reason is there to the contrary but that according to the rules of decency the preface and the booke whereunto it is a preface shall be conformable one to the other And yet though this be the very methode and matter good Reader of all this his long tedious preface which I thus brieflie haue laide open before thee the poore silly man the authour thereof seemeth to haue conceiued such a liking of his owne doings therein especially towards the latter ende thereof that gloriously and triumphantly hee breaketh out into wonderful complaints amplifications and exclamations against vs. Alas poore man that hee was thought hee to meete with no reader but that would graunt him all these thinges at the first asking Or thought hee that hee had so cunningly and artificially knit those things together that no man could espy the childish losenes of them From his first generall farre set and yet vnnecessary discourse of the duety of all officers hee so suddenly falleth into the next of the properties of Christes sheepe that it was great maruaile that the man â—ooke no great harme by it But hauing recouered himselfe 〈◊〉 litie speaking belike before his wittes were well come to him â—ee neuer can hit after of any thing to the purpose For not onely all his matter and woordes besides a fewe naked assertions of his of the trueth of certaine points of his religion and falshoode of ours skipping in heere and there â—here is nothing but the circumstances of application altered one of vs might far more aptly and truely haue written against them But as those things sufficiently conuince the man and his preface of grosse folly and vanitie so if we consider but howe he hath wilfully sought to abuse his reader in cyting the ancient father Irenaeus and others to persuade his reader by his authoritie to obey their prelates and traditions we shall as plainely finde in the man palpable impiety For page second he cyteth his fourth booke and forty three chapter to proue vnto vs nowe that wee must obey their Church now speaking vnto vs by their prelates because then Irenaeus tolde the heretiques a thousand and foure hundred yeares agoe and more whom indeede the pastours of the Church that then was continued soundly in the purity of the Apostolique doctrine that they were to obey the pastours of the Church that had succession from the Apostles Which any maÌ„ may see bindeth not nor teacheth vs to do the like to theirs vnlesse they could proue theirs to be such as there Irenaeus speaketh of Likewise whatsoeuer else in this preface of his to like purpose he hath alleadged out of Irenaeus Augustine Chrysostome CypriaÌ„ Hierome or the scriptures theÌ„selues is abused for that which they spake of that pure true Church of Christ and her faithfull ministers that he would drawe his reader to think to be spoken euen of the Church of Rome as it is now and hath beene of late yeares and of her prelates which are in nothing almost like either the Church or ministers that they speake of But this is not all his fault in alleadging this testimonie of Irenaeus thus to confounde the prelates and Church with the true pastours of Christ and his pure Church a thousande fower hundreth yeares agoe whereunto theirs are no more like then darkenesse is to light but that also wilfully the easilier belike to beguyle the simple reader hee concealeth that that immemediatly followeth the former words Which is this Quisâ—câ—â— ostendimus cum episcopatus successione charisma veritatis certum secuÌ„dum placitum patris acceperunt that is which as we haue shewed with the succession of their Bishoppricke according to the will and pleasure of God haue receaued the certaine gifte of trueth and so hee hauing skipt ouer those wordes which hee thought as it should seeme in his conscience would and might be denied not to fit their prelats he goeth on with that that followed these wordes saying Reliquos vero qui absistunt à principal successione quocunquè loco colliguntur suspectos habere tanquam haereticos oportet which is in English but the rest which goe from the principall succession in what place soeuer they be gathered together wee ought to suspect as heretiques Wherein euidently it appeareth he left out the former words staÌ„ding in the author in the midst betwixt the former part of the sentence and the latter here alleadged by him to make the reader beleeue that Irenaeus minde was to teach men simply to obey such prelates without exception as haue ordinarie outward and locall succession downe from the Apostles and that that kinde of succession in place and office is the principall succession that he speaketh of which who so hath not ought by and by to bee suspected of heresy But indeede take al his words together and marke them especially those which craftily he had gelded the sentence of in his quoting of them and it is most cleare that Irenaeus here teacheth obedience onely to such Bishops as succeede the Apostles in the certaine gift of trueth that by principall succession he ment nothing else but succession to the Apostles in that gift of trueth and that therefore he would haue vs to suspect all those to be heretiques that lack succession vnto them in that howsoeuer and wheresoeuer they succeede them else Which is the very cause why according to this rule we think no better of their popish bishops priests then we do what successioÌ„ soeuer otherwise they bragge of for that sure we are that long ago they are gone from this principal succession in trueth This he knew euery one would perceiue if he had faithfully cyted Irenaeus wordes as they lye and therefore hee thought best to shew how he could followe the example of that olde fox Sathan who for his purpose in like maÌ„ner mangled the 91. Psalme Math. 4. It seemeth also that these words quocunque loco colliguÌ„tur in what place soeuer they be gathered together though he recite them in latine he would faine haue smothered for traÌ„slating the rest he omits these doubtles because without any exceptioÌ„ yea euen of Rome it selfe thereby Irenaeus would teach that they ought to be suspected to be heretiques that will not obey those pastours that succeed the Apostles in the gift of truth Which indeede the Bishops of Rome hauing had so little care to doe this great while if this rule of Irenaeus may bee followed they cannot possibly escape this suspition The credit therefore of theÌ„ waying more with the writer of this preface then his owne he thought it was better thus to leese his owne by thus shamefully abusing his reader in prouing this testimony after the popish manner then once to hazard the credit of his holy fathers the popes by right faithfull and honest dealing therewith Howbeit this kinde of dealing of his may giue iust occasion to all that are wise euer hereafter to looke better to the fingers of all such fellowes then vpon their bare
Catholiques that withstood the Arrians in the sight of this Emperour had but a poore visibility to bragge of Yea Piggius your owne man confesseth Hierar lib. 1. cap. 6. that their poison had defiled not a part but almost the whole world in so much that almost al the Bishops not only of the east but also of the West by one meanes or other were blinded and no small time continued this heresie and this is certaine that they bragged then as much of visible succession of the name of the Church and vniuersality as euer since you haue done calling the true Christians Homousians as you doe now Lutherans Zwinglians as appeareth in the writings of those that wrote against them You may see therefore that these weapons or staies are coÌ„mon to you with blasphemous and condemned heretiques These places of Scripture and experiments therefore caused August vpon the 10. Psalm 78. Epist to compare the Church vnto the Moone which besides the monethly waynings suffereth oftentimes ecclipsies And surely vnles we be too too wilfull al these things togither may make vs out of doubt that the Church of God both before Christ since hath ofteÌ„ failed to cary any such outward visible shew in theeies of the world that it is so easie a matter to make at al times demonstration of her Pastours teachers who they were and where they taught as you our aduersaries would beare the world in hand it is And therefore for answere to this Chapter to any reasonable man this is sufficieÌ„t The II. Chapter SAint a Thus you are falne from prouing that you are come to your places by the ordinary calling of such as haue ri htly succeeded one another both in person office trueth of doctrine which is the thing you should haue proued to shew that there hath alway bene and must be a successioÌ„ of Pastours to continue settle meÌ„ in the truth which is another point For though this were grauÌ„ted you yet you haue not therby wun the other Paul followeth this discourse in the fourth Chapter vnto the EphesiaÌ„s where as he doeth declare vnto vs the fruit that doeth proceed of this successioÌ„ of Pastours and of the perseueraÌ„ce of the reasonable sheepe in one kinde of spirituall doctrine called the vnity of faith For he sayeth that God established this order to that ende that wee should not bee like light children a The more is your sinne that haue suffered yourselues to be caried away froÌ„ the truth by the enticements of Antichrist caried away with euery blast of false doctrine through the subtilitie of men their crafty words full of deceit In these wordes you doe see how the Apostle doeth declare vnto vs the counsaile the intentioÌ„ of the holy Ghost b If you had beene constant in this faith wee and you had beene all of one minde and vnles we can â—ustifie our faith to bee euen so grounded as you say we will forsake it and ioine with you but if we caÌ„ then you are to forsake yours to ioine with vs if you will answere the intention of the holie Ghost I meane that we should be constaÌ„t in our faith the which is grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ the word of God interpreted declared vnto vs by the Doctours Pastors that successiuely haue continued in one kinde of faith Catholick religion froÌ„ the first time that it was preached with out turning with euerie winde but rather that we ought to stand firme stable Here is to be noted that wheÌ„ the Apostle doeth tel how he hath left vs pastors doctors to warne vs of the subtletie of false teachers he doth vse a certaine greeke word very apt for this purpose the which hath in English the signification of the c I would not you had forgot this note for it doeth liuely paint out your doctours which by this their skil in cogging and cosening doe make the scriptures to haue a flexible sence alwaies sutable to the practise of your Romish Church how variable so euer that be playing or cogging at dise And euen as he that hath no great skill if he plaie with such a one he wil soone lose his money because the other caÌ„ cast what he will EueÌ„ so if a simple maÌ„ being vnlearned doe chaÌ„ce to talke with such a one as caÌ„ cog or to speake plainelie falsly interprete the Scriptures he may soone be deceaued as we see it daily happeÌ„ to many that play away put in hazard the rest of al their spiritual inheritaÌ„ce I meane the faith which hath bene left to theÌ„ by their fathers froÌ„ age to age since Christs time Thus haue the Arrians the Nestorians diuers other heretikes deceiued manie a man as I will shewe more at large hereafter The II. Chapter IN this second chapter you obserue further out of the 4 to the Ephe. before alleadged that God established a ministery in his Church that we should not be like childreÌ„ caried away with euery blast of vain doctrine thorow the subtlety of meÌ„ their crafty words full of deceit whereupoÌ„ you inferre that thereby God hath taught vs to be constaÌ„t in our faith grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ the word of God interpreted declared vnto vs by the doctors pastors that successiuely haue coÌ„tinued froÌ„ the beginning in the same Who of vs euer either wrote spoke or thought otherwise But herein is your subtlety that you take this stil for grauÌ„ted which indeed is the maine question betwixt vs and for determinatioÌ„ wherof on your side you haue as yet saied nothing that the faith and religion which your Synagogue is in possessioÌ„ of is that faith which you speake of which we constantly deny affirming the faith religion which we professe to be that indeede wherein the Apostle would haue vs constant and setled and which hath alwaies coÌ„tinued in the Church and hath bene taught and iustified out of the word writen by the true pastors thereof in one place or other froÌ„ time to time And therfore herein you haue saied nothing but the we vnderstanding it of our faith and religion maketh as much for vs as for you We grauÌ„t you also that false teachers and wrong interpreters of the Scriptures worthily there may haue their subtlety expressed by a word importing cogging or cosening but then still we adde that your teachers a long time haue bene the meÌ„ that haue vsed and yet doe vse that cogging tricke Which if it would please you once by the souÌ„d rules of interpreting the scriptures to let your interpretations and ours be examined we doubt not but to make most manifest vnto all men quickly The III. Chapter THe place that I haue quoted of the Apostle doth shew how daÌ„gerous a thing it is to fal into the hands of such Coggers of the scriptures likewise how certaine a thing it is a Such interpretation of the doctour we will most willingly follow and if you should you would
must needes be graunted you that your church is aswell the church of Christ as that that was in their times you make our fault and theirs one because we contrary yours which is the church falsely so named whereas they in theirs coÌ„traried the churches doctrine truely so tearmed You must proue therefore your Church now and that which was 1000. yeares ago at least to be al one in doctrine which you can neuer doe before you can proue their fault and ours to be all one Howsoeuer this vse yet you will make of the variety of opinions and the alleadging of the Scriptures by these heretiques that you wil not remooue from your Religion or faith which falsely you call ancient for all the shrill noise of our Gospell Whereunto this onely I reply that if now the diuersity betwixt their dealing and ours herein shewed you as it is you that notwithstanding persist in this minde vpon this ground you therein shall shew your selues to bee ledde rather by will then witte or any sound wisedome But at last you giue ouer wandring any longer so farre abroad for examples to this purpose and you will talke you say but of the sectes and heads of heresies of this present time who all likewise alleadge scripture and condemne one another And therefore hauing reckoned vp Lutherans Anabaptistes Puritanes Protestantes Precisians Zwinglians Caluinistes Caelestes Deistes Triniâ—â—ries you would knowe of vs which of these you should receiue And to make your question the harder to answere you adde saying If we receiue some and not all they that are refused will thinke they haue wrong offered theÌ„ For they haue as good store of scripture well alleadged as the rest and if all should for this cause be receiued then thereupon would followe a Babylonicall confusion This obiection taken froÌ„ the variety of sects and opinions in these daies I haue so answered in answering to your fourth chapter that thereby I haue made it most cleare that though you had as great ground for it as you pretend yet all that variety neither can nor ought to preiudice any thing our Religion And therefore vnto that answere of mine hereunto I must referre the reader both now and hereafter whensoeuer it commeth for his satisfaction yet this here I would haue him further to note that to make the number seeme the greater you haue here reckoned vp them as different Sectes heades of heresies amongst whom either there is full agreement as betwixt them whom you call Caluinists and Zwinglians or but such difference as notwithstanding they agree in the substantiallest and fundamentall points of Religion as the Lutherans Caluinists the Protestants they whom you tearme Puritanes Which differences if they be sufficient with you to make different Sects seuerall heades of heresies then as many seuerall orders as there be amongst you of your religious men and women and as many seuerall sortes of schoolemen as you haue differing amongst themselues in questions of diuinitie so manie seuerall Sectes there are amongst you all which would rise to a marueilous long beadrole And indeede he that considereth well these thinges though hee shall finde you like Sampsons foxes tied togither by the tailes with the thong of the Popes supremacie yet otherwise hee shall and may most easily finde that you are farre more iustly to bee charged to nourish within your Synagogue of Rome multitudes of sects and heades of heresies then we both for that you exceede infinitly in number and matters and for that whereas some of ours to our griefe vnwillingly are tearmed by our enimies Lutherans Caluinists Zwinglians c. you delight and take pleasure in your distinct titles of diuision as to bee called Dominicans FraÌ„ciscans Iesuites c. Secondly there are some of these which you here name as Caelestes Deistes Trinitaries and the Sect of the family of loue wherewith elswhere some of you charge vs who are far liker you then vs and haue rather sprung vp amongst you and of you theÌ„ of vs. And this is certaine that all these our men haue beene more painefull to detect and confute them then euer were yours Our answere therefore to your demande hereupon builded is this though all these alleadge scripture yet neither alleadge they it aswell as we neither is there any remedy but that you must and ought to receaue them for the true meÌ„bers of the Catholique church howsoeuer others alleadge them that alleadge them best soundliest But then you will say you are as farre of as you were in the beginning seeing euery one will staÌ„d vpon this that he and his side alleadge them best and therefore once againe you will reply say that to determine who doeth best alleadge them is a thing so harde that fewe shall be able to finde it out and therefore in the ende you shall be driuen to thinke it necessary that the Pope should be iudge in this case otherwise men shall neuer be at a certainty whom to follow Hereunto I answere that the harder the matter is the more paines men ought to take thereabout seeing to know and finde the trueth standeth them so much vpon secondly I say with S. Paul that when you and all the world haue done what you can there must be heresies amongst meÌ„ that they which are approued amongst theÌ„ may be knowen 1. Cor. 11. Thirdly how hard soeuer it seeme yet by searching of the scriptures examining the allegations interpretatioÌ„s of them by the rules of right interpreting which I before set downe in humility of spirit God will leade theÌ„ that be his how simple soeuer at one time or other by the direction of his spirit to finde out who they be that soundliest haÌ„dle them For he hath promised If we seeke we shall finde and if we knocke it shal be opened vnto vs. Mat. 7.7 And as for the iudgement of the Pope or any one certaine maÌ„ or coÌ„pany of meÌ„ because the Lord in his wisedome foresawe what was in maÌ„ so how prone to erre in this case he hath not appointed vs any such to run vnto for the determining of this matter And therfore it is intollerable presumption for any such to take vpon theÌ„ that the Lord hath made theÌ„ such iudges in this case that they cannot erre The ministry of men conference with men reading of meÌ„s labours vpon matters of Religion such other good helps with an earnest and huÌ„ble inuocation of the name of God for the directioÌ„ of his spirit are to be vsed carefully of euery man as he may in this case But wheÌ„ all commeth to all we see no other but that it is the will pleasure of our God rather to leaue vs thus to be exercised in scearching the scriptures in trauelling by these meanes to finde out the truth to settle our selues therein theÌ„ to send vs for full resolutioÌ„ to any one man or meÌ„ least so we should after be deceiued through the errour
the first doth it follow therefore that your matter is good c No but it followeth that then you may be ashamed to note that as a fault in vs whereof you are first and more guilty I pray doe but consider the verdict that you both giue of your selues of vs. We are according to your sacred gospell Apostolical iudgement no other but poore and simple infidels superstitious Idolaters but coÌ„trariwise you are Apostles Prophets Euangelists the true children of God Seeing then that God hath shewed you so much fauour poured vpon you the bountifull giftes of his grace how haue yee sought so cruellie to d If any of our profession haue doâ—e so we neither commend them nor allow of their maner of dealing you doe of the like in yours reuenge your selues against his expresse commandement Is this the way of reformation to shew your selues as il as we or worse Seeing that the matter falleth out so plainely I pray you be not obstinate giue place vnto the best to reforme the rest for to be worse then you I e Your opinion God be thaÌ„ked is no great preiudice vnto vs. thinke none can be found You my masters that can make such tedious sermons and raile at large against our Popes and Bishops whie doe you passe ouer so lightly the faults of your f We doe not lightly passe oueâ— the faultes of our ministers ministers you set out gloriously the titles of Apostles Prophets Euangelists and extraordinarie messengers of God for your selues as good Godfathers ye now Christen our Popes and Bishops calling them rauening and g In so calling them we caâ—l but a spade a spade a fig a fig. greedie deuouring wolues In this ye do greatly abuse the intellectioÌ„ of the scriptures for if you marke vvell that that our Sauiour doeth saie yee shall finde that yee run farre wide of the text and the similitude of the wolfe doeth full well appertaine vnto your ministrie There he doeth declare the difference that is betwixt the good shepheard and the bad which he doeth call Mercenarium the wolfe * John 10. The good Shepheard is he that doeth hazard venture his life for his flocke the ill Shepheard is he that taketh the milke and the woole froÌ„ the sheepe letteth theÌ„ rome without taking any care to keepe them h And this we finde iâ— hath bene â—f long the very nature and property of yours The wolues seeing theÌ„ rome abroad scattered froÌ„ the flocke doeth deuour all those that are ill kept The good shepheard is our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles and all the good Bishops that did florish in olde time and all the holy Confessours and martyrs that haue liued in the golden age when the bloud of our Sauiour Christ was yet hot boyling in their harts The ill shepheards haue followed after which haue not cared for their sheepe The wolues which are the heretiques seeing this haue scattered the sheepe out of the fold of Christ which is the catholike Church where they had beene borne spiritually that is to say regenerated with the grace of the holy ghost the Sacrament of baptisme to follow the sects of perditioÌ„ If al our shepheards had bene as careful to keepe their flockes as they ought to haue beene your Congregation had neuer beene so strongly builded as it is at this day in France And therefore you offer your Church if it may be so called great wrong when you speake against the abuses of ours i Indeed because your Religion the principal pillers thereof are plants hâ—t the heauenly father planted neuer therefore you are and shall be rooted vp by the rootes for our sinnes haue beene and are the principall foundations of your building And euen as the worme is nourished in the Aposteme with the ill humors euen so you feede of our faultes are nourished with our sinnes your fire burnes with our wood k You must ameÌ„d both your liues and religion or else it will be wide with you I can tell you and if we woulde amend our liues I know how soone your religion would l The gates of hel shal neuer preuaile against ours decay And therfore our Pastours are not wolues but they haue permitted the wolues to deuour their sheepe and so they shall answere for them before the throne of the eternall Iudge m Your sheepherds then by your owne confessioÌ„ haue bene lewde idle and negligent shepeherdes who doeth aduertise them by the Prophet Ezechiel that they shal answere for all the mischiefes that happen vnto their sheepe manie of the vvhich are scabbed and full of diseases and therefore I would haue you to cause some body to choose among yours and ours those that are best to the ende that through this diuision and your aide wee may take the rest I thinke that if any thing condemne vs it wil bee this cause forasmuch as we haue continued in that doctrine which was preached vnto vs at the first as you your selues n Yes that we can and say most truely too cannot denie if you will confesse the trueth The XXXVI Chapter YOu would haue your reader beleeue that we haue no further answere to your former obiection but your example and therefore in this chapter you bring vs in answering onely for our defence that you were the first and that we learned so to doe of you whereunto first you answere that you know who should saie the trueth if you should say the contrary and then supposing that our answere were true you tel vs that our answere will not serue because we should not haue learned so cruelly to reuenge our selues against Gods expresse commandement of you whom we count poore simple infidels and superstitious idolaters But I trust the indifferent reader may see by that which I haue writen that this is not our only answere and that we answering thus if you should say the contrary he now knoweth that it is you and no other that therein should speake contrary to the trueth Indeed we coÌ„fesse that we should not learne of you nor of any other cruelly to seeke to reuenge our selues for the Lord hath forbid vs to reuenge our selues for vengeance is his and he wil doe vengeance Rom. 12.19 And if any of our side haue transgressed this rule we coÌ„mend it not in them neither do we incourage other to follow any such exaÌ„ple but yet withal we tel you and you know it to be most true that such may be the oppression of Gods seruants and the tiranny of their enemies towards them that he may as he hath done extraordinarily stir vp some amongst them to reuenge their quarrels and to deliuer them out of their enemies hands though such extraordinary examples are not to bee drawen into ordinary imitation And though there bee no reason why wee should learne to doe ill of you of whom we account so euill yet there is reason why you
true word of god since the Apostles time there hath bene h I would meÌ„ would could read theÌ„ as you wish for theÌ„ I am sure they shuld find theÌ„ to be far more with vs theÌ„ with you neuer a Christian doctour in the Church for they haue all taught the contrary to your forged gospell as euery man may see that will take the paine but to looke in their workes or to read those places that are quoted by me and diuers others that haue confuted your heresies many a hundred years agone by their authorities Let them then that haue any eies beholde the hazard that yee runne into and so many others throughout the world which followe your opinion i EueÌ„ thus do you with vs If one should come to accuse an other of falsehoode and that before hee bee assured of this matter wherewith hee did seeke to atteinte the defendaunt would not one thinke his matter verie great or his knowledge verie small to run headlong into the danger of that crime which if he could not proue he should be condemned for himselfe What then shall become of you O most simple sheepe which seeke with fained arguments to condemne not one or two k These are but words feare theÌ„ not but seeing the man had nothing else he thought good belike to haue enough of them and those swelling enough but all the Christians and Catholiques that haue beene in this world since the passion of Christ the which haue refused and reproued your doctrine as hereticall haue taught vs this that we hold at this day But now to answere vnto that that was mentioned a little before that which a nuÌ„ber of your flocke haue told me when I haue conferred with theÌ„ which is that l We doe not hold that ignoraâ—ce wil excuse any that dye out of the true faith of Christ and therefore it is likely you tell but a tale the errour of our predecessours was not imputed vnto theÌ„ forasmuch as these good simple people went to worke after the grossest sort thinking to doe well and that as then they did not vnderstand well the trueth which is now brought to light through your gospell I say that in this yee are deceaued more then halfe the valewe of your Religion m You would seeme then belike that your simâ—le and ignoraÌ„t papistâ— haue all beene great and profound claâ— kes for before some of them died they had forgotten more theÌ„ euer you haue learned for all that that you knowe you haue learned it of their bookes or stollen it to saie the trueth interpreting both their workes the scriptures contrary to the trueth of their meaning And although it were so that they had al erred your coloured excuse of simplicity could auaile them nothing for the word of God would accuse them If n I am glad to heare you cite this testimony to pâ—oue that ignorance of the gospell shall not excuse any but why plead you then sometime that ignorance is the mother of deuotion the Gospel saith * 2. Corinth 4. S. Paul had bene hidden it hath beene hiddeÌ„ to those that haue perished the spirits of the which the God of this world hath blinded theÌ„ if that those vnto whom the trueth hath beene hidden haue perished wherefore doeth your excuse serue theÌ„ This being true as it is most like I meane that they haue not erred nor that you onely shal be saued they all condemned To my iudgement our auncestours with al their simplicitie did neuer erre so much as your disciples doe to follow such masters o This brag hath beene vsed so often without proofe that now it is stole and lothsome as condemne that faith that the Catholique church hath taught mainteined these 1500. yeares to mainteine those heresies that haue bene buried in hell many an hundred year agone now are called vp againe by Martin Luther Caluin his fellowes The XXXVIII Chapter THe vanity of the brag wherwith you begin againe this Chapter by that which I haue saied in answering of the former hath appeared I hope sufficieÌ„tly already but whensoeuer it shall please you or any for you to thinke that it will not bee tedious for the Reader to bring vs forth this number of Doctours confessours martyrs that you here boast of and to make it appeare indeede by their owne words or other good euidence that they were liuing dying so on your side as you here pretend I doubt not but one of vs or other will easily make it euident vnto the world that you are far greater in words and shew then you are in deedes and trueth You would haue your reader beleeue that onely to auoide tediousnes to him you haue forborne by their testimonies liuing and dying here to confirme all the rest of your doctrine and all that you doe vse at this day but alas your owne conscience telleth you that indeed not onely the tediousnes of it to your selfe but the impossibility of it altogither drew you to be glad to vse this prety shift piece of cuÌ„ning to salue your credit your causes with him CoÌ„sidering therfore what already hath beene answered to the fathers quoted by you in the former Chapter in whose euidence for those matters belike you durst be boldest what otherwise vpon sundry other occasions in answering of your booke I haue set downe out of theÌ„ directly to proue the contrary to this that you say you could proue out of theÌ„ your question with vpon the supposall of your brag here to be but a trueth you haue inferred put forth whither these doctours confessours martyrs that you talke of be in heauen or hel is childish friuolous needles For you know well enough that there is neuer a doctour confessour or Martyr of any credit and worthie so to be accounted for the Catholique Religion they taught and dyed in but though in some of them we doe not deny there might be found some inclinations towards some things now held by you that yet we holde that forasmuch as not onely they held with vs the foundation and other principall points of Christian Religion wherein you are contrary both vnto them vs but that also the Lord in his mercy towards them kept theÌ„ in the rest froÌ„ the grossenes impiety that you are therein fallen into since that they were and are ours and not yours And therefore we comfortably assure our selues that they holding the foundation and other principall points as they did though they as men builded thereupon some wood hay stubble yet the Lord souÌ„d the meanes by the fire of his spirit and affliction so to descrie the same vnto them to coÌ„sume al that vnsutable building in them ere they went hence that we neede not thorow any such scrupulositie of conscience as you imagine feare to giue our iudgement or opinion of them For wee feare not their being in hell for
ascended vp into heauen and sitteth on the right hande of his father Wherevnto I aunswere that we must heare his voice sounding by the mouth of his e True but there by straight is not ment yours which along time hath beene an impudent harlot Church which is the very true spouse of Iesus Christ QuaÌ„ sanctificauit mundans eam lauacro aquae in verbo vitae whom hee hath sanctified and purified with the bath of water in the worde of life vt exhiberet ipse sibi gloriosam ecclesiam non habentem maculam aut rugam to make it a glorious Church to himselfe without spot or wrinkle Ad Ephesios 5. f Thus you take for granted that your synagogue is this church of of Christ and that we haue departed from the church of Christ both which are most false If we hear the church we hear Christ for as the holy Bishop Martyr Irenaeus writeth in the forty Chapter of his thirde booke Vbi ecclesia ibi spiritus vbi spiritus dei illic ecclesia omnis gratia spiritus autem veritas where the Church is there is the spirit of God where the spirit of God is there is the Church al grace the spirit is truth Wherefore as the same godly father writeth in the forty and three Chapter of his fourth booke we be bounde to be obedient to the Prelates of the Church his qui successionem habent ab Apostolis to them that haue their succession from the Apostles Reliquos verò saieth hee qui absistunt a g This principall succession is succession in truth which you are gone from long agoe principali successione quocunue loco colliguntur suspectos habere quasi haereticos oportet As for all other that goe away from the g Which is in truth that which your synagogue long ago hath done principall succession wee ought to suspect them as heretickes These are Irenaeus wordes in the place nowe alleadged And Christ saieth himselfe Qui vos audit me audit Hee that heareth you heareth mee Wherefore if wee will heare Christ as his father hath commaunded vs Ipsum audite Heare him Matth. 17. then must wee heare the Church h These things are true of the true and pure church of Christ listening to and following the voice of her husband and not otherwise and therefore not of your synagogue The Church is our most holy Mother whom we ought to haue in great reuerence and to commit our selues wholly vnto her to heare her and like obedient children to doe what she biddeth vs. What the Church holdeth in matters of religion that must we holde what the Church prescribeth it is our duetie to followe what the Church forbiddeth that are we bound vnder paine of damnation to auoyde in any wise a Therefore is it that we dare not beleeue your Romish spirit because we trying it by the scriptures finde it contrary to the spirit that was author of them S. Iohn in the fourth Chapter of his first Epistle biddeth vs beware that wee beleeue not euery spirite but to trye the spirites whether they be of God or not Then how can they be of God which goe from the Church S. Augustine in the exposition of this Epistle of S. Iohn tractatu primo writeth thus b This you haue done therefore by his rule howe can you be in Christ Qui ecclesiam relinquit quomodo est in Christo qui in membris Christi non est Quomodo est in Christo qui in corpore Christi non est Hee that leaueth the Church hovv is hee in Christ that is not in the members of Christ how is he in Christ that is not in the body of Christ By the which S. Augustine affirmeth that the Church which is the spouse of Christ is also the misticall body of Christ Christ is the heade of the Church As many therefore as be Christ his sheepe they heare their shepheards voice in the Church They wil not heare the voice of strangers c You should haue exemplified in your owne doctors and theÌ„ had you said well as of Luther Oecolampadius Zuinglius Caluin and like heretikes which for all their gay wordes and crying still Christ and the Ghospel may haue euery one of theÌ„ these verses of Persius in his fift Satyre worthily spoken to him Pelliculam veterem retines fronte politus AstutaÌ„ vapido seruas sub pectore vulpem Thou keepest still thine olde hyde vppon thee and bearing a faire face thou wrappest a wyly foxe vnder thy vaporous brest d euen your popes and doctors for these many yeares Act. 20. These bee they of whome Saint Peter speaketh in the seconde Chapter of his seconde Epistle Magistri mendaces qui introducunt sectas perditionis Lying masters bringing in sectes of perdition and denying the God that bought them Howebeit since it is so as Paul sayeth There wil be alwaies rauening wolues non parcentes gregi not sparing the flocke And amoÌ„g our owne selues wil men arise speaking peruerse things And such is our fraile nature that as the wittie Horace sayeth e And therefore the Romish struÌ„pet holdes out her poyson in a golden Cup. Reu. 17. Decipimur specie recti We be soone deceiued vnder the colour of truth It behoueth vs to followâ— the counsel of our head principal master Iesus Christ which teacheth vs an excellent document of heauenly philosophy saying f And therefore we had neede to take heede of you Attendite vobis à falsis Prophetis take ye heede to your selues beware of false Prophets which come vnto you in vestimentis ouium in sheepes cloathing but inwardlie they are Lupi rapaces Rauening wolues We must I saie beware that we be not deluded and vnder colour of Euangelical varitie bee made to receaue pernitious and damnable heresies as alas the more pittie hath miserably chaunced to our noble Realme of g This is true of EnglaÌ„d in respect of Qu. Maries daies and so theÌ„ truly we might did say vnto you as you here now falsly say vnto vs. Englande vnder colour of bringing vs to truth leading vs await from the truth to the vtter decay of all godlines setting vp of counterâ—aite religion a Euen this is the state of your Church in deed The weede hath nowe overgrowen the corne euill hurtâ—ull and soulequelling weedes of heresie haue ouergrowen oppressed pulâ—d downe to the grounde and vtterly choked the good corne of christian â—eligion and all ecclesiasticall constitutions b Thus we say that iustly to our people in respect of you Al you therefore that haue â—een seduced and taken weeds for wholsome flowers beware least with the â—ench of such rotten weedes yee infect your soule to euerlasting damnatiâ—n The infallible truth is dayly opened vnto you c It doth not at all appeare by the discourse that there is any falshood at all in our Religion The falshoode is mightily
word to trust them any more in their quoting or citing of the fathers But lest we should thinke that this was but a slippe of his by chance that hee was not his craftes-master in this kinde of dealing he hath plaide vs the very like trick againe with this same father pa. 18. where he alleadgeth the fourth chapter of the said Irenaeus third booke to iustify their traditions not warranted by the written word For in the beginning of the saide chapter not fiue lines before the wordes cited by him hee speaking of the scriptures written by the Apostles Euāgelists he saith that they into that rich treasury most fully haue brought all things that belōg to truth so that euery one that will may frō thence take the drink of life And that which he speaketh in the words alleaged by him of following of tradition it is spoken only by way of supposition to shew what course had bene best for the Church whē any questiō should haue arisen if they had not left vs scriptures For his words are these if the Apostles had not left vs scriptures must we not haue followed the order of tradition which they gaue to them to whom they committed churches In which case which is not our case nowe seeing they haue left vs scripture we grant we should haue beene in the deciding of all controuersies that could haue arisen ouerruled by that which they deliuered by word of mouth to such and therefore that being the case no better or readier way for the ending of controuersies should there haue been then to haue recourse to the most ancient Churches wherin they were conuersant and so by their tradition to haue learned the certainty therein But thus by way of supposition Irenaeus speaking of their tradition in the case supposed by him certaine it is that by their tradition he vnderstādeth that soūd form of doctrin which they deliuered by their preaching teaching which thē would should haue been the same forasmuch as they spoke wrot by one spirit that now they haue left vs in writing And therefore euē then the Romish Church should haue been as far to seeke as she is now for hauing any warrant from thence for those things that she holdeth either contrary or besides the word written And that by tradition he meaneth here no other thing it is euident for in the first chapter of that booke he saith plainely Quod tum praeconiauerunt postea per Dei voluntatem nobis tradiderunt in scripturis columnam fundamētum fidei futurum that is that which first they preached after by the will of god they deliuered vnto vs in the scriptures to be the piller and ground of faith And in the third chapter of that book hauing before spoken of the Apostolicke tradition he after sheweth what he meant thereby namely this that god the maker of heauen and earth c as he is described in the olde testament the Apostles haue taught to be the father of our Lord Iesus Christ contrary to the phantasticall franticke dreame of Valentinian so plainely shewing that they that would euen by the scriptures themselues might learne what the Apostolick traditiō was Now what is this for the authorishing the vnwritē traditiōs of the Romish church which are not ōly al beside the scriptures but whereof the most are contrary thereūto But this gentle reader is the right trick of all the crue of these Romanists thus by the ambiguity of words out of the fathers to seek to colour their absurd opinions so er thou be a ware to deceaue thee if thou take not heede As for example to perswade a mā to like of their beggerly vnwritten traditiōs whatsoeuer any father speaketh of traditiō though it be neuer so plaine in the author himselfe that thereby he meaneth nothing lesse then such traditions as theirs yet that must be confidently brought in as fit most pregnant for their purpose Likwise whatsoeuer any father hath said of any sacramētall chāge of the outward elements for that therein their name vse estimation are chāged though the same father in a thousād other places shew that his iudgemēt is that there is no change at all there in substance yet that must be quoted as a flat place for Popish trāsubstantiation And euen so if they find in a father speaking of the Eucharist any mention of a sacrifice as though there were no kind of sacrifice but that which they dream to bee there that must be vrged as a strong place to proue their blasphemous sacrifice for the quick the dead And this iugling with the fathers and cosening of their poore simple readers vse they in al their cōtrouersies But at this time thou must pardō this preface writer this fault because herein he doth but study to bee like him before whose book he hath set this his preface For chapter the fifth he himselfe most grosly committeth this same fault in the detection whereof I haue more at large discouered this lewde dealing of theirs In the meane time let vs not forget that Irenaeus hath taught vs what that church is who those pastours be what those traditiōs are that we must obey be ruled by namely onely that Church that hath the scriptures for the piller groūd of her faith lib. 3. cap. 1. those pastours that succeede the Apostles in truth of doctrine li. 4. cap. 43. those traditiōs which haue good warrant from the scriptures themselues lib. 3. cap. 3. whereof it must needes follow that all the places reasons quoted by him either out of the scriptures or fathers to binde vs to yeeld obedience to their churches ordinances their prelates cōmandements to the points warranted onely by their traditions their Church hauing another foundation of her faith then the worde written namely alwaies their popes will as it hath the commādemēts of their prelates traditions being not only beside but also often most grosly contrary to that word of God writtē as I shal shew in sundry places er I haue done with Albine in Irenaeus iudgemēt ar but so many abusings and corruptings of their holy good meanings And yet thus hauing to no purpose bestowed a great deale of idle paines as one that had said inough to proue that the authority of all the learned fathers the cōmon consēt of all Christiā regions prescriptiō of time were al ful fast of his side he lustily braggeth p. 22. that if their be any weight in any or al these together that his side hath the true gospell the true sence thereof That their Religion is the very Christian Religion their order of ceremonies the right order and that their fasting and praying is according to the scriptures and that therefore their church is the lawfull and true spouse of Christ from which who so seperates himselfe is in state of damnation This thus only said thereupō by and by as though there were no
remedy but that we must needs grant all this to be true he taketh occasion to triumph and to frame a bitter inuectiue against our Religion and liues so concluding his wordy preface with an exhortation to his Reader to forsake vs our Religiō to ioine againe with thē in theirs All which because it is nothing but the vaine malitious wordes of a foolish aduersary without proofe or shadowe of proofe which therefore I am sure the wise Reader will make no reckoning of I might very well let passe with this onely answere that whatsoeuer he hath here said braggingly either in the commendation of his Religion Church or to the disgrace of ours is vtterly false and that I haue plentifully proued it so to be in sundry places of this my answere Howbeit seing this is not only his brag but the brag also a nūber of times of Iohn de Albine in the booke following indeed is in effect the only thing by taking whereof granted most subtily they all their fellowes seeke to beguile their simple readers it shal not be amisse because here first we meete with it least otherwise the Reader should be too ready to suffer his hart to be sorestald with this false principle to the preiudice of the truth somewhat to say to make both the vanity falshood hereof to appeare to euery one First therefore it is worthy the marking that the mā though as hee plainly sheweth hee had here a full purpose at least in wordes to giue as great countenaunce as he could to his cause that yet he seekes to giue it credit but by the testimonie of fathers consent of Christian regions and prescription of time in the meane time omitting that which is to be preferd before all these namely the testimony of the vndoubted word of God reuealed set downe in the scriptures wherein he hath dealt but as the nature of his cause requires which hath no countenance from thence and as the fashion of other of his companiōs in this case is For hereupō it is that there is nothing more cōmon in their discourses then to labour by all meanes they can the disgrace of the written word of god and to establish the credite of a word vnwritten which they count to be the traditions or ordinary practise of the Church of Rome To this ende they bestowe so much paines as they doe at least to make shewe of proofe that the scriptures are so darke and obscure so insufficiēt for the direction of the Church in all matters and of so vveake authority of themselues without the authority and testimonie of the Church to countenance them that without the foresaid vnwritten word no man could either fully or certainly be setled and established in the truth So that herein this is their drift that they indeed being without all sounde warrant out of the canonicall scriptures for those thinges which wee count erroneous in thē they yet may make their followers beleeue that they haue as good ground as need be for them in that they can proue thē by the tradition of the Church which they call the word of god vnwritten and which they hold to be not onely aequal vnto the other that is written but also far more full and certaine for the determining the trueth of all controuersies And therefore Soto contra Brentium Canisius cap. 5. of his Catechisme and Lindan lib. 5. cap. 10. of his panoplie are not ashamed to confesse reckening almost all the pointes in controuersie betwixt them and vs that they haue their ground and warrant from tradition not written in the scriptures And hereupon it is that there is nothing more common with any of them then when wee presse them with this that the opinions for the which we striue with them haue no warrāt in the scripture yea that the scriptures rightly vnderstoode are flatte against them therein to flye to tradition which is the cause that this fellowe him selfe was so busie before to abuse Irenaeus for the countenance of that onely foundation of their Religion For this cause we may doe say of them that iustly by their owne confessiō as Tertullian saide of the hereticks in his time they cannot stand if they be driuen once to determine al their controuersies by the scriptures de Resurrectione Carnis cap. 3. Now as for vs Christian reader for all this lewde bragge of his we appeale to these scriptures of god and onely wee allowe of them as of a most perfect touchstone whereby to trye in all matters of Religion the pure golde from the counterfait crauing no further liking nor allowance in any thing then by them wee are able soundly to proue and confirme that which we say and teach And the ancient holy fathers and so the Christian regions in al ancient prescription of time which are the things that he here brags of as it appeares in all sound monuments of antiquity euer since these scriptures were written for the determining of controuersies in their times haue alwaies taken this course to cōfute confound all aduersaries to the truth As for their owne authority or the authority of any other before them no further credit they craue then as they are foūd to agree with these scriptures otherwise the more that haue couseted the lōger they held the worse This I haue made manifest by plētifull testimony of the ancient fathers thēselues cap. 3.5.23 And therfore whiles he sends vs thus to the fathers Christian regions consent prescription of time he sēds vs but about the bush for when we come to thē they will send vs backe againe to the scriptures But whiles they take this course in seeking rather countenance for their cause any where else then at or by the canonicall scriptures in the iust iudgement of god they plainly bewray themselues to euery simple mā to haue but a bad cause that they so shun the light and refuse the most certaine most indifferent triall of it which questionles is by these scriptures whose neither authority nor indifferecy without blasphemy may once be called in question Indeed I read that whē they were pressed with the authority of these scriptures the Marcionites pretēded for the defence of their heresy their paraclet or cōforters visiōs instructiōs that likewise the Mōtanists did fly to their prophecy the Valētinians to their dreams of their Aeons the Manichees to their fundamētal Epistle the Iewes to their Talmud the Turks to their Alcaron belike lest these should be foūd vnlike these their predecessors they will thus fly from the vndoubted authority of god speaking in the scriptures to the vncertaine and variable authority of man Yet if this were true that he saith that they haue the auncient holy fathers the common consent of all Christian regions pre scriptiō of time of their side it were sōewhat some likelihood it were that things were with thē as he saith I must needs cōfesse
in b But that place you find not in this booke some other place but at this time we must treat of our vocation to answere him and his complices how and by what vertue we exercise our ministry c This I deny that you come to your calling in this sort for neither is there right succession amongst your Bishops and Pastours nor continuance in that trueth which yet you say only neuer proue We are called to this estate according to the ordinary way that is to say by the right succession of Bishops and Pastours and by the coÌ„tinuance of one Catholique faith deriued froÌ„ the Apostles to our daies without the interruption of it vniuersally d That trueth indeede hath alwaies coÌ„tinued and shall by the meanes of faithfull teachers but neither with you nor by meanes of your teachers is at all proued by there places Math. 5. Ephes 4. for in diuers places of the world it hath beene euer cleare and certaine manifestly shining like the light set on the table to giue light to all those of the house and not vnder the bushell to be shadowed with darkenes Saint Paul e Peruse the place you shal finde that though Paul reckon vp there those ministeries which should fully be sufficieÌ„t for the Church yet he once meÌ„tioneth not your gretest Prelacâ—es Howsoeuer therfore it may be as you hold they be necessary and most necessary for the pompe of your Church that so the better she might answere her patterne Apoc 17. yet thereby we may see Christs Church shall may grow to her perfection yet neuer bee acquaâ—nted with them after that he had recited by order the Ecclesiasticall Hierarchie I meane of the Apostles Prophets and EuaÌ„gelists he doeth declare at the last the cause why they were instituted being for the edification of the mistical body of Christ the which is the Catholique Church vntil saieth he that in the vnity of faith we go to meete him He taketh his similitude of many that come from diuerse waies and meete all in one way f Indeede hee plainely there teacheth thaâ— there shall bee alwaies to that ende teachers in he Church but hee saieth not that they shall so succeede one another either in person or place aâ— you would â—eene thereupon to builde For no such line of continuall locall or personall succession from his time to this day can be produced And thus hee meanes that the spiritual edification of the Church ordeined of Bishops Pastours and Doctours shall endure vntill that the Gospell be preached through all nations By the effect of the which Gospell both French Spanish English Greeke Persian Arabian Latines Barbares with many other nations which were too iediâ—â— to name haue met together hauing of great antiquity all one kinde of Catholicke faith by the Apostles and their successours for euer As the some of God before he suffred did attaine arriue to the perfectioÌ„ of his age euen so his misticall body of the Church shall continue in this world vntill it be perfect in his members and that the number of the chosen be accomplished And euen as a materiall building caÌ„not be perfectly atchieued without g We see and heare of many great goodly buildings in the ende perfited in building whereof there haue beene many and sometimes long intermission continuance of workemen and masons euen so the spirituall building of the Church cannot be atchieued without the succession of Biâ—â—ops and Pastours preaching or causing the word of God to be preached which is the very spiritual building the which hath beene euer common and visible in the Church according to the prophecie of Esay h Sap. â—1 say you wel hit the place is in Esay 62. Sap. 61 â—ho meaning to declare the care that God taketh as touching the preâ—eruation of his Church hee did say as it were representing the state of Hierusalem I haue established and ordeyned i But few such haue beene in your time of succession these many yeares watchmen vpon he walles the which shall neuer holde their peace neither day â—or night These watchmen are those that haue annouÌ„ced to vs our salâ—ation They are the trumpets of Iesus Christ which neuer haue left their â—ounding in the true Church of God from the Apostles time vnto this â—resent day AN ANSWERE TO MASTER IOHN de Albines discourse against heresies called and accounted by his frendes A notable discourse to that purpose made by Thomas Sparke Pastour of Blechley in the countie of Buck. .1591 Chapter first CALVIN we esteeme and account of as of a rare singular minister of Christ his writings as they well deserue wee thinke reuerently of and you haue tried them to be of great force power to shake the very grounds and pillars of your Babilonical building but our Patriarch we neither account nor cal him though you in your third word take it and therefore set it downe for graunted that we doe It seemeth you thinke scorne that hee should charge your Priesthoode not to bee of God and so to cal you to an accouÌ„t of your vocatioÌ„ Indeede I caÌ„not blame you that it grieueth you that that should be called into question seeing it is a thing you haue bragged on so long haue gained by at the hands of the blind ignoraÌ„t both al the credit wealth you haue especially seing also that what words soeuer you vse to countenance the matter yet you shall neuer be able to iustifie it Howbeit as though not onely you were able to answere Caluin to the full in this point but also as though there were either some great impiety or vanity at the least in his words you recite them twise admonishing your Reader that they are his wordes Be it that they be so what haue you saied either to argue the least folly in theÌ„ or to iustifie your vocation in such sort as therein he proueth you must or els it cannot be of God First you woulde proue Caluin in these wordes to offer you wrong in that out of the 5 to the Hebr. he gathereth that vnlesse you can proue God to be the authour of your vocatioÌ„ it cannot be of God because the Ciuill law prescribeth that one should proue his right of possession before he demaunde it and that he should restore the spoile before the suit proceede But who seeth not that that which he alleadgeth out of the 5 to the Hebr. doth more iustifie his demauÌ„de that either you must shew that god is the authour of your Priesthoode or els confesse that you are not called of God then anie thing that you haue noted out of the Ciuil law can proue that he offereth you any wrong in calling for this at your hands Because you are an Archdeacon it should seeme that you would faine that men should thinke to the ende you may be iudged the fitter man to execute your office that you haue some skill in the
extraordinarily as he seeth need thereof is and may be such effectuall seede to beget childrē vnto God and so holesome foode to feede thē yea euen vntil they grow to a full age perfectiō in Christ Iesus that though their teachers cānot shew for the defence of their calling who alwaies successiuely in person and place haue gone before them yet euen this trueth of their doctrine doeth proue them and their people to be Apostolique Churches whereas though they could doe the other without this it were nothing And because my aduersary seemeth in this point otherwise to make great reckoning of the testimony of Irenaeus Tertullian and Augustine I will stande to their iudgement in this whither to succeede the Apostles in doctrine be not sufficient without the other locall and personall demonstrable succession and not this without that Irenaeus in his fourth booke and forty three Chapter teacheth vs onely to obey those Elders in the Church which from the Apostles with the succession of their Bishopricks haue receiued Charisma veritatis certum secundum placitum patris that is the certaine gift of trueth according to the pleasure of the father for as for all other whatsoeuer they pretend for he excepteth nothing he there immediatly sheweth that absistunt a principali successione that is they are gone from the principall succession and therefore must be suspected And Tertullian in the very same place de praescriptionibus haereticorum quoted by Albine after in his 9. Chapter immediatly after the words there cited by him wherein he calleth for personall succession hath added these Cōfingant tale aliquid haeretici c. but let heretiques deuise some such thing for after blasphemy what is not lawfull for them saieth hee but though they doe faine some such thing yet it shall nothing preuaile thē For their doctrine compared with the Apostolique doctrine by the diuersity cōtrariety thereof wil pronoūce that it hath neither Apostle nor Apostolique mā to be the authour therof For saith he as the Apostles taught not amōgst themselues contrary things so neither did Apostolique men teach contrary things to those that the Apostles taught After this sort therefore let them be prouoked by those Churches which though they cannot produce either Apostle or Apostolique man to bee the founder thereof in that they were long after planted as dayly there bee tamen in eâdem fide conspirantes non minùs Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae yet they agreeing with thē in one faith are no lesse to be reputed Apostolicke Churches then they that were planted by the Apostles What can be plainer then this to shewe that though our Churches could not satisfie his request in pleading the former succession that yet if they can shewe this that they agree with the Apostles in doctrine that they therefore are far rather Apostolicke then they that can produce the former without this And though Augustine in his 165. epistle and also in his fourth Chapter against the Manichees epistle which they call their foundation remembred by Albine cap. 6. doe there seeme to make great reckoning of personall succession yet when he had shewed of what force that and some other reasons were with him he preferres trueth indeede warranted by the scriptures before them all Wherefore what I haue saied concerning the vanitie of their brag of personall and locall succession either to iustifie theirs or to disgrace our Church or ministrie is sufficientlie proued But all this labour will Albine say I might haue spared for he spake not simplie of succession but expressely of right succession of Bishops pastours and to shew what he ment thereby he expresly added the continuance of one Catholicke faith deriued from the Apostles to our daies without the interruption of it vniuersally at anie time Moreouer I confesse that sundry times after so forcible was the trueth in this point with him that in wordes he confesseth that personall and locall succession without continuance in this trueth is not the thing that he vrgeth and yet for all this this that I haue saied of this point is not needlesse For besides that fewe of his opinion will bee brought to confesse thus much this both in others and in himselfe in sundrie Chapters following maie be obserued that when this confession is made by anie of thē it is wroong frō them much against their wils for their shew of proofes run wholy for the magnifying of personall successiō to be the marke whereby true Churches and the ministers thereof maie vndoubtedly be discerned Againe if in this he spake as hee thinkes why doeth he make so much adoe about the personall and visible succession of Bishops and pastours and neuer ioines this issue with vs to trie out soundly and throughly whither they or we haue this Catholicke and Apostolicke trueth For herein onely lieth all the controuersie betwixt them and vs and this determined the question betwixt vs were quite ended let them once therefore but proue indeed that they are in possession of this soūd trueth and that alwaies downe from the Apostles they haue continued therein if we ioyne not streight with them and repent vs hartely of our departure from them accursed be we Yea if we cannot proue by cōparing their doctrine with that which wee are most sure the Apostles taught to be both diuerse from that and contrary vnto it vnderstanding by their doctrine as wee doe that which is proper to them and wherein we are against them let vs for euer leese our credit and cause Now for the decyding and determining of this great maine cōtrouersie wee appeale to the canonical scriptures which we knowe are most fit and sufficiēt iudges herein whereunto vnles they will deserue the name of lucifugae that is of shunners of the light which for the like cause Tertullian gaue the heretiques of his time de resurrect carnis they will be contented to bring their doctrine as to the touchstone Indeede in Tertullian and Iraeneus time the heretiques as it appeares in their workes for the triall of their opinions fled from this touchstone and when they were vrged herewith they behaued themselues the likest these our aduersaries that euer I saw For Iraeneus in his third booke and second Chapter testifieth thus of them cùm ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem conuertuntur ipsarum quasi non rectè habeant neque sint ex authoritate quia variè sunt dictae quia non possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciunt traditionem that is when they are reproued by the scriptures then they are turned streight into an accusation of them as though they were not right nor were of authority both because they are so set downe as that variably or diuersly they may be taken and because by them the trueth cannot be found out by those that are ignoraunt of tradition This notwithstanding it appeareth both there and elsewhere that he calleth them to this triall
And so doeth Tertullian de resurrectione carnis Cap. 3. saying Auferantur ab haereticis quae cum aethnicis sapiunt vt de scripturis solis suas quaestiones fistant stare non possunt that is let those things be taken from heretiques which they holde with the heathen that onely by the scriptures they may determine their questions and they cannot stand And nothing was more vsuall and familier with Augustine against the heretiques of his time then to call them for the triall of the question both whither he or they were of the true Church also whither of them had the trueth to this way of triall by the scriptures And therefore de vnitate ecclesiae Nolo humanis documentis sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrare I will not make demonstration of the Church by the writings of men but by the diuine oracles saieth he Cap 3. again there also he further addeth pressing the heretiques with whom hee had there to doe sunt libri dominici quoruÌ„ authoritati vtrique consentimus ibi quaeramus ecclesiam ibi discutiamus causaÌ„ nostraÌ„ that is there are certaine bookes of the Lord vnto the authority whereof we both consent there let vs seeke the Church there let vs discusse our cause To the like effect he writeth in the 2 Chapter of that booke and elswhere very often Vnles therfore they wil once bee contented to come to this trial of the controuersies betwixt theÌ„ vs we must needs tel theÌ„ that they are not desirous in earnest euer to haue it appeare which of vs haue the better cause but as men who know in their owne coÌ„science that their cause is bad they labour to maintaine the credit thereof as long as they can by cunning shifts delaies But yet let them assure themselues as long as they shun this trial how cuÌ„ningly colourably soeuer though simple fooles already besotted with superstition bewitched with popish enchantments vpon their bare worde stought bragges that it is nothing but the ancient catholicke faith that they teach may sometimes beleeue theÌ„ that yet withal those that haue any wisdoÌ„ at al by this means they leese quite both the credit of theÌ„selues their cause For faith being as it is not a wauering vncertaine conceyt opinioÌ„ of the thing beleeued but a most certain sure infallible perswasion of the trueth thereof how can any be assured that the doctrine that he beleeues is such as he may soundly firmely rest vpon for vndoubted trueth without euident grouÌ„d thereof out of the writeÌ„ word of the Lord in the canonical scriptures For theÌ„ce onely Peter dare warraÌ„t the sincere milke which caÌ„not deceiue the childreÌ„ of god to be fetched 1. Pet. 2 2. therefore that he would haue theÌ„ to desire as new borne babes doe milk that they may grow vp therby And as for the writings traditioÌ„s of meÌ„ beside hath not doth not experieÌ„ce daily teach that they may not nor caÌ„not chalenge the preeminence prerogatiue alwaies to be free from errour And euery one that is a ChristiaÌ„ hath learned that this prerogatiue al the writers of the canonical scripture had in the writing thereof therein not to haue erred at al. Who therfore caÌ„ be so simple vnles the Lord in his iustice hath blinded him because hee would not see the trueth shyning about him that he should receiue that for the sound catholicke faith that he heares not first froÌ„ point to point proued vnto him so to bee out of this vndoubted certaine word of God the canonical scriptures what shew or colour of proofe soeuer otherwise be made thereof And this Iohn de Albine could not but conceiue yet neuer once going about in this his discourse thus to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce his cause religioÌ„ but as one loth to be brought to this trial he laboureth most earnestly to discourage al meÌ„ froÌ„ appealing vnto it yet almost in euery leafe braggeth and boasteth that both his Church his doctrine and al are souÌ„d catholick Wherin howsoeuer he pleased himselfe in that his vaine any indiffereÌ„t maÌ„ may see he hath rather bewraied the weaknes of his owne cause theÌ„ any way whatsoeuer he haue saied otherwise impaired the credit of ours But how vainly hee hath swet euen to the tyring of himselfe his reader about this point in many chapters That by the scriptures controuersies are not in the church to be tried determined wheÌ„ I come vnto that place I shal god willing shew more fully In the meane time Iohn de Albine to turne my speech to you I hauing thus examined your answere to our demand how you come to your prelacies and offices and hauing found the weaknes and vntruethes thereof such as that your calling or coÌ„ming thereunto can claime no more credit thereby theÌ„ the calling coÌ„ming to their offices amongst the ArriaÌ„s Greekes whoÌ„ you count heretiques and scismatiques caÌ„ doe because they caÌ„ could say as much and that as truly for theirs as you haue here said for yours let vs now proceed to the examinatioÌ„ of the places of scripture in this Chapter quoted by you vrged as you thought stroÌ„gly to your purpose By the Mat. 5. Ye are the light of the world c. by christ spokeÌ„ properly to his Apostles you would seem to proue that therfore right successioÌ„ of Bishops pastors in the Apostolique truth in al ages in diuers partes of the world hath ben euer cleare shining like a light set on a table by that Eph. 4. Esa 62. with your book quoteth Sap. 61. very wisely you would infer that not oÌ„ly alwaies vntil Christs body coÌ„e to ful perfectioÌ„ there should be doctors pastors in the Church to teach the truth which is the most that by those places caÌ„ be proued but also that they and their coÌ„gregatioÌ„s haue euer ben known visible therby doubtles meaning so visible as the rest of your side doe wheÌ„ to this end they alleage these or the like places as that froÌ„ time to time in al ages meÌ„ may be able to naÌ„e theÌ„ and their places WheruÌ„to I answere that you stretch these places and the words therin further theÌ„ their natiue sence wil bear For the first of these is properly to be vnderstood of Christs Apostles onely who in respect of their ministery other graces of the spirit that should be powred bestowed vpoÌ„ theÌ„ to beutifie streÌ„gtheÌ„ their extraordinary ministery withall are there by Christ compâ—â—â—â—â— the light of the world to a lighted candle set vpon a candlesticke not put vnder a bushell lightning all in the house and to a city 〈◊〉 on a hil which could not bee bid all which afterward they in the â—â—ecution of their Apostleship and holy conuersation proued to be â—â—â—tles truely and iustly giuen them This was no prophesie as yoâ— would make it that their should be vntill the second comming 〈◊〉 Christ a visible and
Catholique faith Catholique Bishops succeeding one another When as indeede and trueth it is as impossible for you to proue that you haue any iust right to anie of these as it was for those heretiques But howsoeuer you make some beleeue you haue all these yet I say vnto you with Saint August De vnitate Ecclesiae against the Epistle of Petilian chap. 10. That euen Catholique Bishops are not to bee consented vnto if that anie where they be deceiued in thinking anie thing contrarie to the Canonicall Scriptures And therefore when all commeth to all and when otherwise you haue runne your selues out of breath in conclusion will you will you by these Canonicall Scriptures must it bee determined whither you haue anie right to anie of these or no. For if you appeale from them as indeede you doe to the Church and fathers they will sende you backe againe for the triall whither that which they speake bee true or no onelie to the Scriptures as it maie appeare vnto you not onelie by this one place which I haue cyted out of Augustine alreadie but also by a number such like places both to bee founde in him else where and also in others For you maie reade in the first booke and seuenth Chapter of Theodoret that when Constantine sawe great controuersies in the Church in the Nicene councell and perceaued that euerie seuerall companie bragged of the trueth and so also of the Church and fathers to bee on their side to ende all those controuersies he saied Ex diuinitus inspiratis oraculis quaeramus solutionem eorum quae proponuntur that is out of the oracles that are come by diuine inspiration thereby meaning the Canonicall Scriptures let vs seeke the determination of those thinges that are propounded and so they did And as Constantine the Emperour was of this minde so it appeareth that Athanasius was of the same For to Serap hee saieth Solum exsacris literis condiscas meaning that the holie Ghost is God sufficiunt enim documenta quae in illis reperias Thou maiest learne it onelie out of the holie Scriptures for the documents or lessons which thou maiest finde in them are sufficient And Origen vpon the 16. to the Romanes in his tenth booke agreeing herein with these saieth that onely by the holie Scriptures the difference of trueth from errour in the examination thereof is to bee discerned And yet more plainely the same Origen in his first Homilie vpon Ieremie writeth of necessitie wee must call for the testimonie of the Scriptures for our senses and declarations without them as witnesses haue no credit Well therefore saied Augustine de naturâ gratiâ cap. 61. Onelie to the holy Scriptures doe I owe my consent without refusall And therefore franckely hee telleth Hierome in his nineteenth Epistle that hee had learned to yeelde that honour onely to the Canonicall Scriptures to thinke that the authours thereof therein neuer erred Where he plainly sheweth vs by his example how we should reade his writings or the writings of any other father namely beleeuing that which they wrote no further then we see it by scripture confirmed or by probable argument not dissenting from the trueth And the like he teacheth yet more plainelie in his 111. 112. Epistles to Fortunatus and Paulinus in the proeme of the third booke of the Trinity Wherefore with the same Augustine I confidently say and write whither of Christ or of his Church or of any thing that appertaineth to our faith and life I will not say wee that are not to bee compared with him that saied though wee but as hee addeth though an Angell from Heauen shall preach any thing besides that yee haue receaued marke hee saieth not contrarie but besides in the legall and Euangelicall scriptures let him be accursed in his third booke against Petilian cap. 6. Yea your owne Vincentius in the very place quoted by you denyeth not but taketh it for graunted that the scriptures of themselues alone are sufficient for all things yea and more then sufficient Whereupon it is euident that Vincentius by the rule line and true sence of the Catholique Church that there he speaketh of vnderstandeth onely such a sence or line as agreeth best with the scriptures themselues and the right rules of the interpreting of them wherof more afterwards In the meane time howsoeuer Vincentius his meaning was Augustine an ancienter father more famous somewhat then he speaking of the rule of faith that alwaies in interpreting of the scriptures men must haue an eie vnto and be ruled by saith that it is euen that which is taught in plainer places of the scripture de doctrinâ Christia lib 3. cap. 2. de trini lib. 1. cap. 2. 4. Yea in the same Augustine de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 6. distrinc 37. c. Relatum we may reade noted out of ClemeÌ„t that the church is not to receaue any fence for the true seÌ„ce of the scriptures which caÌ„not be proued so to be out of the scriptures theÌ„selues And therefore all interpretation of scripture newe or ancient deliuered by the fathers in former time or receiued of their children of this later age must and ought according to this rule and line bee iudged catholique or not The IIII. Chapter Cant. 1. WHose discourse doeth make me remeÌ„ber the complaint that the soule doeth make vnto her Spouse Iesus Christ beeing both represented by Salomon and his legitimate spouse I pray thee saith she O my deare frend tell mee in what place thou doest lie and rest at noâ—â— daies for I would be very glad and desirous to follow the flockes of thy felowes The which is as much to say as if she meant thus I see many shepheardes in these mountaines which haue great abundance of sheepe I see those of the Roman Church I see Donatistes I see Nouatians or to speake of our time I see one flocke follow Luther another follow a The Caluenists Zuinglians and Sacramentaries are commonly amongst you taken for one yet here that the variety of opinions may seeme the greater you reckon them vp as three distinct sorts Zuinglius another follow Caluin another the Anabaptists another the SacrameÌ„taries so forth diuers others of whoÌ„ wheÌ„ I demauÌ„d particulerly Whose is this flocke they do al answer me It is of Christ euery 〈◊〉 saieth this is the catholicke Church euery one doeth say that he is his fellow that is to say as touching the guiding of his flocke Now it is not possible that they doe al teach the trueth considering how they varie among theÌ„selues therefore I doe desire thee to tell me where thou doest rest thy selfe at noone daies That is as much to say teach me which is the true Catholicke Church which doeth celebrate the true misterie of the Crosse which is the place where thou wast nailed at noone daies beeing nailed both handes and feete Heare now the answere of Iesus Christ If thou doest not know the place
will shal bee founde flockes of goates and not of sheepe and foxes and wolues seeking the destruction of the sheepe rather then true sheepeheardes But you would make the Reader beleeue that Salomon in this place by you cyted out of the first of the Canticles doeth teach the true Church safelie alwaies to pitch her tentes and to feede by the visible and apparent succession of pastours which from age to age can leade her without leauing her by the waie euen to Christes time Which you saie yours can doe and ours cannot boldlie aduouching that vnlesse we be not ashamed to lie wee cannot shew where our Church or Religion was an hundreth yeares agoe and that wee cannot denie but Luther began to preach our new Gospell in the yeare 1517. And thus againe partlie by this note of visible succession of pastours and partly by vpbrayding vs with certaine differences of opinions amongst vs about the maner of Christes presence and diuerse and sundrie fantasticall heresies that of late daies haue sprung vp and beene reuiued you labour to iustifie your Synagogue of Rome and to condemne our Church of Christ which thinges you harpe vpon very much and often afterwarde in this your treatise Wherefore to aunswere you to all these thinges here once for all first I tell you you offer violence to Salomons wordes in making them to containe a prophesie of any such perpetuall and visible succession of flockes and pastours in the possession of one trueth as you inferre thereupon and make it the speciall marke and note to discerne Christes true Church from all that falsely bee so called For then it should bee contrarie to that view of the state of Christes true Church which I haue set downe vnto you and prooued by infallible arguments in the first Chapter which may not be seâ—ing the scripture alwaies agreeth with it selfe And yet the Church may haue good vse of Salomons aduise giuen her here in her greatest ruins and interruptions of her ordinarie and visible forme and beautie in looking to the visible flockes and sheepheardes that were before that God so chastised her as in Achaz time in looking to and following those that were in Dauids and Salomons timeâ— in Manasses and Ammons time in looking to and following those in Ezechiaths Iehosaphats times in the time of the captiuity in looking to following those that were in Iosiahs time And yet doe not so take me as though I thought that either Christes true Church or the true sheepheards thereof did at anie time vtterâ—â— cease or faile for I am perswaded they neuer did nor shall But this onelie is the thing that I now say that though this place of the Canticles doeth shewe that in no time there is any true flockâ— of Christ but there hath gone before a flocke and shepheardes which that may safely followe euen to the finding of Christ yet it proueth not that there hath alwaies immediately gone before it from time to time some visible so apparent flockes and shepheards one immediately succeeding another as that the names of the sheepe and shepheardes are alwaies famously knowen and therefore easily to be reckoned vp of euery one which are the thinges which you seeme to inferre hereof and therefore require of vs to bee done or else you would faine make the Reader beleeue that wee neither are the Church haue the trueth nor true right ministers thereof Wherein many waies you offer vs great wrong for after you your selfe distrusting belike that in any seate or line of Bishops without interruption this can be performed speaking of your line of Popes whereof all the sort of you bragge in this case most cap. 8. to vpholde and drawe along your right succession you tell vs flatly you meane not when you speak thereof onely of them but of al Bishops elswhere that they may continue it in the interruptions of that liue somewhere else and yet at our handes you require vnder the penalty aforesaied that we should froÌ„ age to age and from person to person orderly succeeding one another deduce ours For when we say it was continued alwaies by some in some other places when wee can no longer finde it in your Romish see whereinto by little and little you haue craftily â—rept and wherein for many hundred yeares before men of our Church and Religion sate and taught you reiect that our answere as a shift Another wrong that you offer vs herein is this that your Antichristian Synagogue hauing according to the prophesie Reuel 12. persecuted our flocke into the wildernes with the sheepherdes thereof you require that wee should euen in respect of such decaied distressed times of the church giue you as euident demonstration of our flockes and sheepheardes as may bee giuen thereof in the florishing and peaceable state of the same For there is no reason in requiring that in the decaies and ruines of the Church which accompanieth alwaies the Church in her prosperous and standing estate Besides herein you offer vs the greater wrong in that notwithstanding it be graunted of vs that both perpetuall continuance of the Catholique faith and also some kinde of succession therefore of teachers be necessary alwaies for the continuation of the Church yet you cannot but knowe especially seing that prophesie before named that also 2. Thes 2. must bee fulfilled of the church of Christ in respect of some time of her soiourning here on earth that thereupon it followeth not that therefore their succession is visible and demonstrable alwaies in your sence or else wee must yeelde that there were none such For who is so simple but hee is resolued that all men now aliue come by lineall succession from some of Adams children and yet fewe or none can bee found that can rightlie no not the skilfullest harrold of them all deduce their pedagree from thence Must it therefore followe that there hath not alwaies beene for all that a certaine lineall descent if you should thus inferre euery one might laugh at your follie For long processe of time distance of place betwixt some of our progenitours and vs lacke of Cronicles or the neglect of such genealogyes in them alterations of names and countries and diuerse such like things maketh the one not onely hard but for the most part impossible and yet no man doubteth of the certainty of the other Euen so in this our present question most certaine it is there haue alwaies beene both flockes sheepherdes to continue both the trueth Christes church For that wee graunt is necessarie but yet through continuance of time force of your Antichristian persecution distance perhaps of the flockes and sheepeheards in place from vs that God in some ages vnder your tyranny hath vsed to continue his church by and lacke of faithfull and carefull writers to cronicle such matters especially your wouluish and foxy sheepheardes beeing alwaies watchfull and mindefull to their vttermost either to blot out their memories quite in not
neuer hauing proued either of these nor yet being able to doe it you should cōclude that your prescription against our doctrine which you call newe at your pleasure though indeede it be most ancient witnesse the olde testament and the newe much rather ought to take place then his in his time against heretiques that then taught diuerse basphemous heresies directly against the scriptures You say our Religion hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeares or at least if any body sought to publish it he was condemned as a false pernitious heretique But you doe but say thus you proue it not nor euer shall For it was both heard and knowen many 100. yeares before yours was hatched and if euery one were so condemned that taught it then was Christ and his Apostles so condemned For vnlesse by scriptures we can proue ours to be the same that theirs was wee aske no fauour at your hands And as long as we can doe so the more we and our predecessours haue beene condemned by you the more we knowe we haue beene blessed of God Now whereas you say in this Chapter further that Irenaeus did withstand heretiques by the traditions of the Apostles adding your glosse that is to say by doctrine not writen but deliuered from hand to hand and so receiued from age to age frō the Apostles to that time therein through the ambiguity of the word Tradition craftsly you seeke to deceiue your simple reader and indeede you giue a glosse that corrupteeh the text For let that place of Irenaeus in his third booke and second Chapter be perused and that also which followeth in the third Chapter of the same booke though either you or the Printer mistaking it send vs to the fifth Chapter where the wordes are not which you cite and most euidently it shall bee proued that though Irenaeus haue there the words by you cited yet by the traditiōs of the Apostles which he speaketh of there he meaneth no doctrine nor points of doctrine as you doe vsually by that word contrary or besides that which was also taught in the word writen For the question was of God the father of our Lord Iesus Christ which Valētinian Marcion denied against whō he there sheweth that he fought first with the scriptures wherewith when they were vrged he saith they are turned streight into an accusation of the scriptures as though they were not right had not authority might diuersly be takē saying further that trueth could not be found of them by those that are ignorant of traditiō For the trueth was not deliuered by them but by liuely voice that therefore Paul saied we speake wisedome amongst them that are perfect not the wisedōe of this world And this wisdome to euery one of them saieth he is that which he himselfe hath deuised Of which heretiques their wordes yours when you are called to the touchstone of the scriptures are so like vndoubtedly you haue learned to plead against the scriptures for your vnwritten traditions Now when thus he had shewed how the heretiques in his time shunned triall by the scriptures and appealed to tradition he goeth on and sheweth that when he was contented to come to the traditiō of the Apostles kept obserued in the church downe from the Apostles to those times by succession of pastours then they resisted tradition also saying that they were wiser then either those pastours or the Apostles themselues and so indeede neither by the scriptures nor yet by making demonstration vnto them that the same doctrine taught in the scripture was also deliuered by liuely voice first by the Apostles and so receiued from age to age and continued in by those pastors of whose successiō he speaketh could stop their mouthes And thus any mā of meane capacity may perceiue that in these places Irenaeus his drift only is to shew the heretiques that the doctrine which he taught concerning God the father of our Lord Iesus Christ first was warranted by the Apostles writings and then also taught by them by liuely voice and so deliuered and continued from hand to hand amongst the faithfull pastours succeeding one another euen vnto that time And that he calleth this the tradition of the Apostles and not as you falsly expound him doctrine vnwriten beside or contrary to that which is writen as the Popish traditions you striue for bee if you had beene disposed you might haue learned in the 1. Chapter of the same booke where he saieth That which first they preached after by the wil of god tradiderunt nobis they deliuered vs in writing to be the foundation and piller of our faith And indeede it is an vsuall thing with the fathers of the primitiue Church often by the tradition of the Apostles to vnderstand the very same doctrine which is conteined in their writings Herein therefore so likewise in all other points in controuersy betwixt vs it is a cōmon tricke with you papists to vrge the fathers wordes quite contrary to their true meaning But because you first and namely bring in Irenaeus for your vnwriten traditions which is the window indeede that you would haue faine left open vnto you for then thereby you hope you may thrust in and vpon the Church what you list and so countenance thereby your Antichristian doctrine when all other shifts faile let vs see whither this cannot yet further be made manifest out of him He as Eusebius reporteth Hist Eccles lib. 4. cap. 14. saied that Polycarpe taught that one and sole trueth which he had learned of the Apostles quae Ecclesia tradit which the Church deliuereth forth Where of necessity by those things which the Church deliuereth by tradition that he there speaketh of you may not vnderstand any other but those which haue warrant from the word writen and in no case those things that are besides that or cōtrary thereunto for then hee would not haue called that which Polycarpe preached the one and sole trueth for questionles those things are true that are conteined in the scriptures And this clearely appeareth if you marke the wordes as they are in Irenaeus himselfe in his 5. booke 20. cap. that Eusebius hath relation vnto which are these Polycarpe did mention or teach those thinges which he had heard of the Apostles that is all things agreeable to the scriptures Againe the same Irenaeus in his 3. booke and 3. cap. which is one of the Chapters by you before alleadged saieth that vnder Clement the Church of Rome wrought to the Corinthians shewing them quam traditionem what tradition of late they had receiued of the Apostles that is to say that God the father almighty and so forth as is expressed in Moyses is the father of our Lord Iesus Christ And that he is so taught to bee of the Churches saieth hee they that will learne may by the Scriptures and so they may vnderstand the Apostolique tradition of the Church Where it is most cleare that he telleth vs himselfe
pretend you would yeelde vnto them in this point and so spare much labour that you bestowe to get credit to your traditions vnwriten Which if you would once be brought vnto we should quickly by the sole and sufficient authority of the scriptures haue a faire hand of you Which you espying whatsoeuer otherwise you would seeme to account of the fathers to bleare the eies of the simple in this they shall keepe their iudgement to themselues for you like it not So that this and such your like dealing with them caused one once to tell you that the fathers are vnto you as counters in the handes of him that casteth an account according to whose will and pleasure sometimes one and the selfesame counter standeth for an ob that stoode immediately before for a pound or more So with you when it pleaseth you an ancient fathers testimony is of great weight and when it pleaseth you againe 20. of their testimonies are nothing Howbeit I hope the indifferent reader by these testimonies doeth will perceiue that you wonderfully seeke to abuse Gods people when yet you would perswade them at anie time that the ancient fathers are fauourers and patrons of your vnwriten traditions And I trust this may serue to make it sufficiently appeare that in the iudgement of these ancient fathers your Andradius may be ashamed to write as he hath scripto suo aedito tempore Tridentini coÌ„cilii That the greatest part of Catholicke Religion is left vnto the traditions of the church not writen and that your Lyndan was extreame mad or very drunke when he wrote It is most extreame madnes to thinke that the whole and entire body of Euangelicall doctrine is to be searched out of the Apostolique letters writen with inke out of the litle booke of the new testament Panopl lib. 1. cap. 22. But thus to make vnwriten traditions sometime equall sometime superiour in authority to the canonical scripture that vpoÌ„ this ground that al trueth is not sufficieÌ„tly taught therein you haue learned of the Encratites Manichees and of the Montanists Valentinians and others as it appeares in them that wrote against them And yet O good God what a stir now of late this Andradius Lyndan other such your great champions haue made what cost they haue bestowed to drawe men from that estimation that these fathers had of the authority and sufficiencie of the canonicall scriptures in making large treatises and discourses to shew that the authority therof depends of the testimony and authority of the church that they are not sufficient no not halfe sufficient for the direction of the church either for Religion or conuersation and that they are obscure hard to be vnderstoode all vpon this occasion that will they nil they they are driuen to perceaue that their opinions wherein we differ from them cannot any longer bee defended by the scriptures for al their sophistrie cunning and that therefore they see they must maintaine the credit of theÌ„ by the authority of the church her vnwriten traditions which they may say to be what they lift or that else they must be driuen to throw vs the bucklers and to run out of the field But you doe fouly deceiue your selues if you thinke in this great light that men espy not that this is a shamefull shift and which argueth that your cause is euen giuing vp the ghost that you caÌ„ hold out no longer vnles it be by preferring the authority of the church the wife before Christ the husband by giuing her your commission to sit as iudge ouer her husbands word to adde there unto and take therefrom how what seemeth good vnto her And your fault herein is the more intollerable because by the church you vnderstand alwaies your popish Synagogue that now is For euen children may see that you are very farre driuen when there is no other remedy but you must thus open your mouthes and prepare your pens to disgrace his writen word which all meÌ„ know to be his word indeed without question for the gracing countenancing in this sort of that which though you call his worde you are neuer able to proue to be so And for this who seeth not that we may iustly say of you as Tertull Apolog. 5. saied of the heathen in his time Apud vos de humano arbitratu pensitatur diuinitas nisi homini Deus placuerit Deus non erit homo iaÌ„ Deo propitius esse debebit that is with you the godhead is esteemed of as man shall thinke good vnles God please man he shall not be God man now must be good to God Howsoeuer you are ashamed thus grosly with these prophane pagans to speake yet it is euident in that you still say write that the writen word of God is inferiour in authority to the church hath the canonical credit from thence that the sence thereof is must be whatsoeuer your Bishop of Rome for the time being doeth define determine so to be relying stil vpon vnwriten traditions bearing men in hand that they are as well the word of God as the canonical scriptures as you doe al meÌ„ whoÌ„ your enchantmeÌ„ts haue not bewitched made blind may see that in effect you are as grosse as they of whom these words were truely writen This once we knowe to be his word which wee finde set downe in the Canonicall scriptures we are sure this was writen by the direction of Gods Spirit for the information of the Church And we cannot be ignorant but that this Spirit of God foresawe what dangerous heretiques there would bee which if they were not preuented by leauing the word of God fully in writing vnder the pretence of vnwriten traditions would bring in damnable heresies And therefore seeing it is euident vnto vs that he in these writings begaÌ„ to leaue instruction vnto vs to settle vs in the certaine trueth we know he could go thorow with it because he is God the fountain authour of all wisedome trueth are sure that he was willing because he perfectly loued the church by Christs promise by the ministry of the Apostles was to leade it into al trueth we must needes thinke it flat blasphemy to think that the writeÌ„ word of God is any way vnsufficieÌ„t for the full direction of the Church in all matters And therefore howsoeuer you please your Sects in this deuise of yours in feighting thus for the traditions of the Church thinke not to the contrarie but any man of meane iudgement will discrie both your vâ—â—â—tie and impiety therein by making this reason in his owne minde vnto himselfe The spirit of God in the writers of the Scriptures sawe it good and necessary to leaue the worde of God for the full direction of the Church in all matters writen by that is done and writen it is cleare hee tooke it in hand and to take it in hand
and not to perfect it is to leaue the Church without a perfect touchstone to trie all doctrines by and argueth that it was either because hee could not or would not perfect it whereof the one robbeth him of his almighty power and infinite knowledge the other of the perfection of loue and faithfulnesse towards the churchâ— therefore most certainely in the writen worde there is left a full and perfect direction for the Church and consequently those vnwriten traditions that some striue for are superfluous Thus you haue your answere to this Chapter The VI. Chapter SAint Augustine in his Epistle a You should say 165. f r there are but 204. epistles in all 365. about the like matter doth set forth all the Popes by order which haue beene from S. Peters time vntill Anastasius which was Pope in his time and by his continuall succession he doeth proue b By the same argument we disproue popery because none of them that hee reckoÌ„s vp there was of the Romish religion that now is that the doctrine of the Donatists is heretical because that none of those Popes which hee did recite nor no part of the Church did receiue it I praie you may not wee saie the like by the c No not by theÌ„ truely whom you call Caluinistes Caluinists and other heretiques The saied S. Augustine in the Epistle that d It seemes you are a learned maÌ„ For Augustine wrote against an epistle so called he calleth not his so The Epithet RomaÌ„ you adde the words al and continual for he speaketh but of succession to his time and yet there he saieth that oâ—â—â—e trueth is to be preferred before all these he doeth call Epistola fundamenti cap. 4. doeth write the reasons that did keepe him vnder the obedience of the Catholicke Roman Church And among other he doeth alleadge the common consent of all nations the continuall succession of Bishops e This sheweth your great ignorance or negligence for of thâ—â— argument Augustine wrote two bookes and in euery booke many chapters there be but this is common with you the more to trouble your reader to send him to whole bookes and beside sometimes to set downe your quotations as though the authour had wrote but one when he wrote mo of that argumeÌ„t or as though he had wrote moe when he had writen but one And in his booke which he made against the aduersarie of the olde and newe lawe he doeth name the succession of the Bishops as most certaine to answere to that that wee saied before of S. * Ephes 1. Paul f You write Ephes 1. for Ephes 4. I mean that he would not haue vs to be wauering and doubtfull in our doctrine but that we should be firme and stable the which stablenesse is obtained by the knowledge and intelligence of the Scriptures according to the traditions of the Church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops f It continued so to Augustines time that is three or foure hundreth yeares so ergo so a thousand fiue hundreth yeares and more it should so continue the argumeÌ„t followeth not The Church saieth S. Augustine from the Apostles time hath continued through the certaine succession of the Bishops vntill our daies The VI. Chapter IN this 6. Chapter you cite three places though some of them wroÌ„g quoted out of Augustine whereby indeed it appeareth that as Irenaeus did obiect succession euen so did he to confute the heretiques of his time that taught things contrary to the scriptures but as I haue saied vnto you concerning Irenaeus so doe I concerning him You must remeÌ„ber that Augustine liued wrote within 400. yeares after Christ vnto whose time the Bishops pastours whose succession he produceth had continued at least sound in the fundamentall pointes of Christian Religion from which you your predecessours fell away long ago therefore that which he might herein safely and to good purpose doe you cannot doe without perill to an ill ende Againe you must be told that as Irenaeus was not so neither was he in thus doing a Prophet to shew that to the worldes ende it would be safe thus to doe And lastly I would haue both you and your reader to remember that it is not bare personal succession that Augustine here maketh such reckoning of but that wheÌ„ it was ioyned also with succession of trueth of doctrine as it was in his time with them of whose successioÌ„ he speaketh and is not now with you and them of whose succession you brag so much Which three things considered whatsoeuer things further by you or any of your fellowes are alleadged to this purpose out of TertulliaÌ„ Cyprian or Epiphanius which you might haue as well alleadged as Irenaeus or Augustine be answered For they all of them liued within 500. yeares after Christ when as yet the state of the church stood in good tearmes in comparison that yours doeth and they all spoke of succession of persons succeeding also one another in the Apostolicke trueth and they spake but for their owne times they prophecied not that so it would be alwaies And yet thus it is your fashioÌ„ to beguile the simple that whatsoeuer you reade 1000. yeares ago spoken in commendation of the Church of Rome that then was the Catholicke church or Catholicke faith that you would beare them in hand is spoken of your Romish church and Religion now when as yours compared with those times hath no similitude with the Church of Christ then in a great number of weighty points But for the better satisfying of the reader indeede S. August what account soeuer either in these places here recited by you or else where hee seemeth to make of personall succession or of any such outward thing in the church made more account of sole trueth taught only by the canonical Scriptures then of all other things besides For euen in in his 165. epistle which is the epistle as it should seeme which you meant though you quote the 365. which is more by an hundred one then there are in all after he saieth we presume not so much of these as of the scriptures And in the second place by you here cited out of him which ignoraÌ„tly you say he calleth Epistola fundameÌ„ti wheras he calleth none of his epistles so but writes against an epistle of the Manichees which they so called one book in the later ende of the fourth Chapter whereof after hee had reckoned vp the thinges which did hold him in the bosome of the Catholicke church and might likewise hold any beleeuer therein though trueth as yet did not most manifestly shew her selfe he addeth by by but with you speaking to the Manichees sola personat veritatis pollicitatio c. onely promise of trueth rings which truely if it bee shewed to bee on your side so manifest that it cannot be called into doubt praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in
Catholicâ teneor that is is to bee preferred before all those thinges whereby otherwise I am held in the Catholicke Church The third place likewise which you alleadge here out of Augustine as you haue quoted it serueth onely to bewray either your grosse ignorance or negligence For I finde he wrote 2. bookes against the aduersarie of the lawe and the Prophets but none in all his tomes can I finde fathered vpon him writen as you say against the aduersarie of the olde and new lawe and if you meant the former there being two bookes of that title and euery one consisting of many Chapters why speake you thereof as though he had writen but one and name not the Chapter when you tell vs where to finde the place you shall be more particulerly answered thereunto In the meane time you see in Augustines iudgement in the two other places that the trueth taught in the canonical scriptures is to be preferred before all other motiues to keepe a man in the true Catholique Church contrarie whereunto I am sure hee neither teacheth where you meane nor any where else You should therefore in his opinion farre better bestowe your time then you doe if you would bestow it in prouing by the scriptures that you your Church were stable in this trueth especially seeing trueth it selfe euen here hath enforced you to confesse that that stablenes is atteined vnto by the knowledge and intelligence of the scriptures But you adde that these scriptures theÌ„ must be vnderstoode according to the traditions of the church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops If by the church you did vnderstande as you should the true and pure church of Christ and by her traditions and Bishops such as were sound that is such as are truely iustifiable by the canonicall scriptures as the ancient fathers Irenaeus Tertullian Augustine with others of those and former times were woont to vnderstaÌ„d them as I haue shewed before when to stop the mouthes of heretiques they did appeale to theÌ„ then wee would most willingly ioyne with you that issue by the scriptures so vnderstoode to trie whether you or we haue attained to the stablenes of trueth But vnderstaÌ„ding therby as you doe your Romish church for these last 500. or 600. yeares her traditions Bishops we say and sure we are we are able to proue it that so far of is it that the scriptures are to be vnderstoode according to theÌ„ that there is no readier way to misunderstand them and to make them to haue a mutable and flexible sence now one way now another then to make them they being so contrary as they be to the ancient sound traditions of Christs church which alwaies were consonant if not the very same to that is taught in the word writen the Bishops you meane being likewise so different from them that were in the primatiue church and ofteÌ„ also so varying amoÌ„gst themselues as they are in the interpreting of them to be the rules of right vnderstanding of theÌ„ Finally if you had any forhead or conscience you would be ashamed so to abuse your poore simple reader as you do in going about to make him beleeue that because Augustine could or did say that the church had continued in it froÌ„ the Apostles times through the succession of Bishops to his that therefore hee saied it had so to ours there being aboue 1000. yeares difference The VII Chapter YOV doe studie as much as you can to reiecte our succession and not without cause a Succession of persons without succession also in trueth neuer was esteemed knowing that this onelie doeth suffice to ouerthrowe all the heresies of those new reformed Gospellers Caluin as the most appareÌ„t doeth seeke to proue that our reason is of no force because that the Greekes haue had euer succession of pastours and yet wee doe not holde them as Catholickes But if the Reader doe well note that that wee haue alreadie saied hee shall finde the answere vnto this obiection I meane because that the Greekes haue not had succession a Holde you to this you may giue ouer your brags of succession for shame and continuance of doctrine called vnitie of faith by the Apostles the which ought euer to bee ioyned to the continuance of the Pastours to shew the true recognisaunce of the Catholicke Religion There is none that doe studie and reade of those matters but that doe knowe the vnconstant faith of the Greekes as touching the proceeding of the holie Ghost the which errour they had abiured at the last councell of Florence and yet notwithstanding they did turne to it againe besides diuerse other light things to speake moderately b You haue as many thinges of importance and more too gainesaiâ—d by your forefathers which are not approued by their ancieâ—t fathers S. Iohn Chrysostome S. Ciril S Basil Athanatius nor yet by our aduersaries at this preseÌ„t time The which errours I haue no neede to set forth in this booke for my intent is but to speake of that that pricks vs at hand because of ill neighbourhood Some doe alleadge vnto vs the c We neuer alleage this alone but together with the false doctrine and vnlawfull vocation of your Bishops and Pastours negligence of our pastours and their ill liues for the which cause they saie that the mentioned succession cannot take place But this argument is of no force For although that the carelesse liues of some Bishops and ecclesiasticall persons haue beene so great so hurtfull vnto the bloud of our sauiour Christ I meane to the soules bought with it yet notwithstanding that d Yet thus for the principall point you are glad to fly from your great prelats to your poore priests the church hath not lost the succession continuance of one doctrine as touching the administration of the sacramentes by those that were deputed by the Bishops e Indeede this kind of diuision is altogether practised in your Romish Church by your Cardinals and great prelats If one should see a Prelate doing nothing and his lieutenant doing all which of those two would you take to bee Bishop they haue both deuided their charges the one receiueth the profit the other taketh all the paine If they be both content what losse do you feele he that hath anie interest let him valewe the damadge And although that the negligence of the Bishop bee not excusable f And yet nothing more coÌ„mon wi h you then wilful continuance yea by your Popes good leaue in this sin before God with the diligence of the deputie nor his conscience cleare yet this ought to suffice that though his faults be through negligence or through euill liuing g True but such doctrine you shal neuer proue yours yet that ought not to perturbe the assurance of our doctrine the which we haue taught vs by the word of God interpreted by the true doctours that haue beene
ouer all Christendome were not vacant they did not for their debates let to administer the precious body of Iesus and the rest of the Sacramentes to preach and teach the people doing manie other godly deedes d This is notoriously false as the stories witnes at sundry times when there were two or three Popes together each hauing his faction and one banning the other And to be briefe the Ciuill dissention at Rome did not cause the rest of the people throughout Christendome to breake the vnitie of their faith which they held before their discordes The ambition of the Popes of Rome was in nothing preiudiciall vnto those that helde the integritie of their faith nor through the reason of their ill gouernance our Sauiour Christ did not lose his rightful inheritance The VIII Chapter THat which is further alleadged in this Chapter to proue that Scribes and Pharisies must be heard and obeyed sitting in Moises chaire notwithstanding their ill liues doeth nothing at all serue to proue that your lewd Popes were to be heard and obeyed For to sit in Moises chaire is not as you imagine to succeed him in place or office but in teaching the trueth as he did and so your wicked Popes that we speake against neuer sate in Moises chaire nor in the Chaire of any Apostle or Apostolique man but in the Chaire seate in respect of their doctrine of the whore of Babylō But by that you afterwards remember of Caiphas Balaams prophecies it should seeme you were of opinion that to preach and to holde the trueth is inseperable from your Popes Chaire and office and that therefore it may not be imagined but that how lewd soeuer they were they could not but prophecy teach the trueth because these in the places by you mentioned notwithstanding they were lewde men did Indeed very fitly might your Popes these many yeares be cōpared vnto these two they resemble the one so fitly in crucifying Christ againe in his mēbers and the other in seeking to curse the people of God for filthy lucre But that vpon these particuler facts of theirs it should follow as therupon you would seeme to infer that least the Harmony of the misticall body of Christ should be brokē God alwaies hath guided the mouthes of your Popes so that they could not erre in iudgement I see no reason at al. For out of particuler facts rare vncertaine you cōclude a general and constant rule Doeth it folow thinke you Pilates wife learned by her dreame that Christ was innocēt therfore womēs dreams are alwaies true Daniel a young childe found out the vnrighteous iudgement of the iudges therefore young children alwaies shall be able to doe the like Or to cōe to your own exāples doth it follow that because Caiphas Balaā prophecied right therfore neither they themselues at other times could erre nor any of that office The Scripture testifieth the cōtrary For the same Caiphas iudicially pronoūced our sauiour to be a blasphemer Mat. 26. Paul Act. 23. chargeth Ananias sitting there iudicially as hie priest as he had iust cause to giue iudgmēt cōtrary to the law in cōmāding him to be smittē And howsoeuer Balaā the false prophet prophecied there wel it is euident by the text that it was sore against his will and that it came to passe by Gods especial power in guiding bridling his tongue And yet it appeareth after that the same Balaā by his wicked counsaile was cause of that trespasse cōcerning Peor Nūb. 31. and you may read 1. King 22. that 400. false prophets prophecied vntruly to Ahab I doubt not but God when it pleaseth him can cause your Popes as he caused these how wicked soeuer to speake the trueth For Iudas after he had betrayed his master yet before he hanged himselfe iustified his master and the Deuils thēselues oftentimes in the Gospel acknowledge Christ aright to be the son of God but thereupon it followeth not because he can doe it that therefore he wil do it alwaies hath nay rather that which is prophesied 2. Thess 2. is verified in your Popes because they receiued not the loue of the trueth therefore God sent thē strong delusiōs that they should beleeue lies for according to this faith they haue spoken O what horrible intollerable blasphemy did your hart cōceiue your pen to your perpetual infamy vtter when vpon occasion of Caiphas prophecy vttered by him either not woting what he saied or rather as Cyril in his 8. booke vpō Iohn Chap. 3. noteth hauing a malitious purpose thereby to persuade the Iews that it was expedient to put Christ to death least the whole nation should bee destroied by the Romans you doe set downe these words that Christ did confirme his pontificate with the gifte of prophecy with the which hee was as fully inspired as Dauid Esay or any of the rest O what iniury in these wordes haue you done to those holy prophets and to the Spirit of God in them as thus to match them with this cursed hell-hounde Wee must holde that they were indued with the Spirit in such measure as that in their writings and sayings wee must be sure they did not erre or els the ground of our faith which is their writinges is shaken whereas this wretch euen the same yeare as I haue shewed you pronounced Christ to bee a blasphemer and therefore most deuilishly erred And indeede hee was wholy destitute of the Spirit of God not onely then but euen in this also for as I noted before out of Cyrill he in vttering of those words had a deuilish meaning and intent though God by his secret power so ordered his speech as that his wordes might also cary this sence that it was expedient that Christ should die for the saluation of man as there also the same Cyrill obserueth And therefore for this he is no more to be saied to haue had the Spirit of trueth to direct him then you may say the deuils and Iudas had that I spoke of before Why then doeth S. Iohn vpon these wordes of his giue this note that he was high Priest that yeare because it pleased God so to tēper his wordes vnware to him that whereas he spake to hasten the death of our sauiour his word sounded that the people should vtterly perish without the death of Christ which was most true but not his meaning By this monstrous comparison of yours we may learne that it is no marueile that you that durst make this beastly comparison dare compare your pastours and Bishops how wicked soeuer both for life and iudgement in Religion which the ancient true pastours of Christs Church Yet hereby you haue taught vs to trust your lofty and swelling comparisons the worse as long as we liue You striue with your owne shadow in labouring to proue that the effect or fruite of the ministry of the word and sacraments dependeth not vpon the life of the minister For it is a
by BertraÌ„ and others before named and their followers as we haue made it most euident in many bookes writeÌ„ to that purpose namely of late in a great booke called Orthodoxus coÌ„seÌ„sus the true catholick coÌ„sent of the holy Scriptures ancient Church of the trueth of the words of the Lords supper and of al the coÌ„trouersie thereabout printed at Tygure 1578 which booke al the swarme of you wil neuer be souÌ„dly able to answere coÌ„fute as long as you liue And therfore al the rest of this Chapter is needles wherein you suppose that betwixt Christ and his Apostles and vs there is none that we caÌ„ produce of our iudgemeÌ„t or otherwise against you But you take vpoÌ„ you to proue that we cut of theÌ„ al that haue bene betweene theÌ„ vs because Caluin hath writeÌ„ haÌ„dling this matter of the sacrament that he did find that they of old time had chaÌ„ged the fashioÌ„ of the administratioÌ„ therof otherwise theÌ„ Christs institutioÌ„ would beare c. wheruâ—oÌ„ your coÌ„clusion followeth not for diuers causes For an argumeÌ„t froÌ„ one to al holdeth not as Caluin hath done so ergo it is all out opion we al do so For though we accouÌ„t of him as of a rare singuler minister of the Lord yet wee doe not binde our selues to doe and say whatsoeuer he did and saied For we know him to haue beene a man subiect to error and infirmity for al his gifts neither wil you be coÌ„tented that such an argument should hold alwaies drawn froÌ„ any one of your greatest most famous learned writers to presse al the rest And a second reason of the weaknes of your argumeÌ„t is that there is more in your coÌ„clusion then is in the antecedent giuen you by him For you would conclude for those are your words to the proofe whereof you cite Caluin that we condeÌ„ne cut of al the ChristiaÌ„s that haue bene are betwixt Christ his Apostles and vs wheras Caluin speaketh not of al but of some of olde time The 3 reason Caluin himselfe giueth you in the eueÌ„ in the words set downe by you he sheweth plainly that though in theÌ„ that he spake of he noted some aberration froÌ„ the simplicity of Christs institution yet he did not therfore cut theÌ„ of froÌ„ the Church nor coÌ„deÌ„ne theÌ„ What are you such a cutter that you straight cut of al those froÌ„ coÌ„munioÌ„ with you in whoÌ„ you caÌ„ iustly finde any fault or errour in opinion or practise of life Surely then you must cut of most of your best frends That which we can foundly proue to be a fault in brethren either ancient or of later time we may safely note tel them of and labour to reforme yet as long as they ioine togither with vs in one God faith and Baptisme otherwise we can and ought to holde peace Christian communion with them or els where caÌ„ there at any time be any true concord or peace kept in the church For some differences of opinions vsages there haue alwaies yet beene and wil be betwixt one particuler Church and another and betwixt some members of the true church or other You needed not therfore I warrant you one whit haue beene afraide that Caluin his fellowes were so scrupulous that they would not ioine in fellow ship with some such as he speaketh of there and yet the letteth not but that he should couÌ„sel his readers to prefer Christs own simple institution before the vsage of them or any other differing from it The XI Chapter YOu doâ— verie wel that S. Paul doth coÌ„pare many times the mistical body of the church vnto a natural body seing that Iesus Christ is the head vnto whoÌ„ the body is ioined by ioints bones sinews If one should then demande of you how the feete are ioined to the head you will answere me by the legs which are next vnto the feete And if I aske you how the legs are ioyned to the head you will answer by the ioints and by the 〈◊〉 of the backe and so consequently from member to member I doe beleeue that we are all of one accord * 1 Cor. 10. that the ende of the world is at hand and so consequently that we are the lower most part of the body so that 〈◊〉 the feete or the legs Then my masters you that haue made so fâ—ne aâ— Anotomie of the Masse at my request make another of the ministrie of your congregation a You were a very pleasant man be like that could thus play your selfe a fit of mirth and when you had done daunce after your owne pipe it seemes you thought that the sport then would be so pleasant that no beholder could forbare laughter If you should see such another as Apelles that would paint a man and that he had drawen his head and without painting the rest of his bodie he had set his feete vnder his eares what would you saâ—â— to such a Table Spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici Would you not thinke that he was a simple painter or else a great Iester Euen so doe you deserue that one should laugh at your ministerie b This is vntrue and a grosse slaÌ„der for we hold and teach that euer since Christ to our daies there haue bene both shepheards and sheepe ioyning with vs in the vnity of faith therfore you laugh at your owne shadow and vaine fansie For you will ioine your Church if it may bee so called vnto the church of the Apostles without setting forth anie members betweene them You take but scant measure when you will cut of all the Bishops Pastours and doctours that haue beene from the Apostles time till our daies they being the members that followe the head of the church This maie well be called a new Religion or to saie the truth it is a meere presumption to flie without winges or to climbe without a ladder And I saie to you againe that this is not the waie to followe the counsell of the great Sheepheard that I mentioned before who doeth saie vnto vs that if we will not misse the waie of the Catholicks we ought to follow the flocke of those sheepe that haue gone before vs that is to saie that we should reckon c But thâ—s in truth yours caÌ„not do therefore yours is not the Catholicke Church by your owne reason by succession the Pastours that haue succeeded in continuance of one kinde of doctrine the which as we haue shewed the Catholicke church doeth and hath euer done The XI Chapter As though you had most substaÌ„tially proued by Caluins words that we cut of all Christians betwixt the Apostles and vs in this Chapter you vrge the metaphor of a body whereunto vsually the church of Christ is compared whereupon you gather that as there is an orderly connexion and situation of members in a body so there must be in the church and that therefore our church must
needes be a monstrous mishapen thing in ioyning the Christians of these later daies with the Apostles without any betwixt and fosâ—â—ating as it were the feete of the body hard to the eares without any other members betwixt the one and the other And thus hauing framed this mery conceit in your owne heade you call vpon your frendes to laugh at it with you and so you proceede in telling vs that whiles we take this course we fly without wings and climbe without a ladder and despise the counsell of Salomon which after your maner you interpret that we should reckon by succession the pastours that haue succeeded in continuance of one kinde of doctrine the which you say you haue shewed you haue done To what purpose now is all this seeing in trueth neither we doe thus cut of all Christians betwixt them and vs neither haue you shewed any such succession of pastours downe from them to you continuing in your doctrine Truely to no other purpose can they serue but to expresse your owne ridiculous vanity Howbeit because you called in the former Chapter for the names of those that haue caught vs to deny your real presence in the sacrament and vpon a conceit in your owne fansie that you haue posed vs you haue growen to bee thus full of these swelling wordes of vanity and because I feare neither you nor many of your disciples will vouchsafe to peruse those books that I sent you vnto for answere in that point yet haue hope that for your sake some of you may chauÌ„ce vouchsafe to reade this I will not sticke with you particulerly to satisfie your request a little further First therefore vnderstand that we haue learned to deny your kinde of reall presence of Christ himselfe the institutour of this Sacrament because he hath flatly and vehemently affirmed without exception Iohn 6.54 that whosoeuer eateth his flesh drinketh his bloud hath eternall life Whereas by the meanes of your doctrine it followeth because all that receiue this sacrament haue not faith but manie lacke it that it shall bee eaten of manie that shal be neuer the better by it but the worse We haue also further learned it of him in that in the same Chapter speaking of the eating of his body drinking of his bloud he drew his hearers from a grosse conceit of eating drinking him by their bodily mouthes by vsing of the word beleeueth in stead of eateth and drinketh ver 40.47 and cap. 7.38 by mentioning vnto them his ascention Iohn 6.62 lattly by saying vnto theÌ„ It is the Spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing the words that I speake vnto you are spirit life ver 63. This finally we haue learned of him saying If any shall say vnto you Lo here is Christ there is Christ beleeue it not Math. 24.23 by his continuing at the table when he first instituted and ministred it vnto his Apostles without alteration either of his place or forme Mat. 26. Mar. 12. Luke 22.1 Cor. 11. The Apostles euaÌ„gelists haue also taught vs to deny it in that they teach vs that he visibly asceÌ„ded into heauen that he shall so also come againe wheÌ„ he coÌ„meth froÌ„ thence c. Act. 1.11 especially seeing his comming to iudgement is called his secoÌ„d comming Heb 9.28 and vntil the restitutioÌ„ of all things it is saied by Peter the heaueÌ„s must coÌ„taine him Act. 3.21 The EuaÌ„gelists in laying downe vnto vs the story of his natiuity life death so prouing vnto vs that he was is a true and perfect maÌ„ encourage vs also least we should with the Marcionites other heretiques denie the trueth of his maÌ„hood coÌ„tantly to â—â—â—y your reall preseÌ„ce for the maintenance whereof you are driueÌ„ to fansy a nuÌ„ber of things quite contrary to the nature trueth of his maÌ„hood And lastly in that reciting the words of the institution they tel vs that Christ commanded that to be done in remeÌ„brance of him Luke 22.19 1. Cor. 11.24 there Paul saith v. 26. As often as ye shall eate this bread drink this cup ye shew the lords death till he coÌ„e which words plainly argu that though the sacrameÌ„t be both rightly ministresâ— receiued yet it inferreth not any such real preseÌ„ce as you ther imagâ—â— Now betwixt them vs we finde infinite places in writers of all ages that teach vs still to denie your reall presence but amongst many marke these for example TertulliaÌ„ in his 4. booke against MarcioÌ„ interpreteth these words Hoc est corpus meum thus that is to say This is a figure of my body Augustine against AdamaÌ„tus the Manichee c. 12. writeth that christ doubted not to say This is my body wheÌ„ he gaue a signe of his body vpoÌ„ the 3. Ps he saieth that Christ admitted Iudas to a baÌ„quet where he coÌ„meÌ„ded a figure of his body to his disciples vpoÌ„ the 98. Ps he saith yee shal not eat this body that yee see neither shall yee drinke that bloud which they shall shed that crucify me I haue coÌ„mended vnto you a certaine sacrament it being spiritually vnderstoode will giue you life In his 3. booke therfore of Christian doctrine he writeth thus This saying of Christ Except yee eate the flesh of the son of maÌ„ c. seemeth to coÌ„mand an heinous thing a wicked therefore it is a figure coÌ„maÌ„ding vs to be partakers of Christs passioÌ„ keeping in our minds to our great profit coÌ„fort that his flesh was crucified wouÌ„ded for vs. c. 16. he saith It is a miserable slauery of the soule to take the signes for the things signified in the same booke c. 5. And therefore in his 23. epistle he telleth vs that the similitude betwixt the signe the thing signified is the cause why the one beareth the name of the other in sacrameÌ„ts in his 57. questioÌ„ vpoÌ„ Leuitic he giueth vs this rule The thing that signifieth is woÌ„t to bear the name of the thing which it signifieth as Paul said The rock was Christ not it signified Christ but eueÌ„ as it had bene indeed which neuertheles was not Christ by substaÌ„ce but by signification So that his vsual doctrine is to teach vs in this sacrament to seeke christ in heaueÌ„ by faith thereby to make him present which otherwise is absent as you may read in his 50. tract vpon Iohn els where very often And with Augustine the rest of the fathers consent in this matter therefore nothing is more coÌ„moÌ„ with them then to call the outward part in this sacrament a signe figure similitude resemblance or representatioÌ„ as it appeareth in these places Chrysostom in his 83. Homil vpon Mat. Hierom in his 2. booke against IouiniaÌ„ Ambr. in his 4. booke of the sacraments c. 5. Basil in his lyturgy Ephr in his 4. booke against the impugners of Christs manhood by humane reason And Origen vpoÌ„ Leuit hom 7. teacheth vs that the letter
ministers either are the authours of any wronge to the Duke of Sauoy or that either they or their followers were the cause of the ciuil warres and troubles in France If the Duke of Sauoy haue any such right to Geneua as you pretend and that it be withholden from him it beeing a ciuil quarrell betwixt him and the states ciuil of those parts why should it be layed to the charge of the ministers who you cannot proue haue had any intermedling therein And as for the troubles in France it appeareth by the stories thereof that they haue proceeded first from your owne side and that the doings of the protestant Princes there haue oftentymes beene iustified euen by the Kings owne edictes and proclamations to haue beene done in all loialty and that their warres haue beene but defensiue against the oppressions offered them contrary both to the ancient lawes and present edictes of the Land by certayne ambitious persons and not offensiue either to the Kings person or dignity And as for your Bishops and Priestes of whose being driuen from their lyuings by our men you complayne so much in some sorte I confesse thorow their occasion indeed they haue beene dispossessed thereof but that seditiously or tumultuously by force they haue beene driuen there from by them we vtterly deny For in most places they haue beene dispossessed thereof by mature deliberation and consideration of the badnes of their titles thereunto in solemne and lawfull assemblyes of the estates of the countries by the lawfull authority of the same estats as namely here with vs in EnglaÌ„d in Scotland and in other kingdomes where the Gospell is receiued and established by publique authority and by the same authority orderly our men whose right thereunto in those assemblyes and Parliamentes haue beene founde to be the better haue beene put into possession thereof And in other places your Bishops and Priestes as not able to stand in the presence of the light of the Gospell when will they nill they they sawe it would take place in their territories forsooke their places and left them to those that had more right thereunto as for example they did in Geneua when the Gospell was first established there And no marueile though vpon the bare preaching of Gods trueth and the entertainment thereof many of your proude Bishops and superstitious Priestes can stand no loÌ„ger in their places For when the Arke of God came in presence Dagon could staÌ„d no longer though his frends set him vp againe neuer so often yea the more they stroue to haue him stand the more dangerous fall got he as you may read 1. Sam. 5. And it cannot be leâ—ted but Christes saying will take place and be verified one time or other Euery plant that my heauenly father hath not planted shall be plucked vp by the rootes Matth. 15.13 whereupon it commeth indeed that the proude prelates of your Antichristian Hierarchie hauing gotteÌ„ vnto themselues titles and offices through the ambitious and fond deuise of mens heads which God neuer allowed to be for his house must needes when God meaneth to reforme his house and to establish his owne orders therein auaunte their roomes and leaue their liuinges for the Lordes true officers and allowed seruantes indeede Blame therefore the badnesse of your foundation and title for leesing of your liuings and nothing else You bid vs shew our euidence that our right to them is better then yours out of the ancient doctours In the meane tyme you apply Tertullians wordes in his booke of Prescription against heretiques against vs and that of Paul How shall they preach vnlesse they bee sent Romans 10. I answere you not onely out of the ancient doctours but out of the Canonicall Scriptures also our ministers long ago haue made euident demonstration vnto the Princes and estates that haue driuen you out of possession and put them in that their title to your liuings was good and yours starke naught in that thereby they proued vnto them their religion to be ancient sound and Apostolique and yours to be but of a later Antichristian stampe though you according to your maner say we cannot deny but that your religion was planted throughout Christendome 1000. yeares before wee were borne which you shall neuer be able to proue true for wee most constantly deny both that antiquity and vniuersality of it And whensoeuer you will wee are ready againe by the same Scriptures and Doctours to proue our right by the same argument to bee good and sound and yours to be of no force come to the triall of it when and as oft as you will And therefore seeing it is a thing most euident that the reason why either you or we should pretend anie right to these or any other liuinges of the Church is that we feede the Church with wholesome and sounde doctrine wee hauing oft proued ours so to be by the grounds aforesaied and you being neuer able to doe the like for yours both Pauls saying and Tertullians must rather take place against you then vs. For I trust you will confesse that there Paul accounteth none sent of God to preach but those that preach the truth and questionles Tertullian vseth those words of his as by the wordes themselues as they are set downe by you it is euident not against those that were able to proue their doctrine sounde by the Apostles writings but against fantasticall heretiques such as had taught and did teach doctrine dissonant from the Scriptures deuised vpon their owne heades Against whom he being to prescribe both by the Scriptures and by the sounde testimony of those that succeeded the Apostles vntill his tyme he might lawfully and to good purpose say what are yee and from whence doe you come c. And truely when any man shall enter into a consideration of the state of the Church in Tertullians tyme both in respect of doctrine and gouernment and on the one side weigh the simplicity of the pastours and teachers then and the agreement that their doctrine had with the writen word and then therewith on the other side compareth the more then princely prelacy and Hierarchie that hath beene these many yeares and yet is in yours ioyned with doctrine not only manifoldly differing but in a number of points directly contrarying the word writen hee shall be enforced to thinke that if Tertullian were aliue againe and sawe notwithstanding how confidently you ruffle as though all were yours and no man had any right to any thing but your selues he would more vehemently vse these words here recited by you against your prelates then euer he did against Marcion Apelles or any other heretique in his time But you are so liberall vnto vs as to tell vs that though wee had commission from God yet he would haue called it backe euen for our noble actes and deedes in driuing you out of possession and taking possession though of our own before the sentence of the iudge was giuen Which you
to God the consciences of his superiours The XVI Chapter NOT we but your Romish Iesuites and seminary Priests are the sowers of that seede of sedition that you speake of neither is it we but they and such like of your side which when they haue so done alleadge onely for their defence their ardent and Apostolique zeale and affection to winne soules This in England and Ireland these late yeares hath notoriously and very often beene found true in these and questionlesse other kingdomes where the Gospell is preached and established haue and doe finde the like For they go vp and downe secretly vnder the pretence of reconciling men and women into the bosom of their mother Church to alienate their heartes from their naturall soueraigne to the obedience of a forraine potentate and so prepare them against the time when opportunity shal best serue to procure the death or deposition of their lawfull Prince And that thus without anie offence to God they maie doe they perswade themselues by vertue of the Popes bull in that therein they bee absolued from their alleageance vnto their home supreme magistrate and are thereby also taught that in furthering either his depriuation or death they shal doe honourable acceptable and meritorious seruice to the mother church of Rome These thinges I say haue of late yeares too too often here in England in open places of iudgement beene manifestly proued against your Iesuites and Popish Priestes and therefore as traitours a number of them and their followers haue beene most worthely executed Which thinges being so euident as they are great shame is it that yet you should not blush to charge vs with these thinges whereof yours are most famously guilty and whereof truely you cannot conuict any of ours You tell vs wee should haue praied to the Lorde of the haruest to thrust forth more labourers thereinto as Christ hath commanded vs Math. 9. and not as you quote it Math. 15. and that in the meane time we should haue reformed our selues and not haue taken vpon vs without some expresse commaundement from God a matter of such importance as the reformation of your estate is According to this counsell of Christ wee haue praied to the Lorde of the haruest and he in his mercy towardes his Church hath heard our prayers and wee hope will euery day more and more to the full ouerthrowe of yours and perfect consummation of ours But that in the meane time they whose eies God hath opened to see the Babylonish confusion of yours should there haue staied as you would haue had them vntill they had a further commission from God then already they had for so you must needes meane by that further commission or expresse commaundement that you would haue had them first to haue had you can neuer proue For they whose ministrie it pleased God to vse to detect your Antichristian doings according to his worde 2. Thessal 2. in these later daies were such as namely Wickliffe Iohn Hus and Luther that had not onely the ordinary calling of those times to feede Gods people as pastours and doctours but also they were such as God had blessed with rare and extraordinary giftes of knowledge and zeale and therefore if they seeing the abhominations of your Synagogue and the grosse blindenesse and errours that you still laboured to holde Gods people in had contented themselues onely with praying vnto God for the redresse therof with reforming of thēselues had not saied their hands shoulders to the work vsing the talents that God had bestowed vpon them to his best aduantage without a further new and expresse commaundement then they had alreadie receiued in the writen word should not they with the vnprofitable seruant Math. 25. haue had their wages They tooke not in hand to doe as they did as you would make your Reader beleeue onely vnder the colour of zeale without expresse warrant from God their Lorde and master For beside their zeale and knowledge by their callinges in that they were famous doctours and pastours in their times they were bound by Gods expresse worde Esay 58.1 Ezech. 33.6 7. and in sundrie other places to doe as they did But to bring vs and our ministers into hatred in this Chapter you labour to perswade your reader that as of burning zeale they haue in many places dispossessed your Bishops and Priestes of their places so as Gods Lieutenants and as men voide of all partiality for thus tauntingly it pleaseth you to write they wil proceede against ciuill magistrates both higher and lower in like maner because many of them haue beene and be as you say as ill liuers and rather worse then your Popish Prelates haue beene Which to bee an vnlawfull thing and the cause of all confusion and horrible disorder you bestowe a great deale of needelesse paines to proue for it is a thing that wee teach and vrge in earnest and you your practise to the contrary beeing so vsuall as it is considered onely in iest and for a fashion teach it But indeede this is the way which the malicious and ancient enemies of Gods Church haue alwaies vsed to disgrace the true seruants of God by with the Kings and Princes of the world and therefore you doe well in that you are nothing behinde them in malice enmity against Gods people in that you studie also to be like them in this Wee reade you know after the returne of Gods people out of their captiuitie in Babylon when they beganne once to build and to go forward either with Gods house in Hierusalem or the walles of that City alwaies this was one of the practises of their enemies to labour their discredit to the hinderance of their worke to accuse them to the Persian Kings to intende therein sedition and rebellion against them Ezr. 4. Nehem. 6. And it appeares Iohn 19. it was the principallest meanes whereby the high Priest and the Iewes prouoked Pilate to giue sentence against our Sauiour that they tolde him that he was not Caesars frend if he deliuered him thereby insinuating though in trueth hee had both payed tribute vnto Caesar and had taught others both by example and word publickly to yeelde vnto Caesar whatsoeuer was due vnto him Math. 16. 22. and they of all other did most repine at Caesars iurisdiction ouer them and their cuntrey that hee was one whose doings and doctrine tended to the supplāting of Caesar In like maner Act. 17. 24. wee finde it one of the vsuall meanes that the vnbeleeuing Iewes and other lewde people then when none in their hearts regarded Caesar and his authoritie lesse vsed to discredit the Apostles and their doctrine to accuse them to be seditious and such as cared not for Caesars decrees Neither did this practise die when the common weale of the Iewes ceased for it appeares in Euseb lib. 5. cap. 1. and in Tertullians Apology in sundry places that there was nothing more common in the primatiue Church
of his trueth out of his written word to call you from this newe found pretended religion of yours to the ancient and true catholicke faith which we haue learned out of the scriptures and of alsound antiquity you not onely burst out into this vaine and monstrously false brags of the antiquity of yours and nouelty of ours but also knowing in your own consciences that your folly therein wil soone be descried you cal then for miracles to confirme and warrant this our commission by which you would faine proue to be as necessarie for vs in this case as it was for Moses in his time thereby to confirme his Wherunto I say as vpon the like occasion S. Augustine said in his time de ciuitate Dei l. 22. c. 8. Whosoeuer yet seeketh after miracles that so he may beleeue he himselfe is a mōstrous miracle who the world beleeuing yet beleeues not For if our doctrine be the same that the Apostles taught as we are alwaies ready and by GODS grace able to proue it to be by the vndoubted woord of God then their miracles are so many seales of this our doctrine and so it beeing thereby sufficiently confirmed already by miracles needles is it to require any further confirmation thereof now by new miracles againe But you seeme to take it for granted that we stand either very much or altogither vpon the extraordinarines of our vocation and therfore supposing that such a vocation must alwaies be confirmed by miracles you call for them the rather thus earnestly at our hands Concerning which point I haue tolde you already that though in such ruins of the church as you had brought it vnto it bee no strange thing with God to stir vp men extraordinarily to seeke the reformation thereof as he did many of the Prophets yet neither the first ministers which in these later daies he hath vsed to this end amongst vs nor those that he hath vsed since to go on with that which the others began rely onely vpon an extraordinary calling for as I haue shewed both the one and the other haue had outward ordinary calling Besides you must vnderstand that a man may haue an extraordinary calling as had Nahū Abdia diuers other of the prophets who yet you cannot shew euer wrought any miracles to confirme their calling withal And to vse Chrysostomes words which he vsed against such as you in that commentary vpon Matth. Hom. 47. which you father vpon him what miracle wrought Iohn Baptist which instructed so many and great Cities For the Euangelist saieth he wrought none Iohn 10. And yet who therefore may lawfully say that he had no lawfull vocation or good commission Againe you know by that which is writen Deut. 13. 2. Thes 2. and elswhere that false prophets yea Antichrist himselfe may and shal seeke to seduce men and to draw men from God by miracles therefore there God forwarneth his people thereof that if notwithstanding they suffer themselues the rather to be peruerted thereby they may be voide of al excuse Wherefore seeing there haue bene sundry true prophets extraordinarily called that yet haue wrought no miracles and also many false prophets that haue wrought them and may doe agayne to what purpose should you thus call for miracles as though they straight might lawfully be refused that worke them not and they safely alwayes followed that doe them Howsoeuer you seeme to pretend that if we should worke miracles you would beleeue vs yet certayne it is that if we should worke neuer so many you would as little for all that beleeue vs as the blinde and superstitious Iewes beleeued Christ and his Apostles for all the myracles wrought by them but this is onely a shift of yours as long as you may to dazell the eyes of the simple For questionles if myracles would serue the turne beside sundry miracles indeede which the stories doe testifie haue beene wrought by God in the protection and propagation of the religiō which we now professe euē this is a miracle of miracles that Luther lyuing in such a time as he did should doe as he did to so great effect wtout miracle yet in the end maugre al his enemies which were many mighty to die quietly as he did in his bed So that al these things considered it appeareth I hope sufficiētly to the indifferent reader that you haue no such aduantage against vs for miracles and you pretend But because your obiectiō in this behalfe is so egerly prosecuted by you I wil not refuse to follow you frō step to step to yeeld you a more particuler āswer to whatsoeuer you haue sayed in this matter First therefore whereas you would insinuate to your reader that we doe wrong in comparing the misery that the poor people were in vnder your Popes to the misery that the people of Israel were in in Aegipt vnder Pharao their deliuerāce frō the Romish yoke to the deliuerāce of that people frō the bōdage of Aegypt we graūt you we make that comparison sometimes we are sure that therein there is offred no wrong at al vnto you For both in vniuersality continuannce of time and extremity both to soule bodie the slauery vnder your proud antichristian Popes hath exceeded theirs vnder Pharao in Aegypt and consequently the deliuerance of the people from that of yours must needes beeing as it is both more spiritual and general then that of theirs was much exceed that of theirs But that therefore it is as necessary that wee should anew work miracles to confirme our vocation to doe this as it was for Moses to confirme his calling to doe the other thereby therin you are both deceiued seeke also to deceiue others For Moses by God was shewed that he should so confirme his and so are not we that we shal or ought so to confirme ours and his calling thereunto was not onely extraordinary whereas ours in great part at least as I haue shewed hath bene to this ordinary but also the thing it selfe and the means to bring it to passe both in the eies of Pharao al others were strange miraculous wheras in this our case in delyuering mē frō your antichristiā seruitude bringing thē to the liberty freedome purchased for thē by the bloud of Christ by the preaching of the worde of God sincerely ministring his sacraments accordingly both are wōted ordinary For what is more ordinary with God then to bring mē frō error to trueth that by these means in his church The thing that Moses was sent to doe was a new strange thing for a man of his quality wtout force of war weapons to deliuer so great gainful a people out of the hands of such an hard hearted tyrāt it is wōderful therfore it was likewise necessary that the means that he should effect that by especially should be miracles Finally there was no certainer way for Moses hauing to
deal with such an one as he had thē to approue his calling by miracles wheras ours in this is far more substātiallie iustified by the scriptures frō whēce our doctrine hath warrāt that hath wrought this effect then it could haue by miracles For as whē the law was first published with al the ceremonies therof it was needful because thē it was new that Moses credit the publisher therof the law it selfe should be cōfirmed by miracle but whē in the raigne of Iosiah Hilkiah the priest foūd the booke of the law which had lien hid before a long time so did but reuiue or renue the same law that was before sufficiently confirmed by miracles he wrought no miracles neither was there any called for or looked for at his hāds for it was needles Euē so whē the ceasing of the ceremonial seruice of the law was to end the new priesthood of Christ to come in place thereof so withal that then first it should be notified both to Iew and gentile who was and is the very person of the Messias what new gouernment sacraments he would haue in his house it was necessary that miracles should be wrought to confirme the ministry of thē that should teach these new strange thinges first vnto the world but now these things hauing bene already then sufficiently cōfirmed by miracles we comming in these later daies of the world and not taking vpon vs to preach any other doctrine then the former and so onely renuing and reuiuing the knowledge of that which by the ignoraunce and wickednes of former times had lyen in great part hid no more at our hands ought miracles to be looked for Indeede if it could be proued but once that we labour to set abroach a new doctrine as you often in wordes charge vs that neuer was before sufficiently confirmed by miracles or if the maner that we vsed to reuiue it by were any other but the ancient ordinary way that God hath alwaies allowed in his Church there were yet some colour of reason why they should bee thus called for at our handes But seeing wee stand vpon that point and haue alwaies done that our religion is the very same and no other that Christ and his Apostles taught which by them in their times was confirmed by miracles and the maner of our dealing to spread the same againe is but the ordinary ministerie of the worde and sacraments by them left for the same purpose vnto the church there is no reason at all in matching vs thus as you doe with Moses and in requiring miracles of vs as of him And vntill you can proue by the scriptures that the doctrine that we preach is false which you neuer shall be able to doe the three places which you cite out of Ieremie 14.27 29. vttered by him to admonish the people in his time to take heede of suffering of themselues to be seduced with the false and lying Prophets that were in those daies make nothing at all against vs nor yet appertaine to the matter in hand which was to proue that seeing we worke no miracles therefore our commission cannot be good in taking vpon vs to reforme you For in these places euē by the words as they are set down by your selfe it most euidently appeares that he warned the people to take heede onely of such Prophets as prophecied falsly in the name of God hauing no vocation from him and labouring to seduce the people by false visions naughty diuinations southsayings and their owne dreames whereas we haue ordinary vocation from God preach nothing but trueth warranted by his word and neuer vse but alwaies abhor the vse of all these meanes that they vsed to seduce the people by But herein most certaine it is that the Lord most plainely forewarneth his people of such as you be For you be they indeede that were neuer sent of Christ but of Antichrist and that preach false doctrine as doeth appeare not only by the dissenting but by the contrariety of your doctrine in a number of points from the vndoubted word of God as I haue noted in sundrie places in this my answere to you and then whom neuer any false Prophets in the world more relied vpon false visions diuinations southsayings fond dreames for indeede they are the best most vsuall pillers grounds of your Popish doctrine For what is more common with you then to the ende these may haue place to complaine and by long rhetoricall discourses to make what shew you can of the obscurity vnsufficiency and vncertainty of the word writen that so with some colour you may shew the triall of your doctrine by that touchstone and all because in your owne consciences you know that it cannot be iustified thereby And then when thus you haue satisfied your selues in weakning what you may the credit of the scriptures to prepare a way for your selues to fly from them then you breake out into commendation of the word vnwriten traditions and liuely practise of the church that so by that window you may thrust in and out to the Church whatsoeuer pleaseth you be it neuer so fond a visiō diuination or dreame of your owne drowsy heads But yet once againe for lacke of miracles howsoeuer the case stand whither we be sent of God or no for your refusing to yeeld vnto vs you thinke you may pleade simplicity and ignorance for your excuse as Abimelech did Gen. 20. especially you say seeing you are willed not to beleeue euery spirit and seeing you reade that the Angell of darknes will sometime trāsforme himselfe into the shape of an Angell of light c. But withall you must remember that you are willed to search the scriptures Iohn 5. so to trie the spirits whither they be of God or no 1. Ioh. 4. For they are able to make the mā of God wise to saluatiō thorowly to furnish him to all good workes 2. Tim. 3. which if you did as you ought thereby you shall be driuen to perceaue that not only our calling is of God but that also we teach the trueth according to the same and that therefore notwithstanding we worke no miracles yet your ignorance cannot be simple ignorance as Abimelechs was but either wilfull or of an idle peeuish negligence and therefore such as cannot excuse you in refusing to beleeue vs. And as it is writen that sathan will so transforme himselfe as you write and that we should take heede what way we take for there is a way that seemeth good and yet leadeth to destruction so you must remember that still the due consideration of the writen word is the meanes to preserue vs frō the dāger of both For thereby Christ hath taught vs to withstand him Mat. 4. euen when he would seeme to fortify his temptations with the word writen it selfe whereby else shall a young man learne to frame his waies aright but by taking heede thereunto according
that within the compasse of their coÌ„mission they had to doe many new and straÌ„ge things namely to call the Gentils to the fellowship of the Church to preach the abrogation of Moses ceremonies to administer new sacrameÌ„ts to ordeine new officers in the Church as Euangelists pastours and doctours and especially to preach Iesus Christ to be the person of the Messias god and man the onely and sole Sauiour of the world for which things sake it was needfull for them to worke miracles howsoeuer it was needeles in respect of the other old doctrine concerning the one true God And therefore to make it appeare that their miracles were wrought especially for the confirmation of this point that Iesus was the Christ the person of the Messias alwaies they worke their miracles in his name whereas wee doe not preach some one point of olde doctrine onely but altogether from point to point our doctrine is olde and hath beene sufficiently by Christ and his Apostles already confirmed by miracles neither haue we any newe but the olde ordinary offices of pastours and doctours to publish it and indeede wee take vpon vs no newe or strange thing but labour as nigh as possibly we can to conforme our selues euerie waie to the patterne shewed vs of ancient time by Christ and his Apostles Wherefore vnlesse as you haue shewed that Moses and the Apostles taught this one olde lesson that there is but one God and that he is he that made heauen earth so ye could haue shewed also that they wrought al their miracles to confirme that that otherwise besides that they had no new strange things to doe teach for confirmation whereof miracles were needeful therefore done by theÌ„ this that you say of theÌ„ is nothing to binde vs to worke miracles doing nothing or teaching nothing otherwise then was done and taught 1500. yeares ago and more by Christ and his Apostles and so you might haue spared all that you haue saied or can say to proue that this is an old and no new doctrine that there is a God that he is but one The XIX Chapter LActantius Firmianus in his book of his diuine institutions cap. 5. vvriting against the GeÌ„tiles doeth proue that there is but one God he doeth alleadge as witnesses all the olde learned Philosophers such as Thales Milesius Pythagoras Anaxagoras Cleanthus Anaximeus Crysippus Heno Plato Aristotle Seneca and others Octauius likewise a Christian Oratour disputing against Cecilius as theÌ„ a Gentle doeth alleage likewise to confound these olde Philosophers and he doeth adde more Xenophon Spensippus Demaritus Strato Theophrastus many more * a Act. 12. S. Paul likewise preaching to the Athenians doeth protest a Act. 17. you should haue said that he doth teach them no new thing but rather him vvhom they did vvorship did not know By the vvhich it is plainelie to be seene that the Apostles did not announce vnto the people anie new law for it vvas verie olde and notwithstanding they did confirme it vvith miracles And if you saie that although those learned Philosophers had aknowledge of God as it doeth appeare by their vvorkes yet there is fouÌ„d in them no mention of Iesus Christ and therefore that it vvas necessarie to approue that doctrine vvith signes and miracles But contrarivvise that you in your new reformed Gospell doe preach the olde Apostolicall lawe I doe answere you to this that the 9. Sybilles b Though it was foreseene that such a one shuld come yet that Iesus the sonne of Mary was he was new and needed such coÌ„firmation by miracles did speake of his comming and birth euen as plainelie as anie of the Prophets and amongst other Sybilla Erithrea did as fullie Prophesie of the comming of our Sauiour to iudge the quicke and the dead as anie other Prophet at S Augustine doeth testifie c Ther is nothing once sounding that way In other places I graunt he speaketh hereof but he no where thâ—s matcheth them with the Prophets Lib. 1. de ciui dei cap. 23. Likewise of his death and passion and of the miracles he should doe before his death The Oracles of the false Gods haue likewise declared vnto the Gentiles the coÌ„ming of Christ as Lactantius Firmianus doeth vvrite * Liâ— 1. cap. 15. li. 4. cap. 15. in his booke of the diuine institutions Nicephorus in like maner doeth vvrite how Augustus Cesar sacrifising to the God Apollo Pithius in his temple could get no other but a verie briefe answere then Cesar did demaund why hee could not make him then as fullie answere as he did at other times Apollo vvas constrained to saie the trueth the vvhich was that a young Hebrewe childe borne of late did commaunde him to retire himselfe into his hell d You text and your margent agree â—oâ—y our margent is right and the other wrong vnto vvhom he was forced to yeelde obediently forasmuch as he was God and gouernour of the other Gods therefore that he did couÌ„sell the saied Cesar quietlie to retire himselfe to make no more adoe the verses are these Me puer Hebraeus diuos deus ipse gubernans Cedere sede â—ubet tristemque redire sub orcum Aris ergo dehinc tacitus abscedito nostris The XIX Chapter YOur proofes in this Chapter out of Lactantius and Octauius that the doctrine of one God is olde and ancient in that they induce the olde learned Philosophers as witnesses thereof and that which you alleadge to the same ende spoken by S. Paul Act. 17. and not as your quotation is Act. 12. might well inough haue beene omitted For as it is a thing not in question so also as you may perceiue by that which I haue saied in mine answere to your former Chapter it proueth not the thing you intend for that both Moses and the Apostles had other matters in their commission that were new and strange for confirmation whereof they wrought their miracles and not for this purpose only But foreseeing that we would in some part answere as I haue shewed that the doctrine of Iesus to be the person of the Messias yet was new in respect whereof it was necessarie for them to approue their doctrine by miracles you would proue that that was not new neither and so your meaning is that the oldnes of our doctrine caÌ„not proue miracles to be vnnecessary But let vs heare how you proue this In this Chapter you proue it by the testimony of the nine Sibils especially of Sibilla Erithrea the rather for Augustines testimony of her in his 1. booke of the citty of God c. 23. though indeede there be no mention at al of her in that place who you say did speake as plainely fully of his comming birth miracles death comming to iudgement as any of the Prophets out of Lactantius 1. booke 15. c. of diuine institutions out of Nicephorus by the oracle that Apollo gaue of him to the
lib. 5. that he doeth omit nothing in his Historie but that that doeth go against himselfe and the professours of his religion I doe wish those that doe vnderstande the Latin to reade this answere of Luther in the Commentaries themselues and for the rest I vvill set it forth translated not by mee but by a minister of your ovvne sect called Robert Preuost vvho dvvelleth in a segnorie of Berne According to his translation the vvordes are b And Luther had reason so to aduise them first because he had no lawful ordinary calling and then because the doctrine which hee set abroach was contrary to the scriptures which is not our case these Luther was of opinion that the Senate of Milhouse should doe very wel and wisely to demaund of Muncer who had giuen him commission to teach and who had called him vnto it If hee say that it is God let him demaunde of him to shew some signe or miracle to proue his vocation and if hee coulde not doe it that they should banishe him for it is common to God to declare his vvill by some miracle at anie tyme when hee vvill haue the common custome and order changed These are the words of Luther We ought to yeelde that that is right to euerie bodie not depriue anie mā of the praise that he doth deserue And so I say al the Catholicke Church is bound to giue praise thanks to Luther for the memorable good wise coūsel that he hath giuē for he hath taught vs how we shal expel ouerthrow not only the heresies that he did preach vnto vs but likewise yours those of al the rest For if it be so that euerie time that God wil chaunge the ordinarie custome such as ours to an extraordinary such as yours there ought miracles to be shewed by those that come extraordinarily By this good godly aduise we know that Martin Luther nor none of you all vvhich doe come extraordinarily as he did doe come from God but rather from the prince of darkenes Caluin doeth confirme this opinion of Luther as touching the vocation of the ministerie for vpon the third Chapter of Saint Luke in his harmonie hee doeth saie thus None ought to attribute vnto himselfe by authority any office forasmuch as it is great temeritie such persons did nothing of them selues except it were being called to it by God Of this we gather we ought to enterprise nothing of our selues for if that the great Prophets haue attended to be called of God what are those that in these daies take it vpon them of them selues we ought to answere that they are presumptuous fellowes c. like vnto Caluin and his fellowes The XXI Chapter IN this Chapter to your purpose the onely thing you bring vs is the counsell that Luther gaue to the towne of Millehouse for the triall of Muncer the Anabaptist which you send vs by your quotation to seeke for in the 8. booke of Sleidon and there it is not but in the 5. but this is your happe with most of your quotations His counsell was that they should will him to proue his calling to be of God by some miracle because it is common with God to declare his will by some miracle when he will haue the common custome and order broken Proue that we either in our doctrine or gouernment of our church doe breake the common custome and order taught in the church for these in the writen word as Muncer did and then follow Luthers counsell and spare not It euidently appeareth in that booke that Muncer was a monstrous fantasticall Anabaptist and that in Luthers iudgement he taught not onely many absurde thinges contrary to the word but that also peruerting all good order and pollicie of Church and common weale he meant nothing more then force theeuerie and other such villanie and yet pretended for his defence extraordinary calling and reuelations and therefore no maruel though Luther gaue this counsell for the sifting of such a wretch In trueth the newnes of your doctrine considered in comparison of that taught in the word and the strangenesse of the order of your Church from that of Christes in the primatiue time thereof leade vs rather more iustly to followe this counsell of Luther against you then any thing in vs can truely moue you to vrge it against vs. Which if we should doe certainely either should we finde you as voide of miracles as you finde vs or at least you would be driuen to alleadge such monstrous vaine and lying miracles as that now I thinke you your selues would be ashamed to tell Indeede the time hath beene when you would bragge of the miracles set downe in your Legends amongst which S. Dunstans catching the Deuil by the nose in the shape of a woman with a paire of tonges and such like good store are reckoned vp and when we were told great wōders of the bloud of Hales which proued in the ende the bloud of a ducke and of great miracles done in this place or that place by the images of this Saint and that but this was in the night of deepe and black darkenes of ignorāce For now that the sunne of the Gospel shineth abroad we heare little noise of your apparitions and visions and other such antichristian miracles that there was so great talke of before It seemeth now that either your spirits are coniured into a dead sleepe or that you haue lost your old gift of working miracles Belike yet in that you make thus much of this counsel of Luther when they came from you so readily and your Church had such a dexterity and was so fruitful in bringing of thēforth it was because God would haue the world to vnderstand that indeed you were setting abroach a new doctrine and a fashion of Gouernment which neither agreed with the ancient and customable doctrine of his Church nor yet with the olde order of the same and that therfore you thought it needfull by such meanes to confirme your commission in so doing Wherfore make as much of this counsell of Luther as you wil it wil proue in the end to touch you more then vs. You cite also a saying of Caluin in his 3. Chapter of his Harmonie vpon Luke but to what purpose For who of vs euer either in word or deed contraried that speach or doctrine of his that is the thing that we obiect against you that of your own heads ye haue deuised a nūber of offices and orders in your Churches that God neuer gaue allowance vnto and besides that you haue set vp a number of pointes of doctrine forged but in the shop of mans vaine braine not onely not agreing to the word writen but diuersly and wonderfully disagreeing And as for vs we stand vpon that point with you that wee neither take office in hand without sufficiēt calling thereunto from God nor teach things that we haue not good warrant for from his writē word In the
rest of the Chapter there is nothing but scoffing at Luther and Sleydan ioyned with malitious slaundering of the one to haue bred not onely Coralstadius Zuinglius and Oecolampadius whereof he needed not to be ashamed if it were so but also Muncer the Anabaptist and the other to be a partiall Cronicler which are things easie for you to speake but impossible for you to proue and therefore therein vntil you bring further proofe you are worthy no further answere And therefore as yet for any thing you haue saied you were best follow our counsell and receiue the Gospel which we preach vnto you least the dust we shake off of our feete against you proue a witnesse against you in earnest at the day of iudgement The XXII Chapter ALthough that by the testimonie of your owne doctours ye are condeÌ„ned yet you doe stil maintaine your ill cause saying that ye ought to be receaued to preach the Gospel a Still herein you flatly bely slander vs. extraordinarilie b If the ordinary way be thus by Pastours and Bishops then few or none of your Priests haue entred the ordinary way from whose ordering Pastours haue beene and be vsually shut out that is to saie without the commission of the Pastors Bishops being those that are sent vs by the permission ordinance of God And you saie to maintaine your commission extraordinarie that you haue the holie scriptures which you doe alleage c This obiection you will neuer be able to answere the which alone ought in this behalfe to be of more credit then al the miracles that euer the Apostles did For it mate so chauÌ„ce that by subtle deuises impostures of the deuil miracles maie be falselie counterfâ—â—ted but not the scripture which is the touchstone of the trueth as it shal be seene by experieÌ„ce wheÌ„ the childe of perditioÌ„ otherwise called Antichrist shal come For he to confirme his saying shall shew such great signes and Miracles that the verie elect should be seduced if it were possible Now to answere vnto this which is a notable waie to deceiue the simple and vnlearned d Nay we take not our cause iustified because we alleadge scriptures but because by the rule of right interpreting we be able to shew that the true sence thereof is of our side which heretiques cannot doe therfore we standing vpon this as vpon the foundation of our cause and we being alwaies ready to yeelde vnlesse we can proue we truely alleadge them all that you say in sundry chapters following to proue that heretiques haue alleaged them is needelesse and beside the point I saie that if the alleaging of Scriptures should maintaine you and fauour your cause so much as you doe saie our side were driuen to hard shiftes for then we might bee blamed before the seat of God not onelie for not receiuing your Gospell but likewise for refusing the Gospell of diuers heretikes that haue beene manie hundred yeares before you vvere borne vvhich did al alleage the Scriptures as it doeth appeare by the three passages vvriten vnto the * Cap. 6.10 12. Hebrewes aboue mentioned By the vvhich the Nouatians did pretende to verifie that the mercie of God vvas denied vnto him that did offende after his Baptisme ioined with that that is writen in the first booke of the Kings If man saied the good Helye doeth sinne agaynst man hee maie agree with him agayne but if hee come to offende God who shall hee bee that shall pray for his sinne Did not the Arrians alleage Scriptures to maintaine that Christ vvas not God and man Yes surelie e How or which proue you this as manie places or more then the Catholikes Saint Augustine doeth vvrite in his booke De haeresibus ad quod vult deum That there vvas in his time a certaine sect of heretikes that taught that for a man to be saued hee ought to be gelded And they did alleage the nineteenth Chapter of S. Mat. where Christ doeth praise the Eunuches which haue gelded themselues for the kingdome of heauen And if a man were disposed to forge another heresie like this hee might soone finde scripture to maintaine it beeing ill interpreted for he doeth commande that wee should pull out our eies and to cut off our handes and feete euerie time that through them we are scandalizated for saieth he it were better for one to enter blinde or lame into the kingdome of heauen then to be condemned hauing all our members so that taking these words as they are plainlie writen we ought to cut the members from our bodie f It seemes you haue beene brought vp in this trade of misalleadging the Scriptures you are so cunning in matching herein wicked heretiques Besides this he that would forge an heresie somewhat more pleasant and easie one might soone doe it the which is that for to goe to Paradise we haue no neede of hose shooes or money because that our Sauiour did so commaund it to his Apostles One maie likewise proue by the Gospell that we haue no neede of Magistrates nor other Superiours forasmuch as our Sauiour hath saied that one is your Lord and master namelie Christ Moreouer a man maie proue by scripture that one ought to retaine nothing vnto himselfe if anie other demaunde it forasmuch as it is writen If one demaund of you your coate you ought not onelie to giue it but your dublet also and if one giue vs a box on the eare it is not inough to take it patientlie but we must turne the other cheeke also g And to this heresie you come maruellous neare in your cap. 34. Iouinian a great heretike did teach that a Christian after his baptisme doeth no more offend God yea that hee could not although he would Who would not hate such a blasphemous errour as this yet if the alleaging of the Scriptures ought to suffise he maie be preferred before Master Caluin as more ancient for hee doeth alleage Saint Iohn in his first * Cap. 5. Epistle vvho saieth Wee knowe that hee that is borne of God doeth not sinne for the generation of God doeth preserue him and the ill spirit shall not touch him And in the same h That is a curled glosse that corrupts the text Iohn speaks not of the sacramentall regeneratioÌ„ but â—f effectuall regeneration by the spirit which alwaies accompanies not the other Euery man that is borne of God that is to saie baptized hee doeth not sinne for the seede of God doeth dwell in him and hee cannot sinne for he is borne of God Saint Augustine doeth write in his eightie nine Epist ad Hilarium that the Pelagians and Manichees among other heresies that they did maintaine they saied that it vvas impossible for rich men to enter into Paradise vntill they had solde all their goods and giuen them to the poore and that all things ought to be commoÌ„ The which doctrine is easilie to be maintained
haÌ„ging in S. Markâ— church at Venice sheweth that Pope AlexaÌ„der the 3. himselfe treading vpon the necke of the Emperour Fridericke the 1. caused thâ—se words of the Psalm Thou shalt walke vpoÌ„ the Adder tread the Cockatrise vnder thy feete which are properly to be vnderstoâ—â— of Christ to be proclaimed as verified of that action of his whereby appeareth that the Pope himselfe hath gone as farre as his flatterers That of Paul by him vnderstood of those that follow the directioÌ„ of the old maÌ„ and are led in their doings by the flesh They that are in the flesh caÌ„not please God Rom. 8. Siricius a Pope also interpreteth of theÌ„ that liue in the estate of mariage A Bishop must be the husbaÌ„d of one wife saieth Paul 1. Tim. 3. that is by their interpretatioÌ„ of one benefice and so his house and children that he must well order and gouerne there also spokeÌ„ of be his parish and parishioners Who so would vouchsafe the reading of your 2. Nicene councell he should there finde store of such interpretatioÌ„s for the maintenaÌ„ce of images so ridiculously alleadged as euer were any And how is it possible that the Church of Rome holding those principles that she doeth but that you must needes be as violent wresters and rackers of the Scriptures as euer were For both Cusan Epist 2.3.7 Hosius de expresso Dei verbo in his triple Dialogue doe teach that the scriptures must alwaies be interpreted according to the practise of the Church so that how oft soeuer that change the sence of the scripture must change also For still the sence thereof must be fitted to the time and in no case it may be thought to retaine a sence contrary to the practise of the Church And now you are fully come to this whatsoeuer at any time you talke either of Scriptures doctours or councels your Pope for the time being hath full power and authority to interprete all as one hauing authoritie so to doe for his owne sence So that in deede and trueth neither Scriptures doctours nor councels how plaine soeuer their wordes bee to contrarie the doings of your Church shall cary awaie any sence to ouerwharte you at all but will they nill they they shal be caused by your Pope to speake on your side And therefore these thinges considered you are the men and not wee that take the precious ornaments from Epiphanius picture of a king that you speake of in your twenty three Chapter and decke the image of a dogge or of a foxe therewith that is according to your owne application which take the wordes of the Scripture and by wresting of them make them serue to countenance your heresies For heresies wee holde none â—â—ither doe wee alleadge the Scriptures but in his true sence 〈◊〉 by these rules before mentioned we are alwaies readie to proue â—nd therefore for all your saying to the contrarie the Scripture as it is alleadged by vs shall proue euen that word of God that shall iudge you and condemne you if you repent not the sence that you force vpon it shall proue but the deuise of man false doctrine yea your whole Religion is but a renuing of olde heresies For with the Ebionits you will not be iustified by faith onely Euseb lib. 3. ca. 24. but also by your owne workes inhereÌ„t righteousnes as the Catharists haue taught you Isidor Etymolog lib. 8. cap. de haeresibus Of the Manichees you haue learned your ministring in one kinde Leo serm 4. de Quadragesimâ Marcus that heretique who by his inuocatioÌ„s made his followers beleeue that in the Eucharist he turned the wine into bloud hath beene your first schoolemaster for your doctrine of traÌ„substantiation Epip haeres 34. And your multitude of images your worshipping of them the Carpocratians haue taught you as to appeares Iren. lib. 1. cap. 23. 24. when you commit these idolatries you haue learned to excuse your selues to torment your selues and to light candels at noone daies of the ancient idolaters LactaÌ„tus lib. 2. cap. 2. lib. 1. cap. 21 6. cap. 2. As the Messalians restrained the force of baptisme to former sinnes witnesse Theodoret diuin decret cap. de baptismo so doe you As Montanus taught of purgatory oblations and praiers for the dead and limbus patrum Tertullian de coronâ militis euen so doe you As the Collyridians sacrificed vnto the Virgin Mary and worshipped her Epiphan haeres 79 so doe you As the Angelists and Caians gaue diuine honour to the Angels Epiphan haeres 38 so doe you As Montanus and the Manichees deuised lawes for superstitious fasting Euseb lib. 5. cap. 16. Aug. de moribus Manicheorum lib. 2. cap. 13 so doe you As the Tatians Encratites and Manichees were iniurious enemies to Matrimony crying out that it was a carnal life therefore forbad it to their elect and to them that would be perfect amongst them August Epist 47 likewise doe you And as the Pelagians denyed that to be sin which ariseth not from reason and wil August contra Iulianum lib. 3. cap. 5 so doe you for the very same reasons deny concupiscence of it selfe without consent thereunto to be sinne as there further it appears they ascribed to the natural powers strenght to doe spirituall things and affirmed that a man is to be saued for and by keeping the law so doe you Of the Valentâ—nians also you learned to haue in such price as you haue the signâ—â—f the Crosse and to abuse places of Scripture for it as God forbiâ— that I should reioice in any thing but in the Crosse of Christ Irenâ—us lib. 1. cap. 1. Epiphan lib. 1. Tom. 2. haeres 31. Of the Heracleoâ—nites you learned your extreame vnction and other ceremonies you vse to the dead Epiphan lib. 1. Tom. 3. haeres 36. Of the Macionites Pepusians Aug ad Quod. cap. 27 you learned to giue women leaue to baptise Epiphan haeres 42. Of the Hemerobaptistes and of the Ossenes you learned your holy water holie salte holie oile and holy bread Epiphan lib. 1 Tom. 1. cap. 17. 19. And of the same Ossenes you haue learned also your superstition about reliques and to pray in an vnknowen tongue as Elcai their great Pope taught them Epiphan haeres 19. Thus if a man in reading Augustine Irenaeus and Ephiphanius and others that haue laboured in confuting the ancient heretiques would diligently marke what heresies and fonde things they held and vsed he should by and by by comparing their doings opinions with yours finde that you haue reuiued very many of their rotten and condemned heresies and that you haue learned most of your Ceremonies of them And yet as though you of all men were freest and furthest from all heresie still you crie out he retiques heretiques But it is but policy that you haue learned of some theeues who the better in an hew cry to escape ride crying out of theeues theeues But for all
this as though you meant as honestly as any man could desire in this 33. Cha. of yours you tel vs that you would haue the Scriptures interpreted by him that did indite thē and therfore you alleage that 2. Pet. 1. that no prophecy in the scripture is of any priuate motiō or interpretatiō For the prophecy came not in old time by the wil of mā but holy mē of God spake as they were moued by the holy ghost wherupō you insinuate vnto vs that you would haue thē interpreted by the directiō of the same holy ghost which we are very well contented wtal For indeed that onely interpretation is sound and good that commeth from thence and that is alwaies to be accounted to proceed but from a priuate motion that hath not ground from thence though otherwise neuer so great and publique persons and neuer so manie deuise it receiue it and hold it neuer so long And therefore it is that we tell you that your interpretations though they be countenanced with Popes doctours and councels and what els you will yet are to be reiected as priuate interpretations vnles they be warranted by the testimony and authority of the holy Ghost But thē say you you challēge this holy ghost to lead you to the true sence how shal we beleeue that it dwelleth more in you thē in al the vniuersal church from Christs passiō to this time I answere you that we take no such thing vpō vs. For we say if you vnderstand by the Church you speake of Christs Church which hath frō thēce cōtinued vnto this day it hath neuer bene destitute of the same spirit of God that now leadeth vs into all trueth otherwise if thereby you vnderstād onely your own Synagogue of Rome as the state of it hath beene these later 500. or 600. years at the least we say as it hath forsaken the true Christ and hath set vp another of an office of her owne deuising so hath shee beene destitute of his spirit and hath beene guided but by an humane foolish spirit But then you aske vs where this spirit did rest before we were borne Wherunto you thinke wee can make no other answere but that 〈◊〉 dwelt in the heartes of the faithfull And is not this a good answere What fault can you finde in it Is it not true Doeth not Gods spirit dwell indeede in such yea and in none but such Now whereas you thinke that if you should aske vs againe where were those faithfull ones our answere onelie would bee where the holy Ghost was and that wee could giue you no directer answere and so thereat you take your pleasure saying that that is to plaie handie dandie c though if wee should answere you no otherwise we might doe so with better reason then your Collier in Hosius so much commended by him and some of you else might answere as he did who when he was asked how he did beleeue answered as the Church beleeueth and being demanded how the Church beleeued answered as I beleeue For the Scripture doeth expressely binde vs when wee are called to answere for our faith that wee should yeelde a reason thereof 1. Pet. 3. and so it bindeth vs not to bee alwaies able to make demonstration who bee the faithfull and where they dwell from time to time yet you vnderstand well enough if you were disposed that wee both can and haue giuen you a more particuler answere and that wee haue tolde both the names of the most famous persons and also where they and their followers haue liued and dwelt that beleeued as wee doe and therefore had the holie Ghost as well as wee But to let your gibing go if in earnest you would haue it tried whither in interpreting the Scriptures you or wee haue the holie Ghost and so consequently whither you or wee bee liker these heretiques you speake of in misinterpreting the Scriptures your interpretations and ours must bee examined which will stande best with the rest of the Scriptures wherein we are sure the holie Ghost hath spoken and so they whose interpretations are found best to agree therewith sentence must bee giuen on their side that they haue the holie Ghost and that the other haue it not For Chrysostome writing of the holie Ghost gaue this rule to trie whither Montanus and Manicheus had this spirit or no as they bragged and hereby hee proueth that Christ taught by this spirit because hee confirmed his doctrine out of the Lawe and the Prophets whereas the false teachers could not doe so Christ himselfe also by his owne example hath taught vs when the question is betwixt two about the sence of a sentence of Scripture yea though hee that bringeth the wrong sence be the verie Deuill himselfe that this is the next best and ordinariest waie to stoppe his mouth and to make it appeare that hee hath brought a wrong sence to see whither it will stande with some other plaine place of Scripture or no. For when the Deuill had alleadged the ninetie one Psalme in this sence that the meaning thereof was that though Christ should throwe himselfe downe head-long yet his fathers promise was that hee should take no harme because by this sence sathan would haue perswaded him vpon presumption vpon his fathers protection to haue tempted him Christ proueth that that could not bee the sence of the place because it was writen as it is Deut. 6. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God And with this answere sathan as cunning and malitious as he was gaue ouer to replie any further for the iustifying of his sence Math. 4.7 So also Iohn 5. in that great controuersie touching the person and office of the Messias when as the ground thereof was that his enemies had falsely interpreted the prophesies concerning him yet Christ for the determination thereof and to make it appeare whither they or hee brought the truer interpretation thereof saieth Search the Scriptures And therefore when Paul had preached the Gospell at Berea it is noted to the commendation of certaine men there that they searched the Scriptures daiele whither those things were so by that meanes labouring to satisfie themselues in this great question whither Paul or the Scribes and Pharisees had the spirit of God in interpreting the Scriptures concerning the Messias And this course all the ancient fathers haue followed as appeareth plentifully in their workes in the confuting of those heretiques that you speake of and all other and consequently in determining whither they or themselues had the direction of the holy Ghost in interpreting the Scriptures And therefore they haue giuen vs rules to helpe vs in this case as for example Tertullian against Praxeas hath giuen vs this Fewer places must bee expounded by the more Augustine this The circumstance of the Scripture is woonte to giue light and open the meaning in his booke of Questions quaest 69. Darke places are to be expoūded by more plaine places that is the
surest way of declaring the scriptures to expoūd one scripture by another in his 3. booke of Christian doctrine cap. 26. and in those bookes writen of Christian doctrine many moe very profitable Which way Chrys thought so sure a way that he saieth flatly The holy scriptures expound thēselues and suffer not the Reader to erre in his 12. Homil vpon Gen And yet for all this to this triall will not you of the Church of Rome be brought neither for the triall of your interpretations nor yet for determining of this question whither you haue the spirit of trueth or no. Christ and his Apostles were contented to put themselues for triall of their doings to this but your Popes thinke scorne to looke so lowe yea rather they will haue all questions wherein they are principall parties themselues tryed by themselues and you and they crie out that this is not the readiest way to ende such questions But who is so madde as to thinke that you can finde out a better way then Christ and his Apostles vsed You will send vs say some of you for the triall of these matters vnto the doctours and councels and yet when it commeth to the point vnles they and their sayings please you yee reiect them also And you cannot denie but that oftentimes also it is farre more disputable and doubtfull what was their meaning then what is the meaning of the Scripture and you know also that it is an vsuall thing with them to sende vs backe againe to the Scriptures for triall of their writings as it appeareth in Augustines 19. Epist to Hirom and in his 111. Epist to Fortunatian And therefore indeede say you what you will this is the safest surest and readiest way of triall of this and all other matters in question betwixt vs to bring all to the touchstone of the scriptures I would to God therfore that once you would giue ouer al other bie and indirect trials and come onely to this for then it would quickely appeare euen to the simple whither you or wee were rather to be followed For all this we ioyne with you in the later ende of your twenty three Chapter in warning men to take heede that they doe not rashly beleeue follow euery one that will pretend that they haue the scriptures on their side But whereas you write that the heresies which you will after speake of that were condēned by the Catholique church were as well more largely confirmed by scriptures thē we can thereby confirme our Religiō therein first you most vntruely report that of vs as we doubt not but to make it euident vnto the world if you would once come to any indifferent trial with vs secondly I must admonish the reader that these ancient heresies indeed were condemned by the Catholique Church but that that catholique Church was not yours nor as yours now is For the differences be infinite betwixt yours the Church thē by reason whereof there is as great difference betwixt the Church then and yours now in effect as there is betwixt ours now and yours In your recitall of the heretiques abusing the scriptures diuers things slipt from you also worthy the noting namely these that you could not content your selfe with shewing vs how they did abuse the Scriptures in wrong alleaging them but that as though your fingers itched to shew that you had as good skill therein as they you still intermingle with theirs your owne cunning in shewing how other places might be abused in like maner neither confuting in the ende their collections nor your owne how dangerous soeuer Another tricke you haue in noting the trueths impugned by them and the maner how they went to worke though neuer so vntruly yet cōfidently to set downe that the things which we impugne in you were holden by the Church in equall degree of trueth and reuerence with them that they set themselues then against and that they cried out against traditions of men and cried onely for the writen word as we doe wheras in trueth few or none of the things we condemne in you were hatched then and the contrary before hath appeared out of Irenaeus lib. 3. cap. 2. that it was their fashion to flie from the Scriptures and to accuse them as you doe and to vrge traditions that they also vsed to vrge other such like grounds for their heresies as you doe as I haue shewed cap. 3. The last is that for the most part you charge them with what you list not shewing vs where you read or finde ground for these things wherewith you charge them belike least in turning to the places examining you proofes we should to your discredit haue occasion thereby to discry in you either some malice errour ignorance or some negligence at the least For example how proue you that which you write cap. 22. that the Arrians alleadged as many or more places then the Catholicks Or that the same Church that condemned the Adamits hath condemned vs Hus and his schollers condemning them But to passe on from these things to your conclusion vpon these premisses and to that which you infer thereupon in your 26 Chapter I graunt you by that which you haue writen in the former chapters it may be seene that one ill disposed maie soone alleage scripture in a corrupt sence but what is this to proue that which you vndertooke cap. 22. that is that the holie scriptures which we alleage do not iustifie our doings If you would haue proued this indeed you should haue proued that we alleage the scriptures in a wrong sence as these did that you haue talkt on but that was to heauie a peece of worke for you therfore you thought good not once to meddle with it But yet as though either you had proued it or else that it could not but wtout proofe be graūted you you boldly affirme as these hereticks that you haue talkt of haue perished their heresies so shall we our followers if we repent not Wherunto I answere first that so repentance maie be takē that it is most true that not onely we our followers but you yours also al men else must repent or else we al you and al other shal perish but taking it as you doe for repēting of our religiō of alleaging of the scriptures which we doe for the maintenāce of it against you you haue saied nothing at al as yet to make vs once to thinke that we haue any need at al so or therof to repēt Secōdly I saie that in thus saying you haue shewed your malice boldnes more then any thing else for you haue therin vttered nothing but a blind prophets dreāe and fansie which no man of any wisedome or discretion wil make any reckoning of It is wel yet that the euidēce of the trueth hath enforced you here to confesse that it maie be seene in al the ancient ecclesiastical writers that the doctours fully
is manifestly taught in others which is your fashion altogether and we alleadge them truely to confirme onely the trueth and therefore are very well contented that our interpretations should be tried by all soūd and good rules of interpreting Whereas you adde If we say they were heretiques and abused the scriptures c. the like report you say is of vs I say the more is their fault that so report of vs for they can neuer proue it Howbeit to make your report seeme the more probable you cōpare our dealings with theirs which by your saying are very like But the reader must be aduertised that you frame their speeches doings here without booke I meane without warrant of any good authour that reporteth these things of them euen of your owne head that so you may the better make their speeches and ours alike I praie you in what good authour did you euer reade and yet here you confidently aduoutch it that the Palagians Nouatians Nestorians c. who were long dead and buried before your Pope was hatched preached that the Pope was Antichrist It may be true that you write that some of them railed against the Roman Church that then was But alas what is this for your Romish Church now which is no more like that then then an apple is like an oister Indeede this is one of your trickes wherewith you coosen the poore simple people For it is the fashion of you all when you finde in any ancient father anie thing that soundeth to the credit of the Catholique church or to the commendation of the Roman Church in their daies to alleadge it as spoken in the commendation of your Romish church now a 1000. yeares after their death whereas there is more difference betwixt yours and that which they speake of in weighty materiall points of doctrine and discipline then in yeares If your Romish Church now would returne to the state of the ancient church of Rome and grow once like that you and we should soone agree For that is the thing that we will stand vpō with you that it is you in your railing vpon our churches that according to the fashion of these ancient heretiques raile vpon the church of Rome that then was rather then we For our churches are 1000. times more like it indeed thē yours as it is now Nether are you able to produce your authours to proue that these heretiques did at euery word alleadge scripture or appeal onely thereunto For the contrary is euident both in Epiphanius Tertullian Irenaeus August and others that wrote against them For they testifie that many of them shunned the triall of the Scriptures onely and fled euen as you doe to traditions succession of fathers visions other such like motiues as councels fathers antiquity consent c. as I haue shewed cap. 3. as appeareth euidently in diuers of these fathers writings as in Tertul in praescrip contra haeret Epiphanius in many places de haeresibus Chrysost in Math 4. Irenaeus libro 3. cap. 2. August Contra Maxim lib. 1. de Baptismo contra Donatist lib. 3. cap. 2. in Ioan Tract 13. de vnitate Ecclesiae cap. 15. Epist 165. ad Generosum Who but one of your Religion would euer thus grossely abuse his simple poore Reader You yet as a man that had saied all this while nothing but that you might truely say proceede on with your comparison tell vs that they were condēned by generall Councels so are we they were found cogging knaues and so shall we Whereunto I answere that those which you call generall Councels were but late Conuenticles of your owne since the apostasie of your Church from the ancient Roman Church wherein there was indeede no freedome of a lawfull Councell enioyed and therefore whose condemnation we neede care no more for then Christ and his Apostles needed to care for the sentence of condemnation that in their times the high Priestes Scribes and Pharisees gaue of them and their doings in their councels And as for your vnmanerly prophecie we neede not esteeme it For neither is your mouth any slander nor yet doe we take you to be a true Prophet But seeing say you they and you be thus like why should they be condemned for heretiques you absolued receiued I answere the likelihood is denied and the reason I haue giuen you alreadie As for Augustines probleme you talke of it is impertinent and toucheth vs not For we doe not with the Donatists shut vp Christs inheritance within the compasse of any place as they did in Africke neither say we that Christ at any time hath lost his in heritance but we say that Christ hath had alwaies and hath still his Church without restraint of place wheresoeuer it pleaseth him neither doeth it remaine now onely with a fewe rude Switzers and in two or three corners besides as it pleaseth you to speake For it is well seene that diuerse whole kingdomes as England Scotland and Denmarke haue receiued our Religion and that indeede it groweth so mightily in most places that it maketh the stoutest of you greatly feare that ere it be lōg your kingdome of the Pope will be greater in the west Indies then in these parts Hauing done with vrging this probleme which indeede fitteth you Papists better then vs in that you tie Christes inheritance to your Popes girdle you tell your Reader but you meane to proue it at leasure that these heretiques that you haue talked on all this while haue fortified their campe with as manie moe places as wee alleadge and therefore once againe you would haue a reason why that notwithstanding they should bee counted heretiques and not we You make vs answere because they did interpret them contrarie to the Churches doctrine which you suppose is the onely answere we can giue But I haue tolde you that because when there is questiō of truth there is cōmonly also questiō of the church our answere is that their alleadging of them was hereticall ours true and right as may be proued by the scriptures themselues and by the right rules of interpreting of them But be it that we answere as you imagine what haue we lost or you gained thereby This say you that you haue no more right then they to be counted Catholiques because you alleadge them also contrarie to the Churches doctrine Here againe you deceiue both your selfe and your Reader with the ambiguity of the word Church For if wee answere that we reiect their allegations for that they alleadged them contrarie to the Churches doctrine that then was we by the Church vnderstand a sound and sincere church of Christ in possession of sound Religion and not whatsoeuer Synagogue will entitle it selfe with the name of the Church and so vnder the name of the Church warre against the true church In which sence onely your Church against whose doctrine wee alleadge them hath the name of a church And yet you as though it
of those men then we shall be this other way Seeing therefore Christ tooke this way himselfe both with the deuil himselfe with his chaplaines both to confute their errours erroneous interpretations to confirme the trueth by searching the scriptures and neither he nor his Apostles sent vs either by word or their example to the high Priests then or vnto any other for resolutioÌ„ of the church or trueth this way as the best only way we thinke all ChristiaÌ„s bound to take And in so doing let not any man despaire but that through the goodnes of God he shal be inabled to trie the spirits to discerne who amongst all other alleadge the scriptures soundliest For we see it is the fashion of our God to reueile his trueth and the misteries thereof to those that be his how simple soeuer when he doeth conceale hide them from the great men of the world Mat. 11.1 Cor. 1. But you say If this may and must be atteined by the grace of the holy ghost obteined of the lord by faithfull inuocatioÌ„ of his name how chanceth it that since Luther for no ancienter you say though it be neuer so false our ReligioÌ„ is you haue not obteined that holy ghost to ende your hoat contentions and debates amoÌ„gst your selues that so you might be at vnity yet amoÌ„gst your selues This is spoken as though it must needes follow that either we haue not faithfully praied vnto God for his spirit or els if we haue that then of necessity there neither could be nor would be any difference of opinions and contentions at all amongst vs. If you be of this mind then the manifold differences schismes sects varieties of opinions that haue beene and yet are in your church as I haue noted cap. 4. argueth in your Logicke that your church neuer yet praied faithfully and effectually for the holy ghost But indeede your argumeÌ„t is naught For it appeareth Ioh. 17. that Christ himselfe praied for vnity amongst his Apostles and all that should beleeue their doctrine no doubt of it he was heard in that he praied for Heb. 5.7 and obteined for his heaueÌ„ly father would deny him nothing and yet you haue heard cap 4. after this there were varieties of opinions and hoate contentions betwixt some of them that doubtles of both parts were within the compasse of Christes praier And therefore that praier of Christ and the prayers of his seruants made to that ende are to be vnderstoode to take place and to be effectuall in that there is so much vnity amongst the true members of the Church atteined thereby as is sufficient to holde them togither in the communion of saints which is if they ioyne togither in holding the foundation and fundamentall points of Religion though otherwise there be differences and hâ—at contentions sometimes amongst them And it may not be thought as you seeme to take it that such prayers either are not effectually made or els there must followe thereupon simply an vniuersall accorde in all things For then Christes prayer was not effectuall in that after Paul and Barnabas were at aâ—arre Act. 15. c. That vnity that you speake of the Church may striue for here but she is not to make her account to atteine vnto it before she come in heauen and bee maried to her husband there And so much vnity there is betwixt vs and those whom we count members of Christes Church with vs as that though there be some variety of opinions and therefore also contention but too much yet we ioyne so togither here in the foundation and other most principal points of our Religion that we doubt not but the Lord hath heard our praiers and graunted vs the spirit of vnity so farre forth as that one daie we hope in heauen all to ioine together in perfect vnity notwithstanding the iarres that otherwise in the meane time to trie vs withall be fouÌ„d amongst vs. You know we praie daily that Gods will may be done in earth as it is in heauen and so doe you or you are to blame and herein we hope we are heard and yet simply we neuer found nor shall as long as the world standeth the will of God so done here as it is in heauen For continually there is disobedieÌ„ce to his will here in one thing or other one way or other euen amongst the best but in that in such measure as God seeth this fit to be obteined here he granteth it we are notwithstanding to thinke our prayers effectuall Christ himselfe praied Iohn 17.15 to deliuer his church from euill and yet though that prayer was heard in that God so farre forth preserueth his church from euill as he seeth it expedient for the state thereof here we see daily that many are the troubles and euils that the poore church is encombred withall And therefore to conclude you must vnderstaÌ„d that the faithfull praiers of Gods saints are to be accounted effectuall though the thing they pray for be not obteined in full perfection here as long as so much here is obteined as the Lorde seeth to bee necessary and conuenient for the estate of his seruantes So that notwithstanding the differences amongst vs you might and would if you had the grace ioyne rather with vs in our Religion then continue in that wherein you are the professours whereof are torne a sunder with moe and greater differences then the churches that receaue ours are howsoeuer you deceiue the simple with the vizarde of vnity in that you ioyne together vnder your Pope against the trueth The XXVIII Chapter NOw to turne againe to our former purpose if it were so that of our owne free deliberation wee were minded to forsake our Catholique Religion a If you should be of no Religion whiles all of one were full of one mindâ— you must die a nullifidian I warrant you the iniurious disputations that you vse among your selues were sufficieÌ„t to make vs to suspeÌ„d our iudgemeÌ„t without leauing to any of both parties vntill that we could see more resolute in your opinioÌ„s being the bardest matter the knowing in what cuÌ„try the residence should be kept for that matter b Where wheÌ„ nay our absolute sentence iâ— as our bookes doe testifie and we proue it out of the ancient fathers that your doctrine in this point is but new a very young â—â—ng in comparison of that you would here haue it seeme You haue giueÌ„ absolute senteÌ„ce saying that the Catholique church hath erred euen froÌ„ the Apostles time vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are deade constituted in a third place called Purgatorie You should mee thinke at the least allowe a third place although it bee not that to receaue the soules of those whose consciences you haue so troubled that they know now neither what is their faith nor of what ReligioÌ„ they should be c Such vâ—setled and vnstable persons for all your foolish
thereby sufficiently ratified or else gibe at it howsoeuer here you shall one day to your smart I feare find your selues to be without all excuse One tricke of your learning yet I maie not forget which you haue in the beginning of this Chapter which is this that alleadging this saying of Christ Search the Scriptures for they are they that testifie of mee you note that he saied not they are iudges but they bearewitnes of me which you tell vs are two different things This was by the way to giue vs a blow that would haue no other Iudge but the word of God And to what end would you haue the Scriptures but to staÌ„d at the barre as witnesses Truely that your Pope and your Church might sit on the bench as iudges to giue seÌ„tence as it pleased them whatsoeuer the witnesses depose But what little reason there is therein nay what blasphemy that sauoureth of you euery maÌ„ may learne by the certaine infallible trueth alwaies witnessed vnto vs by the one of the manifold errors iudged and practised by the other It is worthy the marking to see how still it grieueth you that the Scriptures or certaine word of God should sit aboue your Popes you to check controle your doings and how faine you would bring them vnder to bee iudged ouerruled by you But to answere this your obiectioÌ„ you must be put in remembrance that there is not such a difference betwixt a iudge and a witnes but one selfesame man may be both a witnes a iudge that if there be such a force in this word witnes here to driue the Scriptures to the barre to stand but amongst witnesses there is as great force in the word Iudge in another place to bring them to the beÌ„ch againe to sit as iudge Remember your selfe therfore that the same Christ that saied here that the Scripture beare witnes of him sayed Ioh. 12.48 to such as you are He that refuseth me receiueth not my words hath one that iudgeth him the word that I haue spoken shal iudge him at the last day And neuer disdaine you that the scriptures that bare witnes to Christ sit as iudges ouer you and your doings if you doe the wil not serue your turne For Christ hath tolde you what you shal trust to if you wil not stand to their iudgement here you shall one day wil you nil you be iudged by them to your smart elsewhere Wherefore howsoeuer in the end of your former Chap. you couÌ„t him a foole to be reiected that counselleth you to leaue that which you take to be the catholicke faith confirmed by the ancient Doctors general councels if he bring scripture indeed on his side you wil proue most foole if you beleeue him not This your Gerson saw therfore he hath writen that there is more credit to be giuen to one man learned in the Scriptures and hauing theÌ„of his side then either to the Popes senteÌ„ce or to the decrees of a general councel And your Abbot PanormitaÌ„ ad CanoneÌ„ Titulo de Electionibus hath the like saying But indeed whiles we labour to draw you from your errors to ioine with vs in our religion we doe not perswade you from that but to that indeed which our ancestors whom we may safely follow the Patriarches Prophets Christ his Apostles hath taught vs and which the true Church of Christ hath by her sound and faithful pastors lawful Synods and councels euer since vnto this day taught vs. This wee are sure is true For we finde our selues able by the Scriptures the sound monuments of antiquity the Cronicles of al times ages to proue and iustifie it to be so against al gaine-sayers And therfore I would wish you for fear of the senteÌ„ce of this Iudge the scriptures though you labour neuer so much to bereaue theÌ„ of that office of a Iudge amongst you that neither lacke of miracles working by vs nor the glorious dombe shewes of catholique faith Catholique Church ancient fathers and councels c. hold you any longer froÌ„ ioining hands with vs. For to pretend all these neuer so much wil no more excuse you from falling vnder the sentence of this Iudge then the like did your predecessors the hie priests Scribes and Pharisees in Christs time who by reason of such falsely pretended arguments kept theÌ„selues backe from yeelding vnto the same religion then preached by Christ and his Apostles to their vtter destruction The Lord of his infinite mercies open your eies in time and giue you once grace in simplicity of heart to search for the trueth of religion in his writen word and to leaue deceiuing of your selues others with these sounding and swelling words of vanitie Amen Your childish and grosse ouersight ignorance by the way shewed about Daniels 70. weekes in this Chapter is most pitifull For whereas he speakes but of 70 you say he did speake of 72 those you count to containe lesse yeares by 4. then they doe and contrary to al trueth of story the expresse wordes of the Angel Chapter 9. set downe by the Prophet you appoint them their beginning before the Captiuity wheras they must of necessitie beginne after The XXXI Chapter YOu a But not alone foâ— especially we comfort our selues in the goodnesse of the cause do alleage the inuincible patience of your holy Martyrs in times past for at this present if it pleased God that you did martyrizate no more soules with your false preaching then there are bodies that suffer for your doctrine your sect were nothing so dangerous as it is You glorie in your Martyrs of times past which haue sealed with their owne bloud the doctrine of that holie Cittie Geneua But in this ye are much deceaued for S. Iohn Chrysostome in his first oration against the Iewes doeth say that the paine doeth not make the Martyr but the cause for otherwise the theeues murderers might claime the like title although they suffer for another cause for we honour and loue the martyrs saieth he not for the tormeÌ„ts that they doe suffer but for that it is for Christ that they suffer for Iustice b There is no such thing there turn the place who list yet I deâ—â— not but in some other place he may write so but no wher against such as we but rather against such as coÌ„moâ—ly your fellowes be here in England who dying for t eâ—sâ—n yet you wil canonize for holy Martyrs And S. Augustine in his first booke contra Epistolam Parmeniâ—ni Cap. septimo writing against some of your fellowes that presumed to be Martyrs he doeth say that euery one is not a Martyr that is punished by the Emperour or by the king for matters of Religion otherwise saieth he the Deuils might attribute vnto theÌ„selues the glorie of martyrdome because they suffered persecution at the Christian Emperours hands when throughout the worlde their Idoles were
philosophers and contrarily the trees may bee good as grafte vpon the true Catholique Religion and yet the fruites degenerate from the stocke Be it graunted that Christs meaning was no more generally to be taken in the one then in the other and that it followeth thereupon that euen as sometime a man through hypocrisie may speake well and thinke ill so a good tree may sometimes by some occasion haue some fruite not answering the goodnesse thereof intermingled with the good yet you shall neuer be able to proue but that Christes speech here is so generallie true as that alwaies a good tree bringeth forth good fruite and a bad tree bad fruite as alwaies it is true that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh at one time or other though at sometimes also and in some thinges the mouth be bridled For Christ doeth not deny but that euen of a good tree there may bee founde here and there a rotten apple a worme-eaten one or otherwise not answerable to the naturall fruite of that tree For hee knewe what imperfections there were and would bee alwaies founde in the best men neither doeth hee that saied Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh saie it would alwaies be so For he knewe how through hypocrisie oftentimes the abundance of filthie matter lying in the heart would bee dissembled It is sufficient for the verifying of these two Prouerbes generallie in that sence that Christ meant them that the good tree naturally bringeth forth good fruit and the bad bad fruit and that the abundance of the heart will make the mouth at sometimes bewray that which lieth in the heart let otherwise hypocrisie doe what it can And therefore you conclude more then your premises will beare For though it bee graunted you that the one prouerbe hath some limitations as well as the other yet it must bee onelie in maner as I haue saied Whereupon will neuer more followe that an ill tree may haue sometimes naturallie good fruite growing vpon it and a good tree bad fruite then it will euer be found false that at one time or other out of the abundance of the heart euerie mouth will speake And the examples you haue set downe are both vnfitte For neither were the workes of the heathen philosophers what shewe soeuer they had outwardly of goodnes good workes indeede nor euer will it be graunted you of any that can distinguish betwixt good and euill that a Catholique in your sence with doubtles with you is one of the Popish Religion that now is is a good tree The reason of the one is because howsoeuer the works of those philosophers had in them the matter of good workes in the cōformity they had to the outward actions commanded by the law yet they lacked the forme of good workes in that they neither proceeded from a right fountaine were done to a right ende nor in right maner and you know that forma dat esse rei the forme is that that causeth the thing to bee this or that and that it is writen whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne Romans 14 and it is impossible to please God without faith Heb. 11. which faith they were without The reasō of the other is that your religiō being naught Antichristian it selfe cannot make any man or woman a good tree but bad like it selfe for qualis causa talis effectus such as the cause is the effect will be Wherefore for any thing you haue saied as yet euery good tree will so bring forth good fruit and euerie bad tree bad fruit as that by their fruit they maie bee discerned And indeed cauill you to the contrary as much as you list this is most certaine all the difficultie is in knowing the good and bad fruit that Christ meant of and how alwaies to discerne the one from the other In my iudgement and I thinke likewise in the iudgement of euerie one that well weigheth Christes words and the circumstances thereof by the good fruit wee are to vnderstand pure religion ioined with an holie life by the bad fruit a bad religion and like life the good tree that beareth the former are onely the children of God whom he hath regenerated and iustified indeede in Christ Iesus the bad tree that beareth the later are those that remaine in their sinnes and vnder the burdē thereof not yet hauing had their eies truely opened to see the trueth nor their hearts effectually touched and taught to beleeue aright in Christ And these trees are to be discerned by sound triall and examination which of their fruites are iustified by the writē and vndoubted word of God and which not The XXXIIII Chapter IF that the sence of this prouerbe be harde for you to disgest I a◠content to staie vntill your stomacke be somewhat better assuring my selfe that you can interprete it no waie vnto your aduantage There is nothing more certaine then the good tree to beare good fruite if one doeth not make him change his owne nature but if one doe grafte vpon it some crabstocke or some other kinde of wilde fruite the tree can beare no other but crabs or wiledings euen so we Christian persons who are the trees of God planted by the pleasant fountaine of his grace and purged with the holy water of Baptisme to beare fruite at our season so that we take euer to prosper withall the dewe of his grace that planted vs I meane the faith of our sauiour Iesus Christ so long we beare good fruite as it is saied before alleadging the a The 5. you would say as before 3. of S. Iohn ill vnderstood by Iouinian he that is borne of God doeth not sinne for the generation of God doeth preserue him and the enemy of our health shall not touch him b If yo◠had lookt into the booke you should not haue found both these testimonies in one chapter for the first is in the fift this in the third And in the saied Chapter he saieth againe all men or euery man that is borne of God doeth not sinne for the seede of God is in him and he cannot sinne because be is borne of God By this it is not meant that Baptisme the which he doeth call the beeing borne c He speaketh of reall not simply of sacramentall regeneratiō of God doeth take awaie from man the power or libertie to doe euill for if he will degenerate from the grace that he hath receaued by the sacrament of regeneration and that in steede of growing graft vpon the stocke of the loue of God which is the true life that he will fructifie towards his death and destruction in this case hee is no more the sonne of God for as Christ saieth * John 8. If yee be the children of Abraham doe the workes of Abraham But as hee doeth continue and hath this good will which was taught by the Angell vnto the sheepheardes and that hee doeth continue
afterwardes in conclusion finally may so fall awaie that he become the childe of the Deuill and this is the second thing that I though good to admonish you and your reader of For this is also a most dangerous errour shaking al the certaine grouÌ„ds of our faith and therefore to our comforte it is plainely taught vs contrarie to this in the Scripture that the gifts and graces of God whereby are meant the giftes of regeneration are without repentance Rom. 11.29 and therefore whom Christ loueth once as his owne as doubtlesse he doeth all them that are new borne once indeede Iohn tels vs he loues to the ende Iohn 13.1 And Paul vpon this ground that he knew with whom God once went so farre as towardes them to shew his power and mercy in regenerating of them that he would neuer finallie forsake them but perfect in theÌ„ that good worke of his assures the Philippians that he that had begunne that good worke in them would performe it vntill the day of Iesus Christ cap. 1.6 And yet I doe not deny but such maie haue their falles and that in such sort that to their owne sence feeling and in the opinions of others they haue quite fallen from grace and all the good gifts of regeneration but yet if before they were not sacramentally onely but really in trueth new borne and clensed from their sinnes in Christ the spirit and graces of God in them were but in this case as the sunne hid from our eies by thicke cloudes and as fire raked vp in the ashes which God will cause to shine againe and to growe to a fire in them when hee in his good time hath caused the cloudes to vanish and hath remooued the ashes This you can holde to bee true in Peter notwithstanding his fall because Christ praied that his faith should not faile Luk. 22. why should you not then vpon Christes praier made generally for all his elect that his heauenly father would keepe them and that from euill Ioh. 17.15 conceiue the like of all those whoÌ„ God hath once sealed indeede with the peculiar seale of regeneration proper onely to his elect But it seemes you thinke you haue ground enough for this your opinion in that you see many that haue seemed to stand finally to fal and that you finde the promisses run vpon this condition if we perseuere vnto the end whereunto I answere that in the former you may be deceiued two waies either in taking them to haue stood indeede which yet neuer came vnto it or in condeÌ„ning them as finally to haue fallen when as it may be otherwise and as for the second I say that as it is certaine that the promisses runne vpon that condition so the Lord will giue all those grace to performe that conditioÌ„ that be once thus sealed to be his For nothing shal separate theÌ„ from the loue of God in Christ Iesus Rom. 8. such are kept by the power of god through faith vnto saluatioÌ„ 1. Pe. 1.5 You must therefore thirdly be admonished that indeede you doe misunderstaÌ„d Iohn the other testimonies to fortifie Iohns doctrin as daÌ„gerously as euer did IouiniaÌ„ Nouatus or any other if you take them so to be vnderstoode as it seemeth you doe that by these places wee are taught that none in any actuall sinne and hauing a minde to doe euill is in that meane while the childe of God but of the Deuill If this were true doctrine seeing it is writen that no man liueth sinneth not 1. King 8. no man can say his hart is cleane Pro. 20. but euen when we are at the best we must needs confesse that those good things that we would do we do not those euil thiÌ„gs that we would leaue vndone we doe Ro. 7. that if we say we haue no sin we deceiue our selues there is no truth in vs 1. Ioh. 1. therfore it is certaine that ther was neuer child of God yet but ofteÌ„ times he hath had a mind to doe euill and bene sometime in actuall sinne I say these thinges being most true because both Scripture and experience teach them so to be if this doctrine of yours be true also then so often as there is a purpose and performance of any actuall sinne and as long as that is found in man so often and so long he is the childe of the Deuill and not of God If this be thus if you knewe how farre actuall sinne streatcheth and weighed without dissembling how prone the best men are to fall I am fully perswaded there is none of you all that a whole day togither can haue assurance that you are any other but the children of the Deuill For if the Lorde should straitely marke what is done amisse and enter into iudgement with his seruants no man could for one daies space in trueth cleare himselfe of all actuall sinne committed either in word deede or thought by omitting good things commanded or doing ill things forbidden If in stead of saying in the meane while you had only saied therein and in that respect he is not the childe of God your speech might haue beene borne withall For indeed in the new borne though there be a new man yet as long as they liue they shall finde some reliques of the olde man remaâ—ning and so a law in their members rebelling against the law of the spirit Rom. 7. Gal. 5. by meanes wherof it commeth to passe that though sinne raigne not in their mortall bodies and they neuer commit sinne vnto death and transgresse with the whole man as the carnall men doe yet in respect of this old man that is left sinne dwelleth in them as a tyrant and getteth them now and then to doe him some seruice though not with the consent and liking of the new but it striuing against the same as it also euidently appeareth in the two foresaied Chapters Rom. 7. Gal. 5. wherein in which respect they may be saied not to be the children of God but in the meane while in that by the inner man these things that are done through the tyranny of the old man are not consented vnto but misliked striuen against by them therefore with Paul they comfort theÌ„selues say now if I doe that which I wold not it is no more I that do it but the sin that dwelleth in me RoÌ„ 7. with Iohn after that through the beholding of this their infirmity they haue coÌ„fessed that if they should say they had no sin they deceiued theÌ„selues there were no truth in theÌ„ they raise vp theÌ„selues againe saying if we acknowledge our sins he is faithful iust to forgiue vs our sin to clense vs from all vnrighteousnes 1. Ioh. 1. and so remaine still euen whiles they finde these battailes foiles risings againe in themselues the children of God For S. Iohn is not to be vnderstood to deny simply that the new borne sin but to deny that they
for such as worshipped them as that thereby it may most clearely appeare that you haue no stay nor moderatiō at all whatsoeuer you say in praying to them Thus then thou maiest see Christian Reader for all M. Albines sending of thee to reade Origen Chrysostome Augustine and Hierom for the maintenance of his praying to the Saints in Paradise that not onely they haue quite forsaken him therein but that also both Scripture they and a number of ancient fathers besides haue condemned that their praying vnto Saints for grosse idolatry The most thou seest that any of the fathers quoted by him for this haue saied that hath any soūd the way is that they thought it was not inconuenient to thinke that the Saints in heauen praied for the Saints aliue yet vpon the earth and that therby they did them some good which as I haue shewed thee by good reasons proueth not that therefore they are to be praied vnto thus of vs. But to conclude this matter euen touching this point I would haue thee to vnderstand that the first brochers hereof they of the ancient fathers that most seemed to bee resolued of it yet spake thereof but stammeringly and doubtfully For thou hast heard Origen onely say that he thought it was not incōuenient to think so and vpon the second Chapter to the Romans moouing that question whether the soules of the Saints departed doe any thing and labour for vs as the Angels doe or no he in conclusion determineth that if they doe that yet it is amongst Gods secretes and that it is a mystery not to be committed to paper And Augustine de curâ agendâ pro mortuis inclines to the negatiue and therefore to that end alleadgeth that Esa 63. Abraham knoweth vs not and Israel hath forgot vs. And though Nazianzene seeme with Origen and Cyprian to think they doe pray for vs and procure vs good yet where he shewes himselfe to be most of that mind as in his oration of Basil and in his epitaph of his father he vttereth it not as a resolute trueth whereof he was sure but aduouching it addeth as I think if I be not deceaued or if it be not too much to say so which argueth that he was not perswaded and resolued that it was a plaine trueth taught in the worde but that onelie it was thought to bee a thing probable and possible and therefore this must needes be a weake ground to build so massy and huge a building vpon as the popish praying to Saints cōmeth to To conclude therefore this point in this case notably hath Augustine saied whē the question is of a thing most obscure the certaine and plaine instructions of the diuine authority not helping vs to decide the matter let mans presumption stay it selfe doing nothing by inclining rather to the one side then another De pec meritis lib. 2. cap. 36. And againe seeing it is euidēt that they haue no ground for it in scripture which some of the best of themselues confesse with Augustine let vs say both of this and that which they would builde thereon of Christ or of his Church or of any thing else which apperteineth to faith or life if we but as Paul saied if an Angell from heauen should preach vnto you beside that which yee haue receiued in the scriptures of the law the gospel let him be accursed contra literas Petil. lib. 3. Cap. 6. And so vpon these premisses boldly let vs conclude and say with him Non sit nobis religio cultus hominū mortuorū de verâ religione cap. 55. let it bee no part of our religion to worship dead men For as he there addeth If they liued godly indeed they are not now in that minde that they would haue such honours giuen them of vs but God they would haue vs worship Now we are come to the last point of your 4 which is praying for the dead for the which you wil vs to read two places in Tertullian one in Cyprian two in Origen one in Chrysostome and three in Augustine which at your request I hauing done though I must needes confesse this your errour in some of these hath more countenance and allowance giuen it then the former had yet I hope by that I haue done with you you shal haue as little cause to brag that all these Doctours teach you your kinde of praying for the dead as any of the former things that you haue alleadged any of them for for some of these your authours in these places you quote doe not so much as mētion praying for the dead at all onely they speake of a certaine purging paine after this life that diuersely some in one sence some in an other But I see in perusing these quotations that your leasure could aford to set downe for this point others that diuers of your side vpon deepe deliberation purpose to handle the matter as seriously as they could haue to this end remēbred that to make a shew of great proofe whē you haue very smal any place that in any sence maketh mention of purging after this life that serueth you woulde make your reader beleeue not only to proue your fained purgatorie but also to proue your praying for the dead and againe any place in what sence soeuer that mētioneth praying for the dead that must needs proue both purgatory your maner of praying to relieue souls there Which because it is the thing whereby both you are abused wherby most fondly yet absurdly in this case you alwaies seeke to abuse your poore simple reader before I proceede any further to examine your quotations I must labour somewhat to acquaint him wt. First therfore let him marke what force there is in this kind of argumēts Origē or some other father speaks of some purging paine after this life ergo of the popish purgatorie Augustine speaketh vnconstantly or very doubtfully of a purging paine or place after this life ergo questionles there is such a third place as the papists imagin such purging there is as they teach And there is such a place ergo they that be there must and can be relieued there by the praiers of the lyuing or in some sort the dead are to be remēbred in our praiers ergo they in that place therby to be releiued For these are the very argumēts which are by the mainteiners of praier for the dead and purgatory cōfusedly iumbled togither out of the fathers Secōdly for the better espying of the weakenes of al these argumēts he must vnderstand how variably vncertainly the fathers haue spokē writē of purging after this life how far frō the popish sēce likewise he must be aduertised how diuers waies remembrance may be made hath beene for the dead by the fathers and yet not in their sence Concerning the first wherof because Origen Augustine are two that Albin hath especially here named by their mentioning of purging after
being on your side but in that they were of ours as they were and as I haue saied wee christianly perswade our selues that their soules are in heauen And you fearing belike for all your cauilling that touching these ancient doctours confessours and martyrs that this would be our answere because you knew it might iustly be so you were content quickely to giue ouer the pursuit of this question and to aske vs this what wee thinke in our conscience of those that maintained cōfessed your faith Religion whither they be condemned or no And to feare vs from saying they be vpon the necke of this you aske vs if it were so why then was the bloud of Christ shed affirming confidently that if this were so that then it had beene better that Christ had neuer suffered This indeede I doe know to be one of your common bugges whereby you seeke to make the simple affraide either to forsake you or to ioyne with vs saying when you see men about thus to doe what will you condemne all your forefathers And to this end with manie words you āplifie the goodnes of the forefathers what an vnchristian cruelty it is to cōdemne all our ancient forefathers Before I come to the answering of which obiection I cannot but tell you that in setting downe so bluntly boldly as you haue that if they that confessed and maintained your Religion be condemned that then it had beene better that Christ neuer had died you haue vttered grosse intollerable blasphemy For though none such should be saued by the death of Christ thousand thousands both haue bene and shal be saued therby better it were that al such as you meane should for euer be condemned then that this speech of yours had any trueth in it But to answer this your obiection taken frō the dangerousnes of condēning forefathers because by the nāe of thē you keep men as you doe in your Romish and Babilonical captiuity first the reader is to vnderstand that an argument takē frō forefathers simply without distinction but as you doe this of yours in matters of Religion is not good For Ez. 20. we read that the Lord saied thus vnto his people walke not in the preceps of your fathers neither obserue their maners nor defile your selues with their idols And Dauid saieth Ps 78. Let thē not be as their forefathers were a disobediēt rebellious generatiō c. And the like warning the people had Psal 95. Zach. 1. Ier. 11. Whereupō Peter telleth the Christians to whom he wrote that by the bloud of Christ they were redeemed frō the vaine cōuersation of their fathers 1. Pet. 1. If this argument had beene good when Christ came sent his Apostles abroad to preach the gospell to al natiōs our forefathers in all natiōs then did ill in receiuing the doctrine of the gospell For their forefathers for some 1000. yeares before had held professed mainteined heathenish paganisme And it seemeth that many of the heathē then vsed this very argument of yours to keepe men in paganisme still For such an obiectiō I read both made by thē answered by Peter as it is writē Clemētis lib. 5. recognitionū by Ignatius ad Philadelphēses by Augustin in quaest veteris noui testamēti quaest 114. By this reason saied Peter as Clemēt reports it If a mans father be a thiefe or a bawde the child must be no other To such as saied they would beleeue no other gospell thē they foūd their forefathers had Ignatius answereth my antiquity is Iesus Christ whō not to obey is manifest damnation That which was before saieth Augustine the Paganes say cānot be bad To whom he answereth saying as though antiquity may preiudice trueth For thus might murderers wantons adulterers other lewd liuers defend their wickednesses because they are old haue beene frō the beginning saieth he So that both scripture reasō the ancient fathers themselues teach vs that it is not alwaies safe to cōtinue in the Religion wherein our forefathers liued died and so easily we may perceiue that this your argument how cōmon soeuer it be with you is of no force For it hath beene the old argument of Pagans doubtles is at this day the chiefe argument that keepeth Turks Jewes from yeelding to the Gospell least then they should condemne all their forefathers But as your argument is naught so your antecedent is false also For albeit that our Religion differ from yours as it doeth yet farre is it from vs that therefore we condemne all our forefathers For first we know that frō Christ wel near 1000. yeares they thē that professed Christ for the most part liued died holding the foūdatiō many other principall points of religiō with vs therfore of their saluatiō we doubt not Secondly euer since howsoeuer a nūmber fell away frō the trueth seemed wholy to be yours yet we are perswaded we know it to be true especially since Petrus Vald his time who was 400. yeares ago there haue beene great knowen multitudes openly ioyning with vs in the chiefest points of our religion dissenting frō you as I haue shewed before And when there seemed to be fewest yet we beleeue that that God that could did preserue vnto himself in the litle kingdom of Israel in such a miserable time asking Ahabs time was 7000. that there had not bowed their knees to Baal that the God I say euē whē popery seemed to haue preuailed most according to the comfortable visions that Iohn had to that end Apoc. 7. 14 yet had preserued vnto him in al the kingdomes and prouinces of the world infinite numbers that yet neither in forehead nor hand would beare the marke of the beast of all these we hope well also Thirdly euen concerning such of our forefathers as seemed to the world to be of your religiō we thinke a number also are saued For euen amongst them there are .3 sortes to be cōsidered The first sort are they that liued and died in all your grosse and erronious opiniōs The second are they that though a long time they seemed to liue in them yet ere they died God caused to see the vanity thereof at least cōcerning your doctrine of iustificatiō so through the sight of their sins in his mercy he brought them to die protesting that they trusted not to be saued in part nor in whole by their owne works or by any other meanes but onely by his free mercy through Iesus Christ alone The third sort is of them which though they were yours for some outward ceremonies that they were contented to vse with you in that they held some other fond opinions with you yet neuer ioined with you indeed in seeking for saluation little or much by any thing that you taught them to put their trust in that way but only looked for beleeued to attaine vnto it for that which Christ
now honour them it was no errour at al in him and if it had beene that he had held but so I am fully persuaded that rather Hierom would haue commended him for it then otherwise But indeed your grosse honouring of them was not then so much as thought of Vigilantius his fault as it seemeth by Hieroms charging of him was that hee woulde not allowe that there should such cost be bestowed vpon their tombes and burials or that any such estimation or reuerend regard should bee had of their graues and sepulchers as then of loue towardes them and to stirre vp others to imitate them beganne to be vsed Wherein if he went too far wee ioine not with him For wee very well allow that there should be a decent and comelie buriall of them and we esteeme of their graues and other certaine monumentes of them as of thinges that appertaine to the deare children of God But with you to tie vertue either to the place of their buriall or to any such thing that they left behinde and that in such grosse maner as you haue done wee account it both folly and blasphemous impiety It may bee when you named Arrians you meant Aerians in whom you oft tell vs that to pray for the dead was condemned for an heresie But if that were your meaning wee tell you that Epiphanius writing of them saieth flatlie howsoeuer they were so accounted of some that praier for the dead hath no manifest ground in the Scriptures but rather leaned to the fashion and traditions of men as both of this and almost of all the pointes in controuersie betwixt you and vs Soto cōtra Brentium Lind. li. 4. suae panopliae towards the end thereof two great champions of your side haue also plainely confessed and so long you shall neuer be able to proue it an heresie Againe here you must be admonished that euery thing that an heretique is reported to haue held is not by by heresie For many sound opinions often times such haue retained and by that meanes haue the easilier preuailed to seduce men by their errours And therefore you and your fellowes also doe your readers wrong in making thē to thinke that because such an hereticke such an hereticke held this and that which we hold therfore we are heretickes For if you should speake to the purpose you should first proue the opinions that wee hold to be heresies and thē shew vs that they were held and cōdēned in such and such or at the least that the things that we hold were in them heretofore condemned for heresies But to be briefe you say if our Religion be the trueth thē there hath beene neuer a Christiā Doctour in the Church since Christ for all haue taught the contrary c. These are but your words and the falshood of this I haue made to appeare in sundry points already And I would to god the poor simple people could read their works indeede for then howsoeuer it please you here to brag to the contrary they should and would perceiue that you haue in this wounderfullie abused them For they should see that for the most and greatest questions betwixt you and vs they are flat on our side in those things wherein they seeme most to fauour you that yet euen therein there was and is very great difference betwixt you and them Wherfore your vehement exhortation that men should not follow vs to condemne all Christians that haue beene since Christ which taught alwaies yours condēned ours as heresy is sutable to the foūdation that is nothing but false vaine In like maner where you bring vs here as men to auoide your argument of the condemnation of forefathers that are so driuen to our shifts that we haue nothing to say for appeasing the people but this that their errours shall not bee imputed vnto them for that they did holde them of simple ignorāce hauing no better instruction in confuting this excuse you might haue spared your paines For you may remember that otherwise I haue blunted the edge of that argument And for my part I most willingly acknowledge that ignorance shall not nor cannot exēpt any from condemnation that know not if they be of yeares and otherwise capable of knowledge the Lord Iesus Christ aright to their saluation For I know it is writen that Christ shall come in flaming fire rendering vengeance vnto them that know not God and which obey not the gospell of Iesus Christ 2. Thes 1. and that howsoeuer by strong delusion vnder Antichrist mē shall be carried to beleeue lies yet in the iust iudgement of God because they receaued not the loue of the trueth they shal be damned for not beleeuing the trueth 2. Thess 2. But you say some haue vsed that excuse of them in conference with your selfe I warrant you not simply to excuse such as liued and died in an Antichristian faith that is looking to be saued not onely through the mercie of God in Christ Iesus but by other meanes also which can not stand together with a sound faith in Christ but such onely as either amongst the fathers were preserued from euer falling into this foūdamental errour or hauing fallen into it had growen to detest it to imbrace a faith seeking and finding in Christ alone the full cause of their saluation ere they died of which two sortes besides those whom God did cleane preserue from the infection of popery as hee did the 7000. in Elias his time from the idolatry of Baal euen in the greatest florish of poperie the Lord no doubt of it had infinite numbers For I my selfe in my daies haue knowen diuers in whom the leauen of popery hath beene so rooted that notwithstanding neuer so good meanes haue beene vsed in their health and prosperity to reforme them yet they haue perseuered in an opinion that they should either not be saued or that partly they should be saued for their own merits who yet in time of sickenes or some other misery hauing therby beene brought as it were before Gods presence and so to see the infinitenes of his iustice haue straight renounced all confidence in their owne works with wōderful detestation of their owne blasphemous and foolish conceit that euer they trusted in them or in any thing but onely in Christ Iesus who now when they knew them selues they would confesse was he that alone must saue them by that which he had done himselfe or else it would neuer be And if the Lord thus mercifully reclaimed some that wilfully and peeuishly a long time had resisted the trueth shining as it doeth now why should wee not much more conceiue that hee shewed that mercy vpon a number of our forefathers who dwelt in that errour of simplicity and ignorāce That therein in a number of things else they erred not you say but you shal neuer be able to proue Neither can you vpon our holding that they did erre conclude that either
of such vayne wordes as these aboue twenty times I am sure without any proofe at al therein repeated Indeed if in al your life you could proue but halfe so much as confidently here you set downe then you were a notable fellow indeede and then truely we would striue no longer with you But in the meane time seeing we know your speeches are such as you can neuer proue and that we are able against you both to proue the falshoode of yours and the trueth of our owne blame vs not if wee esteeme not your words Yet lest you should saie that these likewise are but words in vs as the former haue beene in you though I see no reason to the contrary but that our words containing a iust and true denial of yours were sufficient confutation thereof I say and will proue it that you shew your selfe a man past al shame in writing here as you doe that all the ancient Catholicke Church which hath continued visible since the comming of Christ vnto this day al the doctours of all the vniuersities all the Empires kingdomes priuate states throughout al the world are against vs for they haue al receiued honoured that doctrine that we count papisticall For first such is the newnes thereof as I haue plentifully shewed in diuers places already of this booke that none of all these for sundry 100. yeares were once euer acquainted therwith yea that diuers of your assertions which are the very principallest of your opinions as namely your dotcrine of Transubstantiation of your Popes being in authority aboue generall Councels and of denying the cuppe to the lay people are not yet of 400. yeares age and continuance And it is notoriously knowen that in the daies of Gregory the 9 about the yeare of Christ 1230 by occasion of iniury and oppression offered by the Pope to that Church that the Greeke Easterne Churches departed quite from the Church of Rome and neuer since though it hath beene oft attempted could be brought to hold communion therewith againe insomuch that in your conuenticle at Trent you haue condemned them for schismatical and heretical Churches And these Churches as it is noted in an ancient record in the Church of Herford differ from yours at the least in 29 articles And they holde yours excommunicate and an Apostata Church vnto this day And vnlesse your reading be very small you cannot be ignorant that Math Paris writeth that the Patriarch of Constantinople at the Councell of Lyons shortly after this breach shewed that of 30. bishoprickes in Greece the Pope had not three that then held communion with him and that all Antioch and the Empire of Romania to the gates of Constantinople was gone quite from him There is also extant in print in ancient record an Epistle writen about seuen yeares after this breach began in the yeare 1237 by one Germanus Patriarch of Constantinople vnto the Pope wherein not only he laboureth to make him see that the occasion therof was that he tooke more vpon him ouer those Churches then he should but amongst other argumēts to persuade him to see his folly he sheweth him that not onely the Greeke Churches themselues but that al so the Aethiopians Syrians Hiberians Alani Gothi Charari with innumerable people of Russia and the mighty kingdome of the Vulgarians held communion with his Church of Constantinople and so by occasion of this schisme had forsakē felowship with the Roman Church And the Cosmographers write that the iurisdiction of the Patriarch of Canstantinople reacheth so farre that all Greece Misia Belgaria Thrasia Walachia Moldauia Russia Muscouia the iles of the Aegaean sea and Asia the lesse bee vnder the same It is also reported by authours of good credit that at this day vnder the other Patriarchs of Antioch Alexandria Hierusalem and vnder the other in the dominions of Presbyter Iohn in Africa there be infinit numbers of Churches and Christians differing from yours and ioining with ours in manie thinges So that Churches also both in the East North and South and that of very great amplitude within the time that you speake of haue professed Christ and yet haue neuer beene acquainted with most or many at the least of the pointes for the which your religion is counted of vs Papisticall in all which there haue beene some doctours vniuersities Empires Princes and priuate men no doubt since Christ before you wrote that neither honoured nor receiued your papistical religiō Yea but that merueilously you ouershot your selfe you might haue remembred that within the time limited by you in these Westerne partes there haue beene euen vnder your Popes nose and in his greatest ruffe many doctours vniuersities and some Emperours kings and priuate estates that haue neither receiued nor so honoured your religiō which we cal papistical as here you would beare your reader in hand For euen in these parts and within the compasse of these times haue bene you know Wickliffe Hus and Luther vniuersities kingdomes good store haue had both your religion Church in defiance long before you wrote He that readeth but the stories of Philip Lodovicke the last French kings of Henry the 4 5. of the 2. Fredericks the 1 2 Emperours and the Cronicles of king Iohn here in England and of 2 or 3 of his successours he shal easily perceiue that much within the compasse of time that you speake of both Empires and Kingdomes with their Emperours and Kings haue beene far from making that reckoning of your popish Church and religion that you here bragge of or else doubtlesse you must needs confesse that your Popes haue beene vnreasonable creatures that haue so cursed and banned these men as they haue and which besides haue caused such infinite Christian bloud to be by warre shed to hamper them These things considered euen children may see not onely the vanity but grosse falshood of these your wordes For howsoeuer either here or else where in this your booke you would cause your reader to beleeue that your Romish Church is the catholicke Church of Christ euery one indeed may see that in trueth it is but a particuler and a petty Diocesse in comparison of the catholicke Church of Christ For the reader must vnderstand that the Church of Christ is called catholicke first because the religion that shee imbraceth is that which hath beene at al times will be to the end the true religiō of God secondly because the same Church in respect of the mēbers therof especially since the calling of the Gentiles is not to be limited or shut vp within the compasse of any particuler countries but may vniuersally be dispersed amongst all nations and in al countreyes where it pleaseth the Lord. In neither of which sences can the Romish Church be truly accounted catholick For neither is her doctrine that which the true Church of Christ embraced was in possessiō of for 4000 years more neither are the
and by Iohn Reuel 14. of the consumption of Antichrist and fall of Babylon shew onely that the Lorde would doe it by the spirit of his mouth in the preaching of the euerlasting Gospell That therefore is it onely that we are to approue our selues by to be the men that the Lorde will vse to that purpose And yet herein we take not vpon vs greater priuiledge then Christ For we accoūt that an especiall priuiledge of his that he was so to confirme his doctrine by miracles as that after the confirmation of it so by him his Apostles and the recording of it in the new Testament as it is it should thenceforth stand so firme that it should be an intollerable signe of incredulity amongst them especially that pretend they reuerence and receaue the scriptures as you would seeme to doe euer to require miracles more to confirme the same doctrine by You were not best therefore to perswade your selues in this sort the howsoeuer it be with your religion otherwise yet you shal be at the least without blame for your not receiuing of ours because we work no miracles Deceiue not your selues It is not with you now in respect of vs and our doctrine as it was then with the Iewes in respect of him and his Then that he was the particuler person of the Messias that therefore he being come the ceremonies of Moses law should cease and giue place to his sacraments c was a thing to be proued that by miracles because it was before prophecied whereas now those things long ago haue beene sufficiently confirmed and therefore we preaching vnto you no other doctrine but that so already confirmed and requiring no further to be credited then we can so proue our doctrine especially seeing the prophecies cōcerning these later daies shew rather y◠Antichrist and his Chaplaines shal come and seeke to preuaile by miracles then the Lords faithful pastours you haue no such reason as they had nor indeed any at all to require miracles at our hands But you say vnto vs as Augustine saied vnto the Manichees contra epist Fundam cap. 4. sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio with you there is no other sound but promise that you haue the truth Whereunto adde the words that immediatly follow and you are answered For he addeth which yet if you can make appeare is so cleare of your side that it may not be doubted of is to be preferred before all those things that otherwise holde me in the Catholique Church Be you of this minde once with Augustine and then learne this one other lesson of him do vnitate ecclesiae contra Petil. cap. 3. Nolo humanis documentis sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrari I will not haue demonstration made of the church by humane documents but by the diuine oracles And so say vnto vs as he saied there vnto Petilian let vs seeke the Church and so discusse our cause by the scriptures beholde they are common vnto vs both beholde there we haue knowen Christ beholde there we haue knowen the church c. Take this course once with vs and I doubt not whatsoeuer you brag to the contrary but we shall thereby be able to iustifie both our vocation and Religion and to make it appeare that we haue not onely a bragge of trueth with you and the Manichees but the very trueth it selfe And this being proued thē you must yeelde with Augustine that it is to be preferred before all other outward thinges whatsoeuer that haue kept you hitherto in an other Religion and church yea then you must confesse notwithstanding all your obiections otherwise against vs of nouelty paucity iars in opinion and whatsoeuer else yet it is your dueties to ioyne with vs in receauing of this trueth Wherefore vnlesse you will let all other bie matters go and enter once into this question with vs in earnest whether your Religion or ours be the trueth and for the triall thereof will stand to the scriptures interpreted according to the sound and alwaies vsed rules of interpreting them colour your refusing thus to doe with what colours possibly you can you too too grossely be wray the badnesse of your cause and euidently shewe that you onely seeke shifts hoales and corners to escape as long as you may the discredit therof And your owne frends will they nill they shal be inforced to see the same You conclude with prayer that we may drawe as neare you as we are farre from you and that we may turne to the flock of Christ the which both to your hurt and our owne you say we haue forsaken Insteede of Amen to yours I beseech the Lord of all mercies and father of our Lord Iesus Christ that it would please him of his infinit goodnes and mercy euen for his deare sonne Iesus sake to open the eies of your mindes and so to touch your hearts as that you may haue grace with vs to come out of Babylon and to leaue that garish whore of Rome with all her abhominations and so to ioyne with vs in the true communion of Saints and fellowship of the trueth and spirit that both you and we may dwell togither as brethren in one house agree and growe togither as members of one body rest togither as sheepe of one flocke vnder one father God almighty vnder one head shepheard Christ Iesus through the mighty working of the holy Ghost to Gods glory and our owne euerlasting comfort Amen FINIS A short answere to a new offer not published at the first when D. Fulke and Master Carter answered the 22. demands whereunto it is now annexed the ground and matter whereof is an enumeration of six certaine and assured signes and tokens as the offerer calleth them of Antichristians false prophets heretiques and schismatiques mentioned in diuerse places of the scripture COncerning these sixe signes welbeloued this is his offer that if by the learned protestāt they can be proued more aptly and truely to agree to him his fellowes of the commō knowen catholick church of Christ thē vnto the protestāts of so many sundry and diuers sects and congregations that then he wil submit yeelde recant and not before Learned protestant I take my selfe to be none howbeit finding as I did when I tooke first in hand to answer Iohn de Albines former discourse that the publisher thereof had therewithall published not only the offer of a proud papist to a learned protestant cōsisting of 22. challenges or demaunds long ago answered by the men aboue named but also with this new addition of these six signes and then not vnderstanding though it had beene thus abroad many years amōgst vs in English that any learned or vnlearned had vouchsafed to answer it though I thought it needles to answer againe the offer of 22. demaunds so wel answered by the foresaied mē before that the authour thereof neuer since had pleasure to reply I thought it yet
to be christians and of him onely and of his vndoubted spirit speaking vnto vs in the canonicall scriptures haue we learned our religion with which as far as we finde any man to agree we reuerence him as it becommeth vs in the Lord further we take not our selues bound to follow any man whatsoeuer he be That Puritans and Precisians haue brought the ancient Protestants of this land of all sortes to any such point by any such meanes as he speaketh of he speaketh both vntruely and slanderously For such as for their preposterous zeale and factious turbulent spirits amongst vs deserue so to be called and accounted neither are for number so many nor for credit so affected of the common people nor wincked at of the magestrats as he pretendeth But if ther were as many fond sectaries that haue arisen vp amongst vs these late yeares as this man and other of his fellowes sometime would haue men to beleeue as long yet as we for all that continue constant not onely in the very same religion that we were of when we first broke of from them but also in that which hath plentifull and most playne warrant both from the canonicall scriptures and al sound antiquity as we haue a thousand times shewed and yet still are willing and ready alwaies to doe why should they thus odiously be obiected against vs to disgrace either vs or our religion especially seeing wee are sory for it and shew our mislike thereof as wee doe May any man iustly disgrace the Apostles and the Apostolique churches for that euen in their times there arose so many sectaries and heretiques amongst the Churches planted by them as both by their owne writings and other Ecclesiasticall histories it is notoriously knowen there did Hath not Christ euen of purpose to preuent all offence taking hereat compared his kingdome Matth. 13. to a field wherein the good seeds-man hauing sowen good wheat the enuious man so soweth his tares that they come vp togither with the wheat and so will doe vnto the haruest To let vaine words and brags go let thē proue but once any of them or all of them togither either that their religion is the plaine way of saluation beaten by our forefathers for these 1500. yeares past or that ours is not that very trueth that Christ and his Apostles taught as a perpetual trueth for the true church constantly to hold to the worlds end and we will striue with them no lōger But as this is a matter too hard heauy for them so they are content to let it alone and with fallacies vaine words to trie if they can beguile the simple people and bring them to a misliking of that which to mislike indeede they are not able to giue them one sound reason And therefore to conclude that both beginning ending and alwaies this mā may be like himselfe he taketh it for graunted that their religion is the sound catholique faith that the martyr Sebastian meant by his loafe which broken and broken againe after it was once well made and baked by sectaries heretiques as he told Genserichus the tyrant would neuer become better and that ours is but a breaking of it to make it better againe which will neuer be Whereas we constantly hold affirme that we may iustly say to all papists euen as Sebastian saied to that tyrant For the loafe that we feed on and would haue all others to feed on with vs we are able to proue is that the graine whereof Christ himselfe by his faithfull seruants hath sowen in the sound field of the canonical scriptures which he himselfe hath ground kneaden baked for vs and for all his children And likewise we are able to proue that this fine white loafe of the Lords own preparing alwaies lying ready in the storehouse of his writen word the Romish church hath a long time doth stil as much loath as euer the children of Israel did Manna And therefore as they preferred in their conceits garlicke leekes onions the flesh-pots of Egypt before that heauēly food so hath she and doeth she a massiue loafe the corne whereof must not come onely out of the foresaied field of the Lord for then it would haue no fauour with them but in great part out of the rotten field of mens traditions inuentions before the pure white loafe of the lords own making Wherefore to conclude all his speech or exhortation groūded vpon this story out of Victor de persecutione Vandalorum any man may see we might farre more iustly vse against thēselues of the Romish Church to persuade them as they regard their owne saluation c. to content themselues with vs with this Sebastians loafe of the first and best making I haue thus thou seest good reader but briefly past ouer these things and the rather I haue so done first because I found no matter in them but grounded vpon shameles begging of that which is most in question and secondly because in my answere to Albine I had vpon occasion giuen me by him already answered al or most of his assumptions against vs in the applying of these signes vnto vs. But lastly by view of an answere made at large by master Crowley both to the 22. demaunds and these six signes also that came to my hands since my finishing of this answere of mine I see if it had beene vndone I might well haue spared al my labour herein If therefore thou desirest any further answer concerning any of these I refer thee to him And thus I take my leaue of thee beseeching the Lord now and euer to blesse both thee and me and heartily praying thee to remember me alwaies in thy godly prayers to God to whom be all glory praise and dominion now and euer Thine in the Lord Thomas Sparke A Table whereby readily to finde out the principal matters contained in the former answere to Albine or any of his fauourers wherein because vntill thou commest to the answere to Albine himselfe the pages are not figured in the top as in the rest for any thing before handled the page of the letter in the bottome of those leaues whereof there are 16 for euery letter is noted for thy direction A. Abbeyes why and how suppressed pa. 287. Albine conuicted of blasphemy p. 95. 96. 186. 375. 378. Albine sheweth himselfe to haue beene of a profane spirit 269. Albines publishers methode in his epistle to the reader discouered b. p. 11. 12. 13. Albines owne methode and the folly thereof laied open E. 4 5. 6 Albines cunning in running from the question 6 7 9. 10. 11. c. Albine notorious in abusing scriptures 2. 3. 36. 37. Albine worthy to be famous for abusing of fathers 47. 51. 85. 86. 119. c. 126. c. 131 134 156. ca p. 37. through out Antiquity protestants rather haue then papists and true antiquity protestants stand vnto 102. 158. c. Auricular confession dangerous E. p.
but chose for choosing E. 1. 26 them for then 8. 31 them for then 9. 29. pal for paul p. 15. of the booke r Lando for lando and so euer 17. 12 Bale for he and l. 20 Boniface for Gregory l. 21 Sicilia and so alwaies 30. Constantius for Constantine l. 35. 25 for 15. 47. 13 Portunatian Paulina 64. 32 Aelfricke for Alcuinus l. 34 put out Aelâ—ricke 78. 14 quam for quae l. 28. wrote for wrought 81. 16 for he r Aug most truely 89. 25â— for it doth 101. 19 put out all 111. r 24. for 4. 1. for 4. l. 29. 131. r Bathâ—heba 133. 7 r loialty 142. 31 whom for wheÌ„ 146. 9 for for from 156. 29 r of for if 162. 28 r Tatianists 170. 9 r as for and. 171. 8 put in beene next haue 172. 33. shun for shew 180. 26. your for you 181. 1. put in you cast before Cal. 189. 25. need for haue 190. 11. answered for enforced 202. 3 the for that 203. r phygelus l. 35 thus for this 204. 33 doe for to 213. 34 of for oft 215. 12 next trueth put in that 216 21 r and next followed 218. 27 r c. for 220. r Marcionites l. 38. 229 13 the for their 230 r Selencian l. 33. 232. 11 put in and next held 240. 38 r 18. for 15. 245. 25 next confute put out them 246. 25 after for after 253. r Peucer for pencer l. 37. so for to 262. 23 r scriptures 284. 20 for it next else r the spirit l. 21. put in in next except 306. 26 r them for then 110. 40 r taking for take 311. 22. euils for wel l. 30. either for other 312. 10 so for to l. 23. case for cause l. 21. aliqua for antiqua 317. 8. either for other 320. 35 Hieremy for Hierom. 322. 2 with for which it and l. 30. put out this 323. 11 r. seuerely for seuerally 331. 27. vs for vs. l. 29. put out ere 339. 21 but for both and l. 34. put in to them before thus 342. 33. women for woman 344. 34. aske for asked 347. 11. put in them next before the. l. 14. put out that l. 23 r dâ—ated for doubted 348. l. last put next to life not onelie 350. 33. thy for the. l. 39. that for the. 353. 14. r that for the and l. 29. r fond for sound 355. r Mercia for Mercta 357. r Dennis for Demus 362. 11. chastity for charity l 22. r. Furnitanorum l. 29. r Geminius for Heminius 365. 24. r we for he 369. 15. knew for know 374. 15. so for to 377. 37. feare for seare 394. 31. communion for common 396. 21. Constantius for Constantine p. 240. l. last next faith and put in religion vntil within these 60. yeares or thereabout it is but a vaine Some other smal faults in the notes vpon Albine in pointing and otherwise especially in taking one letter for another in some proper names there be but because they are such as either will not trouble the reader at all or that most easily of himselfe he maie correct they were not here set downe This onelie further Christian reader the authour desireth thee that in steede of the 8 9. lines of the 112. page thou wouldest read 2. booke to king Trasimund Aug. ep 57. ad Dardanum and Vigilius against Eutiches lib. 4. cap. 4. so vrge the veritie localitie and circumscriptibleâ—es of Christs 〈◊〉 maâ—e bodie that therewith by no meanes your doctrine of transubstantiation can stand