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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	antiquity_n	church_n	true_a	1,708	5	5.8552	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A90523	A defence of church-government, exercised in presbyteriall, classicall, & synodall assemblies; according to the practise of the reformed churches: touching I. The power of a particular eldership, against those that plead for a meere popular government, specially Mr Ainsvvorth in his Animadversion to Mr Clyft. &c. II. The authority of classes and synods, against the patrons of independencie: answering in this poynt Mr Davenport his Apologeticall reply, &c. and Mr Canne his Churches plea, &c, sent forth first by W. Best, and afterwards for this part of it, under the title of Syons prerogative royall. By Iohn Paget, late able and faithfull pastour of the Reformed English Church in Amsterdam. Hereunto is prefixed an advertisement to the Parliament, wherein are inserted some animadversions on the Cheshire Remonstrance against Presbytery: by T.P.	Paget, John, d. 1640.; Paget, Thomas, d. 1660.	1641 (1641)	Wing P166; Thomason E117_1; ESTC R16734	348,418	298

certaine as it is certaine that he which by force repelleth force is armed with publick authority He distinguisheth their jurisdiction in respect of the causes judged by them and repeats this their authority againe in the (e) N. 28. next animadversion And though these two kindes of government Civill and Ecclesiasticall doe use a different manner of compulsion he sayth (f) N. 29. Nihil refert nos de rei substantia agimus coactionem uterque habet sed hic spiritualem ille temporalem c. It skilleth not we intreat of the substance of the matter both of them have a coactive power or a compulsion but the one spirituall the other temporall c. A most evident assertion of Synodall jurisdiction and that they are not to direct onely by way of counsell but to correct also by way of censure To these I might adde many other testimonies of Iunius but these evidences already cited may be sufficient to shew that he was not of this strange opinion touching the independency of Churches and that Mr Daven therefore hath abused his Readers and sought to blinde their eyes when for the credit of his cause he would have it thought that Iunius was of his minde while he professeth that he doth fully agree with him SECT X. His pretence of agreement with Dr Whitaker examined M R Dav. to colour his opinion as if it were no singular conceit of Mr Iacob and some few others makes mention of the Centuriatours as if they were of the same minde yet he alledgeth not their words to prove the same But instead of others he chooseth out Dr Whitaker as if he had bene a favourer of this opinion which it is likely that he never heard of and sayth (g) Apol. reply p. 237. 238. Whit. de Cōci quest 5. Argum. To these I may adde those who have handled the controversies concerning the necessity and authority of Councills amongst whom I will instance in Dr Whitaker who speaking of the fullnes of that delegated power which Christ hath given to the Church not to the Pope which he applyeth to the Keyes in binding and loosing shutting and opening retaining and remitting finnes sayth that this power belongeth primarily principally and essentially to the Church but to the severall Bishops onely accidentally secundarily and lesse principally and explaineth himself by a rule in Philosophy which is that when any power is in two in one necessarily essentially in another contingently and accidentally it is more principally in him in whom it is necessarily and essentially then in him whose it is onely contingently and accidentally As the heat is more principally in the fire then in the water because it is in the water by reason of the fire So sayth he seeing this jurisdiction and fullnes of power is given to the Church necessarily and primarily but to the Pope onely secundarily and by the Church it is manifest that it is more in the Church then in the Pope What that learned wrighter sayth of the Churches power in comparison with the Pope holds in all other parallell instances ANSVV. First had Mr Dav. repeated this Argument of D. Whitaker fully and justly as it is set downe by himself then might the Reader have seen therein a plaine evident testimony for the authority of Synods but divers things being omitted in the beginning middle and end of it thereby the trueth is obscured and hidden from his Readers In the beginning of it D. Whitaker propounds it thus If the fullnes of power be in the Church not in the Pope then it is evident that it hath more authority then the Pope but the first is true therefore the second also Now by the Church in this place he meaneth the Generall Synod or Councell as appeares by the title of this Question noted in the beginning of it viz. (h) DeConcil Qu. 5. c. 1. with c. 3. Arg. 5. Whether the Synod be above the Pope and if he had not so meant it this his Argument had bene beside the Question And therefore while D. Whitaker here directly concludeth a fullnes of power in Synods and as he further calles it in this same place that highest authority and jurisdiction which Christ hath left unto his Church it is manifest hereby that he did not hold them to be onely for counsell admonition and so was farre from limiting all Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction unto a particular Congregation In the middle in the confirmation of this Argument D. Whit. saith For if all this power were in the Pope or in any one man principally and essentially then he dying it should perish and so the Church should altogether loose it But it is not lost though the Pope dye a thousand times but it remaineth with the Church without which the Pope though living could have no part of this authority Now to argue on this manner against the authority we asscribe unto Synods by comparing them with particular Churches as he doth against the Pope compared with Synods would be inconsequent unequall and no parallel instance because the title of the Church is no where given unto the Pope or unto any one person as it is unto an assembly of Ministers Governours or Deputies of Churches met together in the name of Christ in Synods because though we asscribe unto Synods some jurisdiction yet we doe not say that all power is in them originally and so to be derived unto others as is sayd of the Pope and consequently because there is no such danger that the power of the Church should be lost and perish by the death of such as are members of the Synod as might be by the death of the Pope if all power were primarily and essentially in him alone And therefore it is a vaine assertion of Mr Dav. touching this argument of D. Whit. viz What that learned wrighter sayth of the Churches power in comparison with the Pope holds in all other parallell instances In the end of this Argument prosequuted by D. Whitak he concludeth thus Wherefore seeing it is certaine that this power is given unto the Church primarily and not unto the Pope but secondarily and by accident and seeing the Church is represented in the Synod it is of necessity that the Synod must be above the Pope And thus most evidently he grants unto the Synod as being a representative Church a power jurisdiction above the Pope a power which consists in binding and loosing shutting opening retaining and remitting of sinnes as himself here explaines it and so is directly contrary to them which allow no more unto Synods but counsell and admonition Why did Mr Davenp omit and refuse to name the Synod which D. Whit. so expressely mentioneth applying yeelding unto the Synod that power which he there pleades for Secondly as for that similitude of fire and water though it be granted that heat is more principally in the fire then in the water because it is in the water by reason of the

from their Ministers but concerning particular Congregations and their subjection to Ecclesiasticall authority out of themselves Though Mr C. and some others that now strive for the Independencie Churches doe also affect a popular way of government in the Church opposing not onely the power of Classicall Presbyteries but also of particular Elderships yet Popularity doth not necessarily follow upon Independency neither have they alwayes both the same Patrons Mr Iacob though he pleaded for a single uncompounded policie in opposition to Synodall authority yet he utterly disliked those popular circumstances held by the Separation as hath been noted (y) Pag. 176. before Againe the Anabaptists though they maintaine and practise those popular wayes of judging causes among them and (z) Protoc Embd. Act. 101. n. 1. q. 7. Cl. Cl. Bekent p. 218. Cloppenb Cancker der Weder-doop p. 535. oppose the Elderships of the Reformed Churches as exercising an undue power in deciding matters apart from the Congregation yet they allow and practise divers things contrary to the nature of Independencie so as Mr C. pleades for it seeing 1. They have (a) Faukel Babel der Weder-doop pag. 166 167 190. their Bishops as they call them distinct from their other Preachers by them termed Vermaenders that is Admonishers and by some of them (b) Protoc Embd. Act. 78. n. 4. Act. 80. n. 2. held to be Deacons these acknowledge themselves (c) Gesprec to● Zierickz p. 21. to be inferiour to their Bishops in the ministery The Bishops belong to some more eminent Congregations of that Sect doe at certaine times visit the other lesser Congregations and administer the Sacraments among them 2. The Anabaptists (d) Protoc Embd. Act. 99. n. 1. Fauk Babel der Wederd D a. p. 215. use to excommunicate whole Congregations at once when having been of the same profession with them they witnesse their dissent from them in such matters as for which particular persons are excommunicated by them 3. The causes that cannot be determined in their particular Congregations are by them sometimes (e) Babel der Wederd C4 a. C6 b. referred to the judgement of Arbiters men of severall Congregations chosen by both parties with promise to stand to their sentence sometimes also to the meetings of the Officers of sundry Churches This shewes that though they plead for Popularitie yet they doe not simply allow of Independencie 11. Suppose that consideration had been alledged by the Authour against Popular government also as justly it might in regard of the manifold disorders confusion and dissipation of Churches which it is knowne to bring with it yet this answer cannot proove it to be insufficient because it runnes upon a twofold false supposition 1. That this appertaines to the due liberty of the people to have their judgement sought unto for the determining of all controversies that arise in the Church 2. That this liberty is acknowledged to have been taken from them as if they had been once in full possession of it or that this is the maine reason for denying that pretended liberty to the people because of their infirmities or miscarriages in the use of it These things as they are untrue in themselves so they are unjustly obtruded upon the Defendant who had given no occasion to such pretences We maintaine on the other side that this is no part of the peoples priviledge because it is not due unto them by any divine warrant and herein we are further confirmed seeing such an order is in outward appearance and according to undenyable experience in the Anabaptists Brownists others attended with manifold disorders confusion dissipation of Churches 111. Though it were granted that the people have beene oftentimes wiser in their choyce sounder in the faith then their Ministers which yet three of those places (f) Act. 3.26 Zozo l. 7. c. 7. Theod. l. 2. c. 7. here alledged doe not proove there being nothing in them to that purpose for which they are cited yet that is not enough to disprove the foresaid assertion unlesse he could shew that ordinarily they are so qualifyed indued with such abilities as are requisite for the orderly exercise of judiciary power in the Congregation This is not onely contrary to experience but also to the revealed will wisedome of God in dispensing his gifts severally unto the members of the mysticall body of his Church appovnting some to be of meaner use and in subjection to others 1. Cor. 12 14-31 Heb. 13.17 We must either straiten the limits of the Church further then Christ himself hath allowed us by shutting the weak feeble out of his fold or else acknowledge that all the members are not fit to be used in the judiciall trying determining of causes THe next thing that Mr C. (g) Chur. pl. p. 94. pretends to answer is touching the Antiquity of Classicall and Synodall government from those words of the Authour that the power which the Classis exerciseth is ancient c. that he names it the old beaten path c. The Authour indeed had used these words upon just occasion not as any reason or argument to justify the lawfulnes of this power as Mr C. seemes to insinuate but to declare the trueth in the matter of fact rather then in the controversie of right and this may easily appeare to those that looke upon the places (h) Pag. 72. 105. alledged out of the Authours book When an unjust complaint was made that he had subjected the Church under an undue power of the Classis that he brought it under c. he answereth That power which the Classis exerciseth is ancient the same power which they had long before I either knew them or they me c. Againe when there was mention made of those of his side he answered For my part I abhorre this siding I desire to walk in the old beaten path of that discipline and government practised by these Reformed Churches and established in their Classes and Synods c. Was not here just cause to use these words to this purpose for which they are applyed He speakes chiefly of the antiquity of this government in regard of the state of that particular Church of those with which it is combined concerning which Mr C. himself cannot deny but that he hath spoken the trueth But suppose it were uttered in generall with reference unto the joynt consent of the Churches in all ages giving testimony unto the exercise of this power might not this be a weighty profitable consideration to be commended unto the serious thoughts of those that offer to oppose it Let us heare what Mr C. saith to this I. C. ANSVV. I. Sundry errours are as ancient as the Apostles time c. REPL. 1. This doth not prejudice the constant practise of this or any other trueth nor the regard that is to be given unto the custome of the Churches of God according to the direction

Congregations let us see what his owne witnesse saith D. Whitaker that is next alledged by him doth by many arguments shew the profit and necessity of Synods and to this end he citeth many (l) DeConc qu. 1. c. 3. p. 15.16 q. 2. c. 3. p. 55 56. places of Scripture both from the old new Testament he alledgeth at large (m) P. 17. c. 7 or 8 causes for which they are profitable and of great use and fruit He speaketh also of such Synods as are not onely for discussing and concluding of matters by way of counsell and advise but of those that have power to (n) P. 21. judge and condemne obstinate offenders by a publick judgement and as occasion requires to anathematise or exclude from the fellowship of the Church he maintaines that those which are lawfully called unto Synods have authority of deciding and determining controversies by (o) Ibid. q. 3. c. 3. p. 95.96 c. definitive sentence or suffrage he saith that (p) DePōtif Rom. qu. 4. p. 470. appeales are of divine and naturall right and cannot be denyed in controversies about Ecclesiasticall causes and persons And thus by the testimony of their owne witnesse my adversaries doe offend both against the law of God and the law of nature in denying appeales and in not allowing the actions and judgements of a particular Congregation to be judicially examined by a Synod or Classis The severall testimonies of D. Whitaker to this purpose are alledged (q) P. 39. 133-141 before and applyed at large to declare his judgement in this controversy Though D. Whit. doe (r) DeCōc q. 5. p. 178. grant as is here alledged against me that Ecclesiasticall authority is in the Church principally primarily and essentially c. he doth not hereby contradict himself or deny the power of Synods where Ministers doe judge by vertue of their calling and deputation from many Churches The authority of Churches is manifested in them and by their service therein The like testimony alledged from Saravia and Schola Parisienfis is (ſ) P. 170. before answered Yea the Schoole of Paris doth sufficiently (t) Schol. Paris p. 1 2. explaine this matter by a fit similitude shewing that Ecclesiasticall authority is in the Church primarily and instrumentally in the Ministers as the power of seeing is in man principally but instrumentally in the eye As man sees by his eye so the Church exerciseth Ecclesiasticall authority by the Ministers and rulers thereof and so judgeth of all crimes and offences The testimony of Bell next alledged is in like manner to be understood Whereas from (v) Regim of Chur. ch 2. sect 4. him they object that Excommunication precisely and chiefly pertaineth to the Church and that she hath authority to commit the execution thereof to some speciall persons for that purpose and chosen for that end this doth no way condemne but rather illustrate our practise agreeable thereunto And that the meaning of this Authour was not repugnant unto us it appeareth more plainely by another of his writings (x) Bells motiv l. 2. c. 4. concl 3. c. where he evidently declares his minde that Synods have power to exercise Ecclesiasticall authority and to proceed judicially with delinquents even to depose excommunicate though it were the Pope himself upon due conviction And to this end he alledges the confession of many Popish writers and farre more truely and uprightly then Mr Canne hath done in this controversie As for D. Willet if he speak but to the same effect with Bell as they say then the same answer may serve But for the place alledged Synops cont 4. qu. 4. p. 2. I finde no such matter there They alledge p. 2. when as there is no second part of that question But in the same booke he gives plaine evidence against them he acknowledgeth Synods to be (y) Synops Papi Cōt 3. qu. 1 p. 105. an wholesome meanes for the repressing and reforming both of errours in religion and corruption in manners he alledgeth the consent of antiquity to prove that our opinion is grounded upon trueth and Scripture namely that those which are lawfully called unto Synods (z) Qu. 3. p. 109.110 have determining voyces and power to give sentence and giveth instance in the Councell of Antioch where Paulus Samosatenus was condemned and cut off as an enemie to the trueth c. he avoucheth that (a) Qu. 7. p. 123. they have authority to judge examine suspend punish and depose c. And thus D. Willet fully accordeth with us in this poynt that there is a superiour power to judge the causes of particular Congregations D. Taylor next alledged affords them no help Whereas he saith that (b) Com. on Tit. 3.10 p. 712. Excommunication is the common action of the Church and not of any private person or persons we also affirme the same thing Our profession and practise alwayes hath bene never to excommunicate any without common consent of our Church but had we done unjustly at any time therein we might justly have bene subject to the censure of a Synod or Classis and yet then also the Ministers and Deputies assembled in the name of many Churches could with no reason be accounted private persons And though we think ourselves bound to ask counsell of the Classis according to the order of these Churches before we proceed to cut off any member of the Church by excommunication this proves no deprivation but a direction of our power Now whether I have just cause to blush for denying to the Churches of God that due power which the Learned of all professions doe grant unto her as Mr Canne and Will Bdoe without blushing (c) Ch. pl. p. 86. charge me let the judicious impartiall Readers judge SECT V. Touching the Testimonies of English Non-conformists VNder the title of this kinde of witnesses they alledge against me the Replyer to D. Downame Mr Parker the Authour of the English Puritanisme D. Ames Mr Baines Mr Bates Mr Fenner Mr Udall the English Church at Franck ford and Mr Hooker These are (d) Ch. pl. p. 86 c. here produced and in another (e) P. 23. place unto which he referres us for the same purpose he cites also the Protestation of the Kings Supremacic D. Fulke and our Country-men in New-England For answer hereunto First concerning some of these that seeme to be of Mr Cannes minde in denying the authority of Synods in the government of the Church observe how idlie and superfluously he alledgeth them against me when as he knowes that I my self did acknowledge and note so much before as namely the judgement of (f) Answ to W. B. p. 74. Mr Hooker (g) Ib. p. 27 D. Ames and the Author of the booke entitled English Puritanisme by whom also the Protestation of K. Supremacie is sayd to be written These I have confessed to be opposite unto me in this