Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	apostle_n	christian_a	church_n	1,703	5	4.0931	3	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A33224	The summ of a conference on Feb. 21, 1686, between Dr. Clagett, and Father Gooden, about the point of transubstantiation	Clagett, William, 1646-1688.; Gooden, Peter, d. 1695.	1689 (1689)	Wing C4401; ESTC R7092	13,374	33

are accounted Fallible Nor Councels because they also are accounted Fallible Nor Scriptures sensed by a Fallible Authority because all such Interpretations may be False And therefore Faith cannot be Obtained by any such means For that which is Doubtfull can only Create Opinion which is also Doubtful And He that doubts in Faith the Apostle says is Infidelis And a Company of Doubters are not a Church of Faithful but a Society of such as the Apostle calls Infidels Signed Peter Gooden The Answer Pap. Articles of Christian Faith are Truths Ans The Design of the Disputer is to prove that we are Doubters and therefore Infidels But never did any man begin a business more unluckily for at the very first dash he takes it for granted that we do undoubtedly believe Articles of Christian Faith to be Truths for otherwise he ought to have proved that they are so But there is another Misfortune he is faln into no less than that for his Argument to prove that we must needs be Doubters is that we want an Infallible Rule Now if he is sure that we want an Infallible Rule and that without such a Rule there can be no Faith I am sure he does notoriously contradict himself by supposing that we b●lieve all Articles of Christian Faith to be Truths though we have no such Rule This is a very hopeful Paper and like to make wise Converts which ends in making us Infidels and begins to prove it by an Argument that manifestly supposes Us to be Believers which also pretends that we have no Infallible Rule and therefore can be sure of no Point of Faith but yet manifestly supposes Us to be Assured of Some without it which shews the Paper to be a trifling Paper and worth no more Consideration But because the Disputer is said to boast so much of the Argument Contained in it I will go on with every Clause of it to Convince him if he does not already know it that there is not a Line in it but is either false or nothing to the purpose Pap. Truths are Impossible to be False Ans By Truths the Disputer means the Truth of Things or of Propositions and therefore this is a vain and fulsome saying which does not Advance his Reasoning one jot farther than it was before For this is no more than to say That which is true is true and it cannot possibly be but truths must be truths I think he applies himself to us as if we wanted not only Christian Faith but Common sence Pap. Therefore Articles of Christian Faith are Impossible to be False Ans There is no doubt of this supposing that they are Truths So that the Argument he begins with being put into the right order and into other words is this It is Impossible but truths must be truths but Articles of Christian Faith are Truths Therefore it is Impossible but they must be Truths The Ancient Fathers had made wise work with Christianity if they had gone this way to work to Convert Infidels Pap. Therefore those who obtain the Articles of the Christian Faith must have some Rule to acquire them by which cannot deceive them Ans This is an obscure saying and I must make the best of it By obtaining Articles of the Christian Faith I suppose he means believing them and by a Rule by which to acquire them He must understand a Rule or means whereby to know what the Articles of the Christian Faith are and then his meaning is That those who believe the Articles of the Christian Faith must be provided of some such Rule or Means to know what they are as cannot deceive them Now whether this be in it self true or false it does not at all follow from what he had laid down before For though the Truth of Things or Propositions is so sure that as he wisely says 't is Impossible they should be false yet it does by no means follow that the Reasons upon which I believe these things must necessarily be as sure as the Truth of the Things themselves And this I make no doubt the Disputer was well aware of But because I am sensible who they are whom he designs to pervert by this Paper and for whose sake I Answer it I will explain this matter by an Instance that will bring it down to all Capacities If there was such a man as Henry the 8th It is certainly Impossible that there should be no such man but my Belief that there was such a Man is grounded upon such Reasons as do not imply an absolute Impossibility of the Contrary because it is grounded upon the Testimony of Fallible men And yet I should be very little better then a mad-man if I should entertain the least doubt that there was such a man which plainly shews that I may have sufficient Reason to believe a thing without any Evidence of the Impossibility of the contrary and this is enough to overthrow his Consequence I shall now inquire what truth there is in the Conclusion it self To which end I observe That there are two things which may be understood by those words cannot deceive them either first that the Rule it self is so plain and certain that no man who uses it can be deceived by the Rule or secondly that 't is Impossible any man should be mistaken in the Vse of it If he means the former then I shall shew him presently that we have such a Rule as he speaks of and that he hath said nothing to make us ashamed of it If he means the latter then I say it is absolutely false That those who without doubting believe the Articles of the Christian Faith must have such a Rule to know what they are as that they cannot possibly mistake in the Vse of it To make which plain to every bodies understanding I shall add another Instance easy to be Applyed If a man skilful in Arithmetick hath a great many Numbers before him and desires to know what Sum they make when they are put together he has the Rule of Addition to do it by which Rule cannot deceive him Now there are these two things to be observed farther which I think the Disputer himself will not deny first that it is in the Nature of the thing Possible that this man may be mistaken every time that he puts these several Numbers together to bring them all into one Sum but secondly that notwithstanding this Possibility of being mistaken yet after he has tryed it over and over again he may be sure without the least doubt that he has done his work right Even so we may have a Rule of Faith that cannot deceive us and though it is not Absolutely Impossible that we should be mistaken in the use of it yet we may for all that be Assured and believe without the least doubting that we have learn'd what the true Faith is by that Rule For all the World knows that it is no sufficient Reason to Doubt of any thing that

THE SUMM OF A CONFERENCE On Feb. 21. 1686. BETWEEN Dr. Clagett and Father Gooden About the Point of TRANSVBSTANTIATION LONDON Printed for William Rogers at the Sun over-against St. Dunstan's Church in Fleetstreet MDCLXXXIX ERRATA PAge vi l. 4. for me r. us ib. l. 6. for me r. us p. viii l. 4. r. a greater thing than the Representers answering c. p. 2. after l. 13. add Now against This I thus argue p. 2. l. 14. add in the beginning Dr. The SUM of a CONFERENCE On Feb. 21. 1686. BETWEEN Dr. Clagett and Father Gooden About the POINT of TRANSUBSTANTIATION Introduction IT will perhaps appear to some a little strange that I do not say almost Incredible that there should have pass'd a Conference above two years since in which Mr. Gooden was concern'd and the World yet to learn the Substance of it The Vanity of that Gentleman to thrust himself upon all Occasions into Disputes with the most Learned Men of our Church first and then to boast of his own Performances in them was so great that there is scarce a Coffee-house in the Town that has not been filled with the Noise of his Impertinent Vapours And if those of the Other Communion have been always remarkable for an Assurance becoming the pretended Infallibility of their Church I may venture to say that next to Father P the Jesuit and his friend Mr. M I scarce know any among them that have ever talk'd so loud or made such Heroical Defiances of the Champions and Armies of our Israel in all Places and upon all Occasions as Mr. Gooden these late Years has done am ng us But thus shallow Waters always run with the Greatest Noise and Violence and little Sophisters who either want Capacity to see into their own Fallacies or think they have forehead enough to c●rry that off with Clamour and Confidence which they cannot do by Reason and Argument delight to expose themselves and their Religi n to the most dangerous Tryals whilst Men of Learning and Judgment are modest and ingenuous and know it to be neither for the Honour of their Church nor their own Reputation to challenge all Mankind to answer Paradoxes and to shew that not to be Demonstration which when brought to the Tryal is hardly sence See Mr. G's Pap. I hope will this not be thought too severe a Reflection on the late Pretenders of this kind among us which I speak out of a just respect to the more Learned and Charitable Persons of the Church of Rome who have been no less Scandalized at these f●rward Zealots than our selves and to whom I ought to give this Testimony That during a long acquaintance with many of them I never met with any thing of the Vanity of those I have before mentioned Our Differences in matters of Religion made no Disturbance either in our Friendship or Conversation with One Another If the discourse at any time led to a Controversie of Faith we argu'd it upon the same Principles and with the s●●e Calmness that we did any other Subject whatsoever by Arguments drawn from the Authority of the Holy Scriptures or from the Testim●n●es of the Ancient Fathers as the Nature of the thing required us to do I● these did not Convince they never flew off to the Common Place Topic's of the Authority and Infallibility of the Church m●ch less to that Exploded refuge of Oral Tradition but the Controversie Ended And when all was done they were content to h●pe well of those of our Church who being sincere in their Enquiries and willing to be led by Truth whereever it was still continued to differ from them Instead of calling Me a Heretick or Schismatick or Thundring out Damnation against Me as such a mutual Charity concluded the discourse We hoped and prayed for the Conviction of the Erring Party which ever it was but made no question but that the same Heaven might receive us All tho we should continue to disagree to the last But this was not the Temper of Mr. Gooden and the rest of the little Herd of that Church who gave so much Trouble and Disturbance to their own and the Nations repose and have contributed what in them lies by their Heat and Folly to ruine both themselves and u● As for the Occasion of the present Conference it was this A Gentlewoman of a Good Estate and intimately acquainted with divers R. Cs. was by a frequent Conversation with them wrought up by degrees into an Extraordinary Opinion of the advantages of a Recluse Life for the better performing the Exercises of Religion Ins●much that the desire she began to have for such a sort of retirement made her almost willing to leave our Church and go over to the Roman Communion but that she still look'd upon their Doctrine in those points wherein they differ from us to be False and Dangerous and to one so persuaded as she was Destructive of Salvation Being thus prepared for their Seduction they let slip no Opportunity to finish their work and gain their Proselyte For which purpose care was taken first by one of Her Acquaintance to represent to Her all the Popular Pretences of that Church by which many are Prejudiced in Favour of it and the Advantages it Had in point of Antiquity Unity Universality Infallibility and what not beyond Ours and then in the next place to get Father Gooden brought to Her as one that would give Her a fuller satisfaction in all these matters if she would but afford him the Opportunity of Discoursing with Her. And to the End his Arguments might make the deeper Impression upon Her it was thought fit to set forth the Priest to Her not in the Glorious Idea of the Great Master of Demonstration one who had devoured all Mr. I. Ss. Principles and was thereby become such a Mighty Man of Controversy that none of our Divines durst Cope with him He in whose hands the Dean of Pauls himself was nothing who had a certain Paper that in a few lines baffled all that could be said or written in favour of the Reformation which was a greater thing answering in a few sheets all the Books and Sermons that had ever been publish'd or preach'd against them But in the humble Character of a Countrey Priest a little inconsiderable man amongst them and his Dress was accommodated to his Character that so under this disguise he might talk with the greater Advantage to her But Mr. Gooden forgetting the person he had put on presently fell into his usual strain He began to talk of nothing but Infallibility Antiquity Demonstration That all the Fathers and Councils were on their side That he had baffled our most considerable Divines and particularly the Dean of Pauls who had in truth all of them so little to say for themselves when he came amongst them that he desired nothing more to convince her of the Truth of their Doctrines than that she would pitch upon some Point and bring

one of our Men to meet him and she should see what work he would make with him Such a noise as this from one of the little inconsiderable Priests of the Church of Rome amazed the poor Lady and had he Prudently contented himself with the Boast of the Victories he had already gain'd without aspiring after the Honour of adding one more for the increasing his Triumph he might possibly have saved himself from the shame of that discovery the following Conference made of his Abilities and have gain'd his Proselyte But as great Wits are too often a little inconsiderate and before they are aware run themselves into difficulties out of which they cannot tell afterwards how to extricate themselves so it fell out with Mr. Gooden on this Occasion For the Lady presently took hold on his Offer and applied her self to Dr. Clagett and the Time and Place and Subject being fix'd Mr. Gooden and the Doctor met accordingly at Grays-Inn Feb. 21. 1686. I shall say nothing of the Menage of the Conference its self but that it was with much Noise on Mr. Gooden's side who in Discourse let fall some very extraordinary things and which might have pass'd into the Abstract too had not another Person who was with him and seem'd much more modest and understanding than himself observed what pass'd and corrected his Blunders After the Dispute was ended which lasted about Four or Five Hours a new Discourse arose about the Paper which Mr. Gooden made such Boasts of about the Town and had so often represented to the Lady and others as unanswerable He was very unwilling a great while to let the Doctor have a Copy of it tho he promised to give him an Answer to it till at last it was declared That if he refused to let him have it the Company would look upon it as an idle Paper that had nothing in it and that therefore he durst not trust him with it Vpon this he gave him a Copy of it and the Doctor in pursuance of his Promise the next day sent him the following Answer to it For what concerns the Sum of the Conference here Published it was taken in Writing and signed by both Parties upon the place so that there can be no cause for any one to question the sincerity of it And tho the Abstract be very short yet I am persuaded it is enough to satisfie every impartial Reader why Mr. Gooden did not care to make any boasts of it And those who were present at the Meeting and heard all that pass'd between them as well as the Lady for whose sake they met were very well satisfied that he would not force them to publish the History of it But tho the Doctor was willing to let this matter die and shew'd himself as careful of Mr. Gooden's Reputation after the Conference as he was of the Ladies Conviction in it yet being now by the Providence of God removed from us I thought it a just debt to his Memory to subjoin here a true Copy of these Papers there being several of them abroad both to prevent an imperfect Edition from some other hand and lest Mr. Gooden and his Friends who were so silent in his Life-time should take occasion to raise any false Reports of this Encounter if they thought they could not be disproved now he is dead And if the great Esteem I had for that Excellent Person and most useful Instrument of God's Service in our late dangerous and critical Times does not render me a very incompetent judg of whatever comes from his hand the Reader will find even in these short Notes enough to reward his Pains and to keep him from thinking the time lost that he shall please to spend in the perusal of them A Private Conference BETWEEN Dr. Clagett and Father Gooden ABOUT Transubstantiation c. FAther Gooden Proposed the Rule of Faith to be the Subject of the Conference but upon the Request of the Lady for whose sake it was the Question of Transubstantiation was taken And the Father desiring that the Doctor would be the Opponent the Question was Stated on both Sides Dr. That the Doctrine of Transubstantiation is false Doctrine and That the Natural Body of Christ is not in the Sacrament but in Heaven Fa. That after the Words of Consecration the true Body and Blood of Christ are in the Holy Eucharist and that the manner is well exprest by Transubstantiation Dr. This is not all the Doctrine of Transubstantion in the Church of Rome the Doctrine of the Church of Rome is this That the Substance of the Bread is chang'd into the Substance of Christ's Body and the Substance of the Wine is chang'd into the Substance of Christ's Blood which Change the Church of Rome does conveniently call Transubstantiation If the Substance of Bread remains in the Eucharist then it is not chang'd into the Substance of Christ's Body But the Substance of Bread remains in the Eucharist Therefore the Substance of Bread is not changed into the Substance of Christ's Body Fath. I deny the Minor viz that the substance of Bread does remain Dr. If Bread remains the substance of bread remains But Bread remains Therefore the substance of bread remains Fath. If the Nature of Bread remains Bread remains but if only the Name of Bread and Species remain then Bread does not remain Dr. That Bread which is properly Natural Bread remains in the Eucharist is proved from 1 Cor. 11.26 As often as ye eat this Bread and drink this Cup ye do shew forth the Lord's death till he come 1 Cor. 10.16 The Bread which we break is it not the Communion of the Body of Christ Now from hence we argue thus If that which is here said to be Broken and to be the Communion of the Body of Christ be properly natural Bread then that which is properly natural Bread remains in the Eucharist Fath. I grant the Major Dr. But that which is here said to be broken and to be the Communion of the Body of Christ is properly natural Bread Ergo Properly natural Bread remains in the Eucharist Fath. I deny the Minor. Dr. The Bread of which Saint Paul speaks is Bread that may be broken and therefore it is truely and properly natural Bread. Fath. I distinguish the Antecedent as to the Accidents and Appearance of Bread it may be broken as to the Nature of Bread it cannot because it is not there Dr. This is to beg the Question for the Question is whether Bread be there or not and the Argument to prove that it is there is Because Saint Paul speaks of Bread that might be and was broken but it is no sufficient Answer to this to say that the Accidents of Bread may be broken because the Bread is not there it self which is the thing that was disproved Fath. The Question to be proved was that the Nature of Bread was there therefore it is not a begging of the Question according to the Distinction