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truth_n	apostle_n	church_n	err_v	1,649	5	9.6490	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A82508	A defence of sundry positions, and Scriptures alledged to justifie the Congregationall-way; charged at first to be weak therein, impertinent, and unsufficient; by R.H. M. A. of Magd. Col. Cambr. in his examination of them; but upon further examination, cleerly manifested to be sufficient, pertinent, and full of power. / By [brace] Samuel Eaton, teacher, and Timothy Taylor, pastor [brace] of [brace] the church in Duckenfield, in Cheshire. Published according to order.	Eaton, Samuel, 1596?-1665.; Taylor, Timothy, 1611 or 12-1681.	1645 (1645)	Wing E118; Thomason E308_27; ESTC R200391	116,862	145

you be so soolish prophane presumptuous superstitious A stranger comes to the gate of a Garrison town professeth to be a friend yet except there be something to witnesse the truth of that profession he is examined over and over again and it is strictnesse that shewes faithfulnesse to the State And shall we be more remisse and carelesse when we receive persons into the Church then we are when we receive them into a town Our too much credulity may shew too little fidelity in the matters of Christ as well as in the businesse of men Besides if the Church be not a common receptacle of all persons but that it consist of a selected number and some are received and others rejected then there are certain rules of reception and rejection And then there must be a triall made by some whether persons be qualified according to those rules and this the light of nature teacheth and the rules of Reason lead to it though there should be nothing in the Scripture expresly mentioning it The most sutable means serving most fitly to atchieve such ends are alwayes enjoyned in the ends though they be not particularly expressed But what think you Is it not as lawfull to try persons that would be Church-members and make some profession in words of saith and repentance but hold forth nothing which may probably give witnesse to the reality thereof as it was lawfull and commendable in the Ephesians to try false Apostles which professed in words to be true Apostles Rev. 2.2 And is it not as reasonable for a Church to seek satisfaction concerning the reality and sincerity of sanctity from persons of whom they doubt as it was just and equall for the Church at Jerusalem to seek satisfaction concerning Saul whether he were a Disciple in truth or in pretence only Acts 9.26 27. But you will say there was cause of suspicion and jealousie in them concerning him because they knew him formerly to be a destroyer of the Church And may not we say there is cause of jealousie when we know externall profession of faith and repentance to be so common and the fruits which are worthy of it Mat. 3.8 to be so rare and scarce to be found If the Gospel and Christian Religion was brought into England in the Apostles times then it was like it was constituted of Saints Answer Church-covenant p. 37. as well as the Church of Corinth c. Because it is uncertain what Congregation was at first constituted of Saints within this kingdome and what was not Reply we neither justifie nor condemn the constitution of any but judge according to the present state of them And if we see any visible Saints as doubtlesse there are many in some Congregations and united also amongst themselves we could wish they were all such and in the mean time for the sake of those few whom we see so united we acknowledge them a Church and in all things so farre as they carry the ordinances uncorruptly we desire to have fellowship with them The Text in 1 Cor. 1. rather shewes what the members of the Church of Corinth were at the time of Pauls writing to them Answer then that they were on ought to have been visible Saints at the first erection of that Church yet it shewes not that all the Church-members he writes to were visible Saints for many known evill livers were known Members The denomination of Saints is a parce meliore that is from the better part c. The Text shewes what they either were at first Reply or ought to have been or what some of them were at that time and ought all of them to have been viz. sanctified in Christ called to be Saints as Hemingius Gualter Pareus upon that place do note for they say a definition of a Church may thence be fetched And what rule soever there is in Scripture requiring that any be Saints the same rule requires that all be Saints And there may many Arguments be brought to hold it forth 1. The end of Church-fellowship is not conversion but edification Ephes 4.11 12. Acts 9.31 For if it were conversion then all uncoverted ones whether they make profession of faith and repentance or no might enter in that thereby they might attain one end for which they enter as we know Because one end of the preaching of the Word is conversion therefore all may partake of it Jewes Turks Heathens because they may attain one end whereto it serves It is supposed then that the persons that enter into the Church are converted already 2. Excommunication is an ordinance in the Church and one end of it is to recover persons that are desperately sick and ready to die it is in the use of it as physick 1 Cor. 5.5 and therefore supposeth the persons to whom applied to be alive therefore all Church-members are to be reputed in the judgement of charity to be living stones 1 Pet. 2.5 3. If excommunication be an ordinance to throw forth visible sinners of all sorts then the Church should consist of visible Saints 1. It appeareth that all scandalous grosse sinners ought to be cast out from 1 Cor. 5. and that all other sinners which are not seandalous if they will not be healed of their lesser faults and brought to repentance ought to be duly proceeded against untill at last it come to an excommunication Matth. 18.15 16 c. He writes to the Church called to be Saints Answer or called Saints not to the Saints called to be a Church or to the Church constituted of Saints which expression rather of the two proves there was a Church before they were Saints See vers 1. Paul called to be an Apostle then that they were Saints before they were a Church He writes to the Church of God Reply and can there be a Church of God before there be Saints What a Church of God is that which had no visible Saints in it when it was first constituted Surely except you will say they were a Church of God while they were Heathens you must confesse that professing to be turned by the power of the Gospel in a time of persecution from the service of Idols to imbrace the living God in Christ they must be judged visible Saints at the first when they were a Church of God And these words Paul called to be an Apostle will not avail you for Paul was a man and a Christian too before an Apostle but what would you have the Church of God to be before they were visible Saints But how appeareth it that all the honourable Titles and Epithets given Paul Answer are given with relation to Church-members The Corinthians were enriched by God in all utterance c. Will you thence conclude that all Church-members must be so c. There are some names which shew the intrinsecall nature of the things to which they are given Reply and they do agree to all of that kinde As if one should write to the Army of

concession that the Church Reply Acts 2. bad no ordinary Officers for none were then appointed and yet they were a church and Acts 14.23 shewes so much they were churches before the Apostles ordained Elders in them and this is all that the Position drives at And though there were generall Elders which had inspection over all Churches yet neither these nor any other Elders do * Come into the essence of Churches ingredi essentiam Ecclesiarum nor is it any formall reason why a Company of Believers are a Church because they have Elders whether extraordinary or ordinary for were it so then their priviledge to choose their Officers would be when they have Officers for then they are a Church and it would follow that they cannot choose Officers when they want them and have most need of them for then they are not a Church and so can have no such power and it is very uncomfortable for the death of an Officer might be the unchurching of a people But that which may give more satisfaction in this matter is the consideration of such Scriptures where the members mentioned apart from the Officers are called the Church of God Acts 20.28 the Elders are the persons spoken to feed the flock over which the holy Ghost hath made you over-seers the believing Ephesians are the flock who are also called the Church of God purchased with his blood * Acts 20. vers 28. So Phil. 1.1 So that a Christian people united together with an intent of constant congregating to enjoy Ordinances for their edification are a church without officers or if they have them yet without consideration of them POSITION IX She hath also full and free power to choose her own Officers without the help of Synod This though not so fully is asserted by R.M. W.T. to C. H. Classis or Presbyterie Act. 1.15 Acts. 6.3 14.23 In Church-affairs Answer of weighty and difficult common concernment as election and ordination of Elders excommunication of an Elder it is safe and wholesome and an boly Ordinance to proceed with consultation and consent of the churches Prov. 11.14 (p) Cottons Keys p. 55. Reply This Position saith not that a particular Congregation or Church of Brethren have full and free power to choose her own Officers without asking or seeking the help of advice and direction from Synod Classis or Presbyterie nor do we think that there is any such meaning in it but without authoritative help of a Synod Classis or Presbyterie for in all those places of the Acts the churches had the help of direction but they were not strengthened by the interposition of the authority of the Apostles or of any other You will not take upon you hastily to censure the many notable precedents of ancient and latter Synods Answer who have put forth the Acts of power in ordination and excommunication (q) Cottons Keys p. 28. Reply 1. The grave Author of this speech meddles not with election in that place quoted but this Position runs of election 2. He keeps himself from an hasty and peremptory censuring of ancient precedents who have put forth acts of power in ordination and excommunication but he declares his opinion against it and we approve as well of his modesty as we do agree with him in his judgement We hold it a priviledge of the people especially if they proceed wisely and piously to elect their Officers Answer and an injury to obtrude any on them without their consent 1. What people are these that have this priviledge Reply Cottons Keys pag. 12. the Author whom you make use of so oft calls them Church of Brethren is it a people-priviledge or a church-priviledge to choose Ecclesiasticall Officers 2. What if they do not proceed wisely and piously is their priviledge lost must it be taken from them and then it would be no injury to obtrude an Officer on them It is an Officers priviledge to rule the Church but what if he do it not wisely and piously is the privilege then lost it is a Master of a Families priviledge to rule his own house but what if he do it not wisely and piously must it now be taken from him or rather must he not be directed and exhorted to do it rightly and the priviledge remain stil with him so of the people we have Junius of our minde herein (a) Junius Eccles p. 1963 Answer But let us view your Scriptures Seeing that you agree with us in the substance of the Position Reply and yet immediatly bring all the Scriptures brought by us to strengthen the same into question and none of them will passe for currant with you it had been convenient that you should have produced the Scriptures which do sway you unto the asserting of the same thing that it might have appeared to the world that you have found out some better bottome to set such a tenet on then we have produced For we conceive that if the Scriptures you oppugn are not pertinent to prove the Position there will be none found in all the new Testament but they will be more liable to exception then these and it is to be noted that all our modern Writers that we know of that grant any liberty to the people of choosing their own Officers they do it upon the evidence of these Scriptures which are excepted against in so much that we know not what should be the reason why you grant the thing alledged and bring no proofes of your own to confirm it and yet allow not of ours which we bring except you be resolved to contradict all that comes from us But what are your exceptions let us prove what weight is in them you say The Assembly Answer Acts 1. it is likely was not a body politick but occasionall only no part of Church-government being as yet set on foot here were not all but some of the sounder members of the Jewish Church and they had no commission to separate from the Jewes before Acts 2.40 the Company was not without Elders all the Churches and Elder at that time in the world were present if there had been any more Elders they must have conveened upon that occasion the choice was limited by the Apostle Peter First to the persons present Secondly to those that accompanied the Apostles all the time c. and was determined by God whose it was to choose an Apostle by his directing of the lot The meaning is Reply they were not a Christian Church but some of the sounder members of the Jewish Church and not yet separated from the Jewish Church and then 1. There is a contradiction unto some other of the exceptions which follow If they were no Christian Church how were the Apostles Elders of it and how was it an Oecumenicall councell all the Churches and Elders in the world being at it 2. Is there not some mistake in point of truth For those persons who were commanded to separate Acts

A DEFENCE Of sundry POSITIONS And Scriptures alledged to justifie the Congregationall-way charged at first to be weak therein impertinent and unsufficient By R. H. M.A. of Magd. Col. Cambr. in his Examination of them But upon further Examination cleerly manifested to be Sufficient Pertinent and full of Power By Samuel Eaton Teacher AND Timothy Taylor Pastor Of The Church in Duckenfield in Cheshire Isai 26.12 13. LORD thou wilt ordaine peace for us for even thou hast wrought all our works in us O LORD our God other lords besides thee have had dominion over us but by thee only will we make mention of thy Name Published according to Order LONDON Printed by Matthew Simmons for Henry Overton and are to be sold at his shop in Popes-head Alley 1645. To the Christian Reader IT was not our purpose when these Examinations of our Reverend and beloved Brother and neighbour came forth to have made any Reply to them First because we thought there was that already published to the world on both sides which was more weighty then either the Examinations or Answer to them were like to be deemed Secondly because we apprehended some other persons rather called to this Work then our selves because their Positions and Scriptures brought by them are professedly and nominally opposed as the margent declares Thirdly because we were unwilling to ingage our selves or others in the Controversie further then we should be compelled knowing it to be one evill under the Sun in men and perhaps in some good men that they will strive for Victory rather then for Truth And as it is with an unyeelding spirit it will contend for the-last word So it is in publishing of books who shall Print last in his own Cause We chose therefore rather to practise in silence according to our own light and quietly to follow the Work we are called to in these parts then to implead those that should plead against the Way we walk in Therefore when the Examinations first came down though we read them yet we minded not to answer them for three moneths almost the thoughts of intermedling in the Work now effected by us slept with us At last we were awakened to consider what was fit to be done by us And after some consultation thought our selves bound to vindicate wronged Scriptures Positions Persons that which bred a change in our mind was First an expectation and earnest desire in these parts that something might be answered thereunto or the Cause yeelded Secondly the eyes of many were upon us rather then upon others First because the Author of the Examinations is our neighbour Secondly because many of these things have been discussed betwixt him and us Thirdly because it is thought that some of the Positions have been taken up by him as in discourse they fell from us Fourthly because it is believed by many that there is so much strength in the Examinations or weaknesse in us that we cannot answer them Fifthly because the Examinations are magnified in Pulpits Lastly because the Person whom we most eyed to have vindicated the Scriptures and Assertions built upon them we heare is called away out of the kingdome Hereupon we came to set upon the Work And our request good Reader is this that the plainnesse of the style may be passed over and all weaknesse in expression and if there be any strength of Argument that it be kindly accepted for the truths sake We professe to be friends to the Truth so farre as we know it and shall think it the worst work that ever we did in our lives if we should make any to erre from the Truth We intreat God as we are able to lead both thee and us into all truth S. E. T. T. Mr. Prynne his Judgement touching the only and speediest way for the present Reformation in his last Book called A Vindication page 57. ANd if our Assembly and Ministers will but diligently preach against that Catalogue of scandalous Sins and sinners they have presented to the Parliament and the Parliament prescribe severe temporall Lawes and Punishments against the same and appoint good Civill Magistrates to see them duly executed inflicted I am confident that this would work a greater Reformation in our Church and State in one half yeer then all the Church-discipline and censures now so eagerly contested for will do in an age and will be the only true way and speediest course to reform both Church and State at once which I hope the Parliament will consider of and take care that our Ministers like the Bishops formerly may not now be taken up with ruling and governing but preaching and instructing which is work enough wholly to ingrosse their time and thoughts To our Reverend Brother the EXAMINER Good Brother THough we often encountered one another within private walls yet we little thought to have been Antagonists in print you have provoked us to it and so have those that are either so ingaged to your person or to your Examinations as to make their boast of them We think you will confesse our candor in proceeding we have not stept out of the way to intermeddle with by-standers or by-matters nor have we racked any thing we intreat the like usage from you Take up the pith and substance of the Argument and let alone expressions and matters of that nature and shew us our errour and we shall not be offended but thankfull That deep heavie charge in the first part of your Preface whether it might have been spared till you had seen how you had sped we leave for you to consider As also whether you had honoured your self more and wronged us lesse if your Examinations had come forth without so cutting and stinging a censure Beware of giving such blowes again in words and do it if you can in the weight of your Arguments and you shall be blamelesse We will beare it and amend by it as being Your loving Brethren SAMUEL EATON TIMOTHY TAYLOR The Contents of the Book The Scriptures opened or alledged in this Treatise you have in a Table at the end thereof and the page wherein they are cited The POSITIONS as they are laid down by Mr. R. H. in his Examination of them are the summe and substance of the whole Book as being the Subject herein debated whereof the most of them are explained and defended some in some proofs cited are mistaken as Position 20 and 25. The POSITIONS are these in order following POSITION 1. GAthering of Churches in the name of Christ and setting up of Church-ordinances cannot be unlawfull for want of a Commandement from man as appeareth by the Doctrine and Practice of the Apostles Acts 4.19 5.29 page 1 POSIT 2. Seven eight or nine may make a Church In Adams and Noahs time there was not above seven or eight will you deny them the being of a Church What will you make of Christ and of his Family which were not above twelve besides himself and of the first

2.40 were they added unto such which were not separated The Text saith there were added to them three thousand fouls to them to whom to those who are yet members of the Jewish church then these separated ones who were added were members of the Jewish church by their addition for they came into their state to whom they were added and so they were separated and not separated which yet agrees not to vers 47. where they are all together called a Church 3. It is impertinently alledged that the company was not without Elders the Apostles were present For was the company straitned in their liberty by the presence of these Elders or rather were they not acquainted with their priviledge in this matter by these Elders When as else they might not have known it but you say a little after they were limited but what is this limiting nothing else but necessary direction and the limitation is but in one thing though you would have it in two the words are these Wherefore of these that have accompanied us c. For ought that appears all that had accompanied them were present and who could be so sit to be an Apostle as one of those who had accompanied them 1 Joh. 1.1 4. If the election of an Apostle did belong to God in reference to the particular person yet they proceeded as far as they could therein and agreed in the denomination of two and when the lot determined whether of the two should be the man the Text saith vers 26. by the common suffrage of them all Matthias was numbred among the eleven Apostles 5. If all Elders and Churches must conveen upon occasion of electing of an Apostle because he is Pastor of all Churches why must they not be gathered together upon occasion of ordaining an Apostle But we reade but of one Church and the Elders thereof present at the onlaining of Paul Acts 13.2.3.23 whereupon Paul calls himself 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Rom. 1.1 As for the Deacons and Overseers for the power Answer though people may better discern of mens sitnesse and ability for that Office then for the Ministry Why are Deacons and Overseers for the poor made Synonymies and confounded Reply is this the reason to make the world believe that we have had Deacons amongst us because we have had Over-seers for the poor but if we have had Deacons when were they ordained who ever put their hands upon them according to the pattern Acts 6.6 or are they called so because their work is only to oversee the poor we conceive their office extends further But of that in its own place It is added Answer The people can better discern c. 1. They had direction to inable them to discern aright in choosing Deacons Reply and by direction they will be able to discern aright in choosing other Officers 2. A godly people or church rightly constituted for the matter will be able to discern of wholesome and powerfull Doctrine and if they want skill to judge of humane learning they may with little ado be informed 3. If your meaning be that upon this ground the people may choose Deacons but not other Officers you might have done well to have limited what you before granted and in stead of saying We hold it the priviledge of the people to choose their own Officers you would have said We hold it the priviledge of the people to choase their own Deacons but no Officers else And their liberty of choosing was a good means at that time to abate their discontentments because of former neglect Answer 1. Then it was granted to them of courtesie Reply and out of policie and it did no way belong unto them why then did you say before We hold it the priviledge of the people 2. Doth any thing appear to make this a reason that this liberty was granted to them Would not they have been as well pleased if the Apostles had done it if it belonged to the Apostles and not to them they all knew the Apostles were more able to choose then they and what the Apostles did gave better content for all magnified the Apostles besides is it likely that the Apostles would nourish a sinfull humor of discontent in the people by giving them a priviledge that belonged not to them Good brother take heed how you attempt to evade the strength of plain Scripturall proofes by such dangerous glosses as these Yet at their election Answer there were all the Churches and Elders in the world The meaning is Reply there was but one Church and the Elders thereof at that time in the world and they were there It is true the members were there for the Brethren were they that elected and the Apostles were there which were extraordinary Elders for they were the persons that directed but what did they act further Did they interpose their authority in election Did they take it out of the Brethrens hards Did they not manifestly put it into their hands in commanding them to look out seven men c. Acts 6.3 Answer Your selves acknowledge Synods an Ordinance of Christ in sundry cases Reply Not the Authority of Synods by way of jurisdiction in any case Answer Paul and Barnabas ordained Eders by suffrages given by lifting up and stretching out of hands for so the Greek word signifies but that the people did ordain Elders by election without the Apostles it saith not but rather the contrary viz. that they stayed from election and ordination of Elders till the Apostles came to advise and assist them therein the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth rather to give then to gather saffrages as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth imply the election of more Churches then one and yet it imports the election of no more Churches then those there spoken of so the phrase Paul and Barnabas 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth not imply that any Church or other person besides Paul and Barnabas did elect these Presbyters 1. We do not affirm that the people did it without the Apostles Reply For we conceive the Apostles guided them as at other times they had done other Churches 2. Concerning their staying from election and ordination we reade not of it and therefore dare conclude nothing about it concerning their advising we grant it but what other assistance they assorded we understand not unlesse it be said that they led the people by their own suffrage and so they might give their suffrage as you say the word signifies and yet gather the peoples also But that they should give their own suffrage by lifting up their own hands without the peoples seems unreasonable For when hath it ever been known that two persons alone in the presence of many others have gone to voting by lifting up of hands the one must gather the vote and the other must give it that is the one must say to the other Paul to Barnabas If thou be for such a man to be Elder in this Church manifest it