Enoch and the rest of the holy fathers did beléeue before the floud we beléeue as Abraham Isaack Iaacob did beléeue the other godly patriarkes before the time of Christ we beléeue as the blessed Apostles of our Lord other holy teachers in the Church a loÌ„g time after theÌ„ did But you Papists when you speake of the forefathers let passe all these which are the most auncient and most principall draw vs to a few of your owne which haue bene within these seuen or eight hundred yeares in which time religion hath bene corrupted and the great Antichrist for the most part of this time hath preuailed If we cannot proue our faith to be the faith of Abraham let it be counted new and let vs be taken for heretickes Pa. If this were true that you beleeue as the holy fathers before the flouâ—d as the Patriarkes after the floud as the Apostles of Christ then doubtlesse you are in the right way but these are but words how will ye proue this we say still you are heretickes and fallen away from the faith of these and we proue it by this reason because ye are fallen away from the faith of those forefathers which succeeded these For the fathers of our Church are the successors of the Apostles therefore you being fallen from them are fallen from the Apostles Pro. Then ye graunt that those haue the truth on their side which beléeue as the Apostles Prophets Patriarches did It remaineth only in tryall which of vs hold that faith which they did We proue that we do because we acknowledge nothing but the holy doctrine of the Bible vpoÌ„ which their faith was grounded You bring for your proofe the doctrine successioÌ„ of some meÌ„ for certaine hundred yeares Let vs now sée who bringeth the best and surest proofe say what ye can to weaken ours then I wil shew that the fathers which you boast of from whom we separate our selues are no successors of the Apostles and therefore in departing from them we depart not from the Apostles whose doctrine we hold Pa. What are ye the better to say ye bring the Scriptures and ye beleeue nothing but the Scriptures and ye will be tried by the Scriptures By this you proue that you beleeue as the Apostles and Prophets did your reason is not good because the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood who shall iudge which is the true sense and meaning of them who shall tell ye how the Apostles and forefathers did vnderstand them Shall not the Church If ye may take them after your owne interpretation then ye will do well enough but the Church which we are is to interprete them and therefore we do still condemne you and all other heretikes although ye alleadge the Scriptures neuer so much because you do but abuse them as the diuell did when he tempted Christ Therfore ye must bring better reason then this to proue that ye hold the ancient Catholike faith for this doth not proue it Pro. Oh what a trim shift is this here is as pretie a iugling cast as euer the diuell could play to bleare the eyes of the simple and vnskilfull to make them beleeue that the scriptures are nothing without the interpretation of the Church of Rome Each man must light his candle there or els he shall go in the dark This is one of the most subtill and craftie cauils which you Papistes can make and one of the strongest pillers which your kingdome is built vpon For when ye cannot denie but that the Scriptures doe speake for vs then ye flie to this that they are hard to be vnderstood ye wold make vs beleeue that when they speake of one thing they meane another when they speake of good they meane euill when they set forth heauen they meane hell Pa. It is like you will answere truth when ye charge vs with so great and manifest a lie where can ye shew that euer any of our side hath spoken or written that when the scripture speaketh of one thing it meaneth another Pro. Is that such a lie I pray you what is the cause why ye tel vs the scriptures are hard when they speake so fully so plainely and plentifully and with such consent and agreement in those things which are the principles of our faith if it be not that when they speake of one thing they meane another Wherefore shold we not vnderstand what God saith vnto vs if he deale simply Wherfore did the Lord speake by his Prophetes and Apostles to the simple common people if they could not vnderstand what he said I cannot tell what other reason ye can shew why they should be so darke as you make them Pa. Are ye then in good sadnesse of this mind that the scriptures are not hard to be vnderstood and are they not vncertaine because they may be expounded diuerse wayes Pro. I do not deny 2. Pet. 3â— but that as S. Peter saith There be some things hard to be vnderstood which the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert as they do other scriptures to their owne destruction I confesse with the authour of the Epistle to the Hebrues Heb. 5. That there are things hard to bee vnderstood because we be dull of hearing Also the iust iudgement of God vpon the wickednesse of men as it is set forth by the Prophet Isaiah Isa 5. in hardning their harts blinding their eyes that in hearing they may heare and not vnderstand in séeing they may see and not perceiue and also in causing the word of God to be vnto them as a sealed booke sa 29 I. doth make the Scriptures hard to bee vnderstood Now although they be hard also in some sort euen to the godly and diligent man those whom God doth teach yet they are not hard as you make them that is to say that in no wise they may be vnderstood or haue any certainty in them but by the interpretation of the Pope and his cleargie For that is most blasphemously to take away the light from the most pure and cleare word of God This therefore is but diuellish craft by which ye would driue vs from Gods word which standeth sure on our side and maketh flat against you The Scriptures can be expounded rightly but one way hauing but one sense Pa. That which you do alleadge out of Saint Peter doth make for vs where he saith That the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert not only those hard things but also all other Scriptures to their distruction 2. Pet. 1. Likewise the same Apostle saith That no Scripture is of priuate interpretation S. Paul saith 1. Tim. 3. That the Church is the pillar ground of truth Then I reason thus the vnlearned do peruert the scriptures therefore they are not to deale with them no priuate person is to interprete the Scriptures therefore none but the Church or those which haue the authority in the Church and because the
of all men who can complaine iustly when it is spoken of The Lord put into the hart of our gouernours to redresse it The same Lord heape his graces vpon your Lordship with increase of honor in his world and euerlasting life in the world to come Amen Your Honours most humble to command GEORGE GIFFORD A Contention betweene a Papist and a Professor of the Gospell PAPIST I Am glad to see you well Sir for old acquaintance sake which I would be content to renew againe Pro. I am glad also that you are in health I saw you not a great while before now Pa. I pray ye what newes were ye at London lately What is become of the Catholikes I heare there hath bene great disputation in the Tower Pro. There hath béene disputation indeed by reason of a proude challenge which was made Pa. Ye might terme it a proude challenge if he had not bene able to make his part good But I heare he behaued himselfe very learnedly and with great victorie against all which were set vppon him Pro. Ye haue heard moe lies then that but I perceiue ye are a Papist or at the least a fauourer of Papists for they bragge that he did excellently although in very déede he was there shewed to be but an obstinate cauiller Pa. Wherefore should ye call me Papist I am obedient to the lawes and do not refuse to go to the Church Pro. Then it seemeth you are a Church Papist Pa. A Church Papist what meane you by that Pro. Do you not know I will tell ye there are Papists which wil not come at the Church and there are Papists which can kéepe their conscience to themselues and yet go to Church of this latter sort it seemeth you are because ye go to the Church Pa. How can you tell what is in mens consciences you take vpon ye to iudge very deeply Pro. Nay there needeth no déepe iudgement they are so shallow that a man may easily sound them to the bottome Although the Church wals be thicke yet a man may espie them by some creuise Pa. Whereby do you know them so easily I pray by what notes can ye discerne them Pro. Some of them will not sticke to maintaine such popish opinions as they know there is no great danger of law for The simple sort which can no skill of doctrine speake of the mery world when there was lesse preaching and when all things were so cheape that they might haue xx egs for a penny Other there be which neuer name Papists but Catholikes if ye reason with them they do it but for arguments sake not that they say so but the Catholikes say so Another sort there are those are as pestilent as can bee for to the ende they may do the greater mischiefe they are Protestants but yet if any Preacher do zealously beate downe Popery he doth reaile he is cholerike hee is vncharitable and so they deuise all meanes possible to disturbe him these and suchlike are the notes to discerne a Church Papist Pa. You call them zealous Preachers they be very scismatikes and seduce the people with false doctrine and therfore such as be wise quiet and stayed men cannot abide them Pro. I see well that you are not of those which to it but for Arguments sake you will not shew what the Catholikes say but what your self saith Had ye not great cause to be offended when I said ye were a Papist Pa. I thinke plaine dealing is best in very deed I take ye to be heretikes I am a Catholike Pro. You take vs to be heretikes but in very deede I am able to proue that you are foule and rancke heretikes your selues and far from true Catholikes Pa. Ye do vs great wrong to call vs heretikes for we hold and bee of the Catholicke Church which hath euer condemned all heretikes If Catholikes be heretikes then are we also heretikes but this latter belongeth to you and all other which forsake the truth Pro. Nay those which hold the Catholike faith are of this Catholike Church and the doctrine of the Catholike faith we hold which hath alwaies condemned heretikes and therfore ye do vs as great wrong in calling vs heretikes as the Pharisies and Sadduces did vnto Saint Paule when they counted him so Act. 24.14 You haue forsaken the true doctrine of the old Catholike faith and therefore ye are no Catholikes Pa. We are they which hold the auncient Catholike faith yours is new doctrine we beleeue as all our forefathers did If your doctrine be true then all our forefathers were damned for they alwayes beleeued contrary to that which you beleeue Pro. The maner of you Papistes is to affirme things very strongly but when ye shold proue them then are ye exceeding weake and can bring forth naught but poore stuffe Ye are as able to proue these things which ye affirme as I am to remoue mountaines Pa. We may say so of you more rightly because you affirme much and proue litle I am able for to make good all that which I haue spoken Pro. Are you content to make triall who bring strongest proues if ye be let me heare how ye can disproue our faith and afterward I will show what I haue to disproue yours so it shall be séene which hold the Catholike faith and which be heretickes Pa. I am very well content tell me what I shall begin withall Pro. Begin with those things which ye affirmed euen now proue that our doctrine is new that you beleeue as all the forefathers did that our doctrine doth condemne all our forefathers and euery wise man will graunt that yours is the Catholike faith if ye cannot proue this then confesse that your doctrine is come from the father of lies and not from the God of truth For there is but one truth which is Gods word all other doctrines are of the diuell Pa. If that faith which you beleeue and doctrine which you professe be not new then was it beleeued and knowne in the daies of our forefathers but it was not heard of in their daies neither was it knowne vntill such time as Luther did set it abroach Therefore the proudest heretike of ye all shall neuer be able to shew that it is of antiquitie Pro. Here are ruffling words the proudest heretike of thē al is not proud enough to deale with you but indeede if your proud conceipt were no sturdier then your argument yee might easily be dealt withall I confesse your Maior or first proposition of your argument to be true which is this if the doctrine which you professe be not new then was it beleeued in the daies of our forefathers But your second which is this that our faith doctrine was not heard of in the dayes of the forefathers vntill Luther did set it abroch is most false for our doctrine is the holy word of God deliuered to the Church by the Apostles Prophets We beléeue as Adam Seth
Church is the pillar of truth whosoeuer doth separate himselfe from the Church doth depart from the truth And by this we do still proue that you are all heretickes and scismatikes and do peruert the scriptures because you take them not as the Church doth expound them The scriptures seeme to be on your side but they are not they seeme to be against vs but they are not Pro. This is very sound stuffe you make three strong conclusions out of three sentences of the scriptures In the first ye reason thus the vnlearned do peruert the scriptures therefore none can vnderstand the scriptures but the learned by this your meaning is to shut out all the layitie as you call them from iudging of doctrine and to allow vnderstanding of the scriptures to none but the learned that is the Clergie of Rome for that we shal haue by and by But ye ouershoote your selfe much when ye thinke that Saint Peter by vnlearned men doth meane such as haue not bin brought vp in schoole learning and so put that difference betweene cleargie and layitie No he counteth all those learned which are taught of God both of the common sort of people and other all those are vnlearned which are not taught of God although otherwise they abound in all knowledge of tongues and arts or whatsoeuer Such as haue learned Christ Iesus and him crucified and so are become new creatures in Christ they are learned Col. 2. For in him are all the treasures of wisdome and knowledge He that hath not learned Christ he is vnlearned If he be not new borne but as S. Iohn saith 1. Iohn 3. cōmitteth sin he hath not séene him nor knowne him although otherwise he be neuer so studied a mā in the scriptures Math. 11. For this cause we see that the poore Publicanes are called the children of wisedome because they imbraced the doctrine of Christ when the great Doctors the Scribes and Pharisies were starke blind They sayd none followed Christ but the multitude which knew not the law Iohn 7. which were accursed when as indeede they were blind and accursed themselues so fareth it now with the Pope and his shauelings they say the people cannot vnderstand the scriptures when themselues do not The next sentence vppon which you conclude is out of Peter also where hee saith No scripture is of priuate interpretation From hence you fetch an inuincible argument to proue that none of vs may interprete but Rome onely No priuate man is to interprete the scriptures because no scripture is of priuate interpretation all those which are not of the Popish Cleargie or which haue not authority in the Church from the Pope or do not expound as the Church are priuate men therfore none of those are to interprete the scriptures Here the Pope like a greedy cormorant will haue all to himselfe But ye deale deceiptfully or at the least vnskilfully with the text which ye alleadge for Saint Peter when he saith priuate doth not speake it to make this difference betweene men as though for interpreting the scriptures some shold haue authority some should be priuate but he setteth men against God calling that priuate which is of man For he doth reason thus the scripture was not giuen by the will of man but by the spirite of God therefore the interpretation thereof must bee of God men must not bring that which is their owne If the interpretation be by the spirit then is it not priuate if it be out of mans braine although it should be the Pope al his Cardinals yea ten thousand Popes it is still priuate after the sense in which S. Peter doth call priuate For let any skilful man in the greeke tongue looke vpon the word which is idias epiluseos and he will confesse that it doth signifie that which is ones owne Then the sense is plaine and it is also manifest how peeuishly you peruert the word of God What manner of argument is this a man may not in the interpreting of the Scriptures bring that which is his owne therfore none may interprete them but the Church of Rome Your last reason is not worth answering for although it is most true that the Church is the pillar of truth that those are voyd of truth which abide not in the Church yet this is as false that the Pope his company are the Church of Christ as the other is true and therefore we are no heretikes nor Schismatikes for departing from you which are a den of theeues which haue conspired against the truth Pa. Two grosse things and strange I gather out of your words the one that you would haue the people of themselues to iudge of doctrine the other ye will haue no other interpreter of the sense of the Scriptures but the Spirit I pray ye I am an vnlearned man would faine know which is the truth I heare you alleadge the scriptures in one sense and you say you haue the spirit our men alleadge them in another sense and say they haue the spirit the Anabaptists they haue the spirite the Arrians they interprete by the spirit what shal I do here is euery man hath the spirit yet euery one goeth a contrary way It is manifest therefore that heere needeth a more certaine thing to leane vnto or else the simple man cannot tell which way to turne him What shall he do now but looke how the Church beleeueth and rest in that For he must haue that which may teach him to know which of all these hath the true spirit or else he is neuer the neerer Pro. Ye find two grosse things in my words one of them is that I say the people can iudge of doctrine when it is preached What doth our Sauior Christ meane when he saith Iohn 10. My sheep heare my voyce a stranger they wil not heare they flie frō strangers Cā they know the voice of the true shepheard from the false can they not discerne doctrine The other is that I will haue none other interpreter of the sense of the scriptures but the spirit 1. Cor. 2. S. Paul saith the eare hath not heard nor the eye hath not seene neither came into mans hart the things which God hath prepared for them that loue him but God hath reuealed them vnto vs by his spirite for the spirite searcheth all things yea the deepe things of God And the great doubt which you put forth in the simple man which would faine vnderstand the truth and which of all those foure that ye named haue the spirit I answer that if he himselfe haue not the spirite of God to teach him he shall not be able to iudge but if the spirite do teach him then can he find it for the spirite which doth teach the one to vtter the doctrine which is his doth teach the other to know that doctrine and in them consenteth vnto it being his owne and therefore
most corrupt either in maners or withstanding the true Prophets yet they remayned still the Church and the seruice and worship in the Temple was not to be despised if any did they were apostats This ye confirme by such as Christ hauing cleansed he sendeth to offer to the priests then by a perpetual rule which Christ gaue dic ecclesiae tel the Church Hereupō ye cōclude again that we be heretikes because we haue forsakē the Church of Rome where ye tel vs that the abuses shold not driue vs to do so we must not forsake our mother for some deformity and want of beauty I wil answer ye that this argument may easily be denied when you say those which did forsake the worship in the Temple were Apostats therefore those which forsake the Church of Rome are heretickes and Apostats for to make this hold you must first proue that God hath tied his religion now to Rome as he had then to the Temple and that he hath chosen Rome as he then chose mount Sion which ye shall neuer be able to do because it is most false And then ye must proue that your worship which you maintaine is that which God hath commanded and then doubtlesse hee that shall depart from that is an heretike For if any did depart from worshipping in the Temple hee was not an apostat for departing from wicked Priests but for refusing that which God had appointed him to do We depart not but from a den of theeues and from an heape of damnable errors and not from that which God hath commanded so Christ sendeth the Leapers which he had clensed to fulfill the law of God commanded by Moses which was to be done to be done no where but in the Temple where the Priests bare the sway The other reason which ye bring as a perpetuall rule of Christ dic ecclesiae tell the Church is of no value for although the rule be perpetual doth it therfore follow that it can alwayes bee put in practise Hath Christ by that rule where he saith if thy brother offend against thee reproue him if that do not serue take one or two with thee if he will not heare them tell the Church c. set downe that there shall be euer a true and visible Church which will correct the offenders How say ye to the Church of Israel in the dayes of the Prophet Elias 1. King 19. when he complained to God that they had killed his Prophets digged downe his Altars and that he only was left they sought his life God made him answere that he had a Church among them I haue left vnto me seuen thousand in Israel c. which Elias did not sée Where was Dic ecclesiae now become Must they bring their Dic ecclesiae to those which are fallen away from God will excōmunicate the children of God Iohn 9. as the Pharisies did the blind man Did he euer come vnto them to be absolued When your diuellish sinagogue do excommunicate vs we be the nigher vnto Christ It is true which ye say that the true Church must not be forsaken for certaine abuses but if the abuses be such as vtterly destroy the faith as yours are then is it no longer the Church of Christ but a company of wicked hell hounds and therefore ye do but loose your labour when you exhort vs to rerurne to your Church which is no mother of ours but she is the whore of Babylon which hath filled the earth with her fornications There are none blessed vnlesse they depart from her her wayes are the wayes of damnation Reuel 18. come out of Babylon sayth the Angell of our God Pa. I could answer ye againe with words but so I should but spend time neither doe I like of long circumstances without matter which is the fashion of you heretikes when ye haue no sound reasons then to make a shew of speech and fall to rayling Pro. You cannot abide words without matter neither can your meeke spirite tell which way to fall to rayling but let any indifferent man reade ouer the bookes which your great Catholike Doctors set forth and he will confesse that in many words there will be found little matter Take away your vntruthes slaunders and spitefull raylings there will be but a little left behind If we speake of you that which the Scriptures pronounce against you by and by we rayle Did Iohn Baptist rayle when he called the Pharisies Math. 3. The generation of Vipers But seeing ye ione matter let vs see it to proue our doctrine to be new ye must bring stronger reasons then that the Church of Rome for certaine hundred yeares hath not allowed it there is no point of our faith but it is farre more auncient then your popish decrees your bauld and doltish shift to driue vs onely to your exposition of the Scriptures is not worth a straw Gods holy spirit hath bestowed great gifts vpon his Church in these last dayes Proceed with your matter Pa. Nay you shall not so slylie conuey your selfe ye make smal account of the interpretation of the Church of Rome which agreeth with all the holy Doctors and Teachers euen from the time of the Apostles Your exposition of the word began of late in Germany and therefore is not to be taken for Catholike Pro. Seeing ye must needes lie it is good to lie for somewhat all holy Doctors and Teachers from the Apostles are on your side this all doth signifie none For the very truth is as euery man that can reade their writings may see that they be except in a very few points all against ye sauing such holy diuels as within these latter times haue bene the Popes owne Doctors Our exposition is the same which the godly fathers before Antichrist had gotten the vpper seate in the Temple did vse therefore Catholike although your mother disallow it Pa. Nay heretickes be liers we say the truth when we do chalenge the auncient Doctors and Fathers to be on our side we succeede them we honour loue and commend them more then you we pray for their helpe you seeke to deface and pull downe all remembraunce of them let all the world be iudge whose side they are like to be of ours or yours when we haue them in so great and high estimation and you set so light by them Can we bee fallen from them as you say being so readie to doe them all the homage we can our hearts do witnesse that we do it in simplicity Moreouer all your matter is not worth a straw which ye haue brought out of the Church of the Iewes ye haue shewed that in Israel Elias could see no Church that in the Temple the Priests and false Prophets did conspire against the true messengers of the Lord. This were somewhat if you could shew it in our Church vnto which Christ hath made his promise neuer to forsake it but to giue it his spirite
to the worlds ende Your matter is too weake to ouerthrow so great and manifest truth Pro. It is indeed a certaine and sure thing that heretikes will lie and therefore you Papists whose Religion is a very hotch potch dunghill of all grosse heresies will not sticke at that But here is a great reason brought to proue that the holy Saints of God are on your side and not on ours The holy Fathers are like as all men may iudge to be on their side which succeede them which do most loue them honour them and commend them but therein who knoweth not that ye go beyond vs which ye accuse to deface their honor And therefore they be on your side and must néedes take you to be their speciall friends Indeede we confesse that you do giue that honour to the Saints which we deny them and therefore ye seeme to loue them more then we But when the matter cōmeth to the due triall euery man shall easily perceiue that it doth not therefore follow that they be on your side because it is no true loue nor right honor which ye giue vnto them nor such indeed as they can in any wise accept of for when as all their delight and ioy was that God alone should be worshipped and haue all his whole honor reserued to himselfe how can they take it well at your hands when ye play the arrant théeues and most villanously robbe God to giue vnto them Are there any good mē heare in earth which would bee content to see theeues spoyle other mens goods and to bring the same to them if not how should the blessed Virgin the holy Apostles other Saints of God count those sacrilegious wretches to be their friends which rob and spoyle God of his honor and thrust Christ from his office to bestow vpon them No those honor them which follow their steps in giuing all honor to God they loued and held the truth which was dearer to them then their liues and therefore are on their side which walke in the truth Moreouer your loue and honour which you giue and bestow vpon them is euen such as the wicked Apostates among the Iewes did bestow vpon the holy Prophets of God Thus Christ speaketh Woe be vnto you Scribes Pharisies Math. 23. ye Hypocrites because you build the Sepulchers of the Prophets garnish the Tombes of the righteous and ye say if we had bene in the dayes of our Fathers we would not haue bene partakers with them in the bloud of the Prophets Will you say that these did loue the Prophets which did so much hate Christ did they honour the Prophets and dishonour Christ Euen such are you ye honor the holy Saints of old but if they were aliue on earth ye would murder them In the next place you make that to be nothing which I alleadge concerning the Church of the Iewes ye require that I should shew some such thing in your Church What say ye to this 2. Thes 2. that S. Paule saith there should be a falling away the man of sinne should be set vp Reuel 13. And when Saint Iohn speaking of the same apostasie saith that all the world wondered and followed the beast And againe in the same Chapter he sayth that whosoeuer would not worship the Image of the beast they should be killed Reuel 13. and he caused all both small and great rich and poore bond and free to receiue a make in their right hand or in their forehead And that none might buy or sell but he which hath the marke or the name of the beast or the number of his name Ye wil not deny also but that which Saint Iohn speaketh of the woman persecuted by the Dragon Reuel 12. is meant of the Church for the place doth plainely interprete it selfe when he saith in the last verse of the Chapter That the Dragon was wrath and went and made warre against the remnant of her seede which keepe the commandements of God and haue the testimony of Iesus Behold how he sheweth there that this Church should be nourished in the wildernesse for a time times and halfe a time from the presence of the Dragon Where was then the visible Church Where was now dic ecclesiae tell the Church if ye will vnderstand it so fully Pa. Must those things needs be expounded against vs Can it not be taken but against the Church of Rome Pro. That Prophesie of S. Paule of the apostasie by the man of sinne and the description of the kingdome of Antichrist by S Iohn in the Reuelation cannot with any shew be turned vppon any other saue the Pope and his Cleargie But I will come vnto this thing more particularly afterward Ye cannot now deny but that there might be and was so great decay of truth by Antichrist that a man could not alwayes see a visible gouernement of the Church séeing Antichrist was the head and al things were done at his will appointment Pa. You would make the world beleeue what you list but let them beleeue ye that will It is a like matter that God wold forsake the Church so many hundred yeares suffer all our forefathers which were better then we to be deceiued and to perish No no I would we were like them they were wiser then we are It is maruell that they should be so farre wide and no man to reproue them There is no wise man but he will take it to be the more surer way to cleaue to so many godly and wise forefathers and good Saints then to take part with a few scismatikes and new fangled rash heads which will not sticke to condemne and ouerthrow all good orders be they neuer so ancient Oh this corrupt age whither will it tend at the last Pro. What we go about or would make the world beléeue God himselfe is both witnesse and Iudge to him and to his holy truth we appeale It is not like that God would forsake his Church so many hundred yeares no hee neuer forsooke it one houre no not euen when it seemed to be quite destroyed and wasted by Antichrist He neuer suffered all our forefathers to be seduced and to perish neither did he euer suffer any one of our godly forefathers to perish he forsooke Antichrist and his brood as a den of theeues which forsooke him he forsooke all those which receiued not the loue of the truth that they might be saued and sent them strong delusions to beleeue lyes that so they might be damned as S. Paule setteth it forth 2. Thes 2. This was neither all the forefathers nor yet so many hundred yeres as you seeme to note for the most part of your Antichristian religion hath not as yet seene sixe hundred Sommers And in those times there were euer some which cried out of your corrupt doctrine and wicked maners He is the right wise man which doth not leaue to nor depend vpon the multitude of men
certaintie to trie the trée and to know it by the fruite And hath the spirit which made them and preserueth them so lost his power and are his qualities and operations so weake that he cannot bée discerned from the spirit of the diuell Are his fruites such as they cannot be discerned from the rotten fruites of the flesh and the workes of darknes Ephes 1. Rom. 8. Saint Paul saith that we are sealed with the holy spirit of promise he willeth mē to walke after the spirit not after the flesh he setteth forth the fruites of the flesh Galath 5. and the fruites of the spirit Rom. 8. He saith that this spirit doth beare witnesse vnto our spirit that we are the sonnes of God This should bee but a weake witnesse if wee should not bée able to know whether we haue him or not But perhaps all these scriptures many other which I could cite haue not light enough in them for your blind eyes and therefore I will shew ye the thing more fully thus A man heareth the word of God preached 1. Cor. 12. it striketh his heart and conuerteth him wheras before he was as blind as a béetle now he séeth the light whereas before he had no loue to the holy word of God now his hart is inflamed with zeale and delight in it whereas before his care was of this world couetousnes did cause him gréedily to séeke vnlawfull gaine now his mind is bent vpon heauenly things and after them he séeketh whereas before he was full of adulteries riot wantonnes vanity now his wicked affections are tamed and altered he much abhorreth such filthines and whereas before he could neuer cease doing euill he was neuer at ease but when he delighted himselfe in some vngodlinesse now he is a man quite changed he doth much lament and sorrow that euer he was so wicked to despise God all his ioy is now to doe good workes the feare of God is before his eyes now féeling this wonderfull chaunge in himselfe that he is new borne to God that he is a new creature he knoweth right well that he is lead by the holy spirit of GOD and that he hath wrought this new worke in him Pa. It seemeth by your talke that such as haue receiued the spirit are so sure that they cannot be deceiued To what purpose then was Saint Paul so carefull to warne the true Christians to take heede yea we may see that there were diuers of them seduced This is quite contrarie to that certaintie which you doe speake of Pro. There is no cōtrariety in these things for if any were seduced and drawne away frō the truth vnto destruction it is most certaine they were neuer sealed with the spirit but had some small taste He laboureth with the other to haue them grow strong to bee grounded and rooted in the trueth not to bée as children carried away with euery blast of vaine doctrine for the blessed Apostle Saint Peter describing such false Teachers as you 2. Pet. 2. sheweth that they shall beguile vnstable soules Such therefore as will not bee seduced neither by you nor any other heretikes must abound in knowledge and grace for so wee are willed If the wisedome of the holy Ghost be in vs and hath inlightened vs the subtiltie of the diuell and the power of darknesse shall not ouercome vs the power of the holy Ghost is greater then the power of Satan and for this cause we are sure of victorie If this were not we could haue but small comfort we should he but in woe case It is not your greasie pope which could helpe vs which himselfe is ouercome of the diuell and obeyeth his will Pa. Well well for this matter I say still that your doctrine is new that ye condemne all our forefathers and whereas you would seeme to proue that it is the ancient Catholike faith because ye proue it by the Scriptures I say you proue nothing for the Scriptures can proue nothing without the interpretation of the Church you can not interprete neither can ye iudge but the great shepheard whose voyce ye should heare must giue the sense therefore I say still that ye be heretikes all the packe of yee and but that I spare ye I could bite ye a little better I am sorie ye bee so wilfull Pro. When ye haue spent all your powder then yée retire backe againe into your castle which is so sure as you suppose that nothing can batter the walles but when a man doth view them well he shall finde them to be but painted clothes For in very déed ye stand obstinately and frowardly vpon certaine bare affirmations And when a man hath neuer so strongly confuted and disproued them yet ye alleadge them still But let this go and come to the rest Ye say ye could but that ye spare me or els that ye are musled bite me a little better I feare not your teeth for I trust your biting will not ranckle not because they bée not venime but because I am so well defensed that ye cannot fasten your téeth vpon me But spare not powre out all your poyson and doe your worst Pa. Yee doe but gibe and mocke at those things which I speake it is euen according to your profession yee are deriders of good things and of the true Catholike faith take heede it is better for ye to repent and to turne home againe to the holy Church which ye haue and doe dishonour I said that I did spare ye and it shall appeare now for I will touch ye a little neerer and yet but with the trueth not with all that I might say neither for it were infinite to rehearse all your abominable waies which ye walke in and are to bee charged withal A little shall suffice I say by your wicked and carnall doctrine euen your new Gospell ye teach all loosenes and licentious libertie to the flesh As for example ye denie the merits of good workes ye teach that men are iustified by faith without good deeds ye teach Election and Predestination and denie freewill and so by this meanes the people are brought to haue no care of good workes but to liue as they lust for thus it doth follow if we be iustified by faith alone what neede we care for good workes If we bee chosen and predestinate and haue no freewill left in vs to chuse or refuse then let God alone wee cannot further nor hinder our selues what should wee eare let vs then set cocke a hoope and take our pleasure while we be here this is your sweet doctrine thus ye teach Pro. I néede not maruell to heare ye threaten to bite me whē ye dare open your mouth to blaspheme the Lord God and to barke like a most filthie and prophane dogge against the most glorious Gospell of Christ Which howsoeuer ye belie it doth teach all heauenly puritie and care of good workes They bée conclusions of your owne
framing which neither wee teach neither doe they follow of that doctrine which wée deliuer The diuell and the flesh reason thus God hath chosen men they haue no power of themselues they cannot deserue or merite by their good déedes but are iustified by faith alone in the merits of Christ therefore let them care for no well doing but walke after the carnall desires and lusts of the flesh what should they care they can neither further nor hinder themselues But the holy spirit of God concludeth thus God chose vs when wée were his enemies of his owne good will when wée were not able so much as to thinke a good thought therefore wee are bound to yéeld all praise and honour vnto him He hath of his infinite loue giuen vs his deare and onely be gotten sonne for to redéeme vs and to iustifie vs therefore we ought to shew our selues louing and kinde vnto him againe to serue honour and obey him in all true obedience and holy conuersation What should I stand to recite testimonies of Scripture to proue these conclusions and to ouerthrow yours when as euery poore man which hath any delight in the sacred Bible is able for to sée them They bee worse then bruite beasts which haue not learned this out of the word that God hath chosen his people hath by his frée grace redéemed and iustified them to the end they may be holy zealous of good workes although not to merit withall which they cannot yet to glorifie GOD as Christ saith Let your light so shine before mē Matth. 5 that they may sée your good workes glorifie your father which is in heauen Likewise hée saith Herein is my father glorified Iohn 15. that yée grow and bring forth much fruite We teach with S. Iohn 1. Iohn 3. he that worketh righteousnesse is borne of God he that committeth sinne is of the diuell We teach with Christ Iohn 8. that hée that committeth sin is the seruant of sin We teach with Saint Paul Rom. 8. that those which are in Christ walke not after the flesh but after the spirit We teach with S. Iames Iames 2. that that faith which is without good works is dead therefore cānot iustifie saue a man It is not faith but a dead picture and shew of faith which the diuels haue The true faith cannot bee without good workes So that wee teach a necessitie of good workes not to merit or to iustifie but to shew foorth the fruites of our calling Pap. Ye say that ye doe not teach libertie to the flesh nor giue men leaue to liue as they will nor that your doctrine doth not destroy good deedes but shall wee giue more credite to your words or to the successe and fruites which we see to follow of your doctrine He that will rightlie trie what your doctrine is let him looke what fruites it doth bring forth What better and more sure triall can a man require then this I trow ye will not refuse to bee tried by this rule Then let vs come vnto it your holy doctrine how commeth it to passe that it doth bring forth so many sowre fruites Was there euer more sinne committed VVhat fowle wickednesse is it which doth not flow in your streetes You may compare with the Sodomites for your gluttonies wantonnesse whoredomes pride couetousnesse and such like VVhat good thing can a man see in your Clergie which should giue good example to others and whose pure conuersation should be a paterne for other to follow How many of them are there which are men voide of all learning and grace who hauing spent their time lewdly and consumed their substance when they cannot tell how to liue step into the ministerie or at the least coueting to liue at ease and shunning to worke being scarce sit for the plow much lesse for the pulpit yet are admitted by your heauenly Gospell to be masters in Israel How many wanton fleshly adulterers are there among them How couetous how worldly how ambitious are your learned men Doe not all men see how they preach and take on vntill such time as they be loden with liuings and are got vp as high as they can and then as though they had wonne the vpshot they put vp their arrowes into their quiuer and vnbend their bowes they neede not any further to trouble themselues But what neede I speake when the matter it selfe doth as it were make open proclamation Your common people seeing they haue no better examples are giuen ouer to all kinde of naughtinesse If ye can proue this to be holesome doctrine which doth bring forth and allow such things as these I will be no longer a Catholike Pro. If I should answere ye onely with this that your euill fruits do farre passe ours although it were most easie to be proued yet should I make but a slender answere because that in ouerthrowing you we should also cōdemne our selues For this I must néeds confesse with yee that the doctrine which doth bring forth euill fruites cannot bée good And a good triall I doe confesse of the doctrine to be in the good fruits which it doth bring forth When ye charge vs that all abominable sins do flow in our stréetes we do also with great griefe acknowledge it And this farre I allow your sayings but whē ye ascribe these things to our doctrine as the fruites which it doth bring forth there I doe disallow ye as a blasphemer of God and his most pure trueth For it is not because our doctrine doth allow much lesse bréede such euils that they bee among vs but because our doctrine which is the holy word of God is of the most men despised and not knowne The Lord by sundry of his prophets doth complaine of the Iewes and accuseth them to bée worse then the heathen was therefore the law and doctrine which he had giuen them to bée blamed No they refused to walke in his ordinances and so doe the people at this day The Lord bée blessed there are a number although farre the lesse number which lie as scattered cornes in a great heape of chasse which haue imbraced the holy doctrine of the Lord and doe expresse it in their liues do euery day mourne for the abominations of Hierusalem and earnestly doe desire that the Lorde would purge it If either our doctrine did allowe such abuses or those which doe sincerely imbrace it walke in them then your wordes which yée vtter might haue some weight in them but séeing it is otherwise ye remaine still with the rest of your companions a wicked blasphemer of the holie word of God As for that which ye vtter against our Clergie it maketh nothing at all against vs vnlesse ye could proue that our doctrine doth allow such But ye may sée the contrarie for our Gospell doth allow none but learned Teachers and godly Pastours which expresse the worde in their conuersation those which Saint Paul alloweth
waight of it against ye But let your foolish words passe which deserue no answere and come again to the matter The next cause why such draugh as yours being but the foolish and doltish dreames of men hath such a shew of wisedome and that is the humblenes of minde which appeareth in such holy hypocrites as worship God after their own fantasie They doe so abase themselues and are as méeke and lowly as can be What can a man deuise to be more hūble then a deuout Papist he will doe any thing he is content to bowe downe and to licke vp the dust at the féete of a stock or a stone he doth so abase himselfe that he is content to worship rotten bones yea whatsoeuer the holy father of Rome will lay vpon him he is readie to beare his minde is so humble But this is not humilitie O ye blind asses but pride and haughtinesse of spirit euen against God against whom ye presume and take vpon ye to bee wiser then he because ye refuse the worship which he hath prescribed and think ye can frame a better of your owne This is the humilitie of you Papists in those good intents and deuotion which ye bragge so much of ye are like sturdie Rogues whom a man would take by their patched cloakes to be gentle and lowly when as indéede they be excéeding proude and rebellious against all good lawes The third last reason which S. Paul setteth downe why there is such a shew of wisedome in corrupt religiō is in this clause when he saith Not sparing the bodie for look how men which are proude men are moued with a shew of humilitie so also although they walke after the flesh and the flesh raigneth in them yet they like of mortification after a sort a shew whereof doth appeare in the outward punishing of the flesh which because they are able to attaine vnto they take it to goe for good payment and when they haue pined themselues with hunger for a while whipped themselues or gone barefooted and barelegged they suppose they haue mortified the flesh Alas poore wretches how humble they bée not to spare their bodies to take such paines to serue GOD and yet neuer the better For when their skinne is torne their heart is whole within still and as full of all vncleannesse as it was before These are the things which ye boast of and the Apostle saith They be of no price Colos 1. because they pertaine but to the filling of the flesh The Diuell hath bewitched men after this sort to leade them from the sight of the true mortification of the flesh through the spirit vnto outward things of no value Thus we may vnderstand that all your goodly shew which yee make is nothing worth all your religion is but superstition they do but lose their labour which trauell in it and are so farre off from pleasing God that he doth accurse and abhorre their doings Pa. A man may see what trim shifts you heretikes can make but for my part I am not moued one iot thereby to like of your religion For it cannot be good when there are so many sects among yee which it doth hatch and bring forth For your Gospell doth come into no place but by and by vp starts one and he doth maintaine this heresie another he doth maintaine that heresie and there is such snatching as if a man should shake out a bagge full of errors and euery one catcheth that which doth like him best for such effect doth follow of your preaching in all places If it were of GOD would this come to passe Can errors arise of true doctrine No this were enough to warne all wise men to take heed of ye and to flie farre from ye although there were no more In our religion we are all of one minde and agree together and therefore ours is the trueth All that will be saued must come and agree with vs. Pro. Nothing can moue you to bee of our religion and why Because it cannot be good Nay because it cannot haue your allowance to be good for the holy word of God is so perfectly good which is our whole religion that all the poyson which such venemous beasts as you are able for to vomite vp is not of force to infect it But I doe ye wrong for you shew a great reason why it cannot be good Well I will answere it The reason which ye vse here against vs is that bolt which ye haue taught euery foole to shoote but a very course armour will defend a man from it it giueth but a bumpe and neuer doth pearce but rebound backe againe Neuerthelesse because among you it is estéemed as a sharpe arrow and principall weapon I will take somewhat the more paines not onely to view it my selfe but also to let others sée the power thereof Trueth it is that whatsoeuer is of God or whatsoeuer is good cannot bring foorth that which is euill no more then darknesse can bring foorth light or heate can cause colde for how can any thing bréede that which is of a quite contrary nature to it selfe But say you Wheresoeuer your Gospell commeth there follow sundrie sects and heresies one maintaineth this and another that with sundry diuisions Therfore your Gospell is not of God it is not the trueth Before ye make this conclusion strong and sure ye must proue that as all sorts of errors do spring where the Gospell is preached which is so indéede that in like maner the Gospell is the cause of them and doth bréede them which ye shall neuer be able to doe For as Christ and his Gospell bring peace and yet he saith he came not to send peace Matth. 10. but a sword and to set the father against the sonne and the mother against the daughter and there shall be fiue in one house two against thrée and thrée against two euen so the Gospell is the trueth and setteth forth the doctrine of vnitie and yet wheresoeuer it commeth all kinde of errors spring vp Now euery wise man will confesse that Christ is the author of peace and the strife that ariseth betwéene men is not to be imputed to his doctrine but to the diuell and his seruants which warre and fight against vs because they hate it and séeke to banish it The same diuell is the cause of heresies for to discredite the word of God wheresoeuer it is taught he setteth vp his schoole also and will haue his schollers goe vnder the name of the Gospell For this is one of the readiest waies that can be to bring the word of God into contempt and to make men afraide of it Sée say they how many heresies these men fall into which meddle with the Scriptures were it not much better that there were no such preaching Pa. Doe ye then allow of strife and errors that ye will needes haue them to be companions of your Gospell Pro. If ye can gather that we allow
of the diuell and his ministers ye may also affirme that we allow of these for we ascribe all these to them They bée no companions of our Gospell vnlesse yée take it in this sense that they alway accompanie the same as vtter enemies to ouerthrow and destroy it The holie Scriptures doe testifie 2. Pet. 2. that there shall bée false Prophets false Teachers and Antichrists in the Church to seduce the people 1. Iohn 2. And the experience of all times doth shew the same Phil. 3. 2. Cor. 10. For were not the false Apostles in all places set against Saint Paul and the other Apostles Doe not the bookes and writings of ancient fathers shortly after the Apostles shewe what fowle monsters rose vp in the Church and what horrible errors did vexe the peace therof Were not the right Catholike fathers within short time after the Apostles of Christ merueilously troubled with heretikes and had as it were their hands full in confuting them Doe not their bookes remaine vnto this day in which they doe confute them I wonder greatly how you Papists should bee so shamelesse beasts as not to denie that the Gospell in those former dayes had so manie and so fowle errours springing vp with it and yet not to bée blamed and now so wickedly to blaspheme it when yée sée the same thing come to passe yée might rather beléeue that it is the trueth because ye sée the same successe now which it had of old and how the diuell doth sweate to quench and ouerthrow it Tell me this O ye hounds of hell did the Gospell hatch or bréed the abominable errors of Ebion Cerinthus Saturninus Carpocrates Basilides and such like Did the Gospell bring foorth the diuelish opinions of Arrius Manicheus of others which sprang vp with it If ye shame to say it did why then should ye not now be as much ashamed to charge it with the errors of the Anabaptists Libertines and the Family of Loue and other which are the warriors of the diuell as well as you to fight against the truth As for this that ye say You did all agrée and were of one minde It is very true in this to resist God and his Gospell but otherwise it is false for ye haue a multitude of sects and sundrie orders amongst ye which could not one away with the other Your whole church of Rome is but a schisme and an Apostasie from the Gospell and Church of God and yet among your selues deuided into a great number of sects and schismes For as among the Corinths I hold of Paul saith one I hold of Apollo 1. Cor. 1. saith another the third of Cephas So among you I am of Benedictus order I am of Francis I am of Augustine and a rablement besides both of Monks and Friers and other such vermine These agréed all in this that they acknowledged the Pope and had their confirmation from him as from the fountaine and maine head which sent foorth riuers and streames euery way for he was the head not of vnitie but of all schismes The head indéed of vnitie as they held all of him but of diuision that euery one put holinesse in his order and sought saluation thereby Ephes 4. There is but one God one faith one baptisme one Lord Iesus Christ and therefore but one way to life eternall how many soeuer you haue inuented which indéede are but crooked paths that leade to hell I let passe your dissention in those poynts which among you should bée of the most waightie things Pa. I could shew many horrible things against ye but I see well it is to no purpose a man were euen as good hold his tongue he shall haue answere at your hands with so many flim flammes and toyes I will leaue ye as I found ye seeing I can doe you no good it is but a folly for a man to powre water vpon a stone to make it soft Pro. I doubt not but that you and your fellowes haue so wel profited in the schoole of the father of lyes in which ye haue béen trained vp that yee are able to vtter many horrible things against vs euē as true as those which ye haue vttered alreadie Therefore in very déede yee were better a great deale to holde your tongue then so shamefully to abuse it in blaspheming the glorious Gospell of GOD. The answers which I doe giue are such flim flammes as the word of God doth expresse I thanke God hee hath so opened mine eyes to see his trueth that euen the most craftie iugling of Papists cannot bring mee into any mammering a man ought to stand fast and to be rooted in the doctrine of the Lord that is no hardnes as you estéeme it neither is yours the water of life which yee would powre vpon me but filthie stinking mud which ye haue drawne out of the puddle of Poperie Ye offer mee drinke but not wholesome wine but dregs which ye bring in the golden cup of the whore of Babylon Your cup doth entice many a simple soule to drinke for they doe not suspect that such deadly poyson should be offered in so goodly a cup. I beséech God to giue men the wisedome to looke what is in it before they drinke Pa. What meane ye by this goodly Allegory what is that golden cuppe which ye speake of in which ye say we offer ye poyson and deceiue the simple soules with the gaines of the cup Can ye tell your owne meaning Doe ye not speake that which ye doe not vnderstand your selfe in Pro. Saint Iohn in the Reuelation doth vse this allegory which you so like a dog scoffe at Reue. 17. He painteth out the whore of Babylon with a golden cup in her hand full of abominations with this she hath made drunken those that dwell vpon the earth For as I said before who would suspect that so goodly a cup should be full of poyson But what is this goldē cup say you in which wee offer poyson This is your golden cup the name of the Catholike Church which ye brag of and the name of the forefathers this is a golden cup how can a simple man once suspect any euill to be in this cup Doubtlesse it is onely your cup which deceiueth so many allureth them to drinke and to sucke out euen the dregs of your abominations For ye crie Catholikes Catholikes the Catholike Church the forefathers and in this ye bring in al your trumperie and purchase credit vnto it because the Catholike Church is very honourable and true which name you pretend the ancient fathers of the Catholike Church are very reuerend whom you falsly challenge to be of your side Therefore I say still it is wisedome to looke what is in your cup and not to be hastie to drinke Pa. I tolde ye euen now that although I might say much yet because I see it is to little purpose that I will giue ye ouer Pro. I must
5. but sinners to repentance You say sinfull mē are permitted to deale with the scriptures we answere the more sinful the greater néed they haue to know the scriptures because they must reforme them and cure them other meanes for the sinners there are none Psal 119. Wherewithall saith the Prophet shall a young man clense his waies euen by taking héed thereto according to thy word Ye reason euen as handsomly as if a man should count it vnméet for those to come to the water to wash them which are all myred or if a man should be out of his way in the darke let him haue no light because he is out of his way Matth. 12. O yee wicked Pharisies yée shut vp the kingdome of God before men yée neither enter your selues neither do ye suffer those which would Let thousand thousands and millians of thousands deale vndiscréetlie and wickedly with the word gather all kinde of diuelish errors out of it by peruerting it be puffed vp with their knowledge make but a pratling thereof yet this must not let but that if God had but ten chosen in the world his counsels must be opened vnto them Men abuse the word when they talke vnreuerently of it therefore you say it is to bee remoued théeues and quarrellers doe fight rob and kill with their weapons therefore the true men must cast them away Doe ye not know that we are commanded for to meditate and talk of the holy scriptures night and day but yet reuerently Is not the word of God called the sword of the spirit Ephes 6. with which wee must fight against the diuell Doth not Christ our captaine giue vs example Matth. 4. when he still alleageth the scriptures against him How childish are ye in alleadging this that Christ did speake in parables and said it was giuen to the disciples to knowe the mysteries of the kingdome of God but to the rest in parables that in seeing they might not see I pray ye were they the vnlearned only of whom he speaketh Were they not the great clarkes the Scribes and Pharisies which did see not perceiue heare and not vnderstand Yea it is to be vnderstood of all the reprobate both the learned and vnlearned As on the other side the mysteries of the kingdome of GOD are reueiled to simple ones Matth. 11. I thanke thée O father saith Christ Lord of heauen and earth that thou hast hid these things from the wise prudent and hast opened them vnto babes Doe ye not sée in the Gospell how our Sauiour Christ did publish the Gospell instruct the multitude Is it not testified that publicanes and sinners did imbrace the same whē the wise ones despised the counsel of God Doth not Christ tell thē that publicanes harlots should go before them into the kingdom of God Luke 7. Matth. 21. You say they went all one way when they knew not the scriptures Doubtles the heathen men went all one way but it was no good way for it was to destruction euen so as many as did not as S. Paul saith receiue the loue of the trueth that they might be saued 2. Thess ◠God did send thē strong delusiō to beléeue lies so they were damned These were not all our forefathers for God alwaies shewed his trueth to his seruants Ye say the people cannot vnderstand the scriptures whē as the learned doe not but are set one against an other one doth confute another ye should conclude of this that because learned men doe raise vp errors aswell as the vnlearned therefore the scriptures ought to be taken away frō them also and so ye should make sure worke Let God speake no more vnlesse he can do better let the Pope onely vtter his minde and heare him for he will tell a plaine tale Pa. This is euen like all your schismatikes and heretikes for all of ye doe allow errors quarrels and contentions Ye thinke it a small matter to haue the world filled and set vpon an vprore with them ye doe euen glorie in them as though there could be no trueth without them Oh say you it is a certaine and infallible proofe that ours is the true Gospell that so great troubles and sundrie sects do follow it Thus ye are not ashamed to confesse the euil fruits of your doctrine so that others need not to speake thereof Many other such like speeches ye vtter Pro. I am no liker those which imbrace the trueth then ye are like your father not the father of trueth but of lyes for let a man conuict ye a thousand times in your sayings yet ye will not sticke to lie and slaunder Where can ye euer shew that any true professor of the Gospell doth allow errors quarrels contentions Because we say that the scriptures must not bee taken from the people although neuer so many errors and schismes do follow can ye gather thereof that we allow the same no we detest and abhorre from the bottome of our hearts such trecherie of the diuell and his wicked instruments We count it a lamentable thing to see the malice of the diuell and of the wicked world to bee so great that so soone as euer Christ and his Gospell appeare they bend all their might against it seeking all meanes to quench the light thereof and vtterly to banish it From hence doe spring all vprores and tumults in the Church We affirme indéede that this is a proofe that it is the Gospell of Christ that the wicked world cannot abide it if it were of the world the world would loue his owne but because it is not of the world therefore the prince of the world with all the power and armies that hee can make doth rise vp against it for Satan will not bee dispossessed of his hold without great stur The strong man armed which kéepeth his house Matth. 12. must first be bound before his house cā be spoyled When there shall be no diuell no wicked ones no kingdome set vp against the kingdom of God whē Christ shall haue none enemies then the Gospell may come foorth in peace without troubles tumults sects errors and such like But so long as all those do remaine wherefore should the Gospell lose any glorie because these things follow it nay why shuld it not bee so much the more glorious that it doth breake through all these things and by it Christ doth rule in the midst of his enemies When the Prophet foretolde that the stone which the builders refused Psal 110. was become the head of the corner he addeth Psal 118. this is the Lords doing and it is marueilous in our eyes So this is the Lords doing and it is most marueilous in our eyes that so many cruell persecutions doe follow the Gospell and yet cannot banish it so many heapes or rather floods of monstrous errors do euen as it were flow ouer it to couer it to corrupt
changing your place and roomes The high priests Scribes and Pharisies among the Iewes had their succession and place longer then you and yet Christ and his Apostles did depart from them and were neither heretikes nor schismatikes And why because they had first departed from the truth Ye must not stand vpō one clause but take that which doth follow with it This falling away shal be by the man of sinne the sonne of perdition who was to bee reuealed which is an aduersary and exalteth himself aboue al that is called God or that hath imperiall maiestie so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God boasting or shewing himselfe to be God This is one sentence which doth set the brand in the forehead of your Pope the scarre whereof will euidently appeare when ye haue made as fine worke as ye can Pa. Now ye are come vnto the matter I trow ye will make it plaine and out of all doubt This is spoken indeede of Antichrist but where will ye finde one iot of it in the Bishop of Rome Where will ye finde that euer he hath exalted himselfe aboue all that is called God or that is worshipped which word you translate at your pleasure otherwise thē euer I heard it before that which hath imperial maiestie Ye must proue that the Pope hath exalted himself aboue God or els ye haue slandered blasphemed him Such an one shal Antichrist be Pro. This is all fulfilled by the Pope as I will shew I am not to proue that he hath exalted himselfe aboue God but that hée hath exalted himselfe aboue all that is called God Psalm 82. The kings of the earth are that which is called God for the Scripture saith they are called Gods Iohn 10. And because sebasma which is translated that which is worshipped is in the New Testament giuen to the Emperors of Rome I translate it that which hath imperiall maiestie or dignitie Ye may see that not onely among the prophane writers the epithite sebastos is giuen to the Emperours but also in the 27. of the Acts of the Apostles S. Luke saith that S. Paul was deliuered to a captaine spires sebastes of the band of Augustus Also likewise Act. 25. Festus saith that Paul had appealed to Sebaston that is to Augustus Now the words of S. Paul setting forth the man of sinne are cléerely fulfilled in the Pope who hath bin as all men know exalted so high aboue kings and Emperours that they held his stirrops when he went to horsebacke There hath béen none Lord ouer kings and Emperours but the Romane Bishop None exalted to that dignitie but the Italian Priest Pa. The Apostle saith all that is called God and therefore it is to bee vnderstood of God himselfe for is not he called God There is cause why the Pope should be aboue all the kings and Emperours that doth not proue him to be the man of sinne He hath that of right because he is Christs Vicar Pro. The Apostle doth vse this spéech to put difference betwéen in déed and that which is called God and hath but that high title and is not God in déede God is more then called God for he is very God indéed This thing is also manifest when the Apostle in the next words rising by degrées saith that hee sitteth in the temple of God shewing himselfe that he is God In this last and highest he doth but set him forth to chalenge to himselfe to bée equall with GOD. Where ye say it doth belong of right to the Pope to bee aboue all kings because he is the Vicar of Christ I will answer that anon in another matter Pa. I must let ye haue your saying there is no remedie but doth the Bishop of Rome then sit in the temple of God boasting himselfe that hee is God I marueile what glose ye can make to perswade the people that the Pope doth this Who euer can shew that the Bishop of Rome doth not take himselfe to be a man If he take himselfe to be a man doth he then boast himselfe to be God For shame leaue your slandering and finde some other to ascribe this name Antichrist vnto for to the holy father it doth not belong Pro. Ye must néeds let me haue my saying when it is so manifest truth that ye cannot tel which way to cauill against it The Bishop of Rome doth sit in the temple of God shewing himselfe that he is God Ye néede not maruell nor there néedeth no glosing to perswade the people in this poynt It is rather greatly to be wondred how men should bee so blinde as not to know this great monster séeing the holie Ghost doth so liuely paint him forth in his colours The man of sin must not be a forenner for the Apostle sheweth that he shuld haue his seate in the temple of God This cannot bee vnderstood of the materiall temple in Ierusalem for that was vtterly destroyed shortly after Christ But it is meant of the true temple of God which is his Church In this temple sitteth not the Turke nor yet the Iew or any Pagan doth here raigne but the Pope hath long time had his royall throne set vp in this temple No man can say the Turke or any of the forenamed is Antichrist for wee must not goe out of Christendome to séeke him but find him we must set vp in the very temple of God Al the Papists in the world shall neuer be able to shew any other in the church besides the Pope vnto whom they may apply this descriptiō Where hath there euer béen any in the temple of God which of necessitie is here takē for the church exalted aboue all that is called God beside the Bishop of Rome I pray God open the eyes of the ignorant people whom ye seduce that they may see Antichrist and forsake him Pa. O how you would triumph if yee had any great matter of your side when ye brag so much of nothing VVhat if I should tell ye that the Antichrist which S. Paul doth describe is not yet risen What can ye say must the Pope needes be he because he hath the highest seate in the Church Whē ye haue proued that he boasteth himselfe to bee God then ye shall say somewhat Pro. Where the word of God goeth directly against ye there ye make no account of it at all such bolde beasts yee are to call it nothing But what if ye should tell vs that Antichrist is not yet come alas poore foolish papist What if a Iew should tell vs that Christ is not yet come shall we beléeue him Wee know he is already come hath fulfilled all things which were written of him in the Prophets Shall we be so foolish with the Iewes as to wait for another Likewise what if a Papist tel vs that great Antichrist which the scripture doth speak of is not yet come shall we bee so mad when we see that the Romish Bishop and his clergy