but also by the inward heavenly comforts and spirituall strength which they thereby and from thence receive doe sensibly perceive that Gods hand is with them and he doth in them speake to their consciences then they need no more the judgement of the Church nor of any externall judge to assure them that the Scriptures are Gods true infallible word for though all professors in the world or an Angell from heaven should preach and affirme the contrarie they will not assent unto them but rather count them as Anathema and accursed as the Apostle commands Gal. 1. 8. Mr. Fisher. They who are true Catholikes and rest upon the judgement of the Church have as much assurance and certaintie of the truth of the Scriptures as is needfull from the testimonie of the Church for they build vpon the rocke against which the gates of hell cannot prevaile But you teach men to build their faith on their owne private spirit and you are lead every one of you by his owne conceit which is the cause of so many sects and schismes and severall opinions among you every one assuming to himselfe presumptuously such an infallibilitie of judgement in matters of faith as doth not belong to any private man neither can bee attained unto by the common and vulgar sort of Christians Mr. Walker You shew your selfe by this speech of yours to be not onely a meere carnall man such a one as hath never felt the lively worke of Gods spirit in his heart nor tasted of the heavenly gift but also a brutish man corrupting that reason and darkning that light which by nature is in you which I will evidently shew divers waies First you preferre the externall testimonie of the Church before the internal testimonie of Gods spirit and make it a more sure rocke to build on than the Holy Ghost who is the spirit of truth Secondly you seeme to exempt and exclude the common sort of Christians and all private men from the communion of the Holy Ghost and from that gift and grace and inward worke of the spirit by which they are illuminated to see and perswaded to beleeve the truth of Gods word every one particularly in his owne soule and with his owne heart contrary to the Scriptures which teach that the spirit of Jehovah resting first and originally on Christ the head Isa. 11. 2. is from him inspired and infused into all and every faithfull member of his body the Church Rom. 8. 9. in such sort that they are said by that one spirit to be baptized into one bodie whether they be Iewes or Gentiles 1 Cor. 12. 13. and their bodies are said to be temples of the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in them 1 Cor. 3. 16. and 6. 19. and by this spirit they are said to have the gift of knowledge and faith 1 Cor. 12. and to be led into all truth Ioh. 16. Thirdly you call the holy spirit of Christ which we challenge in Christ by a common right as common to all the elect and which doth worke the same faith and knowledge in every particular Christian by the name of a private spirit wherein you shew most palpable ignorance overspreading your carnall eyes and possessing your carnall heart For that spirit which flowes from that one common fountaine of all goodnesse even God the Father of all and is sent forth in and through the name of that one common Mediatour and Saviour of the world his Sonne Iesus Christ which is also the same in Christ the head and in the whole universall bodie of the elect and faithfull and doth worke in all and every one particularly the same common knowledge of the same truth and the same common faith in the same promised seed And all this by no private motions or inspirations separated from the word of God but onely by that common meanes even the word of Christ spoken by his mouth and written by his Prophets and Apostles in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament this spirit can in no case be called a private spirit For it is the propertie of the Holy Ghost the true Comforter to come from the Father in the Sonnes name and to teach the truth and worke faith by the common rule and meanes of the Scriptures and not to speake of himselfe new things which Christ had not spoken before but onely to speake what he hath heard and so to receive of Christs and to give to us and to lead us into all truth by calling to our mindes the word spoken by Christ and recorded in the Scriptures and by writing it in our hearts as our Saviour plainly testifieth Ioh. 16. 13 14. This spirit which is discerned by these properties we challenge to our selves by the common right of the elect in Christ and he it is who doth testifie to our spirits that the holy Scriptures are the true infallible word and doth transforme our soules into the obedience of them and doth worke in us that same faith by which all the Saints have beene justified and saved from the beginning of the world But now as I have shewed you which is the true spirit of God common to all the elect and faithfull and that by his properties observed from the words of Christ our Saviour and also that the spirit of Protestants is that spirit So I demand of you whether you Papists have any such spirit working in you that faith and knowledge of the Scriptures which you build on the testimonie and authoritie of the Church If you say that you have no such spirit but are led every one by his owne sense then are you carnall and sensuall men not spirituall by your owne confâ—ssion If you say that you have the spirit moving every one of you particularly to rest on the judgement of the Church of Rome and causing you to beleeve that the Pope cannot erre and that the Scriptures which he doth commend unto you are therefore Gods word then I would know of you why that spirit so resting and working in every particular Papist should not be esteemed a private spirit as well as that which works in every Protestant Mr. Fisher. Your spirit is a private spirit because he leads every one of you into severall opinions and private interpretations of Scripture which have never beene received in the Church nor commonly acknowledged of the godly Fathers and Doctors Mr. Walker If you have no more to say for your selfe than this I shall easily convince you by your owne mouth and prove from your owne words that the spirit of Papists not the spirit of Protestants is indeed a private spirit For first our spirit perswades us to receive for Gods infallible word no other Scriptures but those which by the common consent of all the ancient Fathers and of all sorts of Christians even of you Papists your selves are held for Canonicall but you Romanists receive divers Scriptures for Canonicali which by S. Hierome and other Ancients and by all the reformed Churches
the paper and under the first assertion which hee had before granted viz. That they who teach doctrines contrarie to Gods word are not lawfull successors of the Apostles hee writes an ambiguous answer in these words I grant but Catholikes doe not so Mr. Walker Against this answer Master Walker excepted that it was an equivocation and might bee vnderstood two waies either thus I Fisher out of my private opinion or for some purpose grant this proposition to bee true but it is not granted by Catholikes generally or else thus I grant that they who teach doctrines contrarie to Gods word are not true successors of the Apostles but Catholikes doe not so teach If you meane the first way and in the first sense you doe but mocke us But if you speake in the latter sense your answer is more than needs and is a denying of an assumption which I have not yet expressed viz. That Catholikes doe teach doctrines contrarie to the Scriptures If by Catholikes you understand all such as hold the true Catholike faith I doe not neither will charge them with that which you denie before hand But if by Catholikes you understand Papists your conscience doth accuse you before hand and I will prove that supposed assumption which you denie to wit That the Papists teach doctrines contrarie to the Scriptures Mr. Fisher. I pray you be not so hastie let us come fairely and easily to another chiefe thing unto which I labour to bring you which will bee more materiall as you shall see presently then taking the paper hee writes a fourth proposition in these words This companie of Doctors and Pastors succeeding one another appointed to instruct people in all ages and to confirme them in faith could not performe their duties without being so knowne in the world that all men of all ages might haue recourse to them and might learne from them all truth neither could they be so secret that all stories should bee silent of the Doctors and doctrines taught by them in all ages Mr. Walker This proposition when Master Walker had read with an audible voice hee asked the Iesuit whether it were his purpose to dispute upon it which hee affirming hee answered that it was not a fit proposition to be disputed because it contained a great number of questions and equivocations and being urged by the Iesuit to shew his exceptions against it hee noted downe these particulars First that it is absurd to hold that all Pastors and Doctors lawfully succeeding the Apostles were knowne in the world to all men of all ages for there be many thousands of such Pastors who were knowne to none but to the men of the ages in which they lived Secondly it is an error to hold that all the men of the ages in which they lived had recourse unto them and learned of them the truth for it is sufficient that their owne flocks even the sheepe of Christ did know them and heare their voice Thirdly men may bee true Pastors lawfully succeeding the Apostles though they teach not all truth but onely the maine points of faith necessarie to salvation Fourthly such true Pastors may bee so secret that all stories may bee silent of them and of their teaching and doctrine Fifthly though their names and doctrines were recorded in the stories of those ages yet the stories now extant may be silent of them because some Popes by name Gregorie the 7. did corrupt and deface all sorts of records and writings both civill and ecclesiasticall which made against their forged primacie pride and corrupt doctrine as Aventine testifies lib. 5. Annal. Boiorum By which meanes many ecclesiasticall stories perished and others are corrupted untill this day Mr. Fisher. To the first of these exceptions the Iesuit yeelded and limited his long speech by adding immediatly after the word ages this clause in which they lived Concerning the second exception he asked this question Whether none but the sheepe of Christ did know the true Pastors and heare them It was answered That it was enough that they were knowne and heard by the sheepe of Christ To which Fisher replied That their persecutors must needs know them and heare of their doctrine or else how coula they actually persecute them and their doctrine Master Walker answered That their persecutors did not know Christ to be the Lord of life nor them to bee his seruants nor the truth of their doctrine for then they would not have persecuted them onely such as in persecuting them did sinne against the light of the holy Ghost if there were any such persecutors they did know them and their doctrine To the third exception Fisher first yeelded and inserted after these words to learne from them all truth this clause in all the maine points necessary to salvation and then he asked what he did understand by a maine point Master Walker answered That by a maine point he understood that which the infallible Scriptures of the old and new Testament doe teach to bee necessary to salvation and require that we should so beleeve it To the fourth and fifth exceptions he gave no answer but labouring to decline the mention of them takes the paper and writes downâ— a cavilling demand concerning the maine points necessary to salvation in these words Name what particular points these are or give a generall definition by which all sorts even of Protestants shall agree to be such Which when Master Walker had read he answered to this effect Mr. Walker Now Mr. Fisher you doe shew your selfe in your colours what you are indeed and what I have ever since I first knew you suspected you to be even a very idle wrangling Sophister unskilfull in the art of Logicke and ignorant in the rules of disputation First if you demand a generall definition of a maine point necessary to salvation that I have given already when I wrote downe that it was that which the infallible Scriptures doe teach to be necessary to salvation But your words are senslesse in themselues and I cannot tell what you meane by this clause a definition by which all sorts of Protestants shall agree to be such This speech savours of distraction For no sorts of Protestants doe goe about to make themselves to agree to be maine points of truth necessarie to salvation we desire only to know beleeve and teach such points Mr. Fisher. Fisher thus caught in his owne net had no other way to winde out himselfe but onely urged Master Walker to name all the particular points which the Scriptures doe teach for maine points necessarie to salvation To which Master Walker thus answered Mr. Walker Indeed I commend your wit and wise providence for if you could perswade me to undertake the naming of all such particular points you know it would require more time than till to morrow night and by this meanes you should escape without disputation and sleepe quietly in a whole skinne this night But you shall not so escape For I
FISHERS folly unfolded OR THE VAVNTING IESVITES VANITY discovered in a challenge of his by him proudly made but on his part poorely performed VNDER TAKEN AND answered by GEORGE VVALKER Pastor of S. IOHN Euangelist in Watlingstreet LONDON M. D.C.XXIIII FISHERS folly unfolded OR THE VAVNTING Iesuits vanitie discovered in a challenge of his by him proudly made but on his part poorely performed undertaken and answered by GEORGE WALKER Pastor of S. IOHN Euangelist in Watlingstreet LONDON IN the hot Moneth of Iune last past viz. Anno 1623. when the courages of our true-hearted English people were generally much cooled through the absence of our rising Sunne the illustrious Prince CHARLES then detained too long in Spaine among the Antipodes of our Nation but the Priests and Iesuites those hot lovers of the Romish Babylon enraged with the lusts of that proud whore and puffed up with hope of prevailing in this Land were as busie as waspes and hornets about our beehives and as wolves about our folds seducing our flocks and sending generall challenges of disputation to our Shepherds every where It so hapned that Father Fisher the Iesuit a man as famous for his forwardnesse and impudencie in challenging as foolish in performance and of as great esteeme and name among the blinde Papists as of little worth in himselfe and in the judgement of wise learned men was by the meanes and procurement of one of his disciples drawne into the lists to fight a single combat with Master Walker above named in manner and forme following First a disciple of his a desperate Popish Novice resorting often to the house of an elder brother of his owne who dwelt in Cheapside and as the fashion of such seduced Popelings is railing upon the religion and vilifying the learning and gifts of Protestants did most intemperately extoll the Church of Rome and the learning of her Priests especially of Fisher the Iesuit whom he did by name praise to the heavens for his disputation with Doctor White before the Kings Majestie and did not only boast of a glorious victory which there he had obtained but also did proclaime him a challenger of all Preachers in England and did dare the most hardie to meet him face to face in any place or before any Auditors where they might dispute conveniently A younger brother of his who was a Protestant and lived in the house with his elder brother being often assailed and attempted by him and not able to endure any longer his boasting and daring speeches did by his elder brother and others importune Master Walker to accept the challenge which he did upon condition that a convenient day might be agreed upon and appointed by both parties That the challenge is accepted they signifie to their Popish brother Fishers Novice He wonders that any dare be so hardie as to yeeld so far in promise and tels them that the promise will never be performed neither will any Protestant Minister be so bold as to meet his invincible Master Fisher but being urged and pressed to make a triall hee brings word at length upon a Satturday at night that the next Munday the Iesuit Fisher will come to his brothers house to encounter with any opposite whomsoever They send word to Master Walker who having urgent businesse desired to have the meeting deferred till the next day or till the evening of that day but could not obtaine so much neverthelesse because he would in no case forgoe that opportunitie of disputation with Fisher nor give occasion to the insulting Novice to triumph who upon his excuse of urgent businesse in that day began to boast that the victorie was gotten and that he knew and foretold before hand how they should finde it and that no Protestant durst be so hardie as to meet Fisher in the face he willingly did lay aside all businesse and promising to be ready at the time appointed sent word to the Iesuit that if he did not appeare at his owne houre which was upon Munday at ten of the clocke before noone he should be judged the coward and left without all excuse At the houre appointed Master Walker came and heard nothing of the Iesuit for he came not till toward dinner time but then comming with his Novice who was brother to the master of the house he was entertained with a dinner till Master Walker was againe sent for Who about one of the clocke returned and by the way called upon Master Burton Pastor of S. Matthewes parish in Friday street and did request him to goe along with him and to be a witnesse of the whole cariage of the businesse At their first entrance Master Fisher complained because they came two against one Master Burton did assure him that he came onely to be an hearer and promised that he would not speake nor intermeddle except when both parties should agree to it Then divers friends and neighbours to the Master of the house comming in to heare and see what passed Master Walker began to speake to the Jesuit as followeth Mr. Walker Sir if that fame and report which you and your friends have raised and which goeth abroad concerning your worth and learning be true you must needs be a man able to doe more for the Romish religion than any other of your fellowes now living or of your predecessors going before We who have heard of your bold intrusion into the Court and the presence of our learned King and of your challenges which you have made and sent to Doctor White and other men of great learning and note doe expect from you some extraordinarie grounds and arguments for the Popish religion and such skill and learning as hath not beene seene before in any of your profession Our desire is therefore that at this time you will make knowne unto us some of your best skill and shew us some of the chiefe grounds upon which you build your faith and religion And I for my part if I cannot overthrow them by Gods word will very willingly yeeld unto them and acknowledge that you have the truth on your side The Iesuit at the mention of his great fame and report shewed a kinde of itching delight and used never a word tending by way of modestie to extenuate his learning and gifts but as one desirous to increase his owne fame and to justifie the report which the blinde Papists give out concerning his worth breaks out with a smiling sigh into a Pharisaicall commendation of himselfe to this effect Mr. Fisher. Indeed I must confesse that I have alwaies from my childhood loved the truth and diligently sought after it Once I was a Protestant God forgive me and did with an hungring desire inquire after the truth but could never receive any satisfaction among any sects of Protestants but spent my labour in vaine still remaining full of doubts and scruples Whereupon I did with all humilitie fasting and prayer seeke unto God and pray unto him to guide me into the way
of truth Who at length for my humilitie and the sinceritie of my heart did grant my request and did draw me unto the Catholike Church where I found the truth and a sure ground to rest upon from which I purpose never to be moved but will hold me to it for ever Mr. Burton Mr. Burton grieved to heare the Iesuit boasting after such a Pharisaicall manner could not refraine but taxed him of pride and hypocrisie for ascribing his calling and his knowledge of the truth and of true religion as he termed it to the merit of his owne humilitie sinceritie and his praiers which he made before his conversion while he remained in ignorance Mr. Walker Mr. Walker also taking hold of his speech desired to ground a disputation upon his words and offered to prove that the Iesuit did erre most damnably and heretically in the first grounds of his faith and religion in that he builded his first calling upon the merit of his owne vertues and of his works which he performed before his calling in the state of ignorance and blindnesse He also taxed him of manifest absurditie and contradiction in his speech in that he first so farre vilified and condemned the Protestant state and counted it so sinfull and damnable that he asked forgivenesse of God for his once being a Protestant and yet immediatly did attribute his conversion and calling into the Catholike Church unto the merit of works which in that state he performed Moreover he charged him with extreame folly and madnesse for abandoning and forsaking that Church state wherein by his owne confession he did performe works meritorious and betaking himselfe to the service and slaverie of the Church of Rome that whore of Babylon the reward and just wages of whose servants and followers is shewed in Gods word Revel 19. to be the wrath of God and eternall vengeance in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone for evermore For answer to these obiections the Iesuit complained that it was uneqvall for two to set against one both at once And Master Burton desiring to bee excused for that he could not but out of his zeale reprove his palpable boasting of his owne merits promised to be silent hereafter if he would fall to disputation with Master Walker Then the Iesuit proceeded and spake to this effect Mr. Fisher. The Church of Rome of which I am a member is the onely true Catholike Church for it holdeth the same truth which Christ and his Apostles commended to it and hath not altered nor erred in any maine point but holds the same still which all true Catholike and Orthodox Fathers and Doctors did teach as here is manifestly shewed and proved in this booke by Gualtherius meaning Gualtherius his Chronographica sacra which there hee had brought and laid before him on the table who doth produce plaine testimonies of the Fathers in all ages from the time of Christ confirming the maine points of the Roman Catholike religion wherein Protestants dissent from Catholikes I doe challenge you to shew the like evidences for the Religion and doctrine which your Church doth hold which because you cannot doe it is manifest that you have not the truth neither are a true Church Mr. Walker Well Master Fisher if this be the best ground which you have to build vpon wee shall easily answer you and make it appeare that you are not the man which flying fame reports you to be and that you build on a sandie foundation I did expect some grounds and arguments gathered out of the sacred Scriptures and hewed out of the rocke of Gods word by the hand and art of some deeply learned Divine but I perceive that the best testimonie which you have to alleage for your Religion is that booke composed by one of your owne side and all you can say for your selfe is as the old Proverbe runnes Aske my fellow theese if I be a true man which you know it stands him upon to affirme whether true or false As for â—â—â—â—â—rius hee is as bold impudent and shamelesse a Paâ—â—st as needs put pen to paper For those testimoniâ—s of forged Fathers and of old Liturgies which all the learned of your Religion who have any wit learning or dram of modestie appearing in them have reiected he doth boldly and familiarly cite and produce for proofes without any shame or blushing If I should for our Religion cite and produce a booke of Luther or Calvin or any other Protestant you would laugh mee to scorne yea you reiect the bookes of the Fathers printed or set forth among us though you could never iustly tax or convince any one of us of partiall dealing or of the least wilfull falsification Let mee further admonish you that you shew little discretion in bringing humane testimonies especially of late writers to maintaine your Religion against me or to confute my Religion For I am as you know a Preacher of the Gospell one of them whom yee call Protestants and wee doe not build upon any but the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles Christ himselfe being the head corner stone We doe not regard in a controverted point of faith what any Father or Doctor doth hold or hath held in former ages but what Christ and his Prophets and Apostles haue left recorded in the infallible Scriptures of the old and new Testament and what the Fathers haue truly from thence observed We use the learned who have gone before us as helps and guides in places of Scripture and opinions which are doubtfull but wee doe as they desired denie their testimonies to bee grounds of faith Wherefore let us leave off all superfluous and idle allegations and discourses and let us come to a strict forme of disputation about some maine points of controversie If you be pleased to oppose any speciall article of our faith I will defend it or if you will take upon you to answer I will prove against you That your father the Pope is Antichrist That the Church of Rome is the whore of Babylon That your doctrine of merit of iustification before God by your owne workes is hereticall And that your Image-worship is damnable idolatrie Mr. Fisher. If you bee so forward to dispute I am for you and I come for that purpose But have you no other points to prove saue these That the Pope is Antichrist and the Church of Rome the whore of Babylon I remember that you urged me to dispute upon these above three yeeres agoe when you came to me in the New-prison belike you spend all your time and studie in these questions Mr. Walker It is true that I desired to dispute upon these questions foure yeeres agoe and then you refused I hope you have since studied how to defend them though then you were unprovided Indeed I doe offer these questions first of all to every Priest and Iesuit with whom I meet because the proving of any one of them doth at one blow overthrow all Poperie but you
doe appeale to all here present whether this be not a meere wrangling shift to avoid disputation for the present And I doe here charge you if your owne conscience doth not inwardly tell you that either your Religion is so false that it cannot be defended or you your selfe so unlearned that you are unable to maintaine it that you doe without further delay agree to dispute with me vpon some maine points of controuersie betweene Protestants and Papists If you refuse I will tax you for a faint hearted coward and dastard and so esteeme you hereafter at all times Mr. Fisher. But if I yeeld to dispute with you who shall be Iudge betweene us Mr. Walker The chiefe judge of all shall be the word of God and these hearers shall judge of the forme and cariage of our disputation and to whom the victory doth belong Mr. Fisher. They know not the word of God neither can you your selfe certainly tell which is the true word of God M. Walker Yes I haue it here at hand to shew and taking out of his pocket Plantines Hebrew Bible in octauo without pricks bound with a Syriacke and Greeke Testament Loe saith he here is the true word of God even the whole Scriptures of the old and new Testament in the originall tongues wherein they were first spoken by the spirit of God and written by his penmen Mr. Fisher. How doe you know that this booke is the word of God and the originall Scriptures Mr. Walker I know that all not only Protestants but Papists acknowledge and confesse it so to be First Papists because Arias Montanus a great learned Doctor of the Church of Rome did set it forth and Plantine a Catholike Printer did print it and that at the charges of Philip the second your great Catholike King of Spaine so that you being a Romane Catholike cannot except you have cast off all shamefastnesse but acknowledge it for the word of God in the originall tongues Secondly we Protestants are so confident of the infallible truth of the word contained in this booke that we altogether build our faith and religion upon it Mr. Fisher. How doe you know that Plantine printed this booke Mr. Walker Loe here the title page where it is testified to be printed by him at Antwerp and the yeere of the world according to the lesse account of the Iewish Rabbins is here specified with these words he shewed the book and page to Fisher who discerning it to be printed in such a Character as he could not reade put it from him as if he had beene afraid to looke on it Whereupon Master Walker began to play upon him and taking advantage of his ignorance made the company some sport saying What Master Fisher are you a learned Iesuit and one of the Popes great champions and yet can you not reade this faire print I cry you mercy Graecum est non potest legi yea it is worse than so it is Hebrew printed in Hebrew words and letters which to the common sort of Popish Priests is more terrible and dreadfull than conjuring figures But in good sadnesse can you not reade it or doe you but dissemble Master Fisher I am afraid by your gestures that you are in earnest and your countenance doth make me so confident of your ignorance that I will adventure my booke upon it and though I will not otherwise take twenty shillings for it yet I here before all this company promise to give it you for your paines if you can but reade one sentence in it out of the originall text Which offer when Fisher refused some of the standers by laughed at him others wondred whether this were Fisher the Iesuit and made a question of it Master Burton who had promised silence observing the Iesuits folly by this behaviour and other idle speeches told him that he must give him leave to laugh and not be offended for he had by his promise at the beginning bound himselfe from speaking but not from laughing Mr. Fisher. The Iesuit plunged into this perplexitie thought it best to be gone and said that his businesse called him away he could stay no longer Mr. Walker Mr. Walker answered that this was an idle excuse For saith he you know Master Fisher that this day and houre was appointed by your selfe and set apart for disputation and though my businesse was great I was forced to lay all aside for this worke because no other day nor time would be accepted Therefore it is very unlikely that any businesse should now call you away or that you should appoint this time for any other imployment except you came either in hope to finde no adversarie which durst encounter you or with purpose if any appeared to shift off disputation by some such device By these and such speeches as also by the importunitie of the standers-by the Iesuit was detained and falling into the question about the infallible word of God after many speeches which passed to and fro about the originall Scriptures and the translations which was most authenticall and which translations the best and most uncorrupt and free from grosse errors Master Walker to cut off all needlesse discourse about such questions did very earnestly demand of the Iesuit whether he thought the vulgar Latine translation of the Bible to be the most pure uncorrupt and authenticall edition of the Scriptures and the true word of God according to the determination of the Councell of Trent Mr. Fisher. Fisher answered that he held it to be the uncorrupt word of God and the most authentike edition of the Scriptures Mr. Walker And though I doe much dissent from you in this opinion saith Master Walker and doe hold that of all translations which are of any esteeme among Christians there is none so full of errors and mistakings even in the judgement of S. Hierome himselfe upon whom the Papists falsly father it yet so far I doe approve of it that I doe not doubt but any learned Divine may easily gather teach and confirme out of it all doctrines which are necessarie to salvation For whatsoever necessarie truth is omitted in one place by mis-translatiō it is plainly expressed in some other places of the same which are truly and faithfully translated And here I doe make a faire offer and most equall motion to you before all here present viz. That I will undertake to make a plaine confession of the Protestants faith and of all the articles of religion which the Church of England holds necessarie to salvation in the very words and sentences of the vulgar Latine Bible without any materiall alteration at all upon condition that you when I have made good my word and promise will grant and acknowledge that the confession so made is a true confession of the true Christian faith and that all such articles are to be received and embraced for articles of the true religion Mr. Fisher. This offer when the Iesuit refused to accept he was much condemned
are and have beene censured for Apocrypha and so you are in this more private in your opinion than we Secondly we Protestants build upon no other rock but that which is common to all the faithfull from the beginning even God himselfe who is prima veritas the first truth and upon his word of promise made in Christ the promised seed and we are founded on the Prophets and Apostles who are the common foundation both to all the fathers in the old Testament and to all Christians in the time of the Gospell But you build upon a new rocke even the Pope of Rome whom yee call the universall Bishop sitting in Peters chaire a foundation which all the faithfull forefathers before the comming of Christ were ignorant of and never heard or dreamed Neither did the first Christians in the primitive Church for divers hundred of yeeres after Christ acknowledge any such name or title but even Gregorie the Great a Bishop of Rome who lived 560. yeeres after Christ condemned it as a note of Antichrist and his forerunner as by his epistles is manifest Thirdly though divers sects of Anabaptists Familists and Enthusiasts men of fanaticall spirits have growne up like tares in the field of the reformed Churches who follow their owne private fancies imaginations and divers inspirations of Satan which have no warrant from the Scriptures but are contrary to the written word yet they are not of us we renounce their society and expell them out of our Churches and say of them as the Apostle did 1 Ioh. 2. 19. They went out from us but they were not of us And as for the interpretations of some obscure Scriptures which Luther Calvin and other learned men have lately found out and doe finde out daily which were not knowne of old nor commonly received we embrace them not for novelty nor because they are singular nor for the authoritie of the expositors themselves but because we finde them to be agreeable to the originall text and to other plaine places of the same Scriptures and to containe the old and common doctrine of Christ and his Apostles and Prophets which hath beene beleeved and embraced in all ages of all true Christians But a great number of the articles of the Romish religion concerning Image-worship Canonization of Saints Purgatorie Pardons Indulgences Transubstantiation Massing sacrificing for the dead and such like they are builded vpon private visions apparitions dreames imaginations and fancies of Friers and upon singular inspirations of Monks and other doating persons slavishly devoted to your superstitions so that the Popish spirit is indeed the same with the private fanaticall spirit of Anabaptists and Enthusiasts as plaine reason and experience doe shew Mr. Fisher. The Iesuit taking little pleasure in the hearing of these things made great shew of a desire to breake off and to be gone onely he put on a bold and impudent face to deride the opinion of Protestants concerning the gift of the spirit by which particular Christians are enabled to know and beleeve the Scriptures and to be fully perswaded and assured of the truth and true meaning of them And as for you saith he to Master Walker it is well for you that you have such an infallible spirit which doth enable you to discerne the word of God and doth more assure you of the truth thereof than the publike testimonie of the Church But pardon us if we hold it doubtfull seeing we have no more but your owne word for it Mr. Walker Yea and I will have your word professing the same of your selfe also or else I will make you appeare to all here present to be void of all true Christianitie First you shall see that all your scoffs shall not make me ashamed to professe and to proclaime the grace and gift which God hath given me for the knowledge of his word and how I come to know it by the worke of his spirit Secondly I will urge you upon your conscience to answer me whether you have experience and feeling of the same grace in you That which I can with a good conscience testifie of my selfe I hold to be no singular gift but a grace common to all true Christians and it is this First I confesse that I was borne of Christian parents and my father and mother who tenderly loved me and were also of me dearely beloved did teach me the first principles of religion from my infancie and did tell me that the holy Scriptures contained in that Bible which was read and expounded in our Church were the true word of God I being not able to judge of it my selfe beleeved it so to be upon their word and authoritie for the reverent respect and esteeme which I had of them Afterwards they caused me to frequent the Church and to heare that word read and expounded by learned Preachers and told me that I ought to beleeve what I heard out of it preached in the Church and so I did for I beleeved the Preachers publishing that word in so much that partly by their exhortations and partly out of a care which I had of my soules health and in a desire of Gods favour and blessings which were thereunto promised I did even from my youth give my minde to reade and learne the Scriptures Howsoever I must confesse that at the first and in my childish yeeres I did finde but little savour sweetnesse in the most profitable parts of the Scriptures such as Davids Psalmes Salomons Proverbs the bookes of the Prophets the Epistles of the Apostles and such like yea though I beleeved that they were Gods word yet by reason of my naturall corruption I did take more pleasure and delight in Poeticall fables and feigned histories which did feed my corruption and were a kinde of fuell to my sinfull lusts and vanities Neverthelesse whether it was mine owne conscience urging me or the spirit of God which moved me I cannot certainly tell but sure I am that still I did upon the testimonie and authoritie of my Parents and Teachers reverence the Scriptures as Gods word and force my selfe to reade them contrary to my rebellious nature and at length when I came to more ripe yeeres I found that the word which was most opposite and distastfull to my sinfuâ—l corruption did worke upon me most strongly and effectually which is an infallible token of Gods hand in it and a sure signe of the divine power and supernaturall excellencie thereof I felt the promises of the Gospell and the words of the Prophets and Apostles which before had little relish begin by Gods grace to be most sweet and comfortable in all crosses and afflictions and to be most profitable by strengthning me with the spirit of prayer and faith against temptations by mortifying my fleshly corruptions and by reforming my life so that I began to rejoyce in the Scriptures more than in any earthly treasures and did devote my selfe to the studie of them and now partly upon the
testimonie of Gods spirit witnessing inwardly with my spirit and partly upon the sense and experience which I have of the power of them in overcomming my naturall corruptions as it were against my will and partly upon that particular sight and knowledge which I have of the glory and divine Majestie shining in them I am so confident and assured that they are Gods most holy and infallible word that my conscience tels me I had rather forgoe all the world and my dearest bloud and bodily life than denie the truth of them Yea if the Church and Teachers which perswaded me first to receive them for Gods word should fall away by apostasie forsweare and denie them or any part of them or if any Angell from heaven should teach the contrary I would count them accursed as the Apostle enjoines me Gal. 1. 8. And now I can say to the Church and my Teachers as the Samaritans did to the woman who brought them to Christ Loe I have heretofore beleeved the Scriptures to be Gods word upon your testimonie and authoritie but now I see with mine owne eyes I have the inward testimonie of Gods spirit and feele by powerfull effects and by experience in my selfe that these Scriptures are Gods holy word and the power of God to salvation This I freely confesse is my knowledge and perswasion of Gods word which by these degrees I have attained unto And I daily have experience and evident signes of the same grace in all other Christians with whom I doe converse familiarly Now therefore in the second place I charge you before God and upon your conscience to answer directly and plainly before this people here present whether you have experience of the same grace in you and whether you have by these degrees oâ— any of them attained to this full assurance of knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures Mr. Fisher. What is that to you whether I have or have not Or what if I hold it needlesse to assume so much unto my selfe Mr. Walker It is very necessarie that you should doe either the one or the other And whether you confesse or denie you are taken and ensnared If you say that you have experience of this grace in you and of this gift and testimonie of the spirit then you are plainly convinced by your owne mouth of wilfull blasphemy against the Holy Ghost in that you have denied contradicted derided and scoffed at that worke of his in the Saints of God of which worke you have experience in your owne soule But if you confesse that you never felt this order and worke of grace in you and that your faith is nothing but an implicit beleeving of the Scriptures upon the Churches testimonie and authoritie without any sense or experience of the power and vertue thereof in your soule and that you blindly and desperatly cast your selfe on the Church without any particular discerning of the truth of the Scriptures or any inward testimonie of the spirit then it is certaine to say the best that you are yet a babe in Christianitie and Christ Iesus is not yet formed in you Yea I feare that you are worse than so for if after so many yeeres studie of Divinitie and so long continuance in the publike calling of a Priest and teacher of others you be found not onely destitute and void of this necessarie grace of a Christian but also an opposer and gainesayer of it and a scorner of such as professe it we cannot but deeme you a very Atheist and sonne of Belial in whom is verified that which S. Paul foretold of the slaves of Antichrist 2 Thess. 2. 12. viz. That God should send them strong delusions that they should beleeve lies and be damned not beleeving the truth but having pleasure in unrighteousnesse Also that which is testified by S. Iude of such reprobates who are of old ordained to condemnation viz. That they speake evill of those things which they know not and whatsoever things they know naturally as beasts which are without reason in those things they corrupt themselves and that they are corrupt trees and without fruit twise dead and plucked up by the roots and raging waves of the sea foaming out their owne shame and wandring starres to whom is reserved the blacknesse of darknesse for ever Mr. Fisher You are very sharpe and uncharitable in your judgement but it is no matter what you say neither will I argue more with you at this present for it is time for us to depart Mr. Walker I doe not judge you but by your owne mouth and by the infallible word of God and from henceforth I leave you to the judgement of God and to the censure of all here present who have heard you at this time onely thus much I must tell you that I doe manifestly discerne by your cariage speeches and behaviour your evill conscience and that you doe dolo malo wilfully oppose the truth and factiously cleave to the Romish religion For all here present have seene that you refuse and are afraid to be tried either by Scriptures or Fathers or disputation and reason or by the spirit of God which you would never doe so openly to your shame if your conscience did not tell you that they are all against you in the speciall articles of your religion wherein you dissent from us To this divers of them who were present gave their assent and professed that they were exceedingly deceived in their opinion of Fisher wondering that one so vaine and ridiculous as he shewed himselfe should dare to undertake the defence of his religion face to face against any learned man before any understanding hearers or that any should be either so foolish and blinde as to be seduced by him or so impudent and void of iudgement as to give him the name and report of a learned man or to number him among subtle disputants And one among the rest calling unto the Iesuit asked him very earnestly whether he were indeed that Fisher the Iesuit who disputed with Doctor White before the King which when he acknowledged Surely said the man I should never have beleeved it if any other had told me so for it could never have sunke into my minde that any of your name and report should be so absurd and ridiculous as you have here shewed your selfe For I see that neither the Originall Scriptures nor your owne translation of them nor the Fathers nor disputation and argument are of any account with you Doe you thinke that any man will be so foolish as to beleeve you who have no ground but your owne word and will But now I am glad that you have given me iust occasion as to abhorre your religion more than ever before and to esteeme you a vaine wrangler of no judgement so also to stop the mouth of some of my kinred who are of your religion and great admirers of your person and praisers of your learning by reporting and testifying unto them concerning