wall let him take heed least by a divine hand they rebound back For the three instances in the Magent I looke upon them as so many slaunders for which by rule hee is to give us an account for whereas by Pauls rule 1 Tim. 5.19 he is to produce two or three witnesses for one accusation yet he makes three severall accusations and that of three Churches without any one witnesse therefore till the true father appeares we must still lay the brat at his doore Answer to CHAP. XIII TO 1 Art Of private men prophecying c. It is answered before for this is his fifth time of repeating it even to loathing It is high time to have done with it now But the oftner he hath said his lesson the worse he hath learned it for there is scarce one right word in this Art either consonant to the truth or his Authors quoted for it as I shall make it appeare by comparing his article with the Authors words ☞ â—t Cat. p. 6. â—lles them â—ophets his 1 Author is Ans to 32. q. p. 77. 78. first W. R. saith this prophecying is done by meere private men His Authour tells us men haply indued with a gift of Prophecy 2 Hee saith they preach for confutation as if they must bee polemicall men able to wade through controversies But not one word of that in the Author 3 He saith they expound and apply the word with all authority but no word sounding that way in the Author these words with all authority being properly applyed by Paul to the offâ—câ—rs not to the Prophets Tit. 2.15 4 He saith this Prophecying is ordinary the Author saith they are not called to Prophecying ordinarily if by ordinary he meanes frequently and usually but sparingly and seldome frequently when the Officers arâ— sicke or absent c. His other Author cited is Mr. Cot. Cat. p. 6. and as in the other quotations he added diverse particulars of his own which the Author never mentioned So in this as corruptly he leaves out many materiall things which would have given light to the point in hand To instance such saith Mr Cot. as prophecy must 1 be allowed for Prophets 2 not prophecy till the Elders have done 3 not unlesse the time permit 4 and then also they must be first called thereunto by the Elders But W. R. hath not one word of all these that so much serve to cleare our practise Grant a Narratour but this liberty to adde alter and abstract as hee please and when he please and then what kind of Narration doe you thinke will he make had I time to anotomize all his Articles as I have done this and compare his proofes I should make him appeare more fully but I give onely a touch for brevity 2. He would heere cast a blur by saying there is a booke printed called a Sermon preached at Plymouth by a comber of wooll But I intreat the Reader to put him to his proofes for he produceth no other grounds but I am certified so he might scandalize all the Churches in the world 3. He comes in with some of them tells us that Prophecying is seldome used that so he might cast a blot on us as if we were at variance amongst our selves which course he often takes and that some of us are for frequent others for seldome Prophecying and yet do but marke the man it is not Authors and Authors he quotes to prove this as one would thinke hee should but only one and the same Author which he quoted before and which is more this Author not one haires breadth varying in his speech He saith in this Marg. 1 that some of our people have their farmes so farre from the Assembly that they cannot possibly come every Sabbath day hardly any to the word 2 that the people of late growe more violent in claiming their pretended liberty of prophecying 3 deserting and contemning their owne Ministers and Churches because they are not suffered to injoy it I should know New-England as well as I. P. or M. B. or any of his informers Answer but I solemnely here professe and with a safe conscience avouch it that I know no truth in any of all these particulars asserted but rather the contrary unlesse haply in those of the Island or such as adheare to theÌ„ who he knowes well â—re not of us whose waies and spirits are as grievous to our Churches as to himselfe why should he impute their practises to us more then the opinions of the Antinomians and Familists here in London to the godly Ministers and people of the city I will lay this as all other calumnious aspersions ungroundedly cast upon our Churches upon his back as the raiser of them untill he produceth two or three witnesses before us that will avouch them according to Pauls rule 1 Tim 5.19 To Art 2. After their Preaching saith he they take upon them to blesse the people III. as the Ministers doe I desire his grounds and proofes for here hee brings none Answer nor in any other place that I can finde but the contrary hee well knowes i. e. that Answer to 32. q. 38. whom he hath often quoted expresly saith that blessing the people in the name of the Lord is an act proper to our Officers which no member may presume to doe To Art 3. We have saith he a course before our dismission i. e. of the Assembly to give leave to any publikely to propound their doubts make their objections and to argue pro and con and in his Marg. makes a grievous and bitter outcry against us for so doing and adds also that it is an abrupt course at first dash openly to implead the Minister of error before all the people and that it is scandalous and reproachfull it argues not so much civility piety charity nor prudence c. Answer â—de 9. 1. If a better then himself durst not reproach one worse then our selves though he had ground enough to have done it I hope then W. R. dare not without any ground at alâ— bring these sore accusations against so many Churches But what his proofes are you shall see Mr. Cot. Cat. p. 6. whose words are these It may bee lawfull for any except women to aske questions at the month of the Prophets 1 Mr. Cot. speakes onely of asking questions of the Prophets i. e. such members as prophecy he adds of the Ministers also 2. Mr. Cot. seemes to speake of the matter then delivered only for he mentions no other He adds matters formerly delivered also 3 Mr. Cot. excepts women He saith leave is given to any without exception 4 Mr. Cot. speakes soberly it may be lawfull hee speakes peremptorily wee have a course c. 5 Mr. Cot. allowes only to aske questions but he adds a bedroule of his owne to make us odious they may saith he obiect argue pro and con about any matter c. yea they doe abruptly at the first dash openly implead the Minister
AN ANSWER TO W. R. HIS NARRATION of the Opinions and Practises of the Churches lately erected in Nevv-England Vindicating those Godly and Orthodoxall Churches from more then an hundred imputations fathered on them and their Church way by the said W. R. in his Booke Wherein is plainely proved 1. That the grounds of his Narration are sandie and insufficient 2. That the maner of his handling it unloving and irregular 3. That the matter of it ful of grosse mistakes divers contradictions 4. That the quotations extremely wrested and out of measure abused 5. That his Marginall notes impertinent and injurious By THOMAS WELDE Pastour of the Church of Roxborough in NEVV-ENGLAND Jude 10. They speake evill of things they know not Prov. 18.17 He that is first in his owne case seemeth just but his neighbour commeth after and searcheth him This is Licensed and Entered according to Order LONDON Printed by Tho Paine for H. Overton and are to be sold at his shop entring into Popes-Head Alley out of Lumbard-Streete 1644. THE EPISTLE TO THE REDAER THere was a law in Israell Deut. 22.18 19 that if any man did bring an ill name upon a Virgin of Israell the matter was to come before the Elders and hee was to bee chastised and amerced an hundred shekells of silver There is one W. R. if thou knowest the man that hath brought many ill reports not upon one Virgin but all the Virgin-Churches of New-England When thou seest him do so much as bring him forth to Answer this law Tell him wee purpose to try an Action with him and have satisfaction from him And if hee saith hee hath not raised these reports himselfe but had them from others Then tell him again from us that cannot satisfie for we have learned from divine and humane lawes that if any bee taken reporting of slaunders as wee shall abundantly shew hee hath do◠his Narrative he may be charged as the raiser of ◠〈◊〉 hee can cleare himselfe by bringing such Authors into light as will owne them Dut. 17.6 2 Cor. 13.1 1 Tim. 5.19 But if he will not or cannot wee must lay them at his owne doore It s for all the severall reports in his booke brought against us and our wayes we expect the rule of Moses and the Apo-stle Paul that in the mouth of two or three witnesses and not under every matter should be established to produce Barrow Browne Robinson c. for Authors for they were dead before New-England Churches were borne or H. W. T. P. and I know not what private letters lying by him in his study for wee know not their voyce nor let him say it was told me as he often doth for wee protest against such testimony nor I was informedso c. for sama est mendax and prejudice hardly speakes well of any Tell him wee will goe to aged Paul hee was a good Divine to bee our Vmpire to determine what witnesse we must have in a case of accusation and to his verdict wee will stand which is set downe plainely 1 Tim. 5.19 Three things more let me say to the reader and I have done 1. Wonder not this Answer staid so long for it had certainly taken his narrative by the heele but that some speciall providence whose distracted lines intercepted the truth is I thought it should neede no other Answer then it selfe untill I perceived some ill effects of it 2 But why doe I undertake this worke Answer 1. I am one of the nearest kinsmen to those Churches of any other man in these parts and therefore I take my selfe bound to the name of my Brethren in a righteous way and not let it die through my neglect 2. Few or none are here have had more experience of New-England Church courses then my selfe through many yeares continuance with them and to whom I am returning when God makes way and am therefore able to speake on certainty and with conscience where W. R. departs from the truth in his relations 3. I have beene pressed by word of mouth and sundry letters to doe it therefore if I should hold my peace when I am called to speake and see so many innocent Churches suffer I should not lift up my face to God nor my Brethren there God knowes my spirit how exceeding loath I was to controvert with a Brother though but a defendant and to uncover his nakednesse but when God calls I am bound with Moses when he saw the Ebrew did wrong to his Brother to say why smitest thou thy fellow Exod. 2.13 3. Touching the answer it selfe some things I would say 1 I thinke it not meete to answer all I could nor to every particular especially in his Marginall extravagances that would be too tedious For our principall passages being answered unto the rest will fall of themselves 2. Nor to answer any thing in his booke so oft as hee repeates it for divers things are fetched over by him some three some foure severall times what his reasons are himselfe can best give account 3. Neither is it possible for me to answer the sayings of his private letters lying by him such a ground of Church stories as I never heard of because I know neither who they are nor what their owne words are or if I did were it materiall 4. Thou seest I have a three fold worke to answer 1. his Articles 2 his quotations 3 his Margent All which I have indeavored faithfully as in Gods presence to doe what oversight or infirmity hath passed my penne therein I crave thy pardon for we are weake men and God knowes too apt to forget our selves in greater things then these 5. What I here write is onely from my selfe if any weakenesse appeare impute it not I pray thee to the case in hand or our Churches iudgements there but to my owne frailty rather 6. Nor is it my scope to discusse the points of Discipline that worke is in abler hands but I looke upon his booke as an historicall narration and accordingly I frame my answer 7. Though he brings not the words of any of his Authors cited which had been fairer and might have kept him in closer bonds yet I have done it for him especially in the last sixe or eight Chapters that you may iudge whether hee hath dealt fairely with them or no. 8. When I recite W. R. his words in his narration you will see I have dealt candidly with him either mentioning his very words or so many of them as containe their full strength whereto my answer tends 9. When at any time in my answer I say such an Article or such a clause is untrue or is false I am not willing to impute the falsity thereof to the Authors knowledge I would iudge otherwise of him then so but to the thing it selfe asserted which may be done through his misinformation or mistake I will say no more but commit thy spirit to the wise guidance of the Father of lights who
or no for I have good ground to question ☜ because he thrusts in T. G. to I. G. amongst his New-England letters and yet these men never came there though himself faith in postscript pag. 51. ult l. That his letters come from Members of our Churches in New-England And as he adds some so he may adde more for ought I know 2. If such letters were sent how can we be assured that such expressions as he reports are in those letters 2. Or such a scope as he puts upon them to be collected from those expressions All these must be cleared before we can ground any thing upon them But W. R. tells us so Ans So he tells us other stories in this booke that are as far from truth as Old-England is from New which wee have no faith to credit 2. If he hath so extreamly mistaken the printed letters which he knowes we can come at to peruse how can we or any else be assured that he hath not more abused his private letters which no eye but his owne may see 3. Suppose none of the mentioned exceptions can be had but that the writers of the letters be as honest sound able men as can be imagined and suppose we could be assured of the particulars recited yet all this will not serve because they are but single men and write as private persons their own thoughts not as be trusted by any commission from the Churches to write their common Judgements Therefore no ground to esteeme their letters of such authenticall force unlesse he can prove they were allowed by the Churches or were men Apostolicall that could not erre in writing 4 If this be a good ground to prove Churches judgements by private letters marke what absurdities will ensue 1. That we must believe that the Churches of New-England denie a power of votes ordinarily to the people because Mr. Parker a Pastour there wrote so And so of necessity we must believe a falshood 2. That if W. R. and two or three more should write into New-England of their allowance of the lawfulnesse of an imposed Common Prayer booke then we may write and print it for so doth W. R. that the Churches and Ministers in Old-England doe generally allow such impositions 3. Then any few envious or malicious persons in a Church may bring a scandall unavoydable upon any Church in the world if what they say and hold should be accounted the Churches judgement where they live 4. Then the Churches of England are all Antinomian and Familisticall because on our knowledge such letters have been written from some in these Churches as professedly mainetaine such opinions how absurd these conclusions would be let any ind fferent man judge 5. Yea to sinke this unreasonable dealing of his ITS IMPOSSIBLE that this should be a sound discovery of the Churches judgement and practise there ☞ because many of these letters cited speake contrary one to another as himselfe well knowes and his Narration fully expresseth yet all the Churches in New-England saith W. R. himselfe in his 1. pag. are of one and the same way in Church Government and what may be said of any one may be believed of all Therefore it 's impossible that his letters which speake contraries can be a sufficient ground of testimonie for our Church way which is but only one And for him to produce them as a proofe of what they cannot possible make good appeares not only A SEEMING CONTRADICTION but against light of COMMON SENSE which he falsly imputes to us but we truly to him 6. Lastly we appeale for a conclusion of this Argument from W. R. in a distemper to the same man in his right minde to tell us now ingenuously if this be a good Argument by one mans writing to prove the Churches iudgement No saith W. R. pag. 3. line 4. of this very booke it is not for such a booke saith he called our way of the Churches proves not that they hold a platforme of Discipline in New-England and why Because it was compiled by one particular man and not consented to by the rest What can be more full But he leanes not upon the testimony of any one letter Object but produceth divers letters for the proofe of every particular If he did so it were insufficient as is proved Answ but he often produceth one single private letter alone without any other evidence at all as I can make appeare in above fifty severall places throughout the booke But he will tell us that he produceth not these private letters and manuscripts by themselves alone to prove our judgements Object and practises in New England but as ioyned with the printed bookâ—s or papers to make the storie compleat But it is not so neither Ans ☞ for in abundance of places he produceth none of the printed bookes at all for proofe but only â—hese private letters as his only ground As Cap. 1. Art 2. Cap. â—â— Art 2. medio and Art 4. And Art 5. And Art 11. Cap. 4. Art 9. And pag. 17. pag. 18. pag. 19. Cap. 5. Art 2. And Art 3. And Art 4. And Art 5. And Art 6. And Art 7. And Art 8. And Art 9. And Art 10. And Art 11. Cap. 6. Art 10. Cap. 7. Art 4. Art 5. Art 6. Art 7. Cap. 9. 9. And above twenty more mentioned in the Margent and the postscript Therefore it 's evident he grounds a very great part of his Narration upon these private writings which are altogether insufficient as we have proved upon demonstrated reasons But he was not there himselfe an eye-witnesse to behold things Object he produced the best grounds he had for his Narrative What calling had he more then others Ans to make any Narratives of things done 3000. Miles off which he knew no better he should rather have let it alone then abuse the truth the Churchâ—s and all dabble himselfe upon such slight grounds as these are But see his third ground he hath OTHER GOOD INTELLIGENCES that is by word of mouth 1. Who can witnesse he hath such Intelligence Answer 2. That this is GOOD Intelligence 3. Where are those good Intelligencers let them come face to face and be tryed but if they be peeping behind the doore we owne them not for good Intelligencers Thus we have seene the unsoundnesse of this foundation whereon he builds his story and the Axlettee on which all the burden lies being thus broken the NARRATIVE must needs fall without any further opposition But as his grounds are weake so the manner of his procedings is 1. Unloving 2. Irregular 1. UNLOVING Witnesse 1. All those calumnies he strives with all his might though to no purpose to cast upon his so much HONOVRED BRETHREN from the beginning of his Preface to the end of his Postscript 2. His crosse-grained animadversions where are so many quibs gibs scoffes and far-fetched collections to make New-England men and their wayes odious to the world together with his darke
and not all integralls into the definition for suppose the Officers of a Church be taken away by death 〈◊〉 it yet I hope he will not say that in the vacancy the Church ceaseth to be Officers are not simply for the being but the well being of a Church See how he adulterates his quotation in two or three Articles of this Chapter 1. He saith his Author assumes Answ to q. p. 10. we hold there is no visible Church but a particular But his Author saith no visible Church properly so called but a particular so W. R. leaves out the middle words just as in Mat. 4.6 whereby the sense is exceedingly altered sith a Church improperly so called is yet a church 2. He saith we currently hold this but his Author speaks modestly in these words we know not any c. Ans to 32. q. pag. 9. Ans to 9. Pos 66. 3. He saith we hold there is no universall visible Church in any sense but his Author saith only we know no such visible Catholike Church wherein the seales are to be dispensed Ans to 9. Pos 66. A man with halfe an eye may discerne this is not square dealing Answer to CHAP. III. THis Chapter is spent in laying downe what qualifications the Churches of New-England require in persons of age that are admitted Members He tells us to name but the heads in briefe That they must be reall Saints sincere Beleevers men of meeke and humble spiritâ— and sincere ends and that the Church in admitting of them doth make exact triall 1. by letters of recommendation 2. or testimony of Members 3. experience of their conversation 4. by examination of their knowledge and the worke of grace first in private then in publique 5. that they be such which he saith is much desired as can cleave together in opinion and affection 6. that they cohabite as neere as may be for the better mutuall watchfulnesse 7. that they be such as know what belong to Church Covenant approve it and seeke â—â— I pray W. R. speake now as a Christian and as a man of God â— there any thing in all this you have said that you can blame in our practise 1. for desiring to have all our members if it might be of such a spirituall stampe and character as this and 2. for endeavouring by tryall what lies in us to find out such as say that they are Jewes and are not but doe lye 3. and having discovered such for keeping them from polluting the holy seales and other Ordinances of God to his dishonour and their own ruine 4. or if we as far as our light and line reaches for wee have no spirit of infallability Find them sound in the faith for receiving encouraging comforting them what hurt is in all this I tell you W. R. if your selfe and some others did take more exact pains in the tryall of your people and fitting them for the enjoyment of Church-Priviledges it would never repent you Now although these particulars recited doe justifie us and our proceedings yet marke his dealing first in his Articles then in the Margent of his chapter He tells the world Art 2. That we require in persons to be admitted not only to be common buâ— choyce Christians â—ns It by châ—yâ— he meâ—nâ—s eminent Christians it 's very false for we accept Christians of the lowest forme and never reject any for want of parts or eminency of grace iâ— we can discerne in them an heart smitten with sense of sin and need of Christ joyned with a blamelesse conversation though very weake in knowledge and faith c. we dare not refuse but embosome them in the Lord. And hâ—mselfe when he will speake the naked truth confesseth as much Art 8 tells us what great indulgence we use in the admitting members Let the Reader take notice that upon perusall of his Authors quoted he shâ—ll not find any one sentence or word tending to justifie his saying herâ—in Hee would make men beleeve in Article the second that wee hold if any be admitted that is not a reall Saint he is false matter of the visible Church â—nswer This he boldly affirmes but not one word of proofe nor truth We hold no such thing for a visible Saint may be true matter of a visible Church when admitted a member upon his profession of godlines and taking the Covenant as Achan Iudas Ananias Saphira were all true matter of the visible though not of the invisible Church else they had never beene admitted into the Churches And that our Churches in New-Eng hold so vid. 1. 2. Ans to 32 9. 50. Discourse of the Covenant pag 5. Hence now what will become of all his long Margent to Article 12. where hee keepes a great stirre in confuting us by foure tedious arguments of an error we never held but it 's one of his owne framing So all his labour therein is lost and some dishonour gained he said in his preface he would bring proofe for every materiall thing not proved before yet he breakes his word because he had a minde to have it true that it might reflect upon us He reports That every one that is admitted is brought before the whole Church though never so many to make their Declarations in publike wonders in his margent that we should be so harsh in our dealing as not to betrust the Elders and some private men with their examinations Art 6. He is againe besides the truth Answer for in the Churches where we have lived many yeares we have seene such a tender respect had to the weaker sex who are usually more fearefull bashfull that we commit their triall to the Elders some few others in private who upon their testimony are admitted into the Church without any more adoe And so shew more indulgence to them then W. R. doth to us As for that question in his margent Why may not the Officers be trusted with their examinations c. Ans So they are frequently according to your wish In the same Article he saith That in the publique their Declarations must be to the conviction and satisfaction of all before they can be admitted It 's not so for though some few be unsatisfied Answer they use to submit to the rest and sit downe in their votes unlesse their reasons be such as may convince the Church For his Quotations cited to prove both these last mentioned good Reader doe us the favour but to search Answer to 32 quest pag. 23. 24. and Answ to 9 quest 62. 70. and you shall finde them to justifie him so farre as not to afford him any one word or so much as a shew and countenance All I say to W. R. is this How can this stand with simplicity and truth He would make men beleeve Art 8. that SOMETIMES we goe contrary to our former rigour by using great indulgence in our admitting members as if we were not consistent to our selves and principles through
whereas the truth is we neither hold so nor practise so but bring as few matters as possible into the Assembly rather labouring to take all things up in private and then make as short work in publique when they must needs come there as may be Now what will become of that long Marginall wherein so ungroundly he makes invectives against us and our popular government as he is pleased injuriously to terme it for making store of worke in our congregations in hearing debating examining all matters till all be satisfied which will take up saith he not an hower or two in a weeke nor in every day of the weeke nor scarce all the whole weeke time will suffice to finish businesse in that kind that may fall out and tire Ministers and People and breake the Sabbath by keeping Courts thereon c. And so goes on at random to speake evill of things he knowes not whereas many of our Churches are oft for many dayes together and weekes and moneths also free from such heapes of matters as he dreames of and oftentimes from any at all But this is his dealing first he makes an Article of his own for words matter manner with divers universalls in it expresly contrary to the truth and without one word of authority for it and then drawes his own collections from it with course language and bitter invectives In Art 11. he deales exceeding ill at least in 6. particulars in this one Article 1. He represents us to the world as a people unsetâ—ed and strangely divided amongst our selves in the way of voting Some saith he affirme that the major part carries matters others that unlesse all doe agree nothing proceeds some that things are not carryed by voyces at all but by truth and according to God 1. Let the Reader note well Answer that our Narrator undertakes to relate the Opinions and practises generally held by the Churches in New-England as in the title pag. 1. And that the Churches in New-England walke in one way And yet here he brings 3 relations crossing each other of our practises in a very materiall point of Discipline How can the Churches practise one way and yet goe 3. contrary wayes at once and how can he truly relate such things as are generally held by all the Churches and yet tells us how they hold and practise 3. severall things at the same time For I confesse if he had undertaken to declare the practises of some particular men only and not of Churches or of some Churches not of the Churches of New-England in generall Or if all those Churches were not of one and the same way but he professeth they are and that without any materiall difference then his taske were easier to show how they walke in 3. severall waies at once But now I leave him to untie the knot and save his credit 2. Here he pretends to bring Authors to prove that the Churches in New-England ☞ who walke in one and the same way doe walke in 3. severall waies Doe his Authors speake true how then doe we walke in one and the same way without any materiall difference as he said when he would make his advantage by it doe they speake false why then doth he bring such for the ground of his Narrative that so abuse him and us or else doth he mistake their words or falsifie them that is worst of all In either of which we must needs innocently suffer Here you see his speech verified in his Postscript pag. 50. That whether the reports he brings be true or false it 's nothing to him 3. Now we will scan his Authors quoted to see whether the blame lies on them or himselfe the first pretended proofe is Ans to 32. q. pag. 60. 61. 62. That the whole body must agree else nothing can be done Whereas this Author saith no such thing but the contrary rather that is That if the whole body accord not at first but the minor part disagreeth there are other means partly within themâ—â—lves and partly by calling in helpâ— from other Churches to bring matters to an issue This plainly sheweth that some things may be done when all agree not The 2. proofe is for this That some things are not carryed by voâ—â—es at all but by truth and right according to God And cites Ans to 32. q 58 60. who saith to this effâ—ct that the word is the only rule whereby all Churâ—h votes are carryed and that matters are not to be carryed only that is farre enough from not a all by multitudâ—s of voices For though the word of truth we all grant be the only rule of Church proceedings yet the means of all transactions in our Church must be the lively voices of the Saints c. Thus his proofs failing who must be the father of this untruth cast upon New-England you may well judge ☞ 4. Note yet further whereas he quotes Ans to 32. q. 61. to prove that unlesse all agree nothing can be done Yet from the same Author and selfe-same page in the end of this same 11. Art he concludes that though some diâ—agree yâ—t matters may bâ— ended and the rest proceed That as he often speakes contrary to himselfâ— so he can make his Author doe the same if he list and can as ships use to doe at sea saile contrary waies with the same winde 5. And yet which is worse then the other he would seeme to hide and cloake this deaâ—ing of his and lay the fault upon our variablenesse and say sometimes they grant c. as if we were like the wind sâ—metimes one way and somâ—timâ—s another yet all is from the same Author in the same page at the same time And often you will find this word sometime to be brought in throughout the booke in the same sense as here to make the world beleeve that our judgements and practises are variable and to defend him selfe from a blow in case he be questioned 6. If a lesser number saith he dissent from the greater neither can give satisfaction to them or will receive it from them and è contra but still persist in dissenting then the major part after due forbearance and calling in the counsell of neighbouring Churches admonish and censure them This he saith in the Margent is harsh dealing and uncharitable and foolish yea destructive and spares no words that might lay loade upon us Yea but it may be his grounds for proofe are sound and so he may be the more bold to blame us but he cites onely Answer to 32. q. 58. 61. whose words are If it appeares that such â—s dissent from the maior part be factiously or partially carried and after the rest have laboured to convince them by the rule yet still they continuâ— obstinate they are admonished c. Now speak W. R. is this faire dealing first to pretend proofes ☜ leave out the most materiall words and secondly blame us for harshnesse when there is no
How is it possible that both these parts should be true can New-England Churches count the same men at the same time to be true Christians and yet prophane and wicked See what a story this must needes be that is thus full of contradictions to it selfe and in no small and triviall things but in the greatest points of our Church Discipline He saith againe Art 4. 5. That we say that the Sacraments and some other Church Ordinances are to be administred and doe belong only to the members of the same Church and not to the members of any other Churches Hee speakes flatly contrary to this cap. 10. Art 1. in these words Answ We grant that severall Churches have a communion amongst themselves in some Church-ordinances as Sacraments how can both be true They hold and they hold not They do they do not speaking still of the Churches of New England generally without the least restraint or distinction yea as if hee had studied to make his contradiction full he expresly and in both parts of it mentioneth the Sacraments that wee deny communion in speciall in Sacraments and we grant a communion in speciall in the Sacraments and againe this communion saith he is neither betwixt Ministers nor members and this communion is both betwixt Ministers and members And both of them within a leafe one of the other in his booke W. R. himselfe must of necessity grant one of these three things either 1 a manifest contradiction by himselfe in a maine point in his story Or 2. that his Authors or intelligences have written or spoken contrary concerning our way And so a man would thinke hee hath little ground in conscience to build his Narration upon their testimony Or thirdly that hath abused them at his pleasure and warped their words to what sense he list all which are very ill in a Narrator Furthermore I here confidently avouch and shall make it good that those printed writers by him cited are all consistent to themselves in this point of administration of Sacraments to members of other Churches and not one of them crossing another or himself Therefore I must againe but with griefe of heart to lay such load on a brother lay this dealing upon him in the sight of all that have beene misled by his Narration Nay I will say more If I can not prove plainly that these Authors cited doe not only not justifie him but write point-blanck against him I will beare the blame vid. Ans 9. Pos 62. We doe not say they appropriate the seales only to members of our own Church excluding all other Churches of Christ and Cot. Cat. p. 7. The supper saith he is dispenced to the faithfull of the same body or recommended to them by a like body and Ans to 9. Pos 78. in these words The members of other Churches doe mutually communicate at each others Churches even as often as Gods providence leades them and they desire it Lastly if all this be not enough to open his abusing us the truth I will go further to shew you that he still cites the very same Author to prove both parts of this contradiction and this is no new thing but frequent with him For in cap. 9. Art 1. he cites Ans to 9. Pos 62. to prove we hold communion with other Churches and their members and also cap. 10. 1. he cites the same Author and page for one Churches communion with another in the Sacrament But herein Art 5. when hee would prove the contrary i. e. that we hold no communion with other Church members in the Sacrament he brings the selfe same Author and page for that end i. e. Ans to 9. Pos pag. 62 c. And thus he doth not with that mentioned one Author only but serves the rest in like manner as Ans to 32. q. Apol. R.M. to E.B. must all come in to avouch both parts of his contradiction the one in chap. 10. 1. for communion the other in Art 4. 5. of this 9. chap. against Communion And this he doth not this once onely but in other places in this booke as we have shewed and shall againe and yet these Authors give him no occasion thereto but speake all the selfe same thing plainely and constantly without any variation He saith Art 7. We hold that a man that is sui juris may not lawfully stand a member of such a Church in which he cannot enioy all Gods ordinances or where any corruption is suffered but if he be ioyned to it he must separate from it Answer The Narratour knowes in his owne conscience that this is not spoken by his cited Author of our Churches in New-England but of the Parish Churches in Old-England nor of all the Churches in Old-England but of such onely where a man either cannot enjoy some ordinances of God or else live there without sinfull conformity for this was written by his Author in the time of the Bishops reigne 2. He alters the Authors words and meaning and that grossely for hee saith we hold a man must not continue in such a Church where any corruption is suffered unreformed But his Author saith in such parish assemblies where a man shall and must himselfe conforme to those corruptions there his standing is unlawfull Ans to 32. q. 32. So hee leaves out the very nerves and strength of the place which is the ground of our both with drawing i. e. a necessity of sinning You find him againe strongly pleading for imposed formes of Prayer Leiturgies Art 8. with it's Marg. This is the fourth time he hath harped on this string 1. he was for Overtures 2. for a kinde of N. E. Primer in admissions of members 3. for booke prayers 4. now and that more fully then before for imposed prayers and set Leiturgies whither he will goe next I know not If God had not pittifully left him to himselfe in this Narration I am confident he would not have come thus farre as to have used such arguments as these that if we in New-England allow set formes of Psalmes and of blessings of the people and formes of Church-covenants and of Catechising c. Why not as well set formes of prayers imposed But to this having answered before I leave him to the Father of truth to shew him his error Answer to CHAP. X. ARt 1. he saith and that truely Wee grant that severall Churches have a communion amongst themselves whereby they doe and may partake with each other in the Sacraments Of the contradiction betweene this and and chap. 9. Art 4 5. Answ it is spoken to already Only here note 1 the fulnes of affirmation in this Art for our communion with other Churches in the Sacrament we have saith he a communion amongst our selves 2 in the Sacraments in speciall 3 with severall Churches 4 we do and may partake 5 each with other 6 mutually 7 and this both betwixt Ministers and people 8 we not only practise this but grant
2. That good Ministers are laid aside there 2. many good Ministers 3 on this ground because they aime at men of special abilities And whereas he saith he was told so that is not sufficient Let him produce his Authors or it must lie on him I wonder he counts it strange in Art 3. that we should desire to have a man to be a Member before he be an Officer Is it not a thing most naturall for a body to imploy it's own Members Answ 2. Is not the mutuall interest in each other the stronger tye â— Doe not all bodies and societies in the world the very same Was eveâ— any man of another corporation elected Sheriffe Major or into any speciall office in London unlesse he were first seasoned with this same salt as he saith of Membership of the same body To the 4 Art of ordaining Ministers by private men Let him not wonder at this for Numb 8.10 he may see Answer that though the Levites were Church Officers and the Children of Israel were not yet the Children of Israel did lay their hands upon the Levites And though all the Children of Israel could not doe this yet some principall ones did it instead of the rest So it may be lawfull in some case to doe the like 2. If people have a power of election of Officers which is the greater then why may they not ordaine them which is the lesse unto the office which before they elected them to But I referre the Reader to see more of this in Mr. Mathers late answer to Mr. Herle pag. 45. To the 5. Art where he saith We hold the imposition of hands of the Presbyterie but a meere formality â—nswer Doth he judge all the Churches and Ministers of Christ there so devoyd of Religion reason or the light of common sense as to account a venerable Ordinance of God a meere formality But that you may see whether he deals well with us or no vid. Ans to 34. q. p. 67. where its expresly said That though the essence of a Ministers call consists in Election yet we looke at ordination by imposition of hands necesary by divine institution can he with any shew of reason explicate a thing necessary by divine institution by a meere formality is this right commenting upon the text And note also that this very place cited is one proofe he brings for this Article but whether for him or directly against him I pray judge For the other printed proofe discourse of Covenant p. 23. I confidently affirme there is not any one word or the least shew for such an expression let the Reader prove whether I wrong him or no but only that people have power to choose their own Officers Let him not delude the world by thwacking quotations on his Articles when it 's an usuall thing that some of them speake nothing for him others directly against him In Margent of 5. Art he saith That all that are elected by thâ— people to preaâ—h which is one chiefe duty of the Pastour and doe receive by compact the dues by law to the Pastour â—â—uld be their Pastour Ans Though preaching by a Pastour called into office be one of the principall workes of his office yet all preaching is not a Pastorall worke as Act. 8.4 The scattered Church without respect to an office are said to preach the word every where Now if a man be called by a congregation to exercise his gift in this worke of preaching only and not to be a Pastour to them should he not exceed the bounds of his call if he should be as W. R. would have him a Pastour to that people And by this reason also he condemnes all Lecturers and I suppose himselfe in so doing for they are called to preach yet no man lookes on them or they on theÌ„selves as Pastours of that place where they so exercise As for the dues he receives for his preaching whether more or lesse by a compact or otherwise whether of the same kind with the Pastour or not is not materiall for it 's his call not his wages makes him a Pastour or no Pastour In the Marg. of the 6. Art he saith that one Pastour or Teacher alone or one private man layes on his hands It hath neither proofe nor truth Answ but is against our judgements and practise and so I leave him to looke over such ungrounded and loose speeches cast upon our way Art 7. That in our practise we usually confound the Pastours Teachers office the Pastour and Teacher equally teaching and applying the word without any difference This hath no more truth then the other Answer for it is both our professed judgements and constant practise that as the teacher is chosen whose proper gift is aptnesse to teach so after hee is chosen hee bends himselfe that way and waites upon teaching so the Pastor upon exhotting as Rom. 12.7 8. Though in such congregations where there is but one hee labours to improve his talent both waies for the present necessity till that defect be supplyed as good reason he hath so to doe And for his proofe see how punctuall he is he turnes us to Mr. Cot. Sermons on the Revel and other Texts Would he have us looke over all Master Cot. Sermons which may be at least 500. or 1000 pages to find his proofes and when we have done we shall be just where we were for Mr. Cot. we know is expresly contrary to him and for that we turne him not to all his Sermons as he doth us but to one certaine place in his Cat. p. 2. whose words are these The Pastors speciall worke is to attend upon exhortation The Teacher on Doctrine and his owne and others practises there run accordingly In the Marg. to this Article he saith That some of us doe question the Communion of Churches as a thing overthrowing some of our principles 2 that others to uphold it have invented a power in one Minister to translate his owne power to another Minister to administer the seales and censures to any of their members Both these are ungrounded unproved expressions Answ and but repealed by him now answered before by us therefore I passe them by As for that Inference he seemes to drawe that every Ministeriall act without power and irregularly done it seemes voyd and so millions of persons unbaptised to this day This might have beene spared for that maxim in law well approved of by Divines in this case quod fieri non debuit factum valâ—t holds good here Answ I know no grounds that Zipporah had to have circumcised her sonne for it was proper to the man as Gen. 17.9.23 yet being done it was not void or null though a Priest popishly affected should baptise a child with many invented superstitious the child is not looked on as unbaptised To Art 9. he saith wee hold All other acts besides administration of the Sacraments are common to members as well as to Ministers Ans 1.
of error delivered before all the people So as it is a scandall to the people a reproach to the Minister c. all this is his own addition Then for the other cited Author Answer to 32 q. 78 he deales more grosely with him then the former who is in a manner point-blanck against him yet hee boldly gives him up for an Author his words are these we never knew any Minister that did call upon the people thus to doe i. e. to propound questions and such calling upon them is farre from us some thinke the people have a liberty to aske a question upon very urgent and weighty cause none iudge the ordinary practise of it necessary but if not meekely and wisely carried inconvenient if not utterly unlawfull and therefore such asking of questions is seldome used in any in most Churches neere True it is in the times of the opinions some were bold in this kinde but these men are long since gone the Synod and Sermons have reproved this disorder so that a man may now live from one end of the yeere to another in these congregations and not heare any man opening his mouth in such kind of questions These the Authors words ☞ Now good reader do us the favour to give righteous judgement whether these words cited by him make for him or against him where is 1 giving leave 2 a course of giving leave 3 to any 4 to obiect and urge pro and con and 6 which is horribly grosse to implead the Minister of error at the first dash and that openly before all the people c. Whereas his own cited Authors tells him the contrary 1 That it is done not often but seldome 2 Not many questions but a question 3 Not upon sleight but weighty and very urgent grounds 4 Not rashly and boldly but wisely and meekely 5 And this not perâ—mptorily concluded of by all but some only thinke they have a liberty 6 And not that it is now so much done but was for a time by the bold opinionist who are now chased away long agoe See what a vast gulfe betwixt the Author and W. R. Now for him to reade over distinctly all these expressions in this booke for that answer was written to himselfe from godly men in New-England yet to produce it as a proofe for his Art and the Marg. which in common sence is contrary to it I stand amazed at it and wonder with what face he could print it or having done it how he can let his book be kept from the fire thus long Yet further note our Narratour undertakes to relate only such Church-courses as are generally by the Churche in New-England practised as pag. 1. title How then can he with honesty bring in this asking of questions amongst such kind of generall Church courses of ours whereas his Author plainely saith this asking of questions is not Generally practised nor by all the Churches but sildome in any Church and in most Churches never at all and that one may live as he saith from one end of the yeere to another in our congregations and not here any man open his mouth in such kind of questions What will not W. R. boldly attempt against his brethren of the independent way and their Churches that cites these very words I have related to prove such Church courses in New-England as are generally practised amongst us Answer to CHAP. XIIII TO Marg. on the Title Some saith he grow shie of the word independent some utterly renounce it yet most owne it Answer If the word bee rightly taken as in Answer to 32. q. 46. it 's expounded for one Church that is not under the power of another or in subjection to a Presbyterie but as having received power from Christ to governe her selfe according to his lawes Then all accord to it But if the word Independent bee abusively taken as it is often with the vulgar for such a Society as are neither subject to Magistracy nor regard the counsel of other Churches but are a conceipted and selfe-sufficient people that stand onely on their owne leggs Then wee have cause to be shie of a word that may render us odious without cause To Marg. of 1 Art That wee have store of imperative Churches who may command yea compell both members and Ministers to act Ans Another slaunder without ground or proofe or truth which I leave here upon record God our consciences and our Brethren bearing us witnesse how tender our Churches are but to perswade men to act without light much more to command or compell both which very words though the thing required were lawfull are odious in the Churches of Christ most fitly becomming the Synagogues of Antichrist Hath hee a lycense to speake any thing To Art 2. We hold our Church power absolute and imperiall Answ All we use to speake of our Church-power is that it is ministeriall which is farre from absolute and imperiall words fitter for Emperours of this world then the Churches of the Saints I charge it on his conscience as in the sight of God either to make this appeare or else vindicate us as becomes an honest Christian to doe And for his two printed Authors cited for we cannot come at his private letters if there be any one word or shew of ground from them to maintaine his speech Let me beare the shame of it for I here avouch the contrary under my hand To Art 3. and Marg. That we deny all representation of Churches absent and all authoritative deputation of Messengers to act for them â—nsw 1. The Reader may well see it is his own saying not ours for he brings no proofe but from Barrow and Johnson who cannot well give in their testimony for our Church waies in New-England because they never came there yea were in their graves both or one long before ever wee had a beeing in New-England 2. There is no truth in it for we hold a Church may delegate some men and send them forth in their names and stead with authority to act for them in this or that particular businesse of trust as Act. 15.2 And yet he hath boldly now twise or thrise affirmed the same thing of us and brings no proofe at all for it and it is answered before cap. 2. Art 3. Marg. Yet some tells us saith he that Mr. P. and Mr. W. were sent hither by the Churches to negotiate for them c. Answ 1. Some tell us Sir you are a man of judgement and gravity able to instruct others You know you may not blemish your brethren and slâ—nder Churches upon such poore and weake grounds as it is reported I am informed some tell us And yet how oft in your booke have you used this course of dealing towards your bretbren and their Churches Some tell us indeede is warrant enough for people that have no other businesse to make three farthing bookes of and thereby fill the world with tales but oh farre be
could scarse have beleeved it possible hee should have written it no penne can expresse a greater latitude of opposition agaist Magistracy and lawes and Churches too then here he affirmes to be in us if you review the six parcells mentioned you will see it To all which I say 1 there is neither truth in it nor any proofe of all for any of these six except the first But God and men our consciences writings our professions and constant practises will rebuke testifie against this misreport For now you would in reason expect some proofes would you not for this accusation ☜ You shall heare his cited Author himselfe speake Answ to 32. q p. 35 36. which saith thus Observing the things commanded of God in a peaceable way yeelding due reverence to all in Authority I praying for them This observing Gods Ordinances cannot bee unlawfull for lacke of the command of man The scope of all his Author speakes is this That Christians may observe Gods Ordinances though they have no command from the Magistrate so to do now where is doing of this against his commands His peremptory command yea against his lawes and established lawes and not the lawes of an Heathen but a Christian State and not against a State only but against the mindes of all the Churches of God amongst us These are all his owne additions that so he might loade his brethren with contempt How durst he bring in all these words as his Authors and yet he knowes they all are his owne 2. As it is against truth and without ground â—o it is contrary to himselfe and his owne words Chap. 5. Art 2. and Art 4. where he expresseth that notice must bee and is given to the Magistrates and Churches before their joyning in Church fellowship Yet here in this Art he saith we hold 〈◊〉 and ought to doe it without their consents and against their minds how can thâ—se agree And whereas he quotes R. M. to prove that before Churches joynâ— they give notice thereof to the Magistrate and other Churches yet here he bring the same R. M to prove we may and doe joyne without their consent Let this also be noted that he speakes not only of our judgement what we hold we may and ought to doe in this case but of our practise also what we doe as appeares in last words of the Margent wee looke he should make that good also i. e. that in our practise wee doe thus oppose State and Churches in our joyning in Church fellowship 5. He againe crosseth himselfe for in this Art hee saith wee hold that Christians may ought to set up new Churches against the minds of other Churches and yet he in his Marg. saith that we deny them i. e. himselfe and some others any liberty to doe thus Ans He must prove either that we hold him and the rest no Christians or that we crosse our own rules and principles or else freely acknowledge a mistake in his word Thus having done with his Booke I should now come to the Postscript which I was fully purposed to have answered also But now seeing my booke farre beyond expectation swelling I should be loath to tire out the Reader besides I have touched upon many things therin already and the rest most of them being built upon his booke must of themselves fall with it and yet if it be requisite and worth the while I shall be ready to doe it when I see cause A Postscript to W. R. NOw I intreate you in the bowels of Christ and the spirit of meekenesse to review your own worke weigh my Answer without prejudice and consider well how many pretious Saints and godly Churches deare to Christ persecuted heretofore by Prelats loving to your selfe without their least stimulation of you in this kind you have in your Narration extremely wronged whether through over-much credulity incogitancie or otherwise I dispute not Sure I am it is done and so done that it is almost incredible as one would thinke but you should now at least see your error which if God shall open your eyes in whole or in part to doe as I humbly beseech him you may it will bee your honour â—xod 21. â—3 34. and no small argument of your selfe deniall to recall There was a law in Israel that he that digged a pit was not to leave it open but cover it else what ever dammage happened he was to make it good You are able to make application Solomon Austin c. never gained so much as by their retractations There are some sinnes God will not sense up the pardon of till satisfaction be made by the party Defamation is one of them It wil be no griefe of heart but much comfort to remember when you are about to leave this world that although through praecipitancy you did blemish your Brethren yet after consideration you did againe as readily wipe away the blot by a brotherly vindication as for as truth required which if â—â—â—ter conviction you shall for beare to do upon what pretence soever how will you be able to lye downe in your grave in peace FINIS