam an excellent and admirable argument wherby we may espie out and discerne an hereticall sect The which argument these Fathers would neuer haue vrged and extolled so much if they had not thought that this succession was an vndoubted good marke of the Church and that with this lawfull vninterrupted Apostolicall succession of Doctours and Pastors the true Apostolicke faith and doctrine was always conioyned The which to be conioyned we may easily proue out of S. Paul himselfe who saith Dedit Pastores Doctores ad consummationem sanctorum in opus ministerij in aedificationem corporis Christi donec occurramus omnes in vnitatem fidei agnitionis Filij Dei in virum perfectum in mensuram aetatis plenitudinis Christi Signifying that Christ our Sauiour hath appointed these outward functions of Pastors and Doctors in the Church to continue vntill the worlds end for the edification and perfection thereof and especially for this purpose vt non simus paruuli fluctuantes circumferamur omni vento doctrinae that we may not be litle ones wauering and caried about with euery wind of doctrine Wherefore that this ordinance and appointment of Pastors and Doctors in the Church made by our Sauiour Christ may not be frustrate of the effect intended by him we must needs say that he hath decreed so to assist and direct these Pastors in teaching the doctrine of faith that the people their flocke may alwayes by their meanes be preserued from wauering in the auncient faith and from being caried about with euery wind of new doctrine The which cannot be vnlesse with succession of Pastors be alwayes conioyned succession in true doctrine at least in such sort that all the Pastors cannot at any time vniuersally erre or faile to teach the auncient and Apostolicke faith For if they should thus vniuersally erre then all the people who do and ought like sheepe follow the voice of their Pastor should also generally erre and so the whole Church which according to S. Gregorie Nazianzen consisteth of sheepe and pastors should contrary to diuers promises of our Sauiour vniuersally erre So that we may be sure that the ordinary Pastors shal neuer be so forsaken of the promised Spirit of truth that all shall generally erre and teach errors in faith or that there shall not be at all times some sufficient companie of lawfull succeding Pastors adhering to the succession of S. Peter who was by our Sauiour appointed chiefe Pastor of whom we may learne the truth and by whom we may alwayes be confirmed and continued in the true auncient faith and preserued from being caried about with the wind of vpstart error The which being so it followeth that the true Apostolicke doctrine is inseperably conioyned with the succession of lawfull Pastors especially of the Apostolick sea of Rome Wherefore we may against all heretickes of our time as the ancient fathers did against heretickes of their time vrge this argument of succession especially of the Apostolicall succession of the Bishops of Rome We may say to them as S. Augustine saith to the Donatists Numerate sacerdotes ab ipsa sede Petri in illo ordine Patrum quis cui successit videte Number the Priests from the seate it selfe of Peter and in that order or row of Fathers see which succeeded which We may say with Irenaeus Hac ordinatione successione Episcoporum traditio Apostolorum ad nos peruenit est plenissima ostensio vnam eandem fidem esse quae ab Apostolis vsque nunc confirmata est By this orderly succession of Bishops the tradition of the Apostles hath come vnto vs and it is a most full demonstration that the faith which from the Apostles is confirmed euen vntill now is one and the same We may tell them with Tertullian Nos communicamus cum Ecclesijs Apostolicis quod nulla aduersa doctrina facit hoc est testimonium veritatis We do communicate with the Apostolick Churches which no contrary doctrine doth and this is a testimony of the truth A. W. That Apostolicknesse which is a marke of the true Church is as I shewed Chap. 15. an agreement and sucession in doctrine with and to the Apostles not as you would haue it a personall descent from them And therfore your reason against our Churches is naught Euery Apostolicke Church say you can deriue the pedegree of their preachers lineally without interruption from the Apostles The Protestant Churches cannot so deriue their pedegree Therefore the Protestant Churches are not Apostolicke Your maior is euidently false because otherwise some church professing the true faith and not keeping record of the succession of their teachers might be held not to be Apostolicall But Tertullian affirmeth the contrary directly that those Churches which agree with the Apostles in faith though they can alledge no Apostle or Apostolicke man for their first founder yet are neuer the lesse to be counted Apostolicall because of their consent in doctrine And indeed it is both impious and absurd to denie any Church to be Apostolicall that holdeth that faith by the preaching whereof the Apostles planted Churches Your minor also is vntrue because it is wel known that if you haue any such succession amongst you we haue it too For Luther Caluin and some other of our Diuines were ordered by bishops of your church Concerning Luther what reasonable mā can be so absurd as to think that Luther wold make any mā beleeue that the Gospel was first preached by himself whereas he continually appeals for the proof of his doctrine to the writings of the Prophets and the Apostles But Luther might truly say that he was the first which had in those times published Christ especially in the chiefe point of the Gospell which is iustification by faith in Christ And in this respect it is an honor to Luther to haue bin a son without a father and a disciple without a master and no more glory to your Popish Bishops and Priests to haue had so long a succession in error and heresie then for the Arians to haue bene able to reckon vp
so many Bishops of their faction Vincentius acknowledgeth a succession continued though secretly from Simon Magus to Priscilian Let vs see ' now whether you bring any better reason for your selues then you haue done against vs They are euen much about one That Church which can shew a line all succession of her Bishops without interruption from the Apostle Peter to Cloment now liuing is Apostolicke But the Church of Rome can shew such a succession without interruption Therefore the Church of Rome is Apostolicke Tertullian thought it sufficient to proue the hereticks not to be Apostolicke that their doctrine agreed not with the Apostles And Ambrose truly affirmed that they haue not the inheritance of Peter which haue not the faith of Peter He saith Nazianzen that professeth the same doctrine of faith is partaker of the same throne But he that embraceth contrary doctrine must be thought an aduersary euen in the throne He may haue the name but the other hath the truth of succession Therefore Irenaeus saith plainly that those Bishops onely are to be obeyed who together with succession haue the truth But of this I spake before Chap. 15. Where there is no beginning what continuance or successiō can there be Is not the question whether Peter were euer at Rome or no full of doubt Are you able in any sort to resolue it by Scripture vnlesse perhaps we may say that he neuer came there because it is no where plainly set downe nor probably to be gathered from thēce that euer Saint Peter was at Rome But it is more vnlikely that euer he was Bishop of Rome I might go forward to aske you who was his successor Linus or Clement which is a point not agreed vpon by auncient writers Since that time you haue had 32. schismes in your Church sometimes two sometimes three Popes at once that your succession cannot be so cleare as you would make it To proue your minor you tell vs that the auncient Fathers did much esteeme succession from the Apostles and vsed it as an argument to confound the hereticks and to confirme themselues in the vnitie of the Catholicke Church Who denieth that succession is to be esteemed and that it hath some force to confute and confirme But what succession is it that is of such price force Personall succession alone without truth VVe heard ere while what Tertullian Irenaeus Nazianzen and Ambrose say concerning succession that without truth it deserueth no credit Yea some of your owne writers confesse that an argument from succession doth not hold affirmatiuely as if there were a true Church wheresoeuer there is succession VVherby doth Irenaeus confound heresies by shewing a personall succession of Bishops from the Apostles VVhat could that helpe the matter vnlesse he be also able to proue that the doctrine he maintaines hath come successiuely from the Apostles by them He speaks plaine enough We confound all errors by the doctrine of the Apostles and the faith preached to men by thē Let not the word tradition trouble any man Irenaeus for that expounds himselfe where he saith that the Apostles first preached the Gospell and afterward by the will of God deliuered it to vs in the Scriptures to be the pillar and foundation of our faith The continuance of this doctrine by succession is vsed by Irenaeus as a motiue to perswade men to the liking of that truth which had receiued so good acceptation and was warranted by so good authority as the teaching of the Apostles themselues In a word Irenaeus saith that heresies might then be refuted by shewing that they who had bene ordained Bb. by the Apostles and their successors continued in the doctrine receiued without any approbation of such hereticall fancies Austin you say was held in the Church as himselfe professeth by the succession of Priests from the verie seat of Peter And why should he not be held by that rather thē leaue the Church for the dreames of the Manichees VVe say as Austin did that such a succession is a better proof of the Church then their bare promise of truth especially since as the same Austin sheweth otherwhere they wold haue their word to be takē as you now would haue yours for sufficient proofe But Austin in the verie same place you alledge addeth withall that if they could shew that the truth was on their side he would preferre it before succession and whatsoeuer other reason that made him continue a member of the Church In this sense did those other ancient writers esteeme and vrge succession whose names you muster to small purpose but onely for shew of authoritie Concerning that speech of Athanasius be not so iniurious either to him or your selues as to presse his testimony to so leud a purpose Would you haue men thinke that he which refuted and confounded Arius and his complices by so many and so worthy proofes out of the holy Scriptures would condemne not onely other men but himselfe also for deriuing his faith in that point from the Scriptures But though you care not what become of all the Fathers so your Popery may flourish yet like a reasonable man consider what a terrible blow you giue your owne cause Is there no other marke of the Church but succession Then by Bellarmines iudgement there is none at all who allowes it not as a certaine light to shew vs the Church But what wants it of blasphemy to pronounce men to be hereticks for making the Scriptures the foundation of their faith to which purpose Irenaeus saith that they were left And I pray you answer me directly why it should not be as lawful for me to groūd my faith vpon the beginning of this succession in the Apostles as vpon the continuance of it in other men Yet might Athanasius well say concerning that point of our Sauiour Christs Godhead that he was to be counted an hereticke that should deriue the beginning of his faith from any other ground then the whole succession wherein the Apostles were comprehended and whose doctrine the Churches of Christ till that time in that matter had followed But how will you proue out of this place of Athanasius that this should be a mark to discerne hereticks by alwaies It was then an excellent and admirable argument in that point not of it owne nature but because the truth had successiuely bene held till those times How will you answer Bellarmine who affirmes confidently and truly that truth goes not alwaies with succession For if it did why should not succession be a certaine mark of a true Church But Bellarmine saith it is not You tell vs that otherwise the ordinance of Pastors made by our Sauiour Christ shall be frustrate of the effect intended by him What vnlesse there be truth wheresoeuer there is succession Then can it not come to passe that any Pastor hauing lawfull ordination can erre For if one
may for all the priuiledge of succession doubtles succession doth not by the nature of it free a man from erring But they cannot all vniuersally erre What is that to purpose vnlesse this impossibilitie of erring proceed from succession Let vs draw your reason into forme that we may the better see the force or weaknesse of it If our Sauiour haue appointed a succession of Pastors that the Church may not be caried away with euery blast of doctrine then succession and truth go together But our Sauiour hath appointed Pastors to that purpose Therefore succession and truth go together Now the weaknesse of your reason easily bewrayes it selfe the consequence of your maior is so feeble Shall I shew it you euidently in a like matter If God appointed Dauid and his successors to rule his people according to his wil and word that they might truly serue him then whosoeuer succeeded Dauid did so rule and the people so serued God But God did appoint Dauid and his successors to that end Therefore whosoeuer succeeded Dauid did so rule and the people so serued God I shall not neede to make any further answer to your maior vnlesse perhaps I may bring the like reason from Gods appointing a succession of Priests and Leuites in the Church of the Iewes to the very same end that the people might know and do his will which intent of his notwithstanding was often made voyde both by Priests and people Yet do not we say that the world hath at any time bene without true Pastors and their flockes in some one place or other in a greater or lesse number who haue taught and beleeued the true faith of Iesus Christ in all points fundamentall without distinct beleefe whereof no man can be saued But we denie that either all or any Pastor hath this priuiledge because of his succession yea we affirme that a Christian congregation where the ordinarie meanes cannot be had may chuse and authorize any man able and fit to teach for their Minister and the truth of God may be in such companies preserued without any plea of not erring by reason of succession established by vertue of our Sauiours appointment To that of Nazianzen I answered before he speaketh not of the vniuersall Church as you falsly auouch but of seuerall congregations as his very words shew Order saith he hath decreed in Churches not in the vniuersall Church that the flocke and the Pastor should be diuers the flocke one thing the Pastor another or that some should be the flocke othersome the shepheards You may say what you will and be neuer a whit the nearer if you bring no better proofe then yet you haue done Saint Augustine biddeth the Donatists number the Priests and see who haue succeeded one another in the Bishopricke of Rome What conclude you from thence That the Church of Rome was at that time Apostolicke in regard of personall succession Who denieth it But it followeth not hereupon either that it is still in that sort Apostolicke about which we will not striue or which is the principall matter that it hath therefore such Apostolicknesse as is required to make a true Church namely truth of doctrine which must needs be meant by Augustine in the words that immediatly follow That is the rocke against which the proud gates of hell preuaile not For it is more then absurd to make personall succession the rocke on which the Church is builded and against which hell gates cannot preuaile It was a likely argument against the Donatists that in so long a succession there had bene neuer a Donatist which Saint Augustine himselfe in another place concludeth after he hath reckoned vp all the Romane Bishops from Linus to Anastasius then liuing In the ranke of this succession saith Augustine there is not one Bishop found that was a Donatist This testimonie of Irenaeus was neuer of your owne reading in him as the corrupt alledging of it perswadeth me I will set it downe as it is in the author himselfe By this ordination and succession saith Irenaeus the tradition of the Apostles hath come to vs And this is a most full demonstration that it is one and the same quickning faith which hath bene preserued and truly taught in the Church from the Apostles till now What one word or letter is there in this sentence to prooue that your Church of Rome at this day is Apostolicke or that bare personall succession is enough to make a Church Apostolicke Rome in Irenaeus time was an Apostolicall Church because it had preserued and truly taught successiuely Bishop after Bishop the doctrine which was deliuered by the Apostles Is it therefore Apostolicke now when it hath ouerthrowne the verie foundation of the Apostles doctrine I maruell what Apostolicke Churches they are with which you communicate whereas you say that there is no Church that hath succession from the Apostles but yours Your Monks of Burdeaux draw the vniuersall Church to the communion of the Romish Church It was indeed a testimonie of the truth to communicate with the Apostolicke Churches in Tertullians time while the truth was for the substance of it preserued amongst them But let vs apply this to our purpose what would you prooue by it that the Church of Rome is Apostolicke Here is no mention nor thought of your Church in particular But Tertullian saith it is a testimonie of truth for a man to communicate with the Apostolicke Churches It was then a testimonie but now those Churches are decayed or if some of them remaine amongst the Grecians wil you grant that all they hold is true How will you prooue that Tertullians generall speech belongeth more to your Church then to those of the Greeks Tertullian telleth you afterward that contrarietie to the Apostles doctrine may conuince Churches not to be Apostolicke though they alledge succession from the Apostles But his opinion may sufficiently appeare by that which hath bene formerly alledged out of him and the truth of this whole question by your discourse and my answer to it A. D. CHAP. XVII The Conclusion of the whole discourse A. W. The conclusion of your whole discourse as your selfe expound it in your preface is this that the faith which the authoritie of the Romane Church commendeth to vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith But this Chapter is such as that you might rather terme it a recapitulation then a conclusion of your discourse For the greatest part of it by farre is spent in a needlesse repetition of that which was before deliuered and that which should be indeed your conclusion is scarce signified in it A. D. §. 1. Now to make an end considering all this which I haue said and prooued to wit that there is but one infallible entire faith the which is necessarie to saluation to all sorts of men the which faith euerie one must learne by some knowne
infallible and vniuersall rule accommodate to the capacitie of euerie one the which rule cannot be any other but the doctrine and teaching of the true Church the which Church is alwaies to continue visible vntill the worlds end and is to be knowne by these foure markes Vna Sancta Catholica Apostolica One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke the which markes agree onely to the Romane Church that is to say to that companie which doth communicate and agree in profession of faith with the Church of Rome whereupon followeth that this Church or companie is the onely true Church of which euerie one must learne that faith which is necessarie to saluation Considering I say all this I would demaund of the Protestants how they can perswade themselues to haue that faith which is necessarie to saluation sith they will not admit the authoritie and doctrine of the Church of which onely they ought to learne this faith Or how they can as some of them do challenge to themselues the title of the true Church sith their companie hath neuer one of the foure markes which by common consent of all must nedes be acknowledged for the true markes of the Church How can their congregation be the true Church which neither is One because it hath no meanes to keepe vnitie nor Holy because neither was there euer any man of it which by miracle or any other euident testimony can be prooued to haue bene truly holy neither is their doctrine such as those that most purely obserue it do without faile thereby become holy nor Catholicke because it teacheth not all truths that haue bene held by the vniuersall Church in former times but denieth many of them neither is it spred ouer all the Christian world but being diuided into diuers sectes euerie particular sect is contained in some corner of the world Neither hath it bene in all times euer since Christ but sprong vp of late the first founder being Martin Luther an Apostata a man after his Apostasie from his professed religious order knowne both by his writings words deeds and manner of death to haue bene a notable ill liuer Nor Apostolicke because the preachers thereof cannot deriue their Pedegree lineally without interruption from any Apostle but are forced to beginne their line if they will haue any from Luther Caluin or some latter How can they then brag that they haue the true holy Catholicke and Apostolicke faith sith this is not found in any companie that differeth in doctrine from the onely true holy Catholicke and Apostolicke Church For if it be true which Saint Austin saith that in ventre Ecclesiae veritas manet the truth remaineth in the bellie of the Church it is impossible that those who are disioyned by difference of beleefe from that companie which is knowne to be the true Church should haue the true faith For true faith as before hath bene prooued is but one wherefore he that differeth in beleefe from them which haue the true faith either he must haue a false faith or no faith at all Againe one cannot haue true faith vnlesse he first heare it according to the ordinarie rule of Saint Paule saying Fides ex auditu faith commeth of hearing but how can one heare true doctrine of faith sine praedicante without one to preach truly vnto him And how should one preach truly at least in all points nisi mittatur vnlesse he be sent and consequently assisted by the spirit of God Now how should we know that Luther or Caluin or any other that will leap out of the Church leaue that company wherin is vndoubted succession and by succession lawfull mission or sending from God how should we I say know that these men teaching a new and contrarie doctrine were indeed sent of God Nay certainly we may be most sure that they were not sent of God For sith Almightie God hath by his Sonne planted a Church vpon earth which Church he would haue alwaies continue vntill the worlds end and hath placed in it a visible succession of lawfull ordinarie Pastours whom he will with the assistance of himselfe and his holy Spirit so guide that they shall neuer vniuersally faile to teach the true faith and to preserue the people from errours we are not now to expect any to be sent from God to instruct the people but such onely as come in this ordinarie manner by lawfull succession order and calling according as S. Paule saith Nec quisquam sumit sibi honorem sed qui vocatur à Deo tanquam Aaron Neither doth any man take to himselfe the honour but he that is called of God as Aaron was to wit visibly and with peculiar consecration as we reade in Leuiticus cap. 8. To which accordeth that which we reade 2. Paralip 26. where Azarias said to king Ozias Non est tui officij Ozia vt adoleas incensum Domino sed Sacerdotum hoc est filiorum Aaron qui consecrati sunt ad huiusmodi ministerium egredere de sanctuario c. It is not thy office O Ozias to offer incense to our Lord but it is the office of Priests to wit of the sonnes of Aaron who are consecrated to this function or ministerie go out of the Sanctuarie Which bidding when Ozias contemned and would not obey he was presently stricken with a leprosie and then being terrified feeling the punishment inflicted by our Lord he hastened away as in the same place is declared By which places we may learne that it doth not belong to any one to do priestly functions as to offer incense or sacrifice to God or take vpon them the authoritie to preach and instruct the people but onely to Priests called visibly and consecrated for this peculiar purpose as Aaron and his children were For though the priesthood of the Pastors of the new law be not Aaronicall yet it agreeth with the Priesthood of Aaron according to S. Paul his saying in the foresaid place in this that those that come to it must not take the honor of themselues but must be called vnto it of God as Aaron was to wit visibly and by peculiar consecration In which ordinarie maner whosoeuer cometh he may be truly called Pastor ouium a Pastor of Christs flocke because intrat per ostium he entereth in by the doore to wit by Christ himselfe who first visibly called consecrated and sent immediately the Apostles and the Apostles by authoritie receiued from him did visiblie by imposition of hands call consecrate and send others and those in like manner others from time to time without interruption vntill these present men who now are Priests of the Catholicke Romane Church These therefore enter in by Christ who is the doore and therefore these be true Pastours and whosoeuer entereth not thus in at the doore but commeth in another way our Sauiour telleth vs how we should account of him when he saith Qui non intrat per ostium in ouile ouium
agreed about this point without any doubting Or if there were any doubt it was on the Papists side rather then on ours because they require not true faith to make a man a member of the Church but onely the outward profession of beleefe Yea the Pope may be head of the Church though he beleeue not with his heart And therfore it may not seeme strange to vs that a Iesuited Priest in Wisbich castle should affirme That one that was no Christian might be Pope of Rome But such a glorious title of the necessitie of faith maketh a goodly shew to the ignorant yet let no man deceiue himselfe herewithall For this faith which the Papists in words so magnifie is not that beleef in Iesus Christ whereby a Christian man resting on him for pardon of his sinne is iustified but onely an agreeing to the truth of Scripture So that a man may be full of this their faith and yet be euerlastingly damned A. D. §. 2. This ground is set downe by S. Paul himselfe who saith Sine fide impossibile est placere Deo without faith it is vnpossible to please God The same is confirmed by S. Augustine who saith Constat neminem ad veram posse peruenire beatitudinem nisi Deo placeat Deo neminem placere posse nisi per sidem Fides namue est bonorum omnium fundamentum Fides est humanae salutis initium Sine hac nemo ad filiorum Dei consortium peruenire potest quia sine ipfa nec in hoc seculo quis quam iustificationis consequitur gratiam nec in futuro vitam posside bit aeternam It is certaine that none can come to true hap pinesse vnlesse he please God and that none can please God but by faith For faith is the foundation of all good things Faith is the beginning of mans saluation Without this none can come to the fellowship of the children of God because without this neither doth any in this world obtaine the grace of iustification neither shall â—e in the next possesse eternall life Thus saith S. Austen A. W. Well might this whole chapter haue bene spared especially since your proofe is no more direct for your purpose For Saint Paule in that place speaketh of a true iustifying faith which presupposeth a beleefe of all things knowne to be reuealed by God and requireth that a man should not onely acknowledge God to be a rewarder of them that come vnto him that is beleeue in him but also that he should rest vpon him as vpon such a one without which questionlesse no man can please God though he assent neuer so stedfastly to the truth of those and such like points But if you will needs expound the Apostle of assent onely I must put you in mind that by this place you can proue necessitie of faith no farther then for the beleeuing of those two points he specifieth That God is and That he is a rewarder of them that come vnto him Indeed whosoeuer doubts of these particulars thus declared in Scripture can neither be saued nor please God but it doth not follow hereupon that therefore there is a necessitie of faith to the beleeuing of other matters many whereof haue no dependance vpon either of these A. D. §. 3. And the same might be confirmed out of other Scriptures and Fathers but that the matter is cleare enough A. W. The first of these places Rom. 2. is I take it misquoted by the Printer 2. for 3. In the second there is not one word of faith the Apostle there labouring to conuince both Gentiles and Iewes of sin against God by the breach of the law of nature Moses The other two are to be vnderstood of true iustifying faith which must needs be more then assenting to the truth of that which God speaketh as the very phrase of beleeuing in Iesus Christ proueth which cannot with any likelihood of reason be takeÌ„ for giuing credit to those things which are spoken by or of our Sauiour Christ It is one thing to beleeue that God is Credere Deum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 another thing to beleeue in God Credere in DeuÌ„ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 though the latter alwayes imply the former and the former sometimes the latter Irenaeus hath not a syllable of the necessitie of faith in the place which you quote and where he speakes of it he onely shewes it was necessary that God should reueale his truth by his Word which was his Sonne because by the light of naturall reason all things necessary to saluation could not be found out This knowledge Irenaeus tyeth to the Scriptures Had it not bene better for you to haue spared these needlesse allegations in a matter that was out of question A. D. §. 4. Onely this I will adde that when the Scriptures do require faith as a thing absolutely necessary to saluation the common tradition of Councels and Fathers do interprete not onely that there is a positiue precept of faith for if it were but a positiue precept ignorance might excuse in some case but that at least some kind of faith is necessaria necessitate medij that is to say is ordained as a necessary means without which no man can attaine saluation in any case and that in this matter si quis ignorat ignorabitur if any man by ignorance do not know he shall not be knowne as S. Paul speaketh A. W. This interpretation of the Scriptures meaning in requiring faith as a thing absolutely necessary to saluation is altogether vnnecessary For who knowes not that there can be no saluation without that which is absolutely necessary therunto Therefore it was more then enough to name the common tradition of Councels and Fathers But such gay termes make a goodly shew in the eies of the simple But I pray tel me what haue you got by this learned interpretation Is there any Christian man so ignorant as to deny that some kind of faith is ordained as a necessary meanes without which men cannot attaine to saluation in any case Sure this can neither hurt vs who acknowledge faith to be necessary and if you speake of iustifying faith altogether sufficient to iustification nor helpe you who allow no faith but that which depends vpon the authoritie of the Church But the Councels and Fathers say that kind of faith is necessary What of that Do they therefore hold it necessary to saluation for a man to beleeue whatsoeuer the Church shall teach though without the warrant of Scripture Can a man in no case attaine to saluation without this faith May not the very reading of Scripture without any ministery of man be a meanes by the worke of Gods spirit in his heart to breed true faith to iustification and saluation The necessitie of faith is double First concerning faith as you take it for an assent it is not possible for any man to be
saued that doth not certainly beleeue that there is no name vnder heauen by which he may be saued but the name of Iesus and that in him there is saluation yet may a man attaine to saluation that is not resolued of many points which are determined by the Church that is by any company of men whatsoeuer Secondly faith is necessary to saluation because no man can be saued that doth not beleeue in Iesus Christ that is that doth not wholy renounce himselfe and rest vpon Iesus Christ to be iustified by his obedience and sacrifice But the Lord hath not so tied his owne hands that he cannot worke both these in the heart of whō he wil without some man to tell him by word of mouth that he must thus beleeue The proofe you bring out of the Apostle is vtterly false both for the translation and application The word vsed by the Apostle is no where to be found either in the passiue or middle voyce as it must needs be if it should signifie shall not be knowne but is meerly actiue the first present tense of the Imperatiue moode or as Ramus cals it the first future infect and is as much in English as let him be ignorant so do the learned of your owne side translate it Vatablus Pagninus Caietan Salmero so do they expoūd it as if he should say quoth Vatablus If any man will not know these things and will be ignorant let him be ignorant at his owne peril I will not striue saith Cardinal Caietan with thē that know not these to be the Lords cōmandemēts but if any man be ignorāt let him be ignorāt The same sense giue Chrysostom Theophylact and Oecumenius As if the Apostle by a kind of ironicall concession should as it were leaue euery man to himself to think and do in those matters as should please him And therefore Chrysostome expounds it by that If any man list to be contentious we haue no such custom nor the Churches of God As if he should say let him that will refuse to be ruled by me in these cases it is enough for vs that the Churches of God and we Apostles haue no such custome It is further to be obserued that the Apostle speaks not of such points as by their being vnknown might endanger a mans saluatiō but of matters of lesse momēt cōcerning the orderly and decent cariage of things in the publick congregation This Chrysostome notes saying that the Apostle doth not vse thus kind of reproofe euery where but when the faults are not great But it is an exceeding great fault for a man not to acknowledge the truth of those points without beleefe whereof he cannot be saued Therefore in Chrysostome his iudgement the Apostle speaks not in that place of the want of such a faith as is so necessary a means to saluation as that without it a man cannot attaine thereunto A. D. CHAP. II. That this faith necessary to saluation is but one A. W. If the plainnesse pretended in the title of this booke had bene truly intended and performed we should not haue had the contents of this chapter so obscurely deliuered This faith necessarie to saluation is but one VVhat should a man make of these words An ordinarie Reader would thinke you meant that there is but one kinde of faith necessarie to saluation how easie had it bene for you to haue said so plainely to the capacitie of the simplest But it is a humor in men commonly to wonder at the depth of that they vnderstand not and these great schollers may not abase themselues to speake like vs of the meaner sort and yet a wise Philosopher said That a man should thinke as the wise doe but speake as the people doe But we must remember that in poperie there is most deuotion where there is least vnderstanding Well let vs take the words as they are once his meaning is as himselfe afterwards expresseth it that the beleefe of one man differeth not from the beleefe of another and that euerie faithfull man beleeueth euerie point for one and the same reason A. D. §. 1. This faith which I haue shewed to be absolutely necessarie to saluation is but One onely This is plainly prooued out of Saint Paul who saith Vnus Dominus vna fides vnum baptisma signifying that like as there is but one Lord and one Baptisme so there is but One faith A. W. Faith as I shewed before is taken sometimes for the habit vertue gift grace qualitie call it what you will whereby we haue power to beleeue sometimes for the points that are to be beleeued Here the question is of the former as any man would gather both by the title and by some of the proofes The first whereof is a place of Scripture There is one Lord one faith one baptisme of which I say first as of the whole Chapter that it might well haue bene spared considering that we acknowledge the truth of the matter in the same sense in which himselfe propoūds it Secondly I think it had bin a point of good iudgement to haue forborne the allegation of a text so insufficient for the purpose for the Apostle hath no meaning to shew by those words one faith that one mans beliefe taking faith for the inward quality differeth not from another mans but that all the beleeuing Ephesians and so all true Christians professe one and the same religion as they worship the same Lord and receiue the same baptisme and therefore ought to agree in peace one with another and not to make the gifts of God diuersly bestowed vpon diuers men an occasion of schisme and diuision This might you haue learned of Alphonsus Salmero a Iesuite who brings this place to proue that nownes that signifie qualities or habits are taken also for the obiects to which they appertaine as faith signifieth saith he the articles which are beleeued by faith according to that of Paul There is one faith The like hath Bellarmine By the name of faith saith he speaking of this place the obiect of faith seemes to be noted out So that the sense is we all beleeue the same thing as we haue bene all baptized after the same manner One faith saith Catharin because we beleeue one thing And this interpretation is acknowledged for good by Lombard Thomas and Caietane though they allow of the other also which notwithstanding I am the bolder to refuse because the places you bring out of the fathers agree better to the former exposition A. D. §. 2. The same is confirmed with the authoritie of the ancient Fathers Nisi vna est saith S. Leo Fides non est dicente Apostolo Vnus Dominus vna fides vnum baptisma Vnlesse it be one it is not faith sith the Apostle saith one Lord one faith one Baptisme A. W. Faith that is sound saith
Apostles because they spake immediatly by the direction of the spirit and therefore could not possibly erre in any point whereas all other men are subiect to error and their doctrine to examination ere it need be credited Secondly we must remember it doth not follow that if our Sauiour said whosoeuer beleeued not the Apostles should be damned then he that beleeues not the Ministers now in all they propound to be beleeued should be therefore liable to condemnatiō I haue stood the more vpon this proposition because the consequence being true may breed an error in the conceit of many if the reason of it be not truly vnderstood Your Assumption or minor is thus to be limited according to that which I before deliuered He that beleeues the Apostles spake immediatly by the inspiration of the spirit of God and yet doubts of the truth of some things they preached cannot without reforming this error be saued because he holds that the holy Ghost may inspire an vntruth No more can he that doth not beleeue they spake by such inspiration For of them our Sauiour hath absolutely said He that despiseth you despiseth me The second limitation is about the things themselues The ignorance of some points deliuered by the Apostles vtterly excludes a man out of heauen some other again may be vnknowne and a man notwithstanding that his ignorance be saued Therefore though our Sauiour except no point nor distinguish betwixt matters of doctrine yet the not beleeuing of some is no farther damnable then a man doth wilfully refuse to beleeue that which he confesseth to be truth in his heart or at the least in which he thinkes the Apostles were deceiued or which he despiseth as needlesse and so condemnes the wisedome of God in propounding it to be beleeued A. D. §. 3. And this not without reason for not to beleeue any one point whatsoeuer which God by reuealing it doth testifie to bee true and which by his Church he hath commaunded vs to beleeue must needs be damnable as being a notable iniurie to Gods veritie and a great disobedience to his will But all points of faith are thus testified by God and commaunded to be beleeued otherwise they be not points of faith but of opinion or some other kinde of knowledge Therefore all points of faith must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued beleeued I say eyther expresly and actually as learned men may doe or implicite and virtually as vnlearned Catholicks commonly doe who beleeuing expresly those articles which euerie one is bound particularly to know doe not in the rest obstinately doubt or hold some errour against the Church but haue a minde prepared to submit themselues in all things to the authoritie of the Church which they are sure is taught and directed by the spirit of God and doe in generall hold for vndoubted truth whatsoeuer the Catholicke or vniuersall Church doth beleeue A. W. Now followeth the second proofe of your assumption in this manner Euerie notable iniurie to Gods veritie and disobedience to his will is damnable But misbeleeuing or absolutely not beleeuing any one point reuealed by God and propounded by his Church to be beleeued is a notable iniurie to Gods veritie and a great disobedience to his will Therefore misbeleeuing or obstinately not beleeuing any one point reuealed by God and propounded by his Church to be beleeued is damnable To let passe this craftie conueyance whereby you still shuffle in the Church whereas without it the matter is as true and the proposition as perfect I answer to your assumption that all misbeleeuing or obstinately not beleeuing is not a notable iniurie to Gods truth nor a great disobedience to his will where it proceeds simply of ignorance and not of wilfulnesse except in such cases as I shewed in the end of the last section which I speake not to excuse any man as if he did not sinne in misbeleeuing or as if there were some sinne not deadly according to your erroneous conceit but onely to distinguish notable iniuries and great disobedience from some kinde of misbeleeuing The conclusion is thus to be conceiued That misbeleeuing is in it selfe damnable not that no man can be saued which misbeleeueth This distinction of beleeuing expresly and implicitly as you terme it confirmes part of that which I haue hitherto said for by your confession there are some points to the beleefe whereof a general faith will not serue the turne but a man must know the particulars and assent actually to the truth of them For example it is not enough for a man to beleeue in grosse that he must be saued by such meanes onely as God hath reuealed and the Church hath propounded to be beleeued but it is absolutely necessarie to saluation that he know what the Church holdeth in this case concerning redemption by our Sauiour Christ and in his heart acknowledge the truth thereof Againe there are many other points which so a man neglect not the meanes to know them may be vnknowne and beleeued onely in generall without danger of damnation by reason of such ignorance Now this generall beleefe is not as you falsely say to be folded vp in the faith of the Church but to be tied to the Scripture all things wherein I acknowledge to be most true and beleeue all points whatsoeuer as they are eyther expressed or contained in Scripture howsoeuer I be ignorant what is true touching perhaps very many particulars To the authoritie of the Church I willingly submit my selfe thus farre as that I hold it a sinfull presumption for me or any man eyther to compare my priuate opinion with the generall iudgement of other Christians especially Ministers or to condemne or suspect that of falshood which they deliuer vnlesse I haue apparent proofe for the one and great likelihood for the other In which cases I set not my owne conceit against the doctrine of the Church but preferre the truth of God before the opinions of men As for any infallible authoritie in the Church vpon supposall of such a certaine direction by the spirit of God I hold it neither for true nor probable as shall appeare hereafter In the meane while I desire the Reader to consider these few testimonies cōcerning the authority of men Other writers saith Austin I reade with this prouiso that be their learning or holinesse neuer so great I will not thinke a matter true because they haue thought so but because they haue bene able to perswade me eyther by other Canonicall writers or by some likely reason In an other place We may not consent to Bishops though they be Catholicke if at any time they be deceiued so that they iudge contrarie to the Canonicall Scripture of God Of necessitie saith Origen must we call for the testimonie of the Scriptures for our senses and declarations without them as witnesses haue no credit And this charge Basil layeth vpon vs that when we heare we examine
Peter as we heard Bellarmine say signifieth no more but that God keepes no man from being saued but hath vouchsafed the word and sacraments in common to all Your Glosse restraines that Any to them that are to be conuerted that is to the elect That other which are to be conuerted may be conuertea Thomas and Holkot interprete it de voluntate signi of that wil of God which we may gather by the signes he sheweth as for example God calleth all men from danger of damnation by precepts counsels threatnings rewards These are signes to vs that God would haue all men to be saued but there is another will called volunt as beneplaciti the good pleasure of God which is indeed truly that which God intendeth Thomas addeth also a second exposition out of Damascen but it can proue nothing because it cannot be necessarily enforced out of the text rather then the other which is also more warrantable for the truth of it as I will shew another time vpon more iust occasion if it please God Caietan alledgeth three seuerall interpretations that of Damascens a second of All kind of men whereof before and a third of the elect which also he doth exemplifie in the person of Peter Thus I haue shewed that the maine foundation you build vpon is but weak wanting ground of warrant from the word of God But admit it were neuer so true that God would haue euery man to be saued which in some sense as I haue said indeed is most true yet were not the consequence of your proposition proued For there might be sufficient meanes for euery mans saluation though there were no meanes to bring him to that same one infallible entire faith which you conceit but onely to so much faith and knowledge as is necessary to saluation by which he might be sufficiently instructed in matters of faith which is all that you craftily seeme to require in the conclusion of this section whereas before in your proposition no lesse would serue the turne then infallible instruction in all points questions and doubts of faith A. D. §. 2. To this purpose saith S. Austin Si Dei prouidentia praesidet rebus humanis non est desperandum ab eodem ipso Deo auctoritatem aliquam constitutam esse qua velut certo gradu nitentes attollamur in Deum If Gods prouidence saith he rule and gouerne humane matters as he proueth that it doth we may not despaire but that there is a certain authoritie appointed by the same God vpon which staying our selues as vpon a sure step we may be lifted vp to God Saint Austin therefore doth acknowledge some authoritie to be needfull as a meanes whereby we may be lifted vp to God The which lifting vp to God is first begun by true faith And because this authoritie is so needfull a meanes he would not haue vs doubt but that God whose prouidence stretcheth it selfe to all humane matters hath not failed to prouide this meanes for vs it being a principal matter and so principall as vpon which according to the ordinary course dependeth the summe of our saluation We are not therefore I say to doubt but that Almghtie God hath prouided a meanes whereby Animalis homo qui non percipit ea que sunt spiritus Dei a sensuall man who hath no vnderstanding of the diuine mysteries of faith may come to know them by a firme and infallible beleefe A. W. To what purpose doth Saint Austine bring this To proue that God hath appointed a rule by which all men may come to your infallible faith Nothing lesse but to shew that where truth is not euident as to men ordinarily it is not there God hath prouided meanes to stirre them vp to a diligent enquiry after it or rather as he plainly affirmeth to a ridding of themselues of the cares and pleasures of this life which he cals purging of the soule that so they may be fit to embrace the truth Authoritie saith Austin is at hand for a man that is not able to discerne the truth that he may be fitted to it and suffer himselfe to be purged What is this authoritie what is the vse of it Miracles multitude make vp this authoritie whereby men not able to see truth in it self are moued to a reuerend respect of the Church so to an examination of the doctrine which vpon triall is found true Thus doth the wisedome of God prouide for mens ignorance that authoritie of miracles and multitude may draw them to a consideration of the truth which whensoeuer it shewes it selfe so plainly that it cannot be doubted of is to be preferred before all other meanes of perswading a man to beleeue or holding him in beleefe whatsoeuer as the same Austin saith we denie not these to be good helpes and strong meanes to the searching and finding of the truth but to be sufficient and infallible grounds of religion that a man should relie vpon them without trying the doctrine by the truth of God reuealed in the Scriptures It is indeed out of doubt among Christians that God hath prouided some meanes by which a naturall man whom you absurdly call sensuall whereas the Apostle meaneth a man in his best natural estate since his fal who cānot discerne of Gods truth nor admit of it may come to the knowledge thereof Because it was impossible saith Irenaeus to learne God without God he teacheth men by his word his sonne to know God It is he that hath vouchsafed vs this knowledge by the ministery of men worke of the spirit in their hearts that beleeue according to the word of God in the Scriptures Let vs not heare saith Austin This I say This thou sayest but let vs heare This saith the Lord there are the Lords bookes extant to the authoritie whereof both of vs consent both of vs giue credit both of vs obey there let vs seeke the Church there let vs discusse our question Other meanes of triall then by the Scripture he accounteth and calleth deceitfull The Scriptures are the bounds of the Church beyond which she may not wander Whatsoeuer any man since the Apostles hath seene without warrant of Scripture let him be neuer so holy neuer so eloquent it is of no authoritie but onely to mooue vs to a consideration of that he saith A. D. §. 3. Onely the question is what manner of thing this meanes must be and where euerie man must seeke and finde it that hauing found it he may as S. Austen speaketh stay himselfe vpon it as vpon a sure step thereby to be lifted vp to a true faith and by faith to God The which question being of so great consequence that it being well determined a man need neuer make more question in matters of faith I wil God willing in the chapters following endeuor to resolue it as clearely as I can And this I purpose to do first by
If it belong to the spirit how is the presence of Christ applied therunto But to answer directly to the place thus you dispute If Christ haue promised to be with a companie of men till the end of the world then he hath promised it that he might teach the Church all truth But he hath promised to be with a companie of men till the end of the world Therefore he hath promised it that he might teach them all truth Admit all this were granted yet would it not follow hereupon that the Church therefore could not erre because as I answered before perhaps they would not haue care to learne and remember all though our Sauiour were readie to teach them all I denie the consequence of your proposition First because they to whom our Sauiour maketh this promise are not the Church as you vnderstand the Church that is the Cleargie of whose teaching you wholy speake but the faithfull ioyntly and seuerally as well hearers as teachers as well euery one as all together This appeareth by the text Go teach all nations c. and behold I am with you till the end of the world With whom With you that teach only Nay rather with al beleeuers for all which he praied as well as for the teachers So haue the ancient writers expounded and vnderstood this place He doth not say he will be with them onely saith Chrysostome but also with all that shall beleeue after them For the Apostles were not to continue to the end of the world but he speaketh to the faithfull as to one bodie Christ sheweth saith Jerome that he will neuer depart from them that beleeue So doth Cyprian make it common to all beleeuers that confesse the truth of God in time of triall So doth Leo to all that are adopted He that is gone vp into Heauen saith Leo doth not forsake them that are adopted So Beda he remaineth with his elect in this world protecting thē To which purpose S. Austin saith that this promise is fulfilled by our Sauiour in that he is present according to his maiestie according to his prouidence according to his vnspeakable and inuisible grace With all that beleeue saith Gaudentius I will be with you that is saith Denys the Charterhouse monke with you and your successors and with all the faithfull or militant Church And thereupon he gathereth that the faith shall neuer wholy faile but Christian religion shall continue in some till the end of the world The like collection Rabanus maketh Hereby saith he it is vnderstood that there shall neuer be some wanting till the ende of the world who shall be worthie or fit for God to dwell in The Councell of Vienna as Gregorie de Valentia saith expounded the place of Christ being present in the Sacrament which is common to all beleeuers lib. 3. Clement de relique vener sanctorum c. si Dominum Secondly the consequence is naught because the ende of Christs presence is not to teach the Church all truth but to protect and defend them by his power in the profession of the truth So it is applied as we heard before by Cyprian to the comfort of the Christians then imprisoned for religion So doth Austin take it that he is present by his prouidence and diuine Maiestie The same is Haymo his iudgement and exposition But Martialis is most plaine who by this promise exhorteth thē of Tholouse in France to perseuere in the profession of religion because our Sauiour Christ will neuer leaue thē but alwaies be present with them He confirmeth and encourageth them saith Theophylact because he sent them to the Gentiles into dangers and hazards of their liues And Chrysostome thinketh wherein also Theophyl secondeth him that our Sauiour mentioneth the end of the world because he would haue them with more patience and constancy endure what soeuer hard measure for a time vpon earth in regard of the ioyes whereof they should be made partakers in the world to come If then this promise of our Sauiour belong to all euery true beleeuer if it be vttered for the comfort of all such that they may rest vpon his mighty protection who seeth not that an impossibilitie of your Cleargies erring cannot be concluded from it 1 The places of Iohn are thus to be concluded If our Sauiour haue promised the spirit of truth to a certain company of men to abide with thē for euer teach thē all truth then the teaching of these men is an assured ground of faith But Christ hath promised the spirit so to a certain cōpany of men Therfore the teaching of these men is an assured ground of faith First I answer that your conclusion proueth not the point in question because this companie to which the promise is made is not the Church from time to time but that promise belongeth to the Apostles either onely or at the least principally in such a measure of being taught The former may thus appeare because our Sauiour speaketh of another comforter in respect of his owne bodily departure from them which cannot belong to the Church now with which Christ was neuer present in that sort Secondly this spirit promised was to bring all things that Christ had taught to their remembrance whom he should teach But this cannot belong to the present Church nor to any Church since the Apostles Thirdly this sending of the spirit was performed when the holy Ghost came vpon the Apostles which doth not befall the Church now a dayes Fourthly the same spirit was to shew them the things to come either concerning themselues in particular or by giuing them the gift of prophesie which now the Church hath not Thus do Tertullian and Austin vnderstand these places applying them to the Apostles so doth Iansenius bishop of Gaunt so Chrysostome and Theophylact so your ordinary Glosses and Lyra. And whereas this interpretation may seeme to be refuted by the place it selfe because the spirit must abide with them to whom he is promised for euer that is expounded by Chrysostome to signifie his continuance with them euen after death also Which Theophylact sets out more at large His companie with you saith our Sauiour shall not be for a time as mine but shall continue for euer neither shall it faile when you are dead but shall remaine with you and shall make you more glorious He promiseth saith your Glosse that the spirit shall do all not that all is fulfilled in this life This Comforter saith Lyra shall not be taken from you as my humane nature is drawne away by death but shall be with you eternally here by grace but in the world to come by glorie We may perhaps conceiue our Sauiours meaning to be no more but that the spirit which hee would send should not leaue them as he was to do but should abide
the Church to preach to all nations For your Church is as I haue said your Bb. assembled in Councel not your Clergie men seuerally one by one And it is not our Sauiors meaning to haue such a kind of teaching A. D. §. 6. The warrant we haue in S. Luke Qui vos audit me audit He that heareth you heareth me By which words appeareth plainly that our Sauior Christ would haue vs to heare and giue credit to his church no lesse then to himselfe A. W Our Sauiour by this place hath warranted all men to heare them that teach those things which hee commaunded to be taught besides which if any man teach his owne fancies for matters of faith that of the Apostle belongeth to him Let him be accursed The Apostles were absolutely to be heard without exceptiō as Christ himself all other teachers only so far as they speake according to the word of God He teacheth by this saith Cyril that whatsoeuer the holy Apostles deliuer is to be receiued because he that heareth them heareth Christ Our Sauiour addeth this in the end saith Lyra to shew that the doctrine of his disciples is deuoutly and reuerently to be heard at the least for reuerence of God whose principally that doctrine is But what doth this concerne the church Surely if it may be enforced to make vs heare any besides the Apostles without limiting of our hearing we are bound so to heare at the least euery B. These words saith Bellarmine belong properly to the Apostles and to their successors neither may it be said that this was spoken to all of them ioyntly and not to euery one seuerally Now if it be absurd and worse to hold that we haue warrant to heare euery B. whatsoeuer he teach doubtlesse this place proueth nothing for hearing the Church For by vertue of this speech the Apostles were to be heard without any exception If then it belong to their successors which are as you say Bb. as fully as to them euery B. must be heard and beleeued teach he what he wil. I wil yet say more our Sauior speaketh this of the 72. disciples and of euery two of them at the least Now your opinion is that your ordinary Priests succeed them as Bishops do the Apostles Hence it will follow that whatsoeuer any two Priests preach that must be holden for as certaine a truth as if Christ himselfe had spoken it Do you not see then that this must needs be restrained either to the Apostles or to the doctrine taught He that heareth you preaching that which I haue charged you to preach heareth me So doth your Glosse limit the latter part of the sentence He that despiseth you that is He that will not beleeue in Christ Indeed he that refuseth to beleeue in Christ by the ministerie of men refuseth Christ himselfe whose doctrine it is that we should beleeue in him Therfore your minor is false also in regard of the third part thereof We haue no warrant to heare any man the Apostles being dead but so farre onely as he agreeth with the Scriptures A. D. §. 7. The commandement is expressed in S. Mathew Super Cathedram Moysi sederunt Scribae Pharisaei Omnia ergo quaecunque dixerint vobis seruate facite The Scribes and Pharisies haue sitten vpon the chaire of Moses All things therefore whatsoeuer they shall say vnto you obserue and do Out of which words we may gather that we are bound in all points to do according to the doctrine of the Prelates of the Catholicke Church yea although it should happen that their liues were not laudable but bad For although our Sauiour in this place doth onely in expresse words make mention of the chaire of Moses in which the Priests of the old Law did sit yet he is to be vnderstood to speake also of the chaire of S. Peter his owne Vicegerent in which the Priests of the new law do succeed And this à fortiori because we haue greater reason to thinke that our Sauiour intended in his doctrine to giue rules to the Priests and people of his new law which was presently to begin and to continue till the worlds end then onely to giue documents to those of the old Law considering he knew that it should so shortly cease Wherefore the auncient fathers do vnderstand that place to be meant of the Priests of the new Law and namely S. Augustine who saith thus In illum ordinem Episcoporum qui ducitur ab ipso Petro ad Anastasium qui nunc in eadem Cathedra sedet etiamsi quisquam traditor per illa tempora subrepsisset nihil praeiudicaret Ecclesiae innocentibus Christianis quibus prouidens Dominus ait de praepositis malis quae dicunt facite quae faciunt facere nolite Into that order of Bishops which is deriued from S. Peter himselfe vnto Anastasius who now sitteth vpon the same chaire although some traitor had crept in in those times he should nothing hurt the Church and the innocent Christians for whom our Lord prouiding saith of euill Prelates What they say do what they do do not A. W. This is the only point which is able to make good the consequence of your proposition and therefore if you faile in the proofe of this all is naught But out of doubt you faile here exceedingly and so your reason comes to nothing He that commaunds the Iewes to do whatsoeuer the Scribes and Pharisies who sit vpon Moses chaire say bindeth all to do in all things according to the saying of the Church But our Sauiour so commandeth the Iewes Therefore he bindeth all to do in all things according to the saying of the Church First I say of this syllogisme as of the two last points that if it giue any authoritie to your Church it giueth the same to euery particular teacher For the Scribes and Pharises did expound the law of Moses not in Councels onely but euery one seuerally in the synagogues where they were appointed to teach Therefore if it be absurd to conclude vpon this text that euery Scribe and Pharisey was then and euery Preacher lawfully called is now to be heard whatsoeuer he teach sure no such matter can be wrung out of this place for the Church Secondly this reason maketh the Scribes and Pharises the Church shutting out the high Priest himselfe and all other priests that were not either Scribes or Pharises yea it presumeth which is vtterly false that the Scribes and Pharises were successors to Moses in an ordinarie course of authoritie as you say your Church that is your Pope and Bb. succeed Peter and the rest of the Apostles Can such an argument proue a matter of such importance and doubt Your proposition implieth that our Sauiour intended to giue rules concerning Saint Peters authoritie whom you call his Vicegerent Who wold trifle so in a questiō of such weight First proue his office and your Popes
right to it and then frame such arguments otherwise any man of neuer so little iudgment may find more cause to pity or disdaine your proofe or presumption then to stagger at the force of your reason All things in the Scripture were indeed writtē for our learning and therfore belong to vs so far as the general doctrine reacheth the particular circumstances are alike Wherefore I grant your proposition not because of any succession which could not be in those Scribes and Pharises being of diuers tribes and as your Genebrard saith hauing thrust themselues into the chaire of Moses being empty but because they expoūded the law of Moses among the Iewes as the Ministers of Christ do the Gospell at this day to the Christians Ere I answer to your Assumption I must speake a word of your translation haue sitten The Greeke indeed is so but as Vatablus noteth the praeter tense is put for the present tense Therefore Pagnine doubteth not so to translate it sedent sit Which must needs be our Sauiours meaning For how were it agreeable to reason that he should charge vs to heare the Scribes and the Pharises because they did sometimes sit vpon Moses chaire if now they sit beside it It is our Sauiours purpose to signifie that the expositions of the former Pharisies and of those that taught in his time were not to be reiected or rather it is al one as if he had said do sit But let vs reade the place which way we list it is all one to your minor which I denie To the proofe of it out of the text I answer First the sitting vpon Moses chaire signifieth not succession but teaching the law of Moses For Moses calling was altogether extraordinarie from God both for gouerning and teaching In the former Iosua and the Iudges succeeded him till the people were wearie of Gods ruling of them The other part of his office was to be discharged ordinarily by the Priests and Leuits That ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the Lord hath commaunded them by the hand of Moses The Priests lips should preserue knowledge and they should seeke the Law at his mouth Ieshua and Bani c. and the Leuites caused the people to vnderstand the law And they read in the booke of the Law of God distinctly and gaue the sense and caused them to vnderstand the reading It was one thing to succeed Aaron another to sit on Moses chaire The chaire of Moses saith Cyril signifieth power of doctrine They sit in Moses chaire saith Origen which interprete Moses sayings well and according to reason And a little after The Scribes and Pharises sit naughtily vpon Moses chaire they sat wel that well vnderstood the law What is the meaning of that saith Ambrose The Scribes sat but because letters are written whereupon the Scribes in Greeke are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 following the interpretation of the letter not the sense of the spirit And afterward Therefore they teaching those things that Moses wrote c. So doth Theophylact expound it They that sit in Moses chaire that is that teach the things that are in the law And immediately before They that exhort to euill life do not then teach out of Moses chaire nor out of the Law Therefore to sit vpon Moses chaire is nothing else but to haue authoritie to expound Moses Law as he himselfe did expound it So the Ministers of the Gospell may be said to sit vpon the Apostles chaire because they haue authority to interpret the Gospel which the Apostles themselues preached Secondly I denie that our Sauiour commanded the Iewes or doth now charge vs to beleeue whatsoeuer they that haue authority to teach vs deliuer or to do whatsoeuer they enioyne This is apparent because himselfe refuteth condemneth their interpretations and doctrines many times as Mat. 5. In many points of which that one is most cleare Ye haue heard that it hath bene said thou shalt loue thy neighbour hate thine enemie but I say vnto you loue your enemies c. In vaine do they worship me teaching for doctrines mens traditions And in the same place he calleth them blinde leaders of the blind and addeth further that if the blinde lead the blinde both fall into the ditch Now can any man be so impious I might say blasphemous as to say that our Sauiour commaunded the Iewes to take such a course as should certainely bring them to destruction Nay rather he warneth them to take heed of their doctrine Take heed and beware he doubleth his admonition to make them more carefull of the leauen of the Pharises And what was this leauen The doctrine of the Pharises saith the Euangelist But what need we go out of this chapter for the point in question Doth he not afterwards call them blinde guides vers 16. 24. fooles blind vers 17. 19 Doth he not in the same places condemne and confute their absurd and lewde doctrine of swearing A man would wonder that euer any man professing himselfe a scholler or teacher should bring such miserable proofes in matters of so great weight But alasse we must beare with you you bring such as you haue if you knew any better we should be sure to haue them But these serue to deceiue your deuoted followers who wilfully shut their eies against the truth The iudgements of God are past searching out and his mercie in opening our eies to see your grossnesse greater then we are able to conceiue Well yet perhaps you haue some colour from antiquitie to countenance your exposition withall You quote Austin what None but Austin in a matter of so great doubt But let vs see why you quote him If to prooue that the Pharisies were to be heard and obeyed in all things there is no such word in his sentence alledged by you For he saith no more then we grant that Our Sauiour prouided before hand that we should not refuse good doctrine because it was deliuered by wicked men Indeed that was the verie purpose of our Sauiour and to that doth Austin apply it otherwhere according to the true sense of it What saith he else but heare the voice of the sheepheard though by hirelings such as Austin in that place saith the Pharifies and Scribes were and such as our Sauiour proueth them to be by their hypocrisie ambition couetousnesse The Apostle sheweth saith Austin in an other place that men without charitie may teach somewhat that is wholsome of such our Lord speaketh They sit vpon Moses chaire c. Whereupon also the Apostle speaking of enuious and malitious men yet such as preached saluation by Christ saith Whether by occasion or in truth Christ be preached Ireioice And in a third place He that speaketh wisely and eloquently but liueth wickedly teacheth many that are desirous
maintained The Philosophers indeed as Thomas saith had a kind of notion of some points thereof but they had no certaintie as well because they were corrupted with errors as for that very few of them are found to haue agreed in the same truth But in the Church is certaine knowledge and truth Which as Caietan saith is vpheld aloft in it because it is auowed reuerenced and honored aboue all things and it is so founded in the Church that out of it it is not to be found This is the reason as they truly say why the Church is called a pillar Thomas addeth that it is termed the ground in respect of others because men cannot be confirmed in the truth but by the sacraments of the Church This testimonie of Austine is alledged by you otherwise then it was written by him For whereas he spake of that which had then alreadie bene resolued of by the whole Church you make him speake indefinitely of any thing that pleaseth the Church turning iam placuit into placet But we must vnderstand that he writing in that place concerning the rebaptizing of heretickes which question had bene agreed vpon as he saith in the former chapter before the hatching of Donatus heresie saith that the iudgement of the Church in that case is to be held as agreeable to the Scripture This might the Reader haue seene in his words if you had not changed the tense in placet and left out etiam in hac re in the beginning of the sentence The truth of the Scriptures saith Austin is held by vs euen in this thing If you reply farther that the reason which Austin vseth is generall for all questions whatsoeuer namely the authoritie of the Church commended by the Scriptures which cannot erre I answer you first that we haue seene Austins iudgement directly to the contrary viz. that whatsoeuer is of necessitie to saluation is plainly deliuered in the Scriptures and that the authoritie of men without Scripture is insufficient to propound any doctrine as a matter of faith and therefore if he should write otherwise in this place we might with good reason make question of his authoritie Secondly I answer that Austine speaketh here of those points onely which are not determinable by Scripture such as he taketh the question of rebaptizing heretickes to be as it appeareth in the words immediatly before those you alledge being also a peece of the sentence by you omitted Although saith Austin there be no example to be brought out of the Scriptures concerning this matter yet the truth of the same Scriptures is euen in this matter also held by vs when we do that which hath now alreadie pleased the whole Church c. Now in such cases as cannot by Scripture be decided who would or may be so presumptuous as to withstand or mislike the practise of the church in all places Surely the authoritie of the church is so far commended in the Scriptures that it ought in all things of such nature to ouerweigh our iudgement and incline our affection to the liking of that which is agreed on by so generall a consent of so many churches in all nations Therefore that which you gather out of Austins words of following the iudgement of the church in an obscure question is to be restrained to such questions as cannot be determined by the Scriptures and those are few or none of any importance of necessitie to saluation none at all or else your consequence will be nothing worth Austin saith that in questions not determinable by Scripture we must follow the iudgement of the church Therefore we must follow it in all obscure questions whatsoeuer Austins foundation will not beare your building Is it a good reason to say In cases not prouided for by law custome must beare sway therfore it must be followed in all cases So and so weakly do you dispute It is not enough for you to teach vs new diuinitie but you will driue vs to learne new Latin too Caesar could make men free of Rome but not words Credere Ecclesiam Catholicam to beleeue the Catholicke Church in ordinary Latin is to beleeue that there is a Catholicke Church Credo esse I beleeue there is but you would make the ignorant beleeue that credo Ecclesiam and credo Ecclesiae is all one For how else can this sentence reasonably depend vpon the former We must follow the iudgement of the Church Therfore worthily also do we all say Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam What can you meane by this but I beleeue that is I giue credit to the Catholick Church that is I beleeue that to be true which the Catholicke Church teacheth But the article of the Creed hath no such sense as it may appeare by the other that follow all being alike in respect of our beleefe I beleeue the communion of Saints the forgiuenesse of sinnes the resurrection of the bodie and life euerlasting To which of these foure dowe giue any such credit But we beleeue that there is a Church of Christ to which all these priuiledges belong He that translated Epiphanius into Latin more curiously then truly made a difference betwixt beleeuing the church and the other articles We beleeue saith he one holy Catholicke and Apostolicke Church we confesse one baptisme for the forgiuenesse of sinnes and looke for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come But the Greeke which Epiph. reciteth out of the Nicene creed is alike in all the articles in the Church in the baptisme of repentance in the resurrection of the dead And Paschasius doubteth not to say that the ignorance of some drew the preposition in from the former sentence concerning beleefe in the holy Ghost into the article of the church yet as he sheweth credere Deum in Deum greatly differ That there is a God the Apostle saith the diuel beleeueth but no mā is held to beleeue in God but he that religiously puts his trust in him Cyril also reciteth the articles after the same manner without any difference in the particulars yet with In to euerie one of them and in that sense in which we take them Ruffin as Paschasius before denieth that the Creed saith In the holy Church in the forgiuenesse of sinnes in the resurrection of the flesh Because that were to equall our beleefe of these points with our beleeuing in the Father the Son and the holy Ghost But of these articles we are to beleeue that they are true that there is a Church gathered vnto God that there is a remission of sinnes that there is a resurrection of the flesh So doth Austin if those Sermons be his read and vnderstand it I beleeue the Catholicke Church c. We must beleeue that God will vouchsafe the resurrection of bodies and the forgiuenesse of sinnes And whereas in an other Sermon he saith in the Church so doth he
time for all men know it erred in diuers though not fundamentall if we may gesse by the writings of the learned in those ages or that the Church hath or shall want the performance of Christs promise at any time for a moment But what is all this to the matter we haue in hand Well Let vs see yet what you say A. D. §. 2. Against these men I set downe this assertion The true Church of Christ which the forenamed testimonies of Scripture do commend was and is to continue without interruption till the worlds end This I prooue First out of the verie words of those promises which I cited out of Saint Matthew and Saint Iohn For how can Christ our Sauiour or his holy Spirit be with his Church in such sort as there is promised to wit till the worlds end and for euer and especially as is said in Saint Matthew Omnibus diebus vsque ad consummationem seculi All the daies euen to the end of the world vnlesse the Church also be all the daies vntill the end of the world For if the Church for any time daies monthes or years doe cease to be Christ cannot for these yeares moneths and daies be truly said to be with his Church sith he cannot be with that which is not and consequently he cannot be said to haue fulfilled his promise wherein he said he would be with his Church all the daies vntill the end of the world A. W. The men against whom you set downe this Assertion are of your owne making that you might haue against whom to shew your valour once it cannot concerne vs who acknowledge the continuance of Christs Church without interruption till the worlds end As long as these times shall run on saith Austin the Church of God that is the bodie of Christ shall not be wanting vpon earth This is the Church spoken of in as many of these testimonies as are not peculiar to the Apostles namely the elect from time to time not your Romish synagogue wherein many of the reprobate also are included and that as members of your congregation who cannot without dishonour of our Sauiour Christ be accounted parts of his glorious bodie The truth of your Assertion needeth no proofe and the weaknesse of your proofe is a disgrace to your Assertion Christ will be with his Church at all times whensoeuer there are any that beleeue in him not onely whilest the Apostles liue therefore there shall alwaies be some in the world without interruption that shall beleeue in him This is but a loose consequence I grant the conclusion or consequent that there shall be a Church alwaies but I denie that therefore there shall alwaies be one because our Sauiour promiseth to be with it whensoeuer it is Put case our Sauiour had thus spoken I will be with you in your persecution all the daies euen to the end of the world might a man reasonably conclude from hence that therfore the Church shall be alwaies persecuted without any interruption or ease one day from persecution Such is your consequence and as such insufficient to prooue your Assertion A. D. §. 3. Secondly I prooue the same out of an other promise or prophesie of our Sauiour Christ to his Church wherein he saith Portae inferninon praeualebunt aduersus eam the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it For how was it true that the gates of hel shall not preuaile if they haue preuailed so much as vtterly to abolish the Church or at least to banish it quite out of the world for so long a time Granting therfore which euery Christiā must needs grant that the prophesies promises of our Sauiour are alwaies fulfilled and that they are vnfallibly true we may not doubt but that the church hath euer bene since Christ his time and shal neuer cease to be in the world A. W. This proofe is little or nothing better then the former thus you conclude If Christ haue promised that the gates of hell shal not preuaile against his Church then it must continue without interruption till the worlds end But Christ hath promised that the gates of hell shal not preuaile against it Therefore it must continue without interruption till the worlds end I denie the consequence of your maior first because the Church in this place doth not signifie such a companie of men as you by that name vnderstand but the congregation of the elect who by true faith confesse as Peter did and being built vpon our Sauiour the rocke shal neuer be remoued and perish And this promise is made not onely to all ioyntly but to euery one seuerally as it was to Peter and all the rest of the Apostles If there be any saith Origen against whom the gates of hell shall preuaile such a one is neither the rocke vpon which Christ buildeth nor the Church which is built by Christ vpon the rocke Euerie one saith the same Origen that is a follower of Christ by imitation is a rocke or stone But he against whom the gates of hell preuaile is neither to be counted a rocke nor the Church nor part of the Church which Christ builds vpon the rocke Againe whosoeuer is Christs disciple saith the same author is a rocke but many are called and few chosen As if he should haue said that the Church against which the gates of hell shall not preuaile is euery one of the elect and that he against whom those gates do preuaile is none of the elect or church to which that promise of our Sauiour was made Theophylact though he expound the place of the Church somewhat generally yet hee doubteth not to adde that euery one of vs also is the church which is the house of God if therefore we be confirmed in the confession of Christ the gates of hell that is sinnes shall not preuaile against vs. The gates of hell saith your Glosse are sinnes threatnings flatterings heresies whereby they that are weake runne into destruction who are not to be thought to haue built the house of their profession of beleeuing soundly vpon the rocke but vpon the sand that is to follow Christ with a simple and true intent but to haue made a shew for some earthly respect For he that receiueth the faith of Christ with the inward loue of his heart easily ouercometh whatsoeuer outwardly befalleth him Lyra saith that the church here spoken of consisteth of those persons in whō there is true knowledge confessiō of the faith truth not of any men in respect of their power or dignity ecclesiasticall or ciuill because many Princes Popes and other inferiour Christians are found to haue made Apostasie from the faith Luke of Bruges though he will not haue this promise of victorie belong to euery particular member of the church yet he granteth that euery liuing member thereof stedfastly cleauing vnto it may conceiue good hope of triumphing
the iudgement of the learned who teach that profession of faith is sometimes necessarie to saluation Now for answer to your proofes I say as before that the two former concerne especially the denying either of religion in generall or some speciall truth in question when the Lord as it were calleth vs out to professe and auouch it as he did the Apostles in that place by sending them abroad to preach the Gospell If you saith our Sauiour in effect or any other minister shall forbeare to discharge your duties by preaching my truth and maintaining it if you be called in question for it I will neuer acknowledge you for mine in the kingdome of heauen The Apostles calling necessarily required preaching of the word and for them to haue failed in that dutie for feare or shame or otherwise had bene to denie their Lord and master Yet were they not so tied to this dutie that they must needs continue their publicke preaching in those places where persecution was raised against them but they might flee from one Citie to another and yet not be counted to denie the Lord Iesus As for the Churches that were gathered by the Apostles preaching there is neither charge nor reason to be shewed why they should bewray themselues to their persecutors by open practise of religion in the eies of the world Indeed the worship of God is not to be neglected though we cannot performe it without manifest daunger of our liues but there is no necessitie to worship God publickly where the truth is persecuted Therefore did the anciēt Christiās in such places assemble as secretly as they could neither leauing the exercises of religion for feare nor by an incōsiderate zeal hazarding their own liues To denie Christ is not to conceale himselfe frō persecutors but being found by them to renounce his profession and so is the place ordinarily applied by Cyprian the Clergie of Rome and Tertullian men enough fauouring martyrdome Yea Tertullian in that verie booke wherein he labours to prooue that it is not lawfull for a man to flie in time of persecution yet aduiseth men to hold their assemblies for the exercises of religion in the night time if they cannot haue them conueniently in the day Theophylact expoundeth this confession and deniall of acknowledging or denying Christ to be God Brugensis somewhat more particularly He that denieth me to be his Lord and Sauiour that he beleeueth in me that he sticketh fast to me and my doctrine So doth Iansenius vnderstandit though he stretch it also to the denying of Christ by wicked conuersation The denying of Christs name saith Lyra is alwaies a mortall sinne Not to confesse or be silent concerning it is sometimes a mortall sinne As if a man be silent when he is asked of it If he professe it being not asked it is a worke of supererogation Doth any of these or any man else conclude the visibilitie of the Church from these or the like places of Scripture No man is to denie our Sauiour nor to be ashamed of his truth What then Therefore must they that beleeue in Christ openly make profession thereof at all times without any wisedome of the Serpent for their owne preseruation or else can they not be saued A cruell and foolish conceit This proofe is to as little purpose as the former Confession by mouth is required to saluation therefore outward profession of faith is at all times necessarie Who sees not the weaknesse of this cōsequence Doth not he confesse with mouth that ioynes himselfe to some knowen Church of Christ and communicates with them ordinarily in the outward worship of God though all the world know not there are any such beleeuers professors yea though the people among whom they liue be not priuie to their meetings and profession There may be occasion for a man or a Church to manifest themselues vnto the world and they that in such a time shall faile can looke for no mercie at the hands of God without true and earnest repentance But this prooues not that therefore the Churches must make such publicke profession that they may at all times be knowen to all men To perswade vs of the former wherein there is no doubt you tell vs that Learned men autors in the aire as one of your side saith in the like case interprete this place to signifie that profession of faith is sometimes necessarie Who euer denied it But doth any learned man say that therefore the Church must alwaies make such profession That is the point in question and of that you are as dumbe as a fish yea do you not perceiue that your learned men refute that conceit Doth not he that expoundeth that place of necessitie at sometimes denie that it requireth such necessitie at all times It is necessarie saith Frier Soto for a righteous man that he may obtaine euerlasting life to confesse his faith with his mouth wheresoeuer the time necessarily required by this precept offers it selfe Catharin your Bishop speaketh yet more plaine Such confession namely that a man confesse with his mouth that which he beleeueth in his heart as he expounded himselfe a little before is not alwaies required but as Thomas saith according to the time and place And indeed so Thomas saith adding withall that Affirmatiue commaundements binde at all times but require not performance at all times Your interlinear and ordinarie Glosses and Lombard restraine it to the time of persecution or at least when the truth is called in question Caietan makes this when more generall but signifieth that this confession is not at all times necessarie As for the times when it is to be held for necessarie your learned men do somewhat more particularly deliuer the point then you report it Confession of Gods truth quoth Sotus and therein he followth Thomas is necessarie vpon paine of losing saluation either when it is required by a persecutor of the faith which confession the martyrs made with their bloud or when it is necessarie for those that belong to our charge by danger of heresie likely to ensue which dutie of confession properly concerneth Prelates c. These occasions haue many times bene offered and accordingly many professors of that truth which wee now maintaine haue with the shedding of their bloud giuen testimonie of the Gospell against the errours and tyrannie of your Antichristian Prelates Those holy martyrs who from time to time haue bene butchered by your Synagogue of Sathan were of the same Church with vs howsoeuer they saw not the truth of God in many points so clearely as it hath pleased him to reueale it to vs by the ministerie of his seruants in these latter dayes If they vsed their best discretion and endeuours to hide themselues as much as might be from your furie they did no more then the light of nature and
you make In particular I denie your Minor The Church we speake of is not compared to any such things The Church saith Austin which groweth in all natiōs is preserued in the lords wheat and shall be so preserued to the end till it haue taken possession of all yea euen the most barbarous nations The floare in Austins iudgement is not the Church but the place rather in which the Church is kept for that as he truly saith is the wheat And in the same Epistle he speaketh yet more plaine of an other of your parables That is the Church saith Austin which swimmeth in the Lords net with naughtie fishes from which in heart and behauiour it alwaies is separated Could any thing be spoken more direct The floare and the net are in a generall sense the Church but the true Church indeed is in the one the wheat not the chaffe in the other the good fishes that swimme among the naughtie ones I may also farther except against these Parables because they are otherwise applied then they are intended by our Sauiour who neuer meant by any one of them to teach that the Church consisteth not of the elect onely Who saith Austin can without great impudencie go about to prooue anything for his purpose by interpretation of any Allegorie vnlesse he haue manifest testimonies whereby those matters that are obscure in it be cleared This is your last charge to as small purpose as either of the former If there may be an incestuous person say you in the Church then it consisteth not onely of those that be good But there may be an incestuous person in the Church Therefore the Church consisteth not onely of those that be good It is apparent that by good you vnderstand those that cannot be charged with any grosse outward sinne as Incest or such like In which sense I say your conclusion is nothing to the purpose For we do not affirme that no man is of the Church which by any occasion falleth into some grieuous sinne so should we exclude Peter when he denied his master Dauid when he committed adulterie and murther Noe when he was drunke Abraham when he lied and many other who for all these sinnes held fast their faith in the Messiah and continued true members of Iesus Christ according to Gods election howsoeuer those sinnes of theirs deserued separation from Christ and damnation The Church may consist of some who for the present are in regard of some great sin not good and yet consist of the elect only as the former examples shew Farther I denie the consequence of your Maior It is not all one to be in the Church and of the Church that is to be an outward professor and to be a true beleeuer And that the Church is the companie of the elect in the iudgement of the ancient writers these testimonies shew Ambrose maketh the Church the people whom God hath vouchsafed to adopt Whereas the Church saith Austin is so described in the Canticles that it is called a fenced garden my sister spouse a fountaine sealed vp a well of liuing water a paradise with fruite I dare not vnderstand this but of the holy and righteous The holy Church quoth Gregory is a garden because when it begets many to the faith it sends forth faire flowers like a good ground And it is well called a fenced garden because it is fortified round about with the trench of charitie that no reprobate may come into the number of the elect If the spouse of Christ which is the Church be a fenced garden saith Cyprian being shut vp it cannot lie open to the prophane and strangers But what should I recite seuerall testimonies Looke Origen Bernard and other writers vpon the Canticles and you shall easily see that the spouse of Christ is the companie of the elect A. D. §. 8. Lastly the ancient Fathers did teach that the Church is visible Origen saith Ecclesia plena est fulgore ab oriente vsque ad occidentem The Church is full of brightnesse from the East to the West Ecclesia saith S. Cyprian Domini luce persusa radios suos per orbem spargit The Church being bright with the light of our Lord doth spread her beames throughout the world Facilius est saith S. Chrysostome solem extingui quà m Ecclesiam obscurari It is more easie that the Sunne should be extinguished then that the Church should be obscured that is to say darkened and quite without light Saint Augustine also alluding to or rather expounding those words of our Sauiour Non potest ciuitas abscondi supra montem posita saith Ecclesia supra montem constituta abscondi non potest The Church being built vpon a mountaine cannot be hid And againe in another place he saith Quid amplius dicturus sum quà m caecos qui tam magnum montem non vident qui contra lucernam in candelabro positam oculos claudunt What shall I say more but that they are blind who do not see so great a mountaine who shut their eyes at the candle set vpon the candlesticke A. W. These and such like speeches of the Fathers were vttered by them for the most part concerning the Church as it flourished in their dayes and not of the perpetuall estate therof from time to time Neither speake they properly of the Church which is indeed the spouse of our Sauiour the bridegroome but of the multitude of them who hold the truth of doctrine against all cauils and oppositions of hereticks amongst whom only the Church of the elect ordinarily was preserued Your reason then is little worth The Fathers say the Church is visible Therefore it is alwayes visible to all men The consequēce of your Enthymem is naught as wel because it might be visible in those times and not always as also for that it is not all one to say it is visible and it is visible to all men at all times Now to the particulars First I answer to Origens testimonie that he speakes not of the Churches visibilitie but affirmes that the truth which is the brightnesse or light he mentions is in the Churches euery where East and West That this is his meaning it is plaine by the beginning of that homily and the whole course of it to the very place you alledge Origen expounds there that place of the Gospell As the lightning cometh out of the East This exposition begins thus We must know saith Origen that the brightnesse of the truth doth not appeare in one place of Scripture and cannot be defended by another but that it may be maintained out of all parts of Scripture the Law the Prophets the Gospels and the Apostles writings And this truth arising from the East that is the beginnings of Christ shineth to the very time of his passion in which was his setting or fall A little after We
any regard or knowledge of their being sent by the true Church This weake minor of yours is vnderpropt in each part with a pillar of the holy Scripture the former thus No sensuall man can obtaine the knowledge of diuine mysteries Euery man without faith is a sensuall man Therefore no man without faith can obtaine the knowledge of diuine mysteries If by obtaining the knowledge of diuine mysteries you meane assenting to the truth of God concerning saluation I grant your whole syllogisme and in this sense it was needlesse to proue that part of your minor In the other sense that a man cannot attaine to the knowledge of them but by faith which the words manifestly import I denie the maior for the reason before alledged but whatsoeuer your meaning be the Apostle saith no more but that a naturall man without the grace of God can neither once imagine any such meanes of saluation and other there is none nor acknowledge those meanes as true and sufficient Of the former the Apostle speakes in the ninth verse affirming that the means of saluation prepared by God for men are such as neither eye hath seen nor eare hath heard nor euer entred into any mans heart Of the latter is the place alledged by you where the word signifieth rather an approuing and receiuing then a perceiuing and the spirituall man whom he there opposeth to the naturall is said to discerne of spirituall things rather by acknowledging the truth of them then by vnderstanding the meaning of the word preached concerning them Your translation which I touched before where you terme hominem animalem a sensuall man is senslesse For who knowes not that by a sensuall man we meane a voluptuous man giuen vp to his pleasures and sensualitie But the Apostle speakes not of such onely but euen of the wisest and most vertuous that euer were amongst men without grace so that in his meaning as well temperate Xenocrates and learned Aristotle called for his knowledge natures darling vertuous Socrates and wise Solon as Sardanapalus Thersites Nero and such like are naturall men that is such as haue no grace of God but that shadow of it which remaineth in all men by nature and is helped by education and humane learning It is true that Animalis naturalis is not all one in nature yet doth Naturall better expresse the Apostles meaning then sensuall and generally all writers haue made an opposition in this sense betwixt Nature and Grace not betwixt Sensualnesse and Grace as you may see throughout Austins Prospers Ieromes and your owne Schoolemens writings Neither will it helpe the matter to say as you doe that Naturall wit in vnderstanding vseth the helpe of outward senses For sensuall signifieth not him that vseth his senses to the vnderstanding of this or that but him that is drowned in Sensualitie Besides naturall wit doth not vse the helpe of the outward senses alwaies in vnderstanding yea there are many and the most excellent pointes of Philosophie in which Sense hath nothing to doe as in the discourse of Reason and the knowledge of Logicke with all those hard and worthie Questions of the Soule and of God himselfe as farre as they are to be conceiued of by the light of nature If you will say that we learne these things partly by reading and hearing I aunswer both that we finde out many things in Philosophie of our selues by studie without anie helpe of Sense which rather is an hinderance to the soule in the search of such pointes and also that the knowledge we haue of diuine mysteries is first brought to vs and continually increased in vs by the same Senses of seeing and hearing else were your Church as good be without those preachers you so much brag of The other part of your Minor that faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church you prooue or rather endeauour to prooue in this sort If no man can beleeue without he heare nor heare without one preach and no man can preach except he be sent then Faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church But no man can beleeue without he heare nor heare without one preach and no man can preach without he be sent Therefore faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church I denie the consequence of your Maior and affirme that faith may be had without the teaching of the true Church though no man can beleeue without he heare c. For I haue shewed that some countries haue bene brought to beleefe without any such teaching by authoritie from the true Church I also referre the Reader to my answer to your Minor That place of the Apostle concerneth not the ordinarie ministerie of the word but the knowledge of the means of saluation which as the Apostle truly saith could neuer haue bene thought on by any man if it had not pleased God to giue notice thereof to the world by men appointed and authorised to that purpose by himselfe But of this place and matter I spake sufficiently before in this and in a former chapter A. D. §. 4. Thirdly true faith is included in the true Church and as it were enclosed in her belly as Saint Austin saith vpon those words of the Psalme Errauerunt ab vtero loquuti sunt falsa In ventre Ecclesiae saith he veritas manet quisquis ab hoc ventre separatus fuerit necesse est vt falsa loquatur Truth remaineth in the belly of the Church whosoeuer is separated to wit by difference in doctrine from this belly of the Church must needs speake false Therefore like as if a man had Gold in his belly we must first finde the man before we can come to see the gold it selfe so we must first by other markes finde out the true Church which hath the gold of true faith hidden in her belly before we come to see the gold of true faith it selfe Sith especially we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it vnto vs and that we cannot being spiritually blinde certainely know it to be true and not counterfeit but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it According as the same Saint Austin saith Euangelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesiae authoritas commouerer I should not beleeue the Gospell it selfe vnlesse I were mooued by the authoritie of the Church For if we had not the testimonie of the Church how should we haue bene infallibly sure that there were any Gospell at all Or how should we haue knowen that those bookes which â—eare title of the Gospell according to Saint Mathew Marke Luke and Iohn are true Canonicall Scripture rather then those bookes which are written in the name of Nicodemus and Saint Thomas bearing the same title or inscription of Gospell A. W. Your third reason is thus to be framed That which is shut vp in the belly
or happinesse This done thou shalt be sure to find by the euidence of truth manifested in those bookes that they are sent from God and not deuised by man If thou liue in such a place as affoordeth the interpretation of these bookes by the ministery of men vse that singular blessing of God with reuerence and care to vnderstand and thou shalt by the mercifull teaching of God acknowledge these books to be the word of God ordained for the saluation of thy selfe and other This will some man say may perhaps breed a perswasion that these bookes are from God but how shall we come to be infallibly sure of it How else but by the worke of the spirit of God in thy heart What say you must we runne to reuelations Who knowes the secrets of God but the spirit of God The truth it selfe discerned by that light which the spirit kindleth in our hearts worketh assurance of beleefe to which the testimonie of the spirit is added for our further confirmation Neither is this any other reuelation then you Papists require in this case For according to your doctrine no man can be perswaded infallibly of the truth of the Scripture either for the text or the interpretation but by the especiall teaching of the spirit otherwise he hath not faith but opinion of these matters Onely herein stands the difference betwixt vs that you say the argument whereby the spirit perswades vs to acknowledge the Scripture is the authoritie of the Church we affirme it is the euidence of truth which he makes vs to discerne by our vnderstanding enlightened and to approue by our will thereto inclined through his mightie and gracious worke vpon our soules The second part of your minor is that we could not haue knowne the Gospels of the foure Euangelists to be canonicall Scripture rather then those of Nicodemus and Thomas if we had not the testimonie of the Church Of the falsnesse of which opinion I shall need to say little because it is refuted in my answer to the former part For this knowledge is not bred in vs by resting vpon the Churches authoritie but by yeelding to the euidence of the truth discouered to our hearts by the teaching of the holy Ghost Concerning the authoritie of the Church in this point it were a presumptuous and vnreasonable thing for any man without very good proof or great likelihood of reason to deny or doubt of that which hath bin auouched so many yeares by the whole Christian world But to make question of the bookes of Scripture whether they be the word of God or no and to denie that there is any meanes to know them for such but the authoritie of the Church is the next way to open a gap to Atheisme to lay open Religion to the scorne of the world Can I not know the Scripture to be of God but by the authoritie of the Church How shal I then know it at all since it is not reasonable to beleeue there is any Church that hath such authoritie but by the warrant of the Scripture They do all they can to turne reasonable creatures into beasts who teach vs that we must beleeue the Church cannot erre because the Scripture saith so and yet denie that we can know there is any Scripture but by beleeuing it because the Church saith so This is to dance in a circle as if a man were coniured that he could not get out of it How shall I know there is a Church by the Scripture How shall I know there are any Scriptures by the Church Would your proud Clergie thus make fooles of Christian men if they did not despise them as voyd of all reason I wonder how your Pope Cardinals Bishops and the rest of your Cleargie can for beare laughing when they looke one vpon another and remember how they cosen and if I may vse the word in a matter of such importance gull the world with such palpable fooleries But your strumpet of Babylon hath made the Kings of the earth and all nations drunke with the cup of her fornications exalting her selfe aboue all that is called God and making her selfe the God of her slauish vassals But the Lord is iust who according to the Apostles prophefie hath sent the world strong delusions that they should beleeue lies that all they might be damned which beleeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse And certainly if there were not a great measure of 12. blindnesse and sottishnesse in the hearts of men that Gods purpose might take effect it were vnpossible that reasonable men should so be lead by the nose to errour and destruction A. D. §. 5. Fourthly if the true doctrine of faith in all particular points must be foreknowne as a marke whereby to know the true Church then contrarie to that which hath bin proued the authoritie of the Church should not be a necessarie meanes whereby men must come to the knowledge of the true faith For if before we come to know which is the true Church we must by an other meanes haue knowne which is the true faith what need then is there for getting true faith already had to seeke or bring in the authoritie of the same Church A. W. This fourth reason and the next labour to proue that part of your first assumptiō in this Chapter which we deny not that the true doctrine of faith in euery particular point is not a good marke of the Church It would therefore be but lost labour to spend much time in the examining of them yet somewhat I must say and first to the former If the true doctrine of faith in all particular points must be foreknowne as a marke to know the true Church by then is not the autoritie of the true Church a necessary meanes to know the true doctrine of faith by But the authoritie of the true Church is a necessary meanes to know the true faith by Therefore the true doctrine of faith must not be foreknowne in all particular points as a marke to know the true Church by Your conclusion is no more then we grant the consequence of your maior about which you take some paines needs not your helpe for the proofe of it Your minor is false That which you brought before to prooue it before was answered A. D. §. 6. Fiftly if before we giue absolute and vndoubted credit to the true Church we must examine and iudge whether euery particular point of doctrine which it holdeth be the truth with authoritie to accept that onely which we like or which seemeth in our conceit right and conformable to Scripture and to reiect whatsoeuer we mislike or which in our priuate iudgement seemeth not so right and conformable then we make our selues examiners and iudges ouer the church and consequently we preferre our liking or disliking our iudgement and censure of the interpretation and sense of Scripture before the iudgement and censure of the
only to the true Church to professe one and the same faith c. But to be one is to professe one and the same faith c. Therefore to be one is a propertie belonging onely to the true Church I denie your maior professing one and the same faith is not proper onely to the Church but common to it with some false Churches which haue for a long time continued in one and the same heresie as the Mahometans aboue a thousand yeares the Arians aboue 1200. Secondly if this marke be proper to the Church onely then as long as heretickes continue in one and the same heresie I may conclude that they are a true Church But to make your proposition true you must say instead of one and the same faith one and the same true faith which is the marke we set vp to know the true Church by and the reason why the Church is said to be one There are saith Theodoret infinite and innumerable Churches in the Isles and in the Continent but generally all of them are made one by their agreement in true doctrine The Church is said to be one saith Ferus because of the vnitie of faith hope and charitie Your minor also is false vnlesse you adde true to professe one and the same true faith as the place wherō you ground your large exposition might haue taught you For our Sauiour did not pray that his Church might professe one and the same faith at aduenture as if he had not cared what it professed so it alwayes professed the same faith but that it might alwayes professe the true faith which he deliuered to his Apostles and taught by his spirit But indeed that prayer of our Sauiour was not made for any companie of outward professors but onely for those and particularly for euery one of them that attaine to true faith in him As for the prophane and reprobate what is it lesse then blasphemie to say that our Sauiour prayed that they might be one with him and his Father as they are one especially since in the same chapter hee denieth that he prayeth for the world and namely restraineth his prayer to them who by the ministery of the word beleeue in him that is rest wholy and onely vpon him not onely make profession of beleeuing the Gospell which is enough without any inward grace to make any man a member of your true Church Thus haue I spoken of this marke as you should haue propounded your argumēt according to the course of your disputation Now that I may leaue nothing of any moment vnanswered I will speake to it as it is set downe by your selfe The matter you assay to proue is that the Church is signified to be one or is one To proue this you alledge foure seuerall places of Scripture The first is this My Doue is one Where by Doue you vnderstand the Church by being one professing one faith c. To this I answer first that it is no good course of disputing to proue a matter in controuersie by a place that is figuratiue and allegoricall because such texts as Thomas saith affoord no certaine arguments yea as Austin saith it is impudencie for a man to expound any allegory to his purpose vnlesse he haue manifest testimonies for the clearing of that which is doubtfull Secondly this interpretation of yours is directly contrarie to Cardinall Bellarmine and by him refuted who makes this Doue to be the soule of a Christian in the state of perfectiō and deliuers it as a certaine ground that those things in the Canticles which are spoken of the Spouse are not necessary to be vnderstood of the Church but may also be expounded of the Virgin Marie or of euery perfect soule Thirdly if we take it to be spoken of the Church as it is generally and as I am perswaded truly expounded yet doth it not signifie any outward companie but the true Church of Christ the companie of the elect called to the knowledge and profession of the Gospell euery one of which is in his place and measure that perfect soule whom the spouse of Christ so commendeth Know saith Origen that the Bridegroome is Christ the Bride the Church without spot or wrinkle of which it is written that he might make it glorious c. And Ierome who translated that commentary of Origen saith that the church spoken of in the Canticles cleaueth and is ioyned to Christ aboue the heauens as being made one spirit with him So doth Epiphanius vnderstand the place affirming that the Church is perfect because she hath receiued from God grace and knowledge of our Sauiour Christ by the holy Ghost Bernard no enemy to your Church saith in plaine termes that the spouse is the Church of the elect which is said to be one because all together are the spouse of Iesus Christ one chast virgin The sheepfold our Sauiour speaketh of is the same spouse in respect of the spirituall feeding which the sheepe haue in this life from him or to speake more directly it seemes to be that state of grace into which the shepheard Christ leadeth his sheepe that they may be folded vp and safe frō all spirituall dangers which might destroy them Once that he meanes not an outward profession common to sheepe with goates it may appeare by the whole course of the Chapter before wherein all the sheep of that fold are not only said to be Christs sheepe but also to heare his voyce yea so to heare it that they will not hearken to a stranger His sheepe heare his voyce saith Austin and he cals them by name for he hath their names writen in the booke of life Hereupon saith the Apostle The Lord knoweth who are his This sheepfold then is that estate into which Christ the true Shepheard bringeth his elect by the profession of his truth in the visible Church If any man had rather apply this text to the outward estate of the Churches I will not striue with him so that withall he remember first that in these outward Churches the elect onely are the sheepe one with Christ their shepheard as members of his mystical bodie Secondly that this one sheepfold is not to be considered in regard of the Churches being one in profession but in respect of the Gentiles admitted to haue place in Christs mysticall body as well as the Iewes all difference betwixt people and people being taken away In the next two places the church is cōpared to a bodie note that the comparison is chiefly of particular Churches in respect of the seuerall members thereof because of the mutuall coniunction and helpe which each part hath with other and is to affoord to other So doth Lombard truly expound it so you Glosse so Lyra. If we stretch it farther the chiefe cause why the church is one bodie is assigned by Cardinal Caietan to be the
the latter part of that you should proue is quite omittted that it is no hard matter for any simple man to discerne which Church is Apostolicke which is not If you make not this cleare you proue nothing and yet euery man may see that it is a matter of no small studie nor short time to examine what Churches were first founded by the Apostles and haue had an orderly succession without interruption from time to time yea when a man hath made the best search he can what hath he to rest himselfe vpon but the report of men who might deceiue and be deceiued And yet this ado euery poore soule must haue before he can tell to what Church he may ioyne himselfe for his spirituall instruction in matters concerning euerlasting life You will aske what course we take for a mans direction in this case Surely the very same which the Scriptures testify we ought to follow We propound out of the Scriptures the meanes of saluation we giue our people libertie to examine that we deliuer by the touchstone of truth the same Scriptures of God we desire not to haue any credit giuen to that we teach as a matter of faith but so far forth as we can proue it manifestly by the word of God Thus we begin with men thus we continue leauing the successe of our poore ministery to the blessing of Gods Spirit in the hearts of them that vouchsafe vs the hearing But for better direction in the triall of our doctrine wee giue this rule that true religion first respects the glory of God and then the present comfort and euerlasting saluation of them that professe it Whether course yours or ours be more reasonable and more agreeable to Scripture I leaue it to the consideration of al men whom it doth concerne and returne to the examining of your proofe whereof there are these two parts that the true Church is Apostolicke that no conuenticle of heretickes can be Apostolicke Of the former thus you dispute If euery true Church must haue such a foundation as the Church of the Ephesians had and she had her foundation from the Apostles then euery true Church must haue her foundation from the Apostles But euery true Church must haue such a foundation as the Church of the Ephesians had and she had her foundation from the Apostles Therefore euery true Church must haue her foundation from the Apostles I would make no question of any part of your Syllogisme if by foundation from the Apostles you vnderstood nothing but Apostolicall doctrine which is indeed the maine foundation of all true Churches but you afterward expound your meaning and acknowledge no foundation from the Apostles but by the ministery of such as can deriue their succession from the Apostles without any interruption In this sense therefore I denie your minor because the former part of it is false For euery true Church hath not nor need haue to make it a true Church such foundation as the Church of the Ephesians had Yea though we doubt not but that the Ephesiās were conuerted to the faith by some of the Apostles and perhaps by the Apostle Paul yet we doe not beleeue that the Apostle in the place alledged by you speakes of any such foundation but of the truth of doctrine taught by the Apostles This may appeare because the Apostle makes the Prophets their foundation as wel as the Apostles But certaine it is that neither the Prophets nor any by succession from them laid the foundation of the Gospell amongst the Ephesians He meanes saith Theodoret the Prophets of the old Testament not of the new lest you should cauill about the name Prophets Besides the foundation of the Apostles must be conceiued as our Sauiour Christ is the corner stone to the Ephesians not because he preached to them but for that they rested vpon him as a corner stone the doctrine of the Apostles being the foundation And if we will tie this to the persons that deliuer the doctrine then to be the foundation is so proper to the Apostles as that it cannot agree to any other man whatsoeuer how Apostolicke soeuer he may be imagined to be For this was their speciall honor aboue all other Christians Thus doe the best interpreters expound the place Vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles that is saith Ambrose vpon the new and old Testament For that which the Apostles preached the Prophets foretold As for the Prophets of the new Testament They saith Ambrose are for the ordering of the Church founded and not for the founding of it Vpon Christ saith your Glosse or vpon the doctrine of the Apostles So Lyra Vpon the doctrine of the new and old Testament With whom Lombard agreeth though he expound it also of Christ So doth Thomas Vpon their doctrine So doth Caietan vnderstand it that a man may wonder at your ignorance or boldnesse in going against the streame of your owne Doctors without any shew of reason for it Wherefore if your minor intend no more but that euery true Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles in respect of their doctrine no exception could be taken against it For other foundation no man can lay but Iesus Christ according to the preaching and prophesying of the Apostles and Prophets This foundation had the Church of Ephesus and in this must euery true Church agree with it But you apply this to I know not what dependance of succession which hath no kinde of warrant from that place of the Apostle To supply your want of proofe from the Scriptures that euery true Church must haue her foundation from some Apostle or some man who can fetch his pedegree without interruption from the Apostles you seeke to draw in Tertullian for a witnesse of your error Let vs heare his depositiō The Apostles saith Tertullian founded Churches in euery citie Here to helpe your selfe you adde this glosse To wit either immediatly by themselues or by meanes of other What reason is there that he that is a partie in the suite should haue the expoūding of the witnesses meaning Tertullian saith the Apostles founded Churches you tell vs he meanes they did so by themselues or by others How shall we know that you are so priuy to his meaning If you ground your exposition vpon those words in euery citie whereas the Apostles came not in diuers cities that were then in the world I pray remember that there were at that time many cities into which we are not sure that the Gospell had before Tertullians time bin receiued The learned man may speake in generall and yet with speciall relation to those places which were then knowne to be Churches founded by the Apostles as Ierusalem Antioch Rome Alexandria Ephesus c. He addes farther that From these Churches founded by the Apostles other Churches afterward had borrowed and in his time dayly
as you taught vs before of necessitie to saluation that we beleeue entirely all points of faith without misbeleeuing any one what hope of saluation shall be left to any Papist who cannot by any meanes know what is determined by the Church and what is not Or if he may be sure that matters defined by the Pope and a Councell are decided by the Church yet since it is not so determined whether the Pope alone be sufficient to determine of points in controuersie he may refuse to obey some constitutions of the Pope or to beleeue some questions decided by him and thereby shut himselfe out of heauen for not giuing credit to the determination of the Church if that authoritie of determining be in the Pope and he commaund men so to beleeue But if this determination of the Church be ioyntly in the Pope and Councels and that nothing is a matter of faith but that which is so determined to be then was there almost no matter of faith at all in the Church till within these last 800 yeares For it is more then euident to any man that will not be wilfully contentious that the Pope neuer bare any extraordinarie sway in Councels till he had proclaimed himselfe vniuersall Bishop which was by the grant of the murtherer Phocas six hundred yeares after the beginning of the Gospell What shall we thinke of the Churches in the Apostles times and so forward till the Councell of Nice in which the Popes supremacie was not heard of Had Christians then no matters of faith to beleeue How should they if all depend vpon the Pope and a general Councel Let me grant that those Councels in the Acts were generall what was there determined but that the Gentiles were to abstaine from things offered to Idols and bloud and that which is strangled and from fornication VVas nothing a matter of faith but these few points which also till this time were not matters of faith Either shew some good reason why matters of faith were not at this time of the Apostles liuing to be tied to generall Councels and the Pope yet now must be or confesse the truth to the glorie of God that matters of faith haue their authoritie to be matters of faith from the word of God and not from the determination of Pope or Councell or both Neither thinke to shift of the matter by saying they are indeed matters of faith in themselues but not to vs. For so it will come to passe that we shall say the first Christians had no points that were matters of faith to them because they had none determined by the Church in a Councell which opinion is I know not whether of more absurditie or impietie Now that you agreement in matters of faith after the determination of the Church is not so great as you would make the world beleeue it may appeare by the verie ground of religion the Canon of the Scripture which was determined of by your iudgement in the Councell of Carthage wherein the Apocryphall bookes say you were allowed for Canonical yet saith Bellarmine Nicholas Lyra Denys the Carthusiā Hugo de sancto victore Thomas de Vio both these at least the last Cardinals follow Ierom in reiecting thē as Apocryphal But if this Councel may be excepted against sure in your iudgment the Councell of Trent may not which hath receiued those books into the canō of the scripture Yet for all that Sixtus Senensis keeper of the Popes library maketh bold to deny thē such authority euen since that Coūcel as Bellarmine himself confesseth And Arias Montanus since that time doubteth not to say that the Orthodoxe or true Church following the Canon of the Hebrewes accounteth those bookes of the old Testament written in Greeke to be Apocryphal What say you to your Bishop Catharin who being one of the Councell of Trent after the determination of the Councell against assurance of saluation defendeth that such assurance notwithstanding that decree of the Councell may ordinarily be had by them that beleeue You would perswade vs that it is a ruled case of your Church long ago that the Scriptures are not sufficient without tradition What saith Scotus in this case Whatsoeuer pertaineth to heauenly and supernaturall knowledge and is necessarie to be knowne of men in this life is sufficiently deliuered in the holy scriptures The holy scripture saith Gerson is sufficient for the gouernment of the Church or else was Christ an vnperfect Lawgiuer I might runne on in the like course touching other points but these shal serue for a tast and so I passe ouer to your proofe that the learned on your side cannot possibly dissent one from another They which acknowledge that the definitiue sentence of the Pope is to be rested vpon as an vndoubted truth cannot possibly dissent in matters of faith But all Catholick learned men acknowledge that the Popes sentence is such Therefore no Catholicke learned men can possibly dissent in matters of faith All you conclude is that in matters determined by the Pope and a Councell your learned men cannot disagree because they hold that such a determination is certainly true yet for all this as I haue shewed your Church may be rent in peeces with contrarie opinions in matters of as great moment as most are in religion if for all this it cease not to be a true Church why should not the Protestants haue the like priuiledge who haue the same opinion of the Scriptures that you haue of the Pope Be not so iniurious to reason or blasphemous against God as to auouch that no controuersie can be ended by the word because diuers men will expound it diuersly For it is contrarie both to religion and sense to imagine that the Lord would giue his people such a Scripture as cannot be certainely vnderstood in all points necessarie to saluation but by I know not what reuelation to some one man More particularly I denie your Maior They that acknowledge such an authoritie in the Pope may yet differ in opinion about matters of faith I bring you example in that point of assurance wherein Catharin disputed against that doctrine which Sotus and your writers generally since the Councell of Trent affirme to haue bene the certaine decree of the Councell Yet were they both present in the Councell and none of the meanest there assembed The reason of that their dissent and the possibilitie of the like betwixt other men ariseth from this that decrees of Councels and Popes being set downe in writing may be diuersly interpreted and so the meaning of them mistaken as Catharin saith that he foresaw some men would misunderstand the Councell of Trent in that point This is all the inconueniences you can alledge in admitting the Scripture for Iudge and this followeth the decrees of Councels and Popes at the least as much as the writings of the holy Ghost