partly vnderstode both by Capâ—â—â—â— letters written to comfort a ministre off Geneua then Wrestling for yt as by Bezas wordes which particularly note one or two partes therof Nether can disagreemeÌ„t of the fauourers thereoff in interpretation of some place signification of some word alteration off some circumstance yf any be hinder this no more then diuers pictures off one face hauing al the same great and principal drawghts can hinder vs from acknowledging the same visage in them al albeit one be more coningly drawn then other haue more liuely and orient couloures then other haue one smal line more or les then other Onles peraduenture men wil be so vnaduised to denie the doctrine off the Gospell to be the same professed at Geneua at Zurick at Witemberg because the professors had in some smaller points their seueral Iudgements Another principall kinde off artillery wherwith the D. leueleth at this wal off church discipline is â—haccusation off Anabaptistry This also as may appeare is taken from the Papistes For when the persequuting off the churche in Fraunce where together with the doctrine this discipline was established was misliked off the Almanes the French to appease them said there vvere none so cruelly handled but Anabaptists and troublesome felovves vvhich vvould ouerthrovv not religion onely but the vvhole order off the commeÌ„ vvealth And althowgh the D. hath in this behalf trauailed mightily and gathered as yt were a heape off stones to throw at vs yet for feare off being conuincted off so manifest vntrwthes he dare not throw one but priuilie and as yt were vnder hand saying he will not accuse any he will not condemne any that is he will forsothe not flea vs him self but hould our legs while other flea vs But he shal neuer so escape the iudgemement off god For yf he were giltie which kept their garments that cast the stones how much more shall he that put stones in their handes althowgh yf we were suche we owght so to be noted that others might take heed off suche detestable heretikes All which false surmises with diuers others of Donatism Papism puratanism We might with one sentence off the holy man Iob haue refuted For so are they not onely vntrw but for the moste parte without al colour of trwth that taking our aduersaries boke off accusations vpon our shoulders and applying them vnto our heades that al might read and see them wee might as off a crovvne or robe haue receiued commendation by them Howbeit because there was some daunger least the D. lofty titles and glittering estate might ether seduce som simple ones or vtterly carie away those whose mindes were forestalled with some preiudice against the cause we maintein I thowght good once at large aÌ„d peece by peece to lay forth the vnworthines of his accusations Now I see there is no end of his vnhonest charges I meane not by further answer in poursuit off his oulde or auoiding his nwe ether weary my selfe or the reader For seing the vntrwth off them is in the eies and eares off all why shoulde I trauaile to stop his Throate which as an open sepulchre off vntrw sumises wil as seemeth neuer with any reasonable answer be filled vp And that yow may haue a taste off his equitie note I beseche yow his answers vnto our defence This is wel said if vnfained These glorious wordes are but mistes to blind the eies off the simple The Anabaptistes would saie the like Verely if they say so they shall deteste them selues with all their wicked phantasies and gyue as sounde a Confession of the trwth as the Doctor can make any But let vs imagin him selfe accused off all these pointes which he surmiseth of vs I would gladly know what he would answer Let him conceiue his purgation as effectually and in as good wordes as he can make al the protestations he can offer him self to what examination he can how easie ys yt for his aduersarie with the same equitie he vseth towardes vs to dashe al. This is wel said but it is fained there was neuer heretike which to hide bis poison pretended not some colour off truth c. And by the grace off God we are as far yea further also as shall appeare from al pointes off Anabaptisme then he But saith he let the like effectes proceding of like causes and in like maner iudge the likelihoode betweene the Anabaptistes and them Truly yf he proue the causes like the controuersie is at an â—â—de And if the searche off the trwth had bene his marke here he would haue begon where the triall is certaine and not off the effectes Which allthowgh they be falsly surmised yet some are suche as maie ensue albeit after another sorte aswell the preaching off the trwth as the publishing off falshood And surely if the Anabaptistes when they rose in Germany had met with suche confuters yt is very like that they now put to flight would haue occupied the greatest part off it But the godlie mynisters assured of a good cawse prouoked to most solemn disputations where all seyng their vanities might learne to deteste them and them selues made to vnderstand their folies might be stricken with shame which might bringe repentance This they did by example off the Godlie learned in times past and off Augustine namely Who prouoketh the Donatistes and Manichies to Disputation in the hearing off all his church This cause therfore if yt should not preuaile by force off trwthe yt must gaine throwghe the indirecte meanes and cowardly fight off the Answerer so far from procuring this trial that he accuseth me as desirous of popular praise because refusing his priuat confeâ—rence as he some where hath affirmed I onely put him in minde of a disputacion Wherto also perteineth that he counteth yt Anabaptistical that this ys propounded in places where the gospell hath bene alredy planted As if there were a fitter place to propounde the Discipline then vvhere the doctrine hathe allredie beene receiued where shoulde the vvall be fitlier made then where the citie is before builded Where the diche caste but where the Orcheyarde is alreadie planted Yf yt had bene preached where was ignorance or small knowledge of the gospell the would haue taken great aduantage for that they might so haue abused the blindnes of their heares to cause them beleue that which those that haue their eyes open could not be brought vnto Now they preache in places vvhere the gospell was planted he will make that also serue for a stepp for his accusation to clime vp by So that howsoeuer we behaue our selues what commoditie off circumstance soeuer we haue the D. hathe suche an engine that he can not onely cause yt not to serue for vs but also make against vs For sure I am no place could haue bene les suspected then London and Cambridge two off the highest hills in all the realme from whence bothe the sounde off yt might
the statute off the howse is to prouide that men should not turne their studies to other professions off law c but that there should be to furnish the Colledge off a numbre off preachers off which I was one as sone as I entred Nether was there any dutie of mynisterie which the Colledg could require off me that I was not inabled to doo according to the lawes of the churche off England by vertue off that mynisterie which I had receiued So that the law yt self as that whose meaning was fulfilled euen with my entrie did not require yt Also the corruption off the law or at the least off his interpretation binding men to beg a ministery and therby after a sorte to testifie off them selues that they befit for yt might after knowledg that I owght not to beg it iustly kepe me back By how muche more I were worthie to be condemned if as he accuseth I had ambitiously desired to be the Queenes maiesties diuinitie reader for which I neuer opened lip Yf I had how knoweth he I did yt ambitiously who maketh yt lawful to aske yt So that onles he know my hart my laboring for it yf any had bene is iustified by his diuinity The life I answer to an other not vnlife that I earnestly desired the degree off doctorship Wherin beside that I moued nothing but yelded onely to the request off certein frindes I had before my grace propounded in the scholes the aduise off more than a dosen learned ministers Who considering that I had the office off a Doctorin the vniuersitie were off opinion that for the good they estemed might be done therby I might swalow the fond and idle ceremonies which accompanie yt His fourth is that I haue forsaken the ministerie wherunto I answer as I haue for them whom he likewise chargeth His fift that I my selfe preaching before here and there where I thowght good now condemne yt in others the answer whereof is partly page 45. line 17. off his and partly page 41. line 20. off my boke The last that I refused his conference which is vntrwe For beside that I answered that yt was meet the doctrine I had taught openly shoulde be defended openly and beside that also I went to two off the vniuersitie Doctors to be conferred with I offered my self to his priuat conference which althowgh he had promised yet vnder pretence that I was as he said vncorrigible he would not performe The truth is he offered priuat conference by writing but hauing before experience off his vnfaithfulnes many waies I refused yt And thus muche to his accusations towching as well my comming to and goyng from the ministerie as also off my behauiour in yt Of the most wheroff there are diuers witnesses and off all the Lord him self bothe witnes and iudge whose presence in this defence I set before myne eies Vnles peraduenture that also may seem to appertein hether that by defence off this cause I woulde chuse my selfe the place off my mynistery Wherof I lay euill foundations which teache that no man may place him self but wait for his calling especially when by his doctrine I may feed in euerie pasture and lightlie grasing or taking the vppermost of one streight way goo to an other In the other part of my life after he had thrust me out of the Colledge he accuseth me for going vp and downe doing no good and liuing at other mēs tables that I was not idle I suppose he knoweth to well Whether well occupied or no let it be iudged I liued in deed at other mens tables hauing no hous nor wife of myne own but not without their desire ād with smal delight of mine for feare of euil tonges And althowgh I were not able to requite yt yet towardes some I went abowte yt instructing their children partely in the principles off religion partly in other learning His other accusations beside the cause are off my maner off writing The matter is blamed for that as he saith yt consisteth wholy of other mens notes and collections and that I haue scarce red one off the autors which I haue alledged yea and that I also contēne them namely maister Nowels Catechism And for the forme It is blamed as vndutifull towardes the Archbishops bishops c. namely the Bishop of Salisbury and himselfe especially That off contempt off M. Nowels and other mens workes I detest as intollerable arrogancie The other wherin the question is off great reading I let pas For yf he be learned and I not haue read them all and I scarce one it will easely appear to the learned beside that as I haue said it towcheth not the cause Onely I admonish that he doe yt hereafter with better ground For notwitstanding it is like he hunteth me with moe howndes then I him yet beside those places I confes my selfe to haue receiued he noteth not many and that excepted off Ierome mistaken for Musculus not one trewlie Let vs therfore come to the forme Where in my behauiour towardes the bishop of Salisbury I would gladly know of him what wordes he could haue prescribed me wherby I might more modestly haue dissented from him So that vnles the simple defence of the cause be misbehauiour I am well assured there is no dutie broken For my speches off the Archbishops c. generally yf all should be taken either in this or the former book against their persons which I speak against their offices his accusation should not be altogither vntrew But as condemning these offices or their corruptions I make no conscience to speake contemptuously off them so diuers off the persons which beare them both for their learning ād proof of godlines shewed in times past I will not cease to reuerence vntil which I hope wil not be by open enimitie against a knowne trwth their own consciēces shall think them selues vnworthy And this to an indifferent reader shal suffice for towardes the D. I haue no remedie which expoundeth all duetifull sayinges counterfaict humilitie glorious and Smooth wordes to get credit My dewtie towardes him is accused diuersly of vnbrotherhood vnfaithfulnes wante of good will made heinous by circumstance of periury and vnthankfulnes Wherein I wil not answer that I vsed not you as maister because yow vsed not me as felow but ask yow wherin this breache off duetie consisteth Yf Iowe yow fidelitie Iowe yt more vnto the lorde yf good will the trwth must be preferred yf the master of Trinitie Colledg be a frend the trwth is more Yf yow a brother the trwth owght to be brother sister mother and al. Against what part off trw fidelitie ys yt to reproue him openly by writing which had openly by writing spoken euill off that which I was and am perswaded to be the euerlasting trwth off God and reuiled those which mainteined yt Against what poinct off good will to haue shewed him
be the easilest caried into all other places and which abounding with knowledge off the gospell were fittest to iudge off the goodnes off the cause Wherin I doubte not but the good hande off Gods direction and the example off the Apostells haue bene considered who that they might haue fuller sheues off the seed of their doctrine preased to the chief and moother cities making their accompte that the mother being won the daughters round abowte vvould be easilier intreated And althowghe yt come to often to pas that there is some Amazias or high preist nere the courte which vseth both his eies to watche that none come thether to disquiet his vnlawfull possession yet forsomuche as it is as impossible to pull the winges off the winde that yt should not blow or shut the windowes off the heauens that they should not raine as to stop that trwth which God in his holy worde hath breathed and doeth raine by the clowdes off his mynistery I dowbt not but the voice off yt is come to the highest and shall haue that fruict in time which God hath disposed off Yf yt should not yet euery faithfull mynister is detter vnto his flocke off the whole trwth learned owt off the worde off God aswell for reioicing their heartes in encrease of knowledg as that therby they might bewail their synnes for want off yt and forthwith be stirred to continuall praier that God would encline the Princes heart and off others in autoritie to gyue yt that defence which apperteineth Nether doe we therefore call vpon the examination off our doctrine as thowgh we feared least our behauiour should be examined or as if yt resembled the Anabaptistes maner of liuing but that I might shew how disorderly the D. goeth to worck For althowgh before the Lord we and I for my part especially as myserable synners hang down our heades and couer our faces yet our behauiour throwgh his grace towching that surmised of vs ys such as we nothing fear but with all indifferent iudgement yt conteineth plentifull remedy against the sting off all suche slaunderous tonges Wise Physicions when the desease is vnknown seeke yt by owtward tokens off pulse vrine c. Yf we had nourished any night or corner doctrine which we whispering in the eares of certeine woulde not haue had come owt of the doores of our priuat houses yt should haue bene accounted to him for wisdom by signes and coniectures to haue inquired into our couert opinions But now seing we haue Fanckly and openly published our iudgementes and as yt were on the Faire and Market daies proclaimed them offering them in scholes in churches by preaching by writing not onely to the tast off the commen people but to the examination of the best learned after al this to inquire by signes and tokens is to seek his aduersary whiche standeth hard by to call for him which is present And yt is as if one to know what iudgement an other is of had rather take his mark by the colour of his coat or tag of his point then by his speache or hand writing And if it were the good will off God I would for this matter he had a window to look into our consciences To make and ende of answer to these surmises whatsoeuer is proper ether to the heresie off Papistes Anabaptistes Donatists or puritanes that wee vtterly condemne vnto the bottomles pit off hell But if amongest the filth of their herises there may be found any good thing as yt were a grain off good corn in a great deal of darnell that wee willingly receiue not as theiree but as the Iues did the holy Arke from the Philistines wherof they were vniust owners For herein yt is trw that is said the sheep must not lay dovvn her fel becavvse she seeth the vvolf somtim clothed vvith yt yea yt may come to pas that the Synaguog off Satan may haue some one thing aâ— somtime with more conuenience then the trw and Catholike churche off Christ Such was the ceremonie off powring water once onely vpon the childe in baptisme vsed with vs and in the moste reformed churches which in some age was vsed onely by those off the Eunomian heresy As for the Answerer let him remember that the iust Iudge liueth before whome if he doe not speedelie repent one day notwithstanding his gloses I accuse none I apply yt to none he muste houlde vp his hand with Satan the Prince off the accusers off the children off God wherunto I doubt not but his own conscience is his Apparitor and hath giuen him summonce And thus much for answer vnto the D. generall partly accusations and partly surmises against the fauourers off the church discipline now propounded There folow particular charges against the autors off the admonition and against me Those against them haue bene answered and the answers so far forth as they touche the cause are in this boke mainteined sauing certein new charges Wherein I dowbt not but they will take yt in good part that I vse silence seing that some of the smaller thinges are such as lie not in my knowledg and some so manifestly vntrw that they need not fear any credit to be gyuen vnto them the D. him selfe as I thinck not belieuing them Of his accusations against me because some haue eie aswel to the speakers as to the thinges spoken I trust yt shall not be greuous yf I answer somthing Especially when in this preface beside other thinges I purpose God willing to Synk nigh half his later book For if one would make suruey off reproches vntrw surmises and false accusations wherwith he hath frawght yt beside a nwe lode which he hath charged the second edition off his first boke with he should I suppose finde nigh one half spent in those wares Wherin he dealeth with me as certein beastes which pursued cast forth behinde them an vntollerable sauour therby to affray their hunters from further chasing them In deed they are very vnpleasant but the good sauour off the trwth and off honest behauiour in thinges he accuseth me off hath by the grace off God so comforted all the senses off my minde that he hath not escaped by this pollicie Some off his accusations touche the cause but the most part touche yt not Off this later kynd one sort are off my maner of liuing â–ª albeit he count yt a childishe kinde off confuting that one should leaue the cause and take him self to the person Here my ministerie is diuerslie accused as that I did not seke for the ordre off priesthood as it is called for that is that he meaneth I should haue done by othe or els departed the Colledge The answer hereto is longer then this treatise may embrace which I am readie to exhibit before him to whom it belongeth because I am prouoked I humbly desire him to receiue the cause But in a word yt ys a meer cauill For the meaning off
they would goe one foot back from that truth off the discipline which they had learned owt off the word off God which had bene rashly doen if the matter had bene off so smal importance as that for redeming off peace they might haue let the cause of the disciplin fal or laid it aside vntill a fitter time There are God be praised no tumultes nor vprores with vs and I hope there shal be none but as yt is not lawful for vs to moue any so to withdraw the hand from defense off the cause for feare of them to be moued by others is against dutie There are others which as the espies off the land of Canaan confessing it good and profitable for the churche yet in respect of the manifold lets affirme it a thing impossible and therby not onely discorage them selues but weaken the handes off other And euen here also I see Rebecca again For yt appeareth by the lordes answer vnto her tvvo peoples should be deuided ovvt of her bovvls that she was in some dispair off hauing strenght to be deliuered of her desired seed considering the daungerous wrestlings and struglinges in her womb And in deed if we consider our selues if we look vpon our own armes I graunt the walles against it are higher then will be scaled the gates and barres are stronger then wil be broken throwgh the children come to the birth there wil be no strenght to bring forth For herein casting our accōptes we must wait for not onely the misliking of our brethern which be misled the hatred of the obstinat Papistes which see their kingdō vnreparable if this get place but the deadly enimities off Hypocrites and Atheistes which wil not suffer their vntamed lustes to come vnder any yoke off correction nor their lose affections off riotous pleasures proud ambition and vnsatiable couetousnes to be bound vvith any bandes off wholesome discipline But of the other side if we look vnto the lord and his mighty arme which not onely with a blast of his mouth striketh the walles and breaketh the gates in peeces but also maketh the high walles to fall and the yron gates to open of their owne accord which maketh not onely the weak but euen the barē women to bring forth No difficulty or impossibilitie in the iudgement off men owght to turne vs from any lawfull endeuour to promote the cause The example off the wall in Ierusalem finished notwithstanding al the enimies serueth here for our confirmation For if the lord stretched forth his hand for furtherance of that material wall he will not in the aduauncing off this spiritual hould it in his bosome Yf he forsoke not his seruantes vnder heathen Princes he will not be wanting to them vnder Christian Hetherto belongeth the example in Geneua before mentioned The whole estate off the Citie almost from the highest vnto the lowest amongest whom were also the greatest part off the ministers was bent against yt two or three simple men scarce able to traine their legges after them hauing no other armour then the trwth and a good conscience stand for it Yf flesh and bloud should here sit in iudgement the field were lost or euer yt were begun the freendes off the discipline should for that they toke the defense in hand be accounted fooles for that they would not cōpound the matter mad men But what was the issue Verily the Lord so magnified his word in the hand of his seruātes that after trial off their patience by diuers troubles the Capitaines against yt came to shameful end a number yealded the rest that continued their enemitie durst not shew yt the trwth yt self was established and so to the singuler commendation off that citie remaineth And shall we in so great a nomber whose heartes the Lord hath inclined to fauour this cause despaire especially seing yt ys easier to be established with vs then with them and may here be setled withowt so muche as a dog mouing his tong which was not there withowt daungerous vprores For where no wholsom law can pas there onles the most part consent onely the hundreth part with vs weigheth down all the rest Yt remaineth that as the Iwes in the wal off Ierusalem did euery one according to the abilitie the Lord had blessed them with builde his part so those whose hartes the lord hath lightened with the knowledg of this truth should as their callings and meanes which the lord hath giuen them will serue lay their handes to the work That those whom the lord hath giuen fauour or acces vnto her maiestie would set before their eies the exāple of that worthy courtier Nehemias which forgetting his priuat profit and preferment for full recompence of all his faith full seruice vnto his Prince was glad to obtein at his hand the building vp of the walles off the citie of God and therfore not to reserue the grace and credit they haue with her highnes for their owne matters but to bestow yt vpon the Lordes That the Prince her selfe woulde consider how to let pas the daunger vnto her sowle vnworthy yt ys off her honour if throwgh vntrw reportes ether against the cause or fauourers therof she turne away her eare from hearing and taking knowledge of it seing a heathen king did not admit suche rumors against that which concerned the glory off God althowgh they were offred thick and three fould and that by his one coutrey men against the Iwes whiche were but straungers Finally that we all continually pray to the lord that he would vouchsafe to open their eies whiche are yet ignorant in this behalf confirme those which haue knowledge and confound thē if any be which ether for honour or lucres sake willingly bend thē selues against the trueth To the reader THe cause off the slovvnes of ansvver hath bene in part my often sicknes and vvant off bookes off all Sortes a fevv onely excepted vvhich I brovght vvith me and those for the most part English so that for euery Place almost cited off the D. I vvas constreined to seek in other mens libraries and after I had vsed the book to cary it home againe VVhich vvith vvhat los of time yt vvas may easely be estemed Ad hereunto the slacknes off the print For althovvgh yt had bene my singuler aduantage both for polishing and better ordering off thinges to haue put nothing vnder the pres before the vvhole book had bene finished yet beginning to print after I had made an end off one treatise and begon an other yt vvas notvvithstanding scarce able to ouertake me Amongest the causes vvhy I set forth one part before the vvhole vvas ended one ys for that this former part rose to a iust volume An other that if any thing haue escaped vvhich may be hurtfull vnto the trvvth I might being aduertised amend yt in the later part vvheroff I desire the Godly reader vvith as conuenient speed as he can to gyue me vnderstanding The
it hath some smale force in humane sciences for as muche as naturallie and in that he is a man he maye come to some rypenes off Iudgement in those sciences Which in diuine maters hathe no force at all as off him which naturally and as he is a man can no more Iudge off them then a blind man off colours Yea so farre is it from drawing credite if it be barelie spoken withowt reason and testimonie off Scripture that it carieth also a suspition off vntrewth whatsoeuer proceded from him which the Apostle did well note when to signifie a thing corruptlie spoken and against the truthe he saith that it is spoken according vnto man he saith not as a wicked or lying man but symplie as a man And althowghe this corruption be reformed in manye yet forsomuch as in whom the knowledge of the truthe is most advāced there remaineth bothe ignorance and disordered affections wheroff either turneth him from speaking off the truth no mans authoritie withe the church especiallie and those that are called and perswaded off the authoritie off the word off God can bring any assurance vnto the conscience So that iff all that the D. affirmeth were trew as it is vntrue and iff all those authorities which are alledged were faithfullie and according to the meaninge off the writers cited as they are almost all writhen and falsified yet being for the most part vpholden by the bare authoritie and credite off men they can giue no reste to any Christian conscience which shall leane vppon them And iff he saye that those men haue not spoken withowt reason and warrant off the word of god then besides that he is greatly to blame that bringeth not the reasons which moued them to thinke so and wherupon as vppon certen pillers that sentence might stand it falleth owt still against him that the argument off authoritie hathe no force as that which hathe no credit off it selffe but as altogither lame is faine to borowe feete off an other And then the D. should haue considered that for so muche as the reason off authoritie standeth for the cause and sake off an other that is to saye for the argument off causes and other places it must needes be worse then the arguments wherupon it hangeth for that for whose cause another thinge is is better thē the thing which dependeth vpon it And therby further followeth that forsomuch as reason withowt authoritie is good and authoritie withowt reason nothing worthe that those argumentes whiche are grounded vpon reasons are better then those which are grounded vppon authoritie And wheras peraduenture he will seke some colour of defence off his absurd speache in the wordes which he addeth of suche learned men as do rightly interprete the scripture that addition as it taketh not awaye from the absurditie so it addeth to the folie and impropretie of speche For besides that he taketh that for graunted which is the question that is to saye whether it be rightlie interpreted or noo he should haue vnderstanded that the rightnes of the interpretation depēdeth not vpon the authoritie of the man or in that suche a godlie or learned man did so interprete it but in that the place is expounded agreablie vnto the suite of the texte And that the D. which vnder the name off auncient authoritie would oppresse the truthe may vnderstand that euen in this magnifiyng of authoritie he is not so good a scholer o◠disciple off his pretended masters of diuerse sentences off the fathers them selues wherby some haue likened them vnto brute beastes withowt reason which suffer themselues to be led by the iudgement and authoritie off others some haue preferred the iudgement of one simple rude mā alledging reason vnto companies off learned men I will content my selffe at this time with two or thre sentences Ireneus saith Vvhatsoeuer is to be shevved in the scripture can not be shevved but of the scriptures thē selues 3. l. 12. c. Iero. saith No man be he neuer so holie or eloquent hathe any authoritie after the Apostles Augustin saith that he vvill beleue none hovv godly and lerned so euer he be vnles he confirme his sentence by the scriptures or by some reason not cōtrary to them And in an other place heare this the Lord saith heare not this Donatus saithe Rogatus saithe Vicentius saith Hilarius saith Ambrose saith Augustin saithe but harken to this the Lord saithe And againe hauinge to doo withe an Arrian affirmeth that neither he ovvght to bringe forthe the councell off Neece nor the other the councell of Arimin therby to btinge preiudice eche to other neither ovvght the Arrian to be houlden by the authoritie off the one nor him selffe by the authoritie of the other but by the scriptures vvhiche are vvitnesses proper to neither but common ro bothe matter vvith matter cause vvith cause reason vvith reason ovvght to be debated And in another place against Petiliane the donatian hereticke he saith Let not these vvordes be heatd betvvene vs I Saye yovv Saye let vs heare this Thus saithe the lord and by and by speaking off the scriptures he saithe there let vs seeke the churche there let vs trie the cause Here yt is manifest that the argument of authoritie off man affirmatiuely is nothing worthe which the answerer notwithstanding maketh so great accounts off likewise that reason whiche is not directly against the trewth is preferred to authoritie which the A. denieth and if Augustin thowght that in a matter off controuersie the authoritie off so manye godlie and learned fathers as were assembled at that Councell off Nece interpeting the scriptures rightlie owght not to be alledged not onelie to condemne and conuince but not so muche as to preiudice an heresie long agoo condemned iff he would haue the trewth tried by the scripture onely let all men iudge how euill a folower off Augustin the D. is which in the authoritie of one or two men layeth so great weight that he thinketh that kinde off proufe to be the best proufe off his and ouerthrowe off his aduersaries cause And iff at any time it happened vnto him as it did against the Donatistes ▪ and others to alledge the authorite off the auncient fathers which had bene before him yet that was not done before be had layed a sure foundation off his cause in the scriptures and that also being prouoked by the aduersaries off the treuth who bare themselues highe off some Councell or off some man off name that had fauoured their parte And therfore iff the A. would salue this with the example off Augustin in other places yet for that he neuer in any cause laieth any foundation either of any scripture or colour of scripture ād being prouoked flieth still from it as from the rocke and sandes o his cause it is clere that if he had that authoritie which he pretendeth vntrulie on his side yet the vse off it in this sorte were bothe by the rule off
your faulte remainethe still For I noted your vnskilfulnes in that yow setting downe certeine argumentes which yow referred to the fallation off Secundum qui◠afterwardes make the argumentes off authoritie negatiuely and negatiues by comparison two seuerall kind off argumentes from the first whiche notwithstanding are not diuerse but conteined vnder the former place And that we walke not altogither in the cloudes from the vnderstanding off the simpler yt is all one as yff a man should saye there are three sortes off English men one sowthren the other Bentishe the thirde Middlesex Yff Maister Crammer neuer vsed suche Logicke suche a personage hath great iniurie to be compelled to communicate withe this absurditie for it nothing helpeth yow that he vsed this manner off speeche off Negatiues by comparison vnlesse that yow shew that he makethe them a seuerall kinde from those off Secundum quid And when M. D. is not affraid to offre thes vnto the tast off the learned men he askethe me whether I blushe not trifle in this sorte The trewthe is I am ashamed to haue taried so longe in soo smale a matter and iff yow had charged me withē ignorance onelie and not with falsifiyng your wordes I would I assure yow haue let yow gone withall and I will promise yow from hēceforth what occasion so euer yow giue this wayes excepte it be manifestly ioyned with defence off the cause yow shall doo yt withowt answere Where he complainethe off wante off answere in the nexte section he dothe me wrong seing I referred him to another place for answere To the next section I haue answered To the next sect pag. 28. IFF this sentence he that is a good and a modest preacher will not disdaine as well to be taught as teach be not an idle vagabonde and broken loose from all his followes then it must needes be a reason off that wherin yow said before that yow knew no man so well learned but yt might become him to reade and learne Maister Nowellles Cathechisme and the Argument is as I haue gathered it For yow to proue that yt becommeth the authors off the admonition to learne that Cathechisme adde that the place off Timothie dothe not forbidd to learne And againe a Modest preacher will not disdaine to be taught So that this is your argument A modest preacher must be taught therfore he must learne that Cathechisme and therfore must be enioyned to learne yt And iff yow saie that yow set yt downe to shew that no man is so well learned but he may learne still or to shew that the place off Saint Paule dothe not forbidd to learne I aske to what purpose Considering that the authors off the admonition do not denie that a Minister owght to learne but that yt is vnmeete for a Mynister to be enioyned to learne Cathechismes And as for all the argumentes which the D. gatherethe himselfe owt off this place they are so manie witnesses against him that he fowght with his owne shadowe For where he still concludethe they may reade Cathechismes he concludeth that whiche the admonition denieth not but that whiche the admonition denieth to be meete which is to driue a minister to learne Cathechismes he neuer concludeth Yt shal be therfore at your owne choise whether yow will haue that your argument that I haue framed or els that yow haue not spoken to the matter Vnto the 32 sect pag 28 IN orators I graunt it is a great point off arte to hide arte that it appeare not but when a man setteth him selffe to confute the opener and plainer way hathe alwaies bene most commendable So that iff this were your order yt had bene good that yow had set vp some marke by a transition wherby we might haue vnderstanded yt I know not what happened vnto others but I confesse I sawe no suche order I see this whiche also is true in your former answers that in goinge abowte to heale one wounde yow giue your selffe an other for going abowte to put from yow the absurditie off this argument yow confesse that yow bestowe great labor to proue that which was not in controuersie betwene the admonition and yow the other shal be sene in there places To the next section answere shal be made in the place wherunto he referreth vs For the next vnto that I answere that this is a vaine shift the aduantage wheroff he can not take to excuse his folie For this reason which he here alledgeth he had cited owt off Maister Bucer and Maister Martyr page 258 and immediately after in the page 239. he pretendeth that he will bringe other reasons besides this to proue that the surplis dothe edifie and therfore beginneth a freshe withe furthermore and then addeth Secondlie wheras iff it be trew which he here alledgeth in his pretence off going further he standeth still and remoueth not an ynche For the next vnto that I saye as I said before and referre it to the iudgemente of the reader whether I haue not onelie not corrupted your meaninge but almost conceiued mine argument in the same wordes which yow vse And wher yow so boudlie in asking affirme that capp gowne and tippet vsed in poperie are good signes for that they are signes of good thīges namely off the ministers off the worde I shewed how vntrue that rule is in the 57. and 60. pages against whiche if yow haue any thinge to saye yow shall there vnderstand further To the next pag. 30. MD. taketh it for a thinge assured that the authors of the adminitiō in sayinge that those that first authorised the booke of common praier were studious off peace and buildinge off the church meant that they were so in collectinge and authorisinge that booke for why els saithe he should they speake of them I answere that they had good occasion to saye so to meete withe slaunderous tonges which for the mislikinge off some thinges donne by them are ready to charge them as thowghe they condemned the men or misliked off all thinges they did And althoughe that be graunted whiche he presumeth vppon yet the faulte off the argument remaineth the same it did for thowghe they were studious off peace and buildinge the churche in so doinge yt might well be that they toke not the best way to peace and propounding them selues a good ende chose not the best meanes of comminge thervnto And for this purpose iff I be not deceiued in our Ecclesiasticall storie off king Edwards times it is set foorth how vpon sute made by the Emperour that the ladie Marie which then was might for her selfe haue the exercise off the masse M. Crammer and Master Ridley and I know not who moo became suters to the kinges maiestie that the request off the Emperour might take place I dowbt not but those good men were studious off the peace and buldinge off the churche in this request and propounded that for their ende and yet king Edward that resisted their requeste was neither puller downe
off the church nor disturber off the peace but pleased god and lefte a notable example to all posteritie off Kinges and Queenes that they should not for any respecte of kindred league or allie suffer any suche pollution in their landes The same also might be fall vnto them in gatheringe off the booke for it maye well be that there purpose was by that tempere off popishe ceremonies with the gospell partly the easelier to drawe the papistes to the gospell whilest fearing that they would not frame them selues to yt yt should be some what framed vnto them partely to redeme peace therby the breach wheroff they feared might haue ensued off suche a perfecte and throwgh chaunge as the sinceritie off the gospell required Yff this were there purpose they were studious of peace and buildinge of the churche but yet erred in the meane so it appeareth that it being graunted vvhich the A. demaundeth yet my gathering off his argument is iustified To the 37. sect pag. 30. WHie should yow note here that Cyprians place was abused by the Papistes yt is besides your purpose and contrary to the law to leaue your matche withe whom your are collered and take yow to a stander by For so vnhappelie is it come to passe that the papistes whose disorders and corruption off the discipline off Christ were here oppugned haue founde yow their champion to fight for them whilest they looke on And to what ende seruethe this headlesse arrowe not shott but picked owt against the Papistes They are god be praised substantially conuinced off the corruption off this place off Cyprian by diuerse learned men so that this bare affirmation that Cyprian speakethe not off the vsurped authoritie off the Bishopp off Rome besides yt is owt off season dothe rather moue laughter and confirme the enemie in his obstinacie then giue him remedie against his error But what weighethe this word for in our language is it not a causall and rendreth a reason off that which goethe before Whiche yow haue therfore by all lykelihoode lefte owt that this poore shifte might haue some colour the reste is answered before Vnto the next I answere that yt shall appeare when I come to that place whether there be suche reasons or no. In the next sectioÌ„ he chargeth me in great wordes withe vntruthe and askethe me where I finde in the â—3 page this argument that by that there was one offeuerie congregation he prouethe that there was one ouer a whole prouince To whom I answere that in that he concludethe an Archebishopp ouer a prouince vpon Ignatius places whiche speake off a Bishop in euerie churche he makethe the same argument whiche I haue made To the next page 32. being bare denials and false accusations I answere not Vnto the next sect pag. 33. LEauing his vntrue accusations I answere that where he saithe that the case off Luther and Zuinglius off Circumcision and preaching vnto gentilles which I alledged are not like for that they be substantiall pointes of religion and these be not it is his oulde cuckoes songe For we offer to proue this also off the substance off Religion And I browght the examples onely to shew that to be vntrue which he goethe abowt to perswade that all those which contende where the gospell is preached are to be holden for disturbers Thother difference which he placeth in that Luther and Zuinglius did that which they did in strininge abowt the SacrameÌ„t by consent off theire seuerall magistrates althoughe he dothe not make that appeare yet I aske him what Zuinglius c. should haue done iff the Magistrate would not haue suffred him to answere should he haue suffred the truthe to be destitute off his defence Where he citeth owt off Zuinglius that the gospell is a sworde to deuide the faithfull and therfore that this doctrine which hathe made a diuision in the church can not be good I answere that althoughe he might well saye it to the Anabaptistes and that yt so comethe to passe for the most parte yet that can be no generall rule consideringe that the preaching that circumcision was not necessarie although it deuided those off the church which beleued it from those that did not beleue it yet those which did not beleue it did not ther fore cease to be off the churche and off the numbre off the faithfull The Sermon which our Sauior Christ had amongest his disciples and those that beleued in him touching that his fleshe was the true meate and his bloude the true drinke which who soeuer did not eate and drinke could not haue life in hym did make suche a cut amongest the Disciples that all sauing twelue departed from our Sauiour Christ Yff they made a full departure and Apostasie it is euident that the gospell cureth euen those which be in the church cleane from it yff they did not vtterlie forsake the gospell but offended at that sermon were not as before dailie folowers off our sauior Christ yet it is cleare that that doctrine of the gospell did make apartition betwene the twelue and those other which went there waies in that they beleued that sermon which the other did not they were taught and the other offended Wherupon it foloweth that ether the doctrine which our Sauiour Christ preached was not the truthe or els the truthe may sometimes deuide the faithfull amongest themselues I could cite diuerse other examples bothe owt off the Actes off the Apostles and owt off S. Iohn but these shall suffise to shew the vanitie off M. D. reason And iff he will saye that iff he err M. Zuinglius errethe withe him he is vecelie vnworthy the name off a Deuine that carethe not how ofte he fallethe so he maye fall withe companie Howbeit I haue shewed howe M. Zuinglius sayinge may be vpholden and yet make nothinge for the confirmation off that which he would proue To the next pa. 36. IT fareth withe M. D. as withe malefactors whiche hauing left somethinge behinde them wherby they may be knowen for feare off that whiche foloweth renounce it vtterlie to be theirs But that the conclusion off all thes articles is as I haue set downe that is to saye that the authors off the admonition are either Anabaptistes or in the waye to Anabaptisme albeit he here denie yt I reporte me to the conscience off all those that shall reade him And let his vvordes be considered vvhich be that Anabaptiisme is almost plainely professed in the admonition and so be iudged vvhether I haue trulie gathered his meaning yea or no. I haue spoken so plainelie in that the Answerer maketh so straunge and weroff he requireth more open speache that I can not speake plainlier I vse the wordes which are worne in all schooles and writers which haue occasion to speake off these matters I gaue that which I said light by examples Notwithstandinge he can not see how the Ministerie off England maye be commonlie and for the moste parte vnlawfull and
him that faulteth that waies to be no meÌ„bre off the churche S. Paule found greater scismes in the churche off Corinthe then those were and yet he rebuked them withe an other spirite then yow vse neiter dothe he cut them of from the church but in the spirite off mildnes restoreth them And iff yow had learned that yow ought not to breake a brused reede nor quenche the smoking flaxe yow would haue dealte otherwise then yow doe Yf so be that the churche of England were reformed as yow would beare vs in hande and the Bishops by castinge owt off their ministers owt off their churches had not giuen the occasion of suche departure the departure had bene more vntollerable And therfore as muche as yow add to the amplisyinge of their faulte so muche yow encrease off the sinÌ„e of the bishops which withowt iust cause gaue occasion of that division There is great difference betwene the preaching off the Anabaptistes and heretikes and the preaching off those brethren for the Anabaptistes and other heretikes preachinges be with the vpholding off their false opinions and doctrine contrarie to Scripture werwith yow are not able to charge them in the least pointe but that in all doctrine whiche yow preach truely they preach the same withe yow And vvhere yow saie Disiuncrely that oftentimes the word of god is preached amongest the Anabaptistes and heretikes or the Sacramentes administred in those congregations which yow make Anabaptistes or like vnto them bothe the worde was preached and the Sacramentes Ministred togither And therfore if yow did purposely put that Or rather then and then whilest yow vvrote your conscience offred yow a manifest difference betwene the Anabaptistes and those brethren And iff yow did not put yt purposely but meane that in the conuenticles off the Anabaptistes and heretikes bothe the vvord off god is preached and his sacramentes administred speaking so precisely I would gladlie know off yow vvhat difference yow make betwene the conuenticles of the Anabaptistes and heretikes and the churche off God seing that the preaching off the word and ministring off the sacramentes are the infallible notes thereoff Ind this ought to haue giuen yow occasion off a softer worde yff yow had not bene driuen by the tempeste of your affection rather then led by any quiet and staied iudgement off the truthe Because it is your oulde wont and either yowe can not or wil not proue or improue your sayinges by the word off god I will not stand to note how that vppon Augustins worde onelie withowt any proufe owt off the word off god yow haue here cut a numbre from the churche yf yow bind so harde and locke so fast yow should haue brought the bonde and Keye off the word off god that the conscience which onely looketh vnto the word off god seinge it selffe in that daunger might be carefull to seeke how to be deliuered The glosse and the Text varie here For the one in saying that it standeth me good name vpon to bring them owt which are free wil men and holde consubstanstantiation semeth to denie that there be any suche The other by saying that theÌ„re are not so manye and that they are not iustified do the indirectlie confesse it And if yt were not confessed the thinge is so notorious that albeit I name them not yet I nede not to feare the supition off vntruthe in that which hathe so manie witnesses And where yow saye there are not so many off them as off those whom yow most falsely and slaunder ouslie call puritanes As I reioice therin in the behalffe off the churche off England so it standeth not by any diligence good foresight or discipline off yours that the churche swarmeth not with them seinge they are suffred to haue the highest places in the churche vvhere vvith the leuaine off their false doctrine they may sowre not one towne as it vvere thre peckes but vvhole shires as it vvere a vvhole heape or fatte or other off the largest measures off the lordes meale in our countrey And so althoughe they be not by wordes mainteined yet they are in deede not onelie mainteined but also by suche sufferance in those places rewarded Vnto the nine next sections I answere nothinge In the laste section 45. pag. vnto the places off Saint Paul vvherby I proue that yt is no breache off trew Christianitie to alter in iudgement he answereth that the Apostles meaning is not that men shoulde be dailie altering their iudgement and broching new opinions which is no answer to the question For althowghe we maie not dailie broche newe opinions yet vve owght to correcte our oulde errors as often as we are made vnderstande them So that vnles he will saye that those which beleue the gospell are vvithowte the daunger off error in thinges perteining to the gouernement off the churche c. or that when they knowe their errors they shoulde not amende them boothe which are absurde it muste needes folowe that he goeth abowte to abuse the reader vvhiche vppon that vve haue chaunged Iudgement vvoulde drawe vs into the suspition off lightnes and vnconstancie And seing the churche off Englande chaunged the booke of common praier twise or thrise after yt had receiued the knowledge of the gospell and allwaies corrected some thinge off that whiche yt helde for good before either the answerer must condemne those alterations as childishe and vnconstant or els he must confesse that a whole churche lightened wythe the knowledge off the gospell and established in a certeine order off gouernement maye with owte feare off suspition off that liÌ„ghtenes which he dooth surmise displace the former order and place an other Vnto the 4. nexte I answer nothing sauing that where the glosse chargeth me with contrarietie I desire the reader to consider what contraririe or what colour off contraritie there is betwene thes sayinges the churche can not longe continevve vvithovvt common vvelthes and the churche maye be established vvithovvt a Christian magistrate Yff I had saide that the churche might be established witheowt a magistrate then there had bene some likelyhood off the contrarietye he surmyseth But he shoulde vnderstande as longe as their be magistrates althowghe they be not onely vnchristian but Tyrannicall and persequuting yet the blessing which the lorde geueth vnto his owne ordinance so ouercometh all their malice that ther ceaseth not come euen from that disordered gouernement some thinge to the preseruacion of the churche The answer which his glosse asketh for towching churlishe ansvvering althowghe yt deserued none is page 177. and he coulde not be ignorante but I referred him in the answer to the seuenth article Vnto the firste parte off the laste Section page 47. I answer nothing For answer vnto the later parte towching the place of Timothe wherby he wolde proue that men maye offer them selues to the ministerie I will referre the reder to the treactise off the discipline off â—he churche lately set forthe where this is answered
they haue nether generally nor continually bene receiued Where he alledgeth Zuinglius vsing a sentence off Augustine not muche vnlike to confirme childrens baptisme yt is to be noted that Zuinglins vsed not that sentence but in the confirmacion off a thing which hath certeine testimonie owt off the word off God as hath childrens baptisme whereit could not be dangerous and then yt is to be obserued that thereby is ouerthrowne his whole answer For Zuinglius taking that sentence off thinges which haue a necessarye obseruation in the church off God aÌ„d can not be chaunged putteth to flight his whole answer with the defense theroff which supposeth Augustine to haue gyuen this rule off thinges indifferent And therefore either the A. is abused in vnderstanding thes places off thinges indifferent or els Zuinglius in vsing this for the necessitie off childrens baptisme gaue his aduersaries great aduantage whilest they might haue answered with the D. that that authoritie off the Apostels is suche as the church vpon consideration may alter And where he alledgeth M. Caluin as one which had vsed that rule off Augustine I answer that yt is one thing to alowe the sentence off a writer and another thing to take some aduantage off it when his aduersarie presseth hym with his authoritie A man vseth some time that defense prouoked by the manner off assault off his ennemie which he would not doo iff he might choose his owne fight and it might serue M. Caluin in part for arm our against the bare autoritie off Augustine vrged off the Papistes which is not of proofe against the shot off the word off God. Where he saieth that the Papistes haue no wicked thing which ether hath bene generally obserued or whereoff he is not able to shewe the first autor I answer that it is well the church standethe not in neede off this defense off yowres For if the Lenten fast which in Augustines time had bene by longe coustome receiued if holy water holy oyle the superstition off praying towardes the East which are off those traditions that in the place by him alledged owt off Basile are attributed vnto the Apostles yff those I saie and suche like be against the word off God let hym tell howe he will cleare the Apostels of being autoures off these corruptions which are fathered of them by men off suche credit onlesse he flye to this rocke which by the doctrine off traditions he goeth abowte to vndermine that is to saie that the Apostles haue left in writing whatsoeuer they would haue the churches obserue For what autoritie soeuer he bring to shewe who were the first inuentors of these thinges yt being humane is counteruailed by them which haue caried them vnto the times off the Apostels Where vppon on that I saide that all the commandementes off God and off the Apostels are nedefull for our saluation he maketh such a terrible owtcrie as if all the church had bene set on fire I dowbt whether for the vanitie of the accusation I should vouchesafe yt of answer which for the strong and bitter wordes might seme to require a large defense Howbeit let him vnderstand that when I speake of all the commandementes of God and off the Apostels nether by the deduction off that which I handled nor by any Iudgement not altogether peruerted could I be thowght to meane any other commaundementes then those which perteine vnto vs And iff I had met with the vainest trifler and hawker after syllables which can possibly be yet the sentence I set downe is sufficiently fenced against all his greedines of snapping at yt For the Ceremoniall lawe and personall lawes giuen in times paste being nowe no commaundementes off God and the Apostels can not be comprehended vnder my wordes off the commandementes off God c. And iff a man leuing the deduction off the cawse which I had in hand will staie in the bare wordes which I vsed then euen bothe cermoniall and those which were giuen to particular persones albeit they be not to be doone yet are they for our better instruction in the will off God needefull for our saluacion To the argument which I vsed that iff Augustine would haue vs doo those thinges which the Apostels vsed in the churches not committed to writing then muche more he would haue bene off aduise that we should kepe that which is committed to writing towching their gouernement off the church he answereth nothing In the thirde diuision pag. 107. to that I found fault with off the second rule off Augustine which is that yt is madnes ether not to kepe or to reason off that vvhich is vniuersally obserued off the church he answereth that was a rule for Augustines time and not for all times Wherein he first condemneth him selfe off wandring from the cause which to shew that some thing may be established in our church not commaunded in the scripture alledgeth a rule that belongeth not vnto vs Then it is manifest howe helpeles a shift this is considering that the rule is generall and as generally gyuen as any other the rules which the A. comendeth vnto vs out off Augustine Beside that I alledged that euen in August time yt was wicked to giue any such autoritie to the decree or custome of men as not to enquire into yt which because he durst not denie he left vnanswered And whereas he addeth if it be not repugnant to the word I shewed that Augustine could haue no suche meaning which althoughe he confesse in one word contrary to that which he set downe yet in the same page lest the truthe should get any victorie at his handes he dooth in effect denie yt For he saithe that Aug. hath sondry times in suche rules made this exception iff they be not against faith c. Where yt is manifest that this exception is of those rules which are diuersly obserued and which he openly opposeth vnto this rule and suche as this is off the necessary obseruacion off thinges The place vnto the Gall. was needefully opposed For if there be commandementes off the Apostells vnto the churches and thinges which yt is madnes not to kepe or to enquire into not writen there ys something necessary to saluacion which S. Paul preached not considering that the whole summe off his preaching is cowched in writing The place off Augustine off abrogating ceremonies otherwise indifferent he answereth was not for his pourpose Howbeyt of his pourpose had bene to haue boulted owt the truthe yt â—â— cleare that hauing this cawse in hand whether ceremonies in them selues indifferent owght to be remoued he would not haue dissembled yt As for that he chargeth me with leuing owt off thinges before in the middest and after and thereof hath almoste fylled a whole syde it is vtterly vnworthy any answere considering that I haue left nothing owt which is in controuersie nothing which I doo not willingly confesse nothing that he hathe any aduantage by yea I left that
compasse off the law as can be the A. in imagining that vve haue no word for diuers thinges wherein the Iewes had particular direction presupposeth gteater perfection in the lawe gyuen vnto the Iewes then in that vvhich is left vnto vs And that this is a principal vertue off the lawe may be seen not onely by that I haue shewed that a conscience well instructed and towched with the feare off God seeketh for the light off the word off God in the smallest actions but euen by common reason the masters whereoff giue this rule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to saie that yt greatly behoueth those lavves vvhich are vvell made as muche as can be to determine of all thinges and to leaue as fevve thinges as may be to the discretion off the iudges Where he saithe that the examples I browght off orders vvhich the Iewes did vvell obserue vvhereoff there was no expresse mention in the lawe off God make not to the pourpose for that he spake off ceremonies vsed abowt the worship off God I answer that that vvhich I haue alledged is a manifest confutation off those wordes which he hathe set downe nether was ther the least thing to be doon in the church omitted in the lawe For are not these thinges vvhich I browght example off to be doon in the church are they not Ecclesiasticall orders yea are not part off them which he denieth perteining to the seruice off God Yf these orders off the howre for the morning and afternoone sacrifice off preaching the vvord off God in a place vvhere yt may be best hard off fasting for the better humbling off the people before the lord in praier be not orders and Ceremonies perteining to the worshipp off God then the daylie sacrifices preaching the vvord off God and calling vppon his name vvhereunto these belonged are no partes off the worshipp off God then the vvhich there is nothing more absurde And verily this is not by iugling or sleight off hand to deceiue the eyes off the reader but by flat facing to endenour to make hym tourne them from the truthe That vvhich I said off the Iewes Ecclesiasticall gouernement by the morall and Ceremoniall lawe onely and not by the iudiciall as that vvhich may be cast downe with reasons owt off the vvord of God vvhich is here onely doon by autoritie of men I am vvell content it fall So that I haue no fault to finde vvith the Ans in this behalfe but that the vveapon he strooke this vvith all vvas not sharp enoughe Diuision 5. pag. 120 c. Of the nomber off thinges vvhich the Iewes had not particulerly decided by the lawe the reason is apparant vvhich I haue assigned that this hyndereth not but that there is a vvord and generall commandement to direct them by hath bene shewed that it is a vaine cauill that maketh doubt whether in saying that vve haue the same lavves to direct vs in the seruice off God vvhich the Ievves had I meane the Ceremoniall lawe or no appeareth by that vvhich I set downe in the third diuision p. 118. vvhere I receiuing the morall lawe for our direction left the Ceremoniall and of the same sort is that vvhich he vvrangleth in becawse I saie the nevve Testament is a noble addition vnto the ould considering that I adding vvherein namely that it maketh the ould more manifest and bringeth greater light shut owt all euen the least occasion off suche trifling And this maner of speach that I haue vsed Maister Caluin vvhich is here opposed hath him selff vsed Where he calleth in this respect the gospell an addition vnto the lavve yt remaineth to see vvhether in the matter off the iudiciall lawe that vvhich I haue set downe be straunge and daungerous as the A. surmiseth or no. It is not as the A. surmiseth vntruly that the magistrate is simply bound vnto the iudicial lawes off Moses but that he is bound to the equitie which I also called the substance and marrowe off them In regard off vvhich equitie I affirmed that there are certen lawes amongest the Iudicialles which can not be chaunged And hereof I gaue example in the lawes vvhich command that a stubbern Idolater blasphemer murtherer incestuous person and suche like should be put to death For the first point that the equitie of the iudicialls doth remaine ād therfore owght to be a rule to direct al lawes by to let passe the autoritie of M. Caluin M. Beza and other writers off our time that haue writen with any iudgement off this matter which doo in plaine wordes affirme that there is a perpetuall equitie in them and that our lawes albeit they differ in forme yet owght to reteine the reason or ground of them I saie to let that passe yt is to be considered that all these lawes morall Ceremoniall and Iudiciall being the lawes off God and by his reueled will established must so far forth remaine as yt appeareth not by his will that they are reuoked And seing that the alteration which is come in this behalfe is by the comming off our Sauiour Christ onely yt is to be inquired what those lawes are which he put end vnto Which thing may be considered in that diuision which Saint Paul vseth where he saith that our Sa. Christ came to make peace first betwene God and men and then betwene men and men that is to say betwene the Iewes and Gentils The Ceremoniall lawe therefore beinge a lawe of enimitie which as a wall held owt the Gentils from ioyning them selues vnto the Iewes was necessary amongest other cawses in this respect to be taken away The curse off the lawe for the breache of any the lawes of god ether perteining to the Iewes in tymes past or vnto vs nowe being that which maketh the wall betwene the Lord and vs was for our reconciliation with his maiestie necessarily to be remoued Wherevppon followeth first that the morall lawe as that which nether hindereth our reconciliation with the Lord not our good agreement with men is in as full strenght as euer it was before the comming of our Sauiour Christ For the curse off the lawe beside that it is in regard off the elect rather fulfilled and executed in the persone off our Sa. Christ then abrogated beside that also yt hath a necessary vse as yet towardes the elect not onely to driue them to the faith which is in Christ Iesus but also to kepe vnder the remantes of rebellion euen of them which haue already beleued and beside that the force thereoff is daily ād shal be for euer execured vpon the wicked beside all this seing this curse was annexed not onely to the breache off the morall lawe but also off the Ceremoniall and Iudiciall there is no iuste cause why the morall lawe should be sayde to be abrogated At the least it can not stand which the Ans hathe very daungerously set downe that the whole lawe off god generally is
remaine yt is more worthie to be called the signe off the sworde then the sworde Nowe yf twoo notable errors be hable to proue one trewthe he maye be thowghte to haue browghte something for the iustifyinge off this pullinge downe off the walle off the common welthe But iff it muste needes be false whiche hath nothinge to leane vppon but error I dowbte not but as the vntrewthe of yt doothe by yt selfe appeare so by this so shameles defence yt is laide more open And where he saithe that this sentence off Cyrill maie Minister occasion of quarrelinge vnto suche as be disposed I answere that there can be no peace withe this sentence but by betrayinge the trewthe and that the vntrewthe of yt is so apparante that all the patched shiftes whiche he hathe shall neuer be hable to hide yt But howsoeuer yt be saithe he this is euidente What forsooth that the quantitie off synne is not to be estemed accordinge to the externall punishmente Howe is it euidente by what worde or by what sentence yff the autoritie off the sentence fall iff it consistinge vppon two partes haue neuer a one trewe yff in that verie poincte for whiche yt is alledged yt is moste false where ys your Howe so euer yow are a daūgerous aduersarie to deale withe al for whether the profes yow t bringe be trewe or whether they be false they fall still vpon your syde But if the heynousenes of the synne be not to be estemed according to the corporall punishmente wherby is it then to be estemed accordinge saie yowe vnto the commaundemente of god accordinge to the threates of god pronounced againste yt As thowghe yt were not the commaundemente off God that there shoulde be bodylie punishemente and as thowghe the ciuill punishementes in this worlde were not parte off those threates wherwithe the lorde threatneth the breakers of his lawe Yow make therfore an opposition where none is And it is all one as if yow had saide the corne maye not be moten withe a bushel but withe a measure For as the busshell is one measure so is the corporall punishemente bothe one off the commaundementes and off the threates of god againste open sinnes Salomon prouethe Adultery to be a greater sin̄e then thefte for that where a thefe was not the adulterer was purswed vnto deathe wherbie it is manifest that She lomo was of this iudgement that in open faultes committed against a godly and honest peace the greater faultes owght to be punished with more greauous punishement And if equalitie of punishement in vnequall faultes be iniustice how myche more is yt iniuste to punishe greater faultes with les and lesser with greater punishements And therfore that nothinge shoulde be wantinge to proue the doctor a perfecte confounder and tumbler of thinges in to the heapes of disorder he dothe not onelie put no differēce betwene the thinges whiche are seperate but in those also whiche are ioyned together he imagineth suche enemitie as yf the one standinge the other coulde not remaine And as for his reason that we see smaller faultes punished withe greater tormente the questiō is not what we see doone but what owghte to be done I graūte that one and the same faulte maie be punished sharpelier in one contrie then in an other in the same contrie also sharpelier at some tyme then at an other But I denie that theroff yt followethe that in the same contrie and at the same tyme a greater faulte shoulde be punished withe lighte punishmente and a lighter withe a greate whiche thinge seinge yow excepte againste a generall rule owght to haue beene shewed And the vanitie off this startinge hoole whiche is soughte in the diuersitie of contries maye partlie appeare in that to the people off the Iewes ād in the countrie off Iewry the lorde did neuer make lawe to punishe a les faulte by a greater punishement And yet yt is certaine both that people and countrie had some thing different from others and that in gyuinge lawes to that people he had respecte boothe to them and their countrie whereby I conclude that diuersities off punishementes accordinge to the state off the countries may be established althowghe ther be no suche disorder committed off punishinge small faultes greuously and greuous faultes smallye And wheras he saithe that he makethe the difference off the seueritie off the lawe and lenitie off the gospell no further then in respecte off the temporall punishemente off the lawe euen that is the very poincte wherin a greate parte off the error off the Maniches doothe consiste For they were led to condemne the iustice off God vnder the olde Testamente because off the owtewarde punishementes vvhiche were exercised partly by the hande of God by iudgementes from heauen partely by the ministerie off men at the commaundemente off the lawe therfore the sauour off Manichisme is still as hoat as euer yt vvas And because I am entred into the mention off this althowghe the answerer can not hyrte off yt yet the trewthe is that euen in thes outwarde punishmentes the dispensation off God vnder the lawe is diuers from that vvhiche is vnder the gospell For vnder the scolemastershipe of the lawe as he crowned the obedience of yt for the moste parte vvithe greater aboundance off owtward blessinges then he dothe the obedience off his sainctes vnder the Gospell so did he vvithe more terrible oftener and more manifeste iudgementes reuenge the breache off yt in that time thē he dothe nowe And herein indeede is the differēce vvhiche he is gropinge a bowte but that this shoulde bringe any diuersitie in the set ād ordinarie punishemētes prescribed by the lawe I for my parte can not vnderstand The contrarie rather I can gather For euen as althowghe the lorde dothe not nowe by owtward blessinges giue so plentifull testimonie vnto the obedience off the gospell as then off the lawe yet the magistrate owghte to be as diligente to procure the Good off the churche as euer he vvas in the time off the law euen so althowghe the lorde by bodilie punishementes doothe not so seuerelie reuenge as he did then yet the magistrate maye not remitte any thinge therfore off that seueritie vvhiche he vvas vvonte to vse Nay more euen as the magistrate owghte so muche more carefully procure the owtwarde vvelfare of the churche nowe as the lorde vvithdrawethe his hande that vvaies more nowe then he did then euen so owghte he to kepe by so much a harder hande ouer the punishemente off synne now then he did then as the lorde more rarely thundereth by his Iudgements from heauen nowe then he did in the time off the lawe And surely if there euer had beene any time vvherin the magistrates svvorde mighte haue rested and rusted in the sheathe the time off the lawe of all had beene fitteste vvhen the lorde did so visiblye sit in his iudgmente seat and him selfe in proper person holde the assise and gaile deliuerie The causes off that
men beare witnes that bothe here and almoste euery where yow wringe my wordes clean contrary to my meaninge and therin I am well contente the Iudgemente remain with the reader And althowghe I am fully perswaded that ther was no occasion taken off euill by this doctrine yet if any weare it beinge the doctrine of the holy Goste whoso euer hathe taken occasion of euill hathe without repentance borne his punishemente and so shall yowe moste assuredly in that daye wherin the mouthe off wickednes shall be stopped Yt maie not be passed by that he in the begininge of the firste of thes sections matched the lawes off the Iewes whiche were the lawes gyuen by God him selfe vvithe the lawes of the moste barbarous and Prophane Tyrant that euer was suche is the reuerece he beareth to the lawes of god Note also that where I saie that I vvill ioyne vvithe him that the transgressions off the lavve vnder the gospell are to be seuerelyer punished then they vvere vnder the lavve He in pretendinge and makinge a brage that he woulde ioyne slyppethe me clean a syde and saythe that he will ioyne withe me that the magistrate is not bounde to the iudiciall lawe off Moses for the manner off punishinge as thowghe that were any thinge like that whiche I propounded And in that he answerethe no one worde to the two reasons whiche I alledged that is to saye for that bothe the knovvledge off the lavve is greater novve then thē and other gyftes off the spirite off God vvherby the lavve shoulde be better kepte more aboundantly povvred oute novve then then he dothe not onely slyppe a side but turnethe his blinde partes towardes me Nowe to returne backe to the Diuis pag. 123. I leaue to the iudgement off the reader howe importunate an aduersarie the D. is vvhich requireth answer of that which hath been so often answered In the next Diuis p. 124. seeking to mainteine his logicke in diuiding and defining he maketh him selffe pytifull to all that euer saluted that scoole For what an absurd saying is yt that becawse the definition off a generall thing agreeth vnto his particular therfore yt is the definition off the particular As though euery thing vvhich vvere verefied of an other were by and by the definition off it or as thoughe the same coulde be the definition of the generall and of the speciall And what a miserable defence of his diuisiō is yt which to proue that his three last partes are not conteined vnder the first alledgeth that they are not all one with the first But as I promised I will leaue this to the learned reader that I leese not the tyme in confuting off these tryfles The rest off his section is answered before In the next beside the sentence which I denie and he vntruly fathereth off Zuing. that in Ceremonies thinges are to be vsed in the church which are not conteined in the scriptures ▪ There is nothing which maketh any thing vnto the questiō For where he saieth that I mislike that of Zuing. If they be not repugnant to the vvord I haue tould him before that I neuer found fault with that but becawse he condēned the Ad. which will haue thē caste in the mould off the word off god And as for Maister Bezaes sentence repeted here off discipline left in the order off the church and that some thinges doon off the Apostles are not alvvaies to be follovved off vs whereby it seemed the D. would make the reader belieue that he meaneth this off the pointes of discipline nowe debated yff I should herein charge him with vntrue dealing vppon Maister Bezaes booke off epist. Which declareth in so many places and wordes that there is a Discipline off God left vnto his churche vnchangeable and precisely determined in the word off God and howe he maketh the partes thereoff the same which the D. fighteth against with might and maine he would paraduenture saie that he could take no notice off that which was not yet brought to light But when the same booke from whence he drewe thes outorities mainteneth those partes off discipline towching the Eldershipp the consent off the church in Eccesiasticall elections the right institution off Deacons c. as necessarye which he will haue arbitrarie he owght to haue vnderstanded that those thinges which M. Beza noteth vnder the name off Discipline left at the order off the church are nothing lesse then these which he would insinuate Which he might yet easelier haue vnderstanded by the place which he alledgeth out off the Corinthes that leaueth yt not in the churches power ether who shall gouerne or what they ought to doo which must gouerne but howe that gouernement which is prescribed may be vsed most decently in regard off circumstance off time c. For euen in that place the Apostle defining off certen pointes of discipline as that vvemen ought not to speake in the church c. declared sufficiently that he ment not to leaue the gouernement off the church in her owne disposition and order But what M. Beza ment by this arbitrarie Discipline yt shall yet better appeare in the next tractate off the Election off the church where this here spoken generally shall there belaied open by example the reste off this Diuis is answered In the next Diuis I leaue yt to the iudgement off the reader whether I haue truly gathered off his wordes As for the defense he maketh to proue Truly and Purely all one for so he must if he mainteine his answer the first reason he bringeth that a man may preache true thinges and not truly is cleane ouerthrowne by his owne answ for to ouerthrowe that which he falsely attributeth vnto the Adm. that the word is not truly preached becawse the Ministers are not duely called he saithe that the reason is not Good becawse ho we wicked soeuer the man be which preacheth yet he may preache the true word off God. Here ether the Ans must make to preache true thinges and to preache truly all one or els he hath not answered to the argument he supposeth the Adm. to vse The other is for that S. Paul vseth these wordes in truthe for syncerely Wherein beside the former fault which is the contrarietie with him selfe he should haue learned that that maner off speach is taken off the Ebrues which as they call a lie not onely that which is spokē but that which is doon or imagined against the truthe so likewise contrary Which maner off speach not being receiued in our tounge is fondly and out off time pretended considering also that the translatiōs in our tounge as in others haue shunned that phrase as that which they could not reache vnto Tract 2. and 3. according to the D. Off election of the minister Cap. 1. Diuis 1. Off the Tryall off ministers in learning and conuersation THe replie standeth vpon the certeine and vnfallible grounde off the worde off God which is that the
churche owght not to put forwarde any to the holy Ministery without good tryal off his sufficientie Then yt is vpholden off the wordes off the texte that twoo were set vpp and caused to stand before the congregation For after that sainct Peter had declared what maner off man he owght to bee which should fill vp the voide place off Iudas immediatly S. Luke sheweth that twoo were put vpp as if he shoulde saye consider whether thes he suche or no as ought to chosen and which agree with that which is required off him that must supplye this place The reason wheroff was for that all the men which where in the churche at that time were not capable off that function hauing by no lykelyhood bene with our sauiour Christe continually from the begininge off his preaching vntill the day off his ascension And vnles that S. Peter mente to subiect those vnto the tryall off the churche which were to be chosen why instructed he the churche and gaue a rule to seuer and trie them by After the churche agreed eyther by voice or by silence that they were suche as behoued S. Peter wente forwarde and conceiued a praier as followethe there in the texte And that this is the plaine and naturall order off that action he that hathe but one eye may easely see The scripture is shorte and in a few wordes comprehendeth many thinges and touchinge certein pointes off a storie leauethe other to be gathered off the diligent reader sometimes which was doone before by expressing that which was doone after other sometimes that which is doone after by expressing that which was doone before Whereoff yff neede were yt is not harde to shew diuers examples And theroff is that sentence so often vsed off the Hebrew Doctours 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Scripture stayeth yt selfe vpon or presumeth an vnderstanding reader withowt the vvhiche yt shall seme very vnsufficient that ys most perfect and vvithowt the which a greate portion off the vvorde of God ys loste And vvhere as yow saye that yt is certaine that there was no tryall because they were sufficiently knowne first yt appeareth not by any wordes in the texte that they were sufficiently knowē And considering that as yt comethe comōly to passe in a persequuted churche there were by al likelihood some lately come to the church they might be well vnknowne to thē althowghe they vvere well knowne to others Thē the questiō is not whether they vvere examined or no but vvether they vvere set vpp to be tried so that iff there vvere a proferr off tryall althowghe no tryall folowed the place ys aptly alledged For albeit they were knowne to the vvhole companie so that there needed no inquirie into their behauiour or other thinges vvhiche are in the compas off the churche to iudge of yet that ys no cause why they shoulde not be offered to the examinaciō Nether is yt reason that the knowne habylytie off some one or twoo shoulde breake an ordinary lawe in the churche off god And yow that haue serued your selfe more thē once or twyce vvithowt cause as shall appeare off the manner of ciuill elections to ouerthrowe the Ecclesiasticall might here by the consideration off them haue bene delyuered from this abusinge off yowr selfe and others Yow knowe in the election off followes and scolers where the lawe commaundethe an examination before the election althowghe the parties to be chosen be neuer so sufficient and there sufficientie neuer so well knowne to all to vvhō the choise belongethe yet the offer of themselues to be examined is so necessary that if that be not they cā by no meanes be chosen If therfore mans lawe in suche small elections hath suche force that yt will giue place to no mans excellencye or singularitie how muche more owght the lawe of God vvhich byddethe generally vvithout exception that they shoulde be tryed vvhich are promoted to the ministery in so greate and weighty an election to kepe her force Where yow say ther was no other cause off presenting them then that which is expressed in the text tell me what cause is expressed off presentinge them in the congregation surely none that I reade those two which I alledged in my replie are gathered but none is expressed So that yf there vvere no other cause off there presenting then that vvhich is expressed there shoulde be none at all and that action off the Apostles should be to no purpose What expresse wordes are there in the texte contrary to this tryall or at the lest offer off triall the vvordes shoulde haue bene noted the meaning shoulde haue bene beaten owte where vve neede your helpe there you forsake vs vvhere the meaning is cleare and vvithout controuersie there you trouble your selfe and vs boothe Yf yt be a rule to be folowed yt must be followed wholy saith the answere This is very definitiuely and magistrally said and being a dangerous error as that vvhich tendeth to the ouerthrowe of the cheifest heads of Christian religion is notwithstanding farced with scoffing questions in derision off the truthe I neuer learned nor I doo not vse to add or take away from the word off God I expounde the scripture and gather off it vvhich is not to add and in saying that something is not to be follovved off vs I take nothing away for I confesse yt to be so as the storie reporteh And althoughe that parte be no example to follow yet euen now and to the ende yt conteinethe a profitable doctrine But if I take away from the scripture because I say that some Parte of that action is not to be follovved you do muche more that saye nothing theroff ys to be followed I distinguishe beweēne that which was for a tyme and that which is perpetual and to distinguishe is not to dismember Al the reuelations I haue are owt off the reueled worde off God I knowe that this parte off this action touching the examination ys to be followed because yt is confermed by other places off the scripture thother not so for that yt hathe not the like confirmacion This spirite off slumber whearwithe the lorde hathe striken yowe in that yowe say that if a rule be to be followed yt is to be obserued wholely shall better appeare when I come to yower answer of that which is writen in the 51. and 112. pages of my former booke where this is handled No doubte saith he this is an extraordinary example As Archidamus said to his son̄e beinge to venterowse and boldhardy either put to more strēght or take avvaie some of this courage so I must admonishe yow that either yow woulde come stronger withe argumētes or els goo softlier to thes doctoral determinatiōs Is yt without all doubte that all thinges are here extraordinary nothing of necessitie to be followed For so yow say when yow will not haue yt followed in other parte because some one is not to be followed What is yt not necessary
to admonishe those to whom the election off the ministers belongeth to tell them what maner a one owght to be chosen if that be not yet ys not this necessary to commend the election of the minister of the worde to the praiers of those whiche are presente at the election And where as he saithe that yt being extraordinary is not off necessitie to be followed he should haue saide that being extraordinary yt owght not to be followed Now vvhen he graunteth them to be suche as may be vsed althowghe not necessaryly he concludeth against him selfe that they are not extraordinary for as those thinges whiche are ordinarie in the worde off God owght to be followed so those thinges that are extraordinary are by no meanes of vs withowt an extraordinary spirite to be followed thinges whiche may be doone or lefte vndoone are nether ordinary nor extraordinari but haue a meane nature betweene bothe But as it is in in prouerbe the egle ketcheth no flies Maister D. hathe greater matters in hande then thes and yet to keepe the proprietie of speche profiteth muche to the keping off the pure nes of doctrine But the wordes off maister Caluine saithe he are plaine So they are in deede plaine to shewe your great vntreuth and plaine to shewe that which I contende for that is that althowghe some thinges are not to be followed yet other some thinges in this election are and owghte to serue for the direction off the election off the ministers nowe And because you shall not abuse the reader nether with the deniall off thinges to be so which are manifest nor guilfull escapes wherwithe yow goe aboughte to defeate the autorities which I alledge although yt be muche against my will to lenghthen my booke with translating so thicke and three folde of other mens sentences into mine yet being driuen to yt I had rather be somewhat troublesome to the reader then that yowr vnhonest practises shoulde not appeare to all that will not willingly close there eyes against the truthe But before I cum to maister Caluine I will set downe Cyprians wordes which are there commended by maister Caluin Cyprian therfore speaking off the election of a Minister writethe amongest other thinges thus God commandeth that the preyst shoulde be placed before the face off the vvhole congregation off the Ievves that is to say he dothe teache and shevve that the ordeininges off the ministers ovvghte not to be made but vvithe the knovvledge of the people standing by vvherby they being presente either theyr faultes shoulde be discouered or their vertues commended and so it may be a iuste and a lavvfull ordination vvhich is by the voyces and iudgemētes of all examined The vvhiche after vvard according to the dyuine mastershippe or authoritie is obserued in the Actes off the Apostels vvhere Peter speaketh vnto the people off ordeining a bishop into Iudas place Off which place fyrst yt appeareth that the people not onely had but oughte to haue to doo in the appointing off there minister and that not by any custome or decree off men but by the eternall worde off God bothe in the olde and newe Testament Also that theyr right consisteth bothe in examining the life off him which is to be chosen and in the approbation off him yff they like off him or refusall iff they like him not which Cyprian proueth bothe by the 20. off the numbers by this place and the sixte off the actes which he also citeth Now I come to maister Caluin After he hathe in the 13. section shewed that the election off the Apostell into Iudas place is no certaine rule for our elections he sheweth further whearin yt is no rule namely for that the election there was committed to lotte the vocation off an Apostell so requiring that by the iudgement off the lotte as yt were by Gods owne mowthe a successour might be appointed in steed off Iudas But in the 14. section he sheweth the lorde so approuethe off the iudgment off men vvhich he after expoundeth the churche that euen in the Apostels appointement vvhich haue this prerogatiue that they shoulde be created immediatly from God the iudgment off the churche shoulde not be passed by and to that endecitethe the 13. off the actes and 2. verse and this place off the first off the actes and 23. verse and off those places gathereth a perpetuall document to establishe the discipline and order off the churche in elections for euer Whearby appeareth that maister Caluins minde is not as the doctor woulde make vs beleue that ther can nothing be gathered out off this place perteining to our elections Afterward confuting them which vppon the places off Timothy and Titus gooe abowte to proue that the election off the ministers is in the Bishopps powre he saithe thus VVel therfore sayd CyPrian vvhyle he contendeth that yt commeth off the authoritie off god that the minister shoulde be chosen the people being presente in the eies off all and shoulde be by the cōmon iudgment and testimonie approued vvorthy and fitt And forth with reciting Cyprians vvordes before alledged and quoting this place off the Actes he concludeth in this sorte vvee haue therfore saith he that this is the lavvfull vocation by the vvorde off God vvhere those vvhich are chosen are appointed by the consent and approbation off the people Here againe yt is manifest that Maister Caluine vseth this place off the Actes to proue that the election owghte not to be withowte the approbation and consent off the people Furthermore speaking against the popishe election for that in yt all is in the pleasure off the bishoppe He citeth Leo and Cyprian which proue that by the worde off God the church owghte to haue her interest in the election off the minister and many Synodes which dooe severely prohibite suche elections and if they be made commaund that they shoulde be off none effect Then concludeth yff thes thinges be trvve there is this day in poperie no canonicall election nether by Godes nor by any ecclesiasticall lavve And if there vvere nothing els hovve can they excuse them selues that they haue spoiled the churche off her righte And so goeth forthe with confuting off the same reasons off the Papistes which are afterwardes alleadged off the doctor This may be sufficiente to let the reader vnderstande howe the Ans woulde shamefully abuse him with the authorytie off M. Caluin Wherin I doe not forget that in going abowte to proue that this place off the Actes hathe place in diuers pointes in the ordinary election I haue together with those places belonginge to the examinatiō pressed also those which touche the election yt selffe Which I did pourposely that I myghte not be compelled to set downe thes places againe a litell after Where yt beinge alleged for the election which is here alledged for the examination receiueth the same answere off the S. which this doothe Vnto my reason in the second Diuision that if an
that they bringe tyranny vnto the churche vvhiche vvithovvte the coÌ„sent of the multitude at their one pleasure call any vnto a publike function in the churche yt is moste manifeste that maister Beza holdethe this for an other substantiall poincte off a lawfull Ecclesiasticall electioÌ„ in a church established that yt be made with the peoples coÌ„sente So that yt appearethe that the election made by the Bishope alone receiueth off Maister Beza twoo deadly woundes as yt were in the harte and in the heade one for that it is not as well done by the authorite off the Eldershipe as by the bishoppe or pastor an other bicause yt is not done by the consente off the churche Nowe what doe wee require in the election off Ecclesiasticall officers which Maister Beza dothe not wee require that yt be not permitted to one he detestethe it as tyrannie we saie that yt oughte to be done by the elder shipe and by consente at the leste off the people he saithe the same What are the thinges then vsed in the Apostels elections that M. Beza saithe may be altered and wheroff there is no certeine rule prescribed whiche the churche is allwaies bounde to followe forsouthe thes thinges as may be easely gathered that where sometimes the people vppon particular occasions did first chuse and the approbation off the gouernours did followe other some times and for the moste parte the gouernours wente before and directed the iudgementes off the people that in this circunstance the churche shoulde be at her libertie to order and vse whiche off theis waies she shoulde thinke moste fâ—tte hauinge regarde to the times and other circumstaÌ„ces whiche mighte moue to take ether the one or the other Againe where the GreciaÌ„s vsed in their elections the cerimonie off holdinge vpp the hande to testifie their liking off him that was chosen other as the Romains goinge from one syde vnto an other Whereoff cam pedibus ire in sententiam others by silence did approue that whiche was propounded that in thes and suche lyke the churche mighte vse that ceremonie whiche is bothe receiued in that place and leste subiecte to slaunderous speache And that whiche the Answ hathe browghte here dothe especially belonge vnto this and is geuen off M. Beza where he shewethe that the manner off the Asians was to testifie there consente by liftinge vp of handes But off what thinges so euer in the election that rule is giuen Yt can by no means take awaye the election from the Eldershipe off euery churche nor the peoples consente to put all in the Bishopes hande Seinge that as hathe bene shewed he makethe these twoe substantiall poinctes off a lawfull ecclesiasticall election And if the Answ will accorde vs those wee shall soone agree for the reste Vppon all this matter I leaue to the reader to esteme howe ether vncircunspectly or vnfaithfully M. S. hath not borowed but taken awaye whether Maister Beza wil or no his senteÌ„ces to ouerthrowe that whiche he so often times and in so vehement wordes so plainly dothe establishe Nowe for your questions yowe praie me to answere althowghe they come so often that yow maye aptelier be called the Questioner then the Ansvverer and that I neede not by any order off disputation be driuen to speake to suche flying demaundes yet I am contente to let yow vse this aduantage off venting them after this sorte which yow can not put in any forme off argument and whiche beinge a litle streighte girte shrinke a waie or euer they come to be examined But I muste praie yow also that where yowr questions be no weightier yow will be contente that I answer them as shortly as yow propownde them Albeit I haue in effecte answered them already in this section I saie therfore that where the Apostles in the firste off the Actes good before the reste off the churche and directe them that is the moste conuenient waie for ordenary elections as that whiche was bothe moste vsed in the Apostolicall elections and whiche is borne vp by apparante reason whiche is that they shoulde shewe the waie to others which are likeste to knowe it best And wheras the people present firste and then the Apostels approue after for as muche as that roose of a particular occasion whiche was for that the Apostels dealing was somewhat suspected as not altogether indifferent but to muche bending to the poore off theire one nation yf the lyke case shoulde fall the like remedy may be vsed beside that that election off the Deacons might be more safely committed vnto the people then that off the pastors the people being more able to iudge off their abilitie in disposing off the mony then off the knowledge required for the preaching off the word The casting off the lottes for so muche as yt was to this ende that the election off an Apostle shoulde be immediatly from God and not by any mans voice that consideratioÌ„ ceassing the lot also in ecclesiasticall elections howesoeuer yt semeth otherwise to some owghte to die In the sixt off the Actes the imposition of handes being vsed in all elections by the churche and hauig a profitable aduertisement that he whiche is ordeined is sett a parte from the rest for the seruice off the churche and that from thence forthe he muste not serue him selffe and his but the churche and conteining also an assurance off the lordes hande and helpe alwaies readie in assisting of him muste needes be holden still for ordenary to be vsed in all elections The praier be fore the lot in the 1. of the Actes being expressedly vsed in all elections And being nowe by so muche more necessary then it was then as the habilitie is lesse nowe in the chusers then yt was then muste needes be thoughte a paterne to frame owre elections by And where yow saie ther was no suche thinge as praier in the 〈◊〉 off the Actes yt is a token yow haue litle truthe in yow whiche will denie that whiche is expressed manifestly in the texte for although S. Luke doeth not declare what were the wordes they vsed yet there being praier made for them there was suche a thinge That in the 1. Act. twoo were presented for one office that was that waie mighte be made to the deuine election by lotte that one onely was taken was becawse there was but one place voide That in the sixte of the acres 7. were presented was becawse the church was thowght to haue neede off so manie for the prouysion off their poore that all were ordeined was for that the Apostels liked well off them all Be there yet any more behinde I loked when yow shoulde saye that in the firste off the actes there was a bowte sixe score in the sixte almoste six thowsande there but eleuen Apostles here twelue there speaking withe one tonge here with many For the matters in controuersy that is to saie whether the peoples consente is to be had c.
willeth that he should not receyue an accusacioÌ„ against an elder but vpoÌ„ two or there witnesses For wherein ciuill causes euen off bloude the iudge may proceede vnto the sentence off condemnation vppon two or thre witnesses S. Paul vvill not haue Tymothie not so muche as to receyue an accusation against an elder vvithowt so many In ciuill causes a man may be dryuen to his purgation of bloude and to his answere vpon the accusation off one althowghe he can not be so condemned vvithowte his owne confession or other triall that falleth owt after the accusation commenced but the elder shall not be driuen to answere vppon one mans Testimonie There remaineth to answere that vvhich is alledged off Paules receiuynge into the companie off the Apostles by Testymonie of one which if I should answere as M. D. dothe I would aske him how he proueth that vvhich he saith ys manifest for yt ys not expressed there that they receiued him vppon Barnabas reporte If I had said so he would haue charged me with arrogancie thâ—â— I dare set downe that which the holie goste hath not reueled For it is said he was receiued but that he was owt off hand receiued or at Barnabas report it is not expressed And if I would walke his way I could answere that it might be that they fyrst enquired off the trewth off those thinges which Barnabas testified before they receyued hym But I leaue this answere to those which thinke there ys no light in the worlde to discouer suche follies and thinke that S. Lukes meaning was to shew that he was receiued vpon Barnabas witnesse For answere therfore I saye fyrst that he vseth weight and vveight measure and measure which being abhominable before God in biyng and selling suche base thinges yt ys seuen folde more in this holie traffyke off the glorious word off god For when we gyue M. D. for profe off triall in the ministers election that vvhich vvas vsed in the Deacons which ys like and comprehended vnder one heade he laieth in so heauie a vveight wherby he would make vs beliue that the prose ys to light saynge that it is of the election of deacons and maketh nothinge for vs. Now vvhen he deliuereth vs a profe that an election may passe by one witnes he putteth in a lighter weight for he bringeth in an example off S. Paul one not then to be chosen but alreadie chosen Which came not to receiue any authoritie wherby he might be enhabled to doo that afterward which he could not doo before but to conferre of that which he had done before Which came not to submit him selfe to any triall but which had as good right to trie as to be tried to enquyre as to be enquyred vpon And that I take aâ— aduantage off this that it vvil be hard at any tyme to find a witnesse so withowt all exception as Barnabas which knew Saint Paul so well off whom he vvitnessed and was knowen so vvell vnto the Apostels to vvhom he coÌ„mended him I think there iâ— no glew so stronge as can ioyne thes togither A man vvhich is dowbted off may be receiued to talke and conferre vvith an other at testymonie of one therfore he maye be receiued to the mynisterie of the lyke Testymonie Againe three Apostles may receyue one to there conference vpon one mannes vvitnesse therfore one bishopp may receyue one to teache others vppon a syngle vvitnesse Last off all vvhich is most absurd three Apostles may at the vvitnesse off one man receyue one that is dowbted off for a disciple or one off the church therfore one Bishop may likewise receiue one dowbted of to be a mynister of the church for it is cleere by S. Luke vvhich saith that S. Paul first assaied to ioyne him selfe vnto the church that their consultation vvas not vvhether they should receyue him as an Apostle but they feared that he vvas a vvolfe and vvent aboute vnder the colour off professing the Religion of Christ to betray the whole churche off Ierusalem So that yf they had bene persuaded off him as off a Christian they vvould haue admitted him into the church withowt the Testymonie of Barnabas Touching the place of the kinges 1. 12. 3â— The holie Goste doth there laye to Ierobohams charge bothe that he made them off the basest off the people vvhich vvas a great prophanation of the Mynisterie and that he toke them not owt off the tribe off Leuie vvhich vvas an other fault For if he had taken off the wisest and honestest families of other tribes he would not haue said that he toke theÌ„ of the basest of the people And therfore that place vvas fitly alledged in that sense vvhich I set downe and yow that can see no other cause why yt should be quoted vnlesse yt were to proue that the ministerie should be tied to one degree or calling doo your selffe more iniurie then a modest aduersarie would For the light off the place is suche that it will suffer no man to be ignoraÌ„t which hath but halffe an eye to see And yet yow blushe not to require in your next section an other answere vnto it I could haue repeated my answere as yow haue there twise hard togither obiected the same thing but if I be not able to intertaine my reader with that varietie vvhich I vvould yet vvould I be lothe to deceiue him and make him beleue that mutton rosted and rosted mutton be two seuerall dishes For let the reader iudge whether ther be any other difference betwene that vvhich yow confesse my answere vnto and that first section in the page follovvinge vvherunto yow require answere and vvith those colewortes twise sodden yow see I vvas content to let yow goo as I haue done vvithe a numbre off other your faultes To the rest I answer not What is the necessitie off Iudicialls I haue declared Touchinge the not entrie off the incircumcised in harte and fleshe into the sanctuarie of the lord vvhich the Ans alledgeth to proue that the law touching the reiectinge off Idolatrous priestes is abolished change the sanctuarie into church vvhich it be tokeneth and incircumcision into the want off baptisme vvhich vvas the same vnder the law vvhich this is vnder the gospell and then it is the morall and euerlastinge law off God that none vvhich is heathenish in minde and vvithall professeth the same by the not receiuinge off the holie Sacrament off baptisme should be admitted to the church off god And if he saie that it is not perpetuall for that incircumcision of the fleshe is now no fault he owght to vnderstand that the estate off the church in the gospell is shadowed owt by those thinges vvhich vvere vsed vnder the law As vvhen it is said there shal be an aulter built vp vnto the lord in the middest off Aegypte that their shal be no Canamite in all the mountaine off God. And therfore as the remouinge off aulters owt off the church
vvhich then vvere in vse and receiuing in one off the nation off Canaan into the church vvhich vvas then vnlawfull derogateth nothing from the stablenes of these lawes so the admittinge off one vvhich is incircuncised in fleshe doth nothinge diminishe the vnchaungeablenes off that law vvhich the Prophete there mentioneth I am well content therfore that these two be matched and that they die and liue togither The other place of entringe in clothed withe linnen compared withe this hath no coulour off argument For it dothe not folowe that because the ceremoniall law is abrogated therfore the iudiciall is also Are these your circūstances that declare the meaning off the place let it be admitted that bohte these lawes the one which goeth before the other which followeth after are abrogated doth it followe therefore that this is also of reiecting idolatrous preistes From the ministerie That vvhich is alleadged by the admonition is the 10. verse of 44. chapter and althowghe one of the places alledged by yow be the verse next going before yet the second is the seuenth verse after the place of the admonition Now if it be sound reason which yow alledge all those lawes in the Testament which are so placed that they haue either a ceremoniall oriudiciall law next going before them and another following within the compasse off 7. verses are either quite abrogated or els not perpetuall Which if it be trew fare well Moses fare well the Prophetes fare well the morall lawes off God they may all depart with the D. good leaue nay for that they wil not serue him he thrusteth them owt Before he picked them here and there but this is an engine to ouerthrowe them all at once For I appeale to all your knowledges vvhich haue euerreade the law if there be any one off the perpetuall lawes off God which may not be found in some place off the law and Prophetes so placed as this is and against the which this exceptiō which the D. doth so bouldly auouche may not be made I could I am well assured runne throwgh all the cōmaundementes and by this reason hurle them euerie one owt of the church yf yt were not follie to labour in confutinge of suche phrēsies as these are ād the thing also were not so plaine as none of any reading in the oulde Testamēt can be ignorāte so that his pen̄e is a pēknife to cut a sonder al the scriptures Touchinge the interpretation off the wordes of the Apostle that the ministers being tied should execute their functions as longe as they continue vnblameable I toke the sense vvhich was fyt for my cause and neither against the scope off the Apostle nor any grammer construction Yow saye the greke is if in triall they be found blamelesse Because yow tie me so fast vnto the nombre of wordes where haue yow this translation or in the greeke wordes yow alledge what haue yow to beare thes wordes in triall or shew me whie I may not as we ll resolue the participle into the coniunctine mode by the coniunction so longe as as by the coniunction if as longe as I doo it neither against the trewth nor against the purpose off the Apostle I graunt that sense trew but why may not this also be ioyned seing bothe the wordes and scope off the Apostle will beare bothe yow should therfore haue shewed that these wordes will not beare this sense and yf yow shew me that yet can yow not put me from houlde of that place For as muche as yt is most iustlie concluded that if the ministers must be blamelesse before they come to the ministerie ▪ they owght muche more so to be in the execution off it considering that falles in execution off the ministerie are more daungerous to the church then those before Althowgh triall be made before admission and off thinges past yet is it done in respecte off the ministerie that shall followe Therfore yt agreeth well vvith the triall That S. Paul should giue vvarninge that they should no longer be suffred to Minister then they remaine suche as by triall they vvere supposed to be And where yow saye that it is spoken in that place off deacons yt ys muche more off Bishops And yff a Deacon fallinge awaie from the trewth owght to be put from the charge or honor vvhich he had in the church muche more a bishop But I nothing dowbt but that the Apostel referred this sentence vnto bothe a bishop and deacon For hauing before spoken off them bothe aparte he dothe here ioyne them together in that vvhich is com̄on to them ye◠belōging rather to the bishop then to the deacon And it is as muche as yff the Apostle should saie I haue set before thine eies vvhat be the qualities bothe off the bishopp and deacon looke now none be permitted to come vnto these offices vvhich haue not bene tried before And that this is soo it may appeare for that the nexte verse which is thouching the qualities off wiues is not onely a description what wiues the deacons but what wiues also the Bishops should haue Vnlesse we will saie that S. Paul trauailed in describing off the deacons wiues and lefte the bishopps wiues vntouched which how yt soundeth in other mens eares I can not tell in mine it is absurde Againe if the 10. and 11. verses had bene to be vnderstanded off the Deacons trial Paule and their wiues onlie S. Paule would not haue begonne his 12. verse as he did by a repetion of the name off Deacons For yt had bene enoughe to haue said let them be the husbandes of one wife now when he saith let the deacons c. he declareth that he had discontinued his proper treatise of deacons which he resumeth againe by that maner off expressinge the name off a deacon The sense which I haue alledged soundeth no whit that way that the vertue off the word c. should depend off the good life off the minister What likelihood is there betweene these a minister vvhich hathe fallen into idolatrie ovvght not to be receiued althovvghe he repent and be neuer so holie and this that yow surmise off me that the vertue off the word c. dependeth vppon the holines off the minister Was the spirite off God Anabaptisticall whiche ordeined this first did he therfore forbidd the Leuites approche vnto the table off the Lord be cause he woulde teache men that the vertue off the Sacramentes depended off the holines off the ministers did the churches which vsed and established this order the fathers which taught it therby establishe Anabaptistrie I did not take vppon me to translate the place neither doo I vse for euerie place vvhich I alledge to goo to the translations I toke as I said that which was for my purpose and whiche I thowght warranted bothe by the wordes and intent of the Apostle And yf I shoulde consulte and conferre all translations could yow helpe me to a greeke text that doth translate
and by the expresse mouthe off God I see not what man coulde put him owte off yt withowte the same authoritie whiche put him in Laste off all it is verie probable that vvhere yt is saide in an other place that Moses stood vp and praied for Aaron then Moses receiued answere what shoulde be doone withe Aaron towchinge his continuance in the ministerie Where yowr glosse in the ende supposeth contrarietie seinge yt settethe downe none I haue not to answere yt may be the A. lawghed vvhen he vvrote that vvherby he requireth sincere dealing in the scriptures For if this be sitting in his mouthe vvhich corrupteth in a manner all he toucheth vvhy should not also a light housewiffe talke of the chastitie off a graue matrone The nexte diuis belonging vnto the 6. Tract off vnpreaching ministers shall there God vvilling be answered Off election off Ministers vn voices or other consente off the people Chap. 4. pag. 155. IF Chrysostome had had anie thinge to saie towching the election off Deacons he shoulde haue spokē vvhen tyme was and when that place was handled Yet for answere the reader maye vnderstand that Chrysost in that place makethe comparison betwen the election in the firste off the Actes and this and sheweth howe the Apostels did otherwise there then here For there they chose two vvhiche they set vpp before the churche So that vvhen Chrysost saithe the Apostels myght haue chosen the deacons yt may be he meaneth they might haue chosen them as they did the two Mathias and Barsabas In whiche choise I haue shewed the consente off the people was required Yff there were but this place whiche the D. citeth I woulde stande vpon this answer but considering that Chrys in another place affirmeth that Peter might haue chosen him selfe which I would not kepe from the knowledge off the reader I will not denie but that Chrysost might haue heere the meaning the D. supposeth Wherto as I can by no meanes agree vpon the reasons both before and after alledged so the D. is not helped For when Chryso commendeth Peter that he did all thinges by the aduise off the churche nothing off his ovvne autoritie nothing vvith dominion When he addeth also that the same was to auoide contention and that nether he nor the reste off the Apostles should be thovvght to chuse off fauour he declareth sufficiently that there is no bishop of that ether authoritie or holines off life vvhich in making the election without consente of the church dooth not bothe laie him selfe and his ministery open to suspiciō of parcialitle and giue occasion off pernicious debates in the churche He shoulde also vnderstande that this proportion is vneuen and that if yt were granted whiche he desyrethe yet he is not where he woulde be For iff it were lawfull for the Apostels indued with extraordinarie giftes off discretion off spirites to chuse yt foloweth not therfore that one Bishopp may doo so And because yt was lawfull for the 12. Apostels to chuse them withe whome they were dailie conuersante therfore it is lawfull for one bishoppe to chuse those whiche he neuer see nor knewe before Before I goo any further yt is to be obserued that althowghe the Ans holde owte in the defense off this cawse off election by the Bishope certeine wordes of learned mē racked from their meaninge and contrarie to the continual practise off the authors yet the trwthe is that as this assertion is the Papistes and Papistes againste the Protestantes so all his principall bothe argumentes and solutions haue bene worde for worde ministred vnto him owte off the bokes off the ranckeste enemyes off the trwthe Yff the reader will see this question diducted at large betwene the catholikes and the papistes let hym reade Hosius and Phigius in thes bokes which I haue noted I will onely note the places whēce the Ans argumētes are fetched with his startinge holes vvherwithe he vvoulde abuse the worlde And firste off all Marsilius a Catholike whome the lorde had stirred vpp to mainteine the trwthe off the Gospell Aboute the time off Pope Iohn the 12. disputinge againste the sole election off the bishope vsethe this reason whiche wee haue heere in hande namelie that forasmuche as the churche chose here Deacons as it appearethe in the Actes therfore yt owghte muche more chuse her mynisters This reason Phigius as the D derideth no more hable to answer yt then he The manifeste wordes off the texte are that Paule and Barnabas ordeined elders by voces neither is there any learned and godlie man browghte or as Iam perswaded can be browghte that euer denied that the churches were in election off their ministers ioyned with Paul and Barn. That Zuingl saithe some were called to the ministerie off the worde by the Apostels onely what is yt to proue that Paule and Barnabas did here in this place ordeine myinisters withowte the voices off the churche yt is well therfore M Zuing. hath expressed whiche the D. hathe vnfaithfully holden backe who translatinge whole pages to no purpose coulde not here aforde vs one poore sentence off the lengthe off two lines The other halfe off the sentence is this As saithe he vvhen by the decree off the Apostels Peter and Iohn vvere sente vnto Samaria Marcke I beseche yow what manner of election this was The Apostels chose two but suche as were approued mynisters before what is this to proue that the byshope maie chuse those whiche were neuer approued or chosen vnto the ministrie The Apostels chose them to goe an embassage whiche shoulde be ended in a fewe daies and what is that to proue that a bishoppe maie chuse to a perpetuall function The Apostels did yt withowte the consente off that churche vnto whiche that matter did not belonge what is that to proue that the bishope maie chuse a minister withowte the consente off that churche whiche that election dothe concerne for that electiō belonged not vnto the churche of Ierusalem where they were if yt had there is no doubte but the Apostels woulde not haue doon yt withowte the cōsente therof I leue here to speake of the difference of bishop and Apostel off twelue and one whiche beinge obserued in the former section needeth no rehersall And as this maketh nothinge for the election off the bishope so yt maketh against that for the whiche this place is browghte For iff maister Zuing. had bene off that iudgemente that Paule and Barnabas did by them selues chuse withowte the churche he woulde likely haue browghte that example cōsideringe that this can not be properly called any election to the Mynistrie whiche was off those which were ministers before But that yow may yet better knowe the D. vnfaithfull dealinge ioined with shameles bouldnes off alledging authoritice I will set downe Maister Zwinglius iudgemente in this cause which he vttereth in diuers places off that booke owte off whiche the D. hathe alledged this but most manifestly within les
that he hath taught that Sainct Paule commaundeth that they and in them all bishoppes shoulde onely chuse Wherby are condemned all election by the church as those which haue intruded vppon the bishoppes possession Where he saith that the Adm. dothe coulorably affirme by thes wordes thautoritie is gyuen to the bishopp alone c. that the right off orderinge ministers doth at no hand apperteine vnto the bishopp I would knowe what word there is heere where this coulor is to bee seene aÌ„d what light he is able to giue vs to make yt appeare The other sentence wherwith he woulde proue yt followeth after nether was he come vnto yt Yf he did therfore confute that it is as straunge as iff a man shoulde shutte off and spende his arrowes or euer he come within the reach off his enemie And I thinke there is no example off suche confutation onles he had coupled that place with this and comparinge them together sett vpon them both at ones beside that it is Absurde that where the Adm. heere spake off the election he answereth off admission Here cometh to be considered the A. dealinge in the end off the booke where charged with vnfaithfullnes for that as in this place he would haue in synuated that the Adm. would haue the people chuse onely to proue hym selfe giltles he alledgeth a place of the Adm. wherin yt is said Then the election vvas made by commen consent off the vvhole church To this answer I repâ—lied that it was his ouersight that he tooke the people which is but a parte of the church to be al one with the church which is the whole coÌ„teininge as well gouernours of the church as the people in which replie the D. crieth owte off manifest falsification Why so forsooth because I lefte owte this worde whole that is to saie because I spared hym and kepte backe a peece of his folie and that with disaduantage off that which I pretended to proue For the word church simply set downe doth comprehended as well the gouernours as the people howe much more doth it comprehend them when this worde whole is added And if it were falsely concluded off him against the Adm. that they would haue the ministers to be called allowed and placed off the people because they saide that the election was made by commen consent off the church how much more is yt falsely concluded of thes wordes off the Adm. the election vvas made by consente off the vvhole church Thus appeareth that the D. together with his diuinitie seemeth to haue loste his commen sense yt is time therfore to carie him owte off the schole to some other place iff peraduenture by some sharper discipline he might gather vpp him selfe againe In the same place also vpoÌ„ that I shewed that in proper speach the church and people differed hauing there declared that difference to be in that the church is the whole and the people a parte theroff â–ª this complainer off falsificatioÌ„ saithe that I seeme to seperate the people from the election of the ministers for that I will not haue the worde church in the Adm. comprehend the people which is manifestly againste that I set downe For I precisely reprehended hym for that vppon the worde church vsed off the Admon he woulde haue mainteined his false insinuation againste them that the election should perteine to the people onely consideringe that the word church cited off him was the vvhole and the people one parte and necessarily comprehended vnder it This is not onely falsifyinge but flat facynge Nowe to retourne backe I aske what he needed twife in this diuision in so many and greuous wordes complaine off corrupte dealinge seinge him selfe flatly affirmeth asmuch as I saie of him and otherwise caÌ„ not mainteine his cause The truth is that he absteined then from the wordes electinge and onely bycause he sawe he had nothinge to mainteine them which nowe by my replie he was driuen to put downe or els to forsake his cawse Wherin as he dissenteth from the trwth so he is driuen to haue a newe combat with him selfe in that he heere maketh yt indifferent and at the discretion of the church in tyme of persequution to make elections ether by one or by the multitude which is contrary to that he hath before in thes wordes Lastly in time of persequution when they haue no magistrate they be all equall nether is one bound to obey another by any ciuill lawe none hath cheiff and especiall care ouer the reste as magistrate to compell wherfore yt can not be otherwise then but that such offices should be chosen by common consente Where he alledgeth Zuing. and Bull. owt of place and contrary to the title of his chap. to proue the callinge of certeine by one Apostle because they be Euangelistes vvhich wee haue no vse off and for that I haue shewed that they both are clearly of this Iudgement that the minister owght to be chosen with consent off the church I will not much busie my selfe with this matter But althowgh the Apostles did send thes Euangelistes off their Embassages to knowe howe the churches did and such lyke thinges as required no tariance nor execution off any set ministrie in the churches wherunto they where sent yet that they euer set them to rule any congregation by their priuate autoritie is not to be estemed wheroff this is an apparant reason that Timothe was not set ouer the church off Ephesus by Saint Paule onely seinge that Paule confesseth that he receiued imposition off handes by the eldership Thother also here mentioned beinge Euangelistes it is like the order vsed in one was in thother Nether doo the wordes I lefte the at Creta proue it for he doth not saie that he ordeined him and if he had yet it muste be vnderstanded that he did ordeine him as he had doone in other churches with consente off the church And that this is not my iudgement yt maie appeare by that I haue alledged owt off Caluine and Musculus in the former booke aÌ„d Bez. in this nether could Bull. be thought to haue here such meaniÌ„g as the D. giueth him that the Apostles alone should sett ouer the churches ministers as appeareth by that I haue alledged So that onles he will make Bullinger contrary vnto him selffe thes wordes that Paule and Peter called certeine can not be vnderstanded off placinge them ouer any congregation no further then being cheife in that action they directed the iudgemeÌ„t of the churches there remaineth zuinglius which I meruaile the D. will charge me with seinge he himselffe will not stande to him in the place which he hath alledged For that which he hath lefte owt off Mathias chosen by the vvhole church is directly againste that which he hath in diuers places before affirmed After many vaine wordes againste the replie vnto the places off Timothe as that it is against thauthoritie off learned writers against the whole course off
is a popishe shifte as I haue shewed sufficiently before confuted yt hath no grounde in the vvorde testimony wherout he woulde pull yt For by a fygure off metonymy he noteth the peoples voice because by giuinge it they gaue also testimony what they the wght off him Where it is to be noted that the D. giueth no more to the churche off God then S. Paul giueth to straungers froÌ„ yt of whom he willeth that the bishop shall haue a good report There followeth the open violence doone vnto August wordes Where first let the reader obserue againe that this wresting of the example of Eradius against the election of the church was taken from Pighius as appeareth manifestly But for answer vnto Pigbius and the D. it muste be vnderstanded how for that election of Eradius to be bishop after August decease there were assembled two bishopes besides August 6. Elders beside Eradius with the reste of the clergie and people For what purpose all thes if it were in Augustines powre to choose onelie After yt appeareth that Augustine did call the people to haue there consente because he had experience off trouble and discontentement of the people off Millen for that Seuerus the bishop there did appoincte his successor before his death withowte speakinge any thinge theroff vnto them vvhich could not be auoided off Augustine if he mente to chuse any againste the will off the people For yt had bene better for him to haue appoincted one as Seuer us did vvithowte communicatinge the matter vnto them then in communicatinge yt to take one againste their willes Againe where the D. vppon those wordes I vvill haue Eradius my successor woulde haue that Augustine onely had the election off him he is coÌ„futed by and by after with his owne wordes I saie that I vvill haue him because I knovve that yovv vvill haue him And after he vvilleth that the publike notories shoulde as vvell note their voices as his vvill in this matter that saith he your consentes fall not to the grounde or become voide Wherunto also pertaine the subscriptions of them which folowed Which althowgh the D. saith are referred onely vnto the peticion off Augustine to be discharged off the hearinge off ciuill matters yet the wordes sounde otherwise For when he required their subscription to those Actes yt is cleare that he muste be vnderstanded to haue spoken off both those matters otherwise he woulde haue required subscription to that Acte and not vnto the Actes And where in the ende for an other reason he addeth Augustine was appointed bishope when Valerius bishope off Hippo was a liue I see not howe it maketh for him one word For if he think that Valerius off his Authoritie did it he is vtterly deceiued seing Possidonius writeth that Valerius spake vnto the people to prouide and to ordeine an elder off the cytie and sheweth how he was ordeined by the consente off all the people Which thinge yff it were not more lighter then the none daies off this Epistle off August yet yt mighte appeare by other as where he declareth that Pinianns was ordeined off the people elder off the church againste his will. moe might be alleadged but thes shall suffyse Sauinge that I muste put Maister D. in remembrance howe he merueilously forgetteth him selfe For grauntinge me before that the councell off Carthage wherat Augustine was presente decreed that the election shoulde be made by the commen consente off the people clerkes and bishopes in the same prouince he must heere needes confesse that ether Augustine did there ioine together in election with the church and the clergie as they terme them or that he brake the order off the Councell which could not be vvithowt his fault although the election off the church had bene as the D. esteemeth yt but a thing indifferent And the truth is yt appeareth that August had in that election an expresse regard vnto the decree off the councell which caused him beside the eldership off the church and people to send for two other bishops to be assistants Wherupon the reader may see how there is no light off wordes so cleare which Phighius and the Ans misled will not giue thâ—nser to darcken Besides that Ambrose calleth yt a diuine election which is made by the church which he could not onles yt were by the institution off God the whole discourse off the Epistle teacheth that the election off the people is there accounted off as necessary For when the church off Vercella did linger the time in not chusing a bishop vvhen it vvas also infected vvith Heretickes vvhy did not Amb. at least by vvay off Lapse take the election vnto him self but vvriteth vnto them reprehending them that they did not aske for a bishop as other churches were vvont to doo Gregor Nazienz speaking there off diuers elections vvherin still the people bore one part and that withowt controlement speaketh more for that election in that one place then the D. hath hitherto or in the residue of his treatise is able to shew And where he might seeme to haue somewhat nipped at it in shewing how at certeine elections some off the people were contentious he healeth that euen in the next sentence to this saying that at that time it was to be feared lest he ovvght to iudge the popular regiment better ordered then their ovvne and after maketh mention off the corruption off those which were fellow elders vvith his father but obserue I pray yow againe the D. faith fulnes which expouÌ„deth the worde churches the clergy Where learned he thus to expound Let it be that as in the scripture sometime so in the auncient fathers the eldership off a church is called by the name off church where can he euer shew that the eldership or as he termeth it the clergy of one onely church vvherof Greg. speaketh is called by the name off churches In steed therfore that he should haue translated both the richer and they off great authority in the church vvere cleane from that euill he hath translated the churches that is to say the clergy c taking the nominatiue plurall for the genitiue syngular Which although in the latin toung if one take not heed vnto the sense may deceiue yet vvhen the D. had the Greeke which hath off the church before him as it seemeth by cyting the greeke in the same place by and by after ether he vnderstood it not or willingly peruerted the meaning So I leaue to the reader whether I haue reasoned to the pourpose or no and whether yow besides wordes haue any thing at all As in certeine other places so in this in steed off that I should haue taken the quotacion which came after I taking the quotacion in my paper booke which went before was deceiued and for the 6. and 7. of Socrates set downe the 6. and 7. of Eusebius This verely is the error which the D. maketh so
to Lazarus dead in his graue come forth and to the Palseie man ryse and vvalke And his breathing beinge the Sacrament off those wordes receiue the holy goste they muste off necessitie be referred to the same ende So that if our Sauiour woulde declare his deuinity by one it was his minde to doo the same by the other And if because he instituted a minister by those wordes they are to be vsed then the breathing also must lykwise considering that he vsed that for the confirmacion off the wordes Where he saith they conteine a perpetuall promise off the presence off the spirite with those which Christe shall call euen so doth the commaundinge off the sea c. to be quiet conteine a perpetuall promise that the winde and sea shoulde ryse and fall for the profite off those vvhich be the Lordes But as there is no promise that that shall be in abating their rage so foundainly as our Sauiour Christe did so there is no worde that the Lorde will giue his spirite by pronouncing off this sentence The bishop saithe he hath no meaninge to commaunde Nether had the Papistes but why he shoulde speake one thing and meane another he can shewe no reason therfore our faulte beinge in this poincte the same vvith the Papistes hath the same Censure off writers inueighing againste this vnaduised imitacion That which is saide that if any patron off calling is to be followed our sauiour Christes owghte is a grosse begging of that in controuersie and then apparantly refuted in that our Sauiour Christe gaue newe names in his ordination sente forth two by two commaunded they should cary no weapon c. which can haue no place in our ordinacions Where I alledged that the reason was not one in thes wordes and in the wordes off the supper in that the minister doth not commaund that the bread be the body but saith yt is he answereth nothing Tract 3. and 4. according to the D. That all ordinarie Ministeries are annexed to a certein place THe A. in heaping vp certein differences betwene the office off an Apostle and Pastor answereth nothing to the matter Yff this be true which is set downe that they be like in this that a certein church is to a pastor or a minister vvhich the twelfth place was then amongest the Apostels the reason off the Adm. is mainteined For then as it was not lawfull for them to haue proceeded vnto a newe election if Iudas had not fallen from his ministerie so it is not lawfull to ordeine Pastors so longe as the place is full likewise if the Apostels would not vndertake any election but where they had the light and guide off the worde off God to shewe them the way not onely what manner a one but when he should be chosen muche lesse is it lawefull for the Bishoppes The first off thes being so cleare as the A. durst not plainly denie he doth notwithstanding pushe at priuely saying that Paul and Barnabas were added aboue the nombre off twelue But he should haue knowen that they were added by the Lorde and not by the church where he should haue shewed that the Apostels c. chose the thirtenth Apostle And we denie not but the Lorde may nowe if yt seme good vnto him choose some Minister which hath no certein place That which he obiecteth off Epaphroditus c. to be Apostels suche as we speake off is an absurd begging off that which is in question Where against the second point he saith that there is no suche thing in the Election off the Pastors as that in their election the scripture should be fulfilled c. allthoughe there be not so particular a worde as off chusinge one into Iudas place yet there is a certein rule in obedience whereoff the scripture is daily fulfylled And so falleth also his other exception which supposeth that off one example we make a generall rule Considering that we craue no further helpe off that example then the same was compassed by the worde off god The A. grauntinge the distinction off ordinarie and extraordinarie Ministeries and yet denying that it can be warranted by the scriptures poursueth his former traine off shrincking the scriptures Seinge yt followeth thereuppon that some truthe in Diuinitie cannot be warranted by the worde off god The question moued off the Elders is out off place the answer whereunto shal be differred vnto the proper treatise The absurd speaches which he hath here and in the next Diuision off Apostels Euangelistes and Prophetes come to be examined in the answer to his third chap. Heere first he trifleth with his reader whilest he supposeth that I ground the function off Elders vpon the 4. off the Ephes and that Iesteme that place a perfect rule of Ecclesiasticall functions when as not onely I haue no syllable sounding that way but haue declared the contrarie in that by a long discourse in the question off the Archebishop I haue shewed that that place is onely of the Ministeries occupied in the worde That which he speaketh heere off ouerseing shepherdes and watchmen belongeth to the 6. Diuision where yt is repeated That off one shepherd hauing many flockes belongeth to the question off hauing many benefices Yt remaineth to mainteine that part off the Diuision which setteth downe the Doctor off the church as a seuerall member from a Pastor Which may appeare by that the Apostle placeth them both to the Romanes and Ephes as diuers beside that the giftes differing whereby those functions are executed and there being apt to teache and therfore meet for the office off a Doctor which haue no grace in exhortacion or mouing the affections off the hearers and therefore not so fit to be Pastors yt must followe that the functions be diuers And where the Ans opposeth vnto vs the iudgement off one or twoo it is easye to shewe not onely moe authorities off priuate men but the vse off the Elder churches euen from the Apostels time Epecially in Alexandria where the distinction off the Bishop and Doctor off the church is so often obserued by the ecclesiasticall story also the coustome continued in cathedrall churches as they are called wherefrom time to time beside the Bishop hathe bene a reader And if thes were not distinguished thē must it needes follow which in an other place the A. denieth that there were ordinarily two Bishops in one church considering that beside the Elders and him which they commonly called the bishopp there was also a Doctor Nether ought it to be any hinderance to this distinction that Saint Paul coupleth the Pastor and Doctor together where as he sundred the rest that goe before by this worde Some For the coniunction dothe not couple them in signification but maketh them onely couples off the liberalitie off Christe towardes his church Especially considering that bothe this coniunction And is oftentimes a note to couple seuerall members off one diuision and the Apostel would rather
Euangelist and Prophet vnto the Pastor or bishop yf I say none of these be sufficient yet the D. hym selfe will help vs which in appointing the giftes off Prophetes and Euangelistes greater then those of the bishop proueth that he here denieth And although he take this libertie off denying thinges which none durst euer call into doubt yet he escapeth not so considering that although he make the bishop to take the wall off the Euangelist yet he can not do yt in the Apostels and Prophetes Therefore the absurditie remaineth still that the bishop being an inferior minister taketh vpon hym to make ministers which are aboue him He saith that the 7. of the Heb. maketh not for me becawse blessing is not there taken for consecration to the ministery yet the reason is all one For as the Apostel proueth that Melchizedech was greater then Abraham because he was the minister of God to pronounce the bessing vpon him in the name and autoritie of the Lord so he that ordeineth being a publike Minister off God to pronounce his assistance to wardes him that is to be admitted owght by the same reason to be greater then he Where I alledged out of Euseb that the Euangelistes did ordein bishops hauing nothing to answer he was content to take the benefit off the printers or writers fault which as casely might come to passe for the figure off 3. had set the figure off 2. where I shew that thes Euangelistes are superfluous yf the pastors and Doctors doo their dutie he asketh what iff there be not for euery church a sufficient Pastor Which being answered in an other place I answer also here that his Euangelistes should helpe to make vp the nomber Where he saith if euery church were prouided off an able Pastor yet for confirmation off the doctrine oftener preaching diuers worcking of God by one rather then an other the Euangelistes might doo good beside that he easely forgetteth the churches charge which being hardly able to mainteine their proper ministery should be ouercharged with those that ride abowt and beside that the Pastor being prouided vnto euery church the ouerplus owght to serue to fournish them off Doctors an other ordinarie mynisterie off the word he must know that able teachers can teach as often as the church can conueniently meet And it can not be denied but they haue the blessing off God promised to their labours before any other Yf there be any such great and vrgent need off confirmation off any point off doctrine the churches hard by may by dutie off godly neighbourhood help one an other in that behalff The place to proue the ceassing off this Mynisterie out off Eus is manifest to all that wil vnderstād For in that speaking of the time about the yeare 162. he saith there vvere yet Euangelists he declareth that there were none in his time and that he saith with repetition there vvere there vvere all see that he wrote that with declaration off sorow that they hauing bene before were not then That which he answereth that they can not now goe from kingdome to kingdome becawse the miraculous gift off tounges is ceased maketh vtterly against him For Euseb putting that amongest other an̄exed to the office off an Euangelist left the reason off the want off that ministerie which he had before bewailed Which being the same now that was then yt followeth that as there was not then so there is not now any such function Thus much for the maintenance off the reasons which were set downe by me against the D. Apostels Prophetes c. it followeth to examin his First the reader may see the hardnes off the D. countenance which hauing diuers reasons alledged out of the scripture asketh notwithstanding for one word out off it which doth but insinuate thes offices to be temporall After he alledgeth Ephes 4. where vpon that it is saide that those with other Ministeries off the word were giuen off God for the gathering together off the sainctes vntill we all come vnto a perfect man he concludeth but vniustly that they are perpetuall ministeries For the offices off Apostelship c. may well haue their worck in the perfection off the church without such continuāce Which he might haue easely knowen if he had considered that which our Sauiour Christ saith that the fruit off their preaching should remaine Therfore although their ministrie were but for a time yet for as much as the fruit thereoff hath and shall haue her worck vnto the worldes end in the perfection off the church off God it might be well saide that they were gyuen for the gathering off the sainctes vntill they cam to a be perfect man Nether doo the wordes off the Apostle import continuance off all these offices For if all thes amongest them and euery one in his turne finish this worck yt is enough nothing falleth from the liberalitie off the Lord nothing from the truth off this word no more then he breaketh promis which vndertaking to furnish an other off all manner of worckmen vntill his howse be finished after foundations layed and patron left vnto carpenters and masons how to proceed in the rest off the building with draweth the master builder for as the lorde abated the nomber of sortes of builders so hathe he deminished the varietie off workes requisite to the building And as the offices off Pastor and Doctor which were not in the beginning off this building are saide to be gyuen to perfecting off it euen so thes functions off Apost c. although they be not in the end may likewise be saide But I merueil that the Answ doth not vnderstand that both this place of the Ephes and that off the Corinthes ◠12. speak of such Apostels Prophetes and Euangelistes as were noted with such markes off immediate calling extraordinary giftes c. as fall not into the Apostels Prophetes c. which he dreameth off If therefore he think that the Lord hath bound hym self by those wordes to continue thes degrees yt followeth that he is bound to furnish them with giftes proper to them For if promising such as S. Paul here meaneth he giue other kindes much inferior vnto them he thereby which all godly eares detest is argued off vntruth His other reason is that Prophetes in the 1. Corint 14. and Prophecie 12. Rom. are put as ordinary Whereunto I answer that the word Prophecie is taken sometimes not for that particular function Saint Paul speaketh off but generally for any publike instruction off the people in the will off god As when it is saied extinguish not the spirit dispise not prophecie That it ys so taken to the Rom. yt ys manifest for that yt ys deuided and altogether consumed into the ministeries off the word So that there being no ordinary minister off the word in the church which it embraceth not yt must follow that it is taken there for no particular function Which thing
generall and proue that no man maie vsurpe that tytle But to cleare that matter in an other place he sheweth that it is to muche to attribute vnto a Kinge the name of the head of the church and that they are blasphemous that gyue hym yt Nowe where he saith here and repeteth p 301. that in respecte off the supreme autoritie which god hath gyuen vnto the magistrate he may be called the head off the church the supreme authoritie ouer the church being onely gyuen vnto Christe yt muste folow that this name onely belongeth to him Where partly in this diuis but more fully pag 301. he saith althowgh in respecte of life and nutriment gyuen and spirituall blessinges powred into the body off the church our Sauiour Christe is onely head yet towching the externall societie and owtward gouernement the magistrate also may be head off the church yt is first to be noted from whom this prouision was browghte hym For as Harding borowed yt off Pighius so the D. pourueiers had it from Harding or frō both For to ouerthrowe this doctrine that Christe alone is head of his church this distinction is browghte that according to the inward influence off grace Christe onely is head but according to the owtward gouernement the being of head is commen with him to others For answer wherunto I referre my self in parte to that I haue written before off the absurde distinction betwene the gouernement off the churche by the mynisterie off men instituted off our Sau. Christ and his spirituall gouernmente For that if there be no head but Christe in respecte of the spiritual gouernemente there is no head but he in respecte of the worde sacramentes and discipline administred by those whom he hath appoincted forasmuch as that is also his spirituall gouernmente And euen in the owtward societie and assemblies off the church where one or two are gathered in his name ether for hearing off the word or for praier or any other church exercise our Sauiour Christe being in the myddeste off them as mediatour muste needes be there as head and if he be there not idle but doinge the office off the head fully yt followeth that euen in the owtwarde societie and meetinges off the church no symple man can be called the head off it Seing that our Sauiour Christe doinge the whole office off the head him selfe alone leaueth nothing to men by doing wheroff they maie obtaine that tytle Wherfore whosoeuer in seeking to profite the churche according to his calling doth any thing to the preseruation off this body he doth yt as an eye an arme an eare or as some other member and not a◠head off it Now to his distinction owt off Andreas who after he confesseth that Christe is onely head as he gouerneth the church with his spirite addeth that for somuche as the church off God being visible is not onely ruled by the word but by sword off the magistrate that there be so many heades off the church as rulers off countries Where firste let it be obserued that he quoteth no place peraduenture leste some ether wordes or circumstance might gyue the answer Then that he enhaunceth his credite whith the tytle off a learned man where for any thing I haue redd and I haue redd his defence off the real presence against Beza yt might well haue bene lefte owte Howbeit both for his corruption in iudgement and otherwise I refer the learned reader to that Vrsinus a learned man hath written against him Wherby he may vnderstand howe this commendation was without discretion onely to serue the present tourne And I beseche yow Sir who is this Vergerius whom Andreas reprehendeth which you haue so nakedly set downe clothing Andrue so gorgiously This is is good reader Petrus Paulus Vergerius with whome whether the other be once to be compared ether for sownd knowledge or innocencie off lyfe I leaue to their iudgemēt which haue redd and knowē them both and withall whether if an argumēt of autoritie be off such weighte as the D. will haue yt he hath by this testimony made a hole in his owne cawse In the distinction yt ys firste to be obserued that as Andrue dissenteth from the truth so he doth from Pighius Harding and the D. for when he opposeth the gouernement by the sword vnto that off the worde making yt off the word a peece off the spirituall gouernement and then saith that there be diuers heades off the church in respecte off gouernement by the sword he gyueth to vnderstand that his Iudgement is that in respecte off the ecclesiasticall mynisterie our Sauiour Christ is onely head Which may yet better appeare in that he saith ther are so many heades as rulers of coūtries and saith not so many heades as bishops off churches And if this be not his minde yt will stand the D. vppon to bringe owt other wordes to declare yt Now Pigh Hard. and the D. vppon the bare word off Athanasius will haue heades in respecte off the ecclesiasticall gouernement they one ouer all churches he one in euery diocese Wherin the reader may see that yf this rottē seede take rooting howsoeuer the Princes honor be pretended the fruiete perteineth also to the bishops In which distinctiō off bishop head off his but not of the whole church albeit the D. woulde gladly seme to slip from the Papistes yet they will not so parte with him For beside that I haue shewed how the godly learned vppon that our Sau. Christ is head cōclude as well against heades of particular churches as against one head off the vniuersall this Iudgement off his is the deuinitie off two Popishe Councels Constance and Basile Where the Bishops those especially before partners in this robberie off our Sauiour Christ with the man off Rome and namely he off Antyoche displeased that the Pope alone should haue all that boutye to make Roume for them selues shut his headship vp in the compas off his owne countrie opening their eyes to so muche trwth as serued their owne tournes But to come to the poinct off Andrues distinction let yt be consydered fyrst that our Sauiour Christ ys in one respecte creator and preseruer of man kinde in another redemer ād vpholdder of his church For he created once ād preserueth daily as God coequal with his Father ād holy spirite but he both redemed once and daily gathereth his church as mediatour of god and man in which respect euen yet in his infynite glory he enioyeth he is an shall be vnder his father and holy goste vntill hauing put downe all rule and power he shall render the kingdome to his Father Secondly yt ys to be considered that as our Sauiour Christe doth thes in dyners respectes so he doth them by diuers means To wyt that as God symply he hath ordeined certein means to serue his prouidence in the perseruation of man kynde so as God and man he hathe ordeined other certein for the
gathering and keping off his church Thes groundes laied yt is to be considered whether the exercise off the sworde by the magistrate come from our Sauiour Christe preseruer off man kinde wherin he is coequal to his father or as mediatour off his church wherin he is inferiour Where forasmuche as our Sauiour Christes kingdome was not of this world and that against horrible disorders in his church punishable by the sworde he did not one extraordinary whipping excepted draw yt and considering that this lawfull ordinance off God is not onely in the churche but withowt yt is manifest that our Sauiour Christ in respecte off his mediatourship towardes vs exerciseth not the cyuill sword For in that he said his kingdome was not off this worlde he made an opposition not vnto the wicked off the worlde as other some times but vnto Cesars autoritie which was the ordinance of God wherto he was falsly charged to haue made claime And in that he drewe not the sword againste opē disorders it argueth that that was without the compas off his vocation otherwise he would neuer haue suffred the glory of God to haue bene troden vnder feet And in that the autoritie off the sword in heathen princes althowgh not a like vsed is the same ordinance off God that in Christian th one proceding off God immediatly and not from our Gauiour Christ as mediatour thother doth likewise But why should wee wrastle further in this poincte with Andrue seing the D. which buildeth of his autoritie in cōfessing that the magistrate is ordeined off God immediatly standeth with vs that he ys not ordeined off our Sauiour Christe in respect that he is mediatour betwene God and vs heruppon followeth that the office off the cyuill magistrate is properly one off those means which serueth the Lordes prouidence in the preseruation off man kind Now yf the cyuill magistrate should be the head off the church he must be an vnder and subordinat head off Christ Consydering that the lorde hath committed the gouernement off the church vnto our Sauiour Christe and that otherwise there should be two heades off yt wheroff one were not vnder another which is absurd But he is not an vnder and subordinate head off Christe consydering that his autoritie cometh from God symply and immediatly euen as our Sauiour Christes and therfore not the head off the church To this disputation perteineth that which the D. els where in synuateth off the Magistrate comprised albeit not expressed in the 12. 1. Corinth vnder the word gouernementes but in an other treatise more plainly in the fyrst place to hale in the Archbishop in the second to thrust out the elders which notwithstanding is easely refuted by the same place for if the cyuill magistrate shoulde be comprehēded vnder that worde off gouernement and be one off the officers off the church there mencioned yt should followe that he should be an vnder officer not onely to the Apostles but also to Prophetes and Doctors For S. Paule putteth thes as the principallest mynisteries in the church as the degres off first second and third declare But I thincke the D. will not make him vnder officer to all thes therfore he is not cōprehended vnder that diuision but is of an other sorte off officers Secondly yt should follow that Christian magistrates were in that tyme yt being graunted that the offices there reckned were already in the church But the D. saith that there were then no Christian magistrates yt foloweth therfore by his owne wordes that the magistrate could nether be expressed nor conteined in those wordes yf yt be said that althowgh the D. say there were none yet I and the trwth yt selfe saie otherwise I answer that all the gyftes and offices there reckned were not onely then but were then most plentifull Considering therfore that the Christian magistrate was then a gifte more rare then at other times after yt can not be that he is comprehended vnder that wordes Vppon all which yt falleth that the Magistrate is head off the church as Andreas saith in respect off that he exerciseth the sword Likewise it goeth to ground which the D. putteth that by the same reason the magistrate is head off the commē wealth next vnder God he may be also head off the church Which is a grosse peticion of the principle being nothing but the contrarie off that I set downe That owte off Chrysostome that certeine weomen were head off the churche off Philippos will not serue considering that he speaketh not off any cheifdome in powre or autoritie but off excellencie in godlines and zeale And the greek word he vseth signifying also a summe nedeth not to be taken in signification off head but that Chrysost meaninge was that in those weomē there was as it were a summe off the church in whose godly vertues a man might beholde the estate off the whole Nay yt can not but with great violence there signifie a head for then he should haue said they were heades of the church and not head And if it shoulde yet yt muste be vnderstanded that head there is to say the cheife off the weomen off that church which is nothing to purpose for I am sure yt was not Chrysost minde to preferre them to the Bishopes c. The cauill also that the magistrate being but a member off the church is not therby barred from being head is vnworthy answer seing yt is manifest off what members I spake and the Bishop off Salsbury speaketh euen in the same wordes Yf yt be said that the magistrates honour ys touched here I answer that then the Angels them selues are dishonoured which hauing gouernement of kingdomes and nations add also of the churches which they serue haue not nor owght as I haue shewed to haue the title off head off the churche Nay those which goe abowte to gratifie Princes with the spoile off our Sauiour Christe are found dishonorers of them as those which leaue thē no place in the church of Christe for if the magistrate be head of the church of Christe which is within his domyniō thē he is none of yt For all that church maketh the bodie of Christe and euery one of the church fulfilleth the place of one member of the body So that he that is not of the body can haue no place in the church yf yt be further said that he hath iniury considering that he bringeth such singular comforte and profit vnto the church establishing the purenes off religion ouerthrowing the corruptions repressing sinne crowning vertue beside the weight of glory which attendeth for good Princes in the life to come and that they are honoured with most honorable names which owght more then contente the moste excellent seruantes off God which are but symple creatures yt muste be also considered that as the godly magistrate being head of the common wealth bringeth singular commoditie vnto the church so doo the godly pastors which be the church
Timothe a simple bishop as left in one cytie But it is good to obserue by the vvay how the Ans building vvith one hand ouerthroweth vvith the other For let all men that haue but a graine of salt iudge how likely it is that Timothe was Archbishop wheÌ„ so many writers both ould and new yea some in those times that archbishops were speaking of him not one calleth him archbishop but all bishop as in his treatise may appeare but thus their tounges must be confounded that build vpp Babylon As for Titus vvhom Erasmus calleth archbishop to make his autoritie of any vveight he muste needes raise that title ether of some name giuen vnto him in the scripture or of some effect which he was knowen to excute proper to an archbishop or els off some auncient writer But he could not raise it of any title the scripture giueth him there being none such nor off any thing Titus did forasmuch as there is nothing doon off him vvhich the Ans affirmeth not to be commen to euery bishop nothing prescribed to him which was not prescribed to Timothe whom Erasmus calleth simply bishop nor off any auncient vvriter there being none browght nor as I am perswaded can be browght therfore it is cleare that Erasmus calling Titus archbishop hath no weight as one vvhich spake according to the corruption off time vvherin he liued The rest of this diuis is answered before for the next let yt be iudged how yow haue ouerthrowne that alledged towching Timothe and Tite being Euangelistes I will also refer to the readers iudgement what vnlearnednes yt ys to confute autoritie by better autoritie and in vvhat place the D. vvill haue vs receiue mens autoritie vvhen he vvill not haue them controlled by other men How by this meanes he that hath the first place to speake may stop the mouth off all that follow forasmuch as yt shall be vnlawfull for them ether owt off the autors vvhich the first speaker alledged or any other to oppose a contrary sentence How also this being so vnlearnedly doon off me is notwithstanding learned in him which hath vsed it diuers times I leaue also to be iudged how to the pourpose he hath alledged thes examples off Iustice and cheif Iustice seing I helped him with this kinde off diuision and yt might haue easely appeared that my argument vvas that forsomuch as the Scoliast called them simply bishope therfore yt could not be thowght that he esteemed them archbishops vvhich is opposite meÌ„ber in this diuision Last of all how absurdly ys it saied that he which calleth an archbishop a bishop speaketh properly WheÌ„ he that hath litle more then learned his GraÌ„mer knoweth that it is a Trope vvherin the generall is taken for the speciall which is contrary to proper speach To the first reason I haue shewed vvhat mighte lead Erasmus to cal Titus archbishop ouer Crete and not Timothe ouer Ephesus To the seconde I am content that my reason off framing titles according to times be nothing worth yf Erasmus in a matter off diuinitie and hauing the vaile off corrupt tymes to hinder his sighte could not be deceiued which erred in many thinges and in those he sawe was ofte more Cretian theÌ„ Christian The third Erasmus did not gyue Titus a title according to the custome off that age wherin him selfe lyued for that there was then no bishop of Crete â—s there was of Rome when Vincentius lyued ys sensles Consydering that my answer is apparante that in speaking of Titus he applied him selfe to the coustome which had preuailed in all places off calling the bishops off the metrapolitane cyties archbishops which this answer towchech not Let him shewe one approued autor for the name of archbishop or patriarch once onely vsed in Eusebius time or before to note the superioritie off one bishop ouer all his fellowes and wee will all clap our handes vnto him if he can not then yt ys shame to say those names were vsuall in Eusebius tyme. That Nicephorus spake no otherwise off Victor then yow haue set downe yt is all one to me which pourposed to shew that he spake otherwise then ether Eusebius or the trwth would suffer hauing regard vnto the tymes wherin he lyued So that my vntrue reportes off autors are such as they are no more beficiall to my cawse then if I had vsed their very wordes For my answer made vnto Volusianus and Erasmus that men vse to speake and to thincke for the moste parte of thinges past by the measure off thinges present yf yt had no examples to warrant yt with yet yt is so manifest and sensible that I durst barely leaue yt to the conscience off all and yf the D. would gyue the rule of his toung but a litle into the hand of his conscieÌ„ce I dowbt not but he would also confesse yt Howbeit we haue a manifest example in the Centuries which confessing there was no Metropolitane in Cyprians time call him Metropolitane Another in Cornelius whom M. Philpot calleth patriarke of Rome wheÌ„ all know that ther was no patriarke many yeares after him Laste off all when yt happened vnto me to call Cyprian Metrapolitane which am an enemy to that estate as I am also charged therwith by the D. following therin the custome off the tymes which folowed how muche more might that befall to others which had no such combat with that office That next conteining vaine excuses to salue ether his ignorance or his vnfaithfullnes I haue answered His escape that Iames called bishop by Eusebius to whom may be adioined Ierome yet might be Archbishop I haue coÌ„futed The plenty off testimonies for the Archbishop browght now hideth not his pouertie in his fyrst boke for all may know that this haruest cam in sithens For the expositioÌ„ of Ireneus which interpreteh they euery one seuerally yf they seuerally ordeined bishope euery one in his circuit so it be vnderstanded with the churches consent as is before declared I am well content Yf the error off my argument had bene so grosse as yowr sight had perceiued yt I had bin sure to haue heard of yt Whatsoeuer and how many cawses soeuer yow assigne of appoincting an archbishop yet this is a perfect diuision off the subiecte that forsomuch as the Archbishopricke if any owght to be muste needes be both in some person and place not found by thapostels ordination which knewe the best gouernment nether in that person nor place both most fittest and moste likest to receiue yt yt muste folow that yt owght not to be As for yowr exception off the time fyrst yt is your manner that yow might be thowght to haue store off answer to make fowre off one for wheras the tyme and persons to be gouerned the suppression off sectes and peace off the church â–ª are put for seuerall cawses yt ys manifest that one time maketh no difference off gouernement from another
as in other places hath seduced yow For this was taken owt off Pighius and obiected off Harding againste the bishop off Salisbury vnto whom alledging for the proofe therof the Epistles off Pope Gregorie the bishop answereth he could not refuse that vvhich vvas neuer offered him And the trwth is that not onely there is no such offer to be founde in that Councell but thinges plainly repugnant For yt saith expressely the bishop off Constantinople shall haue equall preuiledges vvith Rome And the same Councell gyueth the same honor throwghowt vnto the bishop off Constantinople which yt gaue the bishop off Rome sauing that becawse yt was the firste seate off the Empire yt is content that yt shall haue the firste place The same also may appeare by the second prouinciall Councell off Constantinople where this is repeated owt off the Calcedon Councell Now seing this councell made the Bishop of Constantinople equall in priuiledges and honor with the Bishop off Rome yt muste needes be a meere fable off Pope Gregory the Papistes and our D. that this Councell offred vnto the Bishop off Constantinople the title off vniuersall Bishop Thus with my vnskilfullnes I am constrained to make vp the gap the D. laieth open vnto the Papistes Where he saith Constantinople required nothing but according to the 6. canon off the Councell of Nice he greatly erreth For firste the priuiledges of the church of Antioche in that councel were cleane dashed and the whole state off the church being deuided into the rule off fowre that is the bishop off Rome Constantinople Alexandria and Ierusalem the churches were browght into myserable seruitude which may appeare by the Councell off Constantinople which decreeing this afterward autoriseth the canon off that matter by the councell off Calcedon Secondly wheras the Councell of Nice reserued to euery prouince her priuiledges and honor wherof this was parte as appearethe by other decrees that the bishops of euery prouince should choose their metrapolitane he off Constantinople toke a way thes priuileges from the greateste parte off the churches throw owght the whole worlde cōsidering that he had by this councell th appointing of the Metrapolitans off parte of Europe and of all Asia sauing a litle corner vvherin they had pinned vp the bishop off Ierusalem Thirdly yt is cleare that not onely at the time of the Nicene Councell he had no suche large domynion but his Iurisdiction long after was shut vp vvithin the bandes off Thracia onely withowt hauing any thing to doo ether in Pontus or Asia as appeareth clearly both by Socrates and by a former councell off Constantinople Thus may the Answ great skill for the shew wherof he hath thus ranged from the cawse easely appeare Now let yt be considered what is answered vnto the argument wherby vppon the wordes of the councell off Carthage the bishop of the fyrste seat should not be called the cheife off the Preistes or the high preiste or any such thing I concluded the title off the Archhishop forbidden He saith that was made agaynste the bishop off Rome and the meaning off that Councell was that no bishop should be called by the name off vniuersall bishop which is firste directly againste that he hath said before off the title off the vniuersall bishop offred in the Councell off Calcedon vnto the bishop of Rome For if Rome desired not that title yea refused it offered then there was no such cause off the decree off the African Councells to bridle it in the title off vniuersall bishop Secondly this exposition bringeth manifeste force to the councells wordes For if the name of an Archbishop be not sufficiently forbidden by thes wordes Prince off the preistes which in the councells language confounding preiste and bishop is all one with the name off an Archbishop yet it is forbidden by those wordes which folow no bishop shall be called by any such name And if that be not sufficient 10 stop the waie againste suche trifling cauils as thes yet the wordes that follow he shall onely be called the bishop of the firste seate are so plaine that he muste haue a very hard forhead that will goe abowte to owtface them Moreouer Gratian addeth as a parte off this canon but vniuersall bishop let not the bishop off Rome himselfe be called Wherby is manifest how vaine the D. shifte is For onles he had in the former wordes mente all other bishops there can be no place for thes no not the bishop off Rome and onles the councell had ment some other thing then vniuersall bishop by thes wordes cheife preiste ther is no place for thes vniuersall bishop For if wee should folow the D. exposition wee should make the councell speak after this sorte the bishop off Rome shall not be called vniuersall bishop but vniuersall bishop no not the bishop off Rome him selfe shal be called Which when yt ys absurd wee muste needee hold that this Councell prouided not onely againste the ambitiō of the bishop off Rome but off all other and not againste the puffe of the name of vniuersall bishop onely but againste the smokeie title off Archbishop Patriarch c. Furthermore in another councell which confirmeth the canons off this it appeareth plainly that that canon was made especially for the African churches for the prouinces off Numidia Mauritania and Tripolis For Aurelius and Musonius presidents off that Councell in their Epistle to the Bishop off those prouinces charge them that they had not kept those canons and shew how some couered them selues by ignorance off them And not onely the councell off Carthage holden somewhat more then 400. yeares after Christe forbiddeth thes loftie titles but the councell off Carthage wherat Cyprian was within 200. and od years after Christe is found off the same iudgement vvith this that no bishop should be called bishop of bishops So that to auoid this argument the Answ muste be compelled to say that the bishop of Rome claimed the title off vniuersall bishop within about 200. and 50. yeares after Christe which althowghe he dare much I thincke he dare not answer Againe he may vnderstande that he hath the bishop for partie For he alledging owt off Origine that the mynisters in the very time off persequution vvhileste he liued passed the owtrage off worldly Princes addeth that for that cawse this canon of the Councell of Carthage vvhich I haue set downe was made Gyuing plainly to vnderstand that it was to kill the yche off ambition in the whole order off ministerie not as he beareth vs in hand onely in respecte off one person And if there be any credit to be gyuen vnto Gregory there were nighe 600. yeares at the leaste run owt or euer the bishop there made claime vnto this title For he saith no bishop off Rome vntill his time had taken to him self that title off singularitie or vvould euer consent to be called by so prophane a name off vniuersall
a simple exception against the Councell off Vrbane that it is not to be found in the tome off Councells especially when I cite it but for a storie witnes seing there are some Councells of more weight owt off that booke then some in yt When Sozome tieth the archdeacon to the church of Alexandria as well as the Elders and Deacons onles he wll say that the Elders and Deacons were not tied vnto that church he must cōfesse that the archdeacon was Which if it were not cleare by Sozome is manifest by the wordes of Ierome and Gregory before recited Where he saith we haue no archdeacon not tied to one church seing he is called the archdeacon off such a shire and hath his office not in one but a hundred churches I leaue it to the readers Iudgement with what boldnes he determineth to owtface all truth Likewise I leaue to his iudgement whether Ieromes wordes which to declare the manner off the bishops election bringeth for example the choise of the archdeacō by the Deacōs be cleare to proue that I haue alledged thē for and how friuolous he is in his shiftes as thowgh it were so strange a thing for the soldiers to choose their Capitaine and how he taketh it for graunted that it is not materiall who chose the archdeacon which is before confuted and last of all how well he concludeth that forasmuch as a bishop is aboue a Deacon therfore he is aboue the whole colledge off Deacons Likewise how soundly he hath answered vnto the 2. next sections which to auoide the subiection off the archdeacon vnto the minister is driuen to denie that an Archdeacon is a Deacon which notwithstanding affirmeth that an Archbishop is a bishop yt being also before shewed that Gregorie calleth an archdeacon Deacon and being more clearer then the day that as the archelder was both an Elder and vnder any bishop so the Archdeacon was a Deacon and of right vnder any Elder Considering that Ierome speaketh of that Deacon at whose testimonie an Elder was made which one may easely vnderstand to haue bene an archdeacon I leaue the thinges before handled off Residence on a certein place for euery minister here is question onely what likelihood our Deanes haue with the ould Which becawse the D. will not perceiue I must be compelled to shew Augustines wodes to him better First therfore the Deanes were monkes for often monkes one was Deane and consequently not ministers when it is manifest by stories that the ould monkes were not onely no ministers of the word but not so much as within any order ecclesiasticall Secondly it was a reproche for those monkes and Deanes to be in any citie or great towne seing that a citie was a prison vnto monkes and agreed vnto them as drie lād vnto fish Thirdly their profession was to labour and to gaine their liuing by hand nether was it lawfull for them otherwise to liue so that he that did not labour was esteemed as a theefe beside that their diet was very homely and grosse Hetherto I think there is nothing like with our Deanes Now where the Answ saith the Deanes were set ouer the other 9. Monkes and so in their rule resemble ours he forgetteth that their rule was but in prouision for meate and playing the part off their Cater wheroff they made account vnto the Father Of whom there was no cawse the D. should make mention here but that he finding no deanly autoritie in this poore Deane would faine make it owt in the father whilest he would make the reader belieue that the Father and Deane were all one Where he saith thes were godly societies which Augustine speaketh off I will not denie but that Ierome and August with others commend them as it is not hard to shew that discommend them but that they were so what shew soeuer they bore being instituted besides the warrant off the word I vtterly denie Wherin I will refer my self to the treatises off diuers learned mē which haue handled that matter that I be not compelled here to set vpō this vermin which the Ans raiseth againe from hell to help the office off the Deane it is enough to haue shewed that beside the name and institution withowt warrant of Gods word they haue nothing in commen As for the vnspeakable profit he saith they bring vnto the church it is but his coustome with riotous and ouerrunning wordes to supply the beggerie of his reasons and yt is confuted in an other place There remaineth one testimonie perteining to this question off tharchbishop taken owt of Beza wherby the Ans would proue thes names good and holy Wherunto before I answer to th end yt may appeare that the D. doth but hunt after wordes contrary to mennes constant practise and manifest writinges I am compelled here to open what Bezaes iudgement is off them First I haue shewed before how he holdeth that the name of dominion wheroff the Archbishop and archdeacon be made doth not agree vnto the ministerie Secondly in an other place he so far misliketh that any should be called archbishop that he saith the order vvhich for policie sake vvas taken in the auncient church that one onely amongest the Elders of euery churche should haue the name off bishop or president vvas the first foundacion vvhich the deuill laied off tyrannie in the churche After it came to Metrapolitanes vvhich they call archbishops vvhich distinction had notvvithstanding a glorious pretence that Synodes might be the easelier called and some order kept in gouernement of thinges Then to fovver Patriarches from fovver to tvvo from tvvo to one vvhich is the Pope In the end for conclusion he addeth behold vvhat it is to goe a naile breadeth from the vvord off God. Thirdly that the auncient fathers established amongest the bishops Metropolitanes he confesseth a good intent but forsomuch as that horrible tirannie vvhich proceded off them did ruine the churches and novv hindereth the reformacion off them vve vvill saith he content our selues vvith the coustome and order off the Apostles c. But what will the D. say to that he saith Archbishops ād Primates are a shadovv and image of the policie of Rome vvhich came in by litle and litle that he calleth them pety tyrantes in respect off the Pope that althovvgh the names be neuer so auncient yet it ovvght to haue bene inquired vvhether it vvere lavvfull to bring them into the church and if it vvere yet vvhether it be expedient novv in this regeneration off the gospell to set vp a fresh or to abolishe them that he saith it is an other reason of a Bishop Pastor Deacon Elder as those vvhich are instituted by the holy gost that he is so far frō allowing Archbishops that our kinde of bishops he calleth counterfaict bishops reliques of poperie such as vvill bring in Epicurisme that all vvhich vvil the churches safe must take heede of that pestilence that
prophanacion yt was of the giftes of God no man of any iudgement in the worde of God can be ignorante For semeth it a meete thing that for the blessing off God gyuen vnto their preaching they shoulde be made rulers off all those peoples which they gained And what differeth this from symonie but that as one selleth the giftes off the holy goste for monie so this made march andrise off them for honor and money both And verely hauing before a competente stocke in this poincte they did not so much get disciples vnto Christe as to them selues nor so much enlarge his kingdome as their owne not doo thoffice of pastors as of hirelinges and stâ—pendarie souldiers bente vpon the spoile Another cause off this scarcitie was that as they prouided that there should be no bishops where were none before so they decred that in dioceses where there were if after the deathe of the bishop the people of that church had rather yelde them selues subiecte vnto another bishop then chuse a newe that it shoulde be lawfull for them so to doo And theruppon yt is very like that diuers churches when good bishops beganne to be rarer then wedges of golde seing any one which behaued him selfe more tolerably yelded them selues vnto him Not muche vnlike those times off the Lordes indignacion which the Prophete speaketh of wherin a nomber of weomen laide holde off one man Beside that it is not vnlike but the stately pompe off bishops hauinge taken deepe roote the people did not vnwillingly quite the estate of a bishop and as off an euill neighbor and one which laie to heauy vpon them were glad to be rid off him yt might be also the peoples faulte which as our experience teachethe to muche rather then they woulde beat the charge of mainteining a sufficiente mynistrie off their owne were contente to yelde vp their priuiledge off hauing a bishop to receiue with abatement off their charges a mynistrie they cared not what Laste of all when Sathan had lifted vp the sonne of perdition into his feare and had made a full conqueste off all synceritie off religion yt was flatly decreed that yt should not be lawfull to ordeine any Bishop ether in villages or small cytie leste throwghe the multitude bishops should waxe vile as I haue alledged in the former booke Wherupon cometh here to be considered what ys answered that I be not coÌ„pelled there to renewe this question againe His answer is that I haue falstfied the place that I haue not redd the Epistle that yf I had hauing anie modestie I would neuer haue so written To let the reste goo and withal his vnworthy reproche so often repeated for saying Boniface to Zacharie in steade off Zachary to Boniface seing the quotation in the margent is right I say to let thes goe consider wherin I haue vsed falshoode Yâ— ys firste assigned in that where the wordes off the Epistle are leste the name off a Bishop shoulde vvax vile I saide leste they shoulde vvaxe vile throvvghe the multitude If I haue falsified in adding throvvgh the multitude what truth or faithe hathe the Answerer vsed in adding becawse the contemptiblenes off the place often tymes bringeth contempte off the person This addicion off wordes ys greater then mine and no more founde in the Epistle then mine whose interpretacion is more aggreable vnto the minde off the writer his that the daunger off contempte was conceiued by reason off the place ormine that it was by reason off the multitude let the reader iudge Which that he may he may the easelier doo let it be considered what Ierome writeth where speaking off the pride off the Deacons he assigneth the cawse that they were so much set by to haue bene their fewnes and the cawse why the Elders were so light made of becawse they were moe in nomber For the aboundance of any commoditie doth so commenly bring downe the price of it that there is no nation I thinck where it is not in prouerb that rare thinges are greatly esteemed as contrariwise thinges off excellent and necessarie vse are throwgh their multitude called vile Which is declared there by example of Poley a commen and vile herb in those countreis and yet for the rarenes more esteemed in India then pepper Of the other side where he saith they were not placed in villages â–ª or small cities because the smallnes of the place doth make the person often times contemned in steed that it is meet the bishop should be reuerenced by that reason there should be no minister of the word in those places at all For it behoueth that the minister also haue the reuerence of his people which becommeth the embassadour and steward off Christ and if the bishop looke for more he pricketh at a further marck then euer the word off God set vp But how cometh it to passe that the bishop off Canturbery is more esteemed then the bishop off London and he off Winchester then he off Norwich if the place cawse the estimacion of the Bishop When gentlemen and noblemen build their howses more commenly in small townes and more solitary places doth the Ans thinck that they lose any of their estimacion therby Also by this reason it owght to be forbidden that Iustices off Peace and Quorum shoulde dwell in countrey townes and commaunded to dwell onely in great townes lest they be contemned off the people But beside that it is contrary to the wisdome of God in the scripture the Paganes which neuer saw that light could tell that the places doo not make men honorable but men the places And Ierome saith the bishop off an obscure citie hath as much autoritie as he off the most famous If the D. aÌ„swer that it owght to be so but it is not throwgh the folie off certein yf that were graunted yet yt is vnmeet that the ministrie should be according to the euill disposition off certein for then forsomuch as yowth is subiect to contempt it shoulde be vnmeet to choose a young man of what giftes soeuer vnto the ministerie Thother falshoode the Ans chargeth me with is for that I gather off this canon that in times paste there were bishops in seuerall parishes and small townes when there was no bishop before off anie parishe yt semeth that his vnderstanding can not be so simple but that he maie perceiue if there were no other proofe that those canones made so often for the forbidding of ordeining of bishops in villages and small cities proceeded theroff that the churches in villages and small cyties had their bishops as other places had For to what pourpose doo they defende yt but that yt was vsed And wherfore was that lawe so often renewed vnles there had bene resistance and vnles the churches refused to subiecte themselues to suche a wicked order yf men make not lawes but vpoÌ„ erperience of thinges which they mislike how muche les doo they renew them againe and againe
Callis Deep Ireland and Flaunders then at Canterbury Yea the triall from Carthage vnto Rome is much easier seing there was but three daies iorney betwene Rome and Carthage As appeareth by that Cato to induce the Senate of Rome to desiroy Carthage held ovvt a fig saying that vvas but the third day sithēs that fig grevv in Carthage Therfore Cyprians argument by his interpretacion is not worth a shoe buckle to proue that they owght not to flie from Carthage to Rome the passage being easter then from one end of a Prouince to an other Especially making suche large Prouinces as he doth that is one to cōteine 160. bishoprickes belike such as ours Where he saith this reason may serue as well againest VVestminster hall leauing that as impertinent vnto this question it shall be sufficiēt to answer that besides that there be many causes ended in lower courtes houldē almost in euery village he owght to vnderstand that ecclesiasticall causes are to be handled with greater speed then ciuill matters of consciēce more then of the pourse the title of heauēly inheritance more then the earthly of the life to come then of this So that althowgh the trial of ciuill cawses for the whole realme were as he saith necessary a◠Westminster yet the same reason will not stand in ecclesiasticall In all thes places which the Ans hath browght owt off Cyprian Eusebius Socrates it is manifest that one bishop is opposed vnto heretick bishops Whereby may appeare how like it is which I haue alledged that by one bishop is vnderstanded not the vnitie off nombre but off truth in religion And that there be no doubt hereof let Cyprians wordes be considered That there should be an other altar appointed and a nevv priesthood besides one altar and one priesthood it can not be VVhatsoeuer he be vvhich gathereth īn an other place scattereth yt is adulterous yt is vvicked yt is sacriledge vvhatsoeuer the rage off men doth institute vvherby the ordinance off God is broken Now except the Ans will say it is wicked against the word of God adulterous to haue two bishops in one citie yt must follow that Cyprians wordes doo not bar many bishops to be in one citie And what if it be shewed that not onely in Cyprians time but in Cyprians church there were diuers bishops Augustine speaking of the Donatistes which seperated them selues from the church for that they saw certein faultes vnpunished therin saith Hovv did then Cyprian and other the Lordes corne in that church meaning Carthage of vnitie eate the Lordes breade and drink his cup not vvith the people onely or commen sort off the Clergie but vvith the bishops themselues vvhich vvere couetous ketchers and vvhich shall not possesse the kingdome off heauen I woulde gladly vnderstand what Bishops they were like to be with vvhom Cyprian did celebrate the supper off the lord were they not Bishops off the churche off Carthage If they were it appeareth I haue not so vainly expounded Cyprian as the Ans would beare his reader in hand And althowgh the D. be not able to proue that ther was but one onely bishop in a citie in Chysostomes time yet I graunt that was obserued in the moste places Whether I am able to shew that from Christes time there were two Bishops in one cytie before appeared now appeareth what a vaine crack it was that all the godliest and best learned expound Cyprians wordes off an Archbishop when not one can be found to testifie it Yet to th end he may haue some thing to mainteine this brag he goeth about to make the writers differ from them selues For if this place be off the autoritie that euery bishop hath in his dioces as writers doo flatly affirme in so much that the bishop off Salisbury bringeth in Cyprian speaking after this sort For euery bishop saith Cyprian vvithin his ovvne dioces is the priest of God c then yt cannot be vnderstanded of an Archbishop For the autoritie Cyprian speaketh off being the highest and such as could not be controlled of any other bishop yt must necessarily seclude tharch bishops autoritie which is aboue a bishop And as the Answ to make Cyprians place serue his turne was compelled to expound Priest archbishop church Prouince so to make the bishop and M. Fox help to beare owt his folies he must expound dioces Prouince and Bishop archbishop And what man̄er of proofe is this to cōclude the greater by the lesse yf of an archbishops autoritie he had concluded a bishops it had bene more probable but off a bishops to conclude an archbishops and off dominion ouer a dioces as he pretendeth to conclude dominion ouer one Prouince is far owt off square The next is answered in the beginning The first place is that the bishop vpon that of Cyprian saith confusion and sectes rise in a Prouince or dioces vvhere the Bishops autoritie c. Here because the bishop maketh mention off Prouince he concludeth that he speaketh off an archbishop As if his wordes may not well be taken that the confusion of secres insueth in a whole Prouince thorowghowt because the bishops autoritie which be therī is dispised For beside that I haue shewed that the bishop can not sauing his former sentence which he soft repeateth expound Cyprians place off an archbishop if he had in this place ment an archbishop it had bene easie to haue coupled him with his Prouince as he doth the bishop with his dioces He asketh me what I call him that hath gouernement off a Prouince I aske him where the bishop off Sal. saith Cyprians place is to be vnderstood of that bishop which hath gouernement off a Prouince doth the onely mention of the word Prouince ▪ infer an Archbishop If he proue an Archbishop and Prouince relatiues so that a man can not name the one but he muste vnderstand the other he saith some thing Ad also that the Ans dealeth vnfaithfully in this place For the bishop making his conclusion both off Cyprian and of a place off Honorius Emperour he propoundeth it as the conclusion of Cyprians place onely Whereas if he could conclude off thes wordes vvithin a prouince an archbishop yet yt were easie to answer that the bishop put in those wordes in respect of the place cyted owt of the Emperour and not in respect off Cyprians Considering that within a dousen lines after he affirmeth that Cyprians place is vnderstanded off thautoritie off a Bishop within his seuerall dices and by vvhole Brotherhood a companie vvithin a seuerall dioces For that off M. Novvell pag. 33. beside that whatsoeuer he speaketh there is not vpon this place of Cyprian but of an other I haue shewed in the former booke that cheif Prelate ys not alwaies vsed for a bishop And that it is not altogether vnlike but M. Nowell might meane so appeareth by that the D. cyteth owt off the 62. and 63. pag. wherehe taketh cheif
set downe off the Ans He saith it is a poore refuge to discredite the autor I spared the autor casting part of the error vpoÌ„ the times wherin he liued which I proued corrupter and further from the truth left by thapostles by a reason which he could not so much as wrangle with althowgh as towching the proofe off an archbishop or bishop suche as ours I am content the Ans set vp his credit as much as he will. He saith there is no difference betwene Cyprians bisbop and Ieromes Seing he will needes haue it so let one measure be off both and therby I trust shall appeare off that which I haue spoken before that Ieromes bishop is lower by heade and shoulders then they for whom his autoritie is houlden owt Howbeit if in Cyprians time the bishop onely had not the laying on of handes and ordeining him that was chosen to the ministrie by the church but the Elders and he did nothing in his church or parish but vvith aduise of the Elders theroff yt appeareth that Ieromes bishop althowgh differing onely from an other minister in ordeining Elders and Deacons had somwhat encroched vpon the boundes off the presbitery more then Cyprians Lastly he saith for the corruption off times this kinde of bishop was deuised I willingly giue testimonie vnto those gouernours or at least the most off them that they had a good meaning in that inuention off man but that it was remedy against the corruptions I deny And to the reasons before alledged for proofe therof let this be added that euen from the first day wherin this deuise was established the corruption in the church was not deminished but grew and got strenght by litle vntill the whole face of the earth was couered and the power off darcknes in the fulnes off Antichristes kingdome wholy setled Likewise that the first resistance by any setled church against that corruption was by those which abolished that deuise off man and receiued the order in the Apostels times towching the equalitie off ministers As the Bohemians Merindoles the churches in Germany and Geneua whose standerd bearers as partly hath appeareth and more hereafter shall fowght against this stately dominion both of bishops and archbishops The next diuis I leaue to the readers iudgement referring him to that answered in the beginning In the next as one whose forehead is more hard then Adamant he shameth not still to affirme that this manner off bishop and archbishop was in the Apostles time notwithstanding the autor owt off whom he draweth his proofes confesseth that at the first there was no difference betwene a bishop and an Elder and that after it was decreed that in euery church one onely should haue the name of bishop Yf it were the first institution that they shoulde be one and the first institution be the Apostels institution it was the Apostels institution that they shoulde be all one yf the Apostels did reuoke this institution off theirs shewe their handes bringe forthe their euidence Ierome prouethe by diuers testimonies off scripture that a bishop and elder were one according to S. Paul. Therfore if the D. auoide this autoritie he must shewe vs the Apostels autoritie in writing for herin yt is trwe that the lawe saith matter of vvriting and recorde can not be auoided but by that of as high a nature He gathereth that this order of bishops and archbis was in thapostles times because there were schismes then I haue by this reason proued in an other place that thâ—â—e were no archbishops where if he had any thinge he should haue spoken And how is he bewitched which seeth not the wordes of his autor For when Ierome saith this came by custome he euidently declareth that â—â— was not by determinacion of the Apostels The same declareth Augustin when he saith the office of a bishop vvas greater then off an other mynister as tovvching the names off honor throvvghe a custome off the churche vvhich novve hathe gotteÌ„ the vpper hand Likewise when Ierome saithe this preferment of the bishop is not by any necessitie of lavve but for that yt vvas graunted to honor him vvithall yt ys manifeste that yt was not by the Apostlels determinacion For yf yt had bene their institution yt had bene necessarie After admitting yt was after the Apostels he procedeth to answer Tertullian which saithe that ys true vvhich is first that ys false vvhich is later But how cometh yt to passe that he anwereth not that alledged owte off our Sauiour Christes e wordes which calleth the Pharisies vnto the firste institution that was belike to harde for him to byte vpon And the answer vnto Tertullian is absurde For he bringeth him in reasoning as he vseth that is prouing the thinge in controuersie by that a like doubtefull For if the rule of Tertullian extende yt selfe no further then vnto thinges he there speaketh of and in debate his reason is no reason but a giddie turne aboute wherin altowghe greate paines be taken yet there is no grownde gotten Wheras Tertullian proue the that Praxeas iudgement of our Sau. Christe was therfore naught because yt was new aÌ„d new because yt was not agreing with that gyuen by the scripture Moreouer his answer to the place presumeth that the gouernement off the churche is not a matter off faithe and saluacion which is the question And as for his Phantasies he resembleth my reason with they haue nothing like For beside that there were Christian magistrates baptisinges in churches coÌ„munion ministred vnto more then 12 â–ª in thapostels times and off their alowance the Apostels neuer tawght that there should be no ChristiaÌ„ magistrates no baptisinges hut in riuers no eating off thinges strangled c. the contrary off all which they plainly taught ordeining onely that the Gentils should support the Iewes in strangled thinges abut they rawght that a bishop and traching elder be all one and neuer alowed that one Pastor shoulde take the name off a bishop from all his fellows within 40. myles compas The testimonie owt off Tertull maketh way for Montanus heresie wherof I haue spoken beforé Vnto the nexte diuis he answereth not For yt being plaine that the Apostels tawght that a bishop and elder were all one because he had nothinge to answer he leueth that and runnethe backe to that handled in the beginning off the equalitie off ministers As for the testimonie owte of Zuinglius firste yt is vntrw that the Anabaptistes obiecte this place againste Zuinglius which I haue pressed him with secondly yt is vntrue that they obiected vnto him in the like case which wee doo for in all their controuersies with him they haue not one of those pointes now debated And where he saith Tertullians wordes serue not because thes degrees are not againste the truth let him denie if he dare that this is the truth off God that a Bishop and an other minister off the word be all
one Then let him answer whether thes sayinges a bishop and an other minister off the word are all one a bishop and an other minister off the word be not all one be opposed and set one against an other If he can deny none off these then it ys iustly concluded that this inuention off man which hath made a bishop to differ from another mynister off the worde is againste the truth Because I loue not that compas off wordes which the D. delighteth in I concluded shortly and yet sufficiently to the vnderstanding off any that dothe not willingly blindefolde him selfe My argument ys The best deciding off controuersies vvas in the apostels time but that vvas not by archbishops vvherfore the best deciding of cōtrouersies is not by archbishops for proofe that yt was not by archbis I set downe that there were no archebishops then Vnto this deformed face off reason as he calleth yt let vs see how formally he answereth Firste he saith we are not bounde to the forme of gouernemēt vsed by the Apostels and therin referreth him selfe to that he hath and shal saie where also let him take his answer Secondly that althowghe the Apostels had not the name off Archbishops yet they had the office which I haue shewed to be a shift of the Papistes Then yt is to be obserued how he proueth that thapostels had the office of an archbishop and in what good logicke Archbishops haue the direction off many churches the ending off controuersies c. the Apostles had the same therfore the Apostels were archbishops by this reason a man maie proue not onely diuers but contrary thinges to be all one seing contraries haue diuers thinges wherin they agree So that first this kinde off reasoning hath the fault of those ridiculous argumentes which the D. propoundeth pag. 316. secondly yt taketh for graunted which is the question For he presumeth that the Archbishops office kepeth the church in godly quietnes which is debated Thirdly to proue the Apostels autoritie in the churches which is not in question he hath made a greate muster of testimonies to proue the archbishops not a word After he cyteth Ambrose to proue that Apostles are bishops Yt is greate merueill if he kepe good order in the church for whose establishement the Answ is constreined thus to confound and make a broile off all and it is before confuted Howbeit admitting that the bishops succede vnto the Apostels in preaching the word and gouerning the church I haue shewed how that is a whip to driue the archbishop cleane owt of the church off god And this is here to be obserued that when it is saide the bishops succede vnto the Apostels c. that must be vnderstanded off the Apostles bishops and such as they instituted For what bishops haue better right to succede the Apostles then they But those were as I haue shewed bishops off singular congregations bishops which had no superiotitie ouer their fellowbishops as Ierome doth confesse In the end he saith If I can proue by good autoritie that one was gouernour amongest the 12. Apostles it shall not seme strange to haue an archbishop ouer a Prouince If vpon this that one had gouernement of 12. assembled in a particular place he can conclude that there should be one gouernour off the ministers in a Prouince I can with better reason conclude that there may be one to gouerne all the ministers in the worlde For if because one gouerned twelue therfore one may gouerne all in Prouince then becawse one may gouerne all in a Prouince I will conclude that one may gouerne all in the worlde As towching the number off those which are gouerned there is not so much difference betwene the ministers off a Prouince and the ministers off the whole church as betwene 12. and the ministers off some whole Prouince Towching the distance off place yt is as much betwene a Prouince and the wole extent off Christianitie as betwene a particular place off an acre breadeth and some Prouince Wherfore this reason is more fauorable to the Pope then to the Archbishop Peters superioritie shall be after seen where also this sentence of Ierome shall be answered Onely here let it be obserued that the Answ hath borowed this reason off Pope Anaclete which alledgeth it to proue Archbishops And it is browght also of Pighius against the protestantes which denied that there owght to be any archbishops as shall appeare herafter more at large The place off Caluin is handled afterward Bucers vpon the Ephes I haue answered That owt off his booke de Reg. Ch. the same in effect hath the same answer Howbeit it is here to be noted how the D. thorowgh greedy desire off seeming to say somwhat putteth downe with one hand that he setteth with the other For to the maintenance off the archbishop and bishop here be browght two testimonies one of Ierome thother of Bucer cleane contrary If Ierome say true that the superioritie off one Bishop ouer an other is by coustome not by institution off God then is that vntrue pretended out off Bucer that it pleased the holie goste yt should be so For if it be off the holie goste it is the institution of god The D. therfore must forgoe one off thes seing that both will neuer drawe in one forowgh The contrarietie with my self which the glosse chargeth me with is for that pag. 349. I saied owt off Eusebius that as long as thapostles liued if any vvent about to corrupt the doctrine they dit it in the darck and here owt off the Apostle I affirme there vvere heresies and schismes Wherin what contrarietie there is and what a trifler this is let the reader iudge sauing that if there were any contrarietie it is not mine with my self but Eusebius with the Apostle The Answ would gird vp his Archbishop in smaller roume that he might seme les growen owt off faschion He saith therfore the archbishop when a schisme or heresie riseth determineth yt according to the law established by the church Wherin he speaketh absurdly considering that the church can make no other rule wherby he may procede in decision off schismes and heresies then in referring him to the rule off the scripture So the summe off this answer is the Archbishop may not determin the matter at his pleasure but according to the word off god As thowgh the question were by what rule controuersies should be decided and not by whom For when the controuersie at Antioch was referred to the Apostles c. in Ierusalem it was not permitted vnto them otherwise to iudge off it then according to the word Now therfore let it be obserued how aptly the D. answereth To abat◠the swelling autoritie off the Archbishop I alledge that in deciding cōtrouersies yt is not permitted to any one to determin vvhat is the vvill off God in that behalf The D. saith the archbishop must determin by the word off God.
whom there is any light off iudgement would say it is matter off storie vvhether the appointing off one in euery church ouer the rest is remedie againste heresie or no I◠perteineth to the storie that one was placed ouer the rest at such tyme and place as is set downe by Ierome likewise that the cawse that moued them to bring in this coustome was for preseruacion off peace and none off thes is denied but whether this cawse were well assigned and whether this supposed to preserue peace banished godly peace is the question If this be a matter off storie storie hath a larger kingdome then euer I heard off Yet this he doth as absurdly charge me with after in Iustines testimonie where likewise I denie no part off his storie Yf this be to discredite men to say their autoritie ovvght not to vveigh further then yt hath vveight ether off scripture or some reason grovvnded theroff then I haue discredited all writers from the Apostels time For by thes weightes I haue esteemed the best But I leaue to be cōsidered what a popish tyrānie he goeth abowt to bring into the church which lifteth the credit of any be he neuer so godly ād learned aboue that which I haue here alledged Where he saith I confound Monarchie with Tyrannie in that I ask whether the church be not in as great daunger when all is doon at the pleasure off one as when one pulleth one peece and an other an other yt is but a vaine shifting hole For althowgh thes wordes at the Pleasure and lust off one be for the moste part spoken by way off dispraise and I willingly confesse I vsed them becawse this Ecclesiasticall monarchie seldome or neuer deserueth better yet my wordes following declare that my comparison is betwene the Ecclesiasticall gouernement off one and off many not betwene one gouerning tyrannically and many moderatly For supposing that both the Archbishop and those which gouerne in commen be godly and catholike I affirme that he being one is sooner drawen into error then many sooner ouercaried with his affection then a godly companie In answer wherof and reasons wherwith this is confirmed the D. falleth flatly into that wherewith he chargeth me For in steed that he should haue marched many godly and learned ministers with one he matcheth him with the multitude and commē sort and in steed off comparing one ruling by law with many gouerning by the same he compareth him with a lawles companie and in steed off comparing a litle vvater with much of the same kinde he compareth a litle conduite water closed vp in lead with much fennish and muddy Which what leaden answers they be let the reader iudge For in this path of reasoning which he walketh in a man may proue it better to haue but one eye then two becawse some see better with one then other some with both His answer to that off preferring contention before vvicked peace that we haue the true doctrine and right administration of Sacramentes c. and therfore no contention is to be moued is as muche to the question as if he had answered off the wether For the question is not of the estate off our church but off all generally nor whether we haue the truth of doctrine c. but by what way yt ys best kept His answer to the similitude of fire stricken by flintes is more fond For I shewing by yt that contētion is better then wicked peace he answereth the fire stricken may be in suche a time that it may consume the whole countrey and that it is madnes to light a candell at noone daies As if the fire off the truth which I spake off and so called off our Sauiour can consume any thing but straw stuble c. or the Apostle were not glad that the truth came forth allthowgh by contention or it were noone day when the heauens thorowgh ignorāce ād errors are like an haircloth which is the time I spake of And where hauing shewed that tharchbishop is not fittest to kepe the church in possession off the truth I admit by way off disputation that he vvere the fittest adding that forsomuch as he hath as great force to kepe men in error vvhen they are fallen into it this in commoditie ovvght to driue vs to some other gouernement he answereth a monarchie being the worst kind of gouernement when it ruleth by affection ceasseth not to be lawfull when it ruleth by lawes Where first I refer the reader to that before that it is one thing off the forme off church gouernement an other of the commēt wealth which is answer to all thes slanderous speaches here repeted Secondly the church receiueth greater dammage by an Archbishop keping yt in error then the commen wealth by any outrage off tyrannie For there can be no tyrannie in the gouernement off the cōmen wealth so extreme wherin there is not somthing tending to preseruacion off it and consequently off the church But in the gouernement off an Archbishop fallen from the truth and in the swinge off his vncontrolled autoritie keping the truth vnder there is nothing but destruction and ruine withowt step or footing off the fauour off God towardes the vpholding off the church Seing therfore tyrannie in the commen wealth is not so great an ennemy vnto the commen wealth as a church tyrant vnto the truth there is better cawse to haue a Monarchie in the commen wealth then in the church as that which can not stray so far as the other from the end wherunto it was ordeined Moreouer the cawse why the Monarchie in commen wealth can not be condemned is for that it is one off those gouernementes which God hath established and allowed by his word But the Archbishoprick to let pas that yt is contrarie to the word off God yt is sufficient in this consideration that yt hath no allowance off the same For therupon foloweth that althowgh the abuse off those thinges which God hath approued can not destroie the lawfull vse off them yet this which hath no further alowance then of the mouth off mē may vpon experience off euill husbandrie in the church matters be worthely reiected So yt may be seen that althowghe the Ans would make one case off a Magistrate and archbishop yet there is as far distance betwene them as betwene heauen and earth Yt resteth to shewe that the archbishopricke hath bene so farre from nourishing the church peace that yt hath bene the knife wherwith all the stringes and knottes theroff haue bene cutte in peaces Againste vvhich the Ans alledgeth firste the testymonies off Cyprian and Ierome Wherin besyde that I haue shewed that they helpe him not yt is before declared that nether Cyprians bishop did any thing at all nor Ieromes the ordination excepted but by common consent off all the elders Not onely because they were at making off the church lawes vnder which wrinckel the D. woulde hide the excesse off the archbishops
Cyprian which by one priest in the churche vnderstandeth one onely bishop in a church for therby it foloweth that ether there was but onely one priest in the church of Carthage or els thes wordes bishop and prieste were all one so that whosoeuer was one was the other The nexte diuision hath not a worde to purpose for autorities are quoted to proue that the Apostels apointed Bishops in diuers churches which no man denieth yea I haue namely alledged yt before Where I shew that forsomuche as the Archdeacon is reproued of Ierome for preferring him sefe before an elder because the scripture maketh him inferior vnto the elder by the same reason a bishop is to be reproued for that he preferreth himself before an elder which the scripture maketh his equall he answereth he seeth no sequell nor likelihoode notwithstanding I truste there is none that hathe but his commen sense which dooth not easely vnderstande that yt is no more lawfull for those which are ordeined equalls by the scripture to lifte them selues one aboue an other then yt is lawfull for him that is apointed to be vnder to exalte him selfe aboue his superior for althowghe he be in greater faulte which being vnder exalteth him selfe aboue then he which magnifieth him selfe aboue his equall yet as the ordinance off God cawseth the one to be vnlawfull so yt doothe the other The seconde answer is there maie be degrees amongeste the ministers notwithstanding all this for that Ierome saithe there was a degree This is a verie blunt answer I alledge bothe autoritie off the scripture and Ieromes owne reason againste the distinction off one bishop from the reste and he answereth that the distinction is good for Ierome so saith Thirdly althowgh Ierome confesse that a bishop and an elder be all one by the scripture yet he confesseth superioritie off a bishop before an other elder but he saith they are all one by the scripture and that the bishop is superior by coustome And here he stitchethe in a parenthesis For after he had alledged Ierome confessing that a bishop and an elder are all one by scripture he addeth as they be in deede towching the ministerie Therby desirous as yt seemeth to abuse his symple reader in making him belieue that Ierome mente that there was by the scripture difference in policie betweene a bishop and an other mynister which ouerthroweth the whole intente of Ierome For he sheweth that this difference which the D. in other places termeth for order and Policie betwene a bishop ād an other minister was not by the scripture but by coustome and beganne at Alexandria And seing Ierome putteth a difference betwene the bishop specified in S. Paul and the bishop in his time yf the Answ say that S. Paules bishop differed frō an other minister as towching order and policie I would gladly knowe of him how Ieromes bishop and he which is now differeth from an other minister Yf he answer as he hath doone before that they differ not as towching the ministery but as towching order and policie thē he putteth no differēce betwene S. Paules bishop and Ieromes which is ouerthrow of all that Ierome saith and he hath flatly affirmed where he maketh Ieromes bishop instituted by the churche after the Apostels times After he blusheth not to saie that Ierome makethe a difference betwene S. Paules bishop and another minister For althowghe he broilethe and mingleth all vpon a heape thincking throwgh confusion off all to cawse his treachery not to be seen yet after he doth plainly vtter yt in answering Chrysostomes wordes the same with Ieromes But before I come to his reasons wherby he would proue this I will set downe the wordes off Ierome wherby his vnhoneste dealing maie be better perceiued First he saith a ministre that is to say a bishop and a litle after the Apostle dothe plainly teache that a bishop and a minister are all one And in an other place a Bishop and a minister are the same againe althovvghe vvith the auncient fathers bishops and elders vvere all one Here appeareth manifestly that Ierome saith a bishop and an other minister be all one with the Apostell and with the auncient times that he expoundethe one by the other that he turneth one off them vpon an other for as he saith that bishops be ministers so he affirmeth that mynisters be bishops Nowe of the twoo reasons to proue that Ierome put a difference betweene a bishop and an elder this is the firste the one is a name of age and the other of dignitie which is asmuch to saie as they differ in deede because they differ in name and that the auncientes and elders off the people off Israell were not their gouernours because the name aff auncientes is a name off age and the other of honor or as if the eldest brother were not the heir because the one is a name of age the other of honor Wheras Ieromes purpose is plainly to shew that althowgh the names be diuers yet the thinges are all one And yf there be anie dignitie shut vp in this name bishop the ministers are partakers of it considering that he affirmeth that they be bishops And if there be any inferioritie noted by the name off elder the bishop hathe his parte in yt for so muche as he is an elder Althowghe the trwthe is that by the worde dignitie Ierome mente nothing but an office and called the name off bishop the name off a dignitie becawse the office drawethe dignitie with yt And because of reuerence which the yonger giue to thelder as also for that ministers and bishops were often taken from them whiche were well growne in age they were called elders So that althowgh the name elder be the name off age yet yt draweth as muche honor after yt as the name off bishop His other reason is Ierome saithe an elder is conteined in a bishop which he bringeth as a proofe to shew that Deacons are therfore vnder elders because elders and bishops be all one with S. Paul. So that he hath not onely depraued Ieromes minde but drawne his wordes to a cleane contrarie sense of that he ment for euen by the same wordes wherby Ierome woulde proue they be all one he would proue them diuers And althowghe Ieromes maner of speache here be somewhat harde for that purpose considering that thinges which are all one can not properly be saide to conteine one another yet bothe by his plaine wordes in other places and manifest suite off his disputation he made his meaning so well knowne that no man onles willing coulde stumble at his phrase And if the D. will thus hunt at syllables yet this speache off Ieromes is so farre from helpinge him that yt dooth vtterly ouerthrow all his houlde he snatcheth at For where he vpon thes wordes in a bishop is conteined an elder would conclude that euery bishop is a minister but not euery minister a
the bishop bothe a Patriarche off Englande and a Patriarche off all Englande But because the D. will not suffer him selfe to be bounde with any cordes but off autoritie I will annexe his autoritie off whom he would seeme to haue borowed the greatest pillor off the Archbishop Musculus therfore after he had alledged the sentence off Ierome to Euagr. off equalitie off the Bishop off Rome and Eugubium c. concludeth thus Ierome vvhen he vvrote that did not thincke off the povver off the patriarches metropolitanes and primacie off the bishop off Rome but esteemed that vnto euery bishop did belonge the same care and povver in his ovne church Nowe to the Ans shiftes The first is owte off Ierome to Rusticus that euery ecclesiasticall order is subiecte vnto her gouernours wheroff I would gladly knowe what he concludeth If an Archbishop there is no apparance And the Ans being so bountifull in translating hathe here cut off the sentence in the mâ—ddle for what pourpose let other iudge my answer is therfore that he must proue by Ierome that there was an archbishop or that Ierome alowed off one before the sentence off Ierome can profite the Archbishop His seconde is that the testimonie off Ierome touching the equalitie off the bishops dooth not hurte the autoritie off the Archbishop considering that it is not denied but that euery bishop and minister are equall as towching the ministerie but not in order and policie which distinction althowghe I haue confuted and shewed also immediatly before that it is cleane againste the minde off Ierome yet here yt is to be obserued that as his argument owte off the place againste the Luciferanes for the Archbishop ys borowed of the Papistes so this shifte is Hardinges wherby he would auoide the force off the bishops answer Harding saith that tovvching honor dignitie and povver off bishoply order and office and off pristhood as good and as greate a bishop in that respecte is the one as the other and the bishops off thes litle tovvnes haue as greate a merite in regarde off any their vertues and as great povver concerning the order off priesthood as the bishop off Rome c. Yet tovvching povver and autoritie off regiment the Patriarches off Constantinople c. be aboue the bishops off other dioceses The bishop to this shifte answereth with Erasmus who saith that Ierome seemeth to matche all bishops together as if they vvere all equally the Apostells successors And further alledgeth an other place of Erasmus where owte off that place off Ierome he affirmeth plainlie that the bishop off Rome is aboue other bishops onely by riches If by riches onely then not by gouernement as Harding and the Ans affirme And where Harding vnder this word merite woulde hide him self as doth the Ans the bishop answereth by merite is mente vvithovvt all question preeminence which he D. alledgeth is vsed off Harding againste the bishop so yt ys Latomus an other Papistes shifte againste Bucer vnto whom Bucer answereth the Bishops vvere in euerie respecte at the firste equall one vvith an other as is before alledged And where otherwhere he pretendeth alowance of this Popishe distinction by the godlie writers the trwth is nothing so For as touching Caluin he hath openly depraued him He onely sheweth vpon 2. Cor. 10. vers 8. that there are diuers degrees off ministers and that one is aboue an other as an Apostel aboue a pastor which is confessed but that one pastor is aboue an other which is the question he hath not a worde That owt of Heza is onely a recital what was done not what he alowed coÌ„sidering that as hath bene shewed he vtterly condemneth those offices off Lorde bishop Archbish c. beside that in shewing that they came in proces off time after the Apostles he hangeth the D. cawse on the hedge which woulde haue this distinction in the time of the Apostles Nether hath Hemingius this distinctioÌ„ where the D. supposeth he onely saith that they are equall as towching spiritual regiment What they be in external he referreth to another place which when the D. bringeth he shall haue answer And whensoeuer yt cometh I thincke yt will ouerthrowe his before that there are some ministeries of the word and Sacramentes onely some for gouernement also for althowgh he allowe a gouernement vnto him he calleth bishop larger then to an other minister yet I thincke he can not shew that he shutteth owt thother owte off the externall gouernement Ad also that I haue shewed that euen when thes smokey offices came first in nether the Doctor nor pastor were seuered from gouernement off their seuerall congregation For that wherin the metropolitane then exceded the pastor was a preheminence or honour withowt autoritie so that euen then yt was an euill distinction off certein ministers off the word and sacramentes onely and certeine which did gouerne His third answer is owt off the B. off Salisbury which affirmeth that there were archbishops in Ieromes time But it is to obserued that that assertion off the bishop proceded off mistaking Ierome and some ouersight Which is cleare by that in an other place the bishop auowcheth owt off Ierome â—o Nepotian archbishops where there is no mention off Archbishop in any sort And althowghe the place which the bishop vouchethe be in the Epistle vnto Rusticus yet there is no mention off an Archbishop as I haue before declared This assertion therfore can not helpe the D. which hathe no better grounde His laste proofe is Erasmus who saith that metropolitans haue some dignitie aboue other bishops an other of Hardinges bucklers againste the bishop in the same place Where yt is manifest that Erasmus kepte his oulde coustome off carying fire in the one hande and water to quenche yt in the other and tempered the truthe with some leuaine off the corruption off those times therby to procure saftie vnto him and to his bookes whilest those which coulde not abide to looke vpon the truthe barefaced might at the leaste beare yt being muffled Yf the Ans will make his owtecries that I discredite the autor when I can not answer them beside that I discredite not moe then he I referre me vnto the conscience off all men whether yt be true which I haue saide And yet doo I not saie the tenthe parte off that which I coulde alledge written off him by men off excellent learning and zeale But let yt be considered how bothe corruptly contrary to the minde off Ierome and vnconstantly contrarie to that him selfe hath written off this place he hath blinded thes together For if it be trw that he hath said that Ieromes meaning is that the bishop off Rome differeth from other bishops onelie in riches then it is manifeste that in autoritie he differeth not from the bishop off Eugubium a small towne in the same prouince And where he saith that Ierome in making the bishop off a
base citie equall vvith the reste referreth that to the deacons vvhich in some places vvere preferred before the elders who seeth not but that speaking against the truthe he was so amazed that wordes comminge from him reason stickethe yet in his penne For what reason is there that Ierome shoulde therfore saie the bishop off Eugubium vvas equall vnto the Bishop off Rome notvvithstanding the bishop off Rome vvere his superior because the deacon vvas preferred in Rome before the elder What giue is here to ioyne thes together or what cawse was there that Ierome shoulde speake basely off the metropolitanes autoritie ouer the bishop because the deacon was preferred before the elder ys there anie reason that because the deacon did iniurie vnto the elder therfore Ierome shoulde speake sparingly of the metropolitane â—nd doo him iniurie also moreouer if this was the occasion why he spake so off a bishop because certeine deacons were preferred before the elders considering that that coustome was onely at Rome as Ierome him self declareth why should he make the bishop off Tanais a small towne in Egypte equall with the bishop off Alexandria the metropolitane citie there and the bishop Rhegium equall with the bishop off Constantinople For seing that mischeif off the preferment off Deacons before the elders was not in other places then in Rome there was no cause why he should speake thus off theÌ„ if that had bene the cause which Erasmus alledgeth Where he addeth vvhen Ierome saith the bishops and elders vvere equall that is to be vnderstanded that the elder vvas equall vvith the bishop in that they vvere bothe preferred vnto the deacon I meruaile the Ans is not ashamed to alledge that saying without all colour off truthe For I haue alledged diuers other places owte off Ierome where he speaking absolutely withoute respecte off any deacon affirmeth the bishop and elder all one in the beginning And what a ridiculous disputacion doth he make Ierome to hould For it is all one as if a maÌ„ after longe discourse to proue LondeÌ„ and Yorke equall in the ende shoulde conclude that Yorke were equall with London because they be bothe greater then Nuington Now let the reader iudge what vnworthie outcries the D. vseth bothe before and after off guilful dealing and shifting the place of Ierome therby to drowne the voice of the trwthe and whether I haue interpreted it according to his naturall meaning and as other godlie and learned haue doone and whether he contrarily to mainteine his firste saying hath vsed shiftes partely popishe ouerthrowinge the answers off those which haue trauailed againste popery aswell as mine partely fonde and childishe which he woulde beare owt with Erasmus autoritie withowt any weight off reason Likewise how he after dallieth in his longe translation and repetition of Ierome to no purpose That a doctor differeth from a pastor hathe bene shewed that he is inferior vnto him appeareth not onely because the Apostle placeth him after where he dothe moste exactly set downe the order off preaching ministers but also that the giftes required for that office are as hathe bene shewed lesse wherunto may be added the practise off the elder churches which estemed the doctor alwaies vnder him whom they called bishop or Pastor That the elder which gouerneth onely is inferior to the Doctor appeareth bothe in that his giftes be fewer and that the Apostel giueth more honour to him then to the elder That Deacons are vnder those elders for that their charge is to serue the tables onely and therfore but a part off the churche where the elders gouernemeÌ„t is ouer the whole Likewise for that the deacons charge being in thinges perteining to the nourishement off the body muste gyue place to that off the elders whose watche is ouer the sowles Al which the ministery off the Doctor onely excepted which is shut vp commoÌ„ly in the bishop is confirmed by continuall practise off the churche which vppon all occasions off speaking off this ministerie placeth the bishop before the elder and the elder before the deacon and precisely the foresaid Ignarius sheweth that the deacon is vnder the elder thelder vnder the bishop where that thelder which onely gouerneth and not onely he which teacheth is vnderstanded at which hole the D. would creepe out shall be after in proper place declared So appeareth that order in the ministery and diuersitie off degrees are defined off by the word of God and that euen in the Ecclesiasticall ministery ther is inequalitie althowgh all pastors be equall amongeste them selues and withall that order standeth withowt the archbishop or any other deuised ministery Chrysost browght by me is shamfully corrupted and the corruption opened in the former diuis his allegations there owght to be rulers in the church and order to punishe faultes so erksomly repeted are Idle yt being confessed and withall shewed that there is none off those but are doone withowt his ether bishop or Archbishop where hauing no reason he falleth to exhortacion that I would not stand in my conceite but thincke the gouernement off his bishop better then that laid forth by vs if he can compound with the word of God with the reformed churches Apostolical and present with the purest writers ould and newe I with my conceites as he speeaketh will be ready to hould tharchbishops stirup That he affirmeth the forme off gouernement wherin one is aboue all necessary in our commen wealthe althowgh I haue shewed that I greatly allow of it yet that yt is necessary and that the Prince and ParlemeÌ„t can not vpon occasion alter yt especially without breache off the lawe off God which onely maketh the necessitie vve speake of ys an vntrwth apparant to all that haue euer tasted off holy or humane letters And althowghe yt semeth he hath couenanted vvith him self to speake all he supposeth may please yet his knowledge answering not his wâ—ll he is found here to abridge the authoritie off the ciuile powre which he thowght to haue stretched owt and to binde it to that which the lord lefte at the libertie theroff Where he saithe the externall gouernement off the church vnder a Christian magistrat muste be according to the kinde and forme of gouernement vsed in the comon wealth it partly hath aÌ„d further God willing shall appeare that the gouernemeÌ„t of the church debated is certein by the vvord off God and vnchangeable As for his bolt so soone shot and with so smal drafte of reason yt is brokeÌ„ with the vvinde off his owne mouth For where he maketh the externall gouernement throwghe owte his whole booke at the pleasure of the Prince which is his principall hould here he teacheth that yt is not in the princes powre onles she will ether put of or deuide her crowne vvith others to put downe the archbishop for the externall gouernement off the church saith he muste be according to the kinde and forme off gouernement off the comon wealth
word and to hould cōmon consultation that therfore he estemed the whole dioces off London or Prouince off Canterbury where there are many thowsand parishes might conueniently grow into one particular bodie to be gouerned off one Pastor Truly this is but kolde reasoning Where I charged him with vnfaithefull dealing for leauing ovvt that vvvich Caluin noteth that the office off Archbis and Patriarck vvas rarely vsed to couer his vnfaithfullnes he alledgeth the later edition which hathe not that sentence Which is partly answered before but ad this also that euen the noted booke which he followed had thus muche off that sentence Althovvghe it may not be passed by in this disputation There wanted onely this it vvas very rarely vsed and that throwghe the printers fault considering that withowt yt there is no sence nor knot with that before or after Therfore if there had bene any loue of the trwthe in hym meeting with suche a gap he would haue sowght to haue made yt vpp in the later edition His shift Calu referrethe that to the patriarcke and not to the Archbishop because ther was smale cause off exercising his authoritie is onely said and in deede cōtrary to thanthors wordes ād meaning Wordes for that giuing that note off his disputation there which is bothe off the Archbishop and Patriarke yt muste follow by all likelihoode that the note also is of them bothe Against his meaning manifestly for he placing both their offices in propounding matters vnto the Synodes which for their hardnes could not be ended of few and gyuing them nothing to doo more then their fellowes but that it muste follow that the oftenest Synodes wherin the archbishop was president being rare and but twise a yeare his office also was off very rare vse Wherby appeareth that Caluins minde was to shew that the archbishops and Patriarches office endured onely but the time off the Synode which ended he had no autoritie but in commen with other bishops vntill the next synode So that althowgh they were not chosen at euery action yet Caluins iudgement standeth that both those offices were but off rare vse The D. onely trifleth in Hemingius For we affirme degrees off ministrie off the word graunt also that there were Patriarches but denie them to haue bene immediatly after the Apostles which Hemingius doth not as he vntruly saith affirme That that church abolishing the Patriarch and Archbishop kept the distinction betwene the bishop an other ministers off the word which the church browght in is confessed but that it owght not so to be is before declared althowgh the bishops there in respect off the height off ours are but dwarfes His answer to that Hemingius saith that S. Luke 22. putteth a difference betvvene the office off a Magistrat and ministers and that dominion is altogether takē avvay from these is very fonde His reason owt off the Hebr. is before answered so that his vnfaithfull dealing in Hemingius remaineth Yf there be no circunstance in M Fox alledged by the D. which gyue further answer I stand to that before made and refer it to the readers iudgement especially seing to that alledged where M. Fox flatly condemneth the degrees off primates metropolitanes and archbishops as ambicious the D. can not answer In saying he vvent about to corrupt him vvith his praise I doo M. Fox no iniurie yt being no fault to be assaulted but to be ouercome Whether I doo the D. any let the reader iudge The maintenance of the reply to the Bishop off Salisb answer towching certein Articles against the D. Chap. 4. Diuis 1. pag. 422. THat the Bishop is directly against the D. in affirming that there be no Apostles Euangelistes or Prophetes ys manifest his shift wherewith he would accord him self with the bishop is is before bewraied That the taking away off the Apostels Prophetes and Euangelistes hindreth not the perfect nomber off preaching ministers hath bene declared beside that yt is grosse to say that the diuision is not perfect because certein partes of it are not now extant as if the law of deuiding extended not it self to thinges both past and to come He that parteth the church into that before and vnder the Gospell doth he therfore make an euill particion because there is now no church before the Gospell that is vnder or before the law Here the D. leaueth the bishop to his owne defense towching that he affirmed a bishop not conteined in the place to the Ephes The diuision there being giuen as hath beue saied off those ministers onely vvhich vvith gouernement handle the vvord both here and in the fift diuision the D. doth but trifle in the examples off the elder and deacon seing we hould and will God willing shewe them not to haue to doo with the word Wher hereuppon he woulde bring in his archbishop and archdeacon yt is but repetition off that before where he hath āswer Yf there be a preaching elder not cōteined vnder a Pastor seing he maketh a Pastor and Doctor all one onles he fly to his phansie off Apostles c. there is by his saying a preaching ministerie not tawght in the scripture If there be let him shew it Where I gaue the Catechising vnto the Pastor I will haue it ment where there is no Doctor otherwise I haue in the second edition amended that assigning yt as more proper to the D. So that the Doctor being instituted to the Ephes he whom they called Catechist which tawght the groundes off religion ys likewise albeit S. Pa. calleth al māner of preaching Cathechising That publike reading in the church is as solēne a matter as Catechising the youth is a peece off the former phrensie reading is as good as preaching already confuted That a reader hath bene counted necessarie is saied withowt proof and if it were it was falsly counted there being no necessarie ministrie not specified in the scripture And when they were first notwithstanding them the church ministrie was as hath bene shewed deuided into bishops elders and deacons so that they came not then so much as into account of the ministries Yf they be conuenient at any time that there is scripture to warrant them euen as the Sexten that kept the church dore key hath bene shewed That the archbishops archdeacons and our bishops haue no succour by this being supposed the principalest ministeries and therfore such as owght to haue bene commaunded hath bene likewise disputed where thes colewortes are answered That the Deaconship as I take yt is no gouernement but a simple seruice is idly alledged cōtrary to nothing here set downe Yt may seeme against that alledged before where I comprehend it under the ministers which gouerne onely which I did not to set it in the same kinde off gouernement with the elders but for that yt ordering the church money and ouerseing the poore might in a generall signification be so called If the D. can