vndique Ire li. 3. ca. 3 conseruata est ea quae est ab Apostolis traditio In which Church saith S. Irenée that is by repayring to it the faithfull that be all about haue alwayes preserued theÌ„ selues in the tradition that coÌ„meth from the Apostles And where you say for another instance Ar. 2.3 Pur. 337. It is manifest by al Histories that the Nations of the Alanes Gothes Vandales were first conuerted by the Arrians in so saying you declare that you neuer read the Ecclesiasticall Histories presuming notwithstanding to write against these Articles which are in maner nothing els but certayne obseruations therof Reade Socrates li. 2. ca. 32. and not onely li. 4. ca. 27. and Sozomenus li. 6. ca. 37. but specially Theodoret li. 4. ca. 32. who as a Catholike Bishop of purpose to take from the Arrians that vayne bragge of theirs sheweth that the Gothes were first Catholikes and not as you say first conuerted by the Arrians but onely by false informations and to much trusting of their Bishop Vlphilas béeing another Balaam ledde out of the way You talke also of the Nations that were coÌ„uerted by the Donatists Nouatians Pur. 337. But we shall know your Histories authors hereafter Againe you say And it is also manifest by Histories Ar. 3. that the Grecians whoÌ„ the Papists count no part of their church but Schismatikes conuerted the Moscouites first of all Did the Grecians conuert them since their Schisme O great Historian The truth is there was great emulation then in the Grecians against the Latins but not schisme nor heresie as yet nor long after and therefore of our Church they were then Howbeit it is not the true faith nor our religion as you say truely which the Moscouites haue but such as they them selues did list to receiue with many qualifications and modifications of their owne such was the fruite of the Grecians emulation and such is the necessitie that S. Peter cast the nette But if Histories fayle you yet one demonstration ex per se notis you haue to proue that not we but you conuerted all true Christian Nations Ar. 2. And what is that If the Papist can proue that we hold not the same faith and trueth vnto which the Apostles conuerted the Nations we refuse to be called the Church or Congregation of Christ The Papist proueth to omitte a 1000. others of his proufes that you be Heretikes and therefore hold not the same faith c. by the testimonie of that which your selfe confesse to be the true Church of Christ here cap. 2. and cap. 3. Againe We are members witnesse your Separation here Dem. 3. Ar. 2.3 of that Church which conuerted all Landes in the earth that are conuerted to the true Religion of Christ and we affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in steed of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are readie to proue by the word of God Witnesse here cap. 8. Where all your absurd Deprauations of Gods word are answered and not that onely but also shewed by the expresse word of God among other thinges that the Sacrament of Confirmation went euery whither together with the Apostles Gospell as the chiefest point of Christianitie Ar. 3. pag. 145. But no maruaile of your audacitie to say we are readie to proue it considering that you are bold to conclude of this saying thus I haue shewed that our church holding the true Doctrine of the Apostles is that which conuerted all Nations to true Religion Then belike all those Nations were and are of your Religion and you will be content to be tryed by them as by Afrike for example whose Religion we know by Tertullian S. Cyprian S. Optatus S. Augustine c. Or if you haue better Monumentes of any other Nations Religion name it and let vs try it betwene vs. But whosoeuer séeth here cap. 3. how you are faine to charge the true Church the Primatiue Church with erring may easily coniecture what you dare doe Motiue 17. 11. Britannie Well we be English men and therefore in a seuerall Demaund I name our Countrie England or Britannie vnto you Specially because the Prophetes as you know speake much of the conuersion of Ilands expresly and namely of such Ilands as were farthest of As also because there are extaÌ„t such monumeÌ„ts of our Ilands conuersion and religion in Tertullian Origen S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Gregory the Pope with many other like and specially in the History of our owne countreyman S Bede But here Fulke telleth such English men that list not to be deceiued Pur. 346. but to see into what faith all Nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles that they were better to consider the word of God the Historie of the Acts of the Apostles and biddeth vs of so many Nations there recorded to name one Pur. 166.332 vnto which Purgatory or praying and sacrificing for the dead was taught You are profoundly seene in the Scriptures I perceiue by this Why was the Actes of the Apostles written to shew into what faith all Nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles Nay is there so much as any mention of the twelue Apostles preaching to any nation of the Gentiles No syr that booke was written to shew onely the beginning of the Church according to the Prophets to wit at Hierusalem and among the Iewes and the taking of it froÌ„ them for their deserts and geuing of it to the Gentils euen froÌ„ Hierusalem the head of the Iewes to Rome the head of the Gentiles And there S. Luke endeth it not caring to tel so much as the fulfilling of that which our Lord had foretold Act. 27. to S. Paule in whose person this traÌ„slation was wrought and not in S. Peters nor any others of the Twelue for causes to long to be here rendred Caesari te oportet assistere Thou must stand before the Emperour Because his purpose was no more but to shew the new Hierusalem of the Christians and so to leaue them to it to know what are the particulars that the Apostles taught And so withall you haue one of those Nations named in the Actes and that no common one â—o wit the Romanes which receiued of the Apostles not only the Article that you require but also all the rest which at this time it hath neither you béeing able by Scripture or otherwise to proue the contrarie so muche as in any one and we prouing it both a particulars and in the totall summe partly by Scriptures partly by other vnauoydable demonstrations Well for all this trigiuersation by which you sée what you haue wonne you will yet be content to be tryed by our Britannie Ar. 49. For you confesse that the Church of the Brytans or Welchmen before Augustine came in to conuert the Englishmen Anno 597. continued in the faith of Christ euen from the Apostles time Pur. 332. so that
your selfe also will graunt supposing once the text to be as the Councell alleageth it And therfore of your two crimes you must strike out the one to wit false or vnapt interpretation and then all is about the other wherein you say no lesse then foure times that the Councell hath falsified the words of that text And what reason yea what colour haue you for that Is it not in the vulgar Latin translation verbatim as the Councell alleageth it And so is the Councell cleared of that crime also Will you now charge your copie and frame your accusation anew agaynst the translation as differing from the original that is from the Greke But afore you do so take my counsaile with you and be sure first that the Greke is so as you say For some Greke copies Cyr. ◠Ioan. Au. i◠10. tr◠Hila. li. 7. p◠medi◠Amb◠Spi. S◠li. 3. c◠of auncient also had euen as we haue as namely the copie which S. Cyrill being a Greke Doctor expoundeth And who can doubt but the copie also of our most auncient yea and most authentical Translator had euen as he translated Which also the most auncient Latine Doctors as S. Augustine by name S. Ambrose yea and S. Hilarie too did reade iump as we do And the Latines a) vi◠Amb◠Rom◠by reason should in this matter be better witnesses then the Grekes specially séeing such varietie among the Grekes also them selues for as much as the Arrians neuer raigned so nothing like in the Latine Church as they did in the Greke where they were to cancell to chaunge to corrupt what they would And so are you answered fully in euery side nor you only but Ioachim also him selfe if he would go about to make his vantage as you instruct him One text more corrupted by our Church as he sayth and then an ende These be his words Ar. 7◠How corrupt that Latine translation is which they would needes thrust vpon vs is sufficiently knowen to all learned men euen in such textes as are the most colourable places for the defence of Popishe doctrine I will giue one example for all They alleage the texte 1. Cor. 10. Qui stat videat ne cadat He that standeth let him take heede he fall not agaynst the certaintie of fayth Whereas the Greke hath not He that standeth Stande out of his light that the child may see but He that thinketh he standeth let him take heede he fall not Why man looke better in the text 1. Cor. 10. our translation is there not as you charge it but euen as you say the Greke to be Qui se existimat stare videat ne cadat And yet you inferre saying Thus the Popishe Church can not altogether excuse her selfe from corrupting the text of the Testament whether it was of fraude or of ignorance or of negligence the Lord knoweth This is your goodly substantiall stuffe that you haue against the Popish Church which maye séeme you well amongest the blinde that will néedes follow such blinde guides But vs that haue eyes how can you alienate from it with such geare yea could you more confirme vs in our liking of it then after this sort to bewray your selues that you haue no matter no substance yea no shadow of any thing agaynst it Well in the name of God bethinke your selues in time and humble your selues to your louing Mother this one onely Church of God In olde time it was the true Church as your selfe confesse and therefore if you had liued then you would not haue spurned agaynst it you would haue bene a good childe of it yea also though you thought it to erre How much more considering now you sée that it erred not as you thought it did Proue therefore that your heart meaneth as your tongue speaketh Proue it I say by yéelding to the same Church now which you see nowe no lesse yea muche more cleared from all errors in this answere to eche error that you haue charged it withall Or at leastwise let all other men as they loue their soules forethinke thē selues and ponder wel whether these obiections are like to be admitted of their Iudge the head husband of this Church for good pleas in that generall and most terrible Court day ¶ The seuenth Chapter That he hath no other shift agaynst our manifold Euidences so cleare they be but the name of Only Scripture as well about ech controuersie as also about the meaning of Scripture it selfe And how timerous he maketh vs and how bolde he beareth him selfe herevpon WHat shamefull confessions he hath bene fayne to make agaynst his owne side and for our side it hath here many ways in sundry chapters appeared already But the same will now againe appeare much more clerely if in this Chapter we runne ouer the cōmon Euidences of Christian truth out of which I framed my declaration in my bookes of Motiues and Demaundes and consider that he is fayne to confesse them al to be against him and therfore to take exception agaynst them and say that neither they nor any thing els that can be brought foorth is good euidence in such suites but Scripture alone and such Scripture also as is so playne and manifest for the matter that it can not by any subtiltie be auoyded of the aduersarie For he knoweth well pardy that we bring foorth not other euidences alone but Scripture also with them But the others he séeth to be so playne that there is no remedie vnlesse they be cancelled Mary from our Scriptures he hath an euasion as he thinketh to wrangle and say that they be not playne and euident for vs but so that he can wrest thē to an other meaning The first part How he excepteth by Onely Scripture against all other Euidences in the controuersies that are betwene vs. j. Against the rule to know heresie c. Well then let vs heare him speake in his owne words and first how he maketh his exception being charged many wayes with the crime of heresie Notable it is both to the confirmation of the Catholike and also to the conuersion of the Heretike to beholde how the more that he fluttereth to get out the more he wrappeth him selfe in the lime Ar. 44. First Authors As in my fourth demaund old heresies demaunde xxxviij Whereas you bragge saith he to D. Allen to note vnto vs euery one of our Capitaines by their names and the seuerall errors that they taught and the time and yere when they arose agaynst the former receiued truth Except you note vnto vs the Patriarkes Prophetes Apostles Euangelistes and Christ him self you shall neuer be able to performe that you promise For we teach nothing but the eternall truth of God Wherfore we refuse not to be counted heretikes if you can proue that we holde any one article of faith contrarie to the Scripture And immediatly You may perchaunce note the names of them that preaching the truth of our
within one hundred yeares after the Apostles doth witnesse that it was vsed before his time and that it came to his time by Tradition of the Apostles The same doth S. Chrysostome S. Augustine S. Epiphanius and many mo witnesse by your owne cōfession here cap. 3. pag. 2.3.4 Are not these authenticall writers nor credible authors nowe with you who here cap. 2. pag. 11. to 22. were with you the most approued writers and the Doctors of Gods Churche I thinke Gods Church may beléeue her Doctors better then you her rebels Howbeit also any reasonable man will thinke it enough for vs to bring it vp to Tertullians time and put you to proue that then it began if you will not graunt that it came from the Apostles Ar. 43. Of another particular you say Transubstantiation no small Article of your Religion was not decreed vntill the yeare of God of our Lorde you would saye 1215. But you will not I trow inferre therevpon that then it beganne For by the same reason an Arrian maye say that Homousion no small Article of our Religion beganne in the first Nicene Councell because it was not decréed vntill then Both wordes were then decréed but the things meant by them came euen from the Apostles Lanfrācus lib. contra Bereng and was decréed also the one of them 200. yeres afore that time to witte when the Heresie of Berengarius superesse in Altari post consecrationem substantiam panis vini the substance of the bread and wine to remayne after Consecration and not only agaynst the Reall presence was condemned in diuers Councels and he glad to recant it as by the writers of the same time we know The other Argument is directly agaynst you as this was directly for vs. The 2. Arg. Your first Authors can be named after the beginning of the Church rising with their new opinions Ergo their opinions were Heresies and they were Heretikes and you be Heretikes namely maynteining the same obstinatly Here agayne you denie both the consequence and the antecedent but how friuolously I haue at large reported cap. 7. pag. 80. where you put in your poore and colde exception of Onely Scripture hauing nothing els to stay agaynst the Auncient Fathers who both made that consequence and also noted your beginners but that they muste proue all by Scripture or els neither doth their argument holde neither was Aerius c. your first Author As also in another place you say to D. Allen therevpon Your rule is false For you leaue out the chiefest condition Pur. 413. which js that the opinion it selfe be contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles or els it is no Heresie though it maye be truely fathered vpon any man sooner or later Full wisely D. Allens rule is this Any opinion that maye be truely fathered vpon any man that was long after the trueth was firste preached by the Apostles if it be vpon a poynt of Faith and contentiously maynteined it is an Heresie that is to say contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles And you can by no exception by no reason disproue it Now your rule is this Any opinion that maye be truely fathered vpon any man long after the Apostles if it be vpon a poynt of Faith c and contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles it is an Heresie that is to say contrarie c. Are not you then a proper rule giuer Any opinion that is contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles is contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles No doubt but D. Allen should do wisely to correct his rule which is not his but the Fathers rule by suche learned aduise 5. Contradicted Motiue 20. Article 11. Another rule of D. Allens is according to my next Demaūd (a) Pur. 412. Whosoeuer was wondred at and withstand and in his first arising and preaching by such as were in the vnitie of the Church as Aerius by S. Epiphanius S. Augustine c. and now Luther and Caluine by the Romanes c. he was according to the matter an Heretike or a Schismatike if he were obstinate I aske them therefore who so withstoode vs at any time or what heresie was not so withstood according to Gods promise to his Church Vpon thy walles Esa 62. O Hierusalem I haue set watchmen all day and al night euen for euer non tacebunt they shal not be scilent Whervpon S. Augustine saith confidently by the warrant also of the Parable Aug. ep 119 cap. 19. Mat. 13. Ecclesia dei inter multā paleam c. The Church of God beset with much chaffe and with much cockle although she tolerate many things not béeing able to redresse them yet such things as be agaynst faith or good life she neither alloweth nor is scilent nor practiseth And Fulke him selfe saith as much The Church of Christ in suche places as she is ioyne herevnto ca. 2. Ar. 92. where he confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeres suffereth no man damnably abusing her Religion without open reprehension Now against this and so against him selfe to what hath he to say One while he bringeth causes why and how our Religion entred into the true Church with scilence 1 For because it came not in sodenly Ar. 43.39.35 Pur. 256. but entred by small degrees at the first and therefore was lesse espied by the true Pastors where he addeth especially being earnestly occupied against great Heresies and open aduersaries that sought to beate downe the chiefe foundations of Christian faith as the Valentinians Marcionistes Manichees Arrians Pur. 419. Sabellians and such like monsters 2 Another meane or cause was this that in those auncient times if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shew of pietie or charitie they would draw it into vse with such correction as they thought was sufficient And this was a great corruption Where he addeth So they tooke of them c. eight or nyne things of ours he there nameth his words are here cap. 3. pag. 9. Amongst the which prayer for the dead is one 3. the causes and maner of the entring wherof he rendreth in like sort more at large cap. eodem pag. 14. to 20. as because it had a pretence of Charitie Ar. 39. Pur. 386.78 it deceiued simple men the sooner And the ignorant peoples error first winked at because it had a shew of pietie was allowed at length of Augustine and others who folowed the common errors of their time To omit that D. Allen foresaw and preuented these goodly causes Pur. 384. c. I say it is a fond part to tel why and how a thing was done which thing was neuer done For so the Scripture before alleaged promiseth and S. Augustine affirmeth that there should not be nor was any such silence in the true Pastors In so much that you can not name any confessed
then to the Arrians to be an Homousian If you Sacramentaries or Caluinistes delight not in the name of Protestants the Lutherans do and stand as earnestly against you vppon their senioritie for that name as we do stand agaynst you both vpon our senioritie for the name of Christians of Catholikes But your confessing of the name on the one side and yet saying on the other side that your true Christians delight not in it Ar. 65. Infra ca. 11. cont 50. Ar. 65. as also that they desire to be called Christians without choosing any other name I reserue to the place of your cōtradictions But of vs you say as much They can not be content with the name of Christians but choose vnto them selues new names after the calling of their Sect-masters as Franciscanes Dominicanes Benedictins Gilbertins Augustinians Scotistes Thomistes Albertistes c. This is answered in my Demaunds Motiues as all the rest also in effect Yet I say againe to it A Sect importeth a diuision Now what diuision is betwene those Catholikes and vs the other Catholiks that haue none of those names Be we not all of one faith and of one communion So easily is your accusation wyped away and not onely from vs I say who haue none of those names but also from our brethren who haue them They be not of that sort as the name of Christians and therefore by Logike you know not priuatiuely opposite therevnto But suche are these Arrians Pelagians Lutherans Caluinistes Protestantes Because being before of Christ of his vnitie of his communion all called Christians they for some matter either of faith or other diuiding themselues frō the same follow the communion or felowship of Arius of Pelagius of Luther of Caluin of those Protesters Why then are those our brethren so named if S. Augustine S. Benet S. Frauncis S. Dominike if S. Thomas and Scotus were not Sect-masters I answere the first sort because they professe to liue after the rules of those principall Abbots the other sort because they hold certaine Scholasticall questions which either can not be matters of faith or els as yet be not because they be not yet defined by the Church according to the opinions of those principall Schole Doctors 9. Conuersion of Heathen Nations Motiue 25. Article 1. My nienth Demaund doth note who are after the Apostles the Conuerters of all Nations from Paganisme whom the Scripture calleth the witnesses of Christ to the extremes of the earth Act. 1. to wit we and not the Protestants According to Tertullians most singular obseruation speaking of Heretikes and saying As touching the ministerie of the word Tertul. de Praesc what should I speake considering that this is their endeuour non Ethnicos conuertendi sed nostros euertendi Not to conuert the Heathen but to subuert our people This glory they do more seeke after Si stantibus ruinam non si iacentibus eleuationem operentur To work ruine to such as are standing and not raysing to such as are lying And so Fulke may glory I do not denie as he doth also where he saith Ar. 33. Ar. 95. The Land of Bohemia was conuerted by Iohn Hus and Hieromyn of Prage Againe in another place And at this day the most part of Europe is conuerted from Idolatry Heresie and Antichristianitie such he counteth the Catholike faith vnto the same true faith that we mainteine as in England Scotland Ireland Fraunce Germanie Denmark Suetia Bohemia Polonia by publike authoritie in Spaine and Italie a great number vnder persecution and tyrannie That is your glory in déede that you haue subuerted many in many Christian nations We can not so glory nor you can not shew that we haue done the like in any Nation although you say with a brasen face Ar. 3. It is certayne that the Popish Church hath peruerted and corrupted al parts of the Latine or Westerne Church with Idolatry and false religion But that you haue conuerted any Nation from Paganisme you do not nor you can not boast But the truth is although you say that we haue not cōuerted the Nations to Christes faith Pur. 460. but peruerted all nations from the faith of Christ that our Church that is to say the Cōmunion of S. Peters Sée Apostolike or the church beginning visibly at Hierusalem and visibly growing on to this day is she that conuerteth al Pagane Nations to be Christians not only at this present so many nations of both the Indies and in Afrike item so many others that this last thousand yeres haue bene conuerted thrée wherof you name Liuonia Prussia Lithuania Ar. 3.85 with this lying censure that we conuerted them by force of armes rather then by preaching and teaching but also all them that were conuerted either in the 500. yeres afore that or also in the Apostles time it selfe Against this cleare trueth what mist haue you to cast Forsooth not we but certaine Heretikes Schismatikes conuerted some nations to the profession of Christes name Ar. 2.3 though to false religion Do you graunt that it was to false religion yet bring that for an instance It is an euident argument that you had no instance in the nations that we cōfesse to haue bene conuerted to the true faith of Christ Was not this scope inough for you reason inough for vs when we say as in my Demaund you may sée that it was our Church by which all Nations were conuerted or corrected to the true faith of Christ And yet also for your said instancies where you quote your Authors they shall be answered In the meane time I quote to you Eus li. 2. ca. 1. reporting the conuersion of Ethiopia to haue bene of the right stampe according to Psal 67. and Act. 8. which two places he there doth cite Ar. 2.3 because you to shew that the true Church of Christ did not conuert all do say For in Aethiopia there are yet people conuerted by the False Apostles whiche taught circumcision obseruation of the Law in which heresie they continue vnto this day Who should tell that better then the Ethiopians themselues whom we sée to haue their house at Rome and to be Catholikes And your selfe do saye in another place Pur. 357. that their Liturgie doth sauour playnly the vsage of the Greke Church Their Emperour did his obediēce to Paulus III and also an Ethiopian Abbot which Abbot in his Epistle dedicatorie before the rites of their Baptisme Liturgie doth expresly inueigh against them that did falsly report of them as not Catholikes and obedient subiects to the Sée Apostolike much reioysing therein and desiering that they might be so taken Howbeit I denie not but there might be some corruption though not of heresie peraduenture but for lacke of frée conuersing béeing intercluded by the Turkes and Saracenes and often oppressed by Tyrants and Infidels of their owne with the Romane Church In qua semper ab ijs qui sunt
heresies not preached against winked at because it had a shew of pietie and charitie and at length allowed of Augustine and others who followed the common errors of their time Specially when a Generall defection and departing from the faith was foreshewed what maruell were it if none coulde preach against it as it first entred Ar. 92.36.37 Contra The Churche of Christ in such places as she is suffreth no man damnably abusing her Religion without open reprehension Ar. 11. 10 The true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions contrarie to the word of God as her duetie was and fought against them and obteined the victorie and triumphed ouer them Pur. 419. Ar. 35.36 Contra In those auncient times they of the true Catholike Church did not alwayes weigh what was most agreable to the worde of God but if Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shewe of pietie or charitie they would drawe it into vse So they tooke into the Church of Christ many abuses and corruptions vntill at the length An. 607. the religion of the Papistes preuayled And c since that time that diuelish heresie hath alwayes increased in error vntill the yere 1414. 11 That blasphemous heresie of Purgatorie To the Reader Pu. 26.166.184.177.269.362.363.419.186 which is moste blasphemous against Christ against the bloud of Christ against his merites and satisfaction for our sinnes and against Gods vnspeakable mercies and occasion of most licentious wickednes in all thē that beleue it nothing conuenient for the disciples members of Christ No suffrages were made for the dead by the Apostles or their lawfull successors Contra here cap. 3. he confesseth that the Fathers held it and yet notwithstanding that they were members of the true Church ca. 2. and held the foundation Iesus Christ cap. 5. and all the substance of true doctrine z Pur. 393.405 And also that they did inuocate Saintes denying in other y Supr pa. 139.140 places that such be true Christians The like q Su. p. 141. of Fasting 12 x Pur. 51.26.166.177.184 The opinion of Purgatorie satisfaction of sinnes after this life is the very doctrine of licentiousnesse to mainteine wicked men in their presumptuousnes For what hast will they make to amendment newnes of life when they haue hope of release after their death Contra As S. Augustine saith Pur. 448. it is but for smal faultes or as M. Allen saith for great faultes that by penaunce are made small And is God suche a mercifull father to punishe small faultes so extremely in his children whom he pardoneth of all their great and haynous sinnes O blasphemous helhoundes Sée how vehement he is in contradicting him selfe to iustifie that saying of D. Allens I am well assured there dare no man Pur. 150. though he were destitute of Gods grace yet not for shame of him selfe affirme that the doctrine of Purgatorie is hurtfull to vertuous life Considering that people with vs are told that to escape hell it selfe they must do much more then the Protestants require and more againe to escape Purgatorie according to S. Augustines threatning here cap. 9. pag. 212. 13 How long soeuer the true Church were hidden Ar. 73. Supra ca. 1. whether it were a 1000. yeres or 2000. yeres this is certayne that out of this Church none could be saued Contra here ca. 5. he counteth it ynough if the faith of their saluation were in the onely foundation Iesus Christ and that in such a sense as agréeth to men in déede out of the Church Ar. 61 74. Pur. 238. 14 They which hold the foundation that is Christ to wit the Article of Iustification by the onely mercie of God and of the onely Sonne of God are doubtlesse members of the true Church of Christ Contra here cap. 10. pag. where he saieth that the Anabaptistes are abominable heretikes and that they are not Protestants who yet do hold that article iump as the Protestants do Ar. 36.38 Ar. 71.78.79.80 15 A generall departing from the faith was foreshewed and it was fulfilled An. 607. Contra The Church was neuer lost neither when the departing was Generall but hidden in the wildernesse that is from the eyes of the world She is to this day preserued and shal be to the worldes end Christ hath neuer wanted his Spouse in earth he hath neuer ben a head without a body Ar. 2.96.26.27 16 The Primitiue Church of the Apostles hath continued vnto this day by succession not of persons and places but of doctrine faith and trueth These very wordes conteine a manifest contradiction For how can a Church or doctrine faith and truth cōtinue but in persons and places in so much that he saith also We doubt not but God hath alway stirred vp some faithful teachers that haue instructed his Church in the necessarie pointes of Christian doctrine Ar. 15.79 17 The true Church of Christ hath alwayes stoode stedfast inseperable from Christ her head though the blind worlde when they see her will not acknowledge her to be his Spouse but persecute her as if she were an adulteresse Contra in the same place The true Church vnder the Emperours Constantinus Constans and Valens was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius And in another place Ar. 79. The visible Church may become an adultresse and be deuorced from Christ And so is that faithfull Church of Rome become an harlot Ar. 79. 18 The true Church consisting of Gods elect and the liuely members of the body of Christ shal neuer commit such adultery c. But the visible Church may separate her selfe from Christ As though there were another Church besides the visible Church and so two Churches Ar. 65. Contra Wheresoeuer the Catholike Church be in partes it is one body of Christ And therfore in dede there is neuer no Church but the visible Church the other is but an imagination of the Protestants to delude the world withall As though Luther and the rest that appeared with him had afore their appearing bene secrete Protestants whereas in deede they were open Papistes 19 Anno 607. the Church fled into the wildernes that is Ar. 16.27.79.36 out of the sight and knowledge of the world there to remaine a long season where all this while God hath preserued her vntill suche time as he thought good now in our daies to bring her out of her secrete place in the wildernes into the open sight of the world againe Contra Ar. 77. Diuers times it was bold to chalenge preaching and ministring of the Sacraments yea and so boldly that it cost many of the chalengers their liues As Berengarius Bruno Marsilius de Padua Ioannes de Gaudano Ioannes Wickleue Walden Ioannes Hus Ieronymus de Praga c. Where besides his manifest contradiction I note two things against him one that it cost not all these yea very few of these
time was no such time but that he and al his felowes though they held the foundation of Christ yet might did erre in some opinions contrary to the truth of Gods word And agayne Cyprian and al the Bishops of Aphrica were notwithstanding their error of Heretiks baptisme to be no baptisme in the vnity of the church In all these places he alludeth although he neuer expresse it to S. Pauls saying 1. Cor. 3. that The foundation is Iesus Christ and if any man buyld vpon this foundation he shal be saued yea also though his buylding or worke be wood or straw such to witte as will wast away in the day of fire Let vs conferre with it this saying Matt. 7. He buildeth vpon the Rocke which heareth or beléeueth my sayings Aug. in Ps 103. cor 3. de fide op ca. 16. Gala. 5. and worketh them S. Augustine expoundeth it most aptly in very many places when he saith that Christ to be in the foundation is that he haue the principall place in our heart and nothing at all be preferred before him Which is done if he dwel in our hearts by a working faith for That fayth which by loue worketh being layde in the foundation suffereth none to perish So that if we be either out of faith or out of charitie then be we without this sauing foundation As are all they that eyther beléeue any one heresie or breake any one commaundement by any mortall sinne For so saith S. Paule expresly of Heresies with all other works of the flesh Gala. 5. That they which do such thinges shall not inherite the kingdome of God For which purpose agayne thrée places are diligently to be conferred in all which the first part of the sentence he chaungeth not at all but the other part he varieth thrée wayes 1. Cor. 7. Gala. 5. Gala. 6. geuing vs playnly thereby his meaning In Christ Iesus saith he neither circumcision nor vncircumcision is ought or can do ought but a new man but fayth working by charitie but keeping of Gods commaundementes This is the truth But nowe commeth Fulke with an other exposition which first requireth not workes of charitie or obseruation of the cōmaundements nor secondly also so much as fidem integram inuiolatamque a sound and vncorrupted faith but onely to holde this one article of faith to beleeue in the onely Sonne of God and in the onely mercy of God And if any man erre about other articles and that also so obstinately that he condemneth his aduersaries for heretikes yet he holdeth the foundation and by vertue of it shall be saued notwithstanding and so did S. Augustine and those other Fathers and therefore they were of the true Church and are saued Howe much more warely dealt your maister Peter Martyr vpon this place to the Corinthians who séeing the absurdities hereof Pet. Mar in 1. Cor. thought better to say that the Fathers in the agonie of their death acknowledged their errors Et non raro fit c. It happeneth often saith he that such as in their whole life time had not the gift to thinke a right of Religion haue it often geuen them at the last houre to vnderstand in the agonie of death that the superstitions and abuses to which afore they had yealded them selues were both vaine and also hurtfull Which thing I would not doubt to haue happened to Bernard Frauncise Dominike and many of the auncient Fathers because liuing in the foundation that is in Christ although they builded many abuses and very many superstitions yet they might be saued howbeit through fire what time at the last houre they wrestled against death and the terrors of their sinnes and in that wrastling acknowledged the vanitie of their fansies Thus you sée how they are troubled to saue them whom no lesse then vs they should but dare not to condemne and while they labour so to do they do it specially Fulke by such meanes as no lesse serueth to saue vs. For who knoweth not that we beléeue in the onely Sonne of God and in the onely mercy of God and that therefore we looke not to be saued by our owne works that is to say which we did without him as when we were in Paganisme or in Iudaisme or in Caluinisme and any other heresie or finally in any mortall sinne but onely by his workes that is by his Sacraments that of his great mercy he hath instituted for vs the good déeds that of his great mercy he hath created in vs in Christ Iesus euen as S. Paule saith Tit. 3. Not for any works of righteousnes that we did before Baptism quae fecimus nos but for his mercy he hath saued vs by Baptisme per lanacrum generationis that thou maist sée his mercy and his sacrament stande well together Eph. 2. And againe for wee be his new creature created in Christ Iesus in good workes And therefore afore we were in Christ Iesus we had no works to saue vs but they are our workes only in Christ Iesus that saue vs. For so the same S. Paule teacheth vs as I said afore what it is that in Christ Iesus is of power to saue vs to wit our new creation in these good workes our faith working by charitie our kéeping of Gods commaundementes so that againe his mercy in Christ Iesus and his creature or good workes in Christ Iesus stand well together And euen thus did also those old fathers beléeue of the Sacraments of good workes Supra pag. whom he confesseth notwithstanding to haue beléeued in the onely Iesus Christ the onely mercy of God beléeuing likewise the communion of prayers betwixt all that are in Christ Iesus Infra pag. either quick or dead as him selfe likewise confessed of thē in the .3 Supra pag. Chap. And therfore séeing they notwithstanding that are confessed to haue beléeued in the onely sonne the only mercy of God we no lesse for all that our beliefe must be likewise confessed to beléeue the same onely foundation and so consequently to haue likewise the true Churche and saluation be the impudent audacitie of Fulke neuer so great to say that we build vpon no foundation at all and seeke by all meanes to digge vp the onely true foundation of our faith Iesus Christ making him nothing better then a common person except his bare name Euen as his friendes and masters be altogether as lustie with the Fathers them selues Flaccus Illyric in Claue Scripturae parte i. in praef one of them saying of S. Hierome by name that he was Et morbi humani medici Christi ignarus ignorant both of mans disease and of Christ the Phisitian Therefore let him wrangle as much as he will this is the plaine case euery indifferent man doth sée all like both in vs and in the Fathers about his supposed foundation if they helde it we hold it if we holde it not Infra
and by the noblenes of the persons it is notoriously knowen And euen no better stuffe in Caluines Institutions find they that take the like paynes to examine them and are of iudgement to discerne although you trust so much therein and say I would to God that al Papists in England would reade that booke and pray vnfainedly Pur. 45â— that God would open their eyes that they may see the truth if it be taught therein No syr not so that is not the way There is no booke of Heresie Iudaisme nor Mahometisme but it would ouerthrowe or shake the common sort and therfore to reade them and pray that is not the way to truth no more then to swalow poyson and pray is the way to get or kepe health of the body You should rather haue exhorted men that can to reade the auncient Fathers works or such partes of their works as are Institutions or summes of our faith as S. Augustines Enchiridion ad Laurentium also De heresibus ad quoduultdeum the bookes De fide ad Petrum and De Ecclesiasticis dogmatibus Vincensis Lirinensis his generall rules as it were preseruations against all heresies with diuerse other or because we speake of bookes written at this time specially and aboue all others the Councell of Trent where it intreateth of doctrine But your zeale is to Caluine his doctrine as here you haue shewed it is not to the Fathers and their doctrine no nor to the doctrine of the whole Churche whiche also your selfe confesse to be such For Caluine erreth not you say D. Allen slaundereth and belyeth him but the Fathers and the whole Church haue erred Well touching Caluin Melancthon and such others you shall I trust in time conuenient heare D. Allen answere to you for him selfe My purpose here is onely by this ensample of your zeale towardes your Fathers to shewe a litle of my zeale for our Catholike Fathers though not with such bigge wordes and lowde exclamations against you as you haue done against D. Allen yet with suche truth and reason as euen your selfe also if God of his mercy wil take from you that stoute heart may well confesse that you are fully satisfied ¶ The first parte Concerning the errors that he layde ca. 3. par 2. both to the Fathers and to vs. And because I diuide this matter into thrée partes to witte the errors that you lay both to them and to vs the errors that you lay to them and not to vs and finally the errors that you lay to vs or to the Church of later times and not to them As concerning the first sorte which I collected in the third Chapter I answere playnly and briefly at once that they are no errors But you will proue it let vs sée how j. Of the Crosse and Images They tooke the signe of the Crosse from the Valentinians Pur. 419.416 you say And a litle before in the same Paragraph I could proue out of Irenaeus and Epiphanius that the first that brought in estimation the figure of the Crosse and Images were the Valentinians and Carpocratians And a litle after Carpocrates as Irenaeus doth testifie was a great admirer of Philosophie in so much that with the Images which he made of Christ he ioyned the Images of Pythagoras Plato and Aristotle Elsewhere you quote also the places saying to vs Ar. 22. Of the Valentinians you learned to haue in price the signe of the Crosse and to abuse the places of Scripture for the same superstitious vse as God forbid that I should reioyce but in the Crosse of Christ c. Irenaeus li. 1. ca. 1. Gal. 6. Epiphan li. 1. Tom. 2. heraes 31. And there afore To make the Images of Christ and the Apostles and to cense them you learned of the heretikes called Gnostici and Capocratitae Epiphan li. 1. Tom. 2. in the Preface and li. 1. Tom. 2. haer 27. And Irenaeus li. 1. cap. 23. I answere that the Reader may wonder at your audacitie that those authors there speake not a worde of the figure nor signe nor vse of the Crosse they tell how those heretikes in their fables inuented .30 Gods which they called Aeones and in them two or thrée Christes and one of the Christes they called amongst other names stauros or Crux And to that Christ they racked that saying of Sainct Paule with others as also other Scriptures they wrested to their other Aeones euen so properly as you alleage this same Crosse of theirs against our Crossing as well might those Christes be alleaged against our Christ And as properly agayne doe you against our Images alleage the Images of those heretikes Epiph. li. â—… Tom. 2. in praef Haer. 21. Simonianorum Iren. li. 1. câ—… 1. in fine Simon Magus of whom those Gnostici did beginne gaue to his Disciples his owne Image In specie Iouis In forme of Iupiter and also the Image of hys strumpet Helena in figura Mineruae in forme of Minerua Et adorant has hi qui ab ipso decepti sunt and these Images doe they adore As if the Lutheranes should haue and adore the Images of Luther and of Katherine his woman and a Catholike note them for it that were you know a sore argument for vs to answere Likewise the Carpocratians who also were Gnostici had the Images of Iesus Epiph. li. 1. To. 2. in pr. Haer. 27. Iren. lib. 1. cap. 24. and withall of certayne Philosophers Cum quibus Philosophis etiam alias Imagines Iesu collocant c. With which Philosophers they set vp those Images of Iesus and then adore them and celebrate the mysteries of the Paganes For hauing set vp these Images they do afterward keepe the rites of the Paganes And what be the rites of the Paganes other then sacrifice and so forth Which Epiphanius addeth vpon those words of Irenée Et reliquam obseruationem circa eas similiter vt Gentes faciunt They set them together with the Images of the Philosophers of the world and kepe about them the other rites like as the Paganes do to their Idols of whom we reade in the times of persecution that the worship which they would haue the Martyrs to giue to their Idols was partly sacrifice partly Incense which whosoeuer did were called Sacrificati and Thurificati And so this maner of those heretikes maketh euen as much agaynst our Images and agaynst the worship that we giue to God in the place where they are as the Samaritanes example maketh against the worshipping of our Lord because with him they worshipped other Gods 4. Reg. 17. as it is written They both worshipped our Lord and also their owne goddes withall Or rather maketh lesse against our doing because we agrée not with those heretikes in neither side neither making Gods of the Philosophers Images nor yet of Iesus his Images but onely of Iesus himselfe who is God in déede aboue all and of all to be blessed for euermore Ar. 22.
doctrine against your receiued errors were accounted of the world so he tearmeth them whom he him selfe confesseth to haue bene the true Church for heretikes But you muste proue that their opinions are contrarie to the worde of God or else all your labour is in vayne Supra pag. 10. And for example more store the Reader may sée here in the third Chapter I will not dissemble saith he Aërius taught that prayer for the dead was vnprofitable as witnesseth both Epiphanius and Augustinus which they account for an error But neither of them both reproueth it by the Scripture Pur. 416. And the same againe in another place Nowe at the length commeth the author of this heresie by the testimonie of Epiphanius and Augustine But neither of them confuteth it by the Scriptures Pur. 426. And in an other place thus boldly For our parte it is sufficient that we knowe God in his holy word to be the first founder of our doctrine and therfore that they lye blasphemously which would make any heretike the author of it And therevpon he concludeth forsooth with great honestie saying Wherfore Ar. 44. if Aërius had not bene an Arrian this opinion could not haue made him an heretike Where to passe that blasphemie only this I say August ad quoduu in praef in epilogo that he séemeth not to know the purpose of S. Augustine in that booke De haeresibus ad quoduultdeum whiche he saith was likewise the purpose of Epiphanius not to coÌ„fute but only to report the heresies that had bene before his time and that not without great profite to the Reader Cum scire sufficiat c. because it is inough onely to know that the Catholike Churches iudgement is against these and that no man must receiue into his beliefe any one of these And agayne Multum adiuuat cor fidele c. It greatly helpeth the faithfull heart onely to know what must not be beleeued although he bee not able to confute it by disputing Loe then you faithfull heartes the case is so cleare Note â— seeke thâ— this conâ— of Fulkeâ— that the very aduersarie confesseth both that the same was the true Catholike Churche and also that it iudged Aerius to be an heretike helpe your selues therefore and make your profite of this confession assuring your selues vpon the Catholike Doctors lesson that séeing the Church was against Aerius the scripture could not be with him because one Spirit of truth speaketh both in the Church and in the Scripture As for Fulke and all that he here saith you sée it is no other then if Aerius Iouinianus or Vigilantius had said vnto you Aske my fellow whether I be a théefe Naught else it is that he there againe concludeth for those thrée heresiarkes saying Thus Ar 4â— you are not able to name any which preached any article of our doctrine but the same was consonant to the Scripture Of the same sort also in an other place Therefore M. Allen or Pur. 3â— S. Augustine rather if you will teach your Schollers to keepe vs at the baye as heretikes you must not teach them to bark and baule nothing but the Church the Church like tinkers curres O vvorâ— stimatioâ— he hath Church but you must instruct them to open cunningly out of the Scriptures how our doctrine is contrarie to the truth and yours agreeable to the same Againe like one that would appoint his enemie not to inuade him with a gunne because he knoweth not how to saue him selfe from the shotte of it but to take some other weapon that of his making in an other place he saith And especially in this controuersie Pur. 12 where either partie chargeth other with heresie howbeit I trow his partie chargeth not so S. Epiphanius S. Augustine though they so charge his Patriarke Aerius it had bene conuenient that the right definition or description of an heretike had bene first set downe that men might thereby haue learned who is iustly to be burdened with that crime For an heretike is he that in the Churche obstinately maintaineth an opinion that is contrarie to the doctrine of God conteined in the holy Scriptures which if any of vs can be proued to doe then let vs not be spared An herâ— a man in Church 〈◊〉 Fulk Fâ— a nobis 〈◊〉 Iohn Infra but condemned for Heretikes In déede if an Heretike be a man in the Churche you are cockesure and not only you and Aerius but Arrius Pelagius all other heretikes that euer were we rather with S. Augustine S. Epiphanius and such others in daunger To this place it belongeth that againe he sayeth Pur. 402. M. Allen giueth a speciall note that wee name not Iouinian or Vigilantius the playne auouchers of our opinions but rather labour to writh with plaine iniurie to the Author some sentence out of Augustine or Ambrose or some other that opened them selues to the world to beléeue the contrarie And thinketh we are ashamed of the other In deede if we depended vpon any mans authoritie or that any man or men were the Authors of our fayth wee should bee iniurious vnto them if we dyd not acknowledge our founders But seeing God him selfe is the Father of that doctrine which we haue receyued by his holy worde we are not ashamed of Vigilantius nor Berengarius when they agree therewith Onely the Canonicall Scriptures are the rule by which we iudge of all men and their writinges of all doctrine and the teachers thereof Pur. 409. Agayne And therefore it is but vayne bragging that you promyse to seeke out other Fathers of our perswasion then the Apostles of Christ by whose holy writinges we neuer refuse to be iudged For the Scripture is the onely high way to the truth with the guidance of Gods spirite And agayne You spend many wordes in vayne Pur. 412. to proâ—e that the first author of an opinion beyng found the opinion is found to be an heresie It shall bee graunted with all fauour but so that no man shall be counted the first author of an opinion that is able to proue his opinion out of the word of God And withall that whosoeuer is not able to proue by the word of God any opinion that he holdeth obstinately though he haue many authors before him yet he is neuerthelesse an Though iâ— be S. Augustine him selfe though he hold the foundation here cap. v. heretike And so much of their first authors founde out by vs as Aerius Iouinianus Vigilantius and such other old heresiarches condemned he confesseth by the true Church of Christ but contrarie he saith to the Scriptures of Christ Now on the other side being vrged by D. Allen to finde in like maner our first Authors or els it will follow the Apostles to be our authors Pur. 391. heare what he saieth therevnto Must we finde out the authors of your heresies nay iustifie them your selues by the word
of God if you can You shall not compell vs to tell you where when or how your heresie came in It chaufeth him that we shew so plaine an euidence against his side he can not shew the like against vs and therefore he is faine to flie againe to his cold exception of onely Scripture as though to iustifie our doctrine by the Apostles and that so sensibly were not ynough But most ridiculous of all it is to sée him come in with this exception where D. Allen alleaged TertulliaÌ„ for this rule Pur. 4 Ar. 42 That doctrine saith Fulke which is first agreable to Tertullians rule is vndoubtedly true and that which is later is false But how shall the first doctrine be knowen but by the word of God wherein all the doctrine of God is taught Tert. 〈…〉 praesc Tertullian there hath an other rule against such heresies as presumed Inserere se aetati Apostolicae To say that their founders liued in the Apostles time But this our rule he giueth against all such as rise any time after as Aerius Luther Caluin c. bidding vs then to coÌ„sider what was taught beléeued immediatly before they arose for the vndoubtedly is the truth and their later doctrine is falshood Now then how ridiculous is it for Fulke to run from Tertullians meaning yet to pretend that he agréeth to Tertullians Rule The same rule with an amplification also Antiq … Dem. in the same meaning doth likewise VinceÌ„tius LirineÌ„sis geue to wit If any Noueltie arise at any time yea preuaile so much afterward in processe of time as to make an vniuersall corruption so that almost no countrey of Christendome be frée froÌ„ it as this marchant boasteth at this day of the most of Europe EnglaÌ„d Scotland Ireland Ar. 3. Infra Dem. 〈…〉 FrauÌ„ce Germany Denmark Suetia Bohemia Polonia a great number also in Spaine Italy that then we looke vnto Antiquitie that is to the time before such noueltie preuailed before it arose as what was taught beléeued immediatly before Luther beganne these innouations And therefore alike ridiculous it is that he saieth We refuse not the rule of Vincentius Lirinensis Pur. 3â—… concerning Antiquitie so you can proue that it hath God to be the Author the Prophetes and Apostles As for witnesses vnder this antiquitie we passe not for them Why man The rule that you receaue proueth it The Apostles I say to be the Authors of our solemne prayer for the dead in the holy Masse and of any other such article because it hath such antiquitie as I haue now said and as Vincentius meant And so much vpoÌ„ the Rule of finding out the first authors of any doctrine and the same therefore to be hereticall or not finding them and the same therefore to be Apostolicall Whither is to be referred that Rule also of D. Allens that such as commonly by Christian people be named Heretikes Names dem 7.8 alwayes proue in the ende to be heretikes in deede notwithstanding their craking of Gods word Wherevnto Fulkes exception is the selfe same againe saying Ar. 65. The true Christians at this day being of the Papistes which after a sort are named Christians called heretikes and in reproche Protestantes and Caluinistes in that their faith agreeth with the word of God proue themselues in deede to be true Christians and no heretikes ij Against the Apostles Traditions TraditioÌ„s Dem. 29. Pur. 362. Now let vs heare how he maketh his saide exception also against the Traditions of the Apostles Thus he speaketh M. Allen referreth the institution of Prayer and Sacrifice for the dead to the tradition of the Apostles Of whom will he be afeard to lye when he fathereth such a blasphemie vpon the Apostles Soft man be good to D. Allen for their sakes that followe For you your selfe goe forward in the same place and say But who is witnesse that this is the tradition of the Apostles Tertullian Cyprian Augustine Ieronym and a great many more This you could not and therfore doe not deny but come in with your stale exception saying But if it be lawfull for me once to pose the Papistes I would learne why the Lorde woulde not haue this doubtlesse institution plainely or at leastwise obscurely set forth by Mathew Marke Luke or Paule which all haue set forth the storie of the institution of the Sacrament If it were not meete at all to bee put in writyng why was it disclosed by Tertullian Cyprian Pur. 387. Augustine c Likewise in an other place If prayer for the deade was appoynted by the Apostles commaundement why is there neuer a worde thereof in their writinges If I were disposed to pose you this question woulde make you clawe your poll a hundred tymes before you coulde imagine any collourable aunswere for right aunswere you shall neuer be able to make In déede a doughtie question it is As though if a Christian can not answer euery why of the Infidel our Religion therfore is straight in hazard Ar. 48. It may trouble a wise maÌ„ to answer al the questions that a foole caÌ„ propound you say your self And yet neither you nor any other Infidell shall euer finde the learned to séeke It is for your religion to be to séeke of answers because it began but yesterday and is neither yet throughly shaped But the Catholike which is the only Christian Religion comming of God so many hundred yeres sithence continuing hath bene by our forefathers and the holy Ghost so sifted to our hands that the answere is alwayes ready afore the question be demaunded Briefly therfore S. Augustine one of our Masters and Doctors in Christ hath taught vs if we be posed about the Churches order in Baptisme to answere Au. dâ— op that Serie Traditionis scimus By the course of tradition we know what things are to be done therein although they be not expressed in the Scriptures and that for breuities sake So likewise being posed about the order of this other SacrameÌ„t to answere Quia multum erat c. Au. Eâ— ad Iaâ— cap. 6 Because it was much for the Apostle to signifie in his Epistle to the Corinthians the whole order of the action that the vniuersall Church through all the world obserued therefore hauing saide somewhat of the same Sacrament yea and as much as all the Euangelistes by and by he added And when I come 1. Cor I will prescribe the rest of the orders Vnde intelligi datur saith S. Augustine And thereby we may vnderstand that whatsoeuer is not varied in any varietie of vsages was of his prescribing This is our answere and you knew it partly before For you say I know the Papistes will flye to those words of the Apostle Pur. 3â— The rest I will set in order when I come And good reason S. Augustine teacheth vs so to do And what say you to him for it
worthinesse of these whom M. Allen so highly extolleth as I would not go about to diminish it if they were to be compared with vs so when they are As though vve opposed the doctors to the Apostles opposed against the manifest worde of God and the credite of the holy Apostles the ministers of the holy Ghost there is no cause that we shoulde be caried away with them That which he saith here as his Masters taught him of mortall men D. Allen knew aforehand and forewarned the Reader thereof where he said Melancton Pur. 384. as though he were no man that might erre himself saith the Doctors were men And againe to sée their absurditie in the same terme of mortall men Mortall men are compreheÌ„ded also the Apostles them selues and if they sometime séeme to separate them selues from it they meane then by the Apostles nothing but the Scriptures of the Apostles As Fulke in certaine places noted before and againe where he saith to D. Allen Ar. 59. You shal neuer bring vs to acknowledge that S. Paule is against vs in any article of our faith but we agree wholly with him Neuerthelesse I know what you meane and I will not be afrayde to vtter it For as much as immediatly after the Apostles time corruption entred into the Church you thinke that we dare not depend vpon any one mans iudgement and therein you are not deceiued for we must depend only vpon Gods word Euen so dealt the vnbeléeuers and the doubtfull and weake with the Apostles in their life time yea and with Christ him selfe and yet to winne such persons both the Apostles yea and Christ himself condescended to them accordingly If the Protestants would in like sort haue dealt with him them not to haue beléeued them in any thing without Scripture the faithfull I thinke for all that were not so straite laced but beléeued them vpon their own word not Christ onely but also his Apostles because of the spirite of truth that he sent to them and not to them onely but also to his Church after them for euer and therefore they will also no lesse at all times beléeue the said Church for the same spirite assuring them selues that the saide spirite agréeth still with him selfe whersoeuer and howsoeuer he speaketh be it in the Scriptures or be it in the Church and in the Church Primitiue or in the Church of later times and agayne in the Pastors of the Primitiue Church as the Apostles or in the Pastors of the Church afterwarde at any time in generall Councell or otherwise consenting together It is no maruayle after this generalitie to sée him now except against the Fathers in particular naming the times and the persons Ar. 60. as first the times where he saith The other writers of later yeres after Ireneus and Iustinus we are not afrayde to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for Inuocation of Saintes prayer for the dead Pur. â—87 and diuers Ceremonies And Although the custome of praying for the dead be an auncient error so that few of the later writers there are but they shew them selues to be infected therewith yet they had no ground out of the Scriptures to warrant their doing Pur. 262. Againe But of memories of the dead and prayers for the dead also we wil not striue but that they were vsed before the times of Cyprian Ambrose but without warrant of Gods word or authoritie of Scriptures but such as is pitifully wrested and drawen vnto them Againe Pur. 30. But it sufficeth you that your forefathers more then a thousand yeres ago called the place of sufferaÌ„ce Purgatory But I pray you what is it called in the Scripture either of the old Testament or the new Diuers errors be older then a 1000. yeres but age can neuer make falshood to be truth and therfore I weigh not your * It is pride to follovv the fathers and humilitie to coÌ„demn them proud brags worth a straw Againe And this was a great corruption of those ancient times that they did not alwayes weigh what was most agreable to the word of God but if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing Pur. 419. and the rest as aboue in the third Chapter And againe Supra pag. 9. Those of the auncient Fathers that agreed with you in any part of your assertion notwithstanding many excellent giftes that they had Pur. 436. dissented therein from manifest truth of the Scriptures And so by name likewise he saith of certayne as for example Damascene your doctor should first haue reproued that perswasion by Scripture Againe Pur. 412. Pur. 60. The supposall of S. Augustine is sette downe which because it is but the authoritie of a man it is not of sufficient weight to beare downe the testimonie of Gods word Againe Pur. 395. And euen the authoritie of Athanasius without the word of God is the authoritie of man We count not all his writings for Canonicall Scriptures but we iudge them by the Canonicall Scriptures And againe Pur. 255.256 Gregorie Nissene and Athanasius the Great There is no cause why we should beleue either of them both in an article of faith without the authoritie of the word of God The second part Beeing told that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning howe there likewise against all the Expositors he maketh the same exception of Only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture Now after all this froth of words let vs sée him come once to the poynt report him self the substance of our matter These be his owne words But the controuersie is not M. Allen fayth of the authoritie of the Scriptures in this matter Pur. 363 but of the true meaning of them which it is more like that they the Doctors being such men then we so farre inferior to them should know And what saith he therevnto I answere saith he and yet not one worde there to the question Else where he saith therevnto as I will report anone his words that also the meaning of the Scriptures must be searched out of the Scriptures onely Well syr but whencesoeuer and wheresoeuer it must be searched who is more like to finde it the Doctors or you and so neither that which you saye in other places answereth the question But in this place reade it who list your answere is quite cleane froÌ„ the questioÌ„ which was Whether be more like to know the true meaning of the Scriptures the Doctors or you And yet you pype vp the triumph there and say Thus haue these Heretikes no ground of their heresie but shift from the word of Scripture to Tradition from Tradition to the meaning of Scripture from the plaine meaning of Scripture to the opinions of men Yea and he counteth him selfe and his companies happie for such
blinde presumption to search the meaning of the Scriptures onely out of the Scriptures without the commentaries of the Doctors but not also I trow without the Commentaries of Caluine and such like companions thus he saith Pur. 407. And happy be those which not regarding the streames of waters that runne through the vaynes of earth but seeking to the onely fountayne of heauenly truth conteined in the holy Scriptures haue certaine comfort of saluation Pur. 285. And againe to the same purpose Surely as the Sunne is not obscured with the dust that a Cock casteth vp when he scrapeth on the dunghill The Doctors vvritings a dunghill no more is the Sonne of righteousnesse or the light of his holy worde darkened by all the myste of mens deuises which Allen or his complices can rayse out of the whole heape of superstition and error to deface the glory of his Church The worde of the Lord is a light vnto our steppes and therefore we will not walke in the darknes of mens traditions Our doctrine shall one day be tried before God and therefore we make no account how we be iudged by mans day 1. Cor. 4. So properly he vttereth his presumption in the words that the Apostle clene contrarie did speake in excéeding great feare It foloweth Your way is your owne way not the way of the Lord and because you take another way vnto saluation then the onely right waye Iesus Christ therfore by his owne sentence you are al theeues and murderers Hath any séene a man so drunken so blinded with pride Well then in the other place of searching the meaning out of the Scriptures them selues alone and neglecting the receaued Expositors what saieth he Whether the old Doctors be more like to vnderstand the Scriptures then the Protestāts Pur. 434. I haue answered before we will make no comparison with them Modestly spoken a man would thinke but what followeth Neither will we chalenge the likelihood to vs neither will we leaue it to them I mary hold your owne we pray you And why so For whether soeuer we doe we shall be neuer the more certaine of the trueth You say true for so much as concerneth your selues For in déede no certaintie of trueth but most certaine certaintie of error in your vnderstanding But in what so euer the Doctors doe agrée who so expoundeth the Scripture vnto that shall be euer most certaine of the truth which is ynough though not alwayes certaine of that same very places meaning as in the sixt Chapter I declared more at large Forth now a Gods name Supra cap. 6. par 2. But this will we set downe as a most certaine principle that no man can vnderstand the Scriptures but by the same Spirite by which they were written The meaning of some place one may attaine vnto which hath not that Spirit but to vnderstand them alwayes agréeably to the truth can not be without that same Spirit Forth againe What then shall we arrogate the Spirit as proper to vs and denye it to them God forbid They had their measure of Gods spirit and so haue we Hereof ariseth an obiection How then is the Spirit of God contrarie to it selfe because they and we agree not in all thinges He answereth God forbid Cyprian and Cornelius were both endued with Gods Spirit yet they agreed not both in one interpretation nor iudgement of the scripture Yea Syr Cyprian as he was of Cornelius his Spirit so was he likewise of Cornelius his iudgement implicitè as we tearme it though explicite he were of an other of an erronius iudgemēt and that according to his owne humane spirit and not according to Gods Spirit As at this day likewise and alwayes whensoeuer any Catholike man of ignoraunce erreth expressely yet notwithstanding in effect he is of the trueth with the other Catholikes which erre not because he quietly continueth in vnitie with them nor doth not obstinatly holde his owne error against them Now whether the case be so betwene the olde Doctors and you briefly and manifestly it is declared by this that neither you at this time will be refourmed by them nor they in their time would be refourmed by your forefathers Aerius Iouinianus and such like But now that you haue abrogated the vnderstanding of the Scriptures from Gods spirite both in the Doctors and in your selues say on and tell vs your aduise What then there remayneth but this seconde principle as certayne as the first That the Spirite of God hath a meaning in the Scriptures which is not to be sought out of the Scriptures in the opinions of deceiuable men but only in the Scriptures where is nothing but the spirite of truth No syr why suppose those men were the Apostles them selues or any other hauing the same spirite of trueth that the Apostles first had but of that ynough before foorth therefore Therefore that the spirite may declare his owne meaning Ar. 86. one place of Scripture must be expounded by an other for the hard places of Scripture must be opened by easie places all other ordinary meanes and helpes of wit learning knowledge of tongs diligence in hearing reading and praying are subordinate and seruing to this search and triall And is this way so sure and certayne I mary For who soeuer obserueth this search and triall most precisely shall come to the knowledge of the trueth most certaynly And may he not trust an other which hath so precisely obserued it as for example the Protestantes me thinkes as your selfe or M. Caluine c. but I crie you mercy you meant not them Well then may he not trust the olde Fathers therein A comfortable doctrine for the ignorant forsooth or did not they obserue it diligently No for who so euer is negligent in this search and tryall though he haue otherwise neuer so many and excellent graces and giftes may easily be deceiued yea you speake nowe a great worde euen when he thinketh he followeth the authoritie of the Scriptures Which search if the auncient Fathers had alwayes followed they should not so lightly haue passed ouer some thinges as to condemne the Protestantes in Aerius and Vigilantius c. and other thinges so slenderly haue mainteined as the doctrine of the Papistes Well then I sée all is in a mans owne diligence to trust no man nor men but to reade the Scriptures conferre the places and so gather the meaning by him selfe this is your most certen way I must therefore tell you a litle of our diligence therin that you may certifie vs whether it be ynough or no. and the rather because you exhort our master D. Allen and say to him Pur. 9. Trye the rule of the Protestantes and search the worde of God in the holy Scriptures and then vndoubtedly you shall finde the trueth and the Church also that is the pillar of trueth And againe Ar. 62. Who haue the trueth you must search in the
bene otherwise expounded then of their cause Pur. 176. Yea and more then that The worde of God doth neither expresly nor by any probable collection allow it but manifestly condemne it Pur. 185. Againe He could not with any semely colour establish purgatorie by the authoritie of the Scripture the onely testimonie of Gods word and will reueiled and confirmed by his holy Spirite The Machabées to be euen so confirmed as well as the other bookes he can neuer auoyde and in effect he graunteth as I shall note in the eleuenth Chapter amongst his contradictions Which is sufficient I trow to make at the least a séemely colour and a probable collection but in déede also a conclusion so necessary that he can neuer answere it but by shaking the authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures in derogating from their confirmation which yet him selfe doth attribute to the holy Spirite The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sence of the Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevpon a fourefold offer is made vnto him Now that we haue séene howe precise he is with vs to admit 1 no euidence that we alleage but Scripture onely both in all controuersies and also in the exposition of Scripture and againe 2 no Scripture which maketh so playnly with vs that he can not auoyde it but by denying it to be Canonical though he graūt it to haue the confirmation of the same true Church which moueth him as the holy Ghost to receiue the other Scriptures for Canonicall and againe 3 no Scripture that he confesseth to be Canonicall vnlesse it make so expresly so playnly so manifestly and so necessarily with vs that it can not by any suttletie be auoyded It were to be séene nowe on the other side what Scriptures he alleageth against vs whether he obserue him selfe the law that he so rigorously prescribeth to vs whether his Scriptures be so playne so manifest so euident that by no sutteltie they can be auoyded But that we shall sée in the next Chapter no nede of sutteltie I assure you to auoyde or delude them so friuolous are his allegations that with al facilitie and truth we shall answere them Here in the meane time in the ende of this Chapter I will onely lay forth his great promises aforehande and so come orderly to the matter And to omit if he should haue to do with all the old and newe heresies what manifest necessary confutations he would frame against them all and euery one out of the Scriptures alone hauing fréely afore them renounced al other probations according to his former sayings here that all truth and all articles of our beliefe are playnly taught in the Scripture and may be so proued by Scripture that there is nothing that we are bound to know nothing that we are bound to do but it is so set forth in the scriptures His great promises I will charge him no more but with his promise that he maketh of so confuting vs by playne Scriptures notwithstanding that all other euidences make for vs in such sort as he hath already confessed Thus he saith Pur. 187. And that which I haue to saye in confutation of your heresie shall be no worse then the very word of God it selfe which is better then the consent of all the world against it And againe Pur. 30. I am one of the least of Gods Ministers yet by his grace and authoritie of his holy word I shal be able to ouerthrow both this and all other Babilonicall bulwarks that are cast vp by Satan all his instruments for the defence of Popish heresie against the truth of God And neither the myst of mens inuētions which you cal the light of Apostolike tradition shall be able to darken the truth of the Gospell nor the errors of mortall men which you terme the force of Gods trueth shall beare downe the authoritie of Gods holy spirite Againe Pur. 12. We be able to shew manifest euidence that our aduersaries doctrine is cleane contrarie to the Scriptures of God Againe Ar. 3. We affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in stead of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are ready to proue by the word of God Againe I can proue by S. Paules writings Ar. 59. that in all articles of faith he taught the same which we beleeue And for triall of this because it would require a whole volume if I should proue euery perticular article wherein we dissent from you Papistes If you will name an article in the next Chapter your selfe shall name ynowe Yet if you will let it be this that Antichrist is not one certaine person and that the Churches fléeing into the wildernesse at his comming is to become inuisible to the world and that the beginning of that comming and fleing should be so soone after Christes passion the continuaunce so many ages the end so long before Christes second cōming wherein we agree not with S. Paule If I be not able to proue that we agree with him in the meaning thereof I will reuoke that article and agree with you therein Yea and also to proue his owne meaning and to disproue our meaning when we both alleage Scriptures he will séeke as he required of vs to nothing likewise but Scripture it selfe For the meaning of the worde he saith you should beleeue vs rather then the Papistes because our groundes and proues are better then theirs or els we require not to be beleeued better then they And there againe If you bring out a false sense we beleeue you not because we knowe it to be false and are able to proue by the word of God that it is contrarie to the meaning of the holy Ghost His triumphing in lying These are his worthie promises Of which he hath béen so liberall belike because he knewe that we dare not once appeare when Scriptures be alleaged by the Protestantes For such are his wordes Pur. 380. We can shewe no cause in the world you say why wee neede in any one point of controuersie depart from your Church Yet M. Allen this one cause shall serue for all because your Church is departed from the truth of Gods word and dare not abide the tryall thereof but will sitte like a proude dame in a Chaire Ar. 28. and controll the Scriptures Againe The Popish Church can by no reason chalenge Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets seeing she refuseth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writinges Againe The spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ Ar. 99.6 and is ruled thereby But the Romish Church will in no wise be ruled Onely by the voyce of Christ therefore she is not the Spouse of Christ Where by his foysting in of the worde Onely in the Minor
onely by Scriptures it would not follow thereof that no other argumentes are good ynough agaynst Iewes and Heretikes Now to the places alleaged in your other booke Other perswasion say you then suche as is grounded vpon the hearing of Gods worde Pur. 6. will neuer of Christians be counted for true beliefe so long as the tenth Chapter to the Romanes remayneth in the Canon of the Bible S. Paule there saith that hearing is presupposed to beléeuing and agayne to hearing is presupposed the worde of God But in what sorte the worde of God onely in writing doth he not there expresse that by the worde of God he meaneth preaching and preaching of suche as be Sent for that which he saith in one place Hearing is of Gods worde the same he saith afore How shall they heare without preachers 1. Thes 2. And what is more common in the New Testament then to call the preaching of Gods messengers the worde of God Euen as we to this day count it the worde of God which we heare of the Church of God either in her Councels or in her Doctors or any other way for so said God to them He that heareth you Luc. 10. heareth me And so S. Paul said to the Galathians If any man preach vnto you any other Gospell Gal. 1. then that which we haue preached vnto you and which you haue receiued holde him for accursed He speaketh of preaching and you alleage it as spoken of writing and of onely writing For thus you say to vs It vexeth you at the very harte Pur. 449.163 that we require the authoritie of the holy Scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a playne commaundement out of the word of God that if any man teache otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed No syr it rather reioyceth vs at the heart to see that this very same texte which you Falsification by chaunging corrupte is so playne a warrant to our brethren the Romaines accursing your masters Luther and Caluine for preaching an other Gospell Act. 28. then that which S. Paule preached to the saide Romaines and which they receyued of him the Scripture also testifying in other places Mat. 28. Act. 20. Rom. 15. that S. Paule and the other Apostles taught the Romaines and other Churches all things but not likewise that he or they wrote all whiche they taught neither againe that in suche things as they wrote the Churches alwayes should be required to bring forth their writing not otherwise to be credited although they alleaged their preaching or tradition by worde of mouth Whereby you perceiue that your conclusion foloweth not though it were true that you bring out of another place saying All good workes are taught by the Scriptures Pur. 410. it is S Paules 2. Tim. 3. the holy Scriptures are hable to make the man of God perfect and prepared to all good workes Suppose this to be S. Paules saying will you conclude therof that Timothie himselfe commending any thing for a good worke and saying that he had it of S. Paules owne mouth where he had all things should not be credited but néedes he must proue the same by Scripture We say all good works were taught the Church by the Apostles speaking and that saying doth not take away the Apostles writing Euen so if all good workes were taught in the Apostles writing that taketh not away suche argumentes as are made vpon their speaking As agayne if a certayne article be confessed to be taught in S. Paules Epistles or also if all Articles for so your words pretende here in the last Chapter will it not suffice for all that to proue any article out of some other booke of Scripture What a fonde reasoning is this that because one euidence proueth all therfore I can not haue any other euidence but that onely And this I say supposing that S. Paule had said as you make him All good workes are taught by the Scriptures c. But nowe I say further that he doth not say so but being now at the point of martyrdome he exhorteth his Disciple not to faynt but to fulfill his office to the ende as he had done the office I say of an Euangelist or Preacher 2. Tim. 4. saying that although he should nowe be depriued of his master yet he had still the holy Scriptures with him which be profitable saith he to teaching of truth 2. Tim. 3. to disprouing of falshood to correcting of vices to instructing in righteousnes that the man of God that is the Euangelist be perfite that is to say furnished to euery good worke meaning thereby those foresaid workes of an Euangelist as he also there had said 1. Tim. 3. he that desireth a Bishops office desireth a good worke Now it is one thing the Scripture to be profitable to this and another thing to be able or sufficient vnto it Agayne it is one thing the Scripture to be profitable to euery parte of preaching and another thing the Scripture to teach expresly all good workes in euery particular as Oblations for the dead for of that you speake and so forth Pur. 434. Moreouer you alleage these two places Search the Scriptures and Trie the spirites and these you alleage for Only Scripture to be required both in all questions and also in exposition of Scripture declaring thereby that you eyther know not or care not what nor how you alleage For where our Sauiour saith to the Iewes Iohn 5. Search the Scriptures for they it are which beare witnesse of me in the very same place he saith also vnto them And Iohn did beare witnesse to the trueth And againe My workes VVho euer alleaged Scripture more blindly or Miracles do beare witnesse of me that my Father sent me and that a greater witnesse then Iohn And againe Also my Father who sent me he hath giuen witnesse of me Likewise vpon your other place Trie the Spirites you say And the Spirites are not tried but by the Scriptures So you say 1. Iohn 4. Ar. 4. but your text doth not so say yea the Apostle S. Iohn saith there straight after By this we know a spirite or Prophet or teacher of trueth and a spirite of error Looke in the text man sée what is that whereof he saith by this whether it be by Onely Scripture or by some thing els Briefly Beleeue not euery spirit saith he but trie the spirites whether they be of God for then you may be bolde to beléeue them By this is knowen a spirite of God first in one particular which I passe ouer then in generall after this maner You my children you Romanes and other Catholikes be of God We Apostles and other Catholike teachers be of God And therefore He that knoweth God heareth vs and he that is not of God doth not heare vs. By this we know a spirite of trueth and a spirite of error or a false Prophet
the writinges of the Apostles haue taught vs according to the foresayd rules in so much that wee compt it not at all Catholike whatsoeuer shall appeare contrarie to the rules appointed You are a great reader of the Doctors I sée Whosoeuer made that Homilie he tooke those wordes out of that brief Instruction which in the first Tome of the Councels foloweth the Epistle of Pope Celestinus to the Bishops of Fraunce concerning the Semipelagians which Bishops I thinke to be the Authors of the same Instruction They take it and so they say out of the determinations of those Bishops of Rome in whose time Pelagius and Celestius beganne their Heresie that is P. Innocentius and P. Zozimus and out of certein Aphrican Councels approued by those Popes And after 8. or 9. such Canons or articles they make an end saying As for certaine more suttle points we are not bound to resolue vpon them We thinke all that sufficeth enough which the writinges of the See Apostolike haue taught vs according to the foresayde rules or Canons in no wise thinking it Catholike that shal appeare to be contrarie praefixis sententijs to the resolutions set here before Againe in Gen. Hom. 58. Thou seest into what great absurditie they fal qui diuinae Scripturae canonem sequi nolunt Which will not follow the Canon of Holy Scripture but permit all to their owne cogitations Hée answereth the Heretikes which said that our Lord tooke not true flesh Then saith Chrysostome he neither was crucified nor dyed nor was buried nor rose agayne Into such absurditie they fall because they will not followe the playne line of Scripture but their owne imaginations of putatiue flesh such as was in the Apparitions of the old Testament What is this for onely Scripture But if we be further vrged we will alleage that which he saith In Euang. Ioan. Hom. 58. He that vseth not the holy Scripture but climbeth another way id est non cōcessa via that is by a way not allowed is a Theefe O Christian spirite if you be vrged you will call S. Chrysostome a Theefe by his owne saying for vsing Tradition As though he vseth not Scripture which vseth Tradition or that Scripture doth not warrant Tradition as 2. The. 2. The thing which S. Chrysostome there speaketh of is this that Antichrist and those pseudochristes Iudas Galileus Theudas and such others also heretikes Schismatikes as Luther Caluine c. cannot shew any commission out of Scripture But Christ and his Apostles with the other Catholike Pastors that succede them come into their cure by good warrant of Scripture These therfore are true Pastors the other are théeues We may be as bould with Chrysostome as he sayd he would be with Paule himselfe in 2. ad Tim. Hom. 2. Plus aliquid dicam I will say somewhat more we must not be ruled by Paule himselfe if he speake any thing that is his owne and any thing that is humane but we must obey the Apostle when he carieth Christ speaking in him And when is that when he speaketh all only by Scripture Will you not obey him then when he sayth Ego enim accepi a domino For I receiued it of our Lordes mouth 1. Cor. 1◠Sée in what a proper sense you vse Chrysostoms words These are the foure places One other you haue elsewhere saying Chrysostome vpon Luke cap. 16. saith Ar. 12. Chrys cō 3. de Lazaro that ignorance of the Scriptures hath bred heresies and brought in corrupt life yea it hath turned all things vpsidedowne By which it appeareth by what means he would haue heresies kept away namely by knowledge of the Scriptures And who would not the same It is therfore our dayly studie and we sée our selues and shewe others thereby the abomination of your Heresies and how you would face them out with a carde of tenne But what maketh this for Onely Scripture to be of authoritie As S. Chrysostome so in like maner S. Leo is of your side you say against vs and against him selfe For where D. Allen alleaged this saying of his Pur. 387. Leo Ser. 2. de ieiunio Pentecost It is not to be doubted but whatsoeuer is in the Church by generall custome of deuotion kept and reteined it came out of the Apostles tradition and doctrine of the Holy Ghost You answere that the saying of Leo the great may be backed with the writing of Leo the great Epist 10. They fall into this folly which when they be hindred by some obscuritie to know the truth haue not recourse to the words of the Prophets nor to the writings of the Apostles nor to the authorities of the Gospell but to them selues In these wordes Leo as Great as you would haue him maketh the Scriptures and not Customes or Traditions the rule of trueth So you gather of those words as also in another place That the Church should ouerthrow heresies Ar. 14. by the word of God onely Leo the first Bishop of Rome in his Epist 10. ad Flauianum contra Eutichen playnely confesseth He doth not saye that all truthes are expressed in the Scriptures though that be whereof he there intreateth to witte the Incarnation of Christ Mary when a trueth is expressed in the Scriptures recourse muste be had to the Scriptures So he sayth but he sayth not to the Scriptures onely yea in the very same tenth Epistle he blameth Eutiches the Heretike much more for not hauing recourse neither so muche as to our common Creede whiche is not Scripture you wotte well but a Tradition Ar. 15. Of the same iudgement you say was not Leo onely but the whole Councell of Constantinople the sixt Actione 18. confessing that the Heretikes and Schismatikes growe so fast because they were not beaten downe by preaching of the Gospel and authoritie of the Scriptures I confesse the same howbeit the Councell doth not But what is that for Onely Scripture yea the place is playne for the other side I maruell you could not espie as much euen by the piece that you alleage althogh you saw not the whole circumstance Béeing truely translated this it is If al men had simply and without calliditie from the beginning receiued the Gospels preaching and bene content with the Apostles institutions the matters verily had bene well a fyne and neither the authors of the heresies nor the fautors of the Priests had bene put to the paines of conflictes Who would rest here as you do and not imagine somewhat to follow with a but necessary to be séene Sed quia Satanas c. But because the diuell not resting raiseth vp his squires therfore Christ also in time conuenient hath raised vp his warriers against them to wit the Generall Councels that to this time haue ben holden by the dilligence of the Emperours and the Popes being Sixe in number So expresly they auouch the authoritie of the Councels and you alleage them for Only Scripture wheras also in the words that
a sacrifice or no and how it is or is not we nede not stand here about it As also because he doth not say that no sacrifice ought to be offered to Martyrs as you pretend but he speaketh of external sacrifice the definition wherof you may conceiue by that litle which I said cap. 6. pag. 49. and of one certaine externall sacrifice We offer the sacrifice to the one God Aug. de ci li. 8. ca. 27. That prayer to Saintes is not a sacrifice to Saintes who is both the Martyrs God ours At which sacrifice they be named in their place and order In so much that by this one Sacrifice he answereth the Paganes touching certaine dishes of meate brought by some Chrystians to the Martyrs churches euen as I answere you touching prayer made to them Non autem ista esse c. But that these be not sacrifices to the Martyrs he knoweth that knoweth the One Sacrifice of the Christians which is there offered to God Those Christians do meane no more but to haue them there sanctified by the merites of the Martyrs in the name of the Lorde of the Martyrs Let the third example be of ceremonies generally suche as he confesseth here cap. 3. pag. 15. to haue bene in the primitiue church also And two obiections of his against them I haue answered cap. 6. pag. 45. But now he will reproue them out of Scripture also first by his vsual argumeÌ„t ab authoritate negatiue Ar. 19. Because they are destitute of God his word which only is able to giue theÌ„ strength and estimation And yet in other places cleane contrary not only Scripture but also example of the Primitiue church is sufficient for them as where he saith Ar. 21.42 If any thing be allowed without controuersie on both sides it did either procede from the Scripture of God or froÌ„ the Primitiue Church Ar. 48. Iust Apol. 2. or els it is a thing meerely indifferent And to this purpose he citeth Iustinus Martyr who declareth playnly he saith what order of seruice and ministration of Sacramentes our Church vsed before Papistrie preuayled As though the booke or books of seruice were no more then these few lines in Iustinus And yet also to sée the blindnesse of this maÌ„ so litle as he bringeth out of that Martyr yet is there plaine against his CommunioÌ„ booke Water mingled with wine But no one word against the Masse booke yea it is the very suÌ„me of the Masse vnlesse you be so foolish to thinke that the Bishops sermon the Receauing of all present the Carying of it to them that be absent and the Rich mens offering may not be omitted in any Masse nor for any cause Now let vs here against Ceremonies Ar. 19. your authorities of Scripture affirmatiuely We detest and abhorre all your beggarly Ceremonies which you count holy and solemne obseruations For we know that God is not to be worshipped with such thinges but that the true worshippers must worship him in spirite and veritie Ioa. 4. Then belike you detest all Ceremonies and all outward thinges those also of the Primitiue Church yea and of the Scripture it selfe which erewhile you allowed You saw this reply and therefore in another place you would moderate the matter saying The seruice of God hath small neede of furniture Ar. 51. in outward things For God beeing a spirite is not worshipped with outward Pompe but with spirituall and inward reuerence And as for other furniture that is necessarie was decreed to the Church by the Emperour Constantine and his Successors Notwithstanding the Church was in better case before such furniture was graunted then since Like one that will not hold his peace and yet cannot tell what to say If Gods being a spirite admitteth some outward furniture well ynough then haue you missensed that text The meaning is that outward thinges without the inward man please not God But for all that the inward man may vse outward gestures outward wordes and other outward thinges as Christ him selfe his Apostles and all the Church euer did For so to do is to adore God who is a spirit in spirit truth And touching the other text that you alleage not but allude vnto those weake beggerly elemeÌ„tes Gal. 4. are the Ceremonies of the old law specially after the death of Christ whom they shadowed and much more the Galathians being Gentiles to whom they neuer parteyned and you wrest it against the Ceremonies that are vsed in the administration of the gracious Sacramentes of Christ and that by the order of them that could say Visum est spiritui sancto nobis Act. 15. It hath seemed good to the holy Ghost and to vs. Like as agaynst the Lessons Responses Versicles and suche other distinctions or varieties in the Seruice you alleage Matth. 15. Ar. 20. In vayne do they worshippe me teaching for doctrine the preceptes of men Such is your ignorance in the Scripture by reason of your malice The preceptes of men are those which be of men and not of God as those traditions of the two late Elders Hilleb Sammai béeing partly friuolous as those vayne lotions partly also contrarie to Gods Commaundementes as that of Corban Tit. 1. wherevppon S. Paule biddeth Titus to be earnest wiâ—h the Cretensians that they listen not to Iudaicall fables mandatis hominum and to the preceptes of men that turne away from the trueth Wherevpon the inuentions also of Luther Caluine and all other Heretikes are the preceptes of men and their followers worship they knowe not what Ioan. 4. Pur. 21. and if they be also zelous it is without knowledge Rom. 10. But so are not likewise the preceptes of them to whom our Sauiour saide He that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you Luc. 10. despiseth me And therefore S. Paule commaunded them of Syria and Cilicia Act. 15.16 to keepe the preceptes of the Apostles and Priestes that were decréed in the Councell of Hierusalem S. Augustine likewise here cap. 6. pag. 45. embraceth the Ceremonies decréed in Councels of Bishoppes and muche more them that are vsed throughout the whole Churche And you falsifie the Councell of Laodicia when you saye It decreed Conc. Lao ca. 59. that nothing should be song or read in the Churche but the Canonicall bookes of holy Scripture No Syr that did rather your friende Paulus Samosatenus who reiected the Psalmes and Songs which to the honour of our Lorde Iesus Christ Eus li. 7. c. 24. decantari solent are wont to be song saith Eusebius tanquam recentiores as beeing but lately made and set out by men of late memorie Renewing the Heresie of Artemon agaynst the Godhead of Christe the whiche a certayne Catholike doth there confute long afore ex Hymnis a fidelibus fratribus antiquitus perscriptis concentu quodam Eus li. 5. c. 27. By the Hymnes made of olde in meeter by faythfull brethren He
then with you in ten and namely to declare the effect of the Sacraments according to the Councell of Trent Sess 8. c. 7. which in another place you cite to such as receaue thē Fiftly argumentes néede not you say playnly The spirituall Priesthood is common to al Christian men and women Pur. 450.451.299 1. Pet. 1. as true it is and against all other Priesthood of any Christian men you say in the same place There is no Priesthood to offer sacrifice propitiatorie but onely the Priesthood of Christ according to the order of Melchisedech Heb. 7. By and by after making vs as in a great absurditie to say Christ is not onely our high Priest according to the order of Melchisedech For euery hedge Priest is of the same order Why you call thē hedge Priests looke you But this cannot be denyed that in the Scriptures and in the Primitiue Church certaine Christian men were Priestes otherwise then Lay men and women as the Apostles S. Timothie S. Hierome S. Cyprian c. And therefore then there was some other Priesthood besydes the spirituall Priesthood which is common to all And therefore againe you haue taken away the Priesthood by your owne confession Sixtly and lastly if to salue this deadly sore you will inuent some third kind of Priesthood I say that the primitiue or fathers Priesthood was according to the order of Melchisedech to offer a sacrifice in bread wine The sacrifice of the Masse as Melchisedech and Christ did And therfore you be against the Priesthood because you be against this Priesthood arguing rayling at it al that you can But we Christians to whom this Priesthood is playnly descended from the Apostles and Fathers none of you all being able to shew any later origine of it regard not your arguments they be but obiections And yet to defend the truth more fully for our Fathers and not onely for our selues we solue them euery one But first that the Reader may see whose aduersarie you be herein he shall heare S. Augustine The Manichée had falsified S. Paule making him to say qui sacrificant Au. cō Ad uer leg prophet li. 1. c. 19.20 1. Cor. 10. daemonijs sacrificant They which sacrifice do sacrifice to diuels quasi omnes qui sacrificant non sacrificent nisi daemonibus as if al that sacrifice do not sacrifice but to deuils He therfore sheweth the Apostle not to say qui sacrificant they which sacrifice but quae sacrificant the things that they sacrifice speaking of the Idolatrers They do sacrifice to the diuels and you therefore are communicantes with the diuels if you eate of those sacrifices euen as Israel secundum carnem the Iudaicall people eating of their sacrifices was therby partaker of the Altar in their Temple Deinde secutus adiunxit ad quod sacrificium iam debeant pertinere Then he followeth and addeth to what sacrifice the Corinthians now must pertaine being Christians and Israel secundum spiritum saying The Chalice of blessing which we doe blesse is it not the Communication of the bloud of Christ The bread which we breake is it not the participation of the body of our Lorde vt intelligerent ita se iam socios esse Corporis Christi quemadmodum illi socij sunt altaris That they might vnderstand themselues now to be Communicātes of the body of Christ so as the Iewes are Communicantes of their Altar And then a few lines after The Churche from the Apostles time by most certaine Successions of Byshops to our time and hereafter doth continue et immolat Deo in corpore Christi sacrificium laudis and doth sacrifice to God in Christes Body a sacrifice of praise Psal 49. For this Church is Israel after the spirit from whom is distinguished that Israel after the fleshe who serued in the shadowes of sacrifices by which was signified the singular Sacrifice which now Israel secundum spiritum doth offer Iste immolat Deo sacrificium laudis c. Psal 109. This Israel doth sacrifice to God a sacrifice of praise not after the order of Aaron but after the order of Melchisedech Nouerunt qui legunt c. Gene. 14. The Readers know what Melchisedech did bring forth when he did blesse Abraham And now they be partakers thereof they see such a sacrifice now to be offered to God ouer all the worlde Mala. 1. Et quod Deum non paenitebit c. And where the Psalme sayeth God will not repent him it is a signification that he will not chaunge this Priesthood for he changed the Priesthood after the order of Aaron And not onely S. Augustine but the whole rancke of the holy Fathers doth teach the same such a Priesthood to be and to continue in the Church to offer suche a sacrifice in the forme of bread and wine tearming it after the order of Melchisedech Pur. 295. in so muche that you also confesse and say Those of the olde Writers which compare the celebration of the Lordes Supper with Melchisedeches bread and wine which you say they call sometime the Sacrifice of bread and wine noting that as though it made against Transubstantiation which vayne collection I haue refuted here cap. 8. pag. 148. and also adding further And yet but a sacrifice of thankesgiuing Whether but for thankesgiuing and not also for procuring mercy I haue here at large examined cap. 9. pag. 196. to 204. But that is nothing to the matter which we haue nowe in hande For a Sacrifice of thankesgiuing is and in the olde Lawe was a Sacrifice no lesse properly then a Sacrifice of propitiation And the Sacrifice of the Crosse was both I trow and therefore the Sacrifice of the Altar to be the one what doth that let but it maye be the other also Likewise a memoriall Sacrifice of Christes passion no lesse then a prefiguratiue Sacrifice is a true sacrifice though it be not called his very passion but by a similitude And therefore al that you alleage out of Augustine Pur. 292.316.320 Chrysostome Cyprian Irenée Iustine Ambrose although they saide all as you woulde haue them that this is a memory of Christes passion and not his passion but only in a mysterie is all nothing to the purpose Pur. 292.294.320.321.326 And therefore you haue yet a better aunswere in store We confesse you saye that of the olde Writers it is commonly called a Sacrifice but vnproperly And howe do you shewe that Because * Ambr. ad virg lapsā De virg l. 1. orat in fr. Satyr one of them saith of a virgine that to her death is vnspotted that her Parentes might count her Hostiam viuam a liuing Sacrifice propitiatricem suorum videlicet delictorum a Propitiatrix or procurer of mercy for their sinnes by making intercession for them to God in heauen You might as well argue that S. Paule in saying Christes body by death to be made a Sacrifice Heb. 10. speaketh
can doubt but this present plague and thraldome of the Gréekes is fallen vpon them and the like or worse to fall vpon the like for their departing from the Church of Rome as it was foretolde them full often though you counte it false and vnreasonable so to say And why Pur. 396. because the Affricanes were plagued and subuerted for other sinnes So substantiall are your reasons As if you would say Ten Tribes were not subuerted for their Schisme because the two Tribes were subuerted for other sinnes 29. Traditions Motiue 9. The 29. Demaund mentioneth that the Apostles left to the Church not Onely Scripture as Fulke would proue by the Scriptures and Fathers here cap. 8. pag. 100. to 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. to 183. which all I haue aunswered but also vnwritten Traditions wherof no one is against vs and many of them so directly against the Protestants that although he cōfesse them as for exāple the memorie of the dead in the Canon of the Masse to haue the most approued Fathers testimonie to be Traditions Apostolike here cap. 3. pag. 15. to 20. yet he is fayne to denie that eyther they or any Traditions at al be of the Apostle ca. 7. pa. 80. to 89. So as neuer did the Catholikes I say in this Demaund but onely Heretikes Pur. 383.409.412 But against this I find that he alleageth a saying of S. Irene as though by his iudgement we rather be Valentinian Heretikes who with the Fathers here cap. 3. 7. pag. 19. 84. besides Scripture do holde with Tradition of vnwritten verities And Lord how he croweth against D. Allen for alleaging the same saying against the Protestantes vpon their denying of the Machabées not considering that by S. Irenée there they no more be Heretikes who will haue Tradition then they who wil haue Scripture Iren. li. 3. ca. 2.3 S. Irenée him selfe as all Catholikes will haue both But those old Heretikes would in effect saith he haue neither Neque Scripturis iam neque Traditioni consentire c. They would yeeld neither to the Scriptures nor to Tradition For whē they be confuted out of the Scriptures they turne to accuse the Scriptures thē selues as though they be corrupted nor be not Canonicall and that they be ambiguous and that out of them can not be found the sincere trueth by such as know not the Tradition because that was not deliuered by writings but a certayne mingle mangle and the sincere truth by word of mouth Well then saith the Catholike let vs hardly try by Tradition What do they then they say that the Apostles either them selues knew not all things or that they taught their Successors of one sort in open place and these mens Patriarches in secret of another sort Cum autem ad eam iterum Traditionem c. And when againe to that Tradition which is from the Apostles which is conserued in the Churches by Successions of the Priestes we prouoke those Heretikes who are aduersaries to Tradition as the former were to Scripture they will say that they beeing wyser then not onely the Priestes but also the Apostles haue found the sincere truth Aduersus tales certamen nobis est O dilectissime Against suche we haue to fight O my dearest who as slipery as snakes seeke on euery side to flye What way shall we then take with them Traditionem Apostolorum in toto mundo manifestatam in Ecclesia adest perspicere omnibus qui vera velint audire He that list to heare lyes may séeke to these Heretikes and the secrete Tradition which they pretend But all that will heare the truth may in the Church see the Apostles Tradition whiche was published in the whole world Et habemus annumerare And we can reherse them who were of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in the Churches and their Successors euen vnto vs. Who taught nor knew no such thing as these men dote vpon For if the Apostles had knowen straunge mysteries which they taught the perfect Seorsim latenter ab reliquis apart from the rest and priuilie no doubt they would haue committed them specially to those to whom they committed also the Churches And then because it is to long he saith to rehearse al Successions he reckoneth the Successors of S. Peter and Paule in the greatest and auncientest and knowen to all men in the Romaine Church Whose Tradition which she hath from the Apostles comming euen vnto vs by Successions of Bishops we reporting confundimus omnes eos do confound all Heretikes and Schismatikes Et est plenissima haec ostensio And this is a most full demonstration that it is al one quickening faith which from the Apostles is kept in the Church till now and deliuered in trueth Loe now Syr who hath such yll grace to alleage the Doctors against him selfe For who denieth here cap. 9. pag. 165. the authoritie of suche Scriptures as are Canonized by the Church which himselfe confesseth to be the true Church Who also refuseth the Tradition and saith I say not by those Heretikes pretended but euen of the Apostolike Churches euen of the Romaine Church and not now onely but then also when your selfe do graunt that it was the true Church As for vs we reiect neither the Churches Scriptures nor the Churches Tradition but answere all that you detort to maynteine your Heresies and restore it to the right meaning 30 Their owne Doctors Motiue 16. That the Apostles and all men and things that be of them are against our Protestantes and in no poynt with them against vs it is many wayes shewed by the aforesaid Besides all these I note in the next Demaund also their owne masters and felowes namely Luther and Caluine to haue condemned them Such leaders hath our miserable Countrey chosen to followe forsaking the sure guydance of Gods Church in which our Forefathers together with the Catholikes of all other Countries so many ages before prospered in earth and atchiued to heauen 31.32.33 Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent In thrée Demaundes following I do shewe that the rules of Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent taught by Vincentius Lirinensis and the other Fathers doe make for vs and against the Protestantes Which is so playne that Fulke is faine to refuse those rules abusing a saying of S. Augustines as it were for Onely Scripture against them here cap. 7. pag. 80. and cap. 9. pag. 180. Motiue 10.11.28 Arti. 15.26 34. Authoritie The Protestantes finding the Primitiue Church whiche they dare not denie but it was the true Church here cap. 2. to be in many poyntes so playnly against them that they must confesse it them selues as here cap. 3. do hold that the true Church may erre vniuersally and also did erre cap. 3.4 And therefore make their exception against it also cap. 7. pa. 89. And that with pretence of Scripture to warrant their so doing cap. 8. pag. 117. vnto which I haue fully answered Herevpon in my 34. Dem. I affirme
ignorance and otherwise do liue in good works especially his welbeloued seruantes also praying for them Yet to damne such also because they be out of the Church is congruous to his iustice Yea for God to saue al the world is cōdigne to the merites of Christ yet he damneth innumerable because that it is condigne to their owne merites Thus while you went about to stayne Gods Church in vaine it is fallen out only by the way that you your selues are Messalians for denying the grace of the Sacraments Pelagians for denying the necessitie of Baptisme and Manichees for denying Frée-will This is all that you haue gayned 39 In confessed Heretikes onely Motiue 46 When we make the Protestantes to confesse as in the last Demaund that the Primitiue Church noted certaine to be Heretikes for holding their doctrine they set themselues against the Primitiue Church also such is their obstinacie say that those persons were not Heretikes therein We therefore not leauing them so if it be possible any way to open their eyes or at lest the eyes of the poore deceiued people do shew them as in this next Demaund that the same persons were Heretiks in other poynts also so playnly that we make them to confesse that also And neither yet will their hard stonie hartes relent Ar. 44. If Aerius had not bene an Arrian saith Fulk his opinion against praying for the dead could not haue made him an heretike though both Epiphanius of the Gréeke Church and Augustinus of the Latin Church do so register him Then what do we more We aske them Pur. 421. Why God openeth these mysteries alwayes and onely to suche as you your selues saith D. Allen to them can not deny to be Heretikes and not to Athanasius Epiphanius Augustinus or some other blessed men of that time but contrariwise leaueth these his elect and doctors of his Church in ignorance yea and with pertinacie condemning those true mysteries for soule Heresies and hath no body in the meane time to be their reformers but such as are infamous and of no credite by reason of abominable confessed heresies And do they yet relent No I warrant you Such a yoke it is to be once wedded to heresie And yet they haue no answere herevnto that may satisfy any man of reason as now we shal sée For thus saith Fulke vnto it Pur. 409.422.424 Ar. 44. What if any Heretike hath affirmed some thing that is true Is trueth worse in an Heretikes mouth The diuels them selues confessed Christ As though it were agréed that it was trueth which those Heretikes affirmed as it was agréed that he was Christ whom those diuels confessed No syr that is the question But if the diuels had said one thing and the Apostles the contrarie which then were like to haue bene the trueth For so the Catholike Fathers saide with vs and the Arrians said with you which therefore is like to be the truth You say truth hath testimonie of Gods word and whether it be affirmed or denyed by the diuell it is all one Mary in déede he that would defende the diuell saying agaynst the Apostles affirming that he can bring Gods word must néedes haue audience though he put vs to our trumps So you defending Aerius the Arrian Heretike against the Catholike fathers bringing Scripture do trouble vs forsooth as the reader hath séene here in the 8. chapter where I haue answered al your Scriptures as all must nedes be answerable that is brought against truth and so they find which reade our writings But because that way to reade all is long we tel such as would not make so great a iorney that they may be sure without more trauell that not to be of God the reuealer of all trueth which Heretikes held against the Catholiks as also that which the diuels might hold against the Apostles And the more because we reade that Christ and his Apostles cōmaunded the diuell to silence Luc. 4. Act. 16. when also he confessed trueth for proceeding out of his lying mouth it might as Fulke saith wel the sooner be discredited Whereas in our case by the saying of the Protestantes he commaunded the diuell and his Heretikes to teach the trueth and the Fathers to silence or rather not to silence but suffering them to resiste the trueth all that they could Pu. 422.421 But he can aunswere one question with another Why was it first reueiled sayth he to the Arrians in Councell that the Article of Christes discent into hell was meete to be added to the Crede which was not reueiled to so many godly men as set forth the Symbole nor to the holy Nicene Councell Answere me if you can He speaketh so of this matter without any quoting of Author as if it were a thing notoriously knowen Belyke it is receiued among them who would put it out of the Crede againe as a principle of their Aristotle and I who reade not their bookes but with leaue and for necessitie am not so well acquainted in their mysteries Perhaps a friends ghesse of mine is true that they say so because they find it in some Arrian Crede that is recorded in the Ecclesiasticall Storie Theo. li. 2. cap. 21. For it is found in déede in Theodorete that the false Nicene Arrian Synode saide in their newe Crede Crucified dead and buried descended into hell whom hell it selfe did tremble at According to the ydle or rather hypocriticall diligence of Heretikes who vse in Credes or confessions of their false doctrines to infarse some nedeles truethes Whereas the Catholike Nicene Councell thought it ynough in their Crede to repeate and explicate onely those Articles of the Apostles common Crede of which Articles Heretiks had as then made question Is not this then a substantiall cause to say that it was firste reuealed to the Arrians to put it in the Créede whereas it was before in the Apostles Créede Though also if it were true that the Arrians did first put it into the Créede what is that to our case They had not the Catholikes in that against them yea it was a common Article of the Catholikes faith The Articles of the Arrian Aerius were not such As also the Article agaynst Rebaptization which Article some Heretikes perhaps helde right when S. Cyprian and some other Catholike Bishoppes were deceyued in it But yet the Pope with the rest of Christendome helde it as they had it of the Apostles What is this to your Articles which onely olde wicked Heretikes did holde we saye against all Catholikes They were fitte Articles for Heretikes at all times but neuer for Catholikes as at this time also for Anabaptistes Seruetians or Arrians Suenkfeldians Pur. 421. all the others that you count Heretikes as well as we doe sayth D. Allen because they are their inheritance as well as yours descending from your common father Luther But for that wound also you haue a plaister if not to heale it
yet to couer it as you hope Ar. 96. Pur. 423. For there were manye more Heresies at the firste preaching of the Gospell in and immediatelye after the Apostles time then at the laste restoring of the publike preaching thereof vnto the worlde in our dayes when the Gentiles continued constant and the Iewes without schisme in their errours This is iumpe as I saye in my 35. Demaund That you be not able to alleage anye excuse for your diuision into so many Sectes which the Arrians Donatistes and other olde Heresies might not as well alleage for excuse of their diuisions Aug. de agone Christi ca. 29. and so when S. Augustine noteth that as Donatus went about to diuide Christ euen so he him selfe is of his owne Donatistes diuided euery day into sundry pieces to tell him as you do vs that also in the Apostles time the professours of Christianitie were rent and torne into an hundred Sectes and Heresies You want but that whiche is soone had we know figures and prophetes of another olde Testament and miracles of healing the diseased of all sortes of raysing the dead and such other petite matters to make demonstration that Donatus then or Luther now is another Christ and then we must be forced to graunte that you are as the Apostles and they as you And yet for all that I thinke we should not be forced to graunt that you haue the trueth but rather it would folow per impossibile that the Apostles had not the truth But it is well that the Apostles were not the cause of those Sectes and Diuisions no more then we now their heires be cause of your Sectes and Diuisions Your owne Diuiding of Christ whiche is the Apostles and ours by Senioritie in right possession is the meritorious cause of them as S. Augustine told the Donatistes And the efficient cause is your denying of all Catholike Principles and holding of Onely Scripture and that but so much as you liste of your owne heades and to be interpreted by euery ones priuate fantasie which you call the Spirite Finally your Articles do fitte them all very well in so much that their Sectiones lightly be not made by going from any Article of yours but from some more Articles of ours as the Anabaptistes from baptizing of Infantes from lawfull swearing c. If the case had bene thus with the Apostles the world had neuer beléeued them Ar. 27. 40 They neuer afore now Next after this I note that the Protestantes were neuer in the world before our time Fulk saith With the Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes we consent whollie in all pointes of Doctrine No not in one point at all vnles it be such a one as with vs also you consent in as I haue shewed cap. 8. and much lesse wholly in all pointes He saith further With Iustinus Irenaeus Cyprianus Athanasius Hilarius Ambrosius Augustinus c. Gildas we consent though not wholly in all pointes of Doctrine yet in the cheefe and most substantiall articles of faith Neither with them in any one pointe in maner aforesaid as I haue shewed cap. 9. Howbeit in this your owne saying you confesse my purpose For Vigilantius Iouinianus c. did muche more agrée with them in the cheefe and most substantiall Articles which you meane and yet were not of their Church could not be nor would not be If you say that you were then in those Heretikes Vigilantius and Iouinianus for I trow you will not say that you were in Aerius the Arrian nor in the Manichées nor Pelagians though they were your parteners in some pointes as we saw erewhile in the 38. Dem. that is a plaine confession that you were not in the Church of the Fathers Yet also that you were not in those Heretikes is plaine by this because they held no more of yours then the Fathers noted them for who would haue noted them also for denying prayer for the dead as they noted Aerius for it if they had denyed it as he did If you say that you were in that Church which went out of sight an 607. as you say here cap. 2. it is a chimera onely of your owne imagination you can not shewe any companie of Christians that departed from that Pope Bonifacius the thyrd and his adherents much lesse that they were Protestantes You come lower to Bertramus Marsilius de Padua Ar. 27.30.33.34.75.77.95.97 Pur. 420.341.344.345 Ioannes de Gauduno al. de Gaudano you call him Bruno Andeganensis Wickleue Iohn Hus and Hierome of Praga with their Bohemians c. as Berengarius Apostolici Waldo with his French Waldenses and Pauperes de Lugduno and Albigenses the Grecian Image breakers the maried Canons somtime in England and Emperours that defended their maried Priestes Of these you say as you did of the Fathers We consent with them in the chiefe and most substantiall articles of faith sauing that in one place where you passe some of them ouer with silence least we should obiect that they held with you but in some one or two pointes Wal. tom 3. ca. 7.8.9 Melan. epi. ad Fred. Micon there you say But Wickleue I wene you will not denie but he was of our Church and Religion Against this ignoraunt wene of yours the Catholike may reade Thomas Waldensis that excellent writer our Countreyman the Protestant may reade Philip Melancthon who report sundrie articles of Wickleues which you your selfe will detest namely humaine merites as Pelagius helde them in so much that Waldensis doth exhort Catholikes to say at euery worde the grace of God as nowe we sée vsed in our language because Wickleue did teache his to haue alwayes in their mouthes merita propria their owne merites And Melancthon saieth Prorsus non intellexit nec tenuit fidei iustitiam Verely he did not vnderstande nor holde the iustification of faith He nameth fiue other pointes of like weight and besides them all Deprehendi in eo multa alia errata ex quibus iudicium de eius spiritu fieri potest Looking in Wicklefe I found in him many other errors whereby one may iudge of his spirite Of Hus the like is written by Luther him self Luther apud Roffen ar 30. Non recte faciunt qui me Hussitam vocant Non enim mecum ille sentit They do not well that call me an Hussite For he is not of my iudgement as there he exemplifieth in the Popes Supremacie c. And how say you to the seditious article as Melancthon calleth it of both Wickleue and Hus Con. Constan Sess 8. art 15.17 touching ciuill dominion that it is lost immediately if the King doe fall into mortall sinne Hauing shewed this in them whom you thought your selfe most sure of I néede not to goe particularly through the rest which otherwise and if it were not too long I myght easilye doe to your confusion For what a poore and fowle shifte is this of yours Whether Apostolici in Bernardes time were sclaundered
yet he is warned withall if he be a great sinner not to thinke but that he oweth muche more then he is inioyned and therefore that he muste eyther paye it otherwise in his life or procure pardon for it by greater authoritie or els most certainely it will be exacted after his death These I say are all the chaunges to belong any way to the controuersies of this time though you note some others not so belonging Which therefore I might omitte welynough For it is inough for vs that we can say with S. Augustine Aug. epist 165. In hoc ordine successionis nullus Donatista Episcopus inuenitur In this orderly succession no Donatist nor Protestant Bishoppe is founde As for other matters if Iulianus Apostata chaunged into Paganisme what were that to our purpose Woulde that do any thing to proue a chaunge agaynst vs namely that the Emperour whiche nowe is Rodolph the second is chaunged from the Religion of Constantinus the great So therefore if any Pope had chaunged the Romaines into Arrians or into Monothelites that were no vauntage for you Howe muche lesse considering you shewe neither so muche as that You tell vs Pur. 376. that Sabinianus condemned the Decrees of hys predecessour Gregorie and Stephanus the Decrees of Formosus c. Why then doe not you make Sabinianus rather the first Antichrist but skippe him and make the next to him the first to witte S. Boniface the third Both he and some other Popes are said I graunt though you alleage no author to haue disanulled certaine Actes of their next predecessors but not one to haue condemned any decrées made of doctrine Againe you tell vs Ar. 27.85.92 Pur. 344. Act. 23. that many of them were tyrantes traitors whoremongers Sodomites murtherers poysoners sorcerers necromancers warriers and one whore also So you blaspheme the Princes of your people But you shew not that any of these if they were such did for all that chaunge Religion at Rome S. Augustine long agoe told vs where he reckeneth vp the Bishops of this Chaire that it were nothing against the Church Aug. epist 165.166 Si quisquam Traditor per illa tempora subrepsisset if any Traitor had crept into it al the while because our Heauenly Master hath said vnto vs of euil Prelates Doe what they say but doe not what they doe for they say and doe not Mat. 23. warning vs thereby and assuring vs That for them the Chaire of healthfull doctrine should not of vs be forsaken in which the euill also are compelled to say that which is good For it is not their owne that they say but it is Gods who in the chaire of vnitie hath set the doctrine of veritie Wherefore also if any heretike créepe into it we are secure because we are warranted that he shall not teache his heresie out of it much lesse shall he chaunge them whom he teacheth For none teach heresies but you and such others that separate your selues from the vnitie of that Chaire Ar. 91. Pur. 376. Therefore supposing that Honorius was a Monothelite both in opinion and in some secrete writing yet did he not chaunge nor goe about to chaunge the Romanes into Monothelites Yea both he and the Church of Rome in his time and after his time did faithfully resist and mightily ouerthrowe that heresie as you may sée in D. Saūders a San. Mo. li. 7. pa. 418 Monarchie Where you shall finde also the case of b Ib. p. 518. Ar. 91. Pur. 443. Iohn .22 truely reported he was so farre from chaunging the Romanes faith that he vtterly denyed the error which his contentious enemies laid vnto him Which was not as you and Caluine doe belie the storie against the Immortalitie of the Soule and resurrection of the body but whether any Soules doe sée God before the Generall Resurrection Also of S. c Sand. ib. pa. 324. ad 336. Liberius of whom I also will report the truth in the next Demaund howbeit your selfe likewise confessed Cap. 2. Pag. 3. the Romanes long after his time to haue continued without all chaunge Finally that fable of d Sand. ib. pa. 436. Onuph addit ad Plat. in vita Ioan 8. Cop. Dial. 1.5.8 the woman Pope cléerely confuted and more copiously by Onuphrius and others Mine owne chaunce it was in England long agoe hearing a Protestant who was counted a great Historian stand vpon it to say vnto him that it was maruell why among so many Historiographers not one made mention of her before Martinus Polonus who was .400 yeares after her time He therevpon brought out the same Martinus in a faire written hand turned to the place and behold shée was not in the text but in the Margine in an other hand Nowe quoth I when I saw that I perceiue that also this Author fayleth you He was confounded to sée it and saide he would at leasure looke his Bookes better Therefore in harping continually vpon these most vnconsonant stringes you do no more but declare your selues to be such as the Apostle prophesied of They will turne their yeares away from trueth 2. Tim. 4. they will not abide it as that S. Peter was euer at Rome c. but vnto fables they will turne themselues most willingly be they neuer so false improbable and absurd 46. Our Auncetors saued and theirs damned Motiue 36. To make it yet more plaine what a madnesse it is to forsake our Churche and turne to the Protestantes I note in the next Demaund Saluation to be so certainly in our companie and Religion that the Protestantes themselues dare not say our people to haue béene damned for so many hundred yeares as they liued and dyed in our side Whereas we say boldly with the holy Fathers here Cap. 3. that whosoeuer is a Protestant not onely in all but so much as in any one point as were Aerius Iouinianus Vigilantius c. is therefore a damnable Heretike But they dare not so say neither of our Masters who knowing the preaching of those fellowes condemned them and therefore could not be excused by ignoraunce No not so much as of the very Authors of our Monkes and Friers as S. Bernard Saint Frauncis S. Dominike of whom what Peter Martyr saide I reported Cap. 5. Pag. 33. the whole Chapter is also of Fulkes owne wordes to the same effect specially Pag. 30. where he dare not pronounce of manifest Papistes but that they might be saued for building vpon the foundation in his sence though no Protestant builde vpon the foundation in S. Paules sense as there I shew Therefore his Diuinitie maketh with me in this Demaund rather then against me although he denyeth some particulare Saintes of ours Ar. 23.24.25.85 and also the Canonization of Saintes An easie matter it is for Heretikes when they can not proue the Catholike religion to be heresie agaynst God to make it by their Parliament Treason against the king and then when they put
meant of the Apostles and their successors the ministers of the Church he teacheth them aboue al other men to looke diligently to their life conuersation for as they excell in place dignitie so the eyes of all men are set vpon them As a citie builded vpon an hill must needes be seene of all that come neare it so they beeing placed in so high an office and dignitie shall be noted and marked aboue all other men One part of the Church is alwayes visible to the eyes of all men and can not be hidden and yet the whole Church and so also that part is not alwayes visible but may be hidden and was hidden for a 1000. yeres So he saith 31 b Ar. 35. Pur. 458. The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles time And so the error of praying for the dead was continued frō a corrupt state of the Church of Christ vnto a plaine departing away into the Church of Antichrist Contra The Primitiue pure Church for the space of an hundreth yeares after Christ Againe Ar. 16. Pur. 458. An. 607. The Church fled into the wildernes there to remaine a long season where she hath not decayed but bene alwayes preserued vntill God should bring her againe to open light now in our dayes c Pur. 364. The true Church shall neuer decay but alway raigne with Christ The false Synagoge shall dayly more and more decay vntill it be vtterly destroyed with Antichrist the head therof If this be not contradiction it is much worse to wit that Luther and his Apostles haue giuen vs a visible Church which shall not decay Whereas Christ and his Apostles gaue vs a visible Church which did decay yea and plainly departe away into Apostasie 32 At euery word he calleth the Pope Antichrist and the head of the malignant Church Contra in some places he maketh two distincte heades and their distincte companies Ar. 16.95 As when Mahomet in the East and Antichrist the Pope in the west seduced the world then the Church fled into the wildernes Againe The Popish Church is not in euery parte of the world for Mahomets sect is in the greatest parte 33 That the true Church may erre and hath erred notwithstanding any priuilege it hath by Gods Spirite we hard him say cap. 3. Nowe to the contrarie Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 Neither hath the Spirite of God failed to leade her into all trueth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 There be some prerogatiues of Gods Spirite that are necessarie for the saluation of Gods elect as the gift of vnderstanding the gift of faith c And these the Spouse of Christ hath neuer wanted Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 True Faith c. might be signes of the true Church The Spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ and is ruled thereby The Church of God is the piller stay of truth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 so called because that wheresoeuer the Church is either visible or inuisible ther is the truth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 S. Paul by this title doth admonish Pastors and preachers how great a burden and charge they susteine that the truth of the Gospell can not be cōtinued in the world but by their ministery in the Church of God which is the piller and stay of truth This their duety true preachers considering are diligent in their calling to preach the trueth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 As our Church is the piller and stay of trueth so is she also the house of trueth which knoweth nothing but him that is the trueth it selfe Iesus Christ his most holy Scripture in which this trueth is signed and testified Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 We require you to beleeue the true Cathòlike Church onely and immediatly againe to the contrarie We require you not to beleue any one companie of men more then another 34 The error of Purgatorie and praying for the dead is continued from a corrupt state of the Church of Christ Pur. 458. vnto a playn departing away into the Church of Antichrist Contra The true and onely Church of God is so guyded by Gods spirite Ar. 88. and directed by his word that she can not induce any damnable error to continue No nor suffereth any man damnably abusing her religion without open reprehension and yet Purgatorie c. came in with silence 35 Ar. 5.4.9 The Church of Christ hath of the holy Ghost a iudgement to discerne true writings from counterfectes and the word of God of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre Ar. 5.4.9 She hath commended the bookes of holy Scripture to be beleeued of all true Christians Ar. 5.4.9 We persuade vs of the authoritie of Gods booke because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirite for the authoritie of it with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages Contra Pur. 219. All other writings are in better case then the Scriptures are with you For other writings may be coūted the works of their authors without your censure the holy Scripture may not be counted the word of God except you liste so to allow it Other writings are of credite according to the authoritie of the writers The holy Scriptures with you haue not credite according to the authoritie of God the author of them but according to your determination Ar. 65. Ar. 82. 36 Those that by true Christians haue bene called and counted for Heretikes haue proued so in deede Contra This Demaund hath a false principle that the Church ought to be a Christian mans onely it is not in D. Allens principle staye in all troubles and tempestes Ar. 65. 37 And therefore the Papistes being called and counted Heretikes of true Christians that is of the Protestantes without doubt are Heretikes in deede Contra He is a foolish Sophister Ar. 66. that reasoneth from names to things as you do most vainely and childishly Ar. 86. Pur. 367. 38 There is neuer Heresie but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Contra Augustines argument of the publike prayers of the Church tooke no holde of the Pelagians by force of trueth that is in it but by their owne confession and graunt of that prayer to be godly and them to be of the Church that so prayed But now the controuersie is not onely of the substance of doctrine but of the Church it selfe also The Donatistes chalenged the Church to them selues Ar. 60.61 39 But for the chiefe poyntes of Christian Religion and the foundation of our faith that is Real presence c. the most approued writers are vtterly agaynst you and therefore can not be of your Church Contra But the Lutheranes and Zuinglians as it pleaseth you to call them are of one true Church although they differ in one opinion concerning the Sacrament the one affirming a Real presence the other denying it Out
the Doâ—stes is Vbi sit ecclesia where the Church is whether with vs or with them What shall we do then shall we seeke her in verbis nostris in our owne wordes or in the wordes of her head our Lorde Iesus Christ I thinke we ought rather to seeke her in his wordes who is trueth and beste knoweth his owne body Where by our owne wordes you vnderstande all besides Onely Scripture But S. Augustine doth not so quicquid nobis inuicem obricimus verba nostra sunt Our wordes are whatsoeuer we obiect one to another of deliuering the diuine bookes in Dioclesians time of burning frankinsence to the Idols of persecuting As all your declayming also at this time against vs is for certayne crimes of certayne men We hauing the like yea and them more haynous and that more truely to charge you withall But these words S. Augustine will and we with him to be silent when the Church is sought and the words of Christ in the Scripture to sound Againe you alleage him Epist 48. ad Vincentium RogatistaÌ„ where he â—aith We are sure that no man could iustly separat him selfe as Luther did a communione omnium gentium from the communion of all nations because none of vs seeketh the Churche in his owne righteousnesse but in the holy Scriptures Wherevnto you adde your fiue â—gges saying So if the Papistes would not presume of their owne righteousnesse but seeke â—he Churche of Christe in the Scriptures they would not sepaâ—ate them selues from the communion of Christes Church now â—y Gods grace inlarged further then the Popish Church There 〈◊〉 no crooked gambrell bow that casteth so wide as you do the â—octors wordes these specially from their scope I maruell â—uche at you for it and muche more if you sawe the place By 〈◊〉 Communion of all Nations so often agaynst the Donaâ—es Saint Augustine meaneth the Societie of that visible â—urch which as it beganne visibly at Hierusalem so visibly grewe on afterwardes and groweth on to this day and to the worldes ende ouer all nations From whiche Societie or Companie Epist 48. fieri non potest it is impossible saith he that any can haue iuste cause to separate their companie Because the Donatistes saide that Cecilianus the Catholike Bishop of Carthage had yéelded in Dioclesians persecution and that all the other Catholikes by communicating with him after that whereas they should haue excommunicated him for euer were also defiled thereby and therefore that them selues who had not yéelded did well to separate them selues from the Catholikes as the iust from the vniust Therevpon Saint Augustine saith notably Iust separation impossible If any may haue a iust cause to separate their companie from the companie of all Nations and to call that Ecclesiam Christi the Church of Christ Vnde scitis How know you in all Christendome beeing so wide and side lest perhaps before you did separate your selues some did afore separate them selues for some iust cause in some so farre countreys that the bruite of their iustice is not come to you How can the Church béeing but one be in you rather then in them who before perhaps haue separated them selues Ita fit c. So it remayneth that seeing you know not this same you be vncertayne of your selues Which likewise must needes happen to all others who vse for their Societie the testimonie not of God but of them selues that is of their owne iustice And then a litle after Nos autem ideo certi sumus But we Catholikes are certayne that none can haue iustly separated himself from the companie of all Nations quia non quisque nostram in iustitia sua because any of vs doth not in his owne iustice but in the diuine Scriptures seeke for the Church Et vt promissa est reddi conspicit and seeth it to be represented euen as it was promised to wit from Hierusalem to Rome from the Iewes ouer all nations being mixt both of good and bad and the good not consenting no whit defiled by the companie of the bad And therefore whether any of our Popes any of our other Bishops any of our other fathers any of our Catholike brethren haue bene so yll as the Protestants make them or no sure we are that Luther possibly could not as neither euer any could or can iustly separate him selfe because by the holy most euident Scriptures that only is the true church which beginning at IerusaleÌ„ groweth ouer all Nations in which by the same Scriptures we sée that once the Romanes were and from which the said Romanes did neuer separate theÌ„ selues afterward and with which Romanes Luther first was and afterwardes did Separate himselfe from them and so therfore from the true Church And yet come you like a blinde beetle and say that the Papistes did Separate them selues from your Church bragging as blindely of your inlarging For once hauing made a separation it is no inlarging afterwardes that can winne you the true Church from them that had it afore Of whose largenes yet also aboue your largenes read my 9.31.32.33.47 Demaundes and ioyne with me if you list vpon them Your third parte out of Augustine is more generall to wit about all questions with any Heretikes whatsoeuer thereof you say Ar. 13. that he would haue heresies confuted only by Scriptures For writing against Maximinus the Arian li. 3. ca. 14. a place commonly and often cited he saith Sed nunc nec ego Nicenum c. Of which place your gathering is this If Augustine would not oppresse the Arians by the authoritie of the Nicene Councell which was the first and the best generall Councell that euer was but only by the Scriptures how much lesse would he charge them with other authorities that the Papistes alleage beside the authoritie of holy Scriptures It is for your owne vantage or els you would not so play the proctor for Heretikes S. Augustine would not oppresse the Arians nor would not charge them but onely with Scripture you say But doth he say that he might not for there is the question You know I doubt not how commonly he presseth the Donatistes with the authoritie of the sayd Nicen Councell Aug. con Ep. parm li. 2. ca. 8. De bap coÌ„ Don. l. 1. c. 7 graunting that in S. Cyprians time it was a doubtfull thing whether Heretikes can baptize But nullo iam quaestio est now it is out of all doubt because in that same Councell it had bene discussed considered ended and ratified And euen so in your owne place a litle before hauing proued inuincibly by the Scriptures that the Father the Sonne are vnius eiusdemue substaÌ„tiae of one and the same substance he sayth immediatly This is that Homousion which against the Arrian heretikes was in the Nicene Councell ratified of the Catholike fathers veritatis authoritate authoritatis veritate not onely by authoritie of truth as your selfe do graunt but also by truth of authoritie
which you denie It followeth Which Homousion afterwards in the Councell of Atiminum hereticall impietie vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius endeuoured to infirme But all in vaine For soone after the libertie of the Catholike faith preuaiing Homousion was defended vniuersally Then come the words that you alleage Sed nunc nec ego NicenuÌ„ nec tu debes ArimineÌ„se tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre coÌ„cilium But now in this disputation betwene vs two being vpon the matter it selfe in it selfe as it were to preiudicate neither must I alleage the Councell of Nice nor thou the Councell of Ariminum For so that Arrian Bishop Maximinus being both to encounter with S. Augustine vpon the matter it selfe sayd in the very beginning of the disputation If thou demaund my faith I hold that faith which at Ariminum of three hundred and thirtie Bishops was not onely notified but also by their subscriptions ratified Au. contra Max. li. 1. in principio Therefore S. Augustine said as before and further as followeth Nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris Neither doth the authoritie of the one holde me nor of the other holde thee Where your false translation maketh him to say that the Arrian was not bounden to the authoritie of the Nicene Councell contrarie to that which he said afore calling it veritatem authoritatis the truth of authoritie Therefore they were bound to it as you also now be bound to the Tridentine Councell but they would not be holden within their boundes as neither you will And therefore it was to no more purpose to alleage against them that of Nice then it is to alleage against you this of Trent specially they hauing that of Ariminum to pretend for them such a one as you being of all great Heresies the beggerliest haue none Neither would we in the like altercations alleage against you the olde Councels if you would plainely confesse them to be against you so as you do confesse the Tridentine to be against you and so as the Arrians did confesse the Nicene to be against them Wherevpon S. Augustine there sayth By authorities of the Scriptures being witnesses not proper to one side but common to both let matter trie with matter cause with cause reason with reason The like would we by his ensample in the like case say to you in the meane time also not refusing to answere al that you can alleage be it Scripture be it Councell or whatsoeuer els as in this booke you finde nor requiring you to answere any priuate witnesses but onely common considering that not we onely but you also whatsoeuer you say of onely Scripture do make claime for all that and appeale to the first 600. yeares namely your Iewell in those two Goticall Sermons of his at Powles crosse Anno 1560. The other places also that you alleage out of Augustine for this generall parte are but particular and concerne no more but that one question of the Church whereof your second parte was as this former place coÌ„cerned no more but the question of the Trinitie And therefore your probation is not so large as your affirmation where you say that although Augustine proue against the Pelagians by the prayers of the Church Pur. 349. yet he doeth not meane to defend that whatsoeuer the visible Church receiueth is true and therefore all other perswasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scriptures to trie the faith doctrine of the Church How true that is appeareth by the very same booke De vnitate Ecclesiae out of which you go about to shewe such prouoking of his for there when he hath proued against the Donatistes the Church to be his he sayth expresly that to be ynough also for all other questions Aug. de vnitate Eccl. cap. 18.19 Sufficit nobis c. It is ynough for vs that we haue that Church which is pointed to by most manifest testimonies of the Holy and Canonicall Scriptures And touching the very question it selfe of the Church againe what doe you alleage out of him what you gather of his saying I sée Ar. 13.14 for you say By this Augustine declareth first that Heretikes must be confuted onely by the Scriptures and secondly that neither Councels Succession of Bishops Vniuersalitie Myracles Visions Dreames nor reuelations are the notes to trie the Catholike Church but onely the Scriptures So you gather but he sayth not so Au. de vni Eccl. ca. 16. Remoueantur omnes moratoriae tergiuersationes sayth he Away with all dilatorie drawinges backe such as is Quicquid de peccatis hominum obijcitur all that the Donatist Bishop obiecteth of certeine mens crimes Also when he saith for his Church Verum est quia hoc ego dico It is true because I say this or because this said that felowbishop or those felowbishops of mine or those Bishops in their Councels or Clarkes or Lay of oures aut ideo verum est or therefore it is true because such and such meruailes did Donatus who was as it were their Luther or Pontius as it were their Caluine or any other or because men do pray at the memories of our departed be hard or because this and that there doeth happen or because such a brother of ours or such a sister of ours sawe such a vision walâ—ng or dreamed such a dreame sleeping Remoueantur ista Awaye with these dilatories and let them shew their Church in the Canonicall authoritie of the Holy books Nec â—ta vt ea colligant c. Neither so as to gather rehearse those places which are obscure or ambiguous or figuratiue that euery man maye interpret them as he list after his owne sense But bring you forth some place so manifest that it needeth no interpreter Ar. 13. Pur. 333. Because neither we do say that men ought to beleeue vs that we are in the Church for that that the Church which we holde hath bene commended by Optatus of Mileuis or by Ambrose of Milayne as now by Fisher of Rochester or Hosius of Warmes or by other inumerable Bishops of our communion or because she hath ben set forth by Councelles of our fellowbishopps For these were priuate to S. Augustines side as those other Bishopps and Councelles were priuate to the Donatistes side So are they not now but both sides we and you do claime them And therfore now better cause to alleage them euen also in the question of the Church then was in S. Augustines time how be it then also he might well haue alleaged them although in that booke he did not and sayth he did not For in them was veritas authoritatis trueth of authoritie as here aboue pag. 179. he sayd to the Arrian and no lesse also to the Donatistes It followeth on further as you also alleage Aut quia per totum orbem Moracles and visions or Because ouer all the world in the Holy places that our communion doth frequent so great Miracles partely of