hath the Church of England beene duly conuinced It is out of all doubt that men which erre may â—e conuinced by any particular persons whatsoeuer for it is the power and light of Gods word onely which conuinceth but that which maketh men to be cast forth as heathen for obstinacie when they are conuinced is not as I haue shewed obstinacie agaynst pryuate admonitions but the despising the iudgement and power of the Church when she hath conuinced and reproued So that your passage is here agayne stopped and ye are cut off but yet I will follow ye in this yeelding this scope to see when or who they be of particular persons which haue duely conuinced the Church of England and al her assemblies of such errors First for the martyrs in our Church yee haue set them vpon the shore safely landed out of all danger of wilfull obstinacie for pag. 181. thus ye write These godly martyrs so lately escaped out of the smoakie furnace of the popish Church coulde not so clerely discerne and sodainely enter into the heauenly and beautifull order of a true established Church And those godly men being so vnexpert and vnexercised in his heauenly worke neuer hauing long liued in seen or heard of any orderly communion of Saints any true established Church vpon the earth of so many hundreth yeares neuer since the generall defection of Antichrist no meruaile I say if they erred in setting vp the frame But what then should we persist in their errors especially should we reiect the true patterne of Christs Testament c. Thus farre be your wordes Master Barrow in which the reader may see that ye haue as I say landed those godly men out of all daungers which set vp the frame of our Church because they did as you say nay they could see no better But our Church now can not be excused because she hath reiected the heauenly patterne being brought Indéede I am of this minde to answere your wordes as they lye that right excellent men come short in some things about the ordering of Gods Church and especially at the beginning because time is a teacher But those men were not so blinde as you make them or so vnexpert in the heauenly worke Many of them liued long after they came out of popery They did read the scriptures both for other poynts of doctrine and for the gouernement and all the auncient histories of the Church and in my iudgement might haue bâ—en able in those dayes after twenty years separatioÌ„ froÌ„ popery to see as much as some in these dayes that haue béen but foure or fine yeares from the Bowling Alleyes Agayne I am of this mind that when any error in the Church appeareth it ought if it can bee brought to passe to be reformed And that they doo greeuously sinne which reiect the truth agaynst their knowledge and conscience to the dammage of Gods people but there lieth the matter howe you can proue that our Church is conuinced We must see who they bee that haue layd this patterne which ye speake of before her which was not layd before those blessed martyrs and conuinced here let vs come to the matter In some Ceremonies and in the manner of gouernment our Church doth differ from other Churches Those Churches indéede haue shewed their reasons why they vse not such ceremonies and gouernment but yet they condemne not our Church for not being perswaded by them for they do know that in some matters of controuersie it falleth out often that men may thinke they haue truth and be deceiued also that the truth may be shewed and yet men that erre not conuinced in their conscience vnto whom it is shewed This is your great ignorance Master Barrow which imagine that so soone as a truth is shewed in any matter the partie that erreth is by and by conuinced in his conscience There were thousands in the Church of Ierusalem Act. 21. which erred groslie about the retayning the ceremoniall law and the holy Apostles were driuen to beare with them when they could not perswade them from it and that many yeares And who can conuince errors like the blessed Apostles And you must consider here further that euen those marryrs in our Church whom you so fully cleare had the same paterne layd before them then which our Church hath had layd before her since for they did know that there was another forme of gouernement vsed at Geneua and in some other places and they did not onely reade their writings which shewed the reasons for the same but also some of them as Bishop Hooper and Archdeacon Philpot were trauailers euen to that ende and purpose and liued in some did see if not al yee some number of the reformed Churches beyond the seas Moreouer the rest of the martyrs had here among them out of diuers reformed Churches as Peter Martyr Bucer Fagius Alasco and others Howe ignorantly then and how falsely Master Barrow doo ye affirme that those godly martyrs had neuer liued in seene nor heard of any orderly communion of Saints any true established Church If those martyrs had the very same patterne layd before them which hath béene layd since before our Church and were not conuinced Peradunture you will say it was nothing so fully and so clearely brought and layd it before the martyrs as it hath been layd before our Church Then if I demaund here who they be that haue more fully and more clearely layd this patterne before our Church and thus conuinced her whether your selues alone or partly your selues and partly others I suppose yee will take it but in parte vnto your selues let vs then begin with these other and then come to you The Church of England at the first as you coÌ„fesse set vp the frame as they were perswaded in conscience to be very right and agréeable to Gods word Since that there hath risen controuersie at home about some Ceremonies and obseruations and about the gouernement Reasons and allegations haue beene brought to shew that there be hurtfull things amisse in both and many are perswaded But now the visible Church of England the prince and all those which excercise the chiefe power therein haue stood and doe stand resolute that the ceremonies and obseruations are agreeable to Gods worde or at the least not contrary but tollerable and that gouernement is such as is by Gods word most fit and profitable for our Church They stand vpon their reasons and allegations for this And many thousands in the land both men and women which professe the Gospel and fayth of Christ either know not what the things in controuersie or if they doe knowe them yet are perswaded that our worship and gouernment are right Tell me then M. Barrow seeing ye confesse the martyrs were not conuinced how you know for certainetie that all these are conuinced in their conscience because matters haue béen more fully opened and so continue wilfully obstinate against the knowen truth Hath God giuen
the Lord called the Children which were borne vnto them his sonnes Ezech. 16. which nothing at all perteined vnto him but by a speciall blessing So when he hath left his couenant in France Italie Germany Spayne England since these Prouinces haue beene oppressed with the tyrannie of Antichrist yet that his Couenant might remaine inuiolable he first there preserued Baptisme the testimony of his couenant which being consecrate with his owne mouth retaineth her owne force notwithstanding the vngodlines of man then furthermore he hath by his prouidence brought to passe that there should other remnants also remaine least the Church should vtterly perish And as oftentimes buildings are so pulled downe that the foundations and ruines remaine so hee hath not suffered his Church to be subuerted by Antichrist euen from the foundation or to be laide euen with the ground howsoeuer to punish mens ingratitude which had despised his word he hath suffered horrible shaking and dissipation to chance but euen after the laying wast hee would haue the building remaine halfe pulled downe Whereas therefore wee will not simplie graunt to the Papists the title of the Church we doo not therefore deny that there bee Churches among them but onely wee contend about the true and lawful ordering of the Church which is required both in the Communion of the holy things which are the signes of the profession also of doctrine most chiefelie Daniel and Paule foretold that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God among vs wee account the Bishop of Rome the Captaine and standerd bearer of that wicked and abominable Kingdome That his seate is placed in the Temple of God thereby is meant that his Kingdome shall be such as may abolish neither the name of Christ nor of the Church Hereby therefore it is manifest that we denie not but that there remaine Churches also vnder his tyrannie but yet such as hee hath prophaned with sacrilegious impietie such as hee hath afflicted with outragious dominion such as he hath corrupted and almost killed with euill and deadly doctrines as it were with poysoned drinkes in which Christ lieth halfe buried the Gospel ouerwhelmed godlines expelled the worship of God almost abolished furthermore in which all things are so confused and out of order that there appeareth the face of Babylon rather then of the holy citie of God Briefelie I say they be Churches in as much as the Lord dooth there merueilouslie preserue the remnants of his people howsoeuer miserably dispersed and scatred and in as much as there remaine some badges or seales of the Church and these especially whose efficacy neither the craft of the diuell nor the wickednes of men can destroy but on the other side because those notes or markes are blotted out which wee ought chiefely to respect in this controuersie I say that euerie one of their assemblies and the whole bodie wanteth the lawfull forme of a Church Thus farre be Master Caluines words tell me now Master Barrow is Master Caluine to be accounted among the learned Diuines Dooth he say the Church is in the papacy that is no more but that the Elect are among them as in other places of the World Looke also what I haue said touching this whole matter which he dooth not here say yea euen from that which is in Ezechiel 16. Where you aske who but this peruerse fellow speaking of me could thus stumble and cauill at those words my sonnes and my daughters c But if it bee not plaine enough which Master Caluine saith in this which I haue recited to proue that you would beare the simple in hand that the learned Diuines are of another minde and yet vnderstand not their minde I will adde a little more out of the same Author In his Epistle 404. thus hee writeth Quòd ecclesiae reliquias manere in papatu dico nō restringo ad electos qui illic dispersi sunt sed ruinas dissipatae ecclesiae illic extare intelligo Ac ne mihilongis rationibus disputandum sit nos pauli autoritate contentos esse decet qui Antichristum in temple deisessurum pronuntiat quamquam hoc rationibus satis validis me probasse puto ecelesiam licet semiruptam imo silubet diruptam ac deformem aliquam tamen manere in papatu In that I say the remnants of the Church remaine in the papacy I doo not restraine it to the Elect which are dispersed there but I meane that the ruines of a dispersed Church are extant among them And that I may not dispute the matter with reasons at large it becommeth vs to be content and satisfied with the authority of Paule which pronounceth that Antichrist shall sit in the Temple of God Albeit I suppose I haue proued this with reasons strong enough that there remaineth neuerthelesse some Church in the papacy although halfe broken downe or if you will broken downe and deformed Also Master Beza Epistle 81. page 356. For the remnants of the Church in the papacy is of the same minde affirming that there remaine not onely Gods Elect but also the Sacrament of Baptisme and sundry poynts of sound doctrine Now let vs see what horrible blasphemies you say will followe of this that I say Antichrist should sit in the Church and yet the same remayne still the visible Church so farre foorth as Master Caluines words and Master Bezaes doo import For when you will needes haue it that God hath giuen me vp into a reprobate sense the matter toucheth not me so much as Master Caluine and Beza and many other most worthie men which so expound it Nay if God open your eyes you shall see whether you doo not like Rabsaka reproach the Lord God who hath vttered it by his Apostle The first is this If Antichrist may be sayd to sit raigne and remayne in the Church of God then Christ is not made heire and Lord of all and set as King vpon Mount Sion A worthie collection is it not because God in righteous iudgement for the punishment of those that receiued not the loue of the trueth giueth power vnto Satan and Antichrist to seduce the multitude in the visible Church Christ is not heire of all things nor raigneth as K. vpon Mount Sion Wil you say if the diuell haue a kingdome in the world Christ is not Lord of the whole world Mount Sion may be vsed for the visible Church but most properly for the inuisible which is the Communion of Saints of which are none but the elect Satan and Antichrist are not able to pluck one of these out of his hand he raigneth ouer them and in them Moreouer he raigneth ouer the whole visible Church and ouer the whole world for hee is ascended and filleth all things so that Satan Antichrist and all Tyrants can proceed no further then his will The next is If Antichrist sit in the Church then Christ is either cast out of his house made subiect vnto Antichrist or els deuideth with him Christ
the visible Church This matter Master Barrow hath beene as throughly pursued by the Papists as euer you or any Donatist shall be able and such answere they haue receiued from the Churches that haue made separation from them as that they haue no cause to glory The ten Tribes remayned still in some sorte the visible Church and vnder the Couenant as I haue prooued before but yet they were not such a true Church as men might ioyne withall in their worship and therefore when Ieroboam had set vp the golden Calues the Leuites departed from them and went to Ierusalem 2. Chron 11. 23. 14. Then you come to expound how this may bee taken that Antichrist shal sit in the Temple of God And first as you take it his sitting in the Temple of God may be vnderstood as in regarde that he tooke his originall before he was reuealed Let any simple man looke vpon the wordes of Saint Paul and see whether he speake of any such close sitting Then that he should sit where sometimes the true Churches haue beene which hee should so destroy and waste as there should be no shape or steps of any of them left vpon the earth as it was foretolde Matth. 24 29. Reuel 6. 14. See what two places Master Barrow hath found to proue Antichrist should vtterly destroy the visible Church These be the wordes And immediately after the oppression of those dayes the Sunne shall be darkned the Moone shall not giue her light and the starres shall fall from heauen and the powers of heauen shall be shaken This is spoken of Christs comming to iudgment and is meant indeed of the Sunne the Moone and stars themselues and therefore most foolishly concluded that Antichrist shall vtterly destroy the visible Church And for the place in the Reuelation The heauen departed away as a booke that is roled vp you may euen as well conclude that the whole Church in the world vtterly fayled as to say therefore Antichrist vtterly defaced the visible Church And if you will haue the matter tried by so darke a place your light had neede to be great But your pretiest reasons of all are yet behinde Antichrist shall be lifted vp aboue all that is called God this can not be done by any Minister in the Church seeing euery soule must bee subiect They say it will weary an old bodie to followe a Child vp and down all day that can newe goe I am sure it will weary any man to follow you Master Barrow in all your trifles God commandeth euery soule shall submit it selfe vnto the higher powers doth it here vpon follow that if a king vsurp that which belongeth to God they must therein â—â—ay him so long as he remayneth their king Also when it is sayd that he is God you say what blasphemie will not insue if this should be literally taken It may as well be inforced say you by this place that Antichrist is God as that the place where he raigneth is the Temple of God You will not haue this place expounded literally and then what shall we make of it or howe shall we finde Antichrist May he not be the Turke or some other If the Papists could proue yâ— which you speake but with some little shew how much would they glory For grant theÌ„ a mysticall sense of these words and they will carie it whither they list To exalt himselfe aboue all that is called God is literally spoken and literally fulfilled when the Pope exalteth himselfe aboue all Kinges and Emperours which are called Gods So that he shall sit as God in the Temple of God shewing himselfe that he is God What blasphemie is it which will ensue if these wordes bee all construed literally after the Grammaticall sense The wordes doo not import that he shall bee God indeede but that he shall take that to himselfe which belongeth to the most high God The thing which deceiueth you Master Barrow is in the word shewing for euery thing that a shew is made of is not so in truth There is a true shew and there is a false shew when one doth arrogate that to himselfe and bâ—ast of it which belongeth not vnto him As Antichrist vsurping not onely an earthly dignitie but euen the high power and authority of God is therefore sayd to shewe himselfe to bée God And now wheras I stand vpon this that the Church of England was a true Church of God before popery and that in popery it stood a member or part of the vniuersall visible Church fo farre as the remnants of Christs Church remained not vtterly defaced by Antichrist that the casting out of Antichrist and his lawes and vsurped power is not the beginning but the restoring and repayring or recouering a Church from miserable desolation And as Iosias and other godly kings of Iuda by terrour of punishment draue Idolaters which outwardly stood vnder the Couenant being cyrcumcised from false worship vnto the lawes of God so Quéene Elizabeth hath done with her subiects being baptized and thereby bound to renounce false worship and to imbrace the holy doctrine of the Couenant Here you say that to make my conclusion follow I must proue and make euident demonstration by Scripture that the Church of England was rightly gathered vnto and established in that holy fayth and order which Christ hath left vnto his Church in vniuersall and particular according to the rules and examples in his Testament Next that they fell not away froÌ„ this holy fayth in the time of popery and that now they continue and faythfully walke in the same fayth and order If I had done this you say I had powerfully conuinced and stopped the mouthes of all Schismatikes for euer I sée you can make your mach wisely Master Barrow I must make euident demonstration by the Scriptures of what of that which was not mentioned by the Scriptures For there is no particular mention of planting the fayth of Christ in England If wee shew it out of auncient records then doe I not saâ—ilfie your desire at all Agayne it must be shewed by the Scriptures that the Church of England receiued orderly the fayth and order of Christ not onely in generall but in euery particular This is a surer knot than the former And me thinkes you should bee a little more kinde for the honour of your countrey not that any honour is to be rendred against truth but whereas you confesse that a true Church may erre in diuers things so that it be not conuinced sinne obstinately If the planters of the fayth and discipline of Christ in England did erre it some things which yet you know not how can you tell but that they did it in simplicitie wee sée that in auncient times and of late dayes GOD hath had many Children in England which haue been begotten and nourished vp in the land and haue acknowledged her their mother And we are sure herevpon that God hath put his couenant of mercy
hereticks shall not be able to finde the like for the slanderous presumption prowd contempt The preaching of the Gospel it selle in our church ye do most prophanely blaspheme in saying that ther with as with a goodly embrodered couerlet and fine shéets of Egipt we couer Iesabels bed hide al our fornicatioÌ„s When ye say it as a sweet whistle as a charme yea when ye tearme it the whores scarfes to couer her shame pag. 141 Also wher as in many places of this land but chiefly when the Spaniards came to inuade there were fasts the word of God preached in some places by two in some by 3. ministers this ye call a stage play pag. 97. Ye say ye are no Donatists nor Schismaticks out of that which I haue written to shewe that ye are full Donatists ye gather sundry dissimilitudes betwixt your selues and them Ye might perhaps by diligence finde out some other things in which ye are not like them as it may be they did weare blew caps or gréene cloaks which ye doe not The truth is you do agrée with theÌ„ in the sum substance of all that fowlest things which ye cannot denie at least if ye come behinde them in any one poynt ye are before them in two other for it To follow ye in all points wher in ye erre tither with theÌ„ or with some other as wicked would be ouer tedious onely I note these and set them downe together 1 First that ye do most presumptuously against the expresse rules of Gods word intrude your selues into the Lords office in taking vpon ye to condemne the whole Church of England as separated from Christ refut page 23. 2 That ye condemne al the Churches in Europe which professe the Gospell that their people are but heapes of prophane men dise page 33. That their worship is blasphemous Idolatrie in as much as they haue leiturgies which is as ye say to haue another Gospell another Testament Refut page 244. That there is no ministry of the Gospel in al Europ Disc page 104. that the gouernement of al Churches is false and wicked Refut page 74. 75. Discou page 189. 190. 3 That ye confound errors and heresies as to make all errors heresies being conuinced to his conscience that erreth held and to make none to be heresies vnles he be conuinced that erreth Refu page 24. 4 That with Nouatus the wicked heretick ye take away all hope of saluatioÌ„ froÌ„ those which offend of knowledge willingly in as much as ye make euery obstinate persisting in the least error to separate froÌ„ the faith Communion of Christ pa. 24. 5 That ye deny the distinction of errors fundamentall and not fund amentall calling it popish Refut page 26. 6 That yee iudge of the whole Church to bee conuinced in conscience as of one man page 24. 7 That ye hold it a due conuincing not onely of particular persons but also of whole Churches and such as doth cast them forth as heathen so soone as any priuat man dooth reproue the least error they forthwith do not reforme the same page 24. 8 That ye condemne al without exception both learned and vnlearned men and wemen young and old which professe the Gospell in publick assemblies vpon false accusations without admonition in matters wherein if there be errors yet excellent godly men haue erred in them finally euen by your â—wne confession Refut page 180. 9 That ye say the best part of the booke of common praier is no better then a peece of swines flesh and abomination to the Lord. Refut page 48. 10 That ye say the greatest minister hath no more power to binde or loose the least member then the said member hath to binde or loose him and so with the Swinckfeldians destroy the whole power of the ministry page 37. 11 That ye speake so prophanely of singing of Psalmes and so dishonorably of Christian people Discou page 180. 12 That most offensiuely and prophanely ye tearme the articles of our faith our forged patcherie Discou page 76. 13 That ye deny men are to ioyne in that worship where any errors whatsoeuer doo appeare and are not reformed and so open a most wide gap vnto all Schismes Refut page 27. 14 That you are so grosly ignorant how the false Apostles vrged circumcision and so from the words of S. Paule to the Galathians affirme that paying tithes or the obseruing any times as it is in our church is an error fundameÌ„tal Refut pa. 36 15. That ye iudge them to be no true Churches which haue not excommunication pag. 54. 73. 16 That ye denie baptisme to the children of open sinners which yet remayne in the Church Refut pag. 58. 59. 17 That ye make the stablenes of Gods couenant towards his Church to depend vpon the works of men Refut pag. 60. 18 That ye hold circuÌ„cision amoÌ„g the ten tribes or in Iuda in time of Idolatrie was no true seale of the couenant yet ye say that coÌ„cerning the outward cutting it was true circuÌ„cision the like ye say of baptisme administred in popery Ref. pag. 64. 19 That in your Disc from pag. 16. to pag. 45. and Refut pag. 97. ye take vpon ye to confute almost all which M Caluiue hath written against the Donatists Annabaptists holding that the prayers and Sacraments the consciences of all that communicate together are defiled where any open sinners are admitted 20 That ye deny the distinction of the external court the court of conscience so take away the power of the ciuil magistrate the power of the Church in making lawes in things indifferent taking vpon ye to confute M. Cal. Disc pa 94. 95. 21 That ye condemne Logick Rethorike and other liberal Artes. Refut pag 117. 22 That ye would haue al authors the bible only excepted cast aside in the study of diuinitie Disc pag. 146. 23 That ye wickedly blaspheme the operatioÌ„ motions of Gods spirit in the harts of men at the preaching of the gospel as if they were but the illusions of the diuel Disco pa. 141. 156 24 That ye speake so reprochfully of all the most excellent learned diuines which God hath raysed vp in al Churches coÌ„demning them of pride ignorance rashnes sensualitie c. Disco from pag. 140. vnto pag. 191. 25 That ye still stand to maintaine that priuate men may assemble and erect a Church with all the offices officers Refut pag. 191. 26 That ye affirme there bee no true ministers any where to be found vpoÌ„ earth nor yet any extraordinary ministers to be looked for therfore meere priuate men are as ye say to erect and establish the Church Refut pag. 196. 27 That ye affirme these priuate men are not to stay for the Prince Refut pag. 196. 28 That ye maintaine that no fault is to be tolerated in the church but if any priuate man do espie a fault and reproue it if they will not amend it he is to forsake that church This is your whole practise I will not stand to lay open euery particular but vpon these conclude that seeing ye hold so many foule errors and with such outrage in your dealing God hath not sent ye nor set ye a work more then he sent the Donatists and Annabaptists but Satan hath seduced ye ye labor to seduce others And if it please God I beseech him for his sonns sake to open your eyes and to giue ye some spark of waâ—â—â—orepent Amen FINIS