imagine I write so in this Argument as I have before my Eyes the Account I shall one Day render for my Intention and Regard to Truth in the Management of it I look on my self as liable to Error as others but this I am sure of I would neither impose on you my self nor any body and should be very glad to have the Truth in this Point clearly establish'd and therefore it is I desire you again to examine whether all the Ends you name to be intended by your Use of Force do in effect when Force is to be your way put in Practice reach any farther than bare outward Conformity Pray consider whether it be not that whiâ—…h makes you so shy of the term Dissenters which you tell me is mine not your Word Since none are by your Scheme to be punished but those who do not conform to the National Religion Diffenters I think is the proper Name to call them by and I can see no reason you have to boggle at it unless your Opinion has something in it you are unwilling should be spoke out and call'd by its right Name But whether you like it or no Persecution and Persecution of Dissenters are Names that belong to it as it stands now And now I think I may leave you your Question wherein you ask But cannot Dissenters be punished for not being of the National Religion as the Fault and yet only to make them consider as the End for which they are punished To be answered by your self or to be used again where you think there is any need of so nice a Distinction as between the Fault for which Men are punished by Laws and the End for which they are punished For to me I confess it is hard to find any other immediate End of Punishment in the Intention of humane Laws but the Amendment of the Fault punished though it may be subordinate to other and remoter Ends. If the Law be only to punish Non-conformity one may truly say to cure that Fault or to produce Conformity is the End of that Law and there iâ—… nothing else immediately aimed at by that Law but Conformity and whatever else it tends to as an End must be only as a Consequence of Conformity whâ—…ther it be Edisication Increase of Charity or saving of Souls or whatever else may be thought a Consequence of Conformity So that in a Law which with Penalties requires Conformity and nothing else oâ—…e cannot say properly I think that Consideration is the End of that Law unless Consideration be a Consâ—…quence of Conformity to which Conformity is subordinate and does naturally conduce or else is necessary to it To my arguing that it is uâ—…just as well as impracticable you reply Where the National Church is the true Church of God â—…o which all Men ought to join themselves and sufficient Evidence is offered to convince Men that it 〈◊〉 so There it is a Fault to be out of the National Church because it is a Fault not to be convinced that the National Church is that true Church of God And therefore since there Mens not being so convinced can only be imputed to their not considering as they ought the Evidence which is â—…ffered to convince them it cannot be unjust to punish them to make them so to consider it Pray tell me which is a Man's Duty to be of the National Church 〈◊〉 or to be â—…onvinced first that its Religion is â—…ue and then to be of it If it be his Duty to be convinced 〈◊〉 why then do you punish him for not being of it when it is his Duty to be â—…onvinced of the Truth of its Religion before it is his Duty to be of it If you say it is his Duty to be of it first why then is not â—…orce used to him afterwards though he be still ignorant and unconvinced But you answer It is his Fault not to be convinced What every one's Fault every where No you â—…imit it to Places where sufficient Evidence is offered to convince Men that the National Church is the true Church of God To which pray let me add the National Church is so the true Church of God that no body out of its Communion can imbrace the Truth that must save him or be in the way to Salvation For if a Man may be in the way to Salvation out of the National Church he is enough in the true Church and needs no Force to bring him into any other For when a Man is in the way to Salvation there is no Necessity of Force to bring him into any Church of any Denomination in order to his Salvation So that not to be of the National Church though true will not be a Fault which the Magistrate has a right to punish until sufficient Evidence is offered to prove that a Man cannot be saved out of it Now since you tell us that by sufficient Evidence you mean such as will certainly win Assent when you have offer'd such Evidence to convince Men that the National Church any where is so the true Church that Men cannot be saved out of its Communion I think I may allow them to be so faulty as to deserve what Punishment you shall think sit If you hope to mend the matter by the following Words where you say that where such Evidence is offered there Mens not being convinced can only be imputed to Mens not considering as they ought they will not help you For to consider as they ought being by your own Interpretation to consider so as not to reject then your Answer amounts to just thus much That it is a Fault not to be convinced that the National Church is the true Church of God where sufficient Evidence is offered to convince Men that it is so Sufficient Evidence is such as will certainly gain Assent with thâ—…se who consider as they ought i. e. who consider so as not to reject or to be moved heartily to imbrace which I think is to be convinced Who can have the Heart now to deny any of this Can there be any thing surer than that Mens not being convinc'd is to be imputed to them if they are not convinc'd where such Evidence is offered to them as does convince them And to punish all such you have my free Consent Whether all you say have any thing more in it than this I appeal to my Readers and should willingly do it to you did not I fear that the jumbling of those good and plausible Words in your Head of sufficient Evidence consider as one ought c. might a little jargogle your Thoughts and lead you hood-wink'd the round of your own beaten Circle This is a Danger those are much exposed to who accustom themselves to relative and doubtful terms and so put together that though asunder they signify something yet when their meaning comes to be cast up as they are placed it amounts to just nothing You go on What
has performed what your Punishment was designed for and has considered but yet remains a Dissenter For I may justly suppose and you must grant that a Man may remain a Dissenter after all the Consideration your moderate Penalties can bring him to when we see great Punishments even those Severities you disown as too great are not able to make Men consider so far as to be convinced and brought over to the National Church If your Punishments may not be 〈◊〉 on Men to make them consider who have or may have considered already for ought you know then Dissenters are never to be once punished no more than any other sort of Men. If Dissenters are to be punished to make them consider whether they have considered or no then their Punishments though they do consider must never cease as long as they are Dissenters which whether it be to punish them only to bring them to consider let all Men judg This I am sure Punishments in your Method must either never begin upon Dissenters or never cease And so pretend Moderation if you please the Punishments which your Method requires must be either very immoderate or none at all But to this you say nothing only for the adjusting the Length of your Punishments and therein vindicating the Consistency and Practicableness of your Scheme you tell us That as long as Men reject the true Religion duly proposed to them so long they offend and deserve Punishment and therefore it is but just that so long they should be left liable to it You promised to answer to this Question amongst others plainly and directly The Question is How long they are to be punished And your Answer is It is but just that so long they should be liable to Punishment This extraordinary Caution in speaking out if it were not very natural to you would be apt to make one suspect it was accommodated more to some Difficulties of your Scheme than to your Promise of answering plainly and directly or possibly you thought it would not agree to that Character of Moderation you assume to own that all the Penal Laws which were lately here in Force and whose Relaxation you bemoan should be constantly put in Execution But your Moderation in this Point comes too late For as your Charity as you tell us in the next Paragraph requires that they be kept subject to Penalties So the watchful Charity of others in this Age hath found out ways to incourage Informers and put it out of the Magistrate's Moderation to stop the Execution of the Law against Dissenters if he should be inclined to it We will therefore take it for granted that if Penal Laws be made concerning Religion for more Zeal usually animates them than others they will be put in Execution and indeed I have heard it argued to be very absurd to make or continue Laws that are not constantly put in Execution And now to shew you how well your Answer consists with other Parts of your Scheme I shall need only to mind you that if Men must be punished as long as they reject the true Religion those who punish them must be Judges what is the true Religion But this Objection with some other to which this Pâ—…rt of your Answer is obnoxious having been made to you more at large elsewhere I shall here omit and proceed to other Parts of your Answer You begin with your Reason for the Answer you afterwards give us in the Words I last quoted Your Reason runs thus For certainly nothing is more reasonable than that Men should be subject to Punishment as long as they continue to offâ—…nd And as long as Men reject the true Religion tender'd them with sufficient Evidence of the Truth of it so long 't is certain they offend It is certainly very reasonable that Men should be subject to Punishment from those they offend as long as they continue to offend But it will not from hence follow that those who offend God are always subject to Punishment from Men. For if they be why does not the Magistrate punish Envy Hatred and Malice and all Uncharitableness If you answer because they are not capable of Judicial Proofs I think I may say 't is as easy to prove a Man guilty of Envy Hatred or Uncharitableness as it is to prove him guilty of rejecting the true Religion tender'd him with sufficient Evidence of the Truth of it But if it be his Duty to punish all Offences against God why does the Magistrate never punish Lying which is an Offence against God and is an Offence capable of being judicially proved It is plain therefore that it is not the Sense of all Mankind that it is the Magistrate's Duty to punish all Offences against God and where it is not his Duty to use Force you will grant the Magistrate is not to use it in Matters of Religion because where it is necessary it is his Duty to use it but where it is not necessary you your self say it is not lawful It would be convenient therefore for you to reform your Proposition from that loose Generality it now is in and then prove it before it can be allowed you to be to your Purpose though it be never so true that you know not a greater Crime a Man can be guilty of than rejecting the true Religion You go on with your Proof that so long as Men reject the true Religion c. so long they offend and consequently may justly be punished Because say you it is impossible for any Man innocently to reject the true Religion so tender'd to him For whoever rejects that Religion so tender'd does either apprehend and perceive the Truth of it or he does not If he does I know not what greater Crime any Man can be guilty of If he does not perceive the Truth of it there is no Account to be given of that but either that he shuts his Eyes against the Evidence which is offer'd him and will not at all consider it or that he does not consider it as he ought viz. with such Care as is requisite and with a sincere Desire to learn the Truth either of which does manifestly involve him in Guilt To say here that a Man who has the true Religion proposed to him with sufficient Evidence of its Truth may consider it as he ought or do his utmost in considering and yet not perceive the Truth of it is neither more nor less than to say that sufficient Evidence is not sufficient Evidence For what does any Man mean by sufficient Evidence but such as will certainly win Assent where-ever it is duly considered I shall not trouble my self here to examine when requisite care duly considered and such other Words which bring one back to the same Place from whence one set out are cast up whether all this fine Reasoning will amount to any thing but begging what is in the Question But shall only tell you that what you say here
it will then infallibly cure Whom All that are not incurable by it And so will a Pippin-Posset eating Fish in Lent or a Presbyterian Lecture certainly cure all that are not incurable by them For I am sure you do not mean it will cure all but those who are absolutely incurable Because you your self allow one Means left of Cure when yours will not do viz. The Grace of God Your Words are What Means is there left except the Grace of God to reduce them but to lâ—…y Thorns and Briars in their Way And here also in the Place we were considering you tell us The Incurable are to be lest to God Whereby if you mean they are to be left to those Means he has ordained for Mens Conversion and Salvation yours must never be made use of For he indeed has prescribed Preaching and Hearing of his Word but as for those who will not hear I do not find any where that he has commanded they should be compell'd or beaten to it I must beg my Reader 's Pardon sor so long a Repetition which I was forced to that he might be Judg whether what I there said either deserves no Answer or be fully answered in that Paragraph where you undertake to vindicate your Method from all Impracticableness and Inconsistency chargeable upon it in reference to the End for which you would have Men punished Your Words are For what By which you say you perceive I mean â—…vo things For sometimes I speak of the Fault and sometimes of the End for which Men are to be punished and sometimes I plainly confound them Now if it be inquired For what Fault Men are to be punished you answer For rejecting the true Religion after sufficient Evidence tender'd them of the Truth of it Which certainly is a Fault and deserves Punishment But if I inquire for what End such as do reject the True Religion are to be punished you say To bring them to imbrace the True Religion and in order to that to bring them to consider and that carefully and impartially the Evidence which is offered to convince them of the Truth of it Which are undeniably just and excellent Ends and which through God's Blessing have often been procured and may yet be procured by convenient Penalties inflicted for that purpose Nor do you know of any thing I say against any part of this which is not already answered Whether I in this confound two things distinct or you distinguish where there is no difference the Reader may judg by what I have said elsewhere I shall here only consider the Ends of Punishing you here again in your Reply to me assign and those as I find them scattered are these Sometimes you speak of this End as if it were barely to gain a hearing to those who by Prayers and Intreaty cannot and those may be the Preachers of any Religion But I suppose you mean the Preachers of the True Religion And who I beseech you must be Judg of that Where the Law provides sufficient Means of Instruction for all as well as Punishment for Dissenters it is plain to all concerned that the Punishment is intended to make them consider What The Means the Law provides for their Instruction Who then is Judg of what they are to be instructed in and the Means of Instruction but the Law-maker It is to bring Men to hearken to Instruction From whom From any body And to consider and examine Matters of Religion as they ought to do and to bring those who are out of the right Way to hear consider and imbrace the Truth When is this End attained and the Penalties which are the Means to this End taken off When a Man conforms to the National Church And who then is Judg of what is the Truth to be imbraced but the Magistrate It is to bring Men to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince them but which without being forced they would not consider And when have they done this When they have once conformed for after that there is no Force used to make them consider farther It is to make Men consider as they ought and that you tell us is so to consider as to be moved heartily to imbrace and not to reject Truth necessary to Salvation And when is the Magistrate that has the care of Mens Souls and does all this for their Salvation satisfied that they have so considered As soon as they outwardly join in Communion with the National Church It is to bring Men to consider and examine those Controversies which they are bound to consider and examine i. e. those wherein they cannot err without dishonouring God and indangering their own and other Mens Salvations And to study the True Religion with such Care and Diligence as they might and ought to use and with an honest Mind And when in your Opinion is it presumable that any Man has done all this Even when he is in the Communion of your Church It is to cure Mens unreasonable Prejudices and Refractoriness against and Aversion to the True Religion Whereof none retain the least Tincture or Suspicion who are once got within the Pale of your Church It is to bring Men into the right Way into the Way of Salvation which Force does when it has conducted them within the Church-Porch and there leaves them It is to bring Men to imbrace the Truth that must save them And here in the Paragraph wherein you pretend to tell us for what Force is to be used you say It is to bring Men to imbrace the true Religion and in order to that to bring them to consider and that carefully and impartially the Evidence which is offered to convince them of the Truth of it which as you say are undeniable just and excellent Ends but yet such as Force in your Method can never practically be made a Means to without supposing what you say you have no need to suppose viz. that your Religion is the true unless you had rather every where to leave it to the Magistrate to judg which is the right Way what is the true Religion which Supposition I imagine will less accommodate you than the other But take which of them you will you must add this other Supposition to it harder to be granted you than either of the former viz. That those who conform to your Church here if you make your self the Judg or to the National Church any where if you make the Magistrate Judg of the Truth that must save Men and those only have attained these Ends. The Magistrate you say is obliged to do what in him lies to bring all his Subjects to examine carefully and impartially Matters of Religion and to consider them as they ought i. e. so as to imbroce the Truth that must save them The proper and necessary Means you say to attain these Ends is
should quit their Lusts and heartily imbrace the true Religion which iâ—… incompatible with them or else that they should avoid the Force and retain their Lusts To say the former of these is to say that it is presumable that they will quit their Lusts and heartily imbrace the true Religion for its own sake for he that heartily imbraces the true Religion because of a Force which he knows he can avoid at Pleasure without quitting his Lusts cannot be said so to imbrace it because of that Force Since a Force he can avoid without quitting his Lusts cannot be said to assist Truth in making him quit them For in this Truth has no Assistance from it at all So that this iâ—… to say there is no need of Force at all in the Case Take a coâ—…tous Wretch whose Heart is so set upon Money that he would give his First-born to save his Bags who is pursued by the Force of the Magistrate to an Arrest and compelled to hear what is alledg'd against him and the Prosecution of the Law threatning Imprisonment or other Punishment if he do not pay the just Debt which is demanded of him If he enters himself in â—…he Kiâ—…g's Bench where he can enjoy his Freedom without paying the Debt and parting with his Money will you say that it is presumable he did it to pay the Dâ—…bt and not to avoid the Force of the Law The Lust of the Flesh and Pride of Life are as strong and prevalent as the Lust of the Eye And if you will deliberately say again that it is presumable that Men are driven by Force to consider so as to part with their Lusts when no more is known of them but that they do what discharges them from the Force without any Necessity of parting with their Lusts I think I shall have occasion to send you to my Pagans and Mahometans but shall have no need to say any thing more to you of this matter my self I agree with you that there is but one only true Religion I agree too that that one only true Religion is professed and held in the Church of England and yet I deny if Force may be used to bring Men to that true Religion that upon your Principles it can lawfully be used to bring Men to the National Religion in England as established by Law because Force according to your own Rule being only lawful because it is necessary and therefore unfit to be used where not necessary i. e. necessary to bring Men to Salvation it can never be lawful to be used to bring a Man to any thing that is not necessary to Salvation as I have more fully shewn in another Place If therefore in the National Religion of England there be any thing put in as necessary to Communion that is though true yet not necessary to Salvation Force cannot be lawfully used to bring Men to that Communion though the thing so required in it self may perhaps be true There be a great many Truths contained in Scripture which a Man may be ignorant of and consequently not believe without any Danger to his Salvation or else very few would be capable of Salvation for I think I may truly say there was never any one but he that was the Wisdom of the Father who was not ignorant of some and mistaken in others of them To bring Men therefore to imbrace such Truths the Use of Force by your own Rule cannot be lawful because the Belief or Knowledg of those Truths themselves not being necessary to Salvation there can be no Necessity Men should be brought to imbrace them and so no Necessity to use Force to bring Men to imbrace them The only true Religion which is necessary to Salvation may in one National Church have that joined with it which in it self is manifestly false and repugnant to Salvation in such a Communion no Man can join without quitting the way of Salvation In another National Church with this only true Religion may be joined what is neither repugnant nor necessary to Salvation and of such there may be several Churches differing one from another in Confessions Ceremonies and Discipline which are usually call'd different Religions with either or each of which a good Man if satisfied in his own Mind may communicate without Danger whilst another not satisfied in Conscience concerning something in the Doctrine Discipline or Worship cannot safely nor without Sin communicate with this or that of them Nor can Force be lawfully used on your Principles to bring any Man to either of them because such things are required to their Communion which not being requisite to Salvation Men may seriously and conscientiously differ and be in doubt about without indangering their Souls That which here raises a Noise and gives a Credit to it whereby many are misled into an unwarrantable Zeal is that these are called different Religions and every one thinking his own the true the only true condemns all the rest as false Religions Whereas those who hold all things necessary to Salvation and add not thereto any thing in Doctrine Discipline or Worship inconsistent with Salvation are of one and the same Religion though divided into different Societies or Churches under different Forms which whether the Passion and Polity of designing or the sober and pious Intention of well-meaning Men set up they are no other than the Contrivances of Men and such they ought to be esteemed in whatsoever is required in them which God has not made necessary to Salvation however in its own Nature it may be indifferent lawful or true For none of the Articles or Confessions of any Church that I know containing in them all the Truths of Religion though they contain some that are not necessary to Salvation to garble thus the Truths of Religion and by their own Authority take some not necessary to Salvation and make them the terms of Communion and leave out others as necessary to be known and believed is purely the Contrivance of Men God never having appointed any such distinguishing System nor as I have shew'd can Force upon your Principles lawfully be used to bring Men to imbrace it Concerning Ceremonies I shall here only ask you whether you think Kneeling at the Lord's Supper or the Cross in Baptism are necessary to Salvation I mention these as having been matter of great Scrâ—…ple if you will not say they are how can you say that Force can be lawfully used to bring Men into a Communion to which these are made necessary If you say Kneeling is necessary to a decent Uniformity for of the Cross in Baptism I have spoken elsewhere though that should be true yet 't is an Argument you cannot use for it if you are of the Church of England for if a decent Uniformity may be well enough preserved without kneeling at Prayer where Decency requires it at least as much as at receiving the Sacrament why may it not well enough be preserved without kneeling
which without being forced they would not consider To bring Men to that Consideration which nothing else but Force besides the extraordinary Grace of God would bring them to To make Men good Christians To make Men receive Instruction To cure their Aversion to the true Religion To bring Men to consider and examine the Controversies which they are bound to consider and examine i. e. those wherein they cannot err without dishonouring God and endangering their own and other Mens eternal Salvation To weigh Matters of Religion carefully and impartially To bring Men to the true Religion and to Salvation That then Force is not applied to all the Subjects for these Ends I think you will not deny These are the Ends for which you tell us in the Places quoted that Force is to be used in Matters of Religion 'T is by its Vsefulness and Necessity to those Ends that you tell us the Magistrate is authorized and obliged to use Force in Matters of 〈◊〉 Now if all these Ends be not attained by a bare 〈◊〉 and yet if by a bare Conformity Men are wholly exempt from all Force and Penalties in Matters of Religion will you say that for these Ends Force is applied to all the Magistrate's Subjects If you will I must send you to my Pagans and 〈◊〉 for a little Conscience and Modesty If you 〈◊〉 Force 〈◊〉 not 〈◊〉 to all for these Ends notwithstanding any Laws obliging all to Conformity you must also confess 〈◊〉 what you say concerning the Laws being general is nothing to the Purpose since all that are under Penalties for not 〈◊〉 are not under any Penalties for Ignorance Irreligion or the want of those Ends for which you say Penalties are useful and necessary You go on And therefore if such Persons profane the Sacrament to keep their Places or to obtain Licences to sell Ale this is an horrible Wickedness I 〈◊〉 them not But it is their own and they alone must answer for it Yes and those who threatned poor ignorant and irreligious Ale-sellers whose Livelihood it was to take away their Licences if they did not conform and receive the Sacrament may be thought perhaps to have something to answer for You add But it is very unjust to impute it to those who make such Laws and use such Force or to say that they prostitute holy things and drive Men to profane them Nor is it just to insinuate in your Answer as if that had been said which was not But if it be true that a poor ignorant loose irreligious Wretch should be threatned to be turn'd out of his Calling and Livelihood if he would not take the Sacrament May it not be said these holy things have been so low prostituted And if this be not profaning them pray tell me what is This I think may be said without Injustice to any body that it does not appear that those who make strict Laws for Conformity and take no Care to have it examined upon what Grounds Men conform are not very much concern'd that Mens Understandings should be convinced And though you go on to say that they design by their Laws to do what lies in them to make Men good Christians That will scarce be believed if what you say be true that Force is necessary to bring those who cannot be otherwise brought to it to study the true Religion with such Care and Diligence as they might and ought to use and with an honest Mind And yet we see a great part or any of those who are ignorant in the true Religion have no such Force applied to them especially since you tell us in the same Place that no Man ever studied the true Religion with such Care and Diligence as he might and ought to use and with an honest Mind but he was convinced of the Truth of it If then Force and Penalties can produce that Study Care Diligence and honest Mind which will produce Knowledg and Conviction and that as you say in the following Words make good Men I ask you if there be found in the Communion of the Church exempt from Force upon the Account of Religion ignorant irreligious ill Men and that to speak moderately not in great Disproportion fewer than amongst the Nonconformists will you believe your self when you say the Magistrates do by their Laws all that in them lies to make them good Christians when they use not that Force to them which you not I say is necessary and that they are where it is necessary obliged to use And therefore I give you leave to repeat again the Words you subjoin here But if after all they i. e. the Magistrates can do wicked and godless Men will still resolve to be so they will be so and I know not who but God Almighty can help it But this being spoken of Conformists on whom the Magistrates lay no Penalties use no Force for Religion give me leave to mind you of the Ingenuity of one of my Pagans or Mahometans You tell us That the Usefulness of Force to make Scholars learn authorizes Schoolmasters to use it And would you not think a Schoolmaster discharged his Duty well and had a great Care of their Learning who used his Rod only to bring Boys to School but if they come there once a Week whether they slept or only minded their Play never examined what Proficiency they made or used the Rod to make them study and learn tho they would not apply themselves without it But to shew you how much you your self are in earnest for the Salvation of Souls in this your Method I shall set down what I said p. 61. of my Letter on that Subject and what you answer p. 68. of yours L. 2. p. 61. You speak of it here as the most deplorable Condition imaginable that Men should be left to themselves and not be forced to consider and examine the Grounds of their Religion and search impartially and diligently after the Truth This you make the great Miscarriage of Mankind and for this you seem solicitous all through your Treatise to find out a Remedy and there is scarce a Leaf wherein you do not offer yours But what if after all now you should be found to prevaricate Men have contrived to themselves say you a great Variety of Religions 'T is granted They seek not the Truth in this matter with that Application of Mind and that freedom of Judgment which is requisite 'T is confessed All the false Religions now on foot in the World have taken their rise from the slight and partial Consideration which Men have contented themselves with in searching after the true and Men take them up and persist in them for want of due Examination Be it so There is need of a Remedy for this and I have found one whose Success cannot be questioned Very well What is it Let us hear it Why Dissenters must be punished Can any body that
Miracles to supply a means he no where authorised or appointed How long Miracles continued we shall see anon Say you If we may be allowed to guess this Modesty of yours where you confess you guess is only concerning the time of the continuing of Miracles but as to their supplying the want of coactive Force that you are positive in both here and where you tell us Why Penalties were not necessary at first to make Men to give Ear to the Gospel has already been shewn and a little after the great and wonderful things which were to be done for the evidencing the truth of the Gospel were abundantly sufficient to procure Attention c. How you come to know so undoubtedly that Miracles were made use of to supply the Magistrate's Authority since God no where tells you so you would have done well to shew But in your Opinion Force was necessary and that could not then be had and so God must use Miracles For say you Our Saviour was no Magistrate and therefore could not inflict political Punishments upon any Man so much less could he impower his Apostles to do it Could not our Saviour impower his Apostles to denounce or inflict Punishments on careless or obstinate Unbelievers to make them hear and consider You pronounce very boldly methinks of Christ's Power and set very narrow limits to what at another time you would not deny to be infinite But it was convenient here for your present purpose that it should be so limited But they not being Magistrates he could not impower his Apostles to inflict political Punishments How is it of a sudden that they must be political Punishments You tell us all that is necessary is to lay Briars and Thorns in Mens ways to trouble and disease them to make them consider This I hope our Saviour had power to do if he had found it necessary without the assistance of the Magistrates he could have always done by his Apostles and Ministers if he had so thought â—…it what he did once by St. Peter have drop'd Thorns and Briars into their very Minds that should have pricked troubled and diseased them sufficiently But sometimes it is Briars and Thorns only that you want sometimes it must be Humane Means and sometimes as here nothing will serve your turn but political Punishments just as will best sute your occasion in the Argument you have then before you That the Apostles could lay on Punishments as troublesome and as great as any political ones when they were necessary we see in Ananias and Saphira And he that had all Power given him in Heaven and in Earth could if he had thought â—…it have laid Briars and Thorns in the way of all that received not his Doctrine You add But as he could not punish Men to make them hear him so neither was there any need that he should He came as a Prophet sent from God to reveal a new Doctrine to the World and therefore to prove his Mission he was to do such things as could only be done by a Divine Power And the Works which he did were abundantly sufficien both to gain him a hearing and to oblige the World to receive his Doctrine Thus the want of Force and Punishments are supplied How far so far as they are supposed necessary to gain a hearing and so far as to oblige the World to receive Christ's Doctrine whereby as I suppose you mean sufficient to lay an Obligation on them to receive his Doctrine and render them inexcusable if they did not But that they were not sufficient to make all that saw them effectually to receive and imbrace the Gospel I think is evident and you will not I imagine say that all who saw Christ's Miracles believed on him So that Miracles were not to supply the want of such Force as was to be continued on Men to make them consider as they ought i. e. till they imbraced the Truth that must save them For we have little reason to think that our Saviour or his Apostles contended with their neglect or refusal by a constant train of Miracles continued on to those who were not wrought upon by the Gospel preached to them St. Matthew tells us XIII 57. that he did not many mighty works in his own Country because of their Unbelief much less were Miracles to supply the want of Force in that use you make of it where you tell us it is to punish the fault of not being of the true Religion For we do not find any miraculously punished to bring them in to the Gospel So that the want of Force to either of these purposes not being supplied by Miracles the Gospel 't is plain subsisted and spread it self without Force so made use of and without Miracles to supply the want of it ' and therefore it so far remains true that the Gospel having the same Beauty Force and Reasonableness now as it had at the beginning it wants not Force to supply the defect of Miracles to that for which Miracles were no where made use of And so far at least the Experiment is good and this Assertion true that the Gospel is able to prevail by its own Light and Truth without the continuance of Force on the same Person or punishing Men foâ—… not being of the true Religion You say Our Saviour being no Magistrate could not inslict Political Punishments much less could be impower his Apostles to do in I know not what need there is that it should be political so there were so much Punishment used as you say is sufficient to make Men consider it is not necessary it should come from this or that Hand or if there be any odds in that we should be apt to think it would come best and most effectually from those who preached the Gospel and could tell them it was to make them consider than from the Magistrate who neither doth nor according to your Scheme can tell them it is to make them consider And this Power you will not deny but our Saviour could have given to the Aposâ—…les But if there were such absolute need of Political Punishments Titus or Trajan might as well have been converted as Constantinâ—… For how true it is that Miracles supplied the want of Force front those Days till Constantine's and then ceased we shall see by and by I say not this to enter boldly into the Counsels of God 〈◊〉 to take upon me to consure the Conduct of the Almighty or to call his Providence to an account but to answer your saying Our Sâ—…viour was no Magistrate and therefore could not inflict Political Punishments For he could have had both Magistrates and Political Punishments at his Service if he had thought sit and needed not to have continued Miracles longer than there was necessity for evincing the Truth of the Christian Religion as you imagine to supply the want of the Magistrate's Assistance by Force which is necessary But how come
will become of the true Religion which according to you cannot subsist or prevail without either the Assistance of Miracles or Authority Subjects cannot have the Assistance of Authority where the Magistrate is not of the true Religion and the Magistrate wanting the assistance of Authority to bring him to the true Religion that want must be still supplied with Miracles or else according to your Hypothesis all must go to wrack and the True Religion that cannot subsist by its own Strength and Light must be lost in the World For I presume you are scarce yet such an Adorer of the Powers of the World as to say that Magistrates are privileged from that common Corruption of Mankind whose opposition to the true Religion you suppose cannot be overcome without the assistance of Miracles or Force The Flock will stray unless the Bell-weather conduct them right the Bell-weather himself will stray unless the Shepherd's Crook and Staff which he has as much need of as any Sheep of the Flock keep him right Ergo The whole Flock will stray unless the Bell-weather have that assistance which is necessary to conduct him right The Case is the same here So that by your own Rule either there was no need of Miracles to supply the want of Force after the Apostles time or there is need of them still But your Answer when looked into has something in it more excellent I say a Religion that is of God wants not the assistance of Humane Authority to make it prevail You answer True when God takes the matter into his own Hands But when once he has sufficiently settled Religion so that if Men will but do what they may and ought it may subsist without that extraordinary assistance from Heaven then he leaves it to their Care Where you suppose if Men will do their Duties in their several Capacities true Religion being once establish'd may subsist without Miracles And is it not as true that if they will in their several Capacities do what they may and ought true Religion will also subsist without Force But you are sure Magistrates will do what they may and ought to preserve and propagate the true Religion but Subjects will not If you are not you must bethink your self how to answer that old Question Sed quis custodiet 〈◊〉 Custodes To my having said that prevailing without the assistance of Force I thought was made use of as an Argument for the Truth of Christian Religion You reply that you hope I am mistaken for sure this is a very bad Argument That the Christian Religion so contrary in the 〈◊〉 of is as well to Elesh and Blood as to the Powers of Darkness should prevail as it did and that not only without any assistance from Authority but even in spight of all the opposition which Authority and a wicked World joined with those infernal Powers could make against it This I acknowledg has deservedly been insisted upon by Christians as a very good proof of their Religion But to argue the Truth of the Christian Religion from its â—…eer prevailing in the World without any aid from Force or the assistance of the Powers in being as is whatever Religion should so prevail must needs be the true Religion whatever may be intended is really not to desend the Christian Religion but to beâ—…ray it How you have mended the Argument by putting in â—…eer which is not any where used by me I will not examine The Question is whether the Christian Religion such as it was then for I know not any other Christian Religion and is still contrary to the Flesh and Blood and to the Powers of Darkness prevail'd not without the assistance of Humane Force by those aids it has still This I think you will not deny to be an Argument used for its Truth by Christians and some of our Church How far any one in the use of this Argument pleases or displeases you I am not concern'd All the use I made of it was to shew that it is confessed that the Christian Religion did prevail without that Humane Means of the coactive Power of the Magistrate which you assumed to be necessary and this I think makes good the Experiment I brought Nor will your seeking your way a Refuge in Miracles help you to evade it as I have already shewn But you give a Reason for what you say in these following words For neither does the True Religion always prevail without the Assistance of the Powers in being nor is that always the True Religion which does so spread and prevail Those who use the Argument of its prevailing without Force for the Truth of the Christian Religion 't is like will tell you that if it be true as you say that the Christian Religion which at other times does some-times does not prevail without the Assistance of the Powers in being it is because when it fails it wants the due Assistance and Diligence of the Ministers of it How shall they hear without a Preacher How shall the Gospel be spread and prevail if those who take on them to be the Ministers and Preachers of it either neglect to teach it others as they ought or confirm it not by their Lives If therefore you will make this Argument of any use to you you must shew where it was that the Ministers of the Gospel doing their Duty by the Purity of their Lives and their interrupted Labour in being instant in season and out of season have not been able to make it prevail An Instance of this 't is believed you will scarco find And if this be the case that it fails not to prevail where those whose Charge it is neglect not to teach and spread it with that Care Assiduity and Application which they ought you may hereafter know where to lay the blame Not on the Want of sufficient Light and Strength in the Gospel to prevail wherein methinks you make very bold with it but on the want of what the Apostle requires in the Ministers of it some part whereof you may read in these Words to Timothy But thou O Man of God follow after Righteousness Godliness Faith Love Patience Meekness Give Attendance to Reading to Exhortation to Doctrine preach the Word be instant in season and out of season reprove rebuke exhort with all Long-suffering and Doctrine And more to this purpose in his Epistles to Timothy and Titus That the Christian Religion has prevail'd and supported it self in the World now above these 1600 Years you must grant and that it has not been by Force is Demonstration For where-ever the Christian Religion prevail'd it did it as far as we know any thing of the means of its Propagation and Support without the help of that Force moderate Force which you say is alone useful and necessary So that if the Severities you condemn be as you confess apter to hinder than promote the Gospel and it has no where had the Assistance of your
one will deny Christian Magistrates to have that Power Since the Commission of the Law of Nature to Magistrates being only that general one of doing Good according to the best of their Judgments if that extends to the use of Force in Matters of Religion it will abundantly more oppose than promote the True Religion if Force in the case has any Efficacy at all and so do more harm than good Which though it shews not what you here demand that it can not do any Service towards the Salvation of Mens Souls for that cannot be shewn of any thing yet it shews the Disservice it does is so much more than any Service can be expected from it that it can never be proved that God has given Power to Magistrates to use it by the Commission they have of doing Good from the Law of Nature But 〈◊〉 you tell me Till I have 〈◊〉 that Force and Penalties cannot do any Service towards â—…he Saâ—…ation of Souls there will be no occaâ—…ion for the Caution I gave you not to be wiser than our Maker in that stupendous and supernatural Work you have forgot your own 〈◊〉 That it is not enough to authorize the use of Force that it may be useful if it be not also necessary And when you can prove such Means necessary which though it cannot be shewn never upon any occasion to do any Service yet may be and is abundantly shewn to do so little Service and so uncertainly that if it be used it will if it has any Efficacy do more harm than good If you can I say prove such a Means as that necessary I think I may yield you the Cause But the use of it has so much certain Harm and so little and uncertain Good in it that it can never be suppos'd included or intended in the general Commission to the Magistrates of doing good Which may serve for an Answer to your next Paragraph Only let me take notice that you here make this Commission of the Law of Nature to extend the use of Force only to induce those who would not otherwise to hear what may and ought to move them to imbrace the Truth They have heard all that is offered to move them to imbrace i. e. believe but are not moved Is the 〈◊〉 by the Law of Nature commission'd to punish them for what is not in their Power for Faith is the Gift of God and not in a Man's Power Or is the Magistrate commission'd by the Law of Nature which impowers him in general only to do them good Is he I say commission'd to make them lie and 〈◊〉 that which they do not believe And is this for their good If he punish them till they imbrace i. e. believe he punishes them for what is not in their Power if till they imbrace i. e. barely prosess he punishes them for what is not for their good To neither of which can he be commission'd by the Law of Nature To my saying Till you can shew us a 〈◊〉 in Scripture it will be fit for us to obey that 〈◊〉 of the Gospel Mark 4. 24. which bids us take â—…eed what we 〈◊〉 You reply That this you suppose is only intended for the 〈◊〉 Reader For it ought to be renderd Attend to what you hear which you prove out of 〈◊〉 What if I or my Readers are not so learned as to understand either the Greek Original or 〈◊〉 Latin Comment Or if we did are we to be blamed for understanding the Scripture in that Sense which the National i. e. as you say the True Reliâ—…ion authorizes and which you tell us would be a Fault in us if we did not believe For if as you suppose there be sufficient Provision made in England for instructing all Men in the Truth we cannot then but take the Words in this Sense it being that which the Publick Authority has given them for if we are not to follow the Sense as it is given us in the Transtation authorized by our Governors and used in our Worship establish'd by Law but must seek it elsewhere 't will be hard to find how there is any other Provision made for instructing Men in the Sense of the Scripture which is the Truth that must save them but to leave them to their own Inquiry and Judgment and to themselves to take whom they think best for Interpreters and Expounders of Scripture and to quit that of the True Church which she has given in her Translation This is the Liberty you take to differ from the True Church when you think â—…it and it will serve your purpose She says take take what you hear but you say the true Sense is 〈◊〉 to what you hear Methinks you should not be at such variance with Distenters for after all nothing is so like a Nonconformist as a Conformist Though it be certainly every one's Right to understand the Scripture in that Sense which appears truest to him yet I do not see how you upon your Principles can depart from that which the Church of England has given it but you I ndâ—… when you think fit take that Liberty and so much Liberty as that would I think satisfy all the 〈◊〉 in England As to your other place of Scripture if St. Paul as it seems to me in that Xth to the Romans were shewing that the Gentiles were provided with all things necessary to Salvation as well as the Jews and that by having Men sent to them to preach the Gospel that Provision was made what you say in the two next Paragraphs will shew us that you understand that the Greek Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies both Hearing and Report but does no more answer the Force of those two Verses against you than if you had spared all you said with your Greek Criticism The Words of St. Paul are these How then shall they call on him on whom they have not believed And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard And how shall they hear without a Preacher And how shall they preach except they be sent So then Faith cometh by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God In this Deduction of the Means of propagating the Gospel we may well suppose St. Paul would have put in Miracles or Penalties if as you say one of them had been necessary But whether or no every Reader will think St. Paul set down in that place all necessary Means I know not but this I am consident he will think that the New Testament does and then I ask Whether there be in it one word of Force to be used to bring Men to be Christians or to hearken to the good Tidings of Salvation offer'd in the Gospel To my asking What if God for Reasons best known to Himself would not have Men compell'd You answer If he would not have them compell'd now Miracles are ceased as far as moderate Penalties compel otherwise you are not concern'd
A THIRD LETTER FOR TOLERATION TO THE AUTHOR OF THE THIRD LETTER CONCERNING Toleration LONDON Printed for Awnsham and John Churchill at the Black Swan in Pater-Noster-Row MDC XCII The Reader may be pleased to take notice that L. 1. Stands for the Letter concerning Toleration A. For the Argument of the Letter concerning Toleraration briefly consider'd and answer'd L. 2. The Second Letter concerning Toleration P. The Pages of the Third Letter concerning Toleration A Third LETTER for Toleration CHAP. I. SIR THE Business which your Letter concerning Toleration found me ingaged in has taken up so much of the time my Health would allow me ever since that I doubt whether I should now at all have troubled you or the World with an Answer had not some of my Friends sufficiently satisfied of the Weakness of your Arguments with repeated Instances perswaded me it might be of use to Truth in a Point of so great Moment to â—…lear it from those Fallacies which might perhaps puzzle some unwary Readers and therefore prevailed on me to shew the wrong Grounds and mistaken Reasonings you make use of to support your new way of Persecution Pardon me Sir that I use that Name which you are so much offended at for if Punishment be Punishment though it come short of the Discipline of Fire and Faggot 't is as certain that Punishment for Religion is truly Persecution though it be only such Punishment as you in your Clemency think fit to call moderate and convenient Penalties But however you please to call them I doubt not but to let you see that if you will be true to your own Principles and stand to what you have said you must carry your some â—…egrees of Force as you phrase it to all these Degrees which in Words you declare against You have indeed in this last Letter of yours altered the Question for pag. 26. you tell me the Question between us is Whether the Magistrate hath any Right to use Force to bring Men to the true Religion Whereas you your self own the Question to be Whether the Magistrate has a Right to use Force in matters of Religion Whether this Alteration be at all to the Advantage of Truth or your Cause we shall see But hence you take occasion â—…ll along to lay load on me for charging you with the Absurdities of a Power in the Magistrates to punish Men to bring them to their Religion Whereas you here tell us they have a Right to use Force only to bring Men to the true But whether I were more to blame to suppose you to talk coherently and mean Sense or you in expressing your self so doubtfully and uncertainly where you were concerned to be plain and direct I shall leave to our Readers to judg only here in the Beginning I shall endeavour to clear my self of that Imputation I so often meet with of charging on you Consequences you do not own and arguing against an Opinion that is not yours in those Places where I shew how little Advantage it would be to Truth or the Salvation of Mens Souls that all Magistrates should have a Right to use Force to bring Men to imbrace their Religion This I shall do by proving that if upon your Grounds the Magistrate as you pretend be obliged to use Force to bring Men to the true Religion it will necessarily follow that every Magistrate who believes his Religion to be true is obliged to use Force to bring Men to his You tell us That by the Law of Nature the Magistrate is invested with coactive Power and obliged to use it for all the good Purposes which it might serve and for which it should be found needful even for the restraining of false and corrupt Religion And that it is the Magistrate's Duty to which he is commissioned by the Law of Nature but the Scipture does not properly give it him I suppose you will grant me that any thing laid upon the Magistrate as a Duty is some way or other practicable Now the Magistrate being obliged to use Force in Matters of Religion but yet so as to bring Men only to the true Religion he will not be in any Capacity to perform this part of his Duty unless the Religion he is thus to promote be what he can certainly know or else what it is sufficient for him to believe to be the true Either his Knowledg or his Opinion must point out that Religion to him which he is by Force to promote or else he may promiscuously and indifferently promote any Religion and punish Men at a venture to bring them from that they are in to any other This last I think no body has been so wild as to say If therefore it must be either his Knowledg or his Perswasion that must guide the Magistrate herein and keep him within the Bounds of his Duty if the Magistrates of the World cannot know certainly know the true Religion to be the true Religion but it be of a Nature to exercise their Faith for where Vision Knowledg and Certainty is there Faith is done away then that which gives them the last Determination herein must be their own Belief their own Perswasion To you and me the Christian Religion is the true and that is built to mention no other Articles of it on this that Jesus Christ was put to Death at Jerusalem and rose again from the Dead Now do you or I know this I do not ask with what Assurance we believe it for that in the highest Degree not being Knowledg is not what we now inquire aâ—…ter Can any Magistrate demonstrate to himself and if he can to himself he does ill not to do it to others not only all the Aâ—…ticles of his Church but the Fundamental ones of the Christian Religion For whatever is not capable of Demonstration as such remote Matters of Fact are not is not unless it be self-evident capable to produce Knowledg how well grounded and great soever the Assurance of Faith may be wherewith it is received but Faith it is still and not Knowledg Perswasion and not Certainty This is the highest the Nature of the thing will permit us to go in â—…atters of revealed Religion which are therefore called Matters of Faith A Perswasion of our own Minds short of Knowledg is the last Result that determines us in such Truths 'T is all God requires in the Gospel for Men to be saved and 't would be strange if there were more required of the Magistrate for the Direction of another in the way to Salvation than is required of him for his own Salvation Knowledg then properly so called not being to be had of the Truths necessary to Salvation the Magistrate must be content with Faith and Perswasion for the Rule of that Truth he will recommend and inforce upon others as well as of that whereon he will venture his own eternal Condition If therefore it be the Magistrates Duty to use Force to bring Men
to the true Religion it can be only to that Religion which he believes to be true So that if Force be at all to be used by the Magistrate in Matters of Religion it can only be for the promoting that Religion which he only believes to be true or none at all I grant that a strong Assurance of any Truth settled upon prevalent and well-grounded Arguments of Probability is often called Knowledg in popular ways of Talking but being here to distinguish between Knowledg and Belief to what Degrees of Considence soever raised their Boundaries must be kept and their Names not confounded I know not what greater Pledg a Man can give of a full Perswasion of the Truth of any thing than his venturing his Soul upon it as he does who sincerely imbraces any Religion and receives it for true But to what Degree soever of Assurance his Faith may rise it still comes short of Knowledg Nor can any one now I think arrive to greater Evidence of the Truth of the Christian Religion than the first Converts in the time of our Saviour and the Apostles had of whom yet nothing more was required but to believe But supposing all the Truths of the Christian Religion necessary to Salvation could be so known to the Magistrate that in his Use of Force for the bringing Men to imbrace these he could be guided by infallible Certainty yet I fear this would not serve your turn nor authorize the Magistrate to use Force to bring Men in England or any where else into the Communion of the National Church in which Ceremonies of humane Institution were imposed which could not be known nor being confessed things in their own Nature indifferent so much as thought necessary to Salvation But of this I shall have occasion to speak in another Place all the Use I make of it here is to shew that the Cross in Baptism kneeling at the Sacrament and such like things being impossible to be known necessary to Salvation a certain knowledg of the Truth of the Articles of Faith of any Church could not authorize the Magistrate to compel Men to imbraâ—… the Communion of that Church wherein any thing were made necessary to Communion which he did not know was necessary to Salvation By what has been already said I suppose it is evident that if the Magistrate be to use Force only for promoting the true Religion he can have no other Guide but his own Perswasion of what is the true Religion and must be led by that in his Use of Force or else not use it at all in matters of Religion If you take the latter of these Consequences you and I are agreed if the former you must allow all Magistrates of whatsoever Religion the Use of Force to bring Men to theirs and so be involved in all those ill Consequences which you cannot it seems admit and hoped to decline by your useless Distinction of Force to be usâ—…d not for any but for the true Religion 'T is the Dâ—…y you say of the Magistrate to use Force for proâ—…ing the true Religion And in several Places you tell us he is oâ—…liged to it Perswade Magistrates in general of this and then â—…ll me how any Magistrate shall be restrained from the Use of Force for the promoting what he thinks to be the true For he being perswaded that it is his Duty to use Force to promote the true Religion and being also perswaded his is the true Religion What shall stop his Hand Must he forbear the Use of Force till he be got beyond believing into a certain Knowledg that all he requires Men to imbrace is necessary to Salvation If that be it you will stand to you have my Consent and I think there will be no need of any other Toleration But if the believing his Religion to be the true be sufficient for the Magistrate to use Force for the promoting of it will it be so only to the Magistrates of the Religion that you proâ—…ss And must all other Magistrates sit still and not do their Duty till they have your Permission If it be your Magistrate's Duty to use Force for the promoting the Religion he believes to be the true it will be every Magistrate's Duty to use Force for the promoting what he believes to be the true and he sins if he does not receive and promote it as if it were true If you will not take this upon my Word yet I desire you to do it upon the strong Reason of a very judicious and reverend Prelate of the present Church of England In a discourse concerning Conscience printed in 4to 87. p. 18. You will find these following Words and much more to this Purpose Where a Man is mistaken in his Judgment even in that Case it is always a Sin to act against it Though we should take that for a Duty which is really a Sin yet so long as we are thus perswaded it will be highly criminal in us to act in contradiction to this Perswasion and the Reason of this is evident because by so doing we wilfully act against the best Light which at present we have for the Direction of our Actions So that when all is done the immediate Guide of our Actions can be nothing but our Conscience our Judgment and Perswasion If a Man for Instance should of a Jew become a Christian whilst yet in his Heart he believed that the Messiah is not yet come and that our Lord Jesus was an Impostor Or if a Papist should renounce the Communion of the Roman Church and join with ours whilst yet he is perswaded that the Roman Church is the only Catholick Church and that our Reformed Churches are Heretical or Schismatical though now there is none of us that will dâ—…ny that the Men in both these Cases have made a good Change as having changed a false Religion for â—…ruo one yet for all that I dare say we should all agree they were both of them great Villains for making that Change becauso they made it not upon honest Principles and in pursuance of their Judgment but in direct contradiction to both So that it being the Magistrate's Duty to use Force to bring Men to the â—…rue Religion and he being perswaded his is the true I suppose you will no longer question but that he is as much obliged to use Force to bring Men to it as if it were the true And then Sir I hope you have too much Respect for Magistrates not to allow them to believe the Religions to be true which they profess These things put together I desire you to consider whether if Magistrates are obliged to use Force to bring Men to the true Religion every Magistrate is not oblig'd to use Force to bring Men to that Religion he believes to be true This being so I hope I have not argued so wholly besides the purpose as you all through your Letter accuse me for charging on your Doctrine all the ill
for Matter of Religion You tell us you do not yet understand why Clergymen are not as capable of such Power as other Men Which Words of mine containing in them nothing but true matter of Fact give you no Reason to tax my Ingenuity Nor will what you alledg make it otherwise than such Power for if the Power you there speak of were externally coactive Power is not that the same Power the Author was speaking of made use of to those Ends he mentions of tormenting and punishing And do not you own that those who have that Power ought to punish those who offend in rejecting the true Religion As to the remaining Part of that Paragraph I shall leave the Reader to judg whether I sought any occasion so much as to name the Clergy or whether the itching of your Fingers to be handling the Rod guided not your Pen to what was nothing to the Purpose For the Author had not said any thing so much as tending to exclude the Clergy from secular Imployments but only if you will take your own Report of it that no Ecclesiastical Officer as such has any externally coactive Power whereupon you cry out that you do not yet understand why Ecclesiasticks or Clergymen are not as capable of such Power as other Men. Had you stood to be Constable of your Parish or of the Hundred you might have had Cause to vindicate thus your Capacity if Orders had been objected to you or if your Aim be at a Justice of the Peace or Lord Chief Justice of England much more However you must be allowed to be a Man of forecast in clear-ing the way to secular Power if you know your self or any of your Friends desirous of it Otherwise I confess you have Reason to be on this occasion a little out of Humour as you are for bringing this matter in Question so wholly out of Season Nor will I fear the ill-sitted Excuse you bring give your self or one who consults the Places in both yours and the Author's Letter a much better Opinion of it However I cannot but thank you for your wonted Ingenuity in saying that it seems I wanted an Occasion to shew my good Will to the Clergy and so I made my self one And to find more Work for the excellent Gift you have this way I desire you to read over that Paragraph of mine again and tell me whether you can find any thing said in it not true Any Advice in it that you your sâ—…lf would disown any thing that any worthy Clergyman that adorns his Function is concerned in And when you have set it down in my Words the World shall be Judg whether I have shewed any ill Will to the Clergy Till then I may take the Liberty to own that I am more a Friend to them and their Calling than those amongst them who shew their Forwardness to leave the Word of God to serve other Employments The Office of a Minister of the Gospel requires so the whole Man that the very looking after their Poor was by the joint Voice of the the twelve Apostles called leaving the Word of God and serving of Tables But if you think no Mens Faults can be spoken of without ill Will you will make a very ill Prcacher Or if you think this to be so only in speaking of Mistakes in any of the Clergy there must be in your Opinion something peculiar in their Case that makes it so much a Fault to mention any of theirs which I must be pardoned for since I was not aware of it And there will want but a little cool Reflection to convince you that had not the present Church of England a greater Number in Proportion than possibly any other Age of the Church ever had of those who by their pious Lives and Labours in their Ministry adorn their Profession such busy Men as cannot be content to be Divines without being Lay-men too would so little keep up the Reputation which ought to distinguish the Clergy or preserve the Esteem due to a Holy i. e. a separate Order that no Body can shew greater good Will to them than by taking all Occasions to put a Stop to any Forwardness to be medling out of their Calling This I suppose made a learned Prelate of our Church out of Kindness to the Clergy mind them of their Stipulation and Duty in a late Treatise and tell them that the Pastoral Care is to be a Man's entire Business and to possess both his Thoughts and his Time Disc. of Past. Care p. 121. To your saying That the Magistrate may lay Penalties upon those who refuse to imbrace your Doctrine of the proper Ministers of Religion or are alienated from the Truth I answered God never gave the Magistrate an Authority to be Judg of Truth for another Man This you gâ—…ant but withal say That if the Magistrate knows the Truth though he has no Authority to judg of Truth for another Man yet he may be Judg whether other Men be alienated from the Truth or no and so may have Authority to lay some Penalties upon those whom he sees to be so to bring them to judg more sincerely for themselves For Example The Doctrine of the proper Ministers of Religion is that the three Creeds Nice Athanasius's and that commonly call'd the Apostles Creed ought to be thorowly received and believed As also that the Old and New Testament contain all things necessary to Salvation The one of these Doctrines a Papist Subject imbraces not and a Socinian the other What now is the Magistrate by your Commission to do He is to lay Penalties upon them and continue them How long Only till they conform i. e. till they profess they imbrace these Doctrines for true In which Case he does not judg of the Truth for other Men he only judges that other Men are alienated from the Truth Do you not now admire your own Subtilty and Acuteness I that cannot comprehend this tell you my dull Sense in the Case He that thinks another Man in an Error judges him as you phrase it alienated from the Truth and then judges of Truth and Falshood only for himself But if he lays any Penalty upon others which they are to lie under till they embrace for a Truth what he judges to be so he is then so far a Judg of Truth for those others This is what I think to judg of Truth for another means If you will tell me what else it signifies I am ready to learn You grant you say God never gave the Magistrate any Authority to be Judg of Truth for another Man and then add But how does it follow from thence that he cannot be Judg whether any Man be alienated from the Truth or no And I ask you Who ever said any such thing did follow from thence That which I say and which you ought to disprove is That whoever punishes others for not being of the Religion he
judges to be true judges of Truth for others But you prove that a Man may be Judg of Truth without having Authority to judg of it for other Men or to prescribe to them what they shall believe which you might have spared till you meet with some body that denies it But yet your proof of it is worth remembring Rectum say you est Index sui obliqui And certainly whoever does but know the Truth may easily judg whether other Men be alienated from it or no. But tho Rectum be Index sui obliqui yet a Man may be ignorant of that which is the right and may take Error for Truth The Truth of Religion when known shews what contradicts it is false but yet that Truth may be unknown to the Magistrate as well as to any other Man But you conclude I know not upon what ground as if the Magistrate could not miss it or were surer to find it than other Men. I suppose you are thus favourable only to the Magistrate of your own Profession as no doubt in Civility a Papist or a Presbyterian would be to those of his And then infer And therefore if the Magistrate knows the Truth though he has no Authority to judg of Truth for other Men yet he may be Judg whether other Men be alienated from the Truth or no. Without doubt who denies it him 'T is a Privilege that he and all Men have that when they know the Truth or believe the Truth or have embraced an Error for Truth they may judg whether other Men are alienated from it or no if those other Men own their Opinions in that matter You go on with your Inference And so may have Authority to lay some Penalties upon those whom he sees to be so Now Sir you go a little too fast This he cannot do without making himself Judg of Truth for them The Magistrate or any one may judg as much as he pleases of Mens Opinions and Errors he in that judges only for himself but as soon as he uses Force to bring them from their own to his Opinion he makes himself Judg of Truth for them let it be to bring them to judg more sincerely for themselves as you here call it or under what pretence or colour soever for that what you say is but a Pretence the very Expression discovers For does any one ever judg insincerely for himself that he needs Penalties to make him judg more sincerely for himself A Man may judg wrong for himself and may be known or thought to do so But who can either know or suppose another is not sincere in the Judgment he makes for himself or which is the same thing that any one knowingly puts a mixture of Falshood into the Judgment he makes For as speaking insincerely is to speak otherwise than one thinks let what he says be true or false so judging insincerely must be to judg otherwise than one thinks which I imagine is not very feasible But how improper soever it be to talk of judging insincerely for one's self it was better for you in that Place to say Penalties were to bring Men to judg more sincerely rather than to say more rightly or more truly for had you said the Magistrate might use Penalties to bring Men to judg more truly that very Word had plainly discovered that he made himself a Judg of Truth for them You therefore wisely chose to say what might best cover this Contradiction to your self whether it were Sense or no which perhaps whilst it sounded well every one would not stand to examine One thing give me leave here to observe to you which is That when you speak of the Entertainment Subjects are to give to Truth i. e. the true Religion you call it believing but this in the Magistrate you call knowing Now let me ask you Whether any Magistrate who laid Penalties on any who dissented from what he judged the true Religion or as you call it here were alienated from the Truth was or could be determined in his judging of that Truth by any Assurance greater than believing When you have resolved that you will then see to what purpose is all you have said here concerning the Magistrate's knowing the Truth which at last amounting to no more than the Assurance wherewith a Man certainly believes and receives a thing for true will put every Magistrate under the same if there be any Obligation to use Force whilst he believes his own Religion Besides if a Magistrate knows his Râ—…ligion to be true he is to use means not to make his People believe but know it also Knowledg of them if that be the way of entertaining the Truths of Religion being as necessary to the Subjects as the Magistrate I never heard yet of a Master of Mathematicks who had the care of informing others in those Truths who ever went about to make any one believe one of Euclid's Propositions The Pleasantness of your Answer notwithstanding what you say doth remain still the same for you making as is to be seen the Power of the Magistrate ORDAINED for the bringing Men to take such care as they ought of their Salvation the reason why it is every Man's Interest to vest this Power in the Magistrate must suppose this Power so ordained before the People vested it or else it could not be an Argument for their vesting it in the Magistrate For if you had not here built upon your fundamental Supposition that this Power of the Maâ—…istrate is ordained by God to that end the proper and intelligible way of expressing your meaning had not been to say as you do As the Power of the Magistrate is ordained for bringing c. so if we suppose this POWER vested in the Magistrate by the People in which way of speaking this Power of the Magistrate is evidently supposed already ordained But a clear way of making your meaning understood had been to say That for the People to ordain such a Power of the Magistrate or to vest such a Power in the Magistrate which is the same thing was their true Interest but whether it were your Meaning or your Expression that was guilty of the Absurdity I shall leave it with the Reader As to the other pleasant thing of your Answer it will still appear by barely reciting it the pleasant thing I charge on you is that you say That the Power of the Magistrate is to bring Men to such a care of their Salvation that they may not blindly leave it to the choice of any Person or their own Lusts or Passions to prescribe to them what Faith or Worship they shall imbrace and yet that 't is their best course to vest a Power in the Magistrate liable to the same Lusts and Passions as themselves to chuse for them To this you answer by asking where it is that you say that it is the Peoples best course to vest a Power in the Magistrate to
choose for them that you tell me I do not pretend to shew If you had given your self the pains to have gone on to the end of the Paragraph or will be pleased to read it as I have here again set it down for your perusal you will find that I at least pretended to shew it my Words are these If they vest a Power in the Magistrate to punish them when they dissent from his Religion to bring them to act even against their own Inclination according to Reason and sound Judgment which is as you explain your self in another place to bring them to consider Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince them how far is this from leaving it to the choice of another Man to prescribe to them what Faith or Worship they shall embrace Thus far you cite my Words to which let me join the remaining part of the Paragraph to let you see that I pretended to shew that the Course you proposed to the People as best for them was to vest a Power in the Magistrate to choose for them My Words which follow those where you left off are these Especially if we consider that you think it a strange thing that the Author would have the care of every Man's Soul left to himself So that this Care being vested in the Magistrate with a Power to punish Men to make them consider Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince them of the Truth of his Religion the Choice is evidently in the Magistrate as much as it can be in the power of one Man to chuse for another what Religion he shall be of which consists only in a power of compelling him by Punishments to embrace it But all this you tell me is just nothing to my purpose Why I beseech you Because you speak not of the Magistrate's Religion but of the true Religion and that proposed with sufficient Evidence The Case in short is this Men are apt to be misled by their Passions Lusts and other Men in the choice of their Religion For this great Evil you propose a Remedy which is That Men for you must remember you are here speaking of the People putting this Power into the Magistrate's hand should chuse some of their Fellow-Men and give them a Power by Force to guard them that they might not be alienated from the Truth by their own Passions Lusts or by other Men. So it was in the first Scheme or as you have it now to punish them whenever they rejected the true Religion and that proposed with sufficient Evidence of the Truth of it A pretty Remedy and manifestly effectual at first sight That because Men were all promiscuously apt to be misled in their Judgment or choice of their Reliâ—…ion by Passion Lust and other Men therefore they should chuse some amongst themselves who might they and their Successors Men made just like themselves punish them when they rejected the true Religion If the Blind lead the Blind both shall fall into the Ditch says our Saviour If Men apt to be misled by their Passions and Lusts will guard themselves from falling into Error by Punishments laid on them by Men as apt to be misled by Passions and Lusts as themselves how are they the safer from falling into Error Now hear the insallible Remedy for this Inconvenience and admire the Men to whom they have given this Power must not use it till they find those who gave it them in an Error A Friend to whom I shewed this Expedient answered This is none For why is not a Man as fit to judg for himself when he is in an Error as another to judg for him who is as liable to Error himself I answered This Power however in the other can do him no harm but may indirectly and at a distance do him good because the Magistrate who has this Power to punish him must never use it but when he is in the right and he that is punish'd is in the wrong But said my Friend who shall be Judg whether he be in the right or no for Men in an Error think themselves in the right and that as confidently as those who are most so To which I replied No body must be Judg but the Magistrate may know when he is in the right And so may the Subject too said my Friend as well as the Magistrate and therefore it was as good still be free from a Punishment that gives a Man no more Security from Error than he had without it Besides said he who must be Judg whether the Magistrate knows or no for he may mistake and think it to be Knowledg and Certainty when it is but Opinion and Belief It is no matter for that in this Scheme replied I the Magistrate we are told may know which is the true Religion and he must not use Force but to bring Men to the true Religion and if he does God will one day call him to an Account for it and so all is safe As safe as beating the Air can make a thing replied my Friend for if believing being assured confidently being perswaded that they know that the Religion they prosess is true or any thing else short of true Knowledg will serve the turn all Magistrates will have this Power alike and so Men will be well guarded or recovered from false Religions by putting it into the Magistrate's Hand to punish them when they have alienated themselves from it If the Magistrate be not to punish Men but when he knows i. e. is infallibly certain for so is a Man in what he knows that his National Religion is all true and knows also that it has been proposed to those he punishes with sufficient Evidence of the Truth of it 'T would have been as good this Power had never been given him since he will never be in a Condition to exercise it and at best it was given him to no Purpose since those who gave it him were one with another as little indisposed to consider impartially examine diligently study find and infallibly know the Truth as he But said he at parting to talk thus of the Magistrates punishing Men that reject the true Religion without telling us who those Magistrates are who have a Power to judg which is the true Religion is to put this Power in all Magistrates Hands alike or none For to say he only is to be Judg which is the true Religion who is of it is but to begin the round of Enquiries again which can at last end no where but in every one's supposing his own to be it But said he if you will continue to talk on thus there is nothing more to be done with you but to pity or laugh at you and so he left me I assure you Sir I urged this part of your Hypothesis with all the Advantage I thought your Answer afforded me and if I have erred in it or there be any way to get out of the
your Opinion have Commission and are obliged to promote the true Religion by Force and they can be guided in the Discharge of this Duty by nothing but their own Opinion of the true Religion What Advantage can this be to the true Religion what Benefit to their Subjects or whether it amounts to any more than a Commission to every Magistrate to use Force for the promoting his own Religion To this Question therefore you will do well to apply your Answer which a Man of less Skill than you will be scarce able to do You tell us indeed that whatever the Magistrate's Opinion be his Power was given him as the Apostles Power was to them for Edification only and not for Destruction But if the Apostles Power had been given them for one End and St. Paul St. Peter and nine others of the twelve had had nothing to guide them but their own Opinion which led them to another End I ask you whether the Edification of the Church could have been carried on as it was You tell us farther that it may always be said of the Magistrate what St. Paul said of himself that he can do nothing against the Truth but for the Truth Witness the K. of France If you say this in the same Sense that St. Paul said it of himself who in all things requisite for Edification had the immediate Direction and Guidance of the unerring Spirit of God and so was infallible we need not go to Rome for an infallible Guide every Country has one in their Magistrate If you apply these Words to the Magistrate in another Sense than what St. Paul spoke them in of himself sober Men will be apt to think you have a great Care to insinuate into others a high Veneration for the Magistrate but that you your self have no over-great Reverence for the Scripture which you thus use nor for Truth which you thus defend To deny the Magistrate to have a Power to compel Men to his Religion But yet to say the Magistrate has a Power and is bound to punish Men to make them consider till they cease to reject the true Religion of which true Religion he must be Judg or else nothing can be done in Discharge of this his Duty is so like going round about to come to the same place that it will always be a Circle in mine and other Peoples Imagination and not only there but in your Hypothesis All that you say turns upon the Truth or Falshood of this Proposition That whoever punishes any one in Maâ—…ters of Religion to make him consider takes upon him to be Judg for another what is right in Matters of Religion This you think plainly involves a Contradiction and so it would if these general Terms had in your use of them their ordinary and usual meaning But Sir be but pleased to take along with you That whoever punishes any Man your way in Matters of Religion to make him consider as you use the word consider takes upon him to be Judg for another what is right in Matters of Religion and you will find it so far from a Contradiction that it is a plain Truth For your way of punishing is a peculiar way and is this That the Magistrate where the National Religion is the true Religion should punish those who dissent from it to make them consider as they ought i. e. till they cease to reject or in other words till they conform to it If therefore he punishes none but those who dissent from and punishes them till they conform to that which he judges the true Religion does he not take on him to judg for them what is the true Religion 'T is true indeed what you say there is no other reason to punish another to make him consider but that he should judg for himself and this will always hold true amongst those who when they speak of considering mean considering and nothing else But then these things will follow from thence 1. That in inflicting of Penalties to make Men consider the Magistrate of a Country where the National Religion is false no more misapplies his Power than he whose Religion is true for one has as much right to punish the Negligent to make them consider study and examine Matters of Religion as the other 2. If the Magistrate punishes Men in Matters of Religion truly to make them consider he will punish all that do not consider whether Conformists or Nonconformists 3. If the Magistrate punishes in Matters of Religion to make Men consider it is as you say to make Men judg for themselves for there is no use of considering but in order to judging But then when a Man has judg'd for himself the Penalties for not considering are to be taken off for else your saying that a Man is punished to make him consider that he may judg for himself is plain Mockery So that either you must reform your Scheme or allow this Proposition to be true viz. Whoever punishes any Man in Matters of Religion to make him in your sense consider takes upon him to judg for another what is right in Matters of Religion and with it the Conclusion viz. Therefore whoever punishes any one in Matters of Religion to make him consider takes upon him to do what no Man can do and consequently misapplies his Power of punishing if he has that Power Which Conclusion you say you should readily admit as sufficiently demonstrated if the Proposition before mentioned were true But further if it could enter into the Head of any Law-maker but you to punish Men for the omission of or to make them perform any internal Act of the Mind such as is Consideration Whoever in matter of Religion would lay an Injunction on Men to make them consider could not do it without judging for them in Matters of Religion unless they had no Religion at all and then they come not within our Author's Toleration which is a Toleration only of Men of different Religions or of different Opinions in Religion For supposing you the Magistrate with full Power and as you imagin'd Right of punishing any one in Matters of Religion how could you possibly punish any one to make him consider without judging for him what is right in Matters of Religion I will suppose my self brought before your Worship under what Character you please and then I desire to know what one or more Questions you would ask me upon my Answer to which you could judg me fit to be punished to make me consider without taking upon you to judg fâ—…r me what is right in Matters of Religion for I conclude from the Fashion of my Coat or the Colour of my Eyes you would not judg that I ought to be punished in Matters of Religion to make me consider If you could I should allow you not only as capable but much more capable of coactive Power than other Men. But since you could not judg me to need Punishment in Matters of
and at a Distance do some Service towards the advancing or procuring the spiritual and eternal Interest of some of those who suffer in it In the two latter Paragraphs you except against my want of Exactness in setting down your Opinion I am arguing against Had it been any way to take off the Force of what you say or that the Reader could have been misled by my Words in any part of the Question I was arguing against you had hâ—…d Reason to complain if not you had done better to haâ—…e entertained the Reader with a clearer Answer to my Argument than spent your Ink and his Time needlesly to shew such Niceness My Argument is as good against your Tenet in your own Words as in mine which you except against your Words are Doubtless Commonwealths are instituted for the attaining all the Benefits which Political Government can yield and therefore if the spiritual and eternal Interest of Men may any way be procured 〈◊〉 advanced by Political Government the procuring and advancing those Interests must in all Reason be reckon'd amongst the Ends of Civil Societies To which I answer'd That if this be so Then this Position must be true viz. That all Societies whatsoever are instituted for the attaining all the Benefits that they may any way yield there being nothing peculiar to Civil Society in the case why that Society should be instituted for the attaining all the Benefits it can any way yield and other Societies not By which Argument it will follow that all Societies are instituted for one and the same End i. e. for the attaining all the Benefits that they can any way yield By which Account there will be no Difference between Church and State a Commonwealth and an Army or between a â—…amily and the East-India Company all which have hitherto been thought distinct sorts of Societies instituted â—…or different Ends. If your Hypothesis hold good oâ—…e of the Ends of the Family must be to preach the Gospel and administer the Sacraments and one Business of an Army to teach Languages and propagate Religion because these are Benefits some way or other attainable by those Societies unless you take want of Commission and Authority to be a sufficient impâ—…diment And that will be so in other Cases To which you reply Nor will it follow from hence that all Societies are instituted for one and the same End as you imagine it will unless you suppose all Sociâ—…s inabâ—…d by the Power they are indued with to attain the same â—…nd which I believe no Man hitherto did ever affirm And therefore notwithstanding this Position theâ—…e may be still as great a Difference as you please between Church anâ—… State a Commonwealth and an Army or between a Family and the East-India-Company Which â—…veral Societies as they are instituted for different Ends so are thâ—…y likewise furnished with dâ—…fferent Powers proportionate to their respective Ends. In which the Râ—…ason you give to destroy my Inference I am to thank you for if you understood the Force of it it being the very same I bring to shew that my Inference from your way of arguing is good I say that from your way of reasonings about the Ends of Government ` It would follow that all Societies were instituted for one and the same End unless you take want of Commission ` and Authority to be a sufficient Impâ—…diment And you tell me here it will not follow unless I suppose all Societies enabled by the Powers they are indued with to attain the same End which in other Words is unless I suppose all who have in their Hands the Force of any Society to have all of them the same Commission The natural Force of all the Members of any Society or of those who by the Society can be procured to assist it is in one Sense called the Power of that Society This Power or Force is generally put into some one or few Persons Hands with Direction and Authority how to use it and this in another Sense is called also the Power of the Society And this is the Power you here speak of and in these following Words viz. Several Societies as they are instituted for different Ends so likewise are they furnished with different Powers proportionate to their respective Ends. The Power therefore of any Society in this Sense is nothing but the Authority and Direction given to those that have the Management of the Force or natural Power of the Society how and to what Ends to use it by which Commission the Ends of Societies are known and distinguished so that all Societies wherein those who are intrusted with the Management of the Force or natural Power of the Society have Commission and Authority to use the Force or natural Power of the Society to attain the same Benefits are instituted for the same End And therefore if in all Societies those who have the Management of the Force or natural Power of the Society are commission'd or authorized to use that Force to attain all the Benefits attainable by it all Societies are instituted to the same End And so what I said will still be true viz. ` That a Family and an Army a Commonwealth and a Church have all the same End And if your Hypothesis hold good one of the Ends of a Family must be to preach the Gospel and administer the Sacraments and one Business of an Army to teach Languages and propagate Religion because these are Benefits some way or other attainable by those Societies unless you take want of Commission and Authority to be a sufficient Impediment And ` that will be so too in other Cases To which you have said nothing but what does confirm it which you will a little better see when you have considered that any Benefit attainable by Force or natural Power of a Society does not proâ—…e the Society to be instituted for that End till you also shew that those to whom the Management of the Force of the Society is intrusted are commâ—…ion to use it to that End And therefore to your next Paragraph I shall think it Answer enough to print here Side by Side with it that Paragraph of mine to which you intended it as an Answer L. 2. p. 51. T is a Benefit to have true Knowledg and Philosophy imbraced and assented to in any Ciâ—…il Society or Government But will you say therefore that it is a Benefit to the Society or one of the Ends of Government that all who are not 〈◊〉 should be punished to make Men find out the Truth and proâ—…s it This indeed might be thought a sit way to make some Men imbrace the Peripatetick Philosophy but not a proper way to find the Truth For perhaps the Peripatetick Philosophy may not be true perhâ—…ps a great many have not time nor Parts to study it perhaps a great many who have studied it cannot be conâ—…inced of the Truth of it And therefore it cannot be a Benefit
to the Commonwealth nor one of the Ends of it that these Members of the Society should be disturb'd and diseas'd to no purpose when they are guilty of no Fault For just the same Reason it cannot be a Benefit to Civil Society that Men should be punished in Denmark for not being Lutherans in Geneva for not being Calvinists and in Vienna for not being Papists as a means to make them find out the true Religion For so upon your Grounds Men must be treated in those Places as well as in England for not being of the Church of England And then I beseech you consider the great Benefit will accrue to Men in Society by this Method and I suppose it will be a hard thing for you to prove That ever Civil Governments were instituted to punish Men for not being of this or that Sect in Religion however by Accident indirectly and at a distance it may be an occasion to one perhaps of a thousand or an hundred to â—…udy that Controversy which is all you expect from it If it be a 〈◊〉 pray tell me what Benefit it is A Civil Benefit it cannot be For Mens Civil Interests are disturb'd injur'd and impair'd by it And what Spiritual Benefit that can be to any Multitude of Men to be punished for Dissenting from a false or erroneous Profession I would have you find out unless it be a Spiritual Benefit to be in danger to be driven into a wrong way For if in all differing Sects one is in the wrong 't is a hundred to one but that from which any one Dissents and is punished for Dissenting from is the wrong L. 3. p. 58. To your next Paragraph after what has already been said I think it may â—…ffice to say as follows Though perhaps the Peripâ—…tetick â—…hilosophy may not be true and perhaps it is no great matter if it be not yet the true Religion is undoubâ—…dly true And though perhaps a great many have not time nor Parts to study that Philosophy and perhaps it may be no great matter neither if they have not yet all that have the true Religion duly tender'd them have time and all but Idiots and Mad-men have Parts likewise to study it as much as it is necessary for them to study it And though perhaps a great many who have studied that Philosophy cannot be convinced of the Truth of it which perhaps is no great Wonder yet no Man â—…ver studied the true Religion with such Care and Diligence as he might and ought to use and with an honest Mind but he was convinced of the Truth of it And that those who cannot otherwise be brought to do this should be a little disturb'd and diseas'd to bring them to it I take to be the Interest not only of those particular Persons who by this means may be brought into the way of Salvation but of the Commonwealth likewise upon these two Accounts 1. Because the true Religion which this Method propagates makes good Men and good Men are always the best Subjects or Members of a Common-wealth not only as they do more sincerely and zealously promote the Publick Good than other Men but likewise in regard of the Favour of God which they often procure to the Societies of which they are Members And 2. Because this Care in any commâ—…ealth of God's Honour and Mens Salvation entitles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his special Protection and Blessing So that where this Method is used it proves both a Spiritual and a Civil Benefit to the Commonwealth You tell us the true Religion is undoubtedly true If you had told us too who is undoubtedly Judg of it you had put all past doubt but till you will be pleased to determine that it will be undoubtedly true that the King of Denmark is as undoubtedly Judg of it at Copenhagen and the Emperor at Vienna as the King of England in this Island I do not say they judg as right but they are by as much Right Judges and therefore have as much Right to punish those who dissent from Lutheranism and Popery in those Countries as any other Civil Magistrate has to punish any Dissenters from the National Religion any where else And who can deny but these Briars and Thorns laid in their way by the Penal Laws of those Countries may do some Service indirectly and at a Distance to bring Men there severely and impartially to examine Matters of Religion and so to imbrace the Truth that must save them which the bare outward Profession of any Religion in the World will not do This true Religion which is undoubtedly true you tell us too never any body studied with such Care and Diligence as he might and ought to use and with an honest Mind but he was convinced of the Truth of it If you will resolve it in your short circular way and tell me such Diligence as one ought to use is such Diligence as brings one to be convinced it is a Question too easy to be asked If I should desire to know plainly what is to be understood by it it would be a Question too hard for you to answer and therefore I shall not trouble you with demanding what this Diligence which a Man may and ought to use is nor what you mean by an honest Mind I only ask you whether Force your way applied be able to produce them that so the Commonwealth may have the Benefits you propose from Mens being convinced of and consequently imbracing the true Religion which you say no Body can miss who is brought to that Diligence and that honest Mind The Benefits to the Commonwealth are 1. That the true Religion that this Method propagates makes good Men and good Men are always the best Subjects and often procure the Favour of God to the Society they are Members of Being forward enough to grant that nothing contributes so much to the Benefit of a Society as that it be made up of good Men I began presently to give into your Method which promises so sure a way to make Men so study the true Religion that they cannot miss the being convinced of the Truth of it and so hardly avoid being really of the true Religion and consequently good Men. But that I might not mistake in a thing of that consequence I began to look about in those Countries where Force had been made use of to propagate what you allowed to be the true Religion and found Complaints of as great a Scarcity of good Men there as in other places A Friend whom I discoursed on this Point said It might possibly be that the World had not yet had the benefit of your Method because Law-makers had not yet been able to find that just Temper of Penalties on which your Propagation of the true Religion was built and that therefore it was great pity you had not yet discovered this great Secret but 't was to be hoped you would Another who stood by said he did not see how your Method could
be very true notwithstanding that as I say some are called at the third Hour some at the ninth and some at the eleventh Hour and whenever they are called they embrace all the Truths necessary to Salvation At least I do not shew why it may not And therefore this may be no Slip for any thing I have said to prove it to be one This I take not to be an Answer to my Argument which was That since some are not called till the eleventh Hour no body can know who those are who would never acquaint themselves with those Truths that must save them without Force which is therefore necessary and may indirectly and at a distance do them some service Whether that was my Argument or no I leave the Readâ—…r to judg but that you may not mistake it now again I tell you here it is so and needs another Answer Your way of using Punishments in short is this That all that conform not to the National Church where it is true as in England should be punished What for To make them consider This I told you had something of Impracticable To which you reply That you used the word only in another Sense which I mistook Whether I mistook your meaning in the use of that Word or no or whether it was natural so to take it or whether that Opinion which I charged on you by that Mistake when you tell us That not examining is indeed the next end for which they are punished be not your Opinion let us leave to the Reader for when you have that Word in what sâ—…nse you please what I said will be nevertheless true viz. ` That to punish Dissenters as Dissenters to make them consider has something impracticable in it unless not to be of the National ` Religion and not to consider be the same thing These Words you answer nothing to having as you thought a great advantage of talking about my mistake of your word only Buâ—… unless you will suppose not to be of the National Church and not to consider be the same thing it will follow thâ—…t to punish Dissenters as Dissenters to make them consider has something of Impracticable in it The Law punishes all Dissenters For what To make them all conform that 's evident To what end To make them all consider say you That cannot be for it says nothing of it nor is it certain that all Dissenters have not considered nor is there any care taken by the Law to enquire whether they have considered when they do conform yet this was the End intended by the Magistrate So then with you it is practicable and allowable in making Laws for the Legislator to lay Punishments by Law on Men for an End which they may be ignorant of for he says nothing of it on Men whom he never takes care to enquire whether they have done it or no before he relax the Punishment which had no other next End but to make them do it But though he says nothing of considering in laying on the Penalties nor asks any thing about it when he takes them off yet every body must understand that he so meant it Sir Sancho Pancha in the Government of his Island did not expect that Men should understand his meaning by his gaping but in another Island it seems if you had the Management you would not think it to have any thing of Impracticable or Impolitick in it For how far the provision of Means of Instruction takes this off we shall see in another place And lastly to lay Punishments on Men for an End which is already attained for some among the Dissenters may have considered is what other Law-makers look on as impracticable or at least unjust But to this you answer in your usual way of Circle That if I suppose you are for punishing Dissenters whether they consider or no I am in a great mistake for the Dissenters which is my Word not yours whom you are for punishing are only such as reject the true Religion proposed to them with Reasons and Arguments sufficient to convince them of the Truth of it who therefore can never be supposed to consider those Reasons and Arguments as they ought whilst they persist in rejecting that Religion or in my Language continue Dissenters for if they did so consider them they would not continue Dissenters Of the Fault for which Men were to be punished distinguished from the End for which they were to be punished we heard nothing as I remember in the first Draught of your Scheme which we had in The Argument considered c. But I doubt not but in some of your general Terms you will be able to find it or what else you please for now having spoken out that Men who are of a different Religion from the true which has been tendred them with sufficient Evidence and who are they whom the wise and benign Disposer and Governour of all things has not furnished with competent Means of Salvation are Criminals and are by the Magistrate to be punished as such 't is necessary your Scheme should be compleated and whither that will carry you 't is easy to see But pray Sir are there no Conformists that so reject the â—…ue Religion and would you have them punished too as you here profess Make that practicable by your Scheme and you have done something to perswade us that your End in earnest in the Use of Force is to make Men consider understand and be of the True Religion and that the rejecting the true Religion tender'd with sufficient Evidence is the Crime which bonâ fide you would have punished and till you do this all that you may say concerning punishing Men to make them consider as they ought to make them receive the true Religion to make them imbrace the Truth that must save them c. will with all sober judicious and unbiassed Readers pass only for the Mark of great Zeal if it scape amongst Men as warm and as sagacious as you are a harsher Name whilst those Conformists who neglect Matters of Religion who reject the saving Truths of the Gospel as visibly and as certainly as any Dissenters have yet no Penalties laid upon them You talk much of considering and not considering as one ought of imbracing and rejecting the true Religion and abundance more to this purpose which all however very good and savoury Words that look very well when you come to the Application of Force to procure that End expressed in them amount to no more but Conformity and Non-conformity If you see not this I pity you for I would fain think you a fair Man who means well though you have not light upon the right way to the End you propose But if you see it and persist in your Use of these good Expressions to lead Men into a Mistake in this Matter consider what my Pagans and Mahometans could do worse to serve a bad Cause Whatever you may
And your Law will reach no body till you have convinced him he is in the wrong Way and then there will be no need of Punishment to make him consider unless you will affirm again what you have denied and have Men punished for imbracing the Religion they believe to be true when it differs from yours or the Publick Besides being in the wrong Way those who you would have punished must be such as are deaf to all Perswasions But any such I suppose you will hardly sind who hearken to no body not to those of their own Way If you mean by deaf to all Perswasions all Perswasions of a contrary Party or of a different Church such I suppose you may abundantly find in your own Church as well as else-where and I presume to them you are so charitable that you would not have them punished for not lending an Ear to Seducers For Constancy in the Truth and Perseverance in the Faith is I hope rather to be incouraged than by any Penalties check'd in the Orthodox And your Church doubtless as well as all others is Orthodox to it self in all its Tenets If you mean by all Perswasion all your Perswasion or all Perswasion of those of your Communion you do but beg the Question and suppose you have a right to punish those who differ from and will not comply with you Your next Words are When Men fly from the means of a right Information and will not so much as consider how reasonable it is throughly and impartially to examine a Religion which they embraced upon such Inducements as ought to have no sway at all in the matter and therefore with little or no Examination of the proper Grounds of it What humane Method can be used to bring them to act like Men in an Affair of such consequence and to make a wiser and more rational Choice but that of laying such Penalties upon them as may ballance the weight of those Prejudices which inclined them to prefer a false Way before the true and recover them to so much Sobriety and Refâ—…ction as seriously to put the question to themselves Whether it be really worth the while to undergo such Inconveniences for adhering to a Religion which for any thing they know may be false or for rejecting another if that be the case which for any thing they know may be true till they have brought it to the Bar of Reason and given it a fair trial there Here you again bring in such as prefer a false Way before a true to which having answered already I shall here say no more but That since our Church will not allow those to be in a false Way who are out of the Church of Rome because the Church of Rome which pretends Infallibility declares hers to be the only true Way certainly no one of our Church nor any other which claims not Infallibility can require any one to take the Testimony of any Church as a sufficient Proof of the Truth of her own Doctrine So that true and false as it commonly happens when we suppose them for our selves or our Party in effect signify just nothing or nothing to the purpose unless we can think that true or false in England which will not be so at Rome or Geneva and Vice versâ As for the rest of the description of those on whom you are here laying Penalties I beseech you consider whether it will not belong to any of your Church let it be what it will Consider I say if there be none in your Church who have imbraced her Religion upon such Inducements as ought to have no sway at all in the matter and therefore with little or no Examination of the proper Grounds of it who have not been inclined by Prejudices who do not adhere to a Religion which for any thing they know may be false and who have rejected another which for any thing they know may be true If you have any such in your Communion and 't will be an admirable though I fear but a little Flock that has none such in it consider well what you have done You have prepared Rods for them for which I imagine they will con you no thanks For to make any tolerable Sense of what you here propose it must be understood that you would have Men of all Religions punished to make them consider whether it be really worth the while to undergo such Inconveniences for adhering to a Religion which for any thing they know may be false If you hope to avoid that by what you have said of true and false and pretend that the supposed Preference of the true Way in your Church ought to preserve its Members from your Punishment you manifestly trifle For every Church's Testimony that it has chosen the true Way must be taken for it self and then none will be liable and your new Invention of Punishment is come to nothing Or else the differing Churches Testimonies must be taken one for another and then they will be all out of the true Way and your Church need Penalties as well as the rest So that upon your Principles they must all or none be punished Chuse which you please one of them I think you cannot escape What you say in the next Words Where Instruction is stifly refused and all Admonitions and Perswasions prove vain and ineffectual differs nothing but in the way of expressing from Deaf to all Perswasions And so that is answered already In another place you give us another description of those you think ought to be punished in these Words Those who refuse to embrace the Doctrine and submit to the Spiritual Government of the proper Ministers of Religion who by special Designation are appointed to Exhort Admonish Reprove c. Here then those to be punished are such who refuse to imbrace the Doctrine and submit to the Government of the proper Ministers of Religion Whereby we are as much still at uncertainty as we were before who those are who by your Scheme and Laws sutable to it are to be punished since every Church has as it thinks its proper Ministers of Religion And if you mean those that refuse to imbrace the Doctrine and submit to the Government of the Ministers of another Church then all Men will be guilty and must be punished even those of your own Church as well as others If you mean those who refuse c. the Ministers of their own Church very few will incur your Penalties But if by these proper Ministers of Religion the Ministers of some particular Church are intended why do you not name it Why are you so reserved in a Matter wherein if you speak not out all the rest that you say will be to no purpose Are Men to be punished for refusing to imbrace the Doctrine and submit to the Government of the proper Ministers of the Church of Geneva For this time since you have declared nothing to the contrary let me suppose you of
and in other Places about sufficient Evidence is built upon this that the Evidence wherewith a Man proposes the true Religion he may know to be such as will not fail to gain the Assent of whosoever does what lies in him in considering it This is the Supposition without which all your Talk of sufficient Evidence will do you no Service try it where you will But it is a Supposition that is far enough from carrying with it sufficient Evidence to make it be admitted without Proof Whatever gains any Man's Assent one may be sure had sufficient Evidence in respect of that Man But that is far enough from proving it Evidence sufficient to prevail on another let him consider it as long and as much as he can The Tempers of Mens Minds the Principles setled there by Time and Education beyond the Power of the Man himself to alter them the different Capacities of Mens Understandings and the strange Ideas they are often silled with are so various and uncertain that it is impossible to find that Evidence especially in things of a mixed Disquisition depending on so long a Tâ—…ain of Consequences as some Points of the true Religion may which one can considently say will be sufficient for all Men. ' â—…is Demonstration that 3 1876 is the Product of 9467172 divided by 297 and yet I challenge you to find one Man of a thousand to whom you can tender this Proposition with demonstrative or sufficient Evidence to convince him of the Truth of it in a dark Room or ever to make this Evidence appear to a Man that cannot write and read so as to make him imbrace it as a Truth if another whom he hath more Confidence in tells him it is not so All the demonstrative Evidence the thing has all the Tender you can make of it all the Consideration he can imploy about it will never be able to discover to him that Evidence which small convince him it is true unless you will at threescore and ten for that may be the Case have him neglect his Calling go to School and learn to write and read and cast Account which he may never be able to attain to You speak more than once of Mens being brought to lay aside their Prejudices to make them consider as they ought and judg right of Matters in Religion and I grant without doing so they cannot But it is impossible for Force to make them do it unless it could shew them which are Prejudices in their Minds and distinguish them from the Truths there Who is there almost that has not Prejudices that he does not know to be so and what can Force do in that Case It can no more remove them to make way for Truth than it can remove one Truth to make way for another or rather remove an establish'd Truth or that which is look'd on as an unquestionable Principle for so are often Mens Prejudices to make way for a Truth not yet known nor appearing to be one 'T is not every one knows or can bring himself to Des Carteâ—… way of doubting and strip his Thoughts of all Opinions till he brings them to self-evident Principles and then upon them builds all his future Tenents Do not think all the World who are not of your Church abandon themselves to an utter Carelesness of their future State You cannot but allow there are many Turks who sincerely seek Truth to whom yet you could never bring Evidence sufficient to convince them of the Truth of the Christian Religion whilst they looked on it as a Principle not to be question'd that the Alcoran was of Divine Revelation This possibly you will tell me is a Prejudice and so it is but yet if this Man shall tell you 't is no more a Prejudice in him than it is a Prejudice in any one amongst Christians who having not examin'd it lays it down as an unquestionable Principle of his Religion that the Scripture is the Word of God what will you answer to him And yet it would shake a great many Christians in their Religion if they should lay by that Prejudice and suspend their Judgment of it until they had made it out to themselves with Evidence sufficient to convince one who is not prejudiced in Favour of it and it would require more Time Books Languages Learning and Skill than falls to most 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to establish them therein if you will not allow them in this so 〈◊〉 and fundamental a Point to rely on the Learning Knowledg and Judgment of some Persons whom they have in Reverence or Admiration This though you blame it as an ill way yet you can allow in one of your own Religion even to that Degree that he may be ignorant of the Grounds of his Religion And why then may you not allow it to a Turk not as a good way or as having led him to the Truth but as a way as sit for him as for one of your Church to acquiesce in and as sit to exempt him from your Force as to exempt any one of your Church from it To prevent your commenting on this in which you have shewn so much Dexterity give me leave to tell you that for all this I do not think all Religions equally true or equally certain But this I say is impossible for you or me or any Man to know whether another has done his Duty in examining the Evidence on both sides when he imbraces that side of the Question which we perhaps upon other Views judg false and therefore we can have no Right to punish or persecute him for it In this whether and how far any one is faulty must be left to the Searcher of Hearts the great and righteous Judg of all Men who knows all their Circumstances all the Powers and Workings of their Minds where 't is they sincerely follow and by what Default they at any time miss Truth And he we are sure will judg uprightly But when one Man shall think himself a competent Judg that the true Religion is proposed with Evidence sufficient for another and thence shall take upon him to punish him as an Offender because he imbraces not upon Evidence that he the Proposer judges sufficient the Religion that he judges true had need be able to look into the Thoughts of Men and know their several Abilities unless he will make his own Understanding and Faculties to be the Measure of those of all Mankind which if they be no higher elevated no larger in their Comprehension no more discerning than those of some Men he will not only be unsit to be a Judg in that but in almost any Case what soever But since 1. You make it a Condition to the making a Man an Offender in not being of the true Religion that it has been tendred him with sufficient Evidence 2. Since you think it so easy for Men to determine when the true Religion has been tender'd to any one with sufficient
Force And your Method of using this Force is to punish all the Dissenters from the National Religion and none of those who outwardly conform to it Make this practicable now in any Country in the World without allowing the Magistrate to be Judg what is the Truth that must save them and without supposing also that whoever do imbrace the outward Profession of the National Religion do in their Hearts imbrace i. e. believe and obey the Truth that must save them and then I think nothing in Government can be too hard for your undertaking You conclude this Paragraph in telling me You do not know of any thing I say against any part of this which is not already answered Pray tell me where 't is you have answered those Objections I made to those several Ends which you assigned in your Argument considered and for which you would have Force used and which I have here reprinted again because I do not find you so much as take notice of them and therefore the Reader must judg whether they needed any Answer or no. But to shew that you have not here where you promise and pretend to do it clearly and directly told us for what Force and Penalties are to be used I shall in the next Chapter examine what you mean by bringing Men to imbrace the True Religion CHAP. VII Of your bringing Men to the True Religion TRue Religion is on all hands acknowledged to be so much the Concern and Interest of all Mankind that nothing can be named which so much effectually bespeakâ—… the Approbation and Favour of the Publick The very intitling one's self to that sets a Man on the right side Who dares question such a Cause or oppose what is offered for the promoting the True Religion This Advantage you have secured to your self from unattentive Readers as much as by the often-repeated mention of the True Religion is possible there being scarce a Page wherein the True Religion does not appear as if you had nothing else in your Thoughts but the bringing Men to it for the Salvation of their Souls Whether it be so in earnest we will now see You tell us Whatever Hardships some false Religions may impose it will however always be easier to carnal and worldly minded Men to give even the first-born for their Transgressions than to mortify the Lusts from which they spring which no Religion but the True requires of them Upon this you ground the Neâ—…essity of Force to bring Men to the True Religion and charge it on the Magistrate as his Duty to use it to that End What now in appearance can express greater Care to bring Men to the True Religion But let us see what you say in p. 64. and we shall sind that in your Scheme nothing less is meant there you tell us The Magistrate inflicts the Penalties only upon them that break the Lawâ—… And that Law requiring nothing but Conformity to the National Religion noâ—… but Nonconformists are punished So that unless an outward Profession of the National Religion be by the Mortification of Mens Lusts harder than their giving their First-born for their Transgression all the Penalties you contend sor concern not â—…nor can be intended to bring Men effectually to the True Religion since they leave them before they come to the Difficulty which is to mortify their Lusts as the True Religion requires So that your bringing Men to the True Religion being to bring them to Conformity to the National for then you have done with Force how far that outward Consormity is from being heartily of the True Religion may be known by the distance there is between the easiest and the hardest thing in the World For there is nothing easier than to profess in Words nothing harder than to subdue the Heart and bring Thoughts and Deeds into Obedience of the Truth The latter is what is required to be of the True Religion the other all that is required by Penalties your way applied If you say Conformists to the National Religion are required by the Law Civil and Ecclesiastical to lead good Lives which is the difficult part of the True Religion I answer These are not the Laws we are here speaking of nor those which the Defenders of Toleration complain of but the Laws that put a distinction between outward Conformists and Nonconformists and those they say whatever may be talked of the True Religion can never be meant to bring Men really to the True Religion as long as the True Religion is and is confessed to be a thing of so much greater difficulty than outward Conformity Miracles say you supplied the want of Force in the beginning of Christianity and therefore so far as they supplied that Want they must be subservient to the same End The End then was to bring Men into the Christian Church into which they were admitted and received as Brethren when they acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ the Son of God Will that serve the turn No Force must be used to make Men imbrace Creeds and Ceremonies i. e. outwardly conform to the Doctrine and Worship of your Church Nothing more than that is required by your Penalties nothing less than that will excuse from Punishment that and nothing but that will serve the turn that therefore and only that is what you mean by the True Religion you would have Force used to bring Men to When I tell you You have a very ill Opinion of the Religion on of the Church of England and must own it can only be propagated and supported by Force if you do not think it would be a Gainer by a general Toleration all the World over You ask Why you may not have as good an Opinion of the Church of England's as you have of Noah's Religion notwithstanding you think it cannot now be propagated or supported without using some kinds or degrees of Force When you have proved that Noah's Religion that from eight Persons spread and continued in the World till the Apostles Times as I have proved in another place was propagated and supported all that while by your kinds or degrees of Force you may have some reason to think as well of the Religion of the Church of England as you have of Noah's Religion though you think it cannot be propagated and supported without some kinds or degrees of Force But till you can prove that you cannot upon that ground say you have reason to have so good an Opinion of it You tell me If I will take your Word for it you assure me you think there are many other Countries in the World besides England where my Toleration would be as little useful to Truth as in England If you will name those Countries which will be no great pains I will take your word for it that you believe Toleration there would be prejudicial to Truth but if you will not do that neither I nor any body else can believe you I
at the Sacrament Now that Uniformity is thought sufficiently preserved without kneeling at Prayer is evident by the various Postures Men are at liberty to use and may be generally observed in all our Congregations during the Minister's Prayer in the Pulpit before and after his Sermon which it seems can consist well enough with Decency and Uniformity tho it be at Prayer addressed to the great God of Heaven and Earth to whose Majesty it is that the Reverence to be expressed in our Gestures is due when we put up Petitions to him who is invariably the same in what or whose Words soever we address our selves to him The Preface to the Book of Common-Prayer tells us That the Riâ—…es and Ceremonies appointed to be used in Divine Worship are things in their own Nature indifferent and alterable Here I ask you whether any humane Power can make any thing in its own nature indifferent necessary to Salvation If it cannot then neither can any Humane Power be justified in the use of Force to bring Men to Conformity in the use of such things If you think Men have Authority to make any thing in it self indifferent a necessary part of God's Worship I shall desire you to consider what our Author says of this Matter which has not yet deserved your notice The misapplying his Power you say is a Sin in the Magistrate and lays him open to Divine Vengeance And is it not a misapplying of his Power and a Sin in him to use Force to bring Men to such a Compliance in an indifferent thing which in Religious Worship may be a Sin to them Force you say may be used to punish those who dissent from the Communion of the Church of England Let us suppose now all its Doctrines not only true but necessary to Salvation but that there is put into the Terms of its Communion some indifferent Action which God has not enjoin'd nor made a part of his Worship which any Man is perswaded in his Conscience not to be lawful suppose kneeling at the Sacrament which having been superstitiously used in Adoration of the Bread as the real Body of Christ may give occasion of scruple to some now as well as eating of Flesh offered to Idols did to others in the Apostles time which though lawful in it self yet the Apostle said he would eat no Flesh while the World standeth rather than make his weak Brother offend And if to lead by Example the Scrupulous into any Action in it self indifferent which they thought unlawful be a Sin as appears at large Rom. XIV how much more is it to add Force to our Example and to compel Men by Punishments to that which though indifferent in it self they cannot join in without sinning I desire you to shew me how Force can be necessary in such a Case without which you acknowledg it not to be lawful Not to kneel at the Lord's Supper God not having ordained it is not a Sin and the Apostles receiving it in the Posture of sitting or lying which was then used at Meat is an Evidence it may be received not kneeling But to him that thinks Kneeling is unlawful it is certainly a Sin And for this you may take the Authority of a very Judicious and Reverend Prelate of our Church in these Words Where a Man is mistaken in his Judgment even in that Case it is always a Sin to act against it by so doing he wilfully acts against the best Light which at present he has for the direction of his Actions I need not here repeat his Reasons having already quoted him above more at large though the whole Passage writ as he uses with great Strength and Clearness deserves to be read and considered If therefore the Magistrate enjoins such an unnecessary Ceremony and uses Force to bring any Man to a sinful Communion with our Church in it let me ask you Doth he sin or misapply his Power or no True and false Religions are Names that easily engage Mens Affections on the hearing of them the one being the Aversion the other the Desire at least as they perswade themselves of all Mankind This makes Men forwardly give into these Names where-ever they meet with them and when mention is made of bringing Men from false to the true Religion very often without knowing what is meant by those Names they think nothing can be done too much in such a Business to which they intitle God's Honour and the Salvation of Mens Souls I shall therefore desire of you if you are that fair and sincere Lover of Truth you profess when you write again to tell us what you mean by true and what by a false Religion that we may know which in your sense are so for as you now have used these Words in your Treatise one of them seems to stand only for the Religion of the Church of England and the other for that of all other Churches I expect here you should make the same Outcries against me as you have in your former Letter for imposing a Sense upon your Words contrary to your Meaning and for this you will appeal to your own Words in some other Places but of this I shall leave the Reader Judg and tell him this is a Way very easy and very usual for Men who having not clear and consistent Notions keep themselves as much as they can under the shelter of general and variously applicable Terms that they may save themselves from the Absurdities or Consequences of one Place by a help from some general or contrary Expression in another Whether it be a desire of Victory or a little too warm Zeal for a Cause you have been hitherto perswaded of which hath led you into this way of writing I shall only mind you that the Cause of God requires nothing but what may be spoken out plainly in a clear determined Sense without any reserve or cover In the mean time this I shall leave with you as evident That Force upon your ground cannot be lawfully used to bring Men to the Communion of the Church of England that being all that I can find you clearly mean by the True Religion till you have proved that all that is required of one in that Communion is necessary to Salvation However therefore you tell us That convenient Force used to bring Men to the true Religion is all that you contend for and all that you allow That it is for promoting the true Religion That it is to bring Men to consider so as not to reject the Truth necessary to Salvation .... To bring Men to imbrace the Truth that must save them And abundance more to this purpose Yet all this Talk of the true Religion amounting to no more but the National Religion established by Law in England and your bringing Men to it to no more than bringing them to an outward Profession of it it would better have suted that Condition viz. without Prejudice
and with an honest Mind which you require in others to have spoke plainly what you aimed at rather than prepossess Mens Minds in favour of your Cause by the Impressions of a Name that in truth did not properly belong to it It was not therefore without ground that I said I suspected you built all on this lurking Supposition that the National Religion now in England back'd by the publick Authority of the Law is the only true Religion and therefore no other is to be tolerated which being a Supposition equally unavoidable and equally just in other Countries unless that we can imagine that every-where but in England Men believe what at the same time they think to be a Lie c. Here you erect your Plumes and to this your triumphant Logick gives you not Patience to answer without an Air of Victory in the entrance How Sir is this Supposition equally unavoidable and equally just in other Countries where false Religions are the National for that you must mean or nothing to the purpose Hold Sir you go too fast take your own System with you and you will perceive it will be enough to my purpose if I mean those Religions which you take to be false for if there be any other National Churches which agreeing with the Church of England in what is necessary to Salvation yet have established Ceremonies different from those of the Church of England should not any one who dissented here from the Church of England upon that account as preferring that to our Way of Worship be justly punished If so then Punishment in Matters of Religion being only to bring Men to the true Religion you must suppose him not to be yet of it and so the National Church he approves of not to be of the true Religion And yet is it not equally unavoidable and equally just that that Church should suppose its Religion the only true Religion as it is that yours should do so it agrecing with yours in things necessary to Salvation and having made some things in their own nature indifferent requisite to Conformity for Decency and Order as you have done So that my saying It is equally unavoidable and equally just in other Countries will hold good without meaning what you charge on me that that Supposition is equally unavoidable and equally just where the National Religion is absolutely false But in that large Sense too what I said will hold good and you would have spared your useless Subtilties against it if you had been as willing to take my Meaning and answered my Argument as you were to turn what I said to a Sense which the Words themselves shew I never intended My Argument in short was this That granting Force to be useful to propagate and support Religion yet it would be no Advantage to the true Religion that you a Member of the Church of England supposing yours to be the true Religion should thereby claim a Right to use Force since such a Supposition to those who were Members of other Churches and believed other Religions was equally unavoidable and equally just And the Reason I annexed shews both this to be my Meaning and my Assertion to be true My Words are Unless we can imaginâ—… that every-where but in England Men believe what at the samâ—… time they think to be a Lie Having therefore never said nor thought that it is equally unavoidable or equally just that Men in every Country should believe the National Religion of the Country but that it is equally unavoidable and equally just that Men believing the National Religion of their Country be it true or false should suppose it to be true and let me here add also should endeavour to propagate it you however go on thus to reply If so then I fear it will be equally true too and equally rational for otherwise I see not how it can be equally unavoidable or equally just for if it be not equally true it cannot be equally just and if it be not equally rational it cannot be equally unavoidable But if it be equally true and equally rational then either all Religions are true or none is true for if they be all equally true and one of them be not true then none of them can be true I challenge any one to put these four good Words unavoidable just rational and true more equally together or to make a better-wrought Deduction but after all my Argument will nevertheless be good that it is no Advantage to your Cause for you or any one of it to suppose yours to be the only true Religion since it is equally unavoidable and equally just for any one who believes any other Religion to suppose the same thing And this will always be so till you can shew that Men cannot receive false Religions upon Arguments that appear to them to be good or that having received Falshood under the appearance of Truth they can whilst it so appears do otherwise than value it and be acted by it as if it were true For the Equality that is here in question depends not upon the Truth of the Opinion imbraced but on this that the Light and Perswasion a Man has at present is the Guide which he ought to follow and which in his Judgment of Truth he cannot avoid to be governed by And therefore the terrible Consequences you dilate on in the following part of that Page I leave you for your private Use on some sitter Occasion You therefore who are so apt without cause to complain of want of Ingenuity in others will do well hereafter to consult your own and another time change your Stile and not under the undesined Name of the true Religion because that is of more Advantage to your Argument mean only the Religion established by Law in England shutting out all other Religions now professed in the World Though when you have defined what is the true Religion which you would have supported and propagated by Force and have told us 't is to be found in the Liturgy and thirty nine Articles of the Church of England and it be agreed to you that that is the only true Religion your Argument for Force as necessary to Mens Salvation from the want of Light and Strength enough in the true Religion to prevail against Mens Lusts and the Corruption of their Nature will not hold because your bringing Men by Force your way applied to the true Religion be it what you will is but bringing them to an outward Conformity to the National Church But the bringing them so far and no farther having no opposition to their Lusts no Inconsistency with their corrupt Nature is not on that account at all necessary nor does at all help where only on your grounds you say there is need of the Assistance of Force towards their Salvation CHAP. VIII Of Salvation to be procured by Force your way THere cannot be imagined a more laudable Design than the promoting the Salvation of Mens
Persons who only seek their sâ—…chlar Advantage how easy it is for them to pretend Conviction and to offer such Grounds if that were required as would become a Christian concerned for Religion that is what no Care of Man can certainly prevent This is an admirable Justification of your Hypothesis Men are to be punished To what end To make them severely and impartially consider Matters of Religion that they may be convinced and thereupon sincerely imbrace the Truth But what need of Force or Punishment for this Because their Lusts and Corruptions will otherwise keep them both from considering as they ought and imbracing the true Religion and therefore they must lie under Penalties till they have considered as they ought which is when they have upon Conviction imbraced But how shall the Magistrate know when they upon Conviction imbrace that he may then take off their Penalties That indeed cannot be known and ought not to be inquired after because irreligious Persons who only seek their secular Advantage or in other Words all those who desire at their ease to retain their beloved Lusts and Corruptions may easily pretend Conviction and offer such Grounds if it were required as would become a Christian concerned for Religion This is what no Care of Man can certainly prevent Which is Reason enough why no busy Forwardness in Man to disease his Brother should use Force upon Pretence of prevalling against Man's Corruptions that hinder their considering and imbracing the Truth upon Conviction when 't is confessed it cannot be known whether they have considered are convinced or have really imbraced the true Religion or no And thus you have shewn us your admirable Remedy which is not it seems for the irreligious for 't is easy you say for them to pretend Conviction and so avoid Punishment but for those who would be religious without it But here in this Case as to the Intention of the Magistrate how can it be said that the Force he uses is designed by subduing Mens Corruptions to make way for considering and imbracing the Trâ—…th when it is so applied that it is confessed here that a Man may get rid of the Penalties without parting with the Corruptions they are pretended to be used against But you have a ready Answer This is what no Care of Man can certainly prevent which is but in other Words to proclaim the Ridiculousness of your Use of Force and to avow that your Method can do nothing If by not certainly you mean it may any way or to any degree prevent why is it not so done If not why is a Word that signifies nothing put in unless it be for a Shelter on Occasion A Benefit you know how to draw from this way of writing But this here taken how you please will only serve to lay Blame on the Magistrate or your Hypothesis chuse you whether I for my part have a better Opinion of the Ability and Management of the Magistrate What he aimed at in his Laws that I believe he mentions in them and as wise Men do in Buâ—…nes fpoke out plainly what he had a Mind should be done But câ—…inly there cannot a more ridiculous Character be put on Law-makers than to tell the World they intended to make Men consider examine c. but yet neither required nor named any thing in their Laws but Conformity Though yet when Men are certainly to be punished for not really imbracing the true Religion there ought to be certain Matters of Fact whereby those that do and those that do not so imbrace the Truth should be distinguished and for that you have 't is true a clear and established Criterion i. e. Conformity and Nonconformity which do very certainly distinguish the Innocent from the Guilty those that really and sincerely do imbrace the Truth that must save them from those that do not But Sir to resolve the Question whether the Conviction of Mens Understandings and the Salvation of their Souls be the Business and Aim of those who use Force to bring Men into the Profession of the National Religion I ask whether if that were so there could be so many as there are not only in most Country-Parishes but I think I may say may be found in all Parts of England grosly ignorant in the Doctrines and Principles of the Christian Religion if a strict Inquiry were made into it If Force be necessary to be used to bring Men to Salvation certainly some part of it would 〈◊〉 out some of the ignorant and unconsidering that are in the National Church as well as it does so diligently all the Nonconformists out of it whether they have considered or are knowing or no. But to this you give a very ready Answer Would you have the Magistrate punish all indifferently those who obey the Law as well as them that do not What is the Obedience the Law requires That you tell us in these Words If the Magistrate provides 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Instruction of all his Subjects in the true Religion and then requires them all under convenient Penalties to 〈◊〉 to the Teachers and Ministers of it and to profess and exercise it with one Accord under their Direction in publick Assemblies Which in other Words is but Conformity which here you express a little plainer in these Words But as those Magistrates who having provided sufficiently for the Instruction of all under their Care in the true Religion do make Laws and use moderate Penalties to bring Men to the Communion of the Church of God and to conform to the Rules and Orders of it You add Is there any Pretence to say that in so doing he the Magistrate applies Force only to a part of his 〈◊〉 when the Law is general and excepts none There is no Pretence I confess to say that in so doing he applies Force only to a part of his Subjects to make them Conformists from that it is plain the Law excepts none But if Conformists may be ignorant grosly ignorant of the Principles and Doctrines of Christianity if there be no 〈◊〉 used to make them consider as they ought so as to understand be convinced of believe and obey the Truths of the Gospel are not they exempt from that Force which you say is to make Men consider and examine Matters of Religion as they ought to do Force is applied to all indeed to make them Conformists But if being Conformists once and frequenting the Places of publick Worship and there shewing an outward Compliance with the Ceremonies prescribed for that is all the Law requires of all call it how you please they are exempt from all Force and Penalties though they are never so ignorant never so far from understanding believing receiving the Truths of the 〈◊〉 I think it is evident that then Force is not applied to all to 〈◊〉 the Conviction of the Vnderstanding To bring Men to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper to convince the Mind and
them with sufficient Evidence But then to let you see how little ground you have to say that I prevaricate in this matter I shall only desire you to consider what it is that the Author and my self were enquiring after For it is not What Course is to be taken to confirm and establish those in the Truth who have already embraced it nor How they may be enabled to propagate it to others for both which Purposes I have already acknowledged it very useful and a thing much to be desired that all such Persons should as far as they are able search into the Grounds upon which their Religion stands and challenges their Belief but the Subject of our Enquiry is only What Method is to be used 〈◊〉 bring Men to the true Religion Now if this be the only thing we were inquiring after as you cannot deny it to be then every one sees that in speaking to this Point I had nothing to do with any who have already imbraced the true Religion because they are not to be brought to that Religion but only to be confirmed and edified in it but was only to consider how those who reject it may be brought to imbrace it So that how much soever any of those who own the true Religion may be guilty of neglect of Examination 't is evident I was only concerned to shew how it may be cured in those who by reason of it reject the true Religion duly proposed or tender'd to them And certainly to confine my self to this is not to prevaricate unless to keep within the Bounds which the Question under debate prescribes me be to prevaricate In telling me therefore that I dare not say that the Ignorant the Careless the Inconsiderate the Negligent in examining c. i. e. all that are such are to be punished you only tell me that I dare not be impertinent And therefore I hope you will excuse me if I take no notice of the three Reasons you offer in your next Page for your saying so And yet if I had had a mind to talk impertinently I know not why I might not have dared to do so as well as other Men. There is one thing more in this Paragraph which though nothing more pertinent than the rest I shall not wholly pass over It lies in these Words He that reads your Treatise with Attention will be more confirm'd in this Opinion viz. That I use want of Examination only for a Pretence to punish Dissenters c. when he shall find that you who are so earnest to have Men punish'd to bring them to consider and examine that so they may discover the Way of Salvation have not said one Word of considering searching and hearkning to the Scripture which had been as good a Rule for a Christian to have sent them to as to Reasons and Arguments proper to convince them of you know not what c. How this confirms that Opinion I do not see nor have you thought fit to instruct me But as to the thing it self viz. my not saying one Word of considering searching and hearkning to the Scripture whatever Advantage a captious Adversary may imagine he has in it I hope it will not seem strange to any indifferent and judicious Person who shall but consider that throughout my Treatise I speak of the true Religion only in general i. e. not as limited to any particular Dispensation or to the Times of the Scriptures but as reaching from the Fall of Adam to the End of the World and so comprehending the Times which preceded the Scriptures wherein yet God left not himself without Witness but furnished Mankind with sufficient Means of knowing Him and his Will in order to their eternal Salvation For I appeal to all Men of Art whether speaking of the True Religion under this Generality I could be allowed to descend to any such Rules of it as belong only to some particular Times or Dispensations such as you cannot but acknowledg the Old and New Testaments to be In this your Answer you say the Subject of our Inquiry is only what Method is to be used to bring Men to the true Religion He that reads what you say again and again That the Magistrate is impower'd and obliged to procure as much as in him lies i. e. as far as by Penalties it can be procured that NO MAN neglect his Soul and shall remember how many Pages you imploy A. p 6 c. And here p. 6 c. to shew that it is the Corruption of humane Nature which hinders Men from doing what they may and ought for the Salvation of their Souls and that therefore Penalties no other means being left and Force were necessary to be used by the Magistrate to remove these great Obstacles of Lâ—…sts and Corruptions that none of his Subjects might remain ignorant of the way of Salvation or refuse to imbrace it One would think your Inquiry had been after the means of CVRING MENS Aversion to the true Religion which you tell us p. 53. if not cured is certainly destructive of Mens Eternal Salvation that so they might heartily imbrace it for their Salvation But here you tell us your Inquiry is only what Method is to be used to bring Men to the true Religion whereby you evidently mean nothing but outward Conformity to that which you think the true Church as appears by the next following Words Now if this be the only thing we were inquiring after then every one sees that in speaking to this Point I had nothing to do with any who have already imbraced the true Religion And also every one sees that since amongst those with whom having already imbraced the true Religion you and your Penalties have nothing to do there are those who have not considered and examined Matters of Religion as they ought whose Lusts and corrupt Natures keep them as far alienated from believing and as averse to a real obeying the Truth that must save them as any other Men it is manifest that imbracing the true Religion in your Sense is only imbracing the outward Profession of it which is nothing but outward Conformity And that being the furthest you would have your Penalties pursue Men and there leave them with as much of their Ignorance of the Truth and Carelesness of their Souls as they please who can deny but that it would be impertinent in you to consider how want of impartial Examination or Aversion to the true Religion should in them be cured because they are none of those Subjects of the Commonwealth whose spiritual and eternal Interests are by political Government to be procured or advanced none of those Subjects whose Salvation the Magistrate is to take Care of And therefore I excuse you as you desire for not taking notice of my three Reasons but whether the Reader will do so or no is more than I can undertake I hope you too will excuse me for having used so harsh a Word as
prevaricate and impute it to my want of Skill in the English Tongue But when I find a Man pretend to a great Concern for the Salvation of Mens Souls and make it one of the great Ends of Civil Government that the Magistrate should make use of Force to bring all his Subjects to consider study and examine believe and imbrace the Truth that must save them when I shall have to do with a Man who to this Purpose hath writ two Books to find out and desend the proper Remedies for that general Backwardness and Aversion which depraved humane Nature keeps Men in to an impartial Search after and hearty imbracing the true Religion and who talks of nothing less than Obligations on Soveraigns both from their particular Duty as well as from common Charity to take Care that none of their Subjects should want the Assistance of this only means left for their Salvation nay who has made it so necessary to Mens Salvation that he talks as if the Wisdom and Goodness of God would be brought in Question if those who needed it should be destitute of it and yet notwithstanding all this Shew of Concern for Mens Salvation contrives the Application of this sole Remedy so that a great many who lie under the Disease should be out of the Reach and Benefit of his Cure and never have this only Remedy applied to them When this I say is so manifestly in his Thoughts all the while that he is forced to confess that though Want or Neglect of Examination be a general Fault yet the Method he proposes for curing it does not reach to all that are guilty of it but frankly owns that he was not concerned to shew how the Neglect of Examination might be cured in those who conform but only in those who by reason of it reject the true Religion duly proposed to them which rejecting the true Religion will require a Man of Art to shew to be here any thing but Nonconformity to the National Religion When I say I meet with a Man another time that does this who is so much a Man of Art as to talk of all and mean but some talk of hearty imbracing the true Religion and mean nothing but Conformity to the National pretend one thing and mean another if you please to tell me what Name I shall give it I shall not fail for who knows how soon again I may have an occasion sor it If I would punish Men for Nonconformity without owning of it I could not use a better Pretence than to say it was to make them hearken to Reasons and Arguments proper to convince them or to make them submit to the Instruction and Government of the proper Ministers of Religion without any thing else supposing still at the bottom the Arguments for and the Ministers of my Religion to be these that till they outwardly complied with they were to be punished But if instead of outward Conformity to my Religion covered under these indesinite terms I should tell them they were to examine the Scripture which was the sixed Rule for them and me not examining could not give me a Pretence to punish them unless I would also punish Conformists as ignorant and unversed in the Scripture as they which would not do my Business But what need I use Arguments to shew that your punishing to make Men examine is designed only against Dissenters when in your Answer to this very Paragraph of mine you in plain Words acknowledg that though want of Examination be a general Fault yet the Method you propose for curing does not reach to all that are guilty of it To which if you please to add what you tell us That when Dissenters conform the Magistrate cannot know and therefore never examins whether they do it upon Reason and Conviction or no though it be certain that upon conforming Penalties the necessary Means cease it will be obvious that whatever be talked Conformity is all that is aimed at and that want of Examination is but the Pretence to punish Dissenters And this I told you any one must be convinced of who observes that you who are so earnest to have Men punished to bring them to consider and examine that so they may discover the way of Salvation have not said one Word of considering searching and hearkning to the Scripture which you were told was as good a Rule for a Christian to have sent Men to as to the Instruction and Government of the proper Ministers of Religion or to the Information of those who tell them they have mistaken ' their way and offer to shew them the right For this pâ—…ssing by the Scripture you give us this Reason that throughout your Treaâ—…se you speak of the true Religion only in general i. e. not as limited to any particular Dispensation or to the times of the Scriptures but as reaching from the Fall of Adam to the End of the World c. And then you appeal to all Men of Art whether speaking of the true Religion under this Generality you could be allowed to descend to any such Rules of it as belong only to some particular Times or Dispensations such as I cannot but acknowledg the Old and New Testaments to be The Author that you write against making it his Business as no body can doubt who reads but the first Page of his Letter to shew that it is the Duty of Christians to tolerate both Christians and others who differ from them in Religion 't is pretty strange in asserting against him that the Magistrate might and ought to use Force to bring Men to the true Religion you should mean any other Magistrate than the Christian Magistrate or any other Religion than the Christian Religion But it seems you took so little notice of the Design of your Adversary which was to prove that Christians were not to use Force to bring any one to the true Christian Religion that you would prove that Christians now were to use Force not only to bring Men to the Christian but also to the Jewish Religion or that of the true Church before the Law or to some true Religion so general that it is none of these For say you throughout your Treatise you speak of the true Religion only in general i. e. not as limited to any particular Dispensation Though one that were not a Man of Art would suspect you to be of another Mind your self when you told us the shuting out of the Jews from the Rights of the Common-wealth is a just and necessary Caution in a Christian Commonwealth which you say to justify your Exception in the beginning of your A against the Largeness of the Author's Toleration who would not have Jews excluded But speak of the true Religion only in general as much as you please if your true Religion be that by which Men must be saved can you send a Man to any better Guide to that true Religion now than the
Compliance with you shall I do here again There you tell us The Power you ascribe to the Magistrate is given him to bring Men not to his own but to the true Religion And though as our Author puts us in mind the Religion of every Prince is Orthodox to himself yet if this Power keep within its bounds it can serve the Interest of no other Religion but the true among such as have any Concern for their Eternal Salvation and those that have none deserve not to be considered because the Penalties it inables him that has it to instict are not such as may tempt such Persons either to renounce a Religion which they believe to be true or to profess one which they do not believe to be so but only such as are apt to put them upon a serious and impartial Examination of the Controversy between the Magistrate and them which is the way for them to come to the Knowledg of the Truth And if upon such Examination of the Matter they chance to sind that the Truth does not lie on the Magistrate's side they have gained thus much however even by the Magistrate's misapplying his Power that they know better than they did before where the Truth doth lie And all the hurt that comes to them by it is only the suffering some tolerable Inconveniences for their following the Light of their own Reason and the Dictates of their own Consciences which certainly is no such Mischief to Mankind as to make it more eligible that there should be no such Power vested in the Magistrate but the Care of every Man's Soul should be left to himself alone as this Author demands it should be To this I tell you That here out of abundant Kindness when Dissenters have their Heads without any cause broken you provide them a Plaister For say you if upon such Examination of the Matter i. e. brought to it by the Magistrate's Punishment they chance to find that the Truth doth not lie on the Magistrate's side they have gain'd thus much however even by the Magistrate's misapplying his Power that they know better than they did before where the Truth does lie Which is as true as if you should say Upon Examination I find such an one is out of the way to York therefore I know better than I did before that I am in the right For neither of you may be in the right This were true indeed if there were but two ways in all a Right and a Wrong To this you reply here That whoever shall consider the Penalties will you perswade your self find no Heads broken and so but little need of a Plaister The Penalties as you say are to be such as will not tempt such as have any concern for their Eternal Salvation either to renounce a Religion which they believe to be true or profess one which they believe not to be so but only such as being weigh'd in Gold-Scales are just enough or as you express it are apt to put them upon a serious and impartial Examination of the Controversy between the Magistrate and them If you had been pleased to have told us what Penalties those were we might have been able to guess whether there would have been broken Heads or no. But since you have not vouchsafed to do it and if I mistake not will again appeal to your Men of Art for another Dispensation rather than ever do it I fear no body can be sure these Penalties will not reach to something worse than a broken Head Especially if the Magistrate shall observe that you impute the Rise and Growth of salse Religions which it is the Magistrate's Duty to hinder to the Pravity of humane Nature unbridled by Authority which by what follows he may have reason to think is to use Force sufficient to counterballance the Folly Perverseness and Wickedness of Men And whether then he may not lay on Penalties sufficient if not to break Mens Heads yet to ruin them in their Estates and Liberties will be more than you can undertake And since you acknowledg here that the Magistrate may err so far in the Use of this his Power as to mistake the Persons that he lays his Penalties on will you be Security that he shall not also mistake in the Proportion of them and lay on such as Men would willingly exchange for a broken Head All the Assurance you give us of this is If this Power keep within its bounds i. e. as you here explain it If the Penalties the Magistrate makes use of to promote a false Religion do not exceed the Measure of those which he may warrantably use for the promoting the True The Magistrate may notwithstanding any thing you have said or can say use any sort of Penalties any degree of Punishment you having neither shew'd the Measure of them nor will be ever able to shew the utmost Measure which may not be exceeded if any may be used But what is this I find here If the Penalties the Magistrate makes use of to promote a FALSE RELIGION Is it possible that the Magistrate can make use of Penalties to promote a false Religion Of whom you told us but three Pages back That it may always be said of him what St. Paul said of himself that he can do nothing against the Truth but for the Truth By that one would have thought you had undertaken to us that the Magistrate could no more use Force to promote a false Religion than St. Paul could preach to promote a false Religion If you say the Magistrate has no Commission to promote a false Religion and therefore it may always be said of him what St. Paul said of himself c. I say no Minister was ever commissioned to preach Falshood and therefore it may always be said of every Minister what St. Paul said of himself that he can do nothing against the Truth but for the Truth Whereby we shall very commodiously have an infallible Guide in every Parish as well as one in every Commonwealth But if you thus use Scripture I imagine you will have reason to appeal again to your Men of Art whether though you may not be allowed to recommend to others the Examination and Use of Scripture to find the true Religion yet you your self may not use the Scripture to what Purpose and in what Sense you please for the defence of your Cause To the remainder of what I said in that Paragraph your Answer is nothing but an Exception to an Inference I made The Argument you were upon was to justify the Magistrate's inflicting Penalties to bring Men to a false Religion by the Gain those that suffered them would receive Their Gain was this That they would know better than they did before where the Truth does lie To which I replied Which is as true as if you should say upon Examination I find such an one is out of the Way to York therefore I know better than I
did before that I am in the right This Consequence you find fault with and say it should be thus Therefore I know better than I did before where the right Way lies This you tell me would have been true which was not for my Purpose These Consequences one or t'other are much-what alike true For he that of an hundred Ways amongst which there is but one right shuts out one that he discovers certainly to be wrong knows as much better than he did before that he is in the right as he knows better than before where the right Way lies For before 't was 99 to one he was not in the right and now he knows 't is but 98 to one that he is not in the right and therefore knows so much better than before that he is in the right just as much as he knows better than he did before where the right Way lies For let him upon your Supposition proceed on and every Day upon examination of a Controversy with some one in one of the remaining Ways discover him to be in the wrong he will every Day know better than he did before equally where the right Way lies and that he is in it till at last he will come to discover the right Way it self and himself in it And therefore your Inference whatever you think is as much as the other for my Purpose which was to shew what a notable Gain a Man made in the variety of false Opinions and Religions in the World by discovering that the Magistrate had not the Truth on his side and what Thanks he owed the Magistrate for inslicting Penalties upon him so much for his Improvement and for affording him so much Knowledg at so cheap a rate And should not a Man have reason to boast of his Purchase if he should by Penalties be driven to hear and examine all the Arguments can be proposed by those in Power for all their foolish and false Religions And yet this Gain is what you propose as a Justification of Magistrates inslicting Penalties for the promoting their false Religions And an impartial Examination of the Controversy between them and the Magistrate you tell us here is the way for such as have any concern for their eternal Salvation to come to the knowledg of the Truth To my saying ` He that is punished may have examined before ` and then I am sure he gains nothing You reply But neither does he lose much if it be true which you there add that all the Hurt that befalls him is only the suffering some tolerable Inconvenience for his following the Light of his own Reason and the Dictates of his Conscience So it is therefore you would have a Man rewarded for being an honest Man for so is he who follows the Light of his own Reason and the Dictates of his Conscience only with the suffering some tolerable Inconveniences And yet those tolerable Inconveniences are such as are to counterballance Mens Lusts and the Corruption of depraved Nature which you know any slight Penalty is sufficient to master But that the Magistrate's Discipline shall stop at those your tolerable Inconveniences is what you are loth to be Guarantee for For all the Security you dare give of it is If it be true which you there add But if it should be otherwise the Hurt may be more I see than you are willing to answer for L. 2. p. 64. However you think you do well to incourage the Magistrate in punishing and comfort the Man who has suffer'd unâ—…stly by shewing what he shall gain by it Whereas on the contrary in a Discourse of this Nature where the Bounds of Right and Wrong are enquired into and should be establish'd the Magistrate was to be shew'd the Bounds of his Authority and warn'd of the Injury he did when he misapplies his Power and punish'd any Man who deserv'd it not and not be sooth'd into Injustice by consideration of Gain that might thence accrue to the Sufferer Shall we do Evil that Good may come of it There are a sort of People who are very wary of touching upon the Magistrate's Duty and tender of shewing the bounds of his Power and the Injustice and ill Consequences of his misapplying 〈◊〉 at least so long as it is misapply'd in favour of them and their Party I know not whether you are of their number But this I am sure you have the misfortune here to fall into their Mistake The Magistrate you confess may in this case misapply his Power And instead of representing to him the Injustice of it and the Account he must give to his Sovereign one day of this great Trust put into his Hands for the equal Protection of all his Subjects you pretend Advantages which the Sufferer may receive from it And so instead of disheartning from you give encouragement to the Mischief Which upon your Principle join'd to the natural thirst in Man after Arbitrary Power may be carried to all manner of Exorbitancy with some pretence of Right L. 3. p. 71. As to what you say here of the nature of my Discourse I shall only put you in mind that the Question there debated is Whether the Magistrate has any Right or Authority to use Force for the promoting the true Religion Which plainly supposes the Vnlawfulness and Injustice of using Force to promote a false Religion as granted on both sides So that I could no way be obliged to take notice of it in my Discourse but only as occasion should be offer'd And whether I have not shew'd the bounds of the Magistrate's Authority as far as I was any way obliged to do it let any indifferent Person judg But to talk here of a sort of People who are very wary of touching upon the Magistrate's Duty and tender of shewing the bounds of his Power where I tell the Magistrate that the Power I ascribe to him in reference to Religion is given him to bring Men not to his own but to the true Religion and that he misapplies it when he endeavours to promote a false Religion by it is methinks at least a little unseasonable Nor am I any more concern'd in what you say of the Magistrate's misapplying his Power in favour of a Party For as you have not yet proved that his applying his Power to the promoting the true Religion which is all that I contend for is misapplying it so much less can you prove it to be misapplying it in favour of a Party But that I encourage the Magistrate in punishing Men to bring them to a false Religion for that is the punishing we here speak of and sooth him into Injustice by shewing what those who suffer unjustly shall gain by it when in the very same breath I tell him that by so punishing he misapplies his Power is a Discovery which I believe none but your self could have made When I say that the Magistrate misapplies his Power by so punishing I suppose all other Men
answer And yet God himself foretold and promised that Kings should be Nursing Fathers and Queens Nursing Mothers to his Church If we may judg of this Prophecy by what is past or present we shall have reason to think it concerns not our Days or if it does that God intended not that the Church should have many such Nursing Fathers and Nursing Mothers that were to nurse them up with moderate Penalties if those were to be the Swadling-Clouts of this Nursery Perhaps if you read that Chapter you will think you have little reason to build much on this Promise till the restoring of Israel And when you see the Gentiles bring Thy i. e. 〈◊〉 the stile of the Chapter seems to import the Sons of the Israelites Sons in their Arms and thy Daughters be carried upon their Shoulders as is promised in the immediately preceding Words you may conclude that then Kings shall be thy i. e. Israels Nursing Fathers and Queens thy Nursing Mothers This seems to me to be the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by that Prophecy and I guess to a great many others upon an attentive reading that Chapter in Isaiah And to all such this Text will do you little Service till you make out the meaning of it better than by barely quoting of it which will scarce ever prove that God hath promised that so many Princes shall be Friends to the true Religion that it will be better for the true Religion that Princes should use Force for the imposing or propagating of their Religions than not For unless it prove that it answers not the Author's Argument as an indifferent Reader must needs see For he says not Truth never but she seldom 〈◊〉 received and he fears never will receive not any but much assistance from the Power of Great Men to whom she is BVT RARELY KNOWN and more RARELY WELCOME And therefore to this of Isaiah pray join that of St. Paul to the Corinthians Not many wise not many mighty not many noble But supposing many Kings were to be Nursing Fathers to the Church and that this Prophecy were to be fulfilled in this Age and the Church were now to be their Nursery 'T is I think more proper to understand this figurative Promise that their Pains and Discipline was to be imploy'd on these in the Church and that they should feed and cherish them rather than that these Words meant that they should whip those that were out of it And therefore this Text will I suppose upon a just consideration of it signify very little against the known matter of Fact which the Author urges Unless you can find a Country where the Cudgel and the Scourge are more the Badges and Instruments of a good Nurse than the Breast and the 〈◊〉 and that she is counted a good Nurse of her own Child who 〈◊〉 her self in whiping Children not hers 〈◊〉 belonging to her Nursery The 〈◊〉 which give you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to hope for any advantage from the Authors Toleration which almost all but the Church of England injoy'd in the Times of the Blessed Reformation as it was called you tell us were Sects and Heresies Here your Zeal hangs a little in your Light It is not the Author's Toleration which here you accuse That you know is universal And the universality of it is that which a little before you wondred at and complained of Had it been the Author's Toleration it could not have been almost all but the Church of England but it had been the Church of England and all others But let us take it that Sects and 〈◊〉 were or will be the Fruits of a free Toleration i. e. 〈◊〉 are divided in their opinions and ways of Worship Differences in ways of Worship wherein there is nothing mixed inconsistent with the true Religion will not hinder Men from Salvation who sincerely follow the best Light they have which they are as likely to do under Toleration as Force And as for 〈◊〉 of Opinions speculative Opinions in Religion I think I may safely say that there are 〈◊〉 any where three considering Men for 't is want of Consideration you would punish who are in their Opinions throughout of the same Mind Thus far then if Charity be preserved which it is likelier to be where there is Toleration than where there is Persecution though without Uniformity I see no great reason to complain of those ill Fruits of Toleration But Men will run as they did in the late Times into dangerous and destructive Errors and extravagant ways of Worship As to Errors in Opinion If Men upon Toleration be so apt to vary in Opinions and run so wide one from another 't is evident they are not so averse to thinking as you complain For 't is hard for Men not under Force to quit one Opinion and imbrace another without thinking of them But if there be danger of that It is most likely the National Religion should sweep and draw to its self the loose and unthinking part of Men who without Thought as well as without any contest with their corrupt Nature may imbrace the Profession of the countenanced Religion and join in outward Communion with the great and ruling Men of the Nation For he that troubles not his Head at all about Religion what other can so well suit 〈◊〉 as the National with which the Cry and Preferments go And where it being as you say presumable that he makes that his Profession upon Conviction and that he is in earnest he is sure to be Orthodox without the pains of examining and has the Law and Government on his side to make it good that he is in the right But Seducers if they be tolerated will be ready at hand and diligent and Men will hearken to them Seducers surely have no Force on their side to make People hearken And if this be so there is a Remedy at hand 〈◊〉 than Force if you and your Friends will use it which cannot but prevail And that is let the Ministers of Truth be as diligent And they bringing Truth with them Truth obvious and easy to be understand as you say what is necessary to Salvation is cannot but prevail But Seducers are hearken'd to because they teach Opinions favourable to Mens Lusts. Let the Magistrate as is his Duty hinder the Practises which their Lusts would carry them to and the Advantage will be still on the side of Truth After all Sir If as the Apostle tells the Corinthians 1 Cor. 12. 19. There must be Heresies amongst you that they which are approved may be made manifest which I beseech you is best for the Salvation of Mens Souls that they should enquire hear examine consider and then have the Liberty to profess what they are perswaded of or that having consider'd they should be forced not to own nor follow their Perswasions or else that being of the National Religion they should go ignorantly on without any Consideration at all In one case if your Penalties
prevail Men are forced to act contrary to their Consciences which is not the way to Salvation and if the Penalties prevail not you have the same Fruits Sects and Heresies as under Toleration In the other 't is true those ignorant loose unthinking Conformists do not break company with those who imbrace the Truth that will save them but I fear can no more be said to have any share in it than those who openly dissent from it For 't is not being in the Company but having on the Wedding-Garment that keeps Men from being bound Hand and Foot and cast into the dreadful and eternal Prison You tell us Force has a proper Efficacy to procure the Enlightning of the Vnderstanding and the Production of Belief viz. by making Men consider But you ascribing Mens Aversion to examine Matters of Religion to the Corruption of their Nature Force your way apply'd i. e. so that Men avoid the Penalties by an outward Conformity cannot have any proper Efficacy to procure Consideration since Men may outwardly conform and retain their Corruption and Aversion to Consideration and upon this account Force your way apply'd is absolutely impertinent But further If Force has such a proper Efficacy to procure the Production of Belief it will do more harm than good imploid by any but Orthodox Magistrates But how to put it only into Orthodox Hands is the Difficulty For I think I have proved that if Orthodox Magistrates may and ought to use Force for the promoting their Religion all that think themselves Orthodox are obliged to use it too And this may serve for an Answer to all you have said P. 16. I having said Whatever indirect Efficacy there be in Force apply'd by the Magistrate your way it makes against you Force used by the Magistrate to bring Men to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince them but which without being forced they would not consider may say you be serviceable indirectly and at a distance to make Men imbrace the Truth which must save them ` And thus say I it may be serviceable to bring Men to receive and imbrace Falshood which ` will destroy them To this you with great Triumph reply How Sir may Force used by the Magistrate to bring Men to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince them be serviceable to bring Men to imbrace Falshood such Falshood as will destroy them It seems then there are Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince Men of the truth of Falshood which will destroy them Which is certainly a very extraordinary Discovery though such as no Man can have any reason to thank you for In the first place let me ask you Where did you find or from what Words of mine do you infer that notable Proposition That there are Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince Men of the Truth of Falshood If a Magistrate of the True Religion may use Force to make Men consider Reasons and Arguments proper to convince Men of the Truth of his Religion may not a Prince of a False Religion use Force to make Men consider Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince them of what he believes to be true And may not Force thus be serviceable to bring Men to receive and imbrace Falshood In the next place Did you who argue with so much School-Subtilty as if you drank it in at the very Fountain never hear of such an ill way of Arguing as a conjunctis ad divisa There are no Arguments proper and sufficient to bring a Man into the â—…elief of what is in it-self falsâ—… whilst he knows or believes it to be false therefore there are no Arguments proper and sufficient to bring a Man into the Belief of what is in it-self false which he neither knows nor believes to be so A Senior Sophister would be laugh'd at for such Logick And yet this is all you say in that Sentence you erect for a Trophy to convince Mâ—…n of the Truth of Falshood which though not my Words but such as you in your way supply from what I said you are exceedingly pleased with and think their very repeating a Triumph But though there are no Arguments proper and sufficient to convince Men of the Truth of Falshood as Falshood yet I hope you will allow that there are Arguments proper and sufficient to make Men receive Falshoods for Truths why else do you complain of 〈◊〉 And those who imbrace Falshoods for Truths do it under the Appearance of Truth misled by those Arguments which make it appear so and so convince them And that Magistrates who take their Religion to be true though it be not so may with Force urge such Arguments you will I think grant But you talk as if no body could have Arguments proper and sufficient to convince another but he that was of your way or your Church This indeed is a new and very extraordinary discavâ—…y and such as your Brethren if you can convince them of it will have reason to thank you for For if any one was ever by Arguments and Reasons brought off or seduced from your Church to be a Dissenter there were then I think Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince him I will not name to you again Mr. Reynolds because you have charity enough to question his Sincerity Though his leaving his Country Friends and Acquaintance may be presum'd as great a Mark of his being convinced and in earnest as it is for one to write for a National Religion in a Country where it is uppermost I will not yet deny but that in you it may be pure Zeal for the True Reâ—…gion which you would have assisted with the Magiâ—…ratos Force And since you seem so much concern'd for your Sincerity in the Argument it must be granted you deserve the Character of a well-meaning Man who own your Sincerity in a way so little advantageous to your Judgment But if Mr. Reynolds in your Opinion was misled by corrupt Ends or secular Interest what do you think of a Prince now living Will you doubt his Sincerity or that he was convinced of the Truth of the Religion he professed who ventured Three Crowns for it What do you think of Mr. Chillingworth when he left the Church of England for the Romish Profession Did he do it without being convinc'd that that was the right Or was he convinc'd with Reasons and Arguments not proper or sufficient to convince him But certainly this could not be true because as you say p. 25. the Scripture does not teach any thing of it Or perhaps those that leave your Communion do it always without being convinc'd and only think they are convinc'd when they are not or are convinc'd with Arguments not proper and sufficient to convince them If no body can convince another but he that has Truth on his side you do more honour
to the first and second Letter concerning Toleration than is for the Advantage of your Cause when you impute to them the Increase of Sects and Heresies amongst us And there are some even of the Church of England have professed themselves so fully satisfied by the Reasons and Arguments in the first of them that though I dare not be positive to you whose Privilege it is to convince Men that they are convinced yet I may say 't is as presumable they are convinced having owned it as it is presumable that all that are Conformists are made so upon Reason and Conviction This I suppose may serve for an Answer to your next words That God in his just Judgment will send such as receive not the Love of Truth that they may be saved but reject it for the Pleasure they have in Vnrighteousness 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 strong Delusion i. e. such Reasons and Arguments as will prevail with Men so disposed to believe a Lie that they may be damn'd This you confess the Scripture plainly teaches us But that there are any such Reasons or Arguments as are proper and sufficient to convince or satisfy any but such resolute and obdurate Sinners of the Truth of such Falshood as will destroy them is a Position which you are sure the Scripture doth not 〈◊〉 us and which you tell me when I have better considered it you hope I will not undertake to maintain And yet if it be not maintainable what I say here is to no purpose For if there be no such Reasons and Arguments as here we speak of 't is in vain to talk of the Magistrate's using Force to make Men consider them But if you are still of the mind that no Magistrate but those who are of the True Religion can have Arguments back'd with Force proper and sufficient to convince and that in England none but resolute obdurate Sinners ever forsook or forbore the Communion of the Church of England upon Reasons and Arguments that satisfy or convince them I shall leave you to enjoy so charitable an Opinion But as to the Usefulness of Force your way applied I shall lay you down again the same Argument I used before though in Words less sitted for your Way of Reasoning on them now I know your Talent If there be any Efficacy in Force to bring Men to any Perswasion it will your Way apply'd bring more Men to Error than to Truth Your Way of using it is only to punish Men for not being of the National Religion which is the only Way you do or can apply Force without a Toleration Nonconformity is the Fault that is punish'd which Fault when it ceases the Punishment ceases But yet to make them consider is the end for which they are punish'd but whether it be or be not intended to make Men consider it alters nothing in the case Now I say that since all Magistrates who believe their Religion to be true are as much obliged to use Force to bring their Subjects to it as if it were true and since most of the National Religions of the World are erroneous if Force made use of to bring Men to the National Religion by punishing Dissenters have any Efficacy let it be what it will indirect and at a distance if you please it is like to do twenty times more harm than good because of the National Religions of the World to speak much within compass there are above 20 wrong for one that is right Indeed could Force be directed to drive all Men indifferently who are negligent and backward in it to study examine and consider seriously Matters of Religion and search out the Truth And if Men were upon their Study and Examination permitted to follow what appears to them to be right you might have some pretence for Force as serviceable to Truth in making Men consider But this is impossible but under a Toleration And I doubt whether even there Force can be so apply'd as to make Men consider and impartially examine what is true in the professed Religions of the World and to imbrace it This at least is certain that where Punishments pursue Men like outlying Deer only to the Pale of the National Church and when once they are within that leaves them free there and at ease it can do no Service to the True Religion even in a Country where the National is the true For the Penalties ceasing as soon as Men are got within the Pale and Communion of the Church they help not Men at all against that which you assign as the great Hindrance to the True Religion and which therefore in your Opinion makes Force necessary to assist it For there being no necessity that Men should leave either their Vices or Corruption or so much as their Ignorance to get within the Pale of the Church Force your way apply'd serves only to bring them even in the few Christian and Orthodox Countries to the Profession not to the Knowledg Belief or Practice of the True Religion You say corrupt Nature inclines Men from the True Religion to false ones and moderate Force is requisite to make such Men consider But such Men as out of corrupt Nature and for their Ease and carnal Pleasures chuse an erroneous Religion without considering will again as soon as they can find their Choice incommoded by those Penalties consult the same corrupt Nature and carnal Appetites and without considering any thing further conform to that Religion where they can best enjoy themselves 'T is only the conscientious part of Dissenters such as dissent not out of Indulgence to corrupt Nature but out of Perswasion who will not conform without considering as they ought And therefore your Argument from corrupt Nature is out of doors If moderate Penalties serve only to work on those who are led by corrupt Nature they are of no use but to fill the Church with Hypocrites that is to make those Men worse Hypocrites than they were before by a new Act of Hypocrisy and to corrupt the Manners of the rest of the Church by their converse with these And whether this be for the Salvation of Souls as is pretended or for some other End that the Priests of all Religions have generally so earnestly contended for it I leave to be consider'd For as for those who dissent out of Perswasion I suspect your moderate Penalties will have little effect upon them For such Men being awed by the Fear of Hell-fire if that Fear will not make them consider better than they have done moderate Penalties will be too weak to work upon them 'T is well if Dragooning and Martyring can do it But you add May it not be true nevertheless that Force your way applied may be serviceable indirectly and at a distance to bring Men to imbrace the Truth which may save them which is all you are concerned here to make good So that if it may possibly happen that it should ever bring two Men to
imbrace the Truth you have gain'd your Point and overthrown Toleration by the usefulness and necessity there is of Force For without being forced these two Men would never have considered Which is more yet than you know unless you are of his private Council who only can tell when the Season of Grace is past and the time come that Preaching Intreaty Instruction and Perswasion shall never after prevail upon a Man But whatever you are here concerned to make good are you not also concerned to remember what you say where declaring against the Magistrates having a power to use what may any way at any time upon any Person by any Accident be useful towards the promoting the true Religion you say Who sees not that however such means might chance to hit right in some few Cases yet upon the whole matter they would certainly do a great deal more harm than good And in all Pleas making use of my Words for any thing because of its usefulness it is not enough to say that it may be serviceable but it must be considered not only what it may but what it is likely to produce and the greater good or harm like to come from it ought to determine the use of it You proceed and tell me That I not content to say that Force your way applied i. e. to bring Men to imbrace the Truth which must save them may be serviceable to bring Men to imbrace Falshood which will destroy them and so is proper to do as much harm as good which seems strange enough I add to increase the Wonder that in your indirect way it is much more proper and likely to make Men receive and embrace Error than the Truth And that 1. Because Men out of the right Way are as apt and I think I may say apter to use Force than others Which is doubtless an irrefragable demonstration that Force used by the Magistrate to bring Men to receive and imbrace the Truth which must save them is much more proper and likely to make Men receive Error than the Truth And then you ask me How we come to talk here of what Men out of the right way are apt to do to bring others into their i. e. a wrong way where we are only inquiring what may be done to bring Men to the right way For you must put me in Mind you say that that is our question viz. Whether the Magistrate has any right to use Force to bring Men to the true Religion Whether the Magistrate has aright to use Force in matters of Religion as you more truly state it P. 78. is the main Question between us I confess But the Question here between us is about the usefulness of Force your way apply'd which being to punish Dissenters as Dissenters to make them consider I shew'd would do more harm than good And to this you were here answering Whereby I suppose it is plain that the Question here is about the Usefulness of Force so apply'd And I doubt not but my Readers who are not concerned when the Question in debate will not serve your turn to have another substituted will take this for a regular and natural way of Arguing viz. ` That Force your way apply'd is more proper and likely to make Men imbrace Error than the Truth because Men out of the right Way are as apt I think I may say ` apter to use Force than others You need not then ask as you do How we come to talk here of Men out of the right Way You see how If you do not I know not what help there is for your Eyes And I must content my self that any other Reader that has Eyes will not miss it And I wonder that you should since you know I have on several Occasions argued against the Use of Force in Matters of Religion upon a Supposition that if any one then all Magistrates have a just Pretence and Right to use it which has served you in some Places for Matter of great Reproof and in others of Sport and Diversion But because so plain a thing as that was so strange to you that you thought it a ridiculous Paradox to say That for all Magistrates to suppose the Religion they believed to be true was equally just and reasonable And because you took no notice of the Words adjoin'd that proved it viz. Unless we can imagine every where but in England or where the National Religion is the true Men believe what at the same time they think to be a Lie I have taken the pains to prove it to you more at large in another place and therefore shall make bold to use it here as an Argument against Force viz. That if it have any Efficacy it will do more harm than good Because Men out of the right Way are as apt or apter to use it And I shall think it a good one till you have answered it It is a good and a sure way and shews a Zeal to the Cause still to hold fast the Conclusion and whatever be in debate return still to one ' old Position I arguing against what you say for the Use of Force viz. That Force used not to convince by its own proper Efficacy but only to make Men consider might indirectly and at a distance do some Service towards the bringing Men to imbrace the Truth After other Arguments against it I say that whatever Efficacy there is in Force your way apply'd i. e. To punish all and none but Dissenters from the National Church makes against you And the first Reason I give for it is in these Words Because Men out of the right Way are as apt or apter to use Force than others Which is what you are here answering And what can be done better to answer it than to the Words I have above cited to subjoin these following Now whereas our Author says that Penalties or Force is absolutely impertinent in this case because it is not proper to convince the Mind To which you answer that though Force be not proper to convince the Mind yet it is not absolutely impertinent in this case because it may however do some Service towards the bringing Men to embrace the Truth which must save them by bringing them to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper to convince the Mind and which withâ—…ut being foâ—…ed they would not consider Here I tell you No but it is much more proper and likely to make Men receive and imbrace Error than Truth because Men out of the right Way are as apt and perhaps apter to use Force than others Which you tell me is as good a Proof you believe as the thing would admit For otherwise you suppose I would have given you a better And thus you have certainly gain'd the Cause For I having prov'd that Force your way apply'd whatever Efficacy it had would do more harm than good have not sufficiently proved that it cannot
obliged to answer when I have produced those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince Men that they ought to go to Mass. But if you had not omitted the 3 or 4 immediately preceding Lines an Art to serve a good Cause which puts me in mind of my Pagans and Mahumetans the Reader would have seen that your Reply was nothing at all to my Argument My Words were these Especially if you consider that as the Magistrate will certainly use it Force to force Men to hearken to the proper Ministers of his Religion let it be what it will so you having set no time nor bounds to this Consideration of Arguments and Reasons short of being convinced you under another c. My Argument is to shew of what advantage Force your Way apply'd is like to be to the True Religion since it puts as much Force into the Magistrate's hands as the openest Persecutors can pretend to which the Magistrates of wrong Perswasions may and will use as well as those of the true because your Way sets no other Bounds to Considering short of Complying And then I ask What Difference there is between punishing you to bring you to Mass or punishing you to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sâ—…fficient to convince you that you ought to go to Mass To which you râ—…ply That it is a Question you shall then think your self oblig'd to answer when I have produced those Reasons and Arguments that are proâ—…er and sufficient to convince Men that they ought to go to Mass. Whereas the Objection is the same Whâ—…ther there be or be not Râ—…asons and Arguments proper to convince Men that they â—…t to go to Mass for Men mâ—…st be puâ—…h on till they have so coâ—…dered as to comply And what differnce is there then bâ—…n punishing Men to bring them to Mass and punishing 〈◊〉 to make them consider so as to go to Mass But though I preâ—…d not to produce any Reasons and Arguments proper and conviâ—…e to convince you or all Men that they ought to go to Mass yet do you think there are none proper and sufficient to convince any Men And that all the Papists in thâ—… World go to Mass without believing it their Duty And whosoever believes it to be his Duty does it upon Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince him though perhaps not to convince an other that it is so or else I imagine he would never believe it at all What think you of those great Numbers of Japaneses that resisted all sorts of Torments even to Death it self for the Romish Religion And had you been in France some years since who knows but the Arguments the K. of France produced might have been proper and sufficient to have convinced you that you ought to go to Mass I do not by this think you less confident of the Truth of your Religion than you profess to be But Arguments set on with Force have a strange Efficacy upon humane Frailty and he must be well assured of his own Strength who can peremptorily affirm he is sure he should have stood what above a Million of People sunk under amongst which 't is great Confidence to say there was not one so well perswaded of the Truth of his Religion as you are of yours though some of them gave great Proofs of their Perswasion in their Sufferings for it But what the necessary Method of Force may be able to do to bring any one in your sense to any Râ—…ligion i. e. to an outward Profession of it he that thinks himself secure against must have a greater Assurance of himself than the Weakness of decayed and depraved Nature will well allow If you have any Spell against the Force of Arguments driven with Penalties and Punishments you will do well to teach it the World for it is the hard Luck of well-meaning People to be often misled by them and even the Confident themselves have not seldom fallen under them and betrayed their Weakness To my demanding if you meant Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince Men of the Truth why did you not say so You reply As if it were possible for any Man that reads your Answer to think otherwise Whoever reads that Passage in your A. p. 5. cannot possibly think you meant to speak out and possibly you found some difficulty to add any thing to your Words which are these Force used to bring Men to consider Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince them that might determine their Sense For if you had said to convince them of Truth then the Magistrate must have made Laws and used Force to make Men search after Truth in general and that would not have served your turn If you had said to convince them of the Truth of the Magistrate's Religion that would too manifestly have put the Power in every Magistrate's hands which you tell us none but an Atheist will say If you had said to convince them of the Truth of your Religion that had looked too ridiculous to be owned though it were the thing you meant and therefore in this strait where nothing you could say would well sit your purpose you wisely choose to leave the Sense imperfect and name nothing they were to be convinced of but leave it to be collected by your Reader out of your Discourse rather than add three Words to make it good Grammar as well as intelligible Sense To my saying That if you pretend it must be Arguments to convince Men of the Truth it would in this Case do you little Service because the Mass in France is as much suppos'd the Truth as the Liturgy here You reply So that it seems that in your Opinion whatsoever is suppos'd the Truth is the Truth for otherwise this Reason of mine is none at all If in my Opinion the Supposition of Truth authorizes the Magistrate to use the same Means to bring Men to it as if it were true my Argument will hold good without taking all to be true which some Men suppose true According to this Answer of yours to suppose or believe his Religion the true is not enough to authorize the Mastrate to use Force he must know i. e. be infallibly certain that his is the True Religion We will for once suppose you our Magistrate with Force promoting our National Religion I will not ask you whether you know that all required of Conformists is necessary to Salvation But will suppose one of my Pagans asking you whether you know Christianity to be the True Religion If you say Yes he will ask you how you know it and no doubt but you will give the Answer whereby our Saviour proved his Mission John V. 36. that the Works which our Saviour did bear witness of him that the Father sent him The Miracles that Christ did are a Proof of his being sent from God and so his Religion the True
Religion But then you will be asked again Whether you know that he did those Miracles as well as those who saw them done If you answer Yes then it is plain that Miracles are not yet withdrawn but do still accompany the Christian Religion with all the Efficacy and Evidence that they had upon the Eye-witnesses of them and then upon your own Grounds there will be no necessity of the Magistrate's Assistance Miracles still supplying the want of it If you answer that Matter of fact done out of your sight at such a distance of Time and Place cannot be known to you as certainly as it was to the Eye-witnesses of it but that you upon very good Grounds firmly believe it you are then come to believing that yours is the True Religion and if that be sufficient to authorize you to use Force it will authorize any other Magistrate of any other Religion to use Force also For whoever believes any thing takes it to be true and as he thinks upon good Grounds and those often who believe on the weakest Grounds have the strongest Confidence and thus all Magistrates who believe their Religion to be true will be obliged to use Force to promote it as if it were the true To my saying that the Usefulness of Force your Way apply'd amounts to no more but this that it is not impossible but that it may be useful You reply I leave it to be judg'd by what has been said and I leave it to you your self to judg Only that you may not forget I shall here remind you in short of some of the Râ—…sons I have to say so 1. You grant that Force has no direct Eâ—…cacy to bring Men to imbrace the Truth 2. You distinguish the indirect and at a distance Vsefulness of your Force from that which is barely by accident by these two Marks viz. 1st That Punishment on Dissenters for Nonconformity is by those that use it intended to make Men consider and 2d That your moderate Punishments by Experience are found often successful and yours having neither of these Marks it must be concluded to be useful only by accident and such an Usefulness as I said One cannot deny to Auricular Confession doing of Penance going Pilgrimages to Saints and what not Yet our Church does not think fit to ufe them though it cannot be deny'd but they may have some of your indirect and at a distance Vsefulness that is perhaps may do some Seâ—…viceindirectly and by accident If the Intention of those that use them and the Success they will tell you they find in the use of them be a Proof of doing Service more than by accident that cannot be deny'd to them more than to Penalties your Way applied To which let me add that Niceness and Difficulty there is to hit that just Degree of Force which according to your Hypothesis must be neither so much as to do harm nor so little as to be ineffectual for you your self cannot determine it makes its Usefulness yet more uncertain and accidential And after all let its Efficacy to work upon Mens Minds be what it will great or little it being sure to be imploid ten or possibly an hundred times to bring Men to Error for once that it is imploid to bring Men to the Truth and where it chances to be imploid on the side of Truth it being liable to make an hundred or perhaps a thousand outward Conformists for one true and sincere Convert I leave it also to be judg'd what Usefulness it is like to be of To shew the Usefulness of Force your way apply'd I said Where the Law punish'd Dissenters without telling them it is to make them consider they may through Ignorance and Oversight neglect to do it Your Answer is But where the Law provides sufficient means of Instruction for all as well as Punishment for Dissentors it is so plain to all concern'd that the Punishment is intended to make them consider that you see no danger of Mens neglecting to do it through Ignorance and Oversight I hope you mean by consider so to consider as not only to imbrace in an outward Profession for then all you say is but a poor Fallacy for such a Considering amounts to no more but bare outward Conformity but so to consider study and examine Matters of Religion as really to imbrace what one is convinced to be the true with Faith and Obedience If it be so plain and easy to understand that a Law that speaks nothing of it should yet be intended to make Men consider search and study to sind out the Truth that must save them I wish you had shew'd us this Plainness For I confess many of all degrees that I have purposely asked about it did not ever see or so much as dream that the Act of Uniformity or against Conventicles or the Penalties in either of them were ever intended to make Men seriously study Religion and make it their business to find the Truth which must save them but barely to make Men conform But perhaps you have met with Handicrafts-Men and Country-Farmers Maid-Servants and Day-Labourers who have quicker Understandings and reason better about the Intention of the Law for these as well as others are concern'd If you have not 't is to be fear'd your saying it is so plain that you see no danger of Mens neglecting to do it through Ignorance or Oversight is more for its serving your purpose than from any Experience you have that it is so When you will enquire into this Matter you will I guess find the People so ignorant amidst that great Plainness you speak of that not one of twenty of any degree amongst Conformists or Nonconformists ever understood the Penalty of 12 d. a Sunday or any other of our Penal Laws against Nonconformity to be intended to set Men upon studying the True Religion and impartially examining what is necessary to Salvation And if you would come to Hudibras's Decision I believe he would have a good Wager of it who should give you a Guinea for each one who had thought so and receive but a Shilling for every one who had not Indeed you do not say it is plain every-where but only where the Law provides sufficient means of Instruction for all as well as Punishments for Dissenters From whence I think it will follow that that contributes nothing to make it plain or else that the Law has not provided sufficient means of Instruction in England where so very few find this to be so plain If by this sufficient Provision of means of Instruction for all you mean Persons maintain'd at the Publick Charge to preach and officiate in the publick Exercise of the National Religion I suppose you needed not this Restriction there being sew Places which have an establish'd National Religion where there is not such means of Instruction provided if you intend any other means of Instruction I know none the Law has provided in England
but the 39 Articles the Liturgy and the Scripture and how either of them by it self or these altogether with a National Clergy make it plain that the Penalties laid on Nonconformity are intended to make Men consider study and impartially examine Matters of Religion you would do well to shew For Magistrates usually know and therefore make their Laws accordingly that the People seldom carry either their Interpretation or Practice beyond what the express Letter of the Law requires of them You would do well also to shew that a sufficient provision of means of Instruction cannot but be understood to require an effectual Use of them which the Law that makes that provision says nothing of But on the contrary contents it self with something very short of it For Conformity or Coming to Church is at least as far from considering studying and impartially examining Matters of Religion so as to imbrace the Truth upon Conviction and with an obedient Heart as being present at a Discourse concerning Mathematicks and studying Mathematicks so as to become a knowing Mathematician are different one from the other People generally think they have done their Duties abundantly if they have been at Church whether they mind any thing done there or no this they call serving of God as if it were their whole Duty so backward are they to understand more though it be plain the Law of God expresly requires more But that they have fully satisfied the Law of the Land no body doubts nor is it easy to answer what was are ply'd to me on this occasion viz. If the Magistrate intended any thing more in those Laws but Consormity would he not have said it To which 〈◊〉 me add if the Magistrate intended Conformity as the fruit of Conviction would he not have taken some care to have them instructed before they conformed and examin'd when they did but 't is presumable their Ignorance Corruption and Lusts all drop off in the Church-porch and that they become perfectly good Christians as soon as they have taken 〈◊〉 Seats in the Church If there be any whom your Example or Writing hath inspir'd with Aâ—…uteness enough to sind out this I suspect the Vulgar who have scarce time and thought enough to make Inferences from the Law which scarce one or ten of them ever so much as reads or perhaps underâ—…ands when read are still and will be ignorant of it And those who have the Time and Abilities to argue about it will find reason to think that those Penalties were not intended to mâ—…ke Men examine the Doctrine and Ceremonies of Religion since those who should examine are prohibited by those very Laws to follow their own Judgments which is the very End and Use of Examination if they at all differ from the Religion establish'd by Law Nor can it appear so plain to all concern'd that the Punishment is intended to make them consider and examine when they see the Punishments you say are to make People consider spare those who consider and examine Matters of Religion as little as any of the most ignorant and careless Dissenters To my saying Some Dissenters may have consider'd already and then Force imploid upon them must needs be useless unless you can think it useful to punish a Man to make him do that which he has done already You reply No Man who rejects Truth necessary to his Salvation has consider'd already as he ought to consider The words as he ought are not as I take it in the Question and so your Answer is No Man who rejects the Truth necessary to his Salvation hath consider'd study'd or examin'd Matters of Religion But we will let that go and yet with that allowance your Answer will be nothing to the purpose unless you will dare to say that all Dissenters reject Truth necessary to Salvation For without that Supposition that all Dissenters reject Truth necessary to Salvation the Argument and Answer will stand thus It may be useless to punish all Dissenters to make them consider because some of them may have consider'd already To which the Answer is Yes some of them may have consider'd already but those who reject Truth necessary to their Salvation have not consider'd as they ought I said The greatest part of Mankind being not able to discern betwixt Truth and Falshood that depends upon long and many Proofs and remote Consequences nor haâ—…ing Ability enough to discover the false Grounds and resist the captious and fallacious Arguments of Learned Men versed in Controversies are so much more expos'd by the Force which is used to make them hearken to the Information and Instruction of Men appointed to it by the Magistrate or those of his Religion to be led into Falshood and Error than they are likely this way to be brought to imbrace the Truth which must save them by how much the National Religions of the World are beyond comparison more of them false or erroneous than such as have God for their Author and Truth for their Standard You reply If the first part of this be true then an infallible Guide and implicit Faith are more necessary than ever you thought them Whether you conclude from thence or no that then there will be a necessity of an infallible Guide and an implicit Faith 't is nevertheless true that the greatest part of Men are unable to discern as I said between Truth and Falshood depending upon long and many Proofs c. But whether that will make an infallible Guide necessary or no Imposition in Matters of Religion certainly will since there can be nothing more absur'd imaginable than that a Man should take upon him to impose on others in Matters of their Eternal Concernment without being or so much as pretending to be infallible For colour it with the name of Considering as much as you please as long as it is to make Men consider as they ought and considering as they ought is so to consider as to imbrace the using of Force to make Men consider and the using of Force to make them imbrace any Doctrine or Opinion is the same thing and to shew a difference betwixt imposing an Opinion and using Force to make it be imbrac'd would require such a piece of Subtilty as I heard lately from a Learned Man out of the Pulpit who told us that though two things he named were all one yet for Distinction's sake he would divide them Your Reason for the necessity of an infallible Guide is For if the greatest part of Mankind be not able to discern betwixt Truth and Falshood in Matters concerning their Salvation as I must mean if I speak to the purpose their Condition must needs be very hazardous if they have not some Guide or Judg to whose Determination and Direction they may securely resign themselves And therefore they must resign themselves to the Determination and Direction of the Civil Magistrate or be punish'd Here 't is like you will have something again
shall only advise you not to be so severe hereafter in your Censure of Mr. Reynolds as you are where you tell me that the famous Instance I give of the two Reynolds's is not of any moment to prove the contrary unless I can undertake that he that erred was as sincere in his Enquiry after that Truth as I suppose him able to examine and judg You will I suppose be more charitable another time when you have consider'd that neither Sincerity nor Freedom from Error even in the establish'd Doctrines of their own Church is the Privilege of those who join themselves in outward Profession to any National Church whatsoever And it is not impossible that one who has subscribed the 39 Articles may yet make it a Question Whether it may bâ—… truly said that God imputes the first Sin of Adam to his Posterity c. But we are apt to be so fond of our own Opinions and almost Infallibility that we will not allow them to be sincere who quit our Communion whilst at the same time we tell the World it is presumable that all who imbrace it do it sincerely and upon Conviction though we cannot but know many of them to be but loose inconsiderate and ignorant People This is all the reason you have when you speak of the Reynolds's to suspect one of the Brothers more than the other And to think that Mr. Chillingworth had not as much Sincerity when he quitted as when he return'd to the Church of England is a Partiality which nothing can justify without pretending to Infallibility To shew that you do not fancy your Force to be useful but that you judg so upon just and sufficient Grounds you tell us the strong probability of its Success is grounded upon the Consideration of humane Nature and the general Temper of Mankind apt to be â—…rought upon by the Method you speak of and upon the indisputable Attâ—…station of Experience The Consideration of humane Nature and the general Temper of Mankind will teach one this that Men are apt in things within their power to be wrought upon by Force and the more wrought upon the greater the Force or Punishments are So that where moderate Penalties will not work great Severities will Which Consideration of humane Nature if it be a just Ground to judg any Force useful will I fear necessarily carry you in your Judgment to Severities beyond the moderate Penalties so often mention'd in your System upon a strong Probability of the Success of greater punishment where less would not prevail But if to consider so as you require i. e. so as to imbrace and believe be not in their Power then no Force at all great or little is or can be useful You must therefore consider it which way you will either renounce all Force as useful or pull off your Mask and own all the Severities of the cruellest Perseentors The other Reason of your iudging Force to be useful you say is grounded on the indisputable Attâ—…station of Experience Pray tell us where you have this Attestation of Experience for your moderate which is the only useful Force Name the Country where True Religion or Sound Christianity has been Nationally receiv'd and establish'd by moderate Penal Laws that the observing Persons you appeal to may know where to imploy their Observation Tell us how long it was tâ—…ied and what was the Suâ—…cess of it And where there has been the Relaxation of such moderate Penal Laws the fruits whereof have continually bâ—…en Epicurism and Atheism Till you do this I fear that all the World will think there is a more indisputable Attestation of Experience for the Success of Dragooning and the Severities you condemn than of your moderate Method which we shall compare with the King of France's and see which is most successful in making Proselytes to Church-Conformity for yours as well as his reach no farther than that when you produce your Examples the consident Talk whereof is good to countâ—…nce a Cause though Experience there be none in the case But you appeal you say to all observing Persons Whether where-euer True Religion or Sound Christianity have been Nationally receiv'd and 〈◊〉 by moderate Penal Laws it has not always visibly lost ground by the Relaxation of those Laws True or False Religions Sound or Unsound Christianity where-ever establish'd into National Religions by Penal Laws always have lost and always will lose ground i. e. lose several of their Confoâ—…ming Professors upon the Relaxation of those Laws But this concerns not the True more than other Religions nor is any Prejudice to it but only shews that many are by the Penalties of the Law kept in the Communion of the National Religion who are not really convinced or perswaded of it and therefore as soon as Liberty is given they own the dislike they had many of them before and out of Perswasion Curiosity c. seek out and betâ—…ke themselves to some other Profession This need not startle the Magistrates of any Religion much less those of the True since they will be sure to retain those who more mind their secular Interest than the Truth of Religion who are every-where the greater number by the advantages of Countenance and Pâ—…ferment and if it be the True Religion they will retain those also who are in earnest of it by the stronger tie of Coâ—…science and Conviction You go on Whether Sects and Hercsies even the wildest and most absurd and even Epicurism and Atheism have not continually thereupon spread themselves and whether the very Life of Christianity has not sensibly decay'd as well as the Number of sound Prosessors of it been daily lessen'd upon it As to Atheism and Epicurism whether they more spread under Toleration or National Religions establish'd by moderate Penal Laws when you shew us the Countries where fair trial hath been made of both that we may compare them together we shall better be able to judg Epicurism and Atheism say you are found constantly to spread themselves upon the Relaxation of moderate Penal Laws We will suppose your History to be full of Instances of such Relaxations which you will in good time communicate to the World that wants this Assistance from your Observation But were this to be justified out of History yet would it not be any Argument against Toleration unless your History can furnish you with a new sort of Religion founded in Atheism However you do well to charge the spreading of Atheism upon Toleration in Matters of Religion as an Argument against those who deny Atheism which takes away all Religion to have any Right to Toleration at all But perhaps as is usual for those who think all the World should see with their Eyes and receive their Systems for unquestionable Verities Zeal for your own way makes you call all Atheism that agrees not with it That which makes me doubt of this are these following words Not to speak of what at this time
our Eyes cannot but see for fear of giving Offence Though I hope it will be none to any that have a just Concern for Truth and Piety to take notice of the Books and Pamphlets which now fly so thick about this Kingdom manifestly tending to the multiplying of Sects and Divisions and even to the promoting of Scepticism in Religion among us In which number you say you shall not much need my pardon if you reckon the First and Second Letter concerning Toleration Wherein by a broad Insinuation you impute the spreading of Atheism among us to the late Relaxation made in favour of Protestant Dissenters and yet all that you take notice of as a proof of this is the Books and Pamphlets which now fly so thick about this Kingdom manifestly tending to the multiplying of Sects and Divisions and even to the promoting of Scepticism in Religion amongst us and for instance you name the First and Second Letter concerning Toleration If one may guess at the others by these The Athcism and Scepticism you accuse them of will have but little more in it than an Opposition to your Hypothesis on which the whole business of Religion must so turn that whatever agrees not with your System must presently by Interpretation be concluded to tend to the promoting of Atheism or Scepticism in Religion For I challenge you to shew in either of those two Letters you mention one word tending to Epicurism Atheism or Scepticism in Religion But Sir against the next time you are to give an account of Books and Pamphlets tending to the promoting Scepticism in Religion amongst us I shall mind you of the third Letter concerning Toleration to be added to the Catalogue which asserting and building upon this that True Religion may be known by those who profess it to be the only True Religion does not a little towards betraying the Christian Religion to Scepticks For what greater advantage can be given them than to teach that one may know the True Religion thereby putting into their hands a Right to demand it to be demonstrated to them that the Christian Religion is true and bringing on the Professors of it a necessity of doing it I have heard it complain'd of as one great Artifice of Scepticks to require Demonstrations where they neither could be had nor were necessary But if the True Religion may be known to Men to be so a Sceptick may require and you cannot blame him if he does not receive your Religion upon the strongest probable Arguments without Demonstration And if one should demand of you Demonstration of the Truths of your Religion which I beseech you would you do either renounce your Assertion that it may be known to be true or else undertake to demonstrate it to him And as for the decay of the very Life and Spirit of Christianity and the spreading of Epicurism amongst us I ask what can more tend to the promoting of them than this Doctrine which is to be found in the same Letter viz. That it is presumable that those who conform do it upon Reason and Conviction When you can instance in any thing so much tending to the promoting of Scepticism in Religion and Epicurism in the first or second Letter concerning Toleration we shall have reason to think you have some ground for what you say As to Epicurism the spreading whereof you likewise impuâ—…e to the Relaxation of your moderate Penal Laws That so far as it is distinct from Atheism I think regards Mens Lives more than their Religions i. e. speculative Opinions in Religion and Ways of Worship which is that we mean by Religion as concern'd in Toleration And for the Toleration of corrupt Manners and the Debaucheries of Life neither our Author nor I do plead for it but say it is properly the Magistrate's Business by Punishments to restrain and suppress them I do not therefore blame your Zeal against Atheism and Epicurism but you discover a great Zeal against something else in charging them on Toleration when it is in the Magistrate's power to restrain and suppress them by more effectual Laws than those for Church-Conformity For there are those who will tell you that an outward Profession of the National Religion even where it is the True Religion is no more opposite to or inconsistent with Atheism or Epicurism than the owning of another Religion â—…specially any Christian Profession that differs from it And therefore you in vain impute Atheism or Epicurism to the Relaxation of Penal Laws that require no more than an outward Conformity to the National Church As to the Sâ—…cts and Un-christian Divisions for other Divisions there may be without prejudice to Christianity at whose Door they chiesly ought to be laid I have shew'd you elsewhere One thing I cannot but take notice of here that having named Sects Heresiâ—…s Epicurism Atheism and a Dâ—…ay of the Spirit and Life of Christianity as the fruits of 〈◊〉 for which you had the Attestation of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you add these words Not to speak of what our 〈◊〉 at this 〈◊〉 cannot but 〈◊〉 for fear of giving offence Whom is it I beseech you you are so afraid of offending if you should speak of the Epicurism Atheism and Dâ—…ay of the Spirit and Life of Christianity â—…gst 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But I see he that is so modeâ—… in one he will not take upon 〈◊〉 what they cannot know he calls moderate Peâ—…is or Force may yet in another paâ—…t of the same Letter by broâ—…d Insinnations use 〈◊〉 wherein 't is a hard matter to think Law-makâ—…rs and Govâ—…nners are not meant But whoever be meant it is at least advisable in Accusations that are easier suggested than made out to cast abroad the Slander in general and leave others to apply it for â—…ear those who are named and so justly offended with a false Imputation should be intitled to ask as in this case how it appears that Sects and Herosies have multiplied Epicurism and Atheism spread themselves and that the Life and Spirit of Christianity is decay'd more within these two years than it was before and that all this Mischief is owing to the late Relaxation of the Penal Laws against Protestant Dissenters You go on And if these have always been the Fruits of the Relaxation of moderate Penal Laws made for the preserving and advancing true Religion You think this Consideration alone is abundantly sufficient to shew the â—…fulness and Benefit of such Laws For if these Evils have constantly sprung from the Relaxation of those Laws 〈◊〉 evident they were prevented before by those Laws One would think by your saying always been the Fruits and constantly sprung that moderate Penal Laws for preserving the true Religion had been the constant Practice of all Christian Common-wealth and that Relaxations of them iâ—… favour of a free Toleration had frequently happen'd and that there were Examples both of the one and the other as common and known as of Prince that have persecuted
for Religion and learned Men who have imploy'd their Skill to make it good But till you shew us in what Ages or Countries your moderate Establishments were in Fashion and where they were again removed to make way for our Author's Toleration you to as little purpose talk of the Fruits of them as if you should talk of the Fruit of a Tree which no Body planted or was no where suffered to grow till one might see what Fruit came from it Having laid it down as one of the Conditions for a fair debate of this Controversy ` That it should be without supposing all along your Church in the right and your Religion the true I add these words Which can no more be allow'd to you IN THIS CASE whatever your Church or Religion be than it can be to a Papist or a Lutheran a Presbyterian or an Anabaptist nay no more to you than it can be allow'd to a Jew or Mahometan To which you reply No Sir Not whatever your Church or Religion be That seems somewhat hard And you think I might have given you some reason for what I say For certainly it is not so self-evident as to need no proof But you think it is no hard matter to guess at my Reason though I did not think fit expresty to own it For 't is obvious enough there can be no other Reason for this Assertion of mine but either the equal Truth or at least the equal Certainty or Vncertainty of all Religions For whoever considers my Assertion must see that to make it good I shall be obliged to maintain one of these two things Either 1. That no Religion is the true Religion in opposition to other Religions Which makes all Religions true or false and so either way indifferent Or 2. That though some one Religion be the true Religion yet no Man can have any more Reason than another Man of another Religion may have to believe his to be the true Religion Which makes all Religions equally certain or uncertain whether I please and so renders it vain and idle to enquire after the true Religion and only a piece of good luck if any Man be of it and such good luck as he can never know that he has till he come into the other World Whether of these two Principles I will own you know not But certainly one or other of them lies at the bottom with me and is the lurking Supposition upon which I build all that I say Certainly no Sir neither of these Reasons you have so ingenuously and friendly found out for me lies at the bottom but this That whatever Privilege or Power you claim upon your supposing yours to be the true Religion is equally due to another who supposes his to be the true Religion upon the same claim and therefore that is no more to be allow'd to you than to him For whose is really the true Religion yours or his being the matter in contest betwixt you your supposing can no more determine it on your side than his supposing on his unless you can think you have a right to judg in your own Cause You believe yours to be the true Religion so does he believe his you say you are certain of it so says he he is you think you have Arguments proper and sufficient to convince him if he would consider them the same thinks he of his If this claim which is equally on both sides be allow'd to either without any Proof 't is plain he iâ—… whose favour it is allow'd is allow'd to be Judg in his own Cause which no body can have a Right to be who is not at least infallible If you come to Arguments and Proofs which you must do befoâ—…e it can be determin'd whose is the True Religion 't is plain your Supposition is not allow'd In our present case in using Punishments in Religion your supposing yours to be the True Religion gives you or your Magistrate no more Advantage over a Papist Presbyterian or Mahometan or more Reason to punish either of them for his Religion than the same Supposition in a Papist Presbyterian or Mahometan gives any of them or a Magistrate of their Religion advantage over you or reason to punish you for your Religion and therefore this Supposition to any purpose or privilege of using of Force is no more to be allow'd to you than to any one of any other Religion This the words IN THIS CASE which I there used would have satisfied any other to have been my meaning But whether your Charity made you not to take notice of them or the Joy of such an Advantage as this not to understand them this is certain you were resolved not to lose the Opportunity such a place as this afforded you of shewing your Gift in commenting and guessing shrewdly at a Man's Reasons when he does not think fit expresly to own them himself I must own you have a very lucky hand at it and as you do it here upon the same ground so it is just with the same Success as you in another place have exercis'd your Logick on my saying something to the same purpose as I do here But Sir if you will add but one more to your plentiful stock of Distinctions and observe the difference there is between the ground of any one's supposing his Religion is true and the Privilege he may pretend to by supposing it true you will never stumble aâ—… this again but you will find that though upon the former of these Accounts Men of all Religions cannot be equally allow'd to suppose their Religions true yet in reference to the Latter the Supposition may and ought to be allow'd or deny'd equally to all Men. And the reason of it is plain viz. because the Assurance wherewith one Man supposes his Religion to be true being no more an Argument of its Truth to another than vice versâ neither of them can claim by the Assurance wherewith he supposes his Religion the True any Prerogative or Power over the other which the other has not by the same Title an equal Claim to over him If this will not serve to spare you the pains another time of any more such Reasonings as we have twice had on this Subject I think I shall be forced to send you to my Mahometans or Pagans and I doubt whether I am not less civil to your Parts than I should be that I do not send you to them now You go on and say But as uâ—…reasonable as this Condition is you see no need you have to decline it nor any occasion I had to impose it upon you For certainly the making what I call your new Method consâ—…ltent and practicable does no way oblige you to suppose all along your Religion the True as I imagine And as I imagine it does For without that Supposition I would fain have you shew me how it is in any one Country practicable to punish Men to bâ—…ing them to
the True Religion For if you will argue for Force as necessary to bring Men to the True Religion without supposing yours to be it you will find your self under some such difficulty as this that then it must be first determin'd and you will require it should be which is the True Religion before any one can have a Right to use Force to bring Men to it which if every one did not determine for himself by supposing his own the True no body I think will desire Toleration any longer than till that be settled You go on No Sir it is enough for that purpose that there is one True Religion and but one Suppose not the National Religion establishâ—…d by Law in England to be that and then even upon your Principles of its being useful and that the Magistrate has a Commission to use Force for the promoting the True Religion prove if you please that the Magistrato has a Power to use Force to bring Men to the National Religion in England For then you must prove the National Religion as establish'd by Law in England to be that One True Religion and so the True Religion that he rejects the True Religion who dissents from any part of it and so rejecting the True Religion cannot be saved But of this more in another place Your other two Suppositions which you join to the foregoing are That that Religion may be known by those who 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be the only True Religion and may also be manifested to be such by them to others so far at least as to oblige them to receive it and to leave them without Excuse if they do not These you say are Suppositions enough for the making your Mâ—…od consistent and praâ—…ioable They are 〈◊〉 more than enough for you upon them to prove any National Religion in the World the only True Religion And till you have proved for you profess here to have quitted the Supposition of any one's being true as necessary to your Hypothesis some National Religion to be that only True Religion I would gladly know how it is any where practicable to use Force to bring Men to the True Religion You suppose there is one True Religion and but one In this we are both agreed And from hence I think it will follow since whoever is of this True Religion shall be saved and without being of it no Man shall be saved that upon your second and third Supposition it will be hard to shew any National Religion to be this only True Religion For who is it will say he knows or that it is knowable that any National Religion wherein must be comprehended all that by the Penal Laws he is requird to imbrace is that only True Religion which if Men reject they shall and which if they imbrace they shall not miss Salvation Or can you undertake that any National Religion in the World can be manifested to be such i. e. in short to contain all things necessary to Salvation and nothing but what is so For that and that alone is the One only True Religion without which no body can be saved and which is enough for the Salvation of every one who imbraces it And therefore whatever is less or more than this is not the One only True Religion or that which there is a necessity for their Salvation Men should be forced to imbrace I do not hereby deny that there is any National Religion which contains all that is necessary to Salvation for so doth the Romish Religion which is not for all that so much as a True Religion Nor do I deny that there are National Religions that contain all things necessary to Salvation and nothing inconsistent with it and so may be call'd True Religions But since they all of them joyn with what is necessary to Salvation a great deal that is not so and make that as necessary to Communion as what is necessary to Salvation not suffering any one to be of their Communion without taking all together nor to live amongst them free from Punishment out of their Communion will you affirm that any of the National Religions of the World which are imposed by Penal Laws and to which Men are driven with Force can be said to be that One only True Religion which if Men imbrace they shall be saved and which if they imbrace not they shall be damn'd And therefore your two Suppositions True or False are not enough to make it practicable upon your Principles of necessity to use Force upon Dissenters from the National Religion though it contain in it nothing but Truth unless that which is requir'd to Communion be all necessary to Salvation For whatever is not necessary to Salvation there is no necessity any one should imbrace So that whenever you speak of the True Religion to make it to your purpose you must speak only of what is necessary to Salvation unless you will say that in order to the Salvation of Mens Souls it is necessary to use Force to bring them to imbrace something that is not necessary to their Salvation I think that neither you nor any body else will affirm that it is necessary to use Force to bring Men to receive all the Truths of the Christian Religion though they are Truths God has thought sit to reveal For then by your own Rule you who profefs the Christian Religion must know them all and must be able to manifest them to others for it is on that here you ground the Necessity and Reasonableness of Penalties used to bring Men to imbrace the Truth But I suspect 't is the good word Religion as in other places other words has misled you whilst you content your self with good Sounds and some confused Notions that usually accompany them without annexing to them any precise determin'd Signification To convince you that 't is not without ground I say this I shall desire you but to set down what you mean here by True Religion that we may know what in your Sense is and what is not contain'd in it Would you but do thus fairly and define your Words or use them in one constant settled Sense I think the Controversy between you and me would be at an end without any farther trouble Having shewed of what advantage they are like to be to you for the making your Method practicable in the next place let us consider your Suppositions themselves As to the first There is one true Religion and but one we are argeed But what you say in the next place That that one true Religion may be known by those who profess it will need a little Examination As first it will be necessary to enquire what you mean by known whether you mean by it Knowledg properly so call'd as contra-distinguish'd to Belief or only the assurance of a sirm Belief If the lâ—…tter I leave you your Supposition to make your use of it only with this Desire that to avoid Mistakes when
Fourth Century had actually Miracles done before them to work upon them And all those who were not Eye-witnesses of Miracles done in their Presence 't is plain had no other Miracles than we have that is upon report and 't is probable not so many nor so well attested as we have The greatest part then of those who were converted at least in some of those Ages before Christianity was supported by the Laws of the Empire I think you must allow were wrought upon by bare preaching and such Miracles as we still have Miracles at a distance related Miracles In others and those the greater number Prejudice was not 〈◊〉 moved that they were prevailed on to consider to consider as they ought i. e. in your Language to consider so as to imbrace If they had not so considered in our Days what according to your Scheme must have been done to them that did not consider as they ought Force must have been applied to them what therefore in the Primitive Church was to be done to them Why your 〈◊〉 Miracles actual Miracles such as you deny the Christian Religion to be still accompanied with must have been doncin their presence to work upon them Will you say this was 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 a new Church-History for us and out do those Writers who have been thought pretty liberal of Miracles If you do not you must consess Miracles supplied not the place of Force and so let fall all your fine Contrivance about the necessity either of Force or Miracles and perhaps you will think it at last a more becoming Modesty not to set the Divine Power and Providonce on work by Rules and for the ends of your Hypothesis without having any thing in Authentick History much less in Divine and unerring Revelation to justify you But Force and Power deserve something more than ordinary and allowable Arts or Arguments to get and keep them Si violandum sit jus regnandi causa violandum cst If the Testimony of Miracles having been done wore sufficient to make the Gospel prevail without Force on those who were not Eye-Witnesses of them we have that still and so upon that account need not Force to supply the want of it But if Truth must have either the Law of the Country or actual Miracles to support it what became of it after the Reign of Constantine the Great under all those Emperors that were erroneous or Heretical It supported it self in Piedmont and France and Turky many Ages without Force or Miracles And it spread it self in divers Nations and Kingdoms of the North and East without any Force or other Miracles than those that were done many Ages before So that I think you will upon second thoughts not deny but that the true Religion is able to prevail now as it did at first and has done since in many places without assistance from the Powers in being by its own Beauty Force and Reasonableness whereof well-attested Miraclesis a part But the account you give us of Miracles will deserve to be a little examined we have it in these Words Considering that those extraordinary Means were not withdrawn till by their help Christianity had prcvail'd to be received for the Religion of the Empire and to be supported and incouraged by the Laws of it you cannot you say but think it highly probable if we may be allow'd to guess at the Counsels of infinite Wisdom that God was pleased to continue them till then not so much for any necessity there was of them all that while for the evincing the Truth of the Christian Religion as to supply the want of the Magistrate's Assistance Miracles then if what you say be true were continued till Christianity was received for the Religion of the Empire not so much to evince the Truth of the Christian Religion as to supply the want of the Magistrate's Assistance But in this the Leanned Author whose Testimony you quote fâ—…ils you For the tells you that the chief use of Miracles in the Church after the Truth of the Christian Religion had been sufficiently consirmed by them in the World was to oppose the salse and pretended Miracles of Hereticks and Heathens and answerable hereunto Miracles ceased and returned again as such oppositions made them more or less necessary Accordingly Miracles which before had abated in Trajan's and Hadrian's time which was in the latter end of the First or beginning of the Second Century did again revive to confound the Magical Delusions of the Hereticks of that time And in the third Century the Hereticks using no such Tricks and the Faith being consirm'd they by dearees ceased of which there then he says could be no imaginable necissity His Words are Et quidemâ—…o minus necessaria sunt pro veterum Principiis recentiora illa Miracula quod Haereticos quos appellant nullos adversarios habeant qui contraria illis dogmata astruant Miraculis Sic enim vidimus apud veteres dum nulli Ecclesiam exercerent Adversarii seu Haretici seu Gentiles aut satis illi praeteritis Miraculis 〈◊〉 an t nullas ipsi praestigias opponerent quae veris essent Miraculis oppugnandae 〈◊〉 deinde paulatim esse mirificam illam spiritus virtutem Ortos sub Trajano Hadrianoque Haereticos 〈◊〉 praestigiis Magicis fuisse usos proinde Miraculorum verorum in Ecclesia usum una REVIXISSE Ne dicam praestigiatores etiam Gentiles eodem illo seculo sane frequentissimos Apuleium in Africa in Asia Alexandrum Pseudomantim multosque alios quorum meminit Aristides Tertio seculo orto Haeretici Herniogenes Praxeas Noetus Theodotus Sabellius Novatianus Artemas Samosatenus nulla 〈◊〉 videtur Miracula ipsi venditabant nullis propterea Miraculis oppugnandi Inde vidimus apud ipsos etiam Catholicos sensim defecisse Miracula Et quidem Haereticis nulla in contrarium Miracula ostentantibus quae tandem singi potest miraculorum necessitas traditam ab initio fidem Miraculisque adeo jamdudum confirmatam praedicantibus Nulla certe prorsus pro Primaevo Miraculorum exemplo Nulla denique consciis vere Primaevam esse fidem quam novis Miraculis suscipiunt confirmandam The History therefore you have from him of Miracles serves for his Hypothesis but not at all for yours For if they were continued to supply the want of Force which was to deal with the Corruption of depraved Humane Nature that being without any great variation in the World constantly the same there could be no reason why they should abate and fail and then return and revive again So that there being then as you suppose no necessity of Miracles for any other end but to supply the want of the Magistrate's Assistance they must to sute that end be constant and regularly the same as you would have Force to be which is steadily and uninterruptedly to be applied as a constantly necessary Remedy to the corrupt Nature of Mankind If you allow the Learned Dodwell's Reasons for the continuation
24. Miracles say you supplied the want of Force till by their help Christianity had prevailed to be received for the Religion of the Empire Not that the Magistrates had not as much Commission then from the Law of Nature to use Force for promoting the true Religion as since But because the Magistrates then not being of the true Religion did not afford it the assistance of their Political Power If this be so and there be a necessity either of Force or Miracles will there not be the same Reason for 〈◊〉 ever since even to this Day and so on to the end of the World in all those Countries where the Magistrate is not of the true Religion Unless as you urge it you will say what without Impiety cannot be said that the wise and benign Disposer of all things has not furnished Mankind with competent means for the promoting his own Honour in the World and the good of Souls But to put an end to your pretence to Miracles as supplying the place of Force Let me ask you whether since the withdrawing of Miracles your moderate degree of Force has been made use of for the support of the Christian Religion if not then Miracles were not made use of to supply the want of Force unless it were for the supply of such Force as Christianity never had which is for the supply of just no Force at all or else for the supply of the Severities which have been in use amongst Christians which is worse than none at all Force you say is necessary what Force not Eire and Sword not loss of Eâ—…ates not maiming with Corporal Punishments not stâ—…ving and tormenting in 〈◊〉 Prisons those you condemn Not Compulsion these Severities you say are apter to hinder than promote the true Religion but moderate lower Penalties tolerable Inconveniencies such as should a little disturb and disease Men. This assistance not being to be had from the Magistrates in the First Ages of Christianity Miracles say you were continued till Christianity became the Religion of the Empire not so much for any necessity there was of them all that while for the evâ—…ncing the Truth of the Christian Râ—…ligion as to supply the want of the Magistrate's Assistance For the true Religion not being able to support it self by its own Light and Strength without the assistance either of Miracles or of Authority there was a necessity of the one or the other and therefore whilst the Powers in being assisted not with necessary Force Miracles supplied that want Miracles then being to supply necessary Force and necessary Force being only lower moderate Penalties some Inconveniâ—…ncies such as only disturb and disease a little If you cannot shew that in all Countries where the Magistrates have been Christian they have assisted with such Force 't is plain tâ—…at Miracles supplied not the want of necessary Force unless to supply the want of your necessary Force for a time were to supply the want of an Assistance which true Religion had not upon the withdrawing of Miracles and I think I may say was never thought on by any Authority in any Age or Country till you now above 1300 Years after made this happy discovery Nay Sir since the true Religion as you tell us cannot prevail or subsist without Miracles or Authority i. e. your moderate Force it must necessarily follow that the Christian Religion has in all Ages and Countries been accompanied either with actual Miracles or such Force which whether it be so or no I leave you and all sober Men to consider When you can shew that it has been so we shall have reason to be satisâ—… with your bold Assertion That the Christian Religion as delivered in the New Testament cannot prevail by its own Light and Strength without the assistance of your moderate Penalties or of actual Miracles accompanying it But if ever since the withdrawing of Miracles in all Christian Countries where Force has been thought necessary by the Magistrate to support the National or as every where it is called the true Religion those Severities have been made use of which you for a good Reason condemn as apter to hinder than promote the true Religion 't is plain that Miracles supplied the want of such an Assistance from the Magistrate as was apter to binder than promote the true Religion And your substituting of Miracles to supply the want of moderate Force will shew nothing for your Cause but the zeal of a Man so sond of Force that he will without any warrant from Scripture enter into the Counsels of the Almighty and without authority from History talk of Miracles and Political Anministrations as may best sute his System To my saying a Religion that is from God wants not the assistance of Humane Authority to make it prevail you answer This is not simply nor always true Indeed when God takes the matter wholly into his own Hands as he does at his first revealing any Religion there can be no need of any assistance of Humane Authority but when God has once sufficiently settled his Religion in the World so that if Men from thenceforth will do what â—…ey may and ought in their several Capacities to preserve and propagate it it may 〈◊〉 and prevail without that extraordinary Assistance from him which was necessary for its first establishment By this Rule of yours how long was there need of Miracles to make Christianity subsist and prevail If you will keep to it you will find there was no need of Miracles after the promulgation of the Gospel by Christ and his Apostles for I ask you was it not then so sufficiently settled in the World that if Men would from thenceforth have done what they might and ought in their several Capacities it would have subsisted and prevailed without that extraordinary assistance of Miracles unless you will on this occasion retract what you say in other places viz. that it is a Fault not to receive the true Religion where sufficient evidence is offered to convince Men that it is so If then from the times of the Apostles the Christian Religion has had sufficient evidence that it is the true Religion and Men did their Duty i. e. receive it it would certainly have subsisted and prevailed even from the Apostles Times without that extraordinary Assistance and then Miracles after that were not necessary But perhaps you will say that by Men in their several Capacities you mean the Magistrates A pretty way of speaking proper to you alone But even in that Sense it will not serve your turn For then there will be need of Miracles not only in the time you propose but in all times after For if the Magistrate who is as much subject as other Men to that Corruption of Humane Nature by which you tell us False Religions prevall against the True should not do what he may and ought so as to be of the true Religion as 't is the odds he will not what then
inconsiâ—…tent incredible Legend They will not practise the Rules of Religion and therefore they cannot believe the Doctrines of it The ingenious Author will pardon me the change of one word which I doubt not but 〈◊〉 his Opinion though it did not so well that Argument he was then on You grant the true Religion has always Light and Strength to prevail 〈◊〉 Religions have neither Take away the satisfaction of Men Lusts and which then I pray hath the advantage Will Men against the Light of their Reason do violence to their Understandings and for sake Truth and Salvation too gratis You tell us here No Religion but the true requires of Men the difficult Task of mortifying their Lust s. This being granted you what Service will this do you to prove a necessity of Force to punish all Disseuters in England Do none of their Religions require the mortisying of Lusts as well as yours And now let us consider your Instance whereon you build so much that we hear of it over and over again For you tell us Idolatry 〈◊〉 but yet not by the help of Force as has been sufficiently 〈◊〉 And again That Truth left to shift for her self will not 〈◊〉 well enough has been sufficiently 〈◊〉 What you have done to shew this is to be seen where you tell us Within how few Generations after the â—…ood the Worship of False Gods prevail'd against the Religion which Noah professed and taught his Children which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the true Religion almost to the â—…tter exclusion of it though that at 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was the only Religion in the World without any Aid from â—…orce or the Assistance of the Powers in being for any thing we find in the History of those Times as we may reasonably believe considering that it found an entrance into the World and entertainment in it when it could have no such Aid or Assistance Of which besides the Corruption of Humane Nature you suppose there can no other Cause be assigned or none more probable than this that the Powers then in being did not do what they might and ought to have done towards the preventing or checking that horrible Apostacy Here you tell us that the Worship of False Gods within a very few Generations after the Flood prevail'd against the true Religion almost to the â—…tter exclusion of it This you say indeed but without any Proofs and unless that be shewing you have not as you pretend any way shewn it Out of what Records I beseech you have youâ—… that the true Religion was almost wholly extirpated out of the Woâ—…ld within a few Generations after the Flood The Scripture the largest History we have of those Times says 〈◊〉 of it nor does as I remember mention any as guilty of Idolatry within 2 or 300 Years after the Flood In Canaan it self I do not think that you can out of any credible History 〈◊〉 tâ—…at thâ—…re was any Idolatry within ten or twelve Generations after Noah much less that it had so overspread the World and extirpated the true Religion out of that part of it where the Scene lay of those Actions recorded in the History of the Bible In Abraham's 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 who was King of 〈◊〉 was also the Priest of the most High God We read that God with an immediate Hand punish'd miraculously first 〈◊〉 at the Confusion of Babel and afterward Sodom and four other Cities but in neither of these Places is there any the leâ—…st mention of Idolatry by which they provoked God and drew down Vengeance on themselves So that truly you have shewn nothing at all and what the Scripture shews is against you For besides that it is plain bâ—… Melchisedeck the King of Saleâ—… and Priest of the most High God to whom Abraham paid Tithes that all the Land of Canaan was not yet overspread with Idolatry though afterwards in the Time of 〈◊〉 by the forsciture was therefore made of it to the Israelites one may have reason to suspect it were more desiled with it than any part of the World Besides Salem I say he that reads the Story of Abimelech will have reason to think that he also and his Kingdom though Philistines were not then infected with Idolatry You think they and almost all Mankind were Idolaters but you may be mistaken and that which may serve to shew it is the Example of Elijah the Prophet who was at least as infallible a Guesser as you and was as well instructed in the State and History of his own Country and Time as you can be in the State of the whole World 3 or 4000 Years ago Elijah thought that Idolatry had wholly extirpated the true Religion out of Israel and complains thus to God The Children of Israel have for saken thy Covenant thrown down thy Altars and stain thy Prophets with the Sword and I even I alone am left and they seek my Life to take it away And he is so fully perswaded of it that he repeats it again and yet God tells him that he had there yet 7000 Knees that had not bowed to Baal 7000 that were not Idolaters though this was in the Reign of Ahab a King zealous for Idolatry and in a Kingdom set up in an Idolatrous Worship which had continued the National Religion established and promoted by the continued Succession of several Idolatrous Princes And though the National Religions soon after the Flood were false which you are far enough from proving how does it thence follow that the true Religion was near extirpated which it must needs quite have been before St. Peter's time if there were so great reason to fear as you tell us That the true Religion without the assistance of Force would in a much shorter time than any one that does not well consider the matter would imagine be most effectually extirpated throughout the World For above 2000 Years after Noah's time St. Peter tells us That in every Nation he that search God and worketh 〈◊〉 is accepted by him By which Words and by the occaâ—…ion on which they were spoken it is manifest that in Countries where for 2000 Years together no Force had been used for the support of Noah's true Religion it was not yet wholly 〈◊〉 But that you may not think it was so near that there was but one left only Cornelius if you will look into Acts XVII 4. you will find a great Multitude of them at Thessalonica And of the devoâ—…t Greeks a great Multitude believed and consorted with Paul and Silas And again more of them in Aâ—…ens a City wholly given to Idolâ—…try For that those 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which we translate devout and whereof many are mentioned in the Acts were Genâ—…iles who worshipped the true God and kept the Precepts of Noâ—… Mr. Mede has abundantly proved So that what â—…ever you â—…ho have well considered the matter may imagine of the shortness of time wherein Noah's Religion would be effectually extirpated
ready was the Ambition Vanity or Superstition of Princes to introduce their Predecessors into the Divine Worship of the People to secure to themselves the greater Veneration from their Subjects as descended from the Gods or to erect such a Worship and such a Priesthood as might awe the blinded and seduced People into that Obedience they desired Thus Ham by the Authority of his Successors the Rulers of Egypt is first brought for the Honour of his Name and Memory into their Temples and never left till he is erected into a God and made Jupiter Hammon c. which Fashion took afterwards with the Princes of other Countries Was not the great God of the Eastern Nations Baal or Jupiter Belâ—… one of the first Kings of Assyria And which I pray is the more likely that Courts by their Instruments the Priests should thus advance the Honour of Kings amongst the People for the ends of Ambition and Power or the People find out these resined Ways of doing it and introduce them into Courts for the enslaving themselves What Idolatry does your History tell you of among the Greeks before Phoroncus and Danaus Kings of the Argives and Cecrops and Theseus Kings of 〈◊〉 and Cadmus King of Thebes introduced it An Art of Rule 't is probable they borrowed from the Egyptians So that if you had not vouch'd the Silence of History without consulting it you would possibly have found that in the first Ages Princes by their Influence and Aid by the Help and Artisice of the Priests they imploy'd their Fables of their Gods their Mysteries and Oracles and all the Assistance they could give it by their Authority did so much against the Truth before direct Force was grown into fashion and appear'd openly that there would be little reason of putting the Guard and Propagation of the True Religion into their hands now and arming them with Force to promote it That this was the Original of Idolatry in the World and that it was borrowed by other Magistrates from the Egyptians is farther evident in that this Worship was setled in Egypt and grown the National Religion there before the Gods of Greece and several other Idolatrous Countries were boâ—… For though they took their Pattern of Deifying their deceased Princes from the Egyptians and kept as near as they could to the Number and Genealogies of the Egyptian Gods yet they took the Names still of some great Men of their own which they accommodated to the Mythology of the Egyptians Thus by the assistance of the Powers in being Idolatry entred into the World after the Flood Whereof if there were not so clear Footsteps in History why yet should you not imagine Princes and Magistrates ingaged in False Religions as ready to imploy their Power for the maintaining and promoting their False Religions in those days as we find them now And therefore what you say in the next Words of the entrance of Idolatry into the World and the it sound in it will not pass for so very evident without Proof though you tell us never so considently that you suppose besides the Corruption of humane Nature there can no other Carse be assigned of it or none more probable than this That the Powers then in being did not what they might and ought to have done 〈◊〉 e. if you mean it to your purpose use Force your way to make Men consider or to impose Creeds and Ways of Worship towards the 〈◊〉 or checking that horrible Apostacy I grant that the entranee and growth of Idolatry might be owing to the Negligence of the Powers in being in that they did not do what they might and ought to have done in using their Authority to suppress the Enormities of Mens Manners and correct the Irregularity of their Lives But this was not all the Assistance they gave to that horrible Apostacy They were as for as History gives us any light the Promoters of it and Leaders in it and did what they ought not to have done by setting up False Religions and using their Authority to establish them to serve their corrupt and ambitious Designs National Religions establish'd by Authority and inforced by the Powers in being we hear of every where as far back as we have any account of the rise and growth of the Religions of the World Shew me any place within those few Generations wherein you say the 〈◊〉 prevail'd after the Flood where the Magistrates being of the True Religion the Subjects by the Liberty of a Toleration were lead into False Religions and then you will produce something against Liberty of Consâ—…ience But to talk of that great Apostacy as wholly owing to Toleration when you cannot produce one Instance of Toleration then in the World is to say what you please That the majority of Mankind were then and always have been by the Corruption and Pravity of humane Nature led away and kept from imbracing the True Religion is past doubt But whether this be owing to Toleration in Matters of Religion is the Question David describes an horrible Corruption and Apostacy in his time so as to say There is none that doth good no not one and yet I do not think you will say a Toleration then in that Kingdom was the cause of it If the greatest part cannot be ill without a Toleration I am afraid you must be fain to find out a Toleration in every Country and in all Ages of the World For I think it is true of all Times and Places that the Broad way that leadeth to Destruction has had most Travellers I would be glad to know where it was that Force your way apply'd i. e. with Punishments only upon Nonconformists ever prevail'd to bring the greater number into the Narrow-way that leads unto Life which our Saviour tells us there are sew that sind The Corrupâ—…on of Humane Nature you say opposes the True Religion I grant it you There was also say you an horrible Apostacy after the Flood let this also be granted you and yet from hence it will not follow that the True Religion cannot subsist and prevail in the World without the assistance of Force your way apply'd till you have shewn that the False Religions which were the Inventions of Men grew up under Toleration and not by the Encouragement and Assistance of the Powers in being How near soever therefore the True Religion was to be extinguish'd within a few Generations after the Flood which whether more in danger then than in most Ages since is more than you can shew This will be still the Question Whether the Liberty of Toleration or the Authority of the Powers in being contributed most to it And whether there can be no other nor more probable Cause assigned than the want of Force your way apply'd I shall leave the Reader to judg This I am sure whatever Causes any one else shall assign are as well proved as yours if they offer them only as their Conjectures Not but
that I know To this you who have confessed the Scripture not to have given the Magistrate this Commission must say that it is plain enough in the Commission that he has from the Law of Nature and so needed not any Revelation to instruct the Magistrate in the Right he has to use Force I confess the Magistrates have used Force in matters of Religion and have been as considently and constantly put upon it by their Priests as if they had as clear a Commission from Heaven as St. Peter had to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles But yet 't is plain notwithstanding that Commission from the Law of Nature there needs some farther instruction from Revelation since it does not appear that they have found out the right use of Force such as the true Religion requires for its Preservation and though you have after several thousands of Years at last discovered it yet it is very 〈◊〉 you not being able to tell if a Law were now to be made against those who have not consider'd as they ought what are those moderate Penalties which are to be imployed against them though yet without that all the rest signifies nothing But however doubtful you are in this I am glad to find you so direct in putting Mens rejecting the 〈◊〉 Religion upon the difficulty they have to 〈◊〉 their 〈◊〉 which the true Religion requires of them and I desire you to remember it in other places where I have occasion to mind you of it To conclude That we may see the great advantage your Cause will receive from that Instance you so much rely on of the Apostacy after the Flood I shall oppose another to it You say That Idolatry prevail'd in the World in a few Generations almost to the â—…tter exclusion of the true Religion without any Aid from Force or Assistance of the Powers in being by reason of Toleration And therefore you think there is great reason to fear that the trac Religion would by Toleration quickly be most effectually extirpated thoughout the World And I say that after Christianity was received for the Religion of the Empire and whilst Political Laws and Force interposed in it an horrible Apostacy prevail'd 〈◊〉 most the â—…tter exclusion of the true Religion and a general introducing of Idolatry And therefore I think there is great reason to fear more harm than good from the use of Force in Religion This I think as good an Argument against as yours for Force and something better since what you build on is only presum'd by you not proved from History whereas the matter of Fact here is well known nor will you deny it when you consider the State of Religion in Christendom under the assistance of that Force which you tell us succeeded and supplied the place of withdrawn Miracles which in your Opinion are so necessary in the absence of Force that you make that the reason of their continuance and tell us they were continued â—…ill Force could be had not so much for evincing the Truth of Christian Religion as to supply the want of the Magistrate's Assistance So that when ever Force fail'd there according to your Hypothesis are Miracles to supply its want for without one of them the True Religion if we may believe you will soon be â—…terly extirpated and what Force in the absence of Miracles produced in Christendoin several Ages before the Reformation is so well known that it will be hard to find what Service your way of arguing will do any but the Romish Religion But to take your Argument in its full Latitude you say but you say it without Book that there was once a Toleration in the World to the almost utter Extirpation of the true Religion and I say to you that as far as Records authorize either Opinion we may say Force has been always used in matters of Religion to the great prejudice of the true Religion and the Professors of it And there not being an Age wherein you can shew me upon a fair Trial of an establish'd National Toleration that the true Religion was extirpated or indangered so much as you pretend by it Whereas there is no Age whereof we have sufficient History to judg of this matter wherein it will not be easy to find that the true Religion and its Followers suffered by Force You will in vain endeavour by Instances to prove the ill effects or uselesness of Toleration such as the Author proposed which I challenge you to shew me was ever yet set up in the World or that the true Religion sufferd by it and 't is to the want of it the Restraints and Disadvantages the true Religion has laboured under and it s so little spreading in the World will justly be imputed until from better Experiments you have something to say against it Our Saviour has promised that he will build his Church on this fundamental Truth That he is Christ the Son of God so that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it And this I believe though you tell us the True Religion is not able to subsist without the assistance of Force when Miracles cease I do not remember that our Saviour any where promises any other assistance but that of his Spirit or gives his little Flock any Encouragement to expect much Countenance or Help from the great Men of the World or the Coercive Power of the Magistrates nor any where authorizes them to use it for the support of his Church Not many wise Men after the Flesh not many mighty not many noble is the Stile of the Gospel and I believe will be found to belong to all Ages of the Church Militant past and to come as well as to the first For God as St. Paul tells us has chosen the foolish things of the World to confound the wise and the weak things of the World to confound the mighty and this not only till Miracles ceased but ever since To be hated for Christ's Name sake and by much Tribulation to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven has been the general and constant Lot of the People of God as well as it seems to be the current Strain of the New Testament which promises nothing of secular Power or Greatness says nothing of Kings being nursing Fathers or Queens nursing Mothers which Prophecy whatever meaning it have 't is like our Saviour would not have omitted to support his Church with some Hopes and Assurance of such Assistance if it were to have any Accomplishment before his second Coming when Israel shall come in again and with the Gentiles make up the Fulness of his glorious Kingdom But the Tenor of the New Testament is All that will live Godly in Jesus Christ shall suffer Persecution 2 Tim. III. In your Argument consider'd you tell us That no Man can fail of finding the way of Salvation that seeks it as he ought In my answer I take notice to you that the places
of Scripture you cite to prove it point out this way of seeking as we ought to be a good Life as particularly that of St. John If any one will do his Will he shall know of the Doctrine whether it be of God upon which I use these Words So that these places if they prove what you cite them for That no Man can fail of finding the way of Salvation who seeks it as the ought they do also prove that a good Life is the only way to seek as we ought and that therefore the Magistrates if they would put Men upon seeking the way of Salvation as they ought should by their Laws and Penalties force them to a good Life a good Conversation being the surest and readiest way to a right Understanding And that if Magistrates will severely and impartially set themselves against Vice in whomsoever it is found True Religion will be spread wider than ever hitherto it has been by the Imposition of Creeds and Ceremonies To this you reply Whether the Magistrates setting themselves severely and impartially against what you suppose I call Vice or the Imposition of sound Creeds and decent Ceremonies does more conduce to the spreading the True Religion and rendring it fruitful in the Lives of its Professors we need not examine you confess you think both together do best and this you think is as much as needs be 〈◊〉 to that Paragraph If it had been put to you Whether a good Living or a good Prebend would more conduce to the enlarging your Fortune I think it would be allow'd you as no improper or unlikely Answer what you say here I think both together would do best but here the case is otherwise your Thinking determines not the Point and other People of equal Authority may and I will answer for it do think otherwise but because I pretend to no Authority I will give you a Reason why your Thinking is insufficient You tell us That Force is not a fit Means where it is not necessary as well as useful and you prove it to be necessary because there is no other Means left Now if the Severity of the Magistrate against what I call Vice will as you will not deny promote a good Life and that be the right Way to seek the Truths of Religion here is another Means besides imposing of Creeds and Ceremonies to promote True Religion and therefore your Argument for it Necessity because of no other Means left being gone you cannot say both together are best when one of them being not necessary is therefore by your own Confession not to be used I having said That if 〈◊〉 an indirect and at a distance Usefulness were sufficient to justify the Use of Force the 〈◊〉 might make his Subjects Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven You reply That you suppose I will not say Castration is necessary because you hope I acknowledge that Marriage and that Grace which God denies to none who seriously ask it are sufficient for that Purpose And I hope you acknowledg that Preaching Admonitions and Instructions and that Grace which God denies to none who seriously ask it are sufficient for Salvation So that by this Answer of yours there being no more necessity of Force to make Men of the True Religion than there is of Castration to make Men chaste it will still remain that the Magistrate when he thinks fit may upon your Principle as well castrate Men to make them chaste as use Force to make them imbrace the Truth that must save them If Castration be not 〈◊〉 because Marriage and the Grace of God is sufficient without it nor will Force be necessary because Preaching and the Grace of God is sufficient without it and this I think by your own Rule where you tell us Where there are many useful Means and some of them are sufficient without the rest there is no necessity of using them all So that you must either quit your necessity of Force or take in Castration too which however it might not go down with the untractable and desperately perverse and obstinate People in these Western Countries yet is a Doctrine you may hope may meet with a better Reception in the Ottoman Empire and recommend you to some of my Mahometans To my saying If what we are apt to think useful were thence to be concluded so we might be in danger to be obliged to believe the pretended Miracle of the Church of Rome by your way of Reasoning Unless we will say that which without Impiety cannot be said that the wise and benign Disposer and Governor of all things does not use all useful Means for promoting his own Honour in the World and the good of Souls This I think will conclude as much for Miracles as for Force You reply You think it will not For in the place I intend you speak not of useful but of competent i. e. sufficient Means Now competent or sufficient Means are necessary but you think no Man will say that all useful Means are so And therefore though as you 〈◊〉 it cannot be said without 〈◊〉 that the wise and benign Disposer and Governor of all things has not furnish'd Mankind with competent Means for the promoting his own Honour in the World and the Good of Souls yet it is very agreeable with Pieâ—…y and with Truth too to say that he does not now use all useful Means Because as none of his Attributes obliges him to use more than sufficient Means s he may use sufficient Means without using all useful Means For where there are many useful Means and some of them are sufficient without the rest there is no necessity of using them all So that from God 's not using Miracles now to promote the True Religion I cannot conclude that he does not think them useful now but only that he does not think them necessary And therefore though what we are apt to think useful were thence to be concluded so yet if whatever is useful be not 〈◊〉 to be concluded necessary there is no reason to fear that we should be obliged to believe the Miracles pretended to by the Church of Rome For if Miracles be not now necessary there is no inconvâ—…nience in thinking the Miracles pretended to by the Church of Rome to be but pretended Miracles To which I answer Put it how you will for competent Means or useful Means it will conclude for Miracles still as much as for Force Your Words are these If such a degree of outward Force as 〈◊〉 been mentioned be really of great and necessary use for the advancing these Ends as taking the World as we find it you say you think it appears to be then it must be acknowledg'd there is a right somewhere to use it for the advancing those Ends unless we will say what without Impiety cannot be said that the wise and benign Disposer of all things has not furnish'd Mankind with competent Means for the
in the Demand he would have told us so Concerning Miracles supplying the want of Force I shall need to say nothing more here but to your Answer That God would have told us so I shall in few Words state the Matter to you You first suppose Force necessary to coâ—…pel Men to hear and thereupon suppose the Magistrate invested with a Power to compel them to hear and from thence peremptorily declare that if God would not have Force used he would have told us so You suppose also that it must be only moderate Force Now may we not ask one that is so far of the Council of the Almighty that he can positively say what he would or would not have to tell us whether it be not as probable that God who knows the Temper of Man that he has made who knows how apt he is not to spare any degree of Force whâ—… he believes he has a Commission to compel Men to do any thing in their power and who knows also how prone Man is to think it reasonable to do so whether I say it is not as probable that God if he would have the Magistrate to use none but moderate Force to compel Men to hear would also have told us so Fathers are not more apt than Magistrates to strain their Power beyond what is convenient for the Education of their Children and yet it has pleased God to tell them in the New-Testament of this Moderation by a Precept more than once repeated To my demanding ` What if God would have Men left to their freedom in this Point if they will hear or if they will forbear will you constrain them Thus we are sure he did `with his own People c. You answer But those Words whether they will hear or whether they will sorbear which we find thrice used in the Prophet Ezekiel are nothing at all to my purpose For by Hearing there no Man understands the bare giving an Ear to what was to be preach'd nor yet the considering it only but the complying with it and obeying it according to the Paraphrase which Grotius gives of the Words Methinks for this once you might have allow'd me to have hit upon something to the purpose you having deny'd me it in so many other places if it were but for Pity and one other Reason which is that all you have to say against it is that by Hearing there no Man understands the bare giving an ear to what was to be preach'd nor yet the considering it but the complying with it and obeying it If I misremember not your Hypothesis pretends the use of Force to be not barely to make Men give an ear nor yet to consider but to make them consider as they ought i. e. so as not to reject and therefore though this Text out of Ezekiel be nothing to the purpose against have giving an ear yet if you please let it stand as if it were to the purpose against your Hypothesis till you can find some other Answer to it If you will give your self the pains to turn to Aâ—…s XXVIII 24 28. you will read these Words And some believed the things that were spoken and some believed not And when they agreed not among themselves they departed after that Paul had spoken one word Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the Prophet unto our Fathers saying Go unto this People and say Hearing ye shall hear and shall not understand and Seeing ye shall see and not perceive For the Heart of this People is waxed gross and their Ears are dull of hearing and their Eyes have they closed lest they should see with their Eyes and hear with their Ears and understand with their Heart and should be converted and I should heal them Be it known therefore unto you that the Salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles and that they will hear it If one should come now and out of your Treatise call'd the Argument of the Letter concerning Toleration consider'd and answer'd reason thus It is evident that these Jews have not sought the Truth in this matter with that Application of Mind and Freedom of Judgment which was requisite whilst they suffer'd their Lusts and Passions to â—…it in judgment and manage the Enquiry The Impressions of Education the Reverence and Admiration of Persons worldly Respects and the like incompetent Motives have determin'd them Now if this be the case if these Men are averse to a due Consideration of things where they are most concern'd to use it WHAT MEANS IS THERE LEFT besides the Grace of God to reduce them out of the wrong Way they are in but to lay Thorns and Briars in it Would you not think this a good Argument to shew the necessity of using Force and Penalties upon these Men in the Acts who refused to be brought to imbrace the True Religion upon the Preaching of St. Paul For what other Means was left what humane Method could be used to bring them to make a wiser and more rational Choice but laying such Penalties upon them as might ballance the weight of such Prejudices which inclin'd them to prefer a false Way before the true Tell me I 〈◊〉 you would you not had you been a Christian Magistrate in those days have thought your self obliged to try by Force to over-ballance the Weight of those Prejudices which inclin'd them to prefer a false Way to the true for there was no other humane Means lefe and if that be not enough to prove the necessity of using it you have no Proof of any necessity of Force at all If you would have laid Penalties upon them I ask you what if God for Reasons best known to himself thought it not necessary to use any other Humane Means but Preaching and Perswasion You have a ready Answer There is no other Humane Means but Force and some other Humane Means besides Preaching is necessary i. e. in your Opinion and is it not fit your Authority should carry it For as to Miracles whether you think fit to rank them amongst Humane Means or no or whether or no there were any shew'd to these unbelieving Jews to supply the want of Force I guess in this case you will not be much help'd which ever you suppose Though to one unbiâ—…s'd who reads that Chapter it will I imagine appear most probable that St. Paul when he thus parted with them had done no Miracles amongst them But you have at the Close of the Paragraph before us provided a Salvo for all in telling us However the Penalties you defend are not skch as can any way be pretended to take away Mens Freedom in this Point The Question is Whether there be a necessity of using other Humane Means but Preaching for the bringing Men to imbrace the Truth that must save them and whether Force be it God himself seems in the Places quoted and others to teach us that he would have Men left to their freedom from any
they did not endeavour with their best Judgment to bring Men from their Humours and 〈◊〉 to the Obedience and Practice of right Reason the Society could not subsist and so they themselves would be in danger to lose their Station in it and be expos'd to the unrestrain'd Humours Passions and Violence of others And hence it comes that be Men as humoursom passionate and prejudiced as they will they are still by their own Interest obliged to make use of their best Skill and with their most unprejudiced and sedatest Thoughts take care of the Government and endeavour to preserve the Common-wealth and therefore notwithstanding their Humours and Passions their liableness to Error and Prejudice they do provide pretty well for the Support of Society and the Power in their hands is of use to the maintenance of it But in Matters of Religion it is quite otherwise you had told us about the latter end of your Argument C. how liable Men were in choosing their Religion to be misled by Humour Passion and Prejudice and therefore it was not fit that in a Business of such Concernment they should be left to themselves and hence in this Matter of Religion you would have them subjected to the Coactive Power of the Magistrate But this Contrivance is visibly of no advantage to the True Religion nor can serve at all to secure Men from a wrong Choice For the Magistrates by their Humours Prejudices and Passions which they are born to like other Men being as liable and likely to be misled in the Choice of their Religion as any of their Brethren as constant Experience hath always shewn what advantage could it be to Mankind for the Salvation of their Souls that the Magistrates of the World should have Power to use Force to bring Men to that Religion which they each of them by whatsoever Humour Passion or Prejudice influenc'd had chosen to themselves as the True For whatsoever you did I think with Reverence we may say that God foresaw that whatever Commission one Magistrate had by the Law of Nature all Magistrates had And that Commission if there were any such could be only to use their Coactive Power to bring Men to the Religion they believed to be true whether it were really the true or no And therefore I shall without taking away Government out of the World or so must as question it still think this a reasonable Question What if God foresecing this Force would be in the hands of Men as passionate as humoursom as liable to Prejudice and Error as the rest of their Brethren did not think it a proper Means in such hands to bring Men into the right Way And that it needs a better Answer than you have given to it And therefore you might have spared the pains you have taken in this Paragraph to prove that the Magistrates being liable as much as other Men to Humour Prejudice Passion and Error makes not Force in his hand wholly Unâ—…erviceable to the Administration of Civil Government Which is what no body denies and you would have better imploid it to prove that if the Magistrate's being as liable to Passion Humour Prejudice and Error as other Men made Force in his hands improper to bring Men to the True Religion this would take away Government out of the World which is a Consequence I think I may deny To which let me now add What if God foresaw that if Force of any kind or degree whatsoever were allow'd in behalf of Truth it would be us'd by â—…rring passionate prejudiced Men to the restraint and ruin of Truth as constant Experience in all Ages has shewn and therefore commanded that the Tares should be 〈◊〉 to grow with the Wheet till the Harvest when the infallible Judg should sever them That Parable of our Saviour's plainly tells us If Force were once permitted even in favour of the True Religion what Mischief it was like to do in the Misapplication of it by forward busy mistaken Men and therefore be wholly forbid it and yet I hope this does not take away Civil Government out of the World To my demanding ` What if there be other Means and saying ` Then yours ceases to be necessary upon that account that there is no other Means left for the Grace of God is another Means You answer That though the Grace of God be another Means yet it is none of the Means of which you were speaking in the place I refer to which any one who reads that Paragraph will find to be only Humane Means In that place you were endeavouring to prove Force necessary to bring Men to the True Religion as appears and there having dilated for four or five Pages together upon the Carelesness Prejudices Passions Lusts Impressions of Education worldly Respects and other the like Causes which you think mislead and keep Men from the True Religion you at last conclude Force necessary to bring Men to it because Admonitions and 〈◊〉 not prevailing there is no other Means left To this Grace being instanced in as another Means you tell us here you mean no other HUMANE Means left So that to prove Force necessary you must prove that God would have other Humane Means used besides Praying Preaching Perswasion and Instruction and for this you will need to bring a plain Direction from Revelation for your moderate Punishments unless you will pretend to know by your own natural Wisdom what Means God has made necessary without which those whom he hath foreknown and predestinated and will in his good time call by such Means as he thinks sit according to his purpose cannot be brought into the Way of Salvation Perhaps you have some Warrant we know not of to enter thus boldly into the Counsel of God without which in another Man a modest Christian would be apt to think it Presumption You say there are many who are not prevail'd on by Prayers Intreaties and Exhortations to imbrace the Religion What then is to be done Some degrees of Force are necessary to be used Why Because there is no other Humane Means left Many are not prevail'd on by your moderate Force What then is to be done Greater degrees of Force are necessary because there is no other Humane Means left No say you God has made moderate Force necessary because there is no other Humane Means left where Preaching and Intreaties will not prevail but he has not made greater degrees of Force necessary because there is no other Humane Means left where moderate Force will not prevail So that your Rule changing where the Reason continues the same we must conclude you have some way of Judging concerning the Purposes and Ways of the Almighty in the Work of Salvation which every one understands not You would not else upon so slight Ground as you have yet produced for it which is nothing but your own Imagination make Force your moderate Force so necessary that you bring in question the
Wisdom and Bounty of the Disposer and Governour of all things as if he had not furnish'd Mankind with competent Means for the promoting his own Honour in the World and the good of Souls if your moderate Force were wanting to bring them to the True Religion whereas you know that most of the Nations of the World always were destitute of this Humane Means to bring them to the True Religion And I imagine you would be put to it to name me one now that is furnish'd with it Besides if you please to remember what you say in the next Words And therefore thongh the Grace of God be both a proper and sussicient Means and such as can work by it self and without which neither Penalties nor any other Means can do any thing and by consequence can make any Means effectual How can you say any Humane Means in this supernatural Work unless what God has declar'd to be so is necessary Preaching and Instruction and Exhortation are Humane Means that he has appointed These therefore Men may and ought to use they have a Commission from God and may expect his Blessing and the Assistance of his Grace but to suppose when they are used and prevail not that Force is necessary because these are not sussicient is to exclude Grance and ascribe this Work to Humane Means as in effect you do when'you call Force competent and sussicient Means as you have done For if bare Preaching by the Assistance of Grace can and will certainly prevail and moderate Penalties as you confess or any kind of Force without the Assistance of Grace can do nothing How can you say that Force is in any case a more necessary or a more competent or sufficient Means than bare Preaching and Instruction unless you can shew us that God hath promised the Co-operation and Assistance of his Grace to Force and not to Preaching The contrary whereof has more of Appearance Preaching and Perswasion are not competent Means you say Why because without the Co-operation of Grace they can do nothing But by the Assistance of Grace they can prevail even without Force Force too without Grace you acknowledge can do nothing but join'd with Preaching and Grace it can prevail Why then I pray is it a more competent Means than Preaching or why necessary where Preaching prevails not since it can do nothing without that which if joined to Preaching can make Preaching effectual without it You go on Yet it may be true however that when Admonitions and Intreaties fail there is no HUMANE Means left but Penalties to bring prejudiced Persons to hear and consider what may convince them of their Errors and discover the Truth to them And then Penalties will be necessary in respect to that end as an HUMANE Means Let it be true or not true that when Intreaties c. fail there is no HUMANE Means left but Penalties Your Inference I deny that then Penalties will be necessary as an HUMANE Means For I ask you since you lay so much stress to so little purpose on HUMANE Means is some Humane Means necessary if that be your Meaning you have Humane Means in the case viz. Adâ—…onitions Intreaties being instant in season and out of season i ask you again Are Penalties necessary because the End could not be obtain'd by Preaching without them that you cannot say for Grace co-operating with Preaching will prevail Are Penalties then necessary as sure to produce that End nor so are they necessary for without the Assistance of Grace you consess they can do notbing So that Penalties neither as Humane Means nor as any Means are at all necessary And now you may understand what I intend by saying that the Grace of God is the only Means which is the Enquiry of your next Paragraph viz. this I intend that it is the only efficacious Means without which all Humane Means is ineffectual You tell me If by it I intend that it does either always or ordinarily exclude All other Means you see no ground I have to say it And I see no ground you have to think I intended that it excludes any other Means that God in his Goodness will be pleased to make use of But this I intend by it and this i think i have ground to say that it excludes all the Humane Means of Force from being necessary or so much as lawful to be used unless God hath required it by some more authentick Declaration than your bare saying or imagining it is necessary And you must have more than Humane Confidence if you continue to mix this poor and humane Contrivance of yours with the Wisdom and Counsel of God in the Work of Salvation since he having declar'd the Means and Methods to be used for the saving Mens Souls has in the Revelation of the Gospel by your own Consession prescribed no such Humane Means To my saying God alone can open the Ear that it may hear and open the Heart that it may understand You reply But by your favour this does not prove that he makes use of no Means in doing of it Nor needs it it is enough for me if it proves that if Preaching and Instruction doth not open the Ear or the Heart 〈◊〉 not necessary any one should try his Strength with an Hammer or an Auger Man is not in this business where no Means can be effectual without the assistance and co-operation of his Grace to make use of any Means which God hath not prescribed You here set up a way of propagating Christianity according to your Fancy and tell us how you would have the work of the Gospel carried on You commission the Magistrate by Arguments of Congruity you find an efficacy in Punishment towards the converting of Men you limit the Force to be used to low and moderate degrees and to Countries where sufficient Means of Instruction are provided by the Law And where the Magistrate's Religion is the True i. where it pleases you and all this without any Direction from God or any Authority so much as pretended from the Gospel and without its being truly for the Propagation of Christianity but only so much of it as you think fit and what else you are pleas'd to join to it Why else in the Religion you are content to have establish'd by Law and promoted by Penalties is any thing more or less requir'd than is exprestly contain'd in the New Testament This indeed is well suited to any one who would have a Power of punishing those who differ from his Opinion and would have Men compell'd to Conformity in England But in this your fair Contrivance what becomes of the rest of Mankind left to wander in Darkness out of this Goshen who neither have nor according to your Scheme can have your necessary Means of Force and Penalties to bring them to imbrace the Truth that must save them For if that be necessary they cannot without a Miracle either Prince or
True Religion a Pault to be punish'd by the Magistrate puts an end to your Pretence to moderate Punishments which in this place you make use of to distinguish yours from the French Method saying That your Method punishes Men with Punishments which do not deserve to be called so when compared with those of the French Discipline But if the Dissenting from the True Religion be a Fault that the Magistrate is to punish and a Fault of that consequence that it draws with it the loss of a Man's Soul I do not see how other Magistrates whose Duty it is to punish Faults under his Cognizance and by punishing to amend them can be more remiss than the King of France has been and foâ—…bear declaring that they will have all their People saved and endeavour by such Ways as he has done to effect it Especially since you tell us That God now leaves Religion to the Care of Men under his ordinary Providence to try whether they will do their Duties in their several Capacities or not leaving them answerable for all that may follow from their Neglect In the correcting of Faults Malo nodo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not only what is justifiable but what is requisite But of this more fully in another place In the next place I do not see how by your Method as you explain it here the Magistrate can punish any one for not being of the True Religion though we should grant him to have a Power to do it whilst you tell us That your Method punishes Men for rejecting the True Religion propos'd to them with sufficient Evidence which certainly is a Fault By this Part of your Scheme it is plain that you allow the Magistrate to punish none but those to whom the True Religion is propos'd with sufficient Evidence And sufficient Evidence you tell us is such as will certainly win 〈◊〉 where-ever it is duty consider'd Now by this Rule there will be very few that the Magistrate will have right to punish since he cannot know whether those who dissent do it for want of due Consideration in them or want of sufficient Evidence in what is proposed unless you mean by due Consideration such Consideration that always does bring Men actually to 〈◊〉 which is in effect to say nothing at all For then your Rule amounts to thus much That sufficient Evidence is such as will certainly win Assent where-ever it is consider'd duly i. e. so as to win Assent This being like some of those other Rules we have met with and ending in a Circle Which after you have traced you at last sind your self just where you were at setting out I leave it to you to own as you think sit And tell you if by duly considering you mean considering to his utmost that then that which is propos'd to one with sufficient Evidence to win Assent may not be so to another There are Propositions extant in Geometry with their Demonstrations annexed and that with such sufficient Evidence to some Men of deep Thought and Penetration as to make them see the Demonstration and give Assent to the Truth Whilst there are many others and those no Noâ—…ices in Mathematicks who with all the Consideration and Attention they can use are never able to attain unto it 'T is so in other Parts of Truth That which hath Evidence enough to make one Man certain has not enough to make another so much as guess it to be true though he has spared no Endcavour or Application in examining it And therefore if the Magistrate be to punish none but those who reject the True Religion when it has been offer'd with sufficient Evidence I imagine he will not have many to punish if he will as he ought distinguish between the Innocent and the Guilty Upon your Forwardness to encourage the Magistrate's use of Force in Matters of Religion by its Usefulness even so far as to pretend Advantages from what your self acknowledge the Misapplication of it I say that So instead of 〈◊〉 from you give Encouragement to the Mischief which upon your Principle join'd to the natural Thirst in Man after Arbitrary Power may be carried to all manner of Exorbitancy with some Pretence of Right To which your Reply is That you speak on-where but of the Use and Necessity of Force What think you in the place mention'd of the Gain that you tell the Sufferers they shall make by the Magistrate's punishing them to bring them to a wrong Religion You do not as I remember there say that Force is necessary in that case Though they gaining as you say by it this Advantage that they know better than they did before where the Truth does 〈◊〉 You cannot but allow that such a Misapplication of Force may do some Service indirectly and at a distance towards the Salvation of Souls But that you may not think whilst I had under Consideration the dangerous Encouragement you gave to Men in Power to be very busy with their Force in Matters of Religion by all the â—…orts of Usefulness you could imagine of it however apply'd right or wrong that I declin'd mentioning the Necessity you pretend of Force because it would not as well serve to the purpose for which I mention its Usefulness I shall here take it so that the Reader may see what reason you had to complain of my not doing it before Thus then stands your System The procuring and advancing any way of the spiritual and eternal Interests of Men is one of the Ends of Civil Society And Force is put into the Magistrate's hands as necessary for the attaining those Ends where no other Means are left Who then upon your Grounds may quickly find Reason where it â—…utes his Inclination or serves his Turn to punish Men directly to bring them to his Religion For if he may use Force because it is necessary as being the only Means left to make Men consider those Reasons and Arguments which otherwise they would not consider Why may he not by the same Rule use Force as the only Means left to make Men degrees of G'ory which otherwise they would not attain and so to advance their eternal Interests For St. Paul 〈◊〉 us that the 〈◊〉 of this Life work for us a far more exceâ—…ding weight of Glory So that whether the Magistrate may not when it may serve his turn argue thus from your Principles judg you Dissenters from my Religion must be punish'd if in the wrong to bring them into the right Way if in the right to make them by their Sufferings Gainers of a far more exceeding weight of Glory But you say Unless it be as necessary for Men to attain any greater degree of Glory as it is to attain Glory it will not follow that if the Magistrate may use Force because it may be indirectly c. useful towards the procuring any degree of Glory he may by the same Rule use it where it may be in that manner
necessary Means of Force in the way you contend for reaches no farther than to bring Men to a bare outward Conformity to the Church of England wherein you can â—…dately affirm that it is presumable that all that are of it are so upon Reason and Conviction I suppose there needs no more to be said to convince the World what Party you write for The Party you write for is God you say But if all you have said aims or amounts to nothing more than that the Church of England as now establish'd by Law in its Doctrines Ceremonies and Discipline should be supported by the Power of the Magistrate and Men by Force be driven into it I fear the World will think you have very narrow Thoughts of God or that that is not the Party you write for 'T is true you all along speak of bringing Men to the True Religion But to evidence to you that by the one only True Religion you mean only that of the Church of England I tell you that upon your Principles you cannot name any other Church now in the World and I again demand of you to do it for the promoting whereof or punishing Dissenters from it the Magistrate has the same Right to use Force as you pretend he has here in England Till you therefore name some such other True Church and True Religion besides that of England your saying that God is the Party you write for will rather shew that you make bold with his Name than that you do not write for another Party You say too you write not for any Party but the Soâ—…s of Men. You write indeed and contend earnestly that Men should be brought into an outward Conformity to the Church of England But that they imbrace that Profession upon Reason and Conviction you are content to have it presumable without any farther Enquiry or Examination And those who are once in the outward Communion of the National Church however ignorant or irreligious they are you leave there 〈◊〉 by your only competent Means Force without which you tell us the True Religion by its own Light and Strength is not able to prevail against Mens Lusts and the Corruption of Nature so as to be consider'd as it ought and heartily imbraced And this drop'd not from your Pen by chance But you professedly make Excuses for those of the National Religion who are ignorant of the Grounds of it And give us Reasons why Force cannot be used to those who outwardly conform to make them consider so as sincerely to imbrace believe and obey the Truth that must save them But the â—…verend Author of the Pastoral Care tell you PARTY is the true Name of making Converts except they become at the same time good Men. If the use of Force be necessary for the Salvation of Souls and Mens Souls be the Party you write for you will be suspected to have betrayed your Party if your Method and necessary Means of Salvation reach no farther than to bring Men to outward Conformity though to the True Church and after that abandons them to their Lusts and depraved Natures destitute of the help of Force your necessary and competent Means of Salvation This way of managing the Matter whatever you intend â—…ms rather in the Fitness of it to be for another Party But since you assure us you write for nothing but God and Mens Souls it can only be said you had a good Intention but ill Luck since your Scheme put into the Language of the Country will sit any National Church and Clergy in the World that can but suppose it self the True and that I presume none of them will fail to do You were more than ordinary reserv'd and gracious when you tell me That what Party I write for you will not undertake to say But having told me that my Letter tends to the promoting of 〈◊〉 in Religion you thought 't is like that was sufficient to shew the Party I write for and so you might safely end your Letter with Words that looked like civil But that you may another time be a little better informed what Party I write for I will tell you They are those who in every Nation â—…ear God 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and are accepted with him and not those who in every Nation are zealous for Humane Constitutions cry up nothing so much as outward Conâ—…ormity to the National Religion and are accepted by those who are the Promoters of it Those that I write for are those who according to the Light of their own Conâ—…ences are every-where in earnest in Matters of their own Salvation without any desire to impose on others A Party so seldom favour'd by any of the Powers or Sects of the World A Party that has so few Preferments to bestow so few 〈◊〉 to reward the â—…ndeavours of any one who appears for it that I conclude I shall easily be believ'd when I say that neither Hopes of Preferment nor a Design to recommend my self to those I live amongst has 〈◊〉 my Understanding or misled me in my Undertaking So much Truth as serves the turn of any particular Church and can be accommodated to the narrow Interest of some Humane Constitution is indeed often received with applause and the Publisher finds his account in it But I think I may say Truth in its full Latitude of those generous Principles of the Gospel which so much recommend and inculcate universal Charity and a Freedom from the Inventions and Impositions of Men in the things of God has so seldom had a fair and favourable Hearing any where that he must be very ignorant of the History and Nature of Man however dignified and distinguish'd who proposes to himself any secular Advantage by writing for her at that rate As to your Request in the Close of your Letter I hope this will satisfy you that you might have spar'd it And you with the rest of the World will see that all I 〈◊〉 in my former Letter was so true that you need not have given me any caution for the future As to the 〈◊〉 of what I say I doubt whether I shall please you Because I find by your last Letter that what is brought by me to shew the Weakness Absurdities or 〈◊〉 of what you write you are very apt to call 〈◊〉 and nothing to the purpose You must pardon me therefore if I have endeavour'd more to please other Readers than you in that Point I hope they will find in what I have said not much besides the matter But to a Man who supposing himself in the right builds all upon that Supposition and takes it for an Injury to have that Privilege deny'd him To a Man who would soveraignly decide for all the World what is the True Religion and thereby impower what Magistrates he thinks fit and what not to use Force To 〈◊〉 a Man not to seem 〈◊〉 would be really to be so This makes me pleas'd with your Reply to so many
Passages of my Letter that they were nothing to the purpose And 't is in your Choice whether in your Opinion any thing in this shall be so But since this depends upon your keeping steadily to clear and 〈◊〉 Notions of things separate from Words and 〈◊〉 used in a doubtful and undetermin'd Signification wherewith 〈◊〉 of Art often 〈◊〉 themselves and others I shall not be so unreasonable as to expect whatever you promise that you should â—…y by your Learning to imbrace Truth and own what will not perhaps sute very well with your Circumstances and Interest I see my Design not to omit any thing that you might think looks like an Argument In yours has made mine grow beyond the size of a Letter But an Answer to any one being very little different from a Letter I shall let it go under that Title I have in it also endeavour'd to bring the scatter'd Parts of your Scheme into some Method under distinct Heads to give a fuller and more 〈◊〉 View of them Wherein if any of the Arguments which give support to your Hypothesis have escaped me unawares be pleased to shew them me and I shall either acknowledg their Force or endeavour to shew their Weakness I am SIR Your most Humble Servant PHILANTHROPUS June 20 1593. FINIS ERRATA Pag. Line Read 1 21 THose 8 33 Either 13 27 Baptism The 18 11 those who both 21 15 a Chirurgion 27 3 A. p. 20. In the Margin  4 the Doctrine d. P. 121. 30 26 them That  26 shew 37 30 P. 27. In the Margin 38 13 Consideration whoever 42 35 P. 271 In the Margin 45 12 Penalties 46 7 their Arguments cannot prevail 48 6 things I 53 9 should Yet 58 2 will not 69 8 give in to 71 13 for  17 himself it 83 15 munion excluding 108 34 named it will 110 28 nishments 119 12 learn from  14 fit you  26 however beholden 127 7 do If 136 19 Hearts the 165 9 unless we 169 1 Argument I 171 9 no. 173 24 these ends 187 33 P. 70. In the Margin 188 20 and not 189 23 P. 70. In the Margin 193 3 Deviation 194 9 Examination which 207 27 Religion uponr 217 6 Magistrate 218 11 down 220 19 Conviction when 221 27 Conformity 225 5 in my opinion 228 37 was replied 261 36 them What 263 27 Asia Alexandrum Pseudomantim 265 39 Want 267 36 single Reliques 268 27 Plantins 273 24 little If 274 15 Administrations 277 20 uninterrupted 278 26 Parish where 296 20 Force 304 37 is what 305 1 cannot without  2 Revelation than usefulness be  6 Souls may all be justified 311 27 consistent 313 10 the Societies  11 places  15 which Force so 314 34 so much as questioning 315 16 Wheat  35 ligion you 316 13 the True Religion 329 27 is not  35 points effectual 335 10 Acknowledg'd 343 8 P. 73. In the Margin Books Printed 〈◊〉 and Sold by A. and J. Churchill at 〈◊〉 Black Swan in Peter-Noster-Row 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Roman History Forcacio's Novels and Tales 〈◊〉 Paul 〈◊〉 Lives of the Popes of Rome History of the Turks Two Vol. Rushworth's Historical Collections Lloyd Dictionariun Historicum Pocticum Geographicum Statutes of Ireland Bolton Justice of Ireland Sir George Wheeler's Travels into Greece Leybourn's Dialling 〈◊〉 Chronicle and History of the Kings of Scotland Machiavel's Works Thesaurus Brevium Sir Simon Dew's Journal of Parliament Q. Elizabeth Dr. Brady's Introduction to the History of England Milton's Paradise regain'd Leybourn Cursus Mathematicus Sir Roger L' Estrange IF sop's Fables Bp. Hall's Contemplations Clark Praxis Cur. Ecclesiasticis Dr. Gibson's Anatomy Dr. Patrick Mensa Mystica Gentleman's Recreations 〈◊〉 L' Clere's Logica c. Drelincourt of Death Beybourn's Arithmetick Protestant Reconciler Compleat Homer's 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Minores Royal Grammar Gibbon's Heraldry Partridge's Treasury of Physick Bp. 〈◊〉 of Prayer and Preaching Thibault's Chymistry Glasier's Chymistry Valerius Maximus English Two Treatises of Government The Three Letters for Toleration Some Considerations of the Consequences of Lowring Interest and raising the Value of Money Sir William Temple's Observations on Holland Misellanea Dr. Burnet's Travels Plato 〈◊〉 Selden's Table-Talk Debates of Oxon and 〈◊〉 Parliaments Titi Petronii arbitrii Satyricon cum fragmentis AttaeceGraecae recuper at 〈◊〉 Anno 1688. Livii Orationes selectae 12 o. Sleidan de quatuor summis Imperiisve Aristotle's Rhetorick English Dr. Whitby's several Pieces Partridge's Astrology 〈◊〉 Orationes large 12 o. Lat. Guide to Heaven 24 o. Latin Testament the Cambridg Edition Chap. 1. Pag. 76. Pag. 31. Pag. 35. P. 24. P. 29. P. 27. P. 15. P. 31. P. 13. 〈◊〉 29. A. p. 16. P. 10 P. 53. P. 51. P. 53. P. 53. P. 53. P. 54. P. 11. P. 7. P. 〈◊〉 L. 2. p. 48. A. p. 17. Acts IV. 2. A. p. 2. P. 121. L. 2. p. 59. P. 64. P. 65.66 A. p. 22 A. p. 22. L. 2. p. 60. A. p. 22. L. 2. p. 60. P. 66. P. 76. P. 48. P. 50. P. 48. P. 78. P. 64. P. 22. P. 13. P. 20. P. 20. P. 63. Chap. 2. P. 35. P. 31. Job XXI 26 27 28. Matth. XXVIII 18. P. 17. A. p. 18. p. 58. Matth. XXVIII 18. Joh. XVII 2. P. 56. P. 55. P. 57. A. p. 18. L. 2. p. 51. P. 58. P. 51. P. 58. Chap. XLVIII 10. P. 59. P. 60. P. 61. 1 Pet. II. 13 P. 62. L. 3. p. 63. As to your next Paragraph I think I might now wholly pass it over I shall only tell you that as I have often heard so I hope I shall always hear of Religion establish'd by Law For though the 〈◊〉 Authority can add no Force or Sanction to any Religion whether true or fâ—…lse nor any thing to the Truth or Validity of his own or any Religion whatsoever yet I think it may do much toward the upholding and preserving the true Religion within his 〈◊〉 and in that respect may properly enough be said to establish it Chap. 3. L. 2. p. 2. P. 2. P. 3. P. 3. P. 62. 〈◊〉 4. 〈◊〉 XVII 〈◊〉 1 Pet. V. 〈◊〉 3. L. 2. p. 2. P. 13. P. 23. P. 24. P. 45 P. 24 P. 24. P. 24. P. 51. P. 25. P. 40. P. 25. 〈◊〉 2. p. 24. P. 45. A. p 6 c P. 〈◊〉 L. 2. p. 46. P. 48. P. 46. P. 〈◊〉 P. 48. P. 1. P. 2. 〈◊〉 7. P. 19. P. 〈◊〉 L. 2. p. 40. A. p. 24. A. p. 15. A. p. 12. A. p. 14. A. p. 12. P. 49. P. 49. Ibid. P. 49. P. 50. P. 49. L. 2. p. 〈◊〉 P. 50. L. 2. p. 43. P. 50. P. 50. P. 50. P. 19. P. 20. P. 8. P. 19. P. 10. P. 41. P. 27. L. 2. p. 11. A. p. 13. P. 21. P. 44. P. 34. P. 11. P. 50. P. 34. P. 49. P. 34. L. 2. p. 21. P. 38. Chap. 5. L. 2. p. 43. P. 51. P. 46. P. 50. P. 51. P. 42. A. p. 16. P. 51. Chap. 6. P. 27. L. 2. p.
external Communion In this lording it over the Heritage of God and thus overseeing by Imposition on the unwilling and not consenting which seems to be the meaning of St. Peter most of the lasting Sects which so mangle Christianity had their Original and continue to have their Support and were it not for these establish'd Sects under the specious Names of National Churches which by their contracted and arbitrary Limits of Communion justify against themselves the Separation and like Narrowness of others the Difference of Opinions which do not so much begin to be as to appear and be owned under Toleration would either make no Sect nor Division or else if they were so extravagant as to be opposite to what is necessary to Salvation and so necessitate a Separation the clear Light of the Gospel joined with a strict Discipline of Manners would quickly chase them out of the World But whilst needless Impositions and moot Points in Divinity are established by the Penal Laws of Kingdoms and the specious Pretences of Authority what Hopes is there that there should be such an Union amongst Christians any where as might invite a rational Turk or Infidel to imbrace a Religion whereof he is told they have a Revelation from God which yet in some Places he is not suffered to read and in no Place shall he be permitted to understand for himself or to follow according to the best of his Understanding when it shall at all thwart though in things confessed not necessary to Salvation any of those select Points of Doctrine Discipline or outward Worship whereof the National Church has been pleased to make up its Articles Polity and Ceremonies And I ask what a sober sensible Heathen must think of the Divisions amongst Christians not owing to Toleration if he should find in an Island where Christianity seems to be in its greatest Purity the South and North Parts establishing Churches upon the Differences of only whether fewer or more thus and thus chosen should govern tho the Revelation they both pretend be their Rule say nothing directly one way or â—…other each contending with so much Eagerness that they deny each other to be Churches of Christ that is in effect to be true Christians To which if one should add Transubstantiation Consubstantiation Real Presence Articles and Distinctions set up by Men without Authority from Scripture and other less Differences which good Christians may dissent about without endangering their Salvations established by Law in the several Parts of Christendom I ask Whether the Magistrates interposing in Matters of Religion and establishing National Churches by the Force and Penalties of Civil Laws with their distinct and at home reputed necessary Confessions and Ceremonies do not by Law and Power authorize and perpetuate Sects among Christians to the great Prejudice of Christianity and Scandal to Insidels more than any thing that can arise from a mutual Toleration with Charity and a good Life Those who have so much in their Mouths the Authors of Sects and Divisions with so little advantage to their Cause I shall desire to consider whether National Churches established as now they are are not as much Sects and Divisions in Christianity as smaller Collections under the name of distinct Churches are in respect of the National only with this difference that these Subdivisions and discountenanced Sects wanting Power to enforce their peculiar Doctrines and Discipline usually live more friendly like Christians and seem only to demand Christian Liberty whereby there is less appearance of Unchristian Division among them Whereas those National Sects being back'd by the Civil Power which they never fail to make use of at least as a pretence of Authority over their Brethren usually breath out nothing but Force and Persecution to the great Reproach Shame and Dishonour of the Christian Religion I said That if the Magistrates would severely and impartially set themselves against Vice in whomsoever it is found and leave Men to their own Consciences in their Articles of Faith and Ways of Worship true Religion would spread wider and be more fruitful in the Lives of its Professors than ever hitherto it has done by the imposing of Creeds and Ceremonies Here I call only Immorality of Manners Vice you on the contrary in your Answer give the Name of Vice to Errors in Opinion and Difference in Ways of Worship from the National Church for this is the Matter in question between us express it as you please This being a Contest only about the signification of a short Syllable in the English Tongue we must leave to the Masters of that Language to judg which of these two is the proper use of it But yet from my using the word Vice you conclude presently taking it in your Sense not mine that the Magistrate has a Power in England for England we are speaking of to punish Dissenters from the National Religion because it is a Vice I will if you please in what I said change the word Vice into that I meant by it and say thus If the Magistrates will severely and impartially set themselves against the Dishonesty and Debauchery of Mens Lives and such Immoralities as I contra-distinguish from Errors in speculative Opinions of Religion and Ways of Worship and then pray see how your Answer will look for thus it runs It seems then with you the rejecting the true Religion and refusing to worship God in decent Ways prescribed by those to whom God has left the ordering of those Matters are not comprehended in the name Vice But you tell me If I except these things and will not allow them to be called by the name of Vice perhaps other Men may think it as reasonable to except some other things i. e. from being called Vices which they have a kindness for For instance some may perhaps except arbitrary Divorce Polygamy Concubinage simple Fornication or Marrying within Degrees thought forbidden Let them except these and if you will Drunkenness Theft and Murder too from the name of Vice nay call them Vertues Will they by their calling them so be exempt from the Magistrate's Power of punishing them Or can they claim an Impunity by what I have said Will these Immoralities by the Names any one shall give or forbear to give to them become Articles of Faith or Ways of Worship Which is all as I expresly say in the Words you here cite of mine that I would have the Magistrates leave Men to their own Consciences in But Sir you have for me Liberty of Conscience to use Words in what sense you please only I think where another is concerned it favours more of Ingenuity and love of Truth rather to mind the Sense of him that speaks than to make a dust and noise with a mistaken Word if any such Advantage were given you You say That some Men would through Carelesness never acquaint themselves with the Truth which must save them without being forced to do it which you suppose may
that Church and then I am sure that is it that you would name for of whatever Church you are if you think the Ministers of any one Church ought to be hear kned to and obeyed it must be those of your own There are Persons to be punished you say This you contend for all through your Book and lay so much stress on it that you make the Preservation and Propagation of Religion and the Salvation of Souls to depend on it and yet you describe them by so general and equivocal Marks that unless it be upon Suppositions which no body will grant you I dare say neither you nor any body else will be able to find one guilty Pray find me if you can a Man whom you can judicially prove for he that is to be punished by Law must be fairly tried is in a wrong way in respect of his Faith I mean who is deaf to all Perswasions who flies from all means of a right Information who refuses to imbrace the Doctrine and submit to the Government of the Spiritual Pastors And when you have done that I think I may allow you what Power you please to punish him without any prejudice to the Toleration the Author of the Letter proposes But why I pray all this boggling all this loose talking as if you knew not what you meant or durst not speak it out Would you be for punishing some body you know not whom I do not think so ill of you Let me then speak out for you The Evidence of the Argument has convinced you that Men ought not to be persecuted for their Religion That the Severities in use amongst Christians cannot be defended That the Magistrate has not Authority to compel any one to his Religion This you are forced to yield But you would fain retain some Power in the Magistrate's Hands to punish Dissenters upon a new Pretence viz. not for having imbraced the Doctrine and Worship they believe to be True and Right but for not having well considered their own and the Magistrate's Religion To shew you that I do not speak wholly without book give me leave to mind you of one Passage of yours the Words are 〈◊〉 to put them upon a serious and impartial examination of the Controversy between the Magistrate and them Though these Words be not intended to tell us who you would have punished yet it may be plainly inferr'd from them And they more clearly point out whom you aim at than all the foregoing Places where you seem to and should describe them For they are such as between whom and the Magistrate there is a Controversy that is in short who differ from the Magistrate in Religion And now indeed you have given us a Note by which these you would have punished may be known We have with much ado found at last whom it is we may presume you would have punished Which in other Cases is usually not very difficult because there the Faults to be amended easily design the Persons to be corrected But yours is a new Method and unlike all that ever went before it In the next place let us see for what you would have them punished You tell us and it will easily be granted you that not to examine and weigh impartially and without Prejudice or Passion all which for shortness sake we will express by this one word Consider the Religion one embraces or refuses is a Fault very common and very prejudicial to true Religion and the Salvation of Mens Souls But Penalties and Punishments are very necessary say you to remedy this Evil. Let us now see how you apply this Remedy Therefore say you let all Dissenters be punished Why Have no Dissenters considered of Religion Or have all Conformists considered That you your self will not say Your Project therefore is just as reasonable as if a Lethargy growing Epidemical in England you should propose to have a Law made to blister and scarify and shave the Heads of all who wear Gowns tho it be certain that neither all who wear Gowns are Lethargick nor all who are Lethargick wear Gowns Dii te Damaâ—…ppe Deaeque Vâ—…um ob consilium donent tonsore For there could not be certainly a more Learned Advice than that one Man should be pull'd by the Ears because another is asleep This when you have consider'd of it again for I find according to your Principle all Men have now and then need to be jogg'd you will I guess be convinced is not like a fair Physician to apply a Remedy to a Disease but like an engaged Enemy to ' vent one's Spleen upon a Party Common Sense as well as Common Justice requires that the Remedies of Laws and Penalties should be directed against the Evil that is to be removed where-ever it be found And if the Punishment you think so necessary be as you pretend to cure the Mischief you complain of you must let it pursue and fall on the Guilty and those only in what Company soever they are and not as you here propose and is the highest Injustice punish the innocent considering Dissenter with the Guilty and on the other side let the inconsiderate guilty Conformist scape with the Innocent For one may rationally presume that the National Church has some nay more in proportion of those who little consider or concern themselves about Religion than any Congregation of Dissenters For Conscience or the Care of their Souls being once laid aside Interest of course leads Men into that Society where the Protection and Countenance of the Government and hopes of Preferment bid fairest to all their remaining Desires So that if careless negligent inconsiderate Men in Matters of Religion who without being forced would not consider are to be rouzed into a Care of their Souls and a Search after Truth by Punishments the National Religion in all Countries will certainly have a right to the greatest share of those Punishments at least not to be wholly exempt from them This is that which the Author of the Letter as I remember complains of and that justly viz. That the pretended Care of Mens Souls always expresses it self in those who would have Force any way made use of to that End in very unequal Methods some Persons being to be treated with Severity whilst others guilty of the same Faults are not to be so much as touched Though you are got pretty well out of the deep Mud and renounce Punishments directly for Religion yet you stick still in this part of the Mire whilst you would have Dissenters punished to make them consider but would not have any thing done to Conformists though never so negligent in this point of considering The Author's Letter pleased me because it is equal to all Mankind is direct and will I think hold every-where which I take to be a good Mark of Truth For I shall always suspect that neither to comport with the Truth of Religion or the Design of the Gospel which is suted to only
some one Country or Party What is True and Good in England will be True and Good at Rome too in China or Geneva But whether your great and only Method for the propagating of Truth by bringing the Inconsiderate by Punishments to consider would according to your way of applying your Punishments only to Dissenters from the National Religion be of use in those Countries or any where but where you suppose the Magistrate to be in the right judg you Pray Sir consider a little whether Prejudice has not some share in your way of arguing For this is your Position Men are generally negligent in examining the Grounds of their Religion This I grant But could there be a more wild and incoherent Consequence drawn from it than this Therefore Dissenters must be punished All this you are pleased to pass over without the least Notice but perhaps you think you have made me full Satisfaction in your Answer to my Demand who are to be punish'd We will here therefore consider that as it stands where you tell us Those who are to be punished according to the whole Tenour of your Answer are no other but such as having sufficient Evidence tender'd them of the true Religion do yet reject it whether utterly refusing to consider that Evidence or not considering as they ought viz. with such Care and Diligence as the matter deserves and requires and with honest and unbiassed Minds and what Difficulty there is in this you say you cannot imagine You promised you would tell the World who they were plainly and directly And though you tell us you cannot imagine what Difficulty there is in this your Account of who are to be punished yet there are some things in it that make it to my Apprehension not very plain and direct For first they must be only those who have the true Religion tender'd them with sufficient Evidence Wherein there appears some Difficulty to me who shall be Judg what is the true Religion and for that in every Country 't is most probable the Magistrate will be If you think of any other pray tell us Next there seems some Difficulty to know who shall be Judg what is sufficient Evidence For where a Man is to be punished by Law he must be convicted of being guilty which since in this Case he cannot be unless it be proved he has had the true Religion tender'd to him with sufficient Evidence it is necessary that some body there must be Judg what is the true Religion and what is sufficient Evidence and others to prove it has been so tender'd If you were to be of the Jury we know what would be your Verdict concerning sufficient Evidence by these Words of yours To say that a Man who has the true Religion proposed to him with sufficient Evidence of its Truth may consider it as he ought or do his utmost in considering and yet not 〈◊〉 the Truth of it is neither more nor less than to say that sufficient Evidence is not sufficient For what does any Man mean by sufficient Evidence but such as will certainly win Assent where-ever it is duly considered Upon which his conforming or not conforming would without any farther Questions determine the Point But whether the rest of the Jury could upon this be able ever to bring in any Man guilty and so liable to Punishment is a Question For if sufficient Evidence be only that which certainly wins Assent where-ever a Man does his utmost in considering 't will be very hard to prove that a Man who rejects the true Religion has had it tender'd with sufficient Evidence because it will be very hard to prove he has not done his utmost in considering it So that notwithstanding all you have here said to punish any Man by your Method is not yet so very practicable But you clear all in your following Words which say There is nothing more evident than that those who reject the true Religion are culpable and deserve to be punished By whom By Men That 's so far from being evident as you talk that it will require better Proofs than I have yet seen for it Next you say 'T is easy enough to know when Men reject the true Religion Yes when the true Religion is known and agreed on what shall be taken to be so in Judicial Proceedings which can scarce be till 't is agreed who shall determine what is true Religion and what not Suppose a Penalty should in the University be laid on those who rejected the true Peripatetick Doctrine could that Law be executed on any one unless it were agreed who should be Judg what was the true Peripatetick Doctrine If you say it may be known out of Aristotle's Writings then I answer that it would be a more reasonable Law to lay the Penalty on any one who rejected the Doctrine contained in the Books allowed to be Aristotle's and printed under his Name You may apply this to the true Religion and the Books of the Scripture if you please though after all there must be a Judg agreed on to determine what Doctrines are contained in either of those Writings before the Law can be practicable But you go on to prove that it is easy to know when Men reject the true Religion for say you that requires no more than that we know that that Religion was 〈◊〉 to them with sufficient Evidence of the Truth of it And that it may be tender'd to Men with such Evidence and that it may be known when it is so tender'd these things you say you take leave here to suppose You suppose then more than can be allow'd you For that it can be judicially known that the true Religion has been tender'd to any one with sufficient Evidence is what I deny and that for Reasons above mentioned which were there no other Difficulty in it were sufficient to shew the Unpracticableness of your Method You conclude this Paragraph thus Which is all that needs be said upon this Head to shew the Consistency and Practicableness of this Method And what do you any where say against this Whether I say any thing or no against it I will bring a Friend of yours that will say that Dissenters ought to be punished for being out of the Communion of the Church of England I will ask you now how it can be proved that such an one is guilty of rejecting the one only true Religion Perhaps it is because he 〈◊〉 the Cross in Baptism or Godfathers and Godmothers as thâ—…y are used or kneeling at the Lord's Supper perhaps it is because he cannot pronounce all damn'd that believe not all 〈◊〉 's Creed or cannot join with some of those Repetitions in our Common Prayer thinking them to come within the Prohibition of our Saviour each of which shuts a Man out from the Communion of the Church of England as much as if he denied Jesus Christ to be the Son of God Now Sir I beâ—…eech you how