Apostles faith was so strong as it needed no meanes to stirre vp the same And I would tell you you say vntruly but that your skore is so full that now you be desperate Of these two bastardly propositions conceiued and brought forth by your selues and not by me you frame a Contradiction saying therupon that I will turne â—re I burne yea with the turning of an hand turne the cat in the pan and then you tell my pupils they may be pestilent proud of such a turne-about tutor Here wee may beholde as your honest dealing with me so your eloquence and modestie Besides I auouching the Apostles strong faith after Pentecost able for miracles whatsoeuer and therefore vnlikely the Lord should appoint a peculiar course for them for so short a time as from his transfiguration till then you collect from hence the weaknes of their faith till Penticost which I graunt you and more then that namely that their miraculous faith was vtterly extinct at this time And therfore no vse of fasting and prayer for the extraordinarie work but onely as it serued to the vsual maner of the Church in this case But you wil proue the apostles miraculous faith might faile aâ—ter Pentecost because their faith failed sometimes in doctrine and 〈◊〉 That we may vnderstand your meaning what do y◠〈◊〉 by Doctrine what by iudgement Doctrine vsuall is publike teaching and instruction Iudgment priuate thinking and opinion Did the Apostles erre in publike teaching You saye The Apostles and bretheren which were in Iudâ—a thought the word of God was not to be preached to the Gentils Act. 11. 2. You ground this ouâ— of these wordes And when Peter was ascâ—nded to Hâ—erusalem they of the circumcision contended against him VVho contended with him The Apostles say you but without any warrant from the text It seemeth S. Luke hauing mentioned the Apostles in the first verse doth of purpose in the second vse these generall termes They of the circumcision to distinguish these contenders with Peter froÌ„ the Apostles It may be the Apostles did not yet â—o clearly vnderstand this mistery yet it is not likelie they were in this caâ—e no more but equall to the weake brethren whereby theâ— should ioyne in contention with them Grant we also an errour here it was only in iudgement not in doctrine And as for Peters not going rightly to the truth of the Gospell it was not error Gat. 2. 13. 14 either in doctrine or iudgement but a timorous dissimulation for the time Iohn his falling downe before an Angell was errour through Râ—ue 19. 10 sodaine passion not proceeding from setled iudgement much lesse auouched in publike teaching Considering therefore these places proue not that the Apostles erred in doctrine and iudgement and that the Lord doth principallâ— promise that the Spirit of truth should lâ—ad Ioh. 16. 13 14. 26. 1. Cor. 3. 10. Ephes 2. â—0 them into all truth and bring all things to their remembrance which Christ had told them whereupon they be called Skilfull Maister-builders and the Church is said to be built vpon the foundation of the prophets and apostles It is admirable you dare so considently auouch such an assertion vpon so little or rather no warrant and of so dangerous consequence You childishly cauill at my speech where I say Their faith did not faile them after they receiued the holy Ghost in â—ag 127. c That fâ—â—nesse as if I had attributed such a fulnesse to theÌ„ as is not incident to a creature and yet I expresly distinguish it by note of restraint Act. 7. 55. 13. 9. Luc. 1. 41. Act. 2. 2. 4 That fulnesse that is such a plentifull measure as I had spoken of before Such an one as was said of Stephen â—hat hee was ful of the holy Ghost and of Paul and of Elizabeth when shee brake forth into that heauenly salutation of the blessed virgin that she was filled with the holy ghost The same is said of Zachaâ—y when he prophecied and of the Apostles that they were filled with the holy ghost And all these in the Concret but in the Abstract without all limitation to haue the fulnesse â—f the Spirit belongeth onely to a diuine person the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost So that whatsoeuer person hath the simple fulnesse of the Spirit the same is God as well as hee who hath the fulnesse of the Godhead Of Christ his fulnesse to whom the Father hath not giuen his Spirit by measure do all the elect receiue not the fulnes it selfe but grace for grace that is graces or gifts of the Spirit heaped vpon graces euery one according to the measure of the gift of Christ some eueÌ„ vntil their cup runne ouer All which discourse when at last you pag. 133. conclude that howsoeuer the Apostles were subiect to errour yet they could not posâ—iblie erre sâ— long as they heard the voice of Christ and but followed the onely directions of the spirit of truth And that they did neuer vniuersally erre Moreouer that they did neuer â—â—cline from the foundation it selfe lastly that they wâ—re recalled from their eâ—râ—ursâ— what singular thing do you ascribe to the Apostles that is not common to all beleeuers Are not the Apostles to be preferred aboue all other Ministers of the Gospell and beleeuers since theire dayes Yet you seeme to put them in the very same raâ—ke Nay you say in the top of the same page that there â—e some Fâ—stâ—noniâ—s of the Apostles which onely but slipped from humane infirmities and that these â—ow glorious soeuer in shew are not the testimony of Iesus therfore not the spirit of prophâ—cie you speake here very daungerously that I say no worse You argue the defect of the Apostles miraculous â—aith from their pag. 135. Act. 4. 29 30. 9. 40 〈◊〉 8. 8 praying in working miracles which rather is an argument for the continuance of it For if it had â—in vtterly extinâ— it had not bene to â—e obtained by prayer but if you say Prayer declareth the â—eaknes of it and that you meane such weaknesse as without prayer haâ— not beene able to effect the worke it is false 〈◊〉 hath beene oft â—emembred vnto you but if you take weaknesse for some lesse measure of Matt. 17. cheerefulnesse which had neede be stirred by inuocation of Gods holy name I graunt you such a weaknesse but this is too weake to strengthen any whit your cause you charge mee falsly in saying I denie that the apostles faith might did faile before they were filled with Doct. pag. 46 48 Doct. 49 pag. 136 the holy Spirit I know not how oft I affirme this which you say is the very point I denie Neither do I say it was but fortie dayes betweene Christ his transfigiâ—ation and Pentecost I do writtingly let passe manie of your lies it is a trouble to repeate them you see no inconuenience to approper these words This kind
alleage certaine counterfeit deliuerances from Satan to countenance Christian religion with Doth he vse such policie in writing to the Gouernour Scapula to gaine credite to the profession of the Gospell Surely you are either not well in your wits or which is worse you haue for filthy sucres sake conspired to make but meere fables of the great works of God But he sheweth not say you the maner how they were deliâ—ered Do you sticke at this matter you will not haue it by miracle in any sort â—â—d therefore say wee by fasting and prayer Nay but will you say if it were at all it was by Miracle and Miracles were ceased before his dayes Therefore speake plainely and tell Tertullian to his face that he lyes that hee deluded the world with his pretended deliuerances This is your meaning and this answer would be short How Cyprian is to be vnderstoode we shall know say you by Iames Pammelius who telleth vâ— That the Fxorcists office was not then in anâ—e vse of the church because that office being ioyned with the gift of Miracles did continue but for a time I do not alleage Cyprian for the office of Exorcists but for the casting forth of diuels in those dayes which he testifieth plainly saying And the diuels by torments of wâ—rds are cast out of bod es possessed To this adde if you will Pammelius his testimonie that miracles were then ceased and so we conclude That there were casting forth of diuels in Cyprians time yet not miraculous But yet for Iames Pammelius let me tell you thus much wheras you alleage his words for the ceasing of Exâ—rcists before that time and also that a little after he should say That the crafts and iugling sleights of counterfeit Exorcists â—yp Epist 55 76 edit â—ammel Antuerp â—n ad b. Petrâ—â—elleri 1589 coniuring priests they are long since apparantly â—uident yea euen to the very eyes of the blind I maruelled greatly to heare these words of Iames Pammelius I knew he affirmes the cleane contrary maintaining strongly by testimony of Antiquitie that office of Exorcising both of Spirits possessing and in Baptisme I turned my Cybrian but I could find no such words of his And therefore either you haue met with an edition later then the last or els you are as notable in belying mens writinges as the most shamlesse Papist of them all To the rest as Chrysostome Peter Martyâ— Kemnitius Phil. Melancthon Beza Vogellius Danaeuâ— Chassanius all of them most plainly testifying dispossession and that by meanes of fasting and prayer you answere not one word but for the lenght of their footinges referre vs to that which hath beene spoken of the former Indeed these treade in the steps of the former and of all the godly â—earned that went before them therfore by them we may gesse their footings and so likewise by your three wiâ—les answers to the three former we may easily gesse what would be your answere to these namely all the absurd shiftes you could deuise to elude their testimonies as not hauing in purpose to find out the truth or to yeild to it beeing found but by hook and by crook to maintaine your owne giddy fancies whatsoeuer eyther Scripture or any other shall saye against it What doe I therfore disputing with such companions which make not truth their end but some other peruerse respect I know not well what Surely Christian Reader that which I do is for thy good to laye open vnto thee their vnconscionable iuglings least by any coloured pretences thou shouldst be beguiled by them Did not I well to bind theÌ„ to their good behauior by a publike Instrument in their Discourses Thou seest they haue not one worde of truth to say against the practise of the Church of God from the Apostles time till now But you are weary of these authenticall witnesses and therefore betake your selues againe to your woÌ„ted reasonings where you may haue more scope of words and more hope to darken the truth pag. 170. If say you prayer and fasting bee an establâ—shed ordinance then it should be alwayes effectuall I answere you seldome bring an If but there is a lye in the end of it The prophet complayneth How 2. Sam. 12. 18 long Lord wilt thou hide thy face for euer Because Dauid obtained not by his sute his Sonnes life he might by this rule haue bid prayer and fasting adue Infinite are the instances it is meruaile you could meet with none of them to cause you to hold in so grosse an vntruth But I crie you mercy you meane effectuall in regard of pag 171 172 173. vttermost issue not of the present time Now then frame your reason The ordinance of god is alwayes effectuall prayer fasting is not allwayes effectuall so not god his ordinance in this case I answere if you take â—ffectual for the last issue and such help as is expedient you say vntruly of prayer and fasting If you meane Effectuall for â—ensible imagined and present helpe then is it as false you say of gods ordinance And this iâ— you mark it will suâ—fice for all you prattle pa. 174. 175 about this matter So likewise how Dispossession now is no miracle enough hath beene spoken except you can bring vs something of more weight then hitherto â—ou haue done Further obâ—erue that here they spare not to denie though in as couert tearmes as they can the witnesse of Tertullian Cyprian Chrysostome â—nd of al the rest before alleaged or that can be Moreouer it this will not serue for compendiousnesse sake and more securitie of their cause they deny the conclusion I he argument is If dispossession by prayer and fasting pag. 176. be miraculouâ— then Tertullian Cyprian Chysostome and others wrought miracles when they expelled diuels after this sort but this is false and therefore the first To this you answereâ— Secondly if it be true that here tofore or nowe spirits bee expelled by sole prayer and â—asting thâ—n is the worke a miâ—acle which is the contrarie aâ—firmation to the conclusion pag. 177 When you taâ—ke of sole prayer and fasting you haue a secret meaning of your owne of sole prayer without faith Concerning which I tell you again that if M. Walker you haue such a kind of prayer and such a kind of faith as vsually are separated one from another you may do well to dispute of such matters betweene your selues for my part I allowe no such prayer neither doth the Church of God You argue that dispossession is not by historicall or temporary faith pag. 179. because God hath appointed it to miraculâ—us faith which thing if it had beene proued in the beginning we had done long â—ince Further you see not wherein iâ—stiâ—ying faith should be â—ar bâ—tter then Tâ—mporarie if this doth â—ast out diuels as if to cast out diuels out of the boâ—ies of men were all in all Besides if historicall â—aâ—th be suffâ—câ—ent diuels might
yet they feele no paines at all Yet I doubt not but that Satan can jo order the matter as that the Possessed shall haue paine when he shall see it serue for his purpose c. By which I shewe there is â—ag 48. not one vniforme order to be expected in these cases which varietie of affliction these men would draw to inconstancie of opinion You condemne me also for thinking The Scripture signes are not recorded onely as matter of fact but partly to helpe vs in discorning of possessions Mar. 9. 21. I ground my reason on the question of our Sauiour How long time is it he hath beene thus You answere Christ respecteth in this question onely the first time of that accident And I reply you respect in this answer how to trifle off any thing obâ—ected against you with foolish words without any substance at all Doth not our Sauiour loyne together with the time the maner and forme of his handling Doth he not enquire as well of the one as of the other We must haue a question of time without any subiect matter or reference to any thing Miraculous Answerers which can measure time without any standard laid vnto it You charge me with foisting in words into the text for aduantage but it is your owne mouthes which runne pag. 49. ouer with the word Essentially and not any addition of mine I content my selfe with the phrase of the holy Ghost reiecting these tearmes as needlesse and superfluous Though wheresoeuer the diuel is this speech properly vnderstood as it is vsually in the matter of Possession there must also his spiritual essence be That which you thinke is more then the text is onely added to paraphrase it and though these words In him be not in this Scripture yet are they else where vsed in like case you are very hungry which would leap Act. 19 1 at so small a morsell Whether there be a medicine or no for curing Essentiall possession you yay we shall see after in handl ng that joint and I am content to refer pag 50. 51 52. it thither As for speedie deliuer aâ—â—ee of the afflicted I acknowledge it is no argument of possession and I thanke you for reprouing it though of my selfe I would be ready to retract anie thing dissonant from the truth It is not my desire any my stubble should bee layd vpon the foundation but I am coÌ„tent the fire of Gods word should consume it I alleaging those words of the law That the Lord will bring vpon Deut. 28. 6 pag. 53. Râ—uel 22. 1 transgrâ—ssâ—â—â— euâ—ry â—â—cknâ—sse and euery plague which is not written in the booke of the Law vntill they be destroyed And also that of Saint Iohn He that shall adde vnto these things God shall adde vnto him the plagues that are written in this booke to proue that men may now be possessed you answere I abuse the Scripture making Possession sametimes written sometimes vnwritten But you abuse your selues and your Reader to iangle about that which euerie childe might teach you For who knowes not that some thinges might bee vnwritten in the Law that be very frequent in the Gospel as indeed Possession is But to answer my argument out of these places you denie pag. 53. Essentiall possession to be decrced in God his eternall counsell for a iudgement That Possession is essentiall we haue sufficiently proued in suruey of your Discourses That it is decreed for a iudgement may appeare to any not wilfully blind by those manifolde examples of men possessed in the Scriptures Except those things hapned beside the decree of God or else those possessions were rewards and benefits not iudgements and afflictions It may be your impudent vaine will not sticke to admit either though none can avouch the first but Atheists nor the second but only men that are mad I haue shewed in your Discourses how the Lords iudgements are perpetuall though not inflicted euerie moment but after such intermission as pleaseth him Is it not then excellent stuffe you bring That the iudgements of this life for we speake only of them cannot perpetually pag. 54. bee inflicted but salvation must needs be barred from all in Christ In like maner because I say Possession is but a conditionall and temporall iudgement you therefore interre It is not perpetuall Wâ—ere you play with the wordâ— meaning perpetuall a continued connexion such as nothing may be put betweene when as that is vsually said to bee perpetuall which is common to all ages though it appeare but now â—ag 55. and then You charge me with disputing from May be to a being in deed May not I wel dispute It may be wheÌ„ you would euerie where maintaine It cannot bee How can a being indeede bee concluded before it be manifest the same thing May be If the heauens therefore fall we shall not onely catch Larks as you say but by catching also of you two we shall catch something that wants braines I affirming There is as great cause of this iudgmeÌ„t now as at any time heretofore you answere It is vâ—tâ—rly vntrue The manifestation of Christs Deitie and the confirmation of his glorious Gospel being the maine causes of possessioÌ„ in Christs time My meaning is as appeareth by my words there is as great cause in respect of sin as much abounding now as euer For I do not compare this cause of punishment with the manifestation of Christ his Deitie And therfore besides the ceasing of the two maine causes you should also haue shewed that sin was ceased or else sinne to be no cause which you purpose to doe in the pag. 56. pages following But in the meane season how doe you flourish it as if I should proudly limit the Lord his times and seasons for inflicting his iudgements I limit no times but leaue it free to the Lord yet knowing the reward of sinne and the ample kingdom it now hath according to the maner of all the Prophets I can do no lesse then expect his fearefull iudgements of what kind so euer But you will pag. 57. 58. proue Possession is no punishment for sinne and that out of the Depth of Divinity Your reason is Afflictions of this life laid vpon the Elect be not properly punishments It is true but what do you lay to this possession of Diuels is an affliction of this life We graunt this too yet so that not onely Possession is an affliction of this life but that there be infinite other miseries and calamities besides What then Shall we now conclude That no miserie or calamitie whatsoeuer as well as this of Possession is any punishment for sinne O deepe Diuinitie and such as hath not beene raised from the bottomlesse pit till now I denie not but the Lord may impose it vpon a man for trial and for other ends as he knowes best but may he not also therfore inflict it as a chastisement for sinne or castigatorie punishment But
my writings might make most for your purpose euen purposely maymed my writings which you deny and I affirme iudge thou indissirently betwene vs good reader And whether you will acknowledge and redresse the offred wrong whereof I complaine and which I trust to be a wrong I haue made manifest by this my Replie vnto all men to your owne consciences as you pretend you will nay seeme to abhorre not to do it if once the wrong shal be made to appeare saying God forbid that we should not doe it very willinglie in time both thou and I shall know And thus much for answer to their supposed contradictions For breuitie sake I omit my reply to the Absurdities wherewith you charge me and your slaunders conteined in them Here not vnfitly may I charge you with the contradictions Absurdities I find in your writinges and if it fall out so that your selues be found faultie in that wherof vniustly you accuse another then thereby learne henceforward to plucke rather the beame out of your own eyes then busie your selues so much about lesse then a mote in your brothers eye In their Answere page 55 and page 179 of their Discourses they say that the manifestation of Christ his deitie and declaration of his glorious spell were the maine ends of possâ—ssion and a little after that the possession of diuels were especially for these two ends therby in sinuating that there were some other ends or end Yet page 67 of the same booke they say that these were the two only ends of this vonderfull iudgement 2 In their Dial. dis page 58 they say angels doe euermore worke after an inuisible insensible and spirituall maner And the next leafe page 60 they say that angels in all their ambassages they do other manifest themselues by seeing and hearing or assist vs estsoonâ—s by some other sensible means And they bring Augustine flatly affirming that the angels do outwardly helpe vs by certaine visible apparitions or sights which they propose and offer before our eyes 3 In their Discourses pa. 42 they say the mind it selfe and it only is that wherein motion consisteth and the body is but the minds organon or instrument hauing naturally in it selfe no motion at all or no further motion at the most then for those only actions wherin the said mind whose organon it is imployeth the same But in pag. 74 of the same booke they affirme that the body it selfe hath and may accomplish or effect corporall operations and motions by it selfe alone without anie the direction moderation guidance or 〈◊〉 of the soule 4 In their Discourses pag. 116 they say the diuell did so bewitch and charme the Serpent as that through his craftie suggestion shee was very wel able to propound such a diuination or soothsâ—…ing as dâ—d presently circumuent or deceiue Fuah And in the same booke page 1 9 they say that a reasonable speech cannot possibly bee framed or vnderstood of anie but of a mind hauing vnderstanding and reason 5 In their Answer pa 50 they say These eight dâ—moniakes might be possessed though the diuell was not essentially inherent in anie one of their bodies But page 43 of the same booke they say The pâ—ssession of diuels whatsoeuer is ceased long since 6 In their Discourses 173 they say The Apostles might autheÌ„tically auouch for insallible truth whatsoeuer they preached But in their Answere page 126 128 129 130 they say that the apostles sometime failed in doctrine And a little after all these were their errâ—urs in doctrine and iudgement And againe It was expedient for the apostles to erre in some things that is some points of doctrine And this they vnderstand after the holy Ghost fell vpon them as is plaine by the aforesaid pages 7 In their Answer pag. 7 they say that wonders and miracles are flatly confounded but in their Dialogicall discourses 209 they say the diuel may worke wonders but can effect no miracles And pag 310 thus A thing effected by essentiall means howsoeuer it may be a wonder yet no miracle in any respect 8 In your Discourses pag. 352. for your parts you assure me that you are very farre from all suspition of a precompacted confederacie betweene Sommers and me Yet in page 42. of your Answere you say why should we wonder at all that two â—unning companâ—â—ns Meaning Sonnners and my selfe consedâ—rate together before should conclude such a course betweene themselues as the one by the helpe of the other should progmsâ—icate strange and meredâ—ble euents 9 In pag. 39. of their Discourses they tell vs There is not anie one sound Diuine that dâ—thâ—n t vnderstand Possession as they doe and none as I fondly imagine and yet in the â—pistle to the Reader prefixed before that booke that which they deliuer concerning possession and d sposs ssion of dâ—uels they call thâ—t priuate opinion and in page 195 of their Answere The Lord his lately revealed counsels Part of their absurd and vnsound Positions 1 Godby good Angels may effect fantasticall vaine and filthie effects Answers 15. 2 Good â—ngels may effect vaine and filthy effects ibid. 3 VVheresoeuer the Scriptures speake of Angels or diuels they speake only by metaphore ibid. 4 The Diuel hath no desire to be in any mans body Ans 22 5 The Iewes in Christs time did partly know the parties which were possessed from the often reuelation of the parties themselues answ 32 6 Godby his Spirit instructed the Cananitish woman mentioned Matth. 15 22 of her daughters malacie answ 33 7 The manifestation of Christs deitie and the confirmation of the Gospell the only ends of Possession answ 67 8 Christ hath put a finall end to the possession of diuels by his death and resurrection answ 66 9 The supernaturall actions or effects of the Diuel in Demoniaks cannot possibly be comprehended by humane senses Ans 69 10 The working of miracles was only in Christ and his Apostles dayes answ 90 11 God hath appointed plowing and sowing for a meanes of abundance or barrennes vpon the ground answ 172 12 Good angels do euormore worke after an invisible insensible and spirituall manner Dialogical discourses 58. This is to bee refuted by all those places where angels are said to haue appeared and spoken in visible formes vnto men 13 The body hath and may accomplish by her selfe alone corporall actions and motions without anie her soules direction moderation guidance or consent Dial. disc 74 14 The dead carcasse of a man or the body being separate from the soule may and doth also effect corporall actions and motions ibid. 15 The Diuel did so bewitch and so charme the Serpent as that through his craftie suggestion shee was very well able to propound such a diuination or soothsaying as did presently circumuent and deceiue Euah Dial. disc 16. Absurd that the Diuell should not onely thus make the Serpent it selfe to speake but also argue the matter like a reasonable creature 16 The apostles erred in some points of doctrine after the holy Ghost fell vpon them Yea it was expedient for them so to erre answ 126 128 129 130 17 It is verie erronious for able to imagin that the eyes may possibly be deceiued in discerning betweene spirits that is bodies assumed by spirits and true naturall bodies Dial. disc 157. You forget that Abraham and Lot were deceiued as appeareth by Gen. 18. and 19. FINIS I am to craue thy patience good Reader specially the authours for the late comming forth of this booke for I confesse it hath layen in my hands almost this halfe yeare