which the Holy Ghost has put in their Hearts with the Creed is not now in debate and 't is sufficient that we have seen in all the Baptiz'd a Belief of the Church which comes to them from GOD distinguisht from the Thought which comes to them from Men. This being so I affirm That to this Belief of the Church which the Holy Ghost puts in our Hearts with the Creed is fixt a firm Faith That we must believe this Church as certainly as the Holy Ghost to whom the Creed it self immediately joins her and that this Faith in the Church is the Cause the Believer never doubts of the Scripture I stopt a moment to ask whether I were understood Mr. Claude answer'd That he understood me perfectly And if it be so said I to him you ought to see the Inconvenience into which your Belief casts you and you ought also to see That I am not in the same by mine You not only say That we must not believe a false Church but that we must not even believe the true one without examining what she says and in this you speak against all other Christians Mademoiselle de Duras interpos'd saying in this place This is what must be answer'd by Ay or No. I said it indeed answer'd Mr. Claude and I did not stick to say it at first So much the better reply'd I. We shall soon see which of us two has Reason and in the clear State things have been put in by our reciprocal Discourses the Truth will soon appear on one side or other From the time you lay it down for certain That the Church even the true one may deceive us the Faithful cannot believe on the Churches sole Faith That the Scripture is the Word of GOD. He may believe it with an human Faith answer'd Mr. Claude but not with a divine Faith But human Faith reply'd I is always defective and doubting He doubts then whether the Scripture be inspir'd by GOD or no. Mr. Claude here pray'd me to remember what he had already said That he was not in Doubt but in Ignorance As a Man said he not skill'd in Diamonds being shewn one and askt whether he believes it to be good or bad knows nothing of it neither is he in Doubt but in Ignorance In like manner when a Master teaches some Opinion in Philosophy the Scholar who understands not yet what he means has no formal Doubt but is in a bare Ignorance So is it with those to whom the Holy Scripture is the first time given And I said I affirm That he doubts and that he who is not skill'd in Diamonds doubts whether that which is presented to him be good or bad and that the Scholar with Reason doubts of all his Master in Philosophy tells him till he sees it clear because he believes not his Master Infallible and by the same Reason he who believes not the Church Infallible doubts of the Truth of GODs Word which she proposes to him This is call'd Ignorance and not Doubt still said Mr. Claude And I made this Argument To doubt is not to know whether a thing be or not The Christian of whom we speak knows not whether the Scripture be true or no He is then in Doubt Tell me what is it to doubt but not to know whether a thing be or no To this there was no Answer but that this Christian did not in any manner doubt of the Scripture but was only ignorant of it But said I he is not like an Infidel who perhaps never heard any mention of it He knows That the Gospel of St. Matthew and St. Paul's Epistles are read in the Church as GODs Word and that none of the Faithful doubt it Can he believe with them as certainly as he believes GOD is That this Word is inspir'd by GOD You have said That he cannot make this Act of Faith He that cannot make an Act of Faith on an Article propos'd to him makes at least as I may so say an Act of Doubt Mr. Claude still answer'd That he was in a pure Ignorance And well let us leave contesting about Words He does not Doubt if you please but he knows not whether this Scripture be a Truth or a Fable he knows not whether the Gospel be an History inspir'd by GOD or a Tale invented by Men. He cannot then make an Act of Divine Faith upon this Point nor say I believe as GOD is that the Gospel is also from GOD. Do you not acknowledg That he cannot make this Act and that he has nothing but an human Faith He again freely confess'd That he knew nothing else Well Sir 't is enough In fine then there is a Point of Time when every Baptiz'd Christian knows not whether the Gospel be not a Fable This is given him to examin See to what we must come when we are set to examin after the Church We might discourse without end But we have said all that can be said on both sides and we should do nothing but begin again 'T is for every one to examin in his Conscience how he can maintain That a Baptiz'd Christian ought to have been a Moment without knowing whether the Gospel be a Truth or a Fable and that amongst other Questions which one may make in ones Life this also must be given him to examin It appear'd to me by the Countenance of Mademoiselle de Dwas that she understood 〈◊〉 I notwithstanding expected a little And Mr. Claude rose up Mademoiselle de Duras rose with us and coming to us said I could wish That before you broke up something might be said concerning the Separation The thing is done answer'd I. As soon as 't is certain That one cannot examin after the Church without falling into an insupportable Pride noâ— without doubting of the Gospel there is nothing more to be 〈◊〉 Every one need only consider whether he will doubt one Moment of the Gospel and also whether he finds himself capable to understand the Scripture better than all the Synods in the World and than all the rest of the Universal Church But since Mademoiselle desires some particular Instruction concerning the Separation I beseech you Sir give me a Moment more I shall propose to you essential Facts on which â—f I be not deceiv'd you must soon agree I ask you Sir Whether the Arians separated from the Church and whether their Sect when it appear'd was not new They did not said he separate from the Church they corrupted it He set himself to represent with a great deal of Exaggeration â—ow they drew with them the whole Church 'T is not so Sir said I You know That St. Athanasius St. Basil St. Gregory Nazianzen and many other Holy Bishops held for the Truth and that a great Body of People follow'd them You know That all the West and Rome it self notwithstanding the Fall of Liberius was Orthodox But let us leave all this said I to him in what Number soever they separated
some Truth She must keep and teach all Truth else she is not the Church Nor is it to any purpose to distinguish the fundamental Articles from the others For all that GOD has reveal'd must be retain'd He has reveal'd nothing to us that is not very important for our Salvation Isai xlviii v. 17. I am the Lord which teacheth thee profitable things In the Faith then which the Church teaches must be found the fulness of the Truths reveal'd by GOD Otherwise she is no longer the Church that JESUS CHRIST founded That particular Persons may be ignorant of some Articles I easily confess but the Church conceals nothing of what JESUS CHRIST has reveal'd And therefore the Faithful who are ignorant of certain Articles in particular confess them nevertheless all in general when they say I believe the Vniversal Church This said I is the Church which your Ministers know not They teach you that this visible and exterior Church may cease to be upon the Earth they teach you that she may err in her Decisions they teach you that to believe this Church is to believe Men But 't is not in this manner that the Church is propos'd to us in the Creed 'T is there propos'd to us to believe her as we believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and therefore the Faith of the Church is joyn'd with the Faith of the three Divine Persons These things having been said at several times but almost in this Order I added that our Doctrin on this Point was so true that the Pretended Reformed who deny'd it could not wholly reject it That is their Synods acted in such a manner as shew'd that they requir'd as well as we an absolute Submission to the Authority and Decrees of the Church Here I let Mademoiselle de Duras see the four Acts of the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion which I have taken notice of in the Exposition Article XX. She had read them there but I caused her to read them in the very Book of the Discipline The first is taken out of the Vth. Chapter Title of Consistories Article XXXI Where 't is said That Disputes about Doctrine should be determin'd by GODs Word if it might be in the Consistory if not the matter should be brought before the Colloquy thence to the Provincial Synod and in fine to the National where the full and final Resolution should be made by GODs Word to which if any one refus'd to submit with an express disclaiming of his Errors he should be cut off from the Church 'T is not then said I to GODs Word alone precisely as such that the full and final Resolution belongs since after it is propos'd an Appeal is permitted but to GODs Word in as much as explicated and interpreted by the Churches last Judgment The second Act is taken out of the Synod of Vitré related in the Book of the Discipline It contains the Letter of Mission which all the Churches make when they send Deputies to the National Synod See the Terms of it We promise before GOD to submit our selves to whatsoever shall be resolv'd in your Holy Assembly being perswaded that GOD will preside in it and guide you by his Holy Spirit in all Truth and Equity thrô the Rule of his Word This Perswasion said I if it be grounded only on an human Presumption cannot be the matter of so solemn an Oath by which they swear to submit to a Resolution they do not yet know It cannot then be founded but upon an express Promise That the Holy Ghost will preside in the last Judgment of the Church and Catholics say no more The third Act which is found also in the same Book of the Discipline is the Condemnation of the Independents on their saying That every Church ought to govern it self without dependance on any one in Ecclesiastical Matters This Proposition was in the Synod of Charenton declar'd as prejudicial to the State as to the Church 'T was there judg'd That it open'd the Door to all sorts of Irregularities and Extravagances took away all Remedies and made way for the forming as many Religions as Parishes But said I whatever Synods are held if we do not believe our selves oblig'd to submit our Judgments to them we cannot avoid the Inconveniences of the Independents and the leaving a Door open for the setting up as many Religions I do not say as there are Parishes but as there are Heads We must then come to this Obligation of submitting our Judgment to what the Catholic Church teaches These three Acts are taken out of the Book of the Discipline printed at Charenton in the year 1667. The fourth is found in a Book of Mr. Blondes's Intitled Actes Autentiques printed at Amsterdam by Blaeu in the year 1655. 'T is a Resolution of the National Synod of Sainte Foy 1578. which names four Ministers to meet at an Assembly where was to be treated a Re-union with the Lutherans by framing a Formulary of Profession of the common Faith Power was given to these Ministers to decide all Points of Doctrin and others that should be brought into Deliberation and to consent to this Confession of Faith even without communicating any farther about it with the Churches if the Time permitted not to do it From this Act I concluded two things One That the whole Synod trusted their Faith in the Hands of four private Persons a thing far more extraordinary than to see particulars submit to the whole Church The other That the Pretended Reformed Church is yet but little assur'd of her Confession of Faith since she consents to the changing it and that in Points so important as are those that make the Dispute with the Lutherans one of which is the Reality If the Pretended Reformed hop'd that the Lutherans would return to them there was no need of a new Confession of Faith What was then intended was That both the one and the other continuing in their Sentiments there should be fram'd a Confession of Faith in which both Parties might agree which could not be done without adding or suppressing something essential in a Confession of Faith which they give us as teaching only the pure Word of GOD. Mademoiselle de Duras acknowledged to me that having seen in my Treatise these Acts and my Reflections which are the same with these I now made she knew not what to answer to 'em and that therefore she desir'd to hear what Answer Mr. Claude would make as well upon these Acts as upon the other Difficulties that regarded the Authority of the Church I told her That thô those of her Religion acted as holding the Churches Authority infallible and indisputable yet 't was true That they deny'd this Infallibility and I added That 't was a constant Maxim in her Religion That every private Person how ignorant soever was oblig'd to believe That he could understand the Holy Scripture better than all the Councils and all the rest
decides nothing till it be first receiv'd and that JESVS CHRIST's was not so as yet since 't was in dispute whether they should receive it or reject it I am oblig'd to observe That assuredly I heard nothing of all this in the Conference and you will soon see that it were indeed better to be silent than to say such things But since Mr. Claude will have said them he must then also say that because JESUS CHRISTs Miracles were rejected as deceitful Signs by the Envious by the Obstinate in one word by the declar'd Enemies of the Truth These Miracles were not convincing enough to oblige Men to believe JESUS CHRIST on his Word without examining farther and that for Example after he had rais'd Lazarus in express Testimony John xi v. 42. That GOD had sent him those who beheld with their Eyes so great a Miracle were I do not say permitted but expresly oblig'd to examin whether JESVS CHRIST was sent by GOD. He must I say carry the necessity of the Examen to this excess Otherwise 't will be true as I have said That there was then a visible and palpable Authority to which every one ought to submit without examining so that there was never any time when Men were less expos'd to the Temptation of Pride by elevating themselves above all living and speaking Authority since JESVS CHRIST the most living and most speaking as well as the greatest and most infallible that ever was was then on the Earth and that they preferr'd not themselves before the Synagogue but by submitting to JESVS CHRIST whose Miracles as himself said took away all Excuse from those John xv v. 22 23 24. that believ'd not in him Which the Assembly that condemn'd him knew so well that they found no other Answer to his Miracles nor any other Means to resist him but to make him away and with him Lazarus also John xi v. 47. xii v. 10. to stifle if they could at once with the Miracles they had seen the Memory of him that wrought them They must not then here think to dazle People with frivolous Answers and make the Readers lose the Consequence of an Argument by bringing in unprofitable Questions I mean That 't is to no Purpose to start up here the Question concerning deceitful Signs nor to answer That the Synagogue doubted of the Truth of JESVS CHRIST's Miracles The Question is only to know whether this Doubt was not the Effect of an evident Malice and in fine whether it be not certain amongst Christians That there was in JESVS CHRIST's Miracles so full a Demonstration of the Divine Power and so clear a Confirmation of JESVS CHRIST's Mission that every reasonable Spirit was oblig'd to yield without any farther Examination so that there was then a living and speaking Authority to which there was nothing to be oppos'd but a gross Ignorance and a manifest Obstinacy This is the matter in Debate and if after this Explication of the Question they think still to escape by saying with Mr. Claude That JESUS CHRIST's Authority was not receiv'd they must go farther John viii v. 13. and say to JESUS CHRIST himself with the Jews Thou bearest Record of thy self thy Record is not true Then we will answer with JESUS CHRIST John viii v. 13 14 16 18. John v. v. 36. Thô I bear Record of my self yet my Record is true And again I am not alone but my Father that sent me bears also Witness of me And again The Works which the Father hath given me to finish the same Works that I do bear Witness of me that the Father hath sent me And in fine C. xv v. 22 24. They have no Cloak for their Sin If I had not done among them the Works which none other Man did they had not had Sin but now they have both seen and hated both me and my Father The meaning of this is That the Miracles are clear the Authority is incontestable and the Resistance can have no other Ground but a blind Hatred I expect they will yet answer me That JESUS CHRIST added after all this John v. v. 39. Search the Scriptures they are they which testify of me and that they will dare to conclude from thence how one might and ought to examine after JESUS CHRIST so that the Word he pronounc'd shews us not a superabundance of Conviction in the Scripture but an insufficiency of Authority in the Person of JESUS CHRIST If they make yet this Objection we have nothing to do but to hold our Peace and leave JESUS CHRIST to defend his own Cause In the mean time we will conclude That 't is JESUS CHRISTs Authority which we revere in his Church If we say the Church must be believ'd without examining 't is because JESUS CHRIST who teaches and guides her is above all Examen We will not forbear to say also in imitation of JESUS CHRIST Search the Scriptures We shall confound them by this Scripture which they say they believe and we shall see them also faint under this Examination but it shall be after we have forc'd them to acknowledge that we must submit without examining to the Churches Authority in which that Spirit whom JESUS CHRIST has sent to keep his place always speaks There is then nothing less to the Purpose than the Example of the Synagogue and our Pretended Reformed depriv'd of this Example which was their chiefest Strength continue alone to believe themselves every one in particular capable to understand the holy Scripture better than whatsoever in the Universe has Authority to interpret it and to judge of Doctrin and than all the Faithful that appear to them in the Worl'd Which is the Error of the Independents or something worse They will say That this private Person who examins after the Church shall always be well assur'd not to be alone in his Sentiment since there will always remain some secret elected one who will think as he does As if without refuting this Vision it were not a Pride detestable enough to set himself alone above all that is seen and heard to speak in the whole Church besides They will say again 'T is no Pride to believe ones self enlightned by the Holy Ghost But on the contrary 't is the height of Pride That particular Persons should dare to believe the Holy Ghost will instruct them and leave in Error all the Faithful that appear in the rest of the Church Nor is it to any purpose to answer as Mr. Claude does in his Relation John iii. v. 8. in his Relation That the Spirit bloweth where he will For they must shew that this Spirit which reposes on the Humble ceases not to breath on those who believe themselves alone more capable to understand the Scripture than all the rest of the Church since they examin after her and not only to breath upon them but himself also to inspire into them this proud Thought But in fine
to the private Persons that were never vested with it And what is Mr. Claude's Meaning Is it that these private Persons become of right Ministers without any Bodies having ordain'd them or that without being Ministers they have Right of their sole Authority to set up Ministers in the Church Let them shew me it in the Scripture or let them for ever renounce the Pretence of having the Scripture alone for Guide I find in the Scripture that JESVS CHRIST said to his Apostles As my Father sent me I also send you I find in the Scripture that the Apostles thus send others and consecrate themselves Successors But that all their Successors being on a sudden faln and depriv'd of the right of their Ministery this Ministery should of right return to the Faithful to whom none had ever given it to dispose of at their Pleasure neither has the Scripture said nor following Ages imagin'd 'T is then a Monster the Birth of which was reserv'd for the time of the new Reformation The Ministery say they belongs of right to the Church It does without doubt belong to the Church as the Eyes do to the Body The Ministery is not for it self no more are the Eyes The Ministery is establisht to be the Light of the Church as the Eyes are the Light or as JESVS CHRIST calls them the Torch of the Body Does it follow that when the Body has lost its Eyes it can remake them of it self No without doubt it will have need of the Hand which made them at first and there will never be any thing but a new Creation which can repair the Work that the first Creation had form'd In this manner if the Catholick Church could as they would imagin in the new Reformation lose all on a sudden all its Ministers without their having given themselves Successors according to the Order of JESVS CHRIST JESVS CHRIST must come again on Earth to re-establish this sacred Order by a new Creation They will indeed find in the Bosom of the Roman Church these true Believers of which the Reformed Church was at first compos'd why will they not in the same manner detach the Pastors of this Reformed Church from the Pastors which were in Office in the Roman Church The Ministery is to be mixt as the People and is to have always good Pastors amongst the Bad as there are always true Believers amongst the false Christians Why then were they fain to say in the new Reformation and in the XXXI Article of their Confession of Faith that the State of the Church was interrupted Why were they fain to have recourse to these People extraordinarily rais'd to build anew the Church which was in ruin and desolation 'T is that they were fain to speak not according to what ought to be done in the Order establisht by JESVS CHRIST but according to what was done against all Order 'T is that the new Reformation was made of Pastors who in effect held nothing from the Pastors that were before and therefore they were necessitated even against their Wills to attribute to them thô without proof an extraordinary Vocation But in truth Reason requir'd something else and why then did they not speak according to Reason except it were once again that they were fain to accommodate not what was done to the Rule but the Rule to what was done But will they say if any Church for example the Greek Church shews us the Succession of her Pastors will you hold it for a true Church By no means if I can shew in it Marks of Innovation which it cannot deny as I should do without much trouble if it were in question But with our Reformed the Proof is made since themselves confess the Interruption we charge them with Mr. Claude palliates as well as he can this interrupted State of the Church so punctually acknowledg'd in her Confession of Faith We distinguish After the 4. q. 7. Conseq says he the Church from her State The Church are the true Believers who make Profession of the Christian Truth of Piety and of a real Sanctity under a Ministery which furnishes them with the Aliments necessary for the Spiritual Life without depriving them of any one Her natural and legitimate State is to be discharg'd as much as the Condition of militant can permit from the impure mixture of prophano Persons and Worldings not to be cover'd and as it were bury'd by this Chaff and these Tares whence a thousand Evils come upon her as to have a Ministery free from Errors from false Worships from superstitious Practices a Ministery possess'd by good People who keep at by good ways and serve themselves for good example 'T is this State of the Church which we say was interrupted Why does he load himself with so many Words and because they are pompous not observe that they are vain not to say deceitful and manifestly contrary to the Gospel For can one more clearly impose on People than by exaggerating as is here done this Ministery possest by good people who keep it by good ways and serve themselves for good Example Is it that the Authority of the Ecclesiastical Ministery dupends on the Discussion of the Life and good Example of those who are vested with it and that thô they should be as scandalous and perverse as the Scribes and Pharisees we must not still say not with JESVS CHRIST they sit in Moses Chair but what is much more august Matt. 23. v. 2. they are in the Chair of JESVS CHRIST and his Apostles Let us leave nevertheless these things and come to this interrupted State of the XXXI Article which Mr. Claude undertakes here to explicate to us This interrupted State of the Church is alledg'd here to found the necessity of an extraordinary Vocation in the Pretended Reformers for let us hear how this Article speaks It has been sometimes necessary and namely in our days in which the State of the Church was interrupted that GOD should raise up people after an extraordinary manner to set up the Church anew You see Gentlemen this interrupted State of the Church is alledg'd only to found the extraordinary Vocation of your Pretended Reformers But to found the Necessity of an extraordinary Vocation 't is not sufficient that the Ministery is impure it must have ceased When you came Gentlemen had this Ecclesiastical Ministery ceas'd By no means will Mr. Claude answer you for then the Church would have ceas'd since the Church according to him as you just now heard is nothing else but the true Believers who make Profession of the Truth UNDER A MINISTERY which furnishes her with necessary Aliments And he has already told us that the Church is never without the Ministery Wherefore in this place where he endeavours to give an Account of this interrupted State after he has by so many fine Words set forth the Impurity which he imagins in the Ministery before the Reformation The Church adds he ceas'd
CHRIST would have her alwaies visibly subsist he has cloth'd her with sensible Marks which are always to continue For see how he sends his Apostles and what he says to 'em at his ascending into Heaven Go ye therefore and teach all Nations Matt. xxviii v. 19 20. baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you And lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World Teaching with you baptizing with you instructing with you my Faithful to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded consequently exercising with you in my Church an exterior Ministery 'T is with you 'T is with those who shall succeed you 'T is with the Society assembled under their Conduct that I shall be from this present even to the Consummation of the World alway without Interruption For there shall not be any one Moment in which I will leave you but thô absent in Body I will be always present by my Holy Spirit In Consequence of this Word St. Paul also tells us that the Ecclesiastical Ministery shall last without any Discontinuance till the general Resurrection He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all Heavens Eph. iv v. 10 11 12 13. that he might fill all things And he gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the Work of the Ministry for the Edifying of the Body of CHRIST Till we all come in the Vnity of the Faith and of the Knowledge of the Son of GOD unto a perfect Man unto the measure of the Stature of the fulness of CHRIST That is to say till we have attain'd the Perfection of JESUS CHRIST glorify'd in Body and Soul This is the Term which GOD has set to the Ecclesiastical Ministery The Pretended Reformed will not have the visible Church to be that which is call'd JESUS CHRISTs Body Which is then that Body where GOD has establish'd some Apostles some Prophets and some Pastors and Teachers Which is that Body where GOD has plac'd several Members and different Graces Rom. xii v. 4 c. The Grace of Ministery the Grace of Teaching the Grace of Exhortation and Consolation the Grace of Ruling Which I say is that Body if it be not the visible Church But that which makes the Pretended Reformed unwilling to acknowledge that the Body of JESUS CHRIST so much recommended in the Scripture can be the visible Church is their being constrain'd to say that the visible Church sometimes ceases to be upon the Earth and they have an Horror to say that JESUS CHRISTs Body is not always for fear of putting JESUS CHRIST once again to death 'T is then without Difficulty this Assembly of Pastors and People 't is this Church compos'd of so many divers Members by whom so many Holy Ministeries are exteriorly exercis'd 't is this that is called JESUS CHRISTs Body 't was to this Body assembled under the Ministery of Pastors that he said at his ascending into Heaven Lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World He then that descended is the same that ascended to the end he might fill all things Heaven by his Person and his visible Presence Earth by his Spirit and his invisible Assistance both the one and the other by his Truth and his Word And 't was for to continue at his ascent into Heaven this Assistance promis'd to his Church that he plac'd some Apostles some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers A thing which must last till such time as the Work of GOD is entirely accomplish'd till we are all perfect Men and till the whole Body of the Church be arriv'd at the Fulness and Perfection of JESUS CHRIST Thus JESUS CHRISTs Work is eternal on the Earth The Church founded on the Confession of the Faith shall always be and always confess the Faith Her Ministery shall be eternal She shall bind and loose even to the end of the World Hell never being able to hinder her she shall never discontinue the Teaching of Nations The Sacraments that is the exterior Liveries with which she is clad shall last for ever Teach and baptize the Nations 1. Cor. xi v. 26. and I shall be alway with you As often as ye eat this Bread and drink this Cup ye do shew the Lords Death till he come With the Supper shall last the Confession of the Faith the Ecclesiastical Ministery and the exterior and interior Communion of the Faithful with JESUS CHRIST and of the Faithful amongst themselves till such time as JESUS CHRIST comes The duration of the Church and of the Ecclesiastical Ministery has no other Limits 'T is not then only the Society of the Predestinate that shall subsist for ever 't is the visible Body in which the Predestinate are included which preaches to them which teaches them which regenerates them by Baptism which nourishes them by the Eucharist which administers to them the Keys which governs them and keeps them united under Discipline which forms JESUS CHRIST in them 'T is this visible Body that shall subsist for ever And 't is for this reason that in the Apostles Creed where the Grounds of the Faith are propos'd to our Belief we are at the same time taught to believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and to believe the Holy Catholic Church and the Communion of Saints The interior Communion by Charity and in the Holy Ghost who animates us I acknowledge it but at the same time also the exterior Communion in the Sacraments in the Confession of Faith and in all the exterior Ministery of the Church And all that we have now said is included in this Word I believe the Vniversal Church We believe her at all times she is then always We believe her at all times she always then teaches the Truth Your Ministers will have us believe that 't is one thing to believe the Church that is to believe that she is and another thing to believe or give credit to the Church that is to believe all her Decisions But this is a frivolous Distinction He who believes that the Church always is believes that she is always confessing and teaching the Truth 'T is to this Church which confesses the Truth that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd Hell shall not prevail against her The Truth then shall never fail to be confess'd in her and consequently in believing that she is we are assur'd that she is always credible In effect the retaining some Points of JESUS CHRIST's Doctrine is not sufficient to preserve the Name of Church For then the Arians the Pelagians the Donatists the Anabaptists and the Socinians would be of the Church They are not however GOD forbid that we should call this Confusion by the Name of Church The Church must not then only keep
common Faith but only of Establishing this Toleration by a Synodal Decree as had been done at Charenton Mr. Claude answer'd that the Point of Doctrin to be decided was Whether a mutual Toleration might be establisht and that the Confession of common Faith would have done nothing else but declar'd this Toleration Which he deny'd not but it might be done in a Synod as I must grant that it might also be done in a Confession of Faith where there should have been an express Article to that purpose I answer'd him That this could never be call'd a Confession of common Faith and askt him Whether he thought the Lutherans or they should have retrench'd any thing of what the one said for the Reality and the other against it He answer'd me No. And then said I each party would have continu'd in the Terms of their own Confession of Faith having nothing common but the Article of Toleration There were said he many other Points in which we agreed 'T is granted answer'd I but 't was not about these Points the Accord was to be made the Question was about the Reality and some others on which there could not be made a Confession of common Faith except one of the Parties chang'd or both agreed upon ambiguous Expressions which each might draw to their own Opinions a thing that had been oft attempted as Mr. Claude himself could not but owne He granted it and related also the Assembly of Marbourg and some others held for that purpose I concluded then That I had reason to believe the Synod of Sainte Foy had a like Design and that 't would have been to mock the World to call that a Confession of common Faith which should have made appear such manifest oppositions on so important Points of the Christian Doctrin To which I farther added 't was so much the more certain That a Confession of Faith was as I said really in agitation in that the Lutherans having already several times declar'd against a Toleration there was nothing to be expected from them but by the Means of which I spake The Matter rested there and I only said That every one need but consider what he ought to think in his Conscience of a Confession of Faith which a whole National Synod had consented to change When Mr. Claude was saying That the Oath of submitting to the National Synod included a Condition I had interrupted him by putting in a word Yes said I they hop'd well of the Synod yet without certainty and expecting the Event they forbare not to swear they would submit Mr. Claude telling me here That I interrupted him and praying me to let him say all I held my peace But after the Affair of Sainte Foy was discuss'd I said to him That I thought it necessary before we pass'd any farther I should tell him in a few words what I had conceiv'd of his Doctrin to the end we might not speak in the air I said then to him You say Sir That these Words Being persuaded that GOD will preside in it and guide you by his Holy Spirit in all Truth and Equity thrô the Rule of his Word are only an honest manner of proposing a Condition He agreed it Let us then said I reduce the Proposition into a conditional one and we shall see what will be the sense of it I swear to submit to all you shall decide on this Supposition or Condition That what you shall decide be agreeable to GODs Word Such an Oath is nothing else but a manifest Illusion as signifying nothing and being but what I might make to Mr. Claude or he to me But in this there would not be any thing serious and 't is to be observ'd that something more particular must be aim'd at since this Oath is only made to the Synod which gives the final determination thô in Mr. Claude's Sense there were as much Reason to make it to the Consistory to which they ought to submit as well as to the Synod supposing it has the Word of GOD for its Guide In this place I held my peace a little and seeing that there was not a word said I went on thus But in fine then Sir if I well understand your Doctrin you believe That a private person may doubt of the Churches Judgment even when she gives her final Determination No Sir answer'd Mr. Claude 't is not to be said That one may doubt there being all the Likelihood in the World that the Church will judge well He that says Likelihood Sir reply'd I immediatly says a manifest Doubt But said Mr. Claude There is more for JESUS CHRIST having promis'd that those who would seek should find since 't is to be presum'd they will seek well 't is to be also believ'd they will judge well and in this assurance there is something indubitable But when there shall be seen in Councels Cabals Factions different Interests it may with reason be doubted Whether in such an Assembly there will not be mixt something human and doubtful Pray Sir said I let us set aside what is good for nothing but to throw dust in ones Eyes All you say of Cabals Factions Interests is absolutely to no purpose and consequently serves only to perplex There is nothing said Mr. Claude more to the purpose And I affirm answer'd I That your self will grant there 's nothing less to the purpose For I ask you Sir Supposing there should appear in the Councel neither Factions nor Cabals supposing also one were assur'd that there were not any and that all pass'd in Order must one receive the Decision without examining it He was fain to answer No. Whence I immediatly concluded I had then reason to say That all you alledg'd as very considerable concerning Factions and Cabals was in the bottom only an Amusement and in fine that a private person a Woman any ignorant Fellow whatever he is may believe and ought to believe that he may happen to understand GODs Word better than a whole Councel thô assembled from the four quarters of the World and than all the rest of the Church Yes said he 't is so I repeated twice or thrice the Proposition he had granted adding still some stronger Circumstance but evidently contain'd in what was accorded What said I better than all the rest of the Church together and than all her Assemblies thô compos'd of the holiest and most illuminated persons in the Universe For all these are still but men after whom according to your Doctrin every one ought still to examin A private person shall believe that he may have more Grace more Light in fine more of the Holy Ghost than all the rest of the Church All this must pass and I might have added more than all the Fathers more than all the past Ages reckoning immediatly from the Apostles times But proceeded I if it be so how do you avoid the Inconveniences of the Independents and what Means has the Church left to hinder the
Memory Let us come to the time when the Christian has the use of Reason and when he can make an Act of Faith By what shall he begin but by what he began to be instructed He believes then the Universal Church before he believes the Scripture In effect make I do not say a Child but any Man whosoever read the Canticle of Canticles in which there is not the least mention of GOD either good or bad In good earnest He believes this Book inspir'd by GOD only because of the Tradition First of the Synagogue and Secondly of the Christian Church that is in one word through the Authority of the Universal Church But let us keep to our Point Let us consider the Christian in the Moment when the Holy Scripture is propos'd to him as the Word of GOD. 'T is the Holy Ghost which makes him believe it we are agreed on that Point But we dispute about the exterior Means of which the Holy Ghost makes use I say That 't is the Church since 't is she in effect which proposes to him the Holy Scripture since he believ'd the Church before he heard of the Scripture since at his opening the Scripture he is in Condition to say I believe this Scripture as I believe that GOD is You say That he cannot make this Act of Faith He is then no Believer and his Baptism is of no use to him We must instruct him as an Infidel saying to him Here is the Scripture which I believe inspir'd by GOD read it Child examin it see whether it be the very Truth or a Fable The Church believes it inspir'd by GOD but the Church may be deceiv'd and thou art not in condition to make with her this Act of Faith As I believe that GOD is so I believe that he himself inspir'd this Scripture If this manner of Instructing strikes an Horror into Christians and leads manifestly to Impiety the Christian must be able at first to make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture propos'd to him by the Church he must consequently believe That the Church is not deceiv'd in giving him this Scripture A◠he receives from her the Scripture he receives from her the Interpretation of it and she no more exercises Dominion over the Consciences in obliging her Children to believe her Interpretations without examining than she does in obliging us to believe without examining the Scripture it self By this Argument Sir reply'd Mr. Claude you would make every one conclude in Favor of his Church The Greeks the Armenians the Ethiopians we our selves whom you believe to be in error we are nevertheless Baptiz'd we have by Baptism both the Holy Ghost and this Faith infus'd of which you have been speaking Every one of us has receiv'd the Holy Scripture from the Church in which he was baptiz'd every one believes his to be the true Church declar'd in the Creed and at the first he even knows not any other Now if as we have receiv'd without examining the Holy Scripture from the Hand of that Church in which we are we must also as you say receive blindfold all its Interpretations 't is an Argument to conclude That every one ought to continue as he is and that every Religion is good This was in truth the strongest Objection that could be made and thô the Solution of this Doubt appear'd clear to me I was in pain how I might render it clear to those who heard me I spake with trembling seeing it concern'd the Salvation of a Soul and I besought GOD who made me see the Truth so clearly That he would give me Words to express it fully and plainly For I had to do with a Man who heard patiently spake clearly and strongly and in fine pusht the Difficulties to the utmost points I told him I must first distinguish their Case from that of the Greeks Armenians and others he had nam'd who indeed err in taking a false Church for the true but believe at least as indubitable That the true Church wheresoever she is must be believ'd and that she never deceives her Children You are said I to him much farther off for I can lay to your Charge That you do not only like the Greeks and Ethiopians take a false Church for a true but what is undeniable and what you your self confess That you will not have us even believe the true After this Distinction which seem'd necessary to me let us come to your Difficulty Let us distinguish in the Belief of the Greeks and other false Churches what there is of Truth what they have in common with the true Universal Church in a word what comes from GOD from that which comes from human Prejudice GOD by his Holy Spirit puts in the Heart of those who are baptiz'd in these Churches That there is a GOD and a JESUS CHRIST and an Holy Ghost Hitherto there is no Error all this is from GOD Is it not true He agreed it They believe also That there is an Universal Church Are they not right in this and is it not a Truth reveal'd by GOD that there is one indeed I expected his Acknowledgment and after he had given it I added That the Greeks and Ethiopians were dispos'd to believe without examining whatever the true Church propos'd to ' em This is what you approve not Sir in this you are separated from all other Christians who unanimously believe That there is a true Church which never deceives her Children I who believe this with them reckon this Belief amongst the things which come from GOD But see where the human Prejudices begin This Baptiz'd being seduc'd by his Parents and Pastors believes the Church in which he is to be the true and attributes in particular to this false Church all that GOD makes him believe in general of the true 'T is not the Holy Ghost that puts this in his Heart Is it not true 'T is without doubt true In this place he begins to believe amiss Here Error begins here the Divine Faith infus'd by the Holy Ghost begins to be lost Happy are those in whom the human Prejudices are joyn'd with the true Belief which the Holy Ghost puts in their Heart They are exempt from a great Temptation and the terrible Pain there is to distinguish that which is from GOD in the Faith of their Church from that which is from Men. But whatever Difficulty Men have to distinguish these things GOD knows them and distinguishes them and there will be an eternal Difference between that which his Holy Spirit puts in the Heart of the Baptiz'd when he interiorly disposes them to believe the true Church and that which human Prejudices have added to it by fixing their Spirit to a false one How these Baptiz'd may afterwards disentangle these things and by what means they may get out of the Prepossession that has made them confound the Idea of the false Church in which they are with the Faith of the true Church
there was a Church before them from which they brake and against which they set up another Church No said he They corrupted it Ha Sir reply'd I What Difficulty is this Never any Hereticks separated but by corrupting some of the Churches Children and separating with them from the Church in which they had all been baptiz'd But in fine tell me Sir Was not the Sect of the Arians and that Church which is nam'd the Arian new If you mean Sir answered he That Arius was the first who spake against the Divinity of the Son of GOD 't is not true Origen before him and Justin Martyr said the same thing Ha Sir said I That a Martyr deny'd the Divinity of GGDs Son is what I shall never believe As to Origen you know that he is alledg'd both for and against it He is an ambiguous and suspected Author But Sir let us leave uncertain Facts And let us endeavour to find one about which both you and I may agree That Sect which after the Condemnation pronounc'd against Arius join'd with this excommunicated Priest and form'd a Church against the Church was it not new He could not but grant it To prove its Newness continu'd I was there any need of ascending up to the Apostles and could not one say to it Church separated from that other Church in which Arius was born and in which he receiv'd Baptism you were neither yesterday nor the day before One might said Mr. Claude May one not say as much of the Macedonian Church which deny'd the Divinity of the Holy Ghost of the Nestorians who divided JESUS CHRISTs Person of the Eutychians that confounded his two Natures and of the Pelagians who deny'd Original Sin and the Grace of JESUS CHRIST Might one not say to them without ascending up to the Apostles When you came into the World you found the Church baptizing Children unto Remission of Sins and praying for the Conversion of Sinners and Infidels What then all these Hereticks and all the rest whom you and we know oppugned was believ'd not only from the Apostles time but yesterday and the day before and at the time when these Heresiarchs came and they found the Church in this Belief But answer'd Mr. Claude There are two ways of establishing Error the one open and the other secret and insensible Stay Sir said I to him we ought to propose evident Facts which both Parties agree I do not agree this insensible way of establishing Error Ha Sir said he will you say That you shall find praying to Saints and Purgatory in the Apostles times No Sir answer'd I I will say nothing about them for you will not agree it and I will say such things as you may agree Deal in the same manner with me He that shall draw most solid Advantages from Facts granted by his Adversary will have a great Argument that the Truth is for him For 't is the Property of Truth to keep it self upon all sides and to condemn Error by Facts which Error it self acknowledges And since you mention Prayer to Saints you are sincere is it not true that Mr. Daillé grants us thirteen hundred Years Antiquity Thirteen hundred Years Sir answer'd he is not the whole time of the Church I agree it said I to him but in fine my Adversary grants me already thirteen hundred Years he gives me St. Gregory Nazianzen St. Basil St. Ambrose St. Hierom St. Chrysostom St. Augustin All these said Mr. Claude are but Men. Let them be Men as much as you please But in fine we have from our Adversaries Confession thirteen hundred Years for Invocation of Saints and Veneration of Relicks for these two things were joyn'd together as you know Mr. Daillé asserts And how much does Mr. Blondel grant for Prayer for the Dead 'T is true said Mr. Claude That this is the antientest Error of the Church Fourteen hundred Years Antiquity said I to him is what Mr. Blondel yields us I say not this to create a Prejudice for the Truth of our Doctrin that is not the matter in hand But I say it to shew That we are not without Defence upon these Examples of Errors insensibly spread since we already have by your Consent thirteen hundred and fourteen hundred Years Let us come then to evident Facts on which I may agree For as for you you agree That the Arians Nestorians Pelagians and in one word all Hereticks were establisht as I have said They found not any Church to which they united themselves They erected one which was separated from all the other Churches that then were This is certain Is it not manifest I expected Mr. Claude contradicted it not I thought not my self oblig'd to press him any farther upon a thing evident and already own'd Now said I to him how were the Orthodox Churches establisht When particular Persons and People for Example the Indians were converted found they not a Church already establisht to which they united themselves He acknowledg'd it Did you went I on find one in the whole World to which you join'd your selves Did you embrace the Greek the Armenian or the Ethiopian Church when you forsook the Roman Can we not mark you the precise Date of your Churches and say to all that Church to all that exterior Society in which you are Minister you were not yesterday But said Mr. Claude here were we not of this Church We went not out we were driven out of it We were Excommunicated in the Council of Trent Thus we went forth But we carried the Church with us What Discourse is this Sir said I to him If you had not been driven out would you have staid in it To what purpose then is that Command so often repeated amongst you Go forth of Babylon my People Tell me sincerely Would you have staid in the Church if she had not driven ye out No sure Sir said Mr. Claude To what purpose then answer'd I do you say here That you were driven out Because said he it is true And well Sir proceeded I it is true This is common to you be not displeas'd at what I am going to say this is common to you with all Hereticks The Church in which they receiv'd Baptism cast them forth Excommunicated them They would perhaps have willingly stay'd in it to corrupt and seduce but the Church cut them off And as to what you say That you were in this Church which cast you out and that you carry'd the Church with you what Heretick may not say as much 'T was not of Heathens that the Ancient Hereticks compos'd their Churches 't was of Christians bred in the Church You also have not form'd yours by amassing Mahometans I agree it But in this you do not outgo the Examples of the ancient Hereticks and they were all able to say as well as you That they were condemn'd by their Adversaries For they were not made to sit amongst the Judges when their Novelty was condemn'd But Sir reply'd Mr.
however it is and without disputing any farther since this is no place for it we have shewn that 't is a Doctrin acknowledg'd in the new Reformation That every particular Person ought to examin after the Church and consequently ought to believe That he may happen to understand the Scripture better than she and all her Assemblies Those that abhor this Presumption or that upon Examination find not in themselves this false Capacity have no more to do but to seek their Salvation in another Church than that in which so prodigious a Doctrin is profess'd The Third REFLECTION On another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference An Explication of the manner of Instructing Christians and That the Churches infallible â—â—thority is necessary for the knowing and understanding of Scripture THE second Absurdity I promis'd to make Mr. Claude and every good Protestant avow is That unless there be acknowledg'd in the Church an Authority after which there must be no more examining nor doubting there is a Necessity of setting a Point of time in which the Believer at the Age of Reason cannot make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture and in which consequently he must doubt whether it be true or false I assign'd for this Point of Doubt all the time in which a Christian for what cause soever has not read the Holy Scripture Mr. Claude here cries out against so detestable a Proposition and I persist to say That he not only own'd it in the Conference but also that in what manner soever he here endeavours to turn things he has not been able to do it so well but that he still confesses it in the Relation In truth this is one of the Places in which I least remember our exact Words But there is still enough to convince him since if this Relation becomes publick every one will see he here acknowledges in formal Terms That he who has not yet read the Holy Scripture believes it to be GODs Word with human Faith because his Father told him so which is the State of a Catechumen and when he has himself read this Book and felt the Efficacy of it he believes it to be GODs Word no longer with an human Faith because his Father told him so but with a divine Faith because he has himself immediatly felt its Divinity and this is the State of a Believer 'T is then true that he has acknowledg'd the Time I undertook to shew when a Baptiz'd Christian is not in a Condition to make an Act of Supernatural and Divine Faith upon the Holy Scripture since he believes it to be GODs Word only by an human Faith and divine Faith cannot come till after the reading of it In what manner soever he turns this human Faith 't is an horrible thing that a Baptiz'd Christian at the Age of Reason cannot make upon the Scripture an Act of that Faith by which we are Christians For thence it follows That a Christian at his first going to read the holy Scripture ought neither to be inclin'd of himself or induc'd by any other to say at opening it I believe as I believe that GOD is that the Scripture I am going to read is his Word On the contrary they must make him say I am going to examin whether henceforth during the rest of my life I ought to read this Scripture with such a Faith 'T is to overthrow the whole Order of Instruction 't is to lose the Fruit of Baptism 't is to reduce Baptiz'd Christians to instruct their Children as if they were not so and that they were yet to deliberate of what Religion they should be And what Mr. Claude says concerning the Scripture the same he must say on the Faith of the Trinity on that of the Incarnation on that of JESVS CHRISTs Mission and the Redemption of Mankind For that which forces Mr. Claude and every Protestant to say That the Believer who has not read the holy Scripture can believe it only with an human Faith to be inspir'd by GOD is That otherwise they must acknowledg an Act of Divine Faith on the Churches sole Authority Which would be to own this Authority as infallible and ruin the very Foundations of all the new Reformation But the same Argument returns upon all the Articles of our Faith and if the Faithful can believe with a divine Faith both the Trinity and the Incarnation and Mission of JESVS CHRIST on the sole Authority of the Church and before he has read the holy Scripture I shall always conclude with equal Certainty That the Churches Authority will be infallible By the Consequence then of Mr. Claude's and all the Protestants Principle we must in reducing the Christians who go to read the holy Scripture to a bare human Faith concerning this Scripture reduce them at the same time to the like on the most Essential Articles of our belief This was not the Method of our Forefathers they did not thus teach Christians to instruct their Children When they baptiz'd them in their Infancy they said in that young Age Credo I believe No matter thô our Reformers have chang'd this Form 't was us'd in the very first Ages and will be always holy and venerable maugre all they can do But this Form us'd towards Children shews us that when they shall have the use of Reason they must be immediatly taught to make an Act of Faith and time must not be lost in exciting them to it They will then be capable of it they may say the same Creed they should have said if they had been baptiz'd at the Age of Understanding and to reduce them to a Faith barely human is to take from them the Grace of their Baptism and justify the Practice as well as the Doctrin of the Anabaptists And I conjure the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion not to believe that I alledge here the Anabaptists by way of exaggeration or to render them odious these manners are not beseeming Christians I am ready to make good that the Doctrin taught here by Mr. Claude and which all Protestants must teach with him introduces Anabaptism For if the Acts of divine Faith must be held in suspense till such time as one has read the holy Scripture and be instructed by himself if all the Acts that precede this Instruction are not Acts of Christians since they have for their foundation only an human Faith for the same reason Bapâ—â—â— must be deferr'd till that time and we must not make Christians that at the Age of Reason are uncapable to produce Acts of their Religion The Fourth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's objecting the same Difficulty to us about the Church as we do to him about the Scripture 'T IS in vain for Mr. Claude to answer us That he will make us the same Argument for the Church as we make him for the Scripture for to do this as we shew him a point of time which even at the use of Reason necessarily precedes
the Reading of the Scripture he must also be able to shew us one that precedes the Churches Instructions but this he will never find Whatever he does we shall always mark him a a Point of time before the reading of the Scripture which is that when the Church puts it into our hand but before the Church there is nothing she prevents all our Doubts by her Instructions 'T is an Error to imagin that we must always examin before we believe The Happiness of those who are born as I may say in the Bosom of the true Church is That GOD has given her such an Authority that we believe at first what she proposes and that Faith precedes or rather excludes Examination To ask now by what Motives GOD makes us sensible of his Churches Authority is to depart visibly from the Question He wants not Motives to fasten his Children to his Church to which he has given so particular and so resplendent Characters This very thing that of all the Societies in the world she is the sole to whom none can shew her beginning or any interruption of her visible and exterior State by any averr'd Fact whilst she shews all other Societies that environ her theirs by Facts which themselves cannot deny this very thing is a sensible Character that gives an inviolable Authority to the true Church GOD wants not Motives to make his Children perceive this so particular Character of his Church But whatever these Motives are not to forestall them here this being no place for it 't is certain that there are some since that in fine we must be able to believe on the Churches word before we have read the holy Scripture and that in the first Instruction we receive without speaking of the Scripture we are taught to say as a fundamental Act of our Faith I believe the Catholick Church Mr. Claude tells us that to authorize the Method by which we pretend to lay the Churches Faith as the Foundation of all the rest the Creed should have begun with saying I believe the Church whereas it is begun with saying I believe in GOD the Father and in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost And he considers not that 't is the Church her self which teaches us the whole Creed that 't is on her word we say I believe in GOD the Father and in JESVS CHRIST his only Son and the rest which we cannot say with a firm Faith unless GOD at the same time puts in our Hearts that the Church which teaches us deceives us not After then we have on her word said I believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and begun our Profession of Faith by the Divine Persons whom their Majesty places above all we add an holy Reflection on the Church which proposes to us this Belief and say I believe the Catholick Church To which we immediatly after joyn all the Graces we receive by her Ministery the Communion of Saints the Remission of Sins the Blessed Resurrection and in fine Everlasting Life The Fifth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's alledging here the Practice of the Greek Church and the like which is only to embroil the matter and not to resolve the Difficulty 'T IS to shew a desire of embroling matters to alledge here with Mr. Claude the Greek Church the Armenian the Egyptian or Aethiopick and that of the Cophti and so many others which brag no less of being the true Church than the Roman does Those say they who are bred up in these Churches revere their Authority every one of these Churches has Followers as zealous as ours True and pure zeal has no sensible Mark every one attributes his as we do to the Grace of the Holy Ghost and resting on the Authority of the Church in which he is says That the Holy Ghost makes use of this Authority to guide him to the Belief of the Scripture and all the Verities of Christianity This is in a manner Mr. Claude's Objection and thus sometimes when Men cannot free themselves they endeavour to cast others into the like Perplexity as theirs But he will gain nothing by this Address for in fine what cause does he pretend to combat for is it for indifferency of Religions Will he say with the wicked that there is not a true Church in which men indeed act by divine Motions And under pretence that the Devil or if he pleases Nature can imitate or to say better counterfeit these Motions will he maintain that they are every where imaginary GOD forbid we will both of us avoid this Rock He will avow then with me that there is a true Church which soever it is where the Holy Ghost acts thô by looking only on the exterior we cannot always so easily discern who those are in whom he dwells Hitherto we are agreed let us see now how far we can go together We agree that there is one true Church in which the Holy Ghost acts we agree that he makes use of exterior Means to put the Truth in our Hearts we agree that he makes use of the Church and of the Scripture Our question is to know by which he begins whether by the Scripture or by the Church whether I say he makes us believe the Church by the Scripture or rather makes us believe the Scripture by the Church I say that the Holy Ghost begins by the Church and it must be so since 't is manifestly the Church that puts the Scripture in our hands Nevertheless Mr. Claude leaves me here and begins to walk alone but he falls at the very first step into a Precipice For his Fear of acknowledging an infallible Authority in the true Church and of believing that on her word we may make an Act of divine and super-natural Faith concerning the Scripture obliges him to say that 't is not possible to begin the reading of the Holy Scripture by such an Act of Faith and that every Act of Faith which precedes this Reading is an Act of human Faith See the deporable Condition in which he puts a Christian at his first going to read the Holy Scripture Mr. Claude cannot get forth of this Abyss without returning to the place where he began to leave me and saying afterwards with me that there is a true Church wheresoever she is the veneration of which the Holy Ghost first inspires into true Believers that by this Veneration which he at first puts in their Hearts he fixes them to the Scripture which this Church presents them that this Church requires also of all those she can instruct that they adore upon her word the infallible Truth of this Scripture and acknowledges not for her Children those which have only an human Faith for it But say they the Roman Church is not the sole which attributes to her self this Authority the Greek and other Churches will have one believe them on their word and teach that this is the Means to read the Holy Scripture with the
of the Divinity through Atheism since Examination and Doubt is a Spice of it But 't is not so GOD has plac'd his Mark in the World which is the Work of his Hands and by this divine Mark he imprints in Souls before all Doubts the Sentiment of his Divinity In like manner he has plac'd his Mark in his Church the most perfect work of his Wisdom By this Mark the Holy Ghost makes the true Church known to the Children of GOD and this so particular Character which distinguishes her from all other Assemblies gives her so great an Authority that without hesitating we admit before all Opinions not only the Holy Scripture but also all her sound Doctrin Thus are the Children of the true Church instructed those that are educated in a strange Church as soon as they perceive her waver in any part whatever of her Instruction ought to stretch forth their Arms to the Church which has reason never to waver because she has never vary'd nor waver'd and they find they ought to return into it because none should ever have gone out of it The Seventh REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's saying in his Relation that I appear'd embarrass'd in this part of the Dispute IT may now be judg'd whether I ought to be perplext about the Promise I made Mademoiselle de Duras to make Mr. Claude acknowledg a Moment in which by the Principles of his Religion a Christian had but an human Faith concerning the Truth of the Scripture How could I be embarrass'd about a thing which Mr. Claude acknowledg'd in the Conference and which he acknowledges still in his Relation thô he has weaken'd both my Proof and his own Confession 'T is true he cannot let go the Word Doubt but I pretended not to make his Tongue form this Syllable the Equivalent is sufficient for me 'T is an Excess great enough to reduce the Christian who is going to read the Holy Scripture to be uncapable of a Divine Faith To content ones self in this Condition with an human Faith is always too evidently to renounce Christianity I have then manifestly what I desir'd from Mr. Claude's Acknowledgment And if he says That the Faith he here speaks of excludes Doubt as resembling that which makes us believe there is a City call'd Constantinople or that there was heretofore a King nam'd Alexander the Great thô we know it but by Men This indeed is not enough for a Christian who ought to act by a Divine Faith but 't is still enough to conâ—ound Mr. Claude 〈◊〉 according to this Answer the Church would always have an Authority equal to that which all Mankind as I may say has when they unanimously depose concerning a sensible Fact Thus in what manner soever Mr. Claude explains to us 〈…〉 Faith the Victory of the Truth I asserted will remain secur'd by his Confession Since if he says his human Faith excludes Doubt he supposes in it an infallible Truth and if he say it leaves a Doubt he will in fine have pronounc'd these fatal Syllables he so much shun'd In a Cause so assur'd if I trembled for any thing but the Danger of those into whose Hearts I fear'd that either by reason of my own Weakness or their Prepossession I could not make the Truth sufficiently enter I ill understood the Truth I defended In the mean time because I said in the Recital of the Conference That at Mr. Claude's objecting to me the Greek Church and others I trembled thrô the Apprehension lest an Objection propos'd with â—o much Address and Eloquence might put a Soul in Peril Mr. Claude took this moment to make me appear vanquish'd Here says he it may with Truth be said That Monsr de Condom ' s Mind was seen not to be in its usual State and that the Liberty which is so natural to him sensibly decreas'd I may truly say in my turn That my Trembling whence this Advantage is drawn was interior and that I can scarce believe Mr. Claude could have perceiv'd it had I not my self sincerely related it in my Recital But what matter is it what was either the Effect or Cause of my Fear They shall say if they please That being put to a stand by Mr. Claude's Objection I would cover the Disorder into which I visibly fell by the Trembling I fain I had for the Salvation of a Soul that expected its Instruction from my Assistance I will own it if they please or rather not to ly I will let it pass without Opposition Let me have trembled before Mr. Claude provided that even in Trembling I spake the Truth I spake it They need only see what were my Answers and whether I drew not from Mr. Claude's Mouth the Acknowledgment I pretended After this the more I shall have trembled and the weaker I shall have been the more certain 't will be That 't was the Truth which kept me up The Eighth REFLECTION On another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference where is shewn the manner how all false Churches establisht themselves THere is a Part of the Conference which Mr. Claude passes over in four Words 'T is that where I shew him the horrible State of his Church which set it self up after the Example of all false Churches by separating from all the Christian Churches that were in the World and without finding any Church which thought as she did at the time of her Establishment So that she was not joyn'd by any Continuity either to the time that went before or to any Church which appear'd then in the World This Fact pass'd for evident and how short soever Mr. Claude has been in the Recital of this Part he says enough to shew That in acknowledging this important Fact he has only endeavour'd to cover the Shame of such a Condition by the Example of the Apostles when they separated from the Synagogue I will not repeat what I said on this Subject You have seen it in the Conference and Mr. Claude who relates but one Word of it does not oblige me to any new Exaplanation I shall only say That he gives a very false Idea of this part of the Dispute The Company says he was risen and the Conversation which continu'd yet some time became much more confus'd and we discours'd of divers things I know not why Mr. Claude will have our Conversation to have been confus'd it was not so in any part and 't was less so if it were possible in this than in the rest 'T is true we were risen and Part of the Company was withdrawn but Mr. Claude and I stood firm before each other Mademoisello de Duras seem'd to have redoubled her Attention and after so many Principles declar'd the Dispute became more quick and more concluding than ever If we spake of divers Matters it was not ramblingly and all tended to the same End It may be seen by reading it and if Credit will not be given to me in this behalf when
exterior Profession in which the Good are mixt with the Bad it follows that this Composition by what Name soever it is call'd shall always appear on the earth Now none can be assur'd of a Societies subsisting always and always in a visible State unless GOD has promis'd it His Promises regard then even this Mixture and not only the true Believers but with them all the Society in which they ought according to his Decrees always to appear By Consequence we must understand these Promises of JESVS CHRIST otherwise than Mr. Claude teaches The Promises of JESVS CHRIST respect not the Wicked alone nor were made for their sake if he said only this he would have Reason but these Promises which JESVS CHRIST made to his Faithful comprehend also the Wicked who are mixt with them When GOD by his Prophets promis'd the ancient People to give then plentiful Harvesh with the Corn he promis'd also the Chaff and to preserve the Harvest is to preserve the Chaff with the Corn. So to promise the Church and her eternal Duration into promise with the Elect the Wicked in the midst of whom GOD encloses them The wicked also in the Church are for the Just as the Chaff in the Harvest is for the Corn and as GOD promises not the Chaff either alone or for it self so he promises not the wicked either alone or for themselves But nevertheless all this Composition shall subsist in vertue of the divine Promise till the last separation when the Wicked as the Chaff shall be cast into the Fire that shall never be quench In the mean time JESVS CHRIST shall be always with the whole Composition keeping there in all the Exterior the sound Doctrin which he knows how to carry into the Interior even into the Hearts of those that live in the same manner as the Nourishment presented to our whole Body by the same way quickens only the Members which are dispos'd to receive it A second Objection of Mr. Claude's will fall by the same Principle He objects to me Man Ans 1. q. that in defining the Catholick Church mention'd in the Creed I speak only of the Church which is actually on earth instead of comprehending in it all the Elect which have been are and shall be and in fine with the holy Angels all the heavenly Jerusalem I have already answer'd him that I neither would nor was oblig'd to define the Church but in relation to our Subject and her Visibility But I add that in saying this according to Mr. Claude's own Principles I said all for according to him in the exterior Profession that is in what renders the Church visible may be markt the true Believers with whom all the Saints in what time and place soever they may be not excepting the holy Angels are united The Church which is on the Earth says Mr. Claude is one with that which is already gather'd in Heaven and with that which GOD will cause to spring up even to the end of the Generations all which three together make but one which is call'd the Vniversal Church GOD be prais'd when I shall have found the exterior Profession which renders the Church visible Mr. Claude has already told us that I shall have found the true Believers that is according to him the true Church actually present on earth and he now tells us that with this Church I shall by the same means have found both that which is already in Heaven and that which GOD will cause to grow up in all following Ages We need then only enquire after the Church which is on the earth and the exterior Profession which shews her to us being assur'd to have found there without enquiring any farther the Perfect Communion of Saints and the Society of all the Elect. Besides when under the Name of the Catholick Church I understood the Church which is upon the Earth I spake with all the Fathers They ordinarily joyn to the Title of Catholick Church that of spread over all the earth toto orbe diffusa To this Title of Catholick they joyn also the Title of Apostolick and thus is it put in the Nicene Creed where is seen the most authentical as well as the most perfect Interpretation of the Apostles Creed This Title of Apostolick makes part of the Churches Catholicity and shews us among other things that she is descended from the Apostles by the perpetual Succession of her Pastors and by the Episcopal Chairs establisht over all the earth All the Saints whose blessed Souls are with GOD were conceiv'd in this Church all those that are to come shall likewise be regenerated in it so that there shall never be any one who has not made an essential Part of this Body of which JESVS CHRIST is the Head For the Angels if we respect only the direct Signification of the Words they never made Part of this Church founded by the Apostles and spread over all the earth where she ought to make her Pilgrimage and thô JESVS CHRIST is their Head he is in a more particular manner that of the Faithful washt in his Blood and renew'd by his Word But the Angels thô united to JESVS CHRIST in another manner are our Brethren and are not Strangers to the Catholick Church of which on the contrary they are establisht after their manner Co-opperators and Ministers 'T is an evident Truth but with which I had nothing to do in this place 't is sufficient to remark in the Creed what our Fathers found there expresly and immediately signify'd by the word Catholick Church by adding to it the Title Apostolick so natural to her Catholicity and the Elegium of being spread over all the earth To know the Doctrin of thâ—â— Church is to know the Doctrin of all the Elect. There is seen in Heaven and in the Brightness of the Saints only what is believ'd in this Church and the Holy Angels who as the Apostle Saint Paul says Eph. iii. v. 10. have learnt by the Church such high Secrets of the Divine Wisdom respect her Beller Thus all being reduc'd as I have already said to the Visibility Mr. Claude will only make me lose Time and digress when he will have me treat here any thing else to make known this Catholick Church which is confess'd in the Creed The Thirteenth and last REFLEXION Mr. Claude's Doctrin shews the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion that there is no Salvation for them but in the Roman Church I Have now nothing left to do but to exhort the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion and Mr. Claude himself if he will permit me to draw manifest Consequences from the Principles he has laid then they will no longer be able to resist the Truth and will remain convinc'd that there is no Salvation for them but in returning to the bosom of the Roman Church We have seen that Vid. Sup. XI Ref. p. 99. seq to verify the Promises of the Gospel Mr.
Claude is oblig'd to acknowledge a Church always visible since the Church which is not visible is no Church and that according to the Definition Vid. Sup. p. 103. he has given us the Church is the true Faithful who make Profession of the Christian Truth under a Ministery which furnishes her with the Aliments necessary for the Spiritual Life These Faithful then are not a Body in the Any since they make PROFESSION OF THE TRUTH under an Ecclesiastical Ministery always subsisting and that as we have seen there must be without any Interruption an exterior Profession of which it may be said There are the true Believers Thus 't is not sufficient to alledge at random to us conceal'd Believers they are oblig'd to shew us without Interruption first a visible Society of which may be said They are there 't is there they serve GOD in Spirit and Truth 't is there they confess the Gospel Nor will it be enough to shew us these Believers dispers'd they must secondly shew us them gather'd together under the Authority of an Ecclesiastical Ministery with preaching of the Word with the Administration of the Sacraments with the use of the Keys and all the Ecclesiastical Government By consequence they must shew us a Society of Pastors and People whence it follows in the third place that they must be able to name us these Pastors since the Succession of them is manifest To seek all this in the Pretended Reformed Church as it is now separated from the Roman Church that is from that Body of the Church which acknowledges the Roman Church and the Pope for its Head is what Mr. Claude does not so much as dream of 't is enough for him that to the time of the Pretended Reformed's Separation he finds all this in the Roman Church it self The true Believers were there as long as those that compos'd the Pretended Reformation were there when they went forth or were driven forth Vid. Sup. p. 46. they carry'd the Church with them as Mr. Claude said in the Conference This Discourse more like a Raillery than a serious Discourse is nevertheless that which is seriously held in the new Reformation Till the Separation of these new Reformed the Succession of the true Believers that is according to Mr. Claude of the true visible Church Man Ans q. 4. seq was perpetuated in the Roman Church and 't is since their Separation that she ceases to contain them Such is the Succession of the visible Church which Mr. Claude establishes in his Manuscript Answer till the Separation the true Faithful which the Roman Church contain'd after the Separation the Pretended Reformed which came forth of her Bosom But whence came their Pastors Were they also detacht with these pretended Believers from the Body of the Roman Church to perpetuate in the Church thus Reform'd the Ecclesiastical Ministery Ibid. In no wise Mr. Claude does not understand it so The Faithful detacht from the Roman Church all on a sudden depos'd all the Pastors which were before that is to say that before the Catholick Bishops and Priests with the Pope at their Head were the Pastors establisht by JESVS CHRIST for there must be such for the true Believers which they contain'd in their Unity in the Moment that the Reformation appear'd they were all on a sudden depos'd and the Ministery taken out of their Hands But what right had private persons thus all on a sudden and in one moment to dispossess all their Pastors 'T is because they are the true Believers Man Ans q. 4. seq to whom the Ministery appertains of right who might consequently dispose of it take it from some and give it to others Man Ans 4. q. towards the end We must not says Mr. Claude imagine the Succession of Pastors in this ordinary transmission which the Ministers make from one to another and which is call'd the exterior and personal Succession the Question is whether it may not sometimes happen that the Church that is the true Believers shall take her Ministery out of the hand of those who have too visibly abus'd it and give it to others This is the Question in general Cons 8 9 10. as Mr. Claude proposes it and the Application he makes of it in particular is That the Latin Prelates who enjoy'd the Ecclesiastical Ministery in the time of our Fathers and who were assembled in the Council of Trent having made Decisions of Faith incompatible with Salvation and having pronounc'd Anathemaes against these who submitted not to them the Pretended Reformed had Reason to regard these Prelates as Ministers who had stript themselves of the Ministery and to give it to other Persons They should then at least according to these Principles have expected the Decisions of Trent and since before these Decisions so many Churches separated from Rome had already given themselves Pastors the Reformation will have begun by a manifest Usurpation But let us not so much press Mr. Claude and without insisting rigorously on the Council of Trent let us desire him only to mark us some day a little near the Time in which he will permit the true Believers to have continu'd under the Ministery of the Roman Church And in the mean time let us content our selves to observe this new Doctrin that it may happen that all the Pastors of the Church dispossest all on a sudden may become in one moment private men and that without their establishing any other Pastors to succeed them the true Believers in no wise Pastors but private persons separated from every Church actually existing may of their sole Authority confer the Ministery on others establish them ordain them instal them This is what Mr. Claude afterwards farther explicates by these words that these Pastors before alone in Function are of right depriv'd and the Ministery return'd of right to that part of the Society Cons 10. in which are found the true Believers that is to say the Pretended Reformed separated from the Roman Church and from every Church then subsisting in the world What an Authority and Privilege does the Separation give Such is Mr. Claude's Doctrin if I change if I exaggerate if I diminish let him without delay publish his writing to confound me But if this be his Doctrin I conjure our Reformed to consider what Prodigies of Doctrin must be taught to defend their Reformation For first where do they read in what Gospel in what Epistle in what Writing of the Old or New Testament that all the Pastors of the Church should in a moment fall from their Chair and become private persons whom one might and ought freely disobey Has JESVS CHRIST hidden this great Mystery from us and would he not have precaution'd us against this horrible Temptation of his Church But this is not all after he has shewn us in the Scripture this universal Fall of all the Pastors he must also find there this Ministery return'd of right
Preaching not some Truths or only the principal Truths but the entire Fulness of Christian Truths Whatever they say 't is not to believe blindly to believe thus or 't is to believe blindly like Abraham on the word of GOD himself and the Faith of his Promises How insupportable then is the Doctrin of Mr. Claude who after he has acknowledg'd so many magnificent Promises of JESUS CHRIST's in favour of this sacred Ministery plunging again all of a sudden into the Darkness of his Sect whence he was beginning to get out shews us the Ministery so abandon'd by JESUS CHRIST that there is no Remedy for its Errors but by deposing all at once all those which are in the Chair What agreement have these Promises so well acknowledg'd with so universal a Corruption Mr. Claude then needs only hearken a little to himself for to come unto us after having acknowledg'd in vertue of the divine Promises the Eternity of the Ecclesiastical Ministery in this Estate he represents to us to find there always all Truth he needs only consider that this imperfect Assistance and as one may say this half Succor of JESVS CHRIST to his Church is neither beseeming his Wisdom nor his Power being moreover assur'd that there is no true Sufficiency in the Ministery but by the full manifestation of the Truth reveal'd by GOD agreeably to this Word of the Apostle By manifestation of the Truth we commend our selves to every mans Conscience in the sight of GOD. 2 Cor. iv v. 2 3 4. Whence he concludes presently after that if our Gospel that is most certainly our Preaching be hid it is hid to them that are lost to the end he may make us understand that the Preaching always clear and always sincere in the Catholick Church has no obscurity but in Rebels in whom the Devil the God of this World and the Spirit of Pride hath blinded the minds as the same Apostle proceeds lâ—st the Light of the glorious Gospel should shine unto them 'T is now easy to see that all Mr. Claude's Subtilties serve only to confound him What avails it him that acknowledging the Churches Visibility he endeavour'd to elude the Consequences of this Doctrin by reducing the Church to the true Believers I am contented where-ever he finds Church let him understand the true Believers let him even explicate if he will these Words Mat. xviii v. 4. Tell it unto the Church Tell it to the true Believers single them out amongst the Troop and judge before the Lord or because as himself acknowledges here is too apparently meant the Church represented by her Pastors Mans Ans 4. q. let him say that these Pastors represent the true Believers which are not known and act in their Name What will these Explications after all advantage him since that in fine according to his own Doctrin this true Church shall always be 〈◊〉 visible and these true Believers always under a publick Ministery from which JESUS CHRIST so little permits his Church to be separated that even after these Words Tell it unto the Church but if he neglect to hear the Church let him he unto theâ— as an 〈◊〉 man to shew how redoubtable the Churches Judgment is he immediatly expresses the efficacy of the Ministery by these Words Matt. xviii v. 18. Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and the rest which every one knows Thus I conclude always equally that the Church which we must shew without interruption whether it be only the true Believers or if they will only the Elect or whether it be in a certain Sense the wicked mixt with them Matt. xiii v. 21. and those that believe for a while according to the expression of the Gospel is a Church always gather'd under a visible Ministery and a Body always subsisting of People with their Pastors where the Truth is preacht not in secret Matt. x. v. 27. but upon the house tops Let them turn as much as they will 't is a Church of this Nature and this Constitution we must at all times shew by Mr. Claude's Confession To make her disappear for one sole Moment is utterly to annihilate her and to overthrow the Promises of the Gospel in what they have most sensible and most apparent to make her appear always is invindibly to establish the Roman Church Thus what Mr. Claude explicates to us with so much care besides that it is false leaves the Difficulty entire and his Cause in as had a Condition as it was before his Defence But to the end they may not say we are contented with refuting him let us tell him the Truth in few words The Foundation of the Church is the true Believers and those principally who persevering to the end abide eternally in JESVS CHRIST and JESVS CHRIST in them that is to say the Elect. The Wicked which envinron them are after their manner comprehended under the Name of the Church as the Nails as the Hair as an Eye put out and a wither'd Arm which perhaps receives no more nourishment is comprehended under the Name of the Body All is for these true Believers The Ministery under which they live is theirs in the Sense 1 Cor. iii. v. 22. that St. Paul said All is yours whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas Not that the Power of their Pastors comes from them or that they alone can set them up and depose them GOD forbid This Pastoral and Apostolick Power comes from him Joh. xx v. 21. who said As my Father hath sent me I also send you This is what makes St. Paul say in the same place 1 Cor. iii. v. 4 5. Who is then Apollos and who is Paul The Ministers of him whom you have believ'd and to every one as our Lord hath given to you to be Believers and to us to be Pastors Wherefore he adds farther v. 9. We are GODs Laborers or to say better Co-operators These Ministers and these Workers establisht by GOD are also the Ministers of the Faithful and in this Sense are theirs because they are their Servants by JESVS CHRIST establisht in the Chair not for themselves for as to their own part it would suffice them to be simple Believers 2 Cor. iv v. 5. but for to edify the Saints He that desires to be in the Communion of these Saints need not torment himself to distinguish them from others for thô they are not known and perfectly discern'd but by GOD alone we are sure to find them under the publick Ministery and in the exterior Profession of the Catholick Church We need then only stay there for to be assur'd to find the Saints because this Profession and the ever fruitful Word of the Preachers which never fails to engender some keeps them always inseparably united to the holy Society where they receiv'd it Wherefore when JESVS CHRIST promises to teach always with his Church he comprehends all in this Word and rendring