faith but only Opinion or humane belief ANSVVER THe Paper may be resolved into a Supposition and a Reason and a Conclusion To these in order First The Supposition It is not sufficient to make one a Catholick that he believe the same things that a Catholick doth believe unless the Catholick Church be the Ground also of his belief c. as in the Amplification of it This Supposition is indeed the main Position of the Pontificians and that which is formally Constitutive of them in that Denomination so that the Answer to it is not made as to a private Opinion or the Opinion of a private Man but as to the General Tenet of their Church in the matter of it In the Terms the word Catholick is to be distinguished for if they mean thereby such an one as they account a Catholick viz. one subject to the Church of Rome upon its own Authority It is very true that None is such a Catholick but he that shall render his belief to them in all things upon this their Proposal and so whatsoever is the Material Object of their faith yet the Formal Object is the Definition of the Church of Rome But if there be a true Sense upon ancient Account also of a Catholick who doth not believe Articles of faith upon the Proposal of the Church then there may be in a true sense a Catholick now who doth not make the Church the last Resolutive of faith For where the Scripture was acknowledged the Rule of Faith and Manners also there the Authority of the Church was not the Determinative thereof And that it was will be made good if it be desired by several Testimonies But secondly give it suppose it that None is a Catholick in a right sense but he that believeth what the Church believeth because the Church believeth it yet the Romane will not gain his purpose thereby unless we would grant this Supposition also That the Church of Rome is the Catholick Church which indeed is meant in the Paper though wisely not expressed But this supposition that the Church of Rome is the Catholick Church is not to be yielded neither in regard of Comprehension for that makes a contradiction nor in regard of Dominion neither for other Churches have not submitted themselves to their Authority this needs no disproof from us till it hath a proof from them And thirdly If we should stand up to all that their Church in particular doth propose and if we should assent to it upon their Account we might be damned not for our want of faith but for Excess of faith in the Object Material and for the Error of faith in the Formal Object For we should believe more then is true if we should believe whatsoever they believe and somewhat also destructive of Articles in the Apostles Creed And we should also believe upon the wrong Inductive which is not the Authority of their Church as we may see now in the Answer to the Reason The Reason hath in it somewhat true somewhat false True that faith is to believe a thing because God revealeth it False that there is no Infallible way without a Miracle of his Revelation coming to us but by their Church which they suppose to be the Church its Proposition For if the question be This how shall we come to know whether the Church of Rome be the right Church upon the Authority whereof we must ground our faith Wherein shall we terminate our belief hereof In the Authority of the Church of Rome or not We are to believe that they say which God hath revealed but the Cause of our belief must be because the Church proposeth it So then we must believe the Church of Rome upon her own testimony and we must resolve all into this that the Church of Rome is the right Church although it be neither a Revelation nor a natural Principle such as this that The Whole is greater then the Part which indeed gave the Occasion of that Check which was given to Rome Greater is the Authority of the world then of a City Orbis quam Urbis S. Jerom. in Ep. ad Evagrium Wherefore if the faith of a Catholick must consist in submitting his understanding and adhering to the Church and in believing every thing because she proposeth it as is said in the Conclusion yet it is not necessary that this Church should be the Church of Rome For this in proportion would be to resolve our Perswasions into the Judgment of particular Men because a Particular Church which according to the Paper makes no Catholick faith but an Opinion or humane belief REPLY IN the Paper received the Position which I gave It is not sufficient c. is disliked because it makes the Catholick Church the Ground of our belief but in truth I find no reason given for such dislike or any thing said against it but what to me seems very strange and is this If there be a true sense upon ancient account also of a Catholick who doth not believe Articles of faith upon the Proposal of the Church c. To which I answer that I would fain know what Catholick upon ancient Account did not believe Articles of faith upon the Proposal of the Church or indeed how can I account him a Catholick without a palpable Contradiction that doth not believe the Catholick Church S. Iren. l. 3. c. 4. saith We ought not to seek among others the truth which we may easily take and receive from the Church seeing that the Apostles have most fully laid up in her as into a rich Treasure-house or place where the Depositum of the Church is kept all things which are of truth that every man that will may take out of her the drink of life For this is the Entrance of life but all the rest are Thieves and Robbers for which cause they are verily to be avoyded But those things which are of the Church are with great diligence to be loved and the tradition of truth is to be received And the said Iren. l. 1. c. 3. telleth us that the Church keepeth with most sincere diligence the Apostles faith and that which they preached S. Cypr. Ep. ad Cornel. avoucheth that the Church alwayes holdeth that which she first knew See also his Ep. 69. ad Florentium And S. Aug. had so great an Estimation of the Church that he sticked not to say cont Ep. Manich. quam vocant Fundamentum c. 5. I would not believe the Gospel except the Authority of the Church did move me thereunto Moreover disputing against Cresconius concerning the baptism of Hereticks l. 1. cont Cresc he useth this discourse Although of this that the baptisme of Hereticks is true baptism there be no certain Example brought forth out of the Canonical Scriptures yet also in this we keep the truth of the said Scriptures when as we do that which now hath pleased the whole Church which the Authority of the Scriptures themselves doth commend That
Church as visible whose proposals we must receive and submit our understanding unto For the Invisible Church or Church as Invisible cannot order us in our Belief because as such it is not known to us I come now to your Testimonies And your first witnesse is Saint Irenaeus Answ We yeild all to Saint Irenaus nothing to you We say we ought not to seek amongst others the truth which we may easily take and receive from the Church c. Yes because the Church is serviceable to the truth by way of Ministery to deliver the Word of Truth to keep the Word of Truth to uphold the Word of Truth And so we acknowledge the Church to be a sufficient Treasury of Truth because we have therein the Scriptures But the Treasury doth not make the Money true nor currant for it is possible that there may be false Money in the Treasury Therefore we must not take it to be lawfull because it cometh out from thence and so the Scripture is not made true to us or the sense of it evidently credible to us because it is in the Church But we must look whose Image and Superscription the Doctrine hath and whether it be right coyn or not and it may seem to be of the right stamp and yet not Therefore saith Origen in his 34. Hom. upon Matth. All Money 1. Every word that hath the Royal stamp of God and the Image of his Word upon it is lawful Therefore we must bring it to the Word for trial We confesse we may take out of her the drink of Life yes but as out of a cistern such water as cometh from the Fountain the Scripture and we drink out of the Scripture the Water of Life as Tertullian in his Prescriptions We deny not this to be the entrance of Life because we have here the means of grace administred And all without the Church we say are thieves and robbers and they ought to be avoyded Yes All without the bosome of the Catholick Church which would break her Peace and rob her Treasury are as thieves and robbers and ought to be avoyded We grant that those things which are of the Church as being true from Scripture in points of faith or not repugnant to Scripture in things of Discipline are with great diligence to be loved And we allow it that the tradition of Truth is to be received Yes thus the tradition of Scripture the word of Truth or the Truth delivered in writing for so Tradition not seldome signifieth Or tradition of Truth which is according to Scripture as the Apostles Creed Not that whatsoever is delivered should be Truth as you would have it but whatsoever Truth is delivered should be received This is all that place as seemeth to me will afford Your second Testimony from the same Father may it self answer the Objection of the former and may confirm my answer Onely let me adde that he speaketh of the Church then purer then now If you will have more said to this you may find it in Saint Cyprians authority which you produce next The Church Catholick alwayes holdeth not maketh that which she first knew Where in Scripture Where else And where the Church holds that which it thus knew we hold with it and are beholden to the Church for holding it forth to us The Church may inform us of it but it doth not certifie it to us therefore doth not infallibly conveigh it the Truth to us therefore is not the ground of Faith The Office of the Church is as a Candlestick to hold the Light of the Word of Truth And moreover though is did alwayes hold that which it knew might it not also hold somewhat which she did not know Though it did hold that which was true might it not hold that which was false in other things As the Church of Rome holds many things which are true wherein we differ not and also many things false wherein she exceeds the Catholick Faith as in regard of Object Now put case therefore that that ancient Church near the Apostles times did not hold any point false but did hold Every point true yet even from hence nothing will be inferred sufficiently to your purpose unlesse you can prove that it was appointed by God to be the ground of Faith by an impossibility of errour in any particular Such is to be the ground of our Faith which is wanting in the Church not privatively as if it had been ever promised but Negatively because not promised to the Church after the Apostles times If it were possible that the Church might not erre yet this would not make us rest our Faith in it Faith hath no sure footing in such contingencies of Truth unlesse you prove a non-possibility of erring you doe nothing But we come now to the signal testimony of this kind that of Saint Austin I would not beleeve the Gospel unlesse the authority of the Church did move me To which I answer First if the testimonies of the other Fathers be defective in clearnesse or fulnesse as to this matter the testimony of one single Father though excellent will not amount to the Verdict of the whole Church and you have no Fathers yet for you for any thing I see Secondly Take this passage by it self and it seems to speak high but consider it with the tenour of his discourse in the whole chapter and it is like you will begin to think that it comes out from him in some heat of spirit to overcome his adversary Thirdly you will be pleased to give me leave to use a Criticisme which admitted according to the reasonablenesse of it will somewhat change the property of this suffrage It appeareth by compare of places in African writers that as is observed their manner was to expresse the tense more then past by the imperfect and also that he in other places must so be understood And if so here then it must refer to him as when he was a Manichee he was moved then as such by the authority of the Church to the embracing of the Gospel And so we grant that the authority of the Church doth move to beleeve the Scriptures But this cometh not to the case in hand which is intended for particular points of faith whether we should ground our faith of them in the Scripture and not in the proposal of the Church Neither is this an universal way as is pretended of coming to the beleef of the Scriptures by the commendation of the Church for some have been added to the Church immediately from the word as in the second of the Acts at the preaching of Saint Peter as is noted And yet fourthly mark the terms It is not said I would not believe the Gospel unlesse the authority of the Church did cause me but unlesse the authority of the Church did move me And thus this Testimony doth very well agree with our Opinion The authority of the Church might move him although he did ground his
as to his own person but not in matters of Faith as to the Church I beleeve that the Church is the Spouse of Christ and that she is without spot or wrinkle or any such thing as to that part which is in Heaven and that the other part of the Church as invisible which is not yet in Heaven shall be without spot or wrinkle or any such thing when it cometh up to Heaven But I do not beleeve that that Text is meant of the Church visible For all here glorious or none not all glorious here therefore none For you find it in the Text that it is to be presented as a glorious Church namely as in the whole But you will not say that every Member of the visible Church is here glorious without spot without wrinkle or any such thing If you do say so you contradict Bellarmin in his third Book of the Militant Church the second chapter who there includes in his Definition of the Church visible even Reprobates wicked and ungodly men and requires there no internal virtue for the constitution of a Member of the Church but onely an external profession of Faith and communion of Sacraments And besides you know glory which is a perfection of Grace doth not belong to the way but the Country in Heaven And besides if you will not beleeve me in such an Exposition beleeve your Estius who with * In his Retractations p. 9. Ed. Frob. but this Quotation not added in my copy to him Saint Austin understands it upon good Reason of the Church invisible as you may see in Estius Comment upon the place And here by the way we have another Testimony of your own against you if you account your Argument from this Text sufficient to your cause And we have St. Austins authority to boot as Estius quotes him And moreover Holynesse is no formal principle of our direction especially in points of Faith It is Holy because it follows and as it follows the Rule and so should we in faith and manners And therefore if it were to be understood of the Visible Church as it is not yet you conclude nothing for your turn upon this consideration To hasten the next Text is formerly urged the Church the Pillar and Ground of Truth Yet squeeze it and presse it and make the best use of it you can it will not afford your inference you would make from it For first some and also very reasonably will refer this Expression not to the Church but to the Mystery of Godlinesse which follows and so they make it as an Hebrew form of setting out some high point and grand Doctrine and then it goes thus A Pillar and Ground of Truth and without Controversie a great Mystery of Godliness is this namely God manifested in the flesh c. If so your interesse in it is sunk and indeed the copulative And and without Controversie doth not seem so well and so close to knit else But it being given not granted that that Criticisme is not sufficient what of all that For Saint Irenaeus as before gives this Eulogy to the Scripture The Scripture gives it to the Church Now to which doth this propertie belong first and absolutely To the Scripture or to the Church Not to the Church for the Church hath it from the Scripture Now that which hath it first hath its absolutely and independently upon that which follows therefore the Scripture is the absolute Pillar and ground of Truth Then there Faith hath sure footing there it sits down there it rests on that Ground upon that Pillar The Church then hath this Title but subordinately and what it saith cannot bind but conditionately to that which is the absolute Ground and Pillar of Truth For the Truth is the Pillar and Ground of the Church as Saint Chysostome saith upon the place Take it then of the Catholick Church not Roman The Text doth more set out the Office of the Church then the authority It doth hold it doth propose it doth uphold the Truth but this doth not convince or evince that whatsoever the Church doth hold we should also hold and upon that account also as if God had appointed the Church infallibly to conveigh to us whatsoever Truth and nothing but Truth And therefore may we and ought we to search the Scriptures as our Savâ—our speaks John 5.39 and by them examine whatsoever the Church saith as those of Beraea did that which was said by Saint Paul and they commended for it And therefore we cannot believe the Definitions of the Church upon its own word Nay can we also say that God doth now give unto the Church such assistance as then which was noted before and therefore we distinguish times not thinking there should be as much said of the Church now as when it included the Apostles and therefore supposing that the Church then did hold all that was true and nothing contrary yet we cannot say it of the Church now and therefore is not the cause of Faith under whose authority it must also passe beside the Divine Revelation to make it Catholique For the Church is conserved by the Truth as Estius also upon the place then thus where the ground of the Catholique Church is there is the ground of Catholique Faith The Scripture is the ground of the Catholique Church unlesse it be conserved by some other principle then by which it is constituted And it is conserved by the Truth saith he and thy word is Truth saith our Saviour John 17.17 And whereas he sayes that the Truth sustaineth the Church and the Church sustaineth the Truth and so one is the cause of the other we answer this is not availeable for you For in the same kinde of cause it cannot be for then we are in a circle but the Truth sustains the Church so as to continue it in its principles the Church sustains the Truth but by way of ministery which doth not make it to be a principle of Faith no not to us Neither do the other Texts speak for you as you would have them If the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church it doth not follow that then Catholique Faith must be built upon the proposalls of the Church Nothing shall prevail to the Condemnation of those who belong to the Church of God as invisible and nothing shall prevail not the Gates of Hell against the Church visible so as somewhere or other there shall not be some who shall professe the Christian Doctrine and Worship sufficiently to salvation The next Text speaks towards Excommunication which comes little into the question for the authority of the Church may proceed to Censure although we be not bound upon peril of want of Faith to submit our understandings to the definitions of the Church As to the authority we may submit so as to endure the censure though we do not submit our judgements as to believe the definitions As to the next place of Scripture
clearer then this if I say such a thing was done by Cicero the Father of his Countrey and Caesar did such another thing What I say more clear then that in this speech I call Cicero The Father of his Country and not Caesar of whom as yet I had not so much as spoken So the Apostle had not so much as spoken of any Mystery when he spoke these words which lie thus in your own Bible That thou maist know how to behave thy self in the House of God which is the Church of the Living God the Pillar and Ground of the Truth and without Controversie great is the Mystery of Godlynesse c. Do you not see that he had not so much as spoken of this Mystery when he said the former words which in all kind of Construction per Appositionem clearly relate to the Church O but my Adversary tells me that this title of being The Pillar and Foundation of Truth agreeth in the first place to the Scripture I answer it agreeth equally to any thing that is the True Word of God and therefore it agreeth to the Scripture because God speaketh by it in it but God also speaketh by his Church and in his Church giving as much infallible assistance to the Church in a Councel as he gave to him who did deliver his Word in Scripture for example as he gave to Solomon who in his own person came to play the Idolater It is objected also that in these words rather the Office of the Church is set forth then her Authority To which my Answer is clear that her Authority cannot possibly in short words be more set out then by saying that she is The Pillar and ground of Truth for what Authority can rely more safely then that which relyeth on the Pillar of Truth What Authority can be better founded and grounded then that which is founded and grounded upon the Ground and Foundation of Truth So that nothing can be more clear against Scripture then to say it doth not set out the Authority of the Church in this place No Text being clearer for any thing Hence when the Church had defined that God the Son was Consubstantial to his Father that is of one and the same substance which is no where clearly said in Scripture St. Athanasius calleth this Definition of the Church the Word of God saying that ever hereafter this Definition of the Nicen Councel That Word of God by the Nicen Councel doth remain for ever and ever Ep. ad African Episc Behold here the Definition of the Councel called The Word of God remaining for ever and ever Is not this to acknowledge the Church Infallible in her Definition That place also out of St. Matthew proveth strongly the Churches infallibility Christ there bids his Apostles to teach and Baptize all Nations adding And behold I am with you all dayes even to the consummation of the world My Adversary saith It is not necessary to extend this Promise to Christ his being with the Church to the end of the world which is all one as to say It is not necessary that Christ his Promise should be true For surely he cannot promise more clearly to be with his Church to the end of the world If he should say I will be with you for a Thousand years he should not perform his promise unlesse he were with it a thousand years wherefore promising to be with it even to the consummation of the world to make his promise true he must be with them so long Now the Apostles were not so long as the end of the world baptizing and preaching but their successors are with them therefore Christ must be to the consummation of the world And though these successors of the Apostles be not so worthy of Infallible Assistance as the Apostles were yet Christ giving the gift of infallible assistance not for the worth of the person to whom it is given but for the secure direction of so many millions as were to be of the Church after Christ his time there is as much yea far more reason why he should leave the like secure direction for them because the further we go from Christs time the more we are subject to uncertainties about his Doctrine See Numb 21. It being then proved that Christ will be with his Church untill the consummation of the world and it being manifest that he is not with those who live in damnable Errors we must of necessity say that Christs Church in all ages lived secured from damnable Errors or else there was some Age in which he was not with it and in which he performed not his promise And the same is to be said of that place of St. John 14. And I will aske the Father and he will give you another Paraclete that may abide with you for ever the Spirit of Truth This abiding of the spirit of Truth for ever secures us for ever from all damnable Errors Admirably St. Austin l de utilit cred c. 6 If the Providence of God doth not preside in humane affairs in vain would sollicitude be about Religion but if God be thus present with us truely we are not to despair that there is some Authority appointed by the same God on which Authority we relying as on an assured step may be lifted up to God So he But if this step be fallible It is no assured step Gods providence therefore hath left an Infallible Authority in his Church such an Authority as the first Church had for 2000. years before any Scripture was written And do not tell me that all this is then only true if the Church judgeth conformably to Scripture for even in that sense the Devil himself the Father of Lyes is Infallible as long as he teacheth conformably to Scriptures and the Gates of Hell cannot by any error prevail against the Devil of Hell yea as long as he teacheth conformably to Scripture he is The Pillar and Ground of Truth Hath God in the Texts alledged given no more to the Church then to the Devils And how is this answer to the purpose seeing that for two Thousand years before Scripture no man could know what was conformable to Scripture yea nothing was then conformable to any Scripture there being no Scripture at all And the Church then had not Gods Promise which in all the Texts Authorities and Reasons above alledged is that the Church shall at no time teach any thing that in any damnable matter shall be against Scripture so that when we know this is her Doctrine we are sure that this is conformable to the Scriptures rightly understood And thus clearly is fulfilled those notable words in the Prophet Daniel cap. 2. v. 44. In the dayes of those Kingdomes the God of Heaven will raise up a Kingdome which shall not be dissipated and his Kingdome shall not be delivered to another people and it shall break in pieces and consume all these Idolatrous Kingdomes and it shall stand for
he seeth this newly vented doctrine fit to be declared Heresie if it be so or to be imbraced if it be fitting and proposed to all Christendome then is the true time of calling a general Council and not to let the people contend by allegations of Scripture So though the Apostles were all infallible in their Doctrine yet they would not determine that grave question Acts 15. without calling a Council To consider of this word in which there was made a great disputation for this is necessarie for the fuller conviction of Hereticks fuller satisfaction of the weaker sort and further comfort of the whole Church to see truth to triumph upheld by the shoulders of all Christendom what proceeding could be more sweet or more orderly what exposition more agreable to this Text Tell the Church which denuntiation is to proceed by degrees from lower to higher Judges as is there expressed And Consequently when the sentence of the Highest tribunal of all is rejected then or never a man is deservedly to be accounted a Publican or a Heathen for not hearing the Church universall She therefore under so great a penalty being alwayes to be heard is secured from all kind of errour what soever in matters of faith belonging to her tribunall and so we must grant her to be infallible I have then already found out such a judge as I sought for a judge in matters of faith a living judge and infallible as you would have him wih an infallibility excluding all errour in what soever he proposeth or decreeth or all possibility of errour For if it were possible for this judge to impose an errour Christ could not possibly have declared it to be so heinous a crime not to hear the Church being that it might have been no crime at all He obliged all to obey and hear her she therefore cannot lead us into an error For as you truly say To be bound to assent to an errour is impossible Our infallibility of knowledge concerning this point is as great as it is of those points which are delivered by Scripture And therefore you may stand up to my Creed and that far more securely then stand out against such a Church the not hearing of which is so great a crime This Church is infallible and by manifest consequence only the Roman Church as I shall demonstrate the next Chapter Number 2. 7. Here by the way you tell me That If I would go the right way in this Dispute I should use another method for whereas I would argue the Church to be this Judge which we cannot safely disobey I should rather shew a priori That the Church is infallible in whatsoever it doth define and therefore ought to be obeyed in all things whatsoever But Sir when I come to use this very method I do foresee that it will so gald you that you will cry out to have this burthensome heavy argument cast upon the other shoulder from which you now would have it shifted to avoid the present trouble it causeth you you shall see if it fall not out as I said And that in this Chapter Numb 52. Of my 18th Number 8. As for St. Austins Authority I must here lay it aside as well as every where else for fear I should lose my labour even after I have proved what I should 9. You fly upon me for flying to that Text of Malachy 2.7 The Priests Lips shall keep Knowledge and they shall require the Law from his Mouth because he is the Angel of the Lord of Hosts Concerning the translation of which Text I truly charge your Bible of corruption for reading thus The Priests Lips should keep the Law and they should seek the Law at his Mouth Whereas all Originals speak clearly in the future tense as the Hebrew doth and also the Greek and Latin which two Languages want not a subjunctive Mood you ask Is this Text meant of the Priests of Rome I told you it was not And I did say expresly that I added this Text to take away from you all wondering at us for allowing that to be practised towards the Priests of the new Law whose authority doubtlesse excells those of the old Law which was practised towards the Priests of the old Law in which those who searched for the true knowledge of the Law were not directed to seek that knowledge by their own reading the Scriptures but they were to search it by having recourse to the Priests who never universally should fail at any time mark that I speak by universal consent to deliver false doctrine As for private Priests they be like Private translations of the word of God If what they deliver agree with the doctrine of the Church their doctrine is infallible not for their private delivery of it but for the authority of their Church as Translators are not to be believed for their authority but for their agreeing with the word of God But there is a vast difference in this that the agreeing of the Translation with the Original is wonderful hard to know especially when the Original it selfe cannot be known by those who admit of an infallible Church by any infallible knowledge The argument of the Priests with the Publick Doctrine of the Church is easily known because her doctrine is so carefully published amongst all understanding men And as it is easy to know that Homo doth truly signifie a man for though one ignorant or malitious Fellow should say it signified a beast yet the consent of all others would manifest that mans perversity If a question were proposed in a matter of doubt in which their opinions varied then men are to proceed as I just now declared Num. 9. And then when the cause should be decided by the High Priests he who would not not hear him was deservedly put to death Deutronomy 17. I know you told me in another place that the Jewish Church erred I did deny it why Did not they erre in condemning our Saviour Yes but then the Jewish Church erred not The true high Priest without whom there is no true Representative Church erred not Caiphas was not the true High Priest for another was lawfully declared to be so This other true High Priest was Christ who before his condemnation had sufficiently for a legall declaration proclaimed himself to be the true Messias the true Anointed of our Lord. This true high Priest erred not The true head of the Church not erring the Church cannot be said to erre The true head of the Church defined not with the Council of Ariminumt Saint Athanasius was bound to follow the Church defining which defined not in that Council for the Head of the Church not defining with the body the whole body or Church defined not Therefore I say again you erre when you say He should have been bound in Conscience by the censure of the Church to have been an Arrian The Church is the High Priest defining with a lawful general Council The High
which collectively taken maketh your other ground of Christian belief to stand upon therefore Saint Pauls words were spoken of the Church as of such a pillar of truth and such a ground of truth as might then be securely relied upon in all matters of faith and confessedly as then the true believers had not the Scriptures sufficiently compleated to be their adaequate Rule of Faith Now after the writings of these Scripture recommending the Church as the pillar and ground of Truth this ground was so far from growing weaker that the confirmation of Scripture added new force to it I have now shewed you the Text in which without any subordination to Scripture as then not written the Church was by Saint Paul called the pillar and ground of Truth Now shew me your Text in which there must be a subordination and such a subordination as may make the Church not to be truly such a pillar and such a ground of Truth as all men may not now rely on it any longer as they did before all Scripture was written I call for your Text not for your reason against which other Reasons will soon be found And as for that saying of Saint Irenaus the Scripture is the pillar and ground of Truth it hath not upon his saying greater authority then the terming of the Church the pillar and ground of truth hath upon the authority of St. Paul My proofe as grounded on S. Paul is stronger then yours as grounded on St. Irenaeus yet I make not St. Irenaeus contrary to St. Paul what he saith of the Scripture I yeild for true yeild me what St. Paul saith that I may ground my faith upon the Church This I cannot do unless God speaketh by his Church If God speaketh by his Church I pray believe what he speaketh He telleth me by his Church that I am to admitt of the Scriptures as his undoubted word upon this his telling me so I ground that faith by which I believe the Scriptures so that I believe the Scriptures for the Church which faith of mine is as surely grounded as was the faith of the true believers who at that very time in which St. Paul did write these words did ground their faith in all points upon the Church as you cannot deny And thus in repect of us the Church is first believed independently of Scripture to which we are most prudently moved by such motives as I have specified and the Scripture in order to us cometh to be acknowledged as Gods word upon the authority of the Church there being no other assured stay speaking of the whole and undoubted Canon to know the true Scripture from false The Scripture is not the first Principle but upon supposition that every one among christians admit of it for Gods Word and so we argue out of it against one another But speaking of him who is to begin to be a christian as where all once began he cannot admit of Scripture as men admit of the first Principles of Sciences which of themselves appear so clearly true that all you can bring to prove their truth will appear lesse true then those Principles appear by themselves The Scripture is not the first Principle in this sense appearing evidently by its own light to be Gods Word as I have shewed at large And this answereth all you say until you come to make good your new interpretation of St. Pauls words an interpretation unheard of to all antiquity and to all men until this age Necessity now forced men to their shifts to put off Scripture when it made against them These words must now be necessarily referred to that which is said in the verse following concerning the mystery of the Incarnation and so though St. Paul did write this Epistle in Greek he must needs be said to have used here an Ebraisme And why must he needs be said to have done so here in this particular place because somtimes such Ebraisms be used in the new Testament Whether this reason wil justifie so new an interpretation of words even for a thousand and five hundered yeares applied to the Church never applied to the Mistery of the Incarnation shall be determined even by the Principles of one of your greatest Divines now living I mean Dr. Jeremy Taylor in his Discourse of the Liberty of prophecying Sect. 4. An other great pretence for justifying new interpretations is the conference of places which you would use here by conferring this place to some few places in which such Ebraismes be used in Greek A thing of such indefinite capacity that if there be ambiguity of words variety of sence alteration of circumstances or difference of stile amongst Divine writers there is nothing which may be more abused by wilful people or may more easily deceive the unwary or that may amuse the most intelligent observours This he proveth by several examples and then he truly saith This is a fallacy a Posse ad esse It is possible a thing sometimes may be so therefore undoubtedly here it is so There be such Ebraismes some where therefore they must needs be here where for a thousand and five hundred yeares no man observed any such thing Most truly saith the same Doctor This is the great way of answering all the Arguments which can be brought against any thing that any man hath a mind to defend Sir you who make the Scripture judge of all Controversies should not of all men justifie such liberty of new interpretation as this your proceeding would bring in Or if you doe you will soon see and may already see it that your judge will be made to speak what each party pleaseth And thus will be unable to decide any thing But to proceed The Church truly being before the Canon was written the pillar and ground of truth in it self without any subordinatiō so that the believers looked no further then that God taught them such and such things by the Church I have from the text all I desire to prove that Gods assistance promised to the Church should reach as farre as infallibility Whether this infallibility be equal to that of the Apostles or no maketh not to the purpose so long as it is granted that our faith relying upon her authority doth rely as securely as that which relies upon the Pillar and ground of truth Here you come in with a parenthesis noting me for a French Catholique for allowing infallibility to the Pope defining with a council Sir you are no Schollar if you know not that all Roman Catholiques allow infallibility to the Pope defining with a council 24 But because I say also that God speaketh by his Church proposing infallibly his truth by her mouth you tell me that I hence may plainly see how the Roman tyranny drawes me necessarily into peril of blasphemy A deepe charge needing a strong proof And yet all your proof is because now there is no need of Scripture since God speakes as infallibly by his Church as
your self See how you now differ from your selfe Before the ground of Believing was the authority of the Church now the authority of God revealing the cause of their belief Before you concluded Faith consisted in submitting the understanding and adhering to the Church and in believing every thing because she proposeth it now it is the authority of God revealing which causes their faith to be Divine As for the term thus the formal object is such under which and in respect whereunto any thing proceedeth if then Gods Revelation cometh not to us under the Proposal of the Church or as proposed by the Church then the cause is lost if it doth then grant me my term and affirm with me that the Pontificians hold so If not they are better then you And what means else their implicite faith unlesse we are to believe every thing as the Church believeth it and because the Church proposeth it as you said and if we be to beleive every thing as the Church believe it then is the Church the formal object of their faith since they are also bound not to doubt but simply to obey as Bellarmine tells us in his fourth Book of the Roman Bishop 5. chap. The other term you find fault with is excesse of faith You taxe it as improperly spoken But surely it will passe without any Grain of Salt or of allowance if we consider that Faith may be compared as to a particular object and so there is not an Excesse of Faith as to that but then it may be compared as to many objects and so though we do not more believe one thing then we should if we should indeed believe it yet may we believe more then we should If we believe those things which are not at all to be believed And thus if we should believe whatsoever the Church of Rome proposeth we might be destroyed for excesse of Faith The Church of Rome is peccant in excesse of Faith by believing more points then it should believe and this is the reason why our Divinity is in negatives as to differences with them because their Divinity in differences to us is in additions SIR If you will excuse me for being so long I shall now conclude with the whole conclusion of Saint Austin whereof you gave me but part Against Reason no Sober Man will go against Scriptures no Christian then Christians should go by Scriptures against the Church no Peace-maker The Roman Catholick's first Treatise How in these times in which there be so many Religious the true Religion may certainly be found out The Preface THE Romane Catholicks have often foretold that by permitting freely to all sorts of people whatsoever the reading of the Scriptures in their Mother Tongue multitudes of New Sects and Heresies would not fail to grow up in numberless Number and as for the Peoples Manners they would daily grow worse and worse How true this is let the world judge That then which now mainly imports is to distinguish the true Religion from so many false ones This is my Aim To effect this I did write a short Paper shewing the Catholick Church so to teach the infallible way to Salvation which is to be obtained onely in the true faith that we cannot have as things stand any other Assurance to ground our faith upon securely I did never deny that when by the Infallible Authority of the Church we are secured that the Scriptures be the word of God we cannot believe such things as are clearly contained in the Scripture for so I should deny that I could not believe that to be infallibly true which upon an Infallible ground I believed to be Gods own word But I did and still do maintain that no man can have Infallible ground to believe the Scriptures now but he who first believeth that which the Church teacheth to be infallibly true Whence it will follow that his faith must needs now at the first be grounded upon the Revelation of Gods truth made by God to us by his Church and not by his written word The Papers I did write to this Effect have been answered by some truly Learned Scholar so that I hope so worthy a Man will not reject such a Reply as may seem to be as clear a Demonstration as any wise Man can hope for in this Matter And such a Demonstration I hope by Gods grace to make whilst I endevour to make good the Title prefixed to this Paper which Title I now add to shew that my chief drift is to guide a Soul redeemed by Christs blood to that happy eternity to which we cannot attain unless in all doubtful Controversies of faith we follow the Catholick Church as an Infallible Judge in all those Controversies we being obliged under pain of damnation not to dis-believe this Judge And whilst I demonstrate this I do demonstrate my former Position That the Infallible Authority of the Catholick Church is the Ground of our faith And also going on with this Demonstration I will leave nothing of Concernment unanswered in the Reply made and thus I will conclude contradictorily to the said Reply which a little after the beginning denyeth The Authority of the Catholick Church to be the Ground of faith and that whereby we are infallibly ascertained of the minde of God I answer not the Reply just in the Order that my Answer was returned for so I should be over-long I use this way of a little Treatise to prove my Title for thus all will be more clear and less tedious In the Conclusion I shew all the parts of the Reply to have been fully answered in this Discourse The Proof of the Title St. Anselme hath a very fit Similitude to express how much a Contentious Spirit in disputing doth blind the understanding from seeing the Manifest Truth He sayeth that a little before Sun-rising two men in the fields did fall into a hot debate concerning that place of the Heavens in which the Sun was that day to rise the one pointing out one part of the Heavens the other another They passed so far in their Contention that falling together by the Ears they both pulled out one anothers Eyes and so when the Sun by and by after did rise neither of them both could see a thing so clear as was the place of the Sun rising To our purpose Because Zeal in Religion is accounted laudable and also because prejudice caused by Education in such or such a Religion is a thing exceedingly swaying us to our own side we are commonly apt to grow into so hot a debate in disputations about Religion that I may freely say This Passion hindreth many thousands from seeing that clear Sun-shine of Truth which men of mean Capacity would clearly behold if setting all passion and prejudice aside they did with a Calm and humble Mind beg of God to give them this grace of seeking Truth with all sincerity for then he who should seek should find This is proved manifestly
it self alone it never being intended for that end It is sufficient that this Book provides an infallible means to judge them by sending us to the Church for our Judge They truly disgrace the Scripture who will first make men believe that all necessary Controversies are plainly decided by Scripture alone and that God intended the Scripture for the plain decision of them and then when it comes to the trial are not able to shew any Text of Scripture deciding many and most important Controversies for this is in effect to say God performed very unsufficiently what he intended to do by Scripture If what I said gave you any advantage shew it by disproving what I said 53. First you ask how these words are put together so Prophetically that most would think that the Scripture speaketh of the time present when it speaketh of the time to come I answer that it was fit the old Testament should be Prophetical and I intended nothing lesse then to blame Scripture And yet I say that when the Scripture useth such words as signifie to us a veritie present as well as a veritie future we who have nothing but these words to direct us cannot tell infallibly whether God intended by them to speak onely of what was present or of what was to come And so Gods meaning in all these places is obscure unto us And if you can help us to any assured means of knowing infallibly the hidden sense of God utter'd in this māner you shall do more then any of your Doctors ever did Secondly whereas you think it little to the purpose of him who is to shew in how doubtful terms the Scriptures sometimes expresse themselves when they spoke so that you cannot tell whether David speaketh of himself or of Christ your judgement is very different from Candaris that wise judicious man who had charge of all the Treasure of the Queen of Aethiopia Acts 8.27 He read Isaias the clearest of all the Prophets concerning Christ and he read a place as clearly speaking of Christ as most places you can turn unto with all your skill and yet when Philip said to him Understandest thou what thou readest He who was so prudent and so sincere a searcher of the Truth answered How can I except some man should guide me And then he asked of his guide that of which he most doubted I pray thee of whom speaketh the Prophet this of himself or of some other man Had you been there you would have told him he had blamed Scripture as you tell me for the like cause Who doubteth but Prophets should speak prophetically And yet again who doubteth but that this their speaking so makes them to need a Guide an Interpreter 54. I do not think that among your own Clergie or Laitie you are as much esteemed as he who spoke as fully of this point as I did I mean Doctor Ieremy Taylor in his Discourse of the Liberty of Prophecying Sect. 3. where he proveth the uncertaintie of Arguments from Scripture By the many senses of Scripture when the Grammatical sense is found out for there is in very many Scriptures a double sense a Literal and a Spiritual and both these Senses are subdivided For the Literal sense is either Natural or Figurative and the Spiritual sometimes Allegorical sometimes Anagogical sometimes there are divers literal Senses in the same place so he Now it depends upon the secret intention of the Holy Ghost to have used these words in some one onely or two or more of these senses Is there no difficultie think you in finding out so great a secret and that infalliblie as we must do in points necessary to salvation And if you say the sense is alwaies cleared out of some Text or other in such points you say more then you can prove Take for an example these four words This is my Body you must say they are spoken in a Figurative sense and not in their Natural sense shew this in a Figurative sense to be infallibly the true sense by any other clear Text or else you shew not what you say Two hundred several Interpretations have been given of these four words Is this a sign that true sense is easily known and known infallibly Is not this about a point necessarie to salvation 55. To shew further the difficulty there was to know the undoubted meaning of Scripture even in precepts which being precepts are damnably broken I used this argument the Scripture useth the Imperative Mood as well when it counsels as when it commands What infallible means then have we to know what is recommended onely to us as a Counsel or Command as a precept to be kept under pain of damnation Instead of teaching me this means you say you cannot swallow this without chewing because I suppose that there are Counsels of perfection above things of Command whilest you chew this do not you see that your teeth bite Saint Paul who expresly supposeth with me that there be counsels of perfections above things of Command For 1 Cor. 7.25 he saith Concerning Virgins I have no Commandement of our Lord yet I give Counsel And Verse 38. He that giveth his daughter in marriage doth well but he that giveth her not in marriage doth better How doth this agree with your strange Divinity according to which we have done but our duty and what we are obliged to do under a damnable sin when we have done as much as we could Is this true Might not this man have given his daughter in marriage who doth not give her He might have done so and done well according to Saint Paul According to you he is bound to do all that he could do But he could have done better in not giving her to marriage therefore according to you he was bound not to give her under pain of damnation Here I must intreat you to mark the words of the Text you alledge against me Luke 17. So likewise when you have done all those things which are commanded you he saith not which are onely commended by way of Council say we are unprofitable servants we have done what we ought to do to wit by an expresse Precept obliging under damnation In one sense this man who hath not married his daughter may truly say I have done what I ought to do not out of strict Obligation binding under pain of Hell-fire for I might have done well in doing the contrarie but what I ought to do out of more perfect charitie To swallow this Apostolical Doctrine is far easier then to admit into ones mouth those words of yours The Commandements of God are given to us according to the tenour of our abilitie in Adam What evident Text teacheth this I am sure Saint Iohn saith Hereby we do know that we know him if we keep his Commandements He that saith I know him and keepeth not his Commandments is a lyar and the truth is not in him John 2. Therefore since Adams dayes God enabled
for the dead all inscriptions of graves all wills and testaments all foundations of pious places will testifie this custome farre more strongly then that of Baptisme yea in no one countrey nor in any one age since Christ untill this last following age did ever any one man deny praying for the dead except Aerius counted for this his opinion an Heretick by St. Austin and by St. Epiphanius as you know very well Hence it is made evidently credible to any learned man that this Tradition of baptizing Infants and much more the Tradition of praying for the dead came to us from the Apostles it not being possible for all true believers in so many severall countries and so many severall ages to agree in the profession and daily practice of this truth without they had received these two things joyntly with their first faith else the novelty and the authors of such a novelty would in some time or some place have been made known to posterity for no one mans worke was it no nor no one hundred mens worke to bring all men every where to any such novelty with so unanimous and no where contradicted consent The Ignorant people will have the truth of these Traditions also made evidently credible unto them by the publick unanimous and universal consent of all antient men and all Ancient Monuments and also the like unanimous affirmation of all learned men of any standing who will all and every where profess themselves assured of it by their Learning and certain knowledge of those Traditions proved in the manner I now said This maketh the matter evidently credible to the ignorant Wherefore they should do most imprudently not to believe that these points came from the Apostles and then supposing that they came from them they should do a damnable sin not to believe them Can any rationall man desire a more rational proceeding How many true believers commended in Scripture cannot give so prudent a reason for what they believed How we proceeding thus escape clearly all Circle I told you the last Chapter Numb 31.32 Now as you must grant that our Church submitted unto as infallible presently by her authority decides all controversies so her Traditions once acknowledged as infallible will decide the points questioned The Scripture never so clear can never decide any one controversie untill it be first acknowledged Thus you see the two things which you here desired to see 17. After this I passed to another quality which the Church hath and the Bible hath not though it be a quality primely necessary to decide all controversies whence it appeareth that God intended not the Bible but the Church to be our judge This quality is that the Church is a living judge who can be informed of all Controversies arising from time to time and who can heare me and you and be heard by me you so manifestly that neither I nor you can doubt of the true meaning of this Church or if we do doubt we can propose our doubts and she will explicate her meaning Such a living judge as this we must have to put effectually an End to all Controversies that can arise And as for the Bible I have shewed that it doth not decide all points necessary to Salvation the Bible heareth not new Controversies arising as I prove by this clear example An Arrian staâ—â—eth up as really he did and saith that these words of the Scripture These three are one are words added by us to the true Scripture This Controversie and a thousand such like the Bible heareth not the Bible judgeth not for there is not a word of it in all the Bible And though you say you can see true Scripture by its light you shall never get any man to believe that you your selfe do really believe that you see every verse in Scripture by its light No light appeareth so dimm as these words appear to man Three are one Yet besides this light you who reject Church Tradition as fallible you I say have left you no other infallible ground nor any infallible meanes to convince the Arrian untill you hold the Church infallible All other use which you say you make of the Church sufficeth not to ground an infallible assent for when all comes to all you make any private man and consequently every Arrian Cobler as I shewed the last Court of Judicature in giving the finall sentence on which all depends For he must be the last judge who after the Churches judgement must give sentence that she hath or hath not judged against Scripture That you may see my argument is not peccant I will frame both the Premisses and the Conclusion thus Faith being an infallible assent Controversies concerning faith cannot be determined so as to end then effectually but by an infallible living judge who can heare you and me and be heard by you and me But no other then the Church can with any ground be held to be this living judge Therefore She must be held to be this judge I doe not without Reason put in my Premisses the terme of infallible for faith being an infallible assent must needs require an infallible authority to rest upon This Authority she must find in all points to which she is bound to give this assent But she is bound to give this assent to diverse points not proposed clearly in Scripture as I shewed the last Chapter Therefore she is bound to give this assent to diverse of those points onely because they are proposed by the Church to which she could not possibly be bound to give an infallible assent without due assurance of her infallibility 48 You object that the Church Traditions cannot hear you and me I answer that it is the Church who proposeth these Traditions and not the Traditions which are our judge you ask me whither an Heretike be not condemned by himselfe as Saint Paul saith and you interpret his saying so that he must needs be condemned by himselfe for no other reason but because he had in him the principles of the word of God which he gain-said by his contrary error and so he was condemned thereby and therefore that can Judge Sir he is not an Heretike but an infidel who is told by his own Conscience that he gain-saith the Scripture All christians are readier to die then to disbelieve any one saying of the Scripture When St. Paul writ those words the whole Canon of the Scripture was not written and until the whole Canon was written your own Doctors grant the Church to have ben the infallible judge of Controversies And I wonder you should say the Church at the writing of this by St. Paul was not sufficiently formed which the same St. Paul testifieth to have been formed before his conversion accusing himselfe for having above measure persecuted the Church of God And before his conversion the Number of the disciples was multiplied Act. 6. yea Act. 8. Simon Magus was turned Heretick before St. Paul was turned
to their successours the visible Teachers and Guides of the Church which were to guide people into all Truth for ever must needs have been verified all this last thousand years before your Reformation All this time all the visible Guides or Prelates of the Church were led and did lead into opinions contrary to the Tenets of your Church But all this time the spirit of Truth did abide with them guiding them into all Truth Therefore the opinions contrary to your Tenets were true and not errors If he should be with your Prelats beginning this last age to hold contrary to the Prelats of the last thousand years he should be with those who teach contradictions in points of belief opposite to the former belief Behold a clear reason why I appropriate this promise to our Bishops and Church and not to yours the Holy Ghost could not teach those guides of the Church forever who for a vast long time of many ages were not in the World Shew me a succession in all Ages of the guides or lawful Pastors of any Church houlding your Texts in points differing from ours and then I must labour to find a reason why I say the Holy Ghost ever since Christs time guided the lawful Pastors of our Church into all truth rather then the lawful Pastors of your Church which Pastors had no being in the Church or world and consequently no capacity to be guided into all truth 31 A Sixth Text to prove this assistance to be extended to infallibility is 4 Ephes whence appeareth that the end and intention of Christ in giving us who were visible in all ages Doctors and Pastors for all ages was such an end and such an intention as could not be compassed by such Doctors and Pastors as might lead us into circumvention of errour even then when they where assembled together to deliver the truth from their highest tribunal in a General Council How pittifully would the Saints be consummated by such Doctors How pittifully would the work of the Ministry be performed how pittifully would the Body of Christ be edified by such Doctors and Pastors Lastly how impossible would it be for us by the having of such doctors and Pastors that wee now provided of such guides be not children wavering and carried about with the wind of doctrine in the wickedness of men in craftiness in circumvention of error You see St. Paul affirms the Doctors and Pastors which are given unto us to be given for this end and consequently sufficiently assisted to the same that we may securely rest in their doctrine which we may not do in any erroneous doctrine be the errour little or great For it were a ridiculous thing to say we were to rest circumvented in error least we should fall into circumvention of error The assistance therefore is such as preserves from all error and such an assistance was proportionable to Gods intention of Securing us from having reason to waver or to be changing and changing so to cure some curable errors with which we feared to be circumvented whereas by the unanimous doctrine of these Doctors and Pastors God intended to preserve us sufficiently from ever falling into circumvention of errour 32. A seventh Text to prove the assistance of the Holy Ghost given to the Church to be extended to infallibility is taken from Esay chap. 56. verse 20. and 21. where God speaketh of the Church of Christ to which after his coming many of the Jewes were to unite themselves according to the interpretation of Saint Paul 18. Romans verse 26. Thus God by Esay The redeemer shall come to Sion and unto them who by uniting themselves to Christs Church shall turne from transgression in Jacob saith the Lord. Note here that the words which our Lord is going to say are spoken to the visible Church to wit that Church to which rhe Jewes did unite themselves being baptized in it instructed in it governed by it c. Now our Lord to this Church visibly Baptizing instructing governing c. saith As for me this is my Covenant with them saith the Lord My spirit that is upon thee and my words free from errour in all points great and little which I have put in thy mouth that mouth by which thou visibly dost teach all Nations shall not depart out of this thy mouth Nor out of the mouth of thy seed Nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed saith the Lord from henceforth and for ever Behold here the Spirit of Truth entailed upon the Church for all Ages never departing from her mouth Nor the mouth of her seeds seed which not departing from the mouth by which visibly she teacheth instructeth and governeth sheweth this Spirit entayled upon the Church as Visible and not as Invisible as you would have it And this not departing of his Spirit from her Mouth is a no lesse cleare then eloquent expression of her infallibility in her doctrine for Gods Spirit or Word is not in a Mouth teaching error Agaâ—n a promise of not departing from her mouth from thenceforth and for ever maketh it evident that this last thousand yeares there was some visible Church whose Prelates and Pastors did shew their Heads and open their Mouthes in teaching truth And yet what was visibly taught all this while was in all points debated between you and us opposit to you By the way note how unjustly you not long since taxed those of coming neer blasphemy who said that God did speak to us and teach us by his Church What mean these words My Words shall not depart out of thy Mouth Nor out of the Mouth of thy seed nor of thy seeds seed 33 Hence for an Eight Text I may well alledge what this Prophet infers from hence in the Next Chapter where he triumpheth in the Church thus teaching all Nations and there he addeth For the nation and Kingdom that shall not serve thee shall perish verse 12. Because if this Church should ever at any time fall to teach error Nations should do well and should further their salvation by forsaking her erring as the Protestants say they did And note how these words clearly shew that the Scripture speaketh of the Church visible which Nations and Kingdomes may find out and serve and must perish like publicans and Heathens if they doe not serve and obey she is therefore secured from error Hence verse 20. Thy sun shall no more goe down Neither shall the Moon withdraw it selfe For the Lord shall be thine everlasting light and the daies of thy Mourning shall be ended And in the next chapter to the Sons of this Church he promiseth That everlasting Joy shall be unto them verse 7. And in the next chapter last verse Thou shalt be called sought out a City not forsaken Had this Church been forsaken and left in such errors as are imputed to the Roman Church Christ had not been an Everlasting light to here whom he had left in such darknes for a thousand yeares
him the authority of the Church is onely binding in a Council with the Popes consent and no Generall Council can be found which did establish the points of Doctrine and Discipline wherein we differ before those Reformers did shew themselves for the Trent Councill which also is not a generall Council was after their beginning as is known and it was called upon their occasion Fifthly as for our Reformation in England from the incroachments of the Court of Rome it was first made by men of the Roman faith So then my Adversary gets nought by this exception And if the Romanists object to us reformation in Doctrine against the Church as in the time of King Edward the sixth we reply as before that we did not oppose the Church Catholick we left the Roman as they left the Catholick Church The whole is greater than the part and therefore had we reason to leave them Omne reducitur ad principium which is a rule of Aquinas We are in Doctrine as the Church was in the times of the Apostles Our defence is in Tertullian in his book of Praesor 35. ch Posterior nostra res non est imo omnibus prior est c. Our cause is not more moderne but more antient than all This shall be the Testimony of truth every where obtaining the superiority Ab Apostolis utique non damnatur imo defenditur it is not condemned by the Apostles nay it is defended This shall be the indication of propriety for those who do not condemne it who have condemned whatsoever is extraneous do shew it to be theirs and therefore do defend it The second inconvenience which he urgeth of my Principles to draw me to his is none Secondly seeing that a Generall Council as you in your first paper confesse is the highest Court on earth to hear and determine controversies c. What then unlesse all were bound to confirme and subscribe to erroneous definitions and all Preachers were silenced and obliged not to open their mouths against their errors This he attributes to me as if I said it or my opinion did inferre it whereas neither is true Nay nor did he find in my papers that erroneous definitions of a Generall Council though the highest Court are to be accepted peaceably reverently and without disturbance namely so as to accept them in assent as true for that would be impossible they may be accepted and reverently and without disturbance as to peace in not opposing though not as to faith in submission of Judgement and because they may thus be accepted will it therefore follow that we are therefore bound to confirme and subscribe to erroneous definitions By no meanes I do not remember that I used the terme of accepting and yet if I did it might be construed in sensu commodo so as not to disturb the peace of the Church and quietly to endure the censure But there is a vast difference betwixt not opposing and conforming or subscribing For not to oppose is negative to conforme or subscribe is a positive act Not to oppose respects the definition as a publick act to conforme or subscribe respects it as true which I cannot do supposing it erroneous Not to oppose regards the Judgement of the Church as authoritative to conforme or subscribe regards the judgement of the Church as at least not erring in the definition And as for that he saies that by my confession all Preachers are silenced and obliged not to open their mouths against these errors I answer first by distinguishing of the matter of the error If the matter of the error be not great as not destroying an article of faith it might be better quietly to tollerate it than publickly to speak against it if the matter of the error be repugnant to an article of faith then we distinguish of the manner of speaking against it and we say we may soberly refer it to another general Council if any be in view If not we may speak the truth positively without opposition to the authoritie of the Church so as to vilify or contemn it Yea further if the Council be free and general it being so qualified it is not like to erre in any decree repugnant to a main article of faith and therefore the question about speaking against it is in this case well taken away And yet further admitting and not granting that such a Council should erre in defining that which is contrary to an article of faith yet must my Adversary have supposed by his principles that the truth contrary to this error hath been established by some other general Council or else according to him the Church hath not sufficiently provided how to settle us infallibly in matters of faith since according to him we must resolve our faith ultimately in the Decrees of Generall Councils and then Council will contradict Council and therefore will not a Council be a ground of faith because one may contradict another and also we may speak by vertue of the former Council against the error of the latter And therefore the whole Church of God is not in a pitifull case by any thing of what I said in reverence to Councils without absolute obedience But to be sure the Church would be in a pitifull case if indeed we were bound to receive intuitively all definitions of Councils in whatsoever matters for then should we be bound to submit our conscience to a Council against our conscience since it is not yet proved infallible and this makes for the inward act a contradiction for the outward hypocrisie And surely if that which is most hard is most easily broken as was said by one in the Trent Council then that he urgeth is easily answered for there is to be sure lesse danger in not speaking against that which is false as he would have me say than in yielding to all as infallibly true as he would have me believe And therefore that which follows returnes with more force upon my Adversary mutatis mutandis A pitifull thing it would be if the Church were bound to believe all definitions of a Council which are not yet proved nor ever will be not to be fallible and consequently some that may be false which being by command from the highest authoritie upon earth preached by so many and not so much as to be consiwered by one would needs increase to a wonderfull height Would any wise Law-maker proceed thus if they could helpe it as well as Christ could by continuing in his word written that infallibilitie which my Adversary hath confessed or must that it always had and shall have As for the infallibility of the Church for two thousand yeares before Scripture was written and that which this Church of Christ had before all the whole canon of the new Testament was finished which was for the first forty yeares of the Church This we have spoken to sufficiently before And this doth at most inferre upon a supposition that the Church was for
if we should say that all those who have differed from us are Hereticks 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but we know on which part the Fathers of the Church stood We can carry our Fathers through the flames of divisions safe I mean the antient Fathers of the Church But 3. If they will do us right upon occasion for it we will distinguish and so do them a favour but only then they must be guilty here of a fallacy of consequent for although Heresie be opposite to clear Scripture yet all which is opposite to clear Scripture by their leave is not Heresie This is a condition of Heresie but this is not the essentiative of it There may be and are plain points of Scripture which respect circumstances and yet these are not matters sufficient to make difference in them to be Heresie They account indeed all difference to be Heresie because they respect not points in order to the matter but to the proposal of the Church which hath it self equall to all but the tenure of our principles is yet good And yet this we will grant them that he who denies any thing which he confesseth to be plain he is an Arch-Heretick but not in respect to it presently in the matter which may be a circumstance but in respect to it as confessed plain because thus he should deny Gods veracity And yet 4. the difference is not so much in opposition to clear Texts as in their obtruding matters of faith for which they have no Text. He proceeds But by your own confession Christ had no visible Church c. Ans Will he again snarl himself First it lyes on the challengers part to make good two points one that these points of difference were held in the Primitive times and the second that they were held on their side They say we have runne away from the antient Catholick Apostolick Roman faith this is work for them to prove And until this be settled we have nothing to say to that conclusion that Christ was with the opposers of evident Scripture And yet we can say also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that it is false in the proposition and false in the conclusion as applied to us And yet somewhat else may be said of it by and by Thus we answer them if they intend the words of the primitive times if they intend them only of the last ages preceding the reformation we say first that we may be somewhat more bold because their Church in those times was more degenerated But 2. We need not deny that Christ was with his ordinances even in those times as to lawfulness of baptism and to the possibility of some's being converted who might privately abhorr the grosser errours or simply might swallow them as the Whale did Ionah undigested Delictum ambulat cum Capite they followed Absalom in the simplicity of their heart Therefore 3. as to the opposers of evident Scripture that either Christ must be with such according to our suppositions or else with none for these last ages we can easily distinguish To be with them so as to give them infallible assistance or to be with them so as not to withdraw all administrations of his ordinances the former sense we can presently deny Christs being with them in for we deny it to all times after the Apostles in the latter sense we can grant it and yet they can get nothing by it Yea we can also deny them this and can answer to the other part of the disjunction that if not with them then with none for those times this we can answer to and say that his disjunctive is not yet immediate because many or at least some might be led to heaven by the Cloud as well as in the time of Elijah and as they will say in the time of Anti-Christ N. 30. This makes number being little else then a syllabus of former Texts He thinks in them to prove two things first that the spirit will be with the sucessours of the Apostles for ever And 2. Secure them from errour because it is said he will guide you into all truth Ans As for the first we need not stand upon that for the question is not simply upon Christs continuance with the successours because we deny it not in termes But the question is upon the universality of the object all truth namely whether it be to be taken reduplicatively to truth or specificatively to necessary truth The latter we can grant to the Church as invisible and to the universal visible The former we still deny For first it respects the Apostles principally as appeares by the twelth ver I have many things to say unto you but you cannot bear them now This must be spoken unto the Apostles personally and not as they were personae supponentes But this he takes no notice of And then again the opposing of for ever by the spirit to a little while of being with them in body must referr as it is noted to the Apostles because he was not any time with the successours in body Yea also this will be true in the time of Anti-Christ will it not if not then the promise is not made good and so Christ should not be as good as his word If so then it is extendible in the promise to the Church invisible when the profession is not so visible Then why do they arogate it to the Church visible Again this equally respects all the successours of the Apostles doth it not If it does not then they should satisfie themselves with a limitation where none is expressed which lately they would not doe If it does then all Bishops are equall because they all succeeded the Apostles as St. Ierom affirmes in his epistle to Evagrius 4. All truth must be restrained in regard of the kind for it must be Theological Yea also in regard of the specialty it must be necessary truth for otherwise how was this promise made good for the first three hundred yeares wherein there was no Generall Council by their own confession Put it then into forme all infallibillity is in a Council In that space there was no Council then in that space there was not all infallibility therefore at most only in points necessary They cannot deny the major because they annex infallibility since the Apostles to a Council The minor they confess So then the promise of Christ which was made equally to the Apostles and successours yes taking it rightly equally to all the Apostles amongst themselves and to all the successours amongst themselves not equally to the Apostles and to their successours comparatively to both is yet made good according to its own tenour in its own sense with their consequences Therefore their Romish Divines do carry it more soberly for so they say upon the place and therefore the Church cannot fall into Apostasie or Heresie or to nothing as the adversaries say they do not say it cannot fall into any errour Into
which is hard to affirme since we cannot see that there is any such necessity for such assistance And by those words such assistance Your last reply sheweth that you meane assistance extended to Infallibility Sir stand to Scripture and shew out of the Text that he promiseth to be with them securing them from all error in the first age and he promiseth not so much for the second or third age Against your reasons we have our reasons bring against my illimited text another text teaching clearly that my Text ought to be limited to a smaller assistance in other ages then was here promised for the first As for the necessity of the people which was the prime reason why Christ gave this infallibility it was greater in ages remoter from Christ you ask why then be our traditions now equally infallible to those of these times I answer that as it is harder to prove now that Christ did such miracles was crucified did rise again then it was presently after these things happened yet all these things be as infallibily true now as they were then and as infallilible so I say of Traditions which for all this doe not lose a sufficient measure of infallible certainty But to go on What if there be no such necessity of such assistance for other ages what Text have you to prove that God must needs give no more then is necessary and cannot promise more and give what he promiseth I know you will say this infallibility in ages after the Scripture was not necessary because the Scriptures alone would serve to decide all controversies Sir did not the Church alone serve to decide all Controversies before the Scripture was written Yes Why then was Scripture thought necessary by you even for this end for which the Church was well provided before Again the old Scripture did it not testifie as much as was necessary that Jesus Christ was the true Messias Yes To what end then was Saint John Baptist sent to testifie this To what end a voyce sent from Heaven to testifie this To what end so many Miracles wrought to testifie this To what end did Christ and his Apostles still further testifie this Mark here how false your judgement is in thinking God will promise just what is necessary and no more Sir in Ages after the first when the Church should grow from a Grain of Mustard-seed to be a Tree of vast extent in such a vast compasse and in progresse of many Ages a world of doubts would rise which Bookes were Scripture which not Which corrupted Scripture which not Which was the undoubted sense of the uncorrupted Scripture which not Why might not Christ for any thing you know by Scripture think this a sufficient Reason to promise an assistance extended to infallibility for other Ages of the Church as well as for the first age Will an authority so assisted to testifie all this infallibly be lesse necessary then so many Authorities to Testifie that Jesus Christ was the true Messias after it was infallibly Testified by true Scripture And all these Testimonies were given to the Jewes as ill as they were disposed How then can you say of the Church of Christ that she for want of this Disposition was deprived of this Assistance in all Ages but the first VVhat you adde of Traditions hath been already Answered See also Number Twelve But what you adde of Scripture having still the same certaintie is apparently false speaking as you speake in Order to assure us For you your selfe confesse that divers Bookes of Scripture as the Apocalyps c. are now held certain which were not held so before Again many and a good many bookes of Scripture are quite lost How know you by Scripture only that no necessary point for practice or beliefe contained in those bookes only did not perish with the bookes themselves And as for the bookes we have you see how uncertain we remain about the true sense of them in highest points Then they had the Apostles themselves or the known Disciples of the Apostles to tell them the meaning of these words This is my Body is this so really or figuratively only These words Baptize all Nations do or do not include Infants To be a Priest or a Bishop was to have power to sacrifice to absolve or was it not Now times make these held for uncertainties whereas by and by you admit that by this promise of Christ the Church is secure from damnable error though not from all simple errors for then no body should be left for God to be withal you admit that which will destroy quite what you said before For before you said Heresie consisted in opposition to clear Scripture whence all those must needs be Hereticks who opposed clear Scripture Therefore all those who held these prime points in which you and we differ with us against you were Hereticks for they held these points which as you say are against clear Scripture But by your own confession Christ had no visible Church baptizing teaching all Nations c. but those who held these prime points in which we and you differ wherefore we must confesse that Christ was with these Opposers of evident Scripture or else you cannot shew with what Members of the Church he was for all these last ages preceding the Reformation Let us go on 30. What kind of assistance Christ promised may be gathered behold a fifth Text out of several words in the 14. chapter of Saint John there verse 15. he saith I will pray the Father and he shall give another Comforter that he may abide with you for ever even the Spirit of Truth whom the world cannot receive And verse 27. The Comforter which is the Holy Ghost whom the Father will send in my Name he shall teach you all things and suggest unto you all things whatsoever I shall say unto you And chap. 16. ver 12. I have yet many things to say unto you How be it when the spirit of Truth is come he will guide you into all Truth I aske now according to these Texts How long is this spirit of Truth to abide with them in their successours For ever saith the Text. Shall he also secure those with whom he for ever abideth from all errour He will guide you into all Truth saith the Text. Give me then leave lesse to regard what you say to the contrary Where there is all Truth there is no errour If you answer there is no Fundamental errour I Reply that all Truth excludes all errour either in points Fundamental or not Fundamental And being you cannot assuredly tell me which points be Fundamental which not which destructive of salvation which not which be curable which are not you must grant me that she is to be believed in all points And fear not to believe her She will guide you into all Truth Therfore you may securely follow her in all herwaies This promise of Christ made equally to the Apostles and