father and his Cardinals were eighteene yeres prouoking working the Princes States adherent to them to spill christian blood to make hauocke of al places persons that were not â—â—â—dient to the Bishop of Rome yet you count it some great absurditie for vs to reiect this Councell as not generall Phi. You acknowledge no subiection to Councels or Tribunals abroad all other Bishops Patriarkes Apostles Christ all because they were be forrainers not hauing iurisdiction or sufficieÌ„t authoritie to define against English Sectaries or Errors And this when a Realme or Prince is in error taketh away all meanes of reducing theÌ„ to the truth againe Theo. To Christ his Apostles we acknowledge more subiection than you doe We honor adore him as the true son of God equall with his father in authority maiesty We make him no forrainer to this Realm as you do but professe him to be the only master redeemer ruler of his church as wel in this as in all other Nations To whom Princes Preachers are but seruaÌ„ts the preachers to propose the Princes to execute his will commandements whom all that wil be saued must beleeue obey aboue against all Councels Tribunals be they regall or papall if they dissent from his word The preachings writings of the Apostles we receiue with greater reuereÌ„ce exacter obedience than you do We giue no man leaue to dispence against theÌ„ which your law witnesseth of the Pope Papa coÌ„tra ApostoluÌ„ dispensat The Pope dispeÌ„seth against the Apostle We neuer said as Pigghius saith The Apostles wrote certaine things not that their writinges should bee aboue our faith and religion but rather vnder Wee confesse The Apostles were men allowed of God to whom the Gospel should be committed therefore we receiue the word from theÌ„ not as the word of man but as it is in deed the word of God assuring our selues it is the power of God to saue all that beleeue detesting your erronious and heynous presumptions that take vppon you to adde alter diminish and dispence with that which the spirite of Christ spake as well by the pennes as mouthes of the Apostles To Councels such as the Church of Christ was wont by the helpe of her religious Princes to call we owe communion and brotherly concord so long as they make no breach in faith nor in christian charitie subiection and seruitude wee owe them none the blessed Angels professe themselues to bee fellowe seruantes with the Sainctes on earth what are you then that with your Tribunals and iurisdictions woulde bee Lordes and Rulers ouer Christes inheritance Peter saith Cyprian whom the Lord made first choice of on whom he built his church when Paul after stroue with him for Circumcision did not take vpon him nor chalenge any thing insolentlie or arrogantly nor aduaunce him-selfe as Primate and one to whom the nouices and puinees shoulde bee subiect And as it were in open defiance of your Tribunals and iurisdictions which Stephen the Bishoppe of Rome began then to exercise he directeth the Bishops assembled in a Councell at Carthage on this wise It resteth that of this matter wee speake euerie one of vs what we thinke iudging no man nor remouing any man from the communion though he be not of our minde For none of vs maketh himselfe Bishop of Bishops or by terrour like a tyrant forceth his collegues to yeeld him obedience whether they will or no considering euerie Bishop by reason of his Episcopal power and freedom hath the rule of his owne iudgement as one that can not bee iudged of an other nor hee him-selfe iudge an other but let vs al expect the tribunal or iudgement of our Lord Iesus Christ which only solely hath power to set vs in the gouernment of his Church and to iudge of our actes And because you be so earnest with vs for subiection to Tribunals abroade to bee plaine with you it is boyes plaie before you name them or proue that wee owe them any subiection to skore it vppe as an absurditie that wee acknowledge none vnto them and yet least you shoulde thinke vs the first that refused Tribunals abroade you shall see that ancient and worthy fathers haue done the like before vs. What Tribunals abroade did Cyprian and the 80. Bishoppes at Carthage with him acknowledge when hee saide as you hearde Christus vnus solus habet potestatem de actu nostro iudicandi Christ only and none else hath authoritie to iudge of our act And agaiâ—e Episcopus ab alâ—o iudicari non potest cum non ipse nec alterum iudicare A Bishop may not be iudged of others nor iudge others Expectemus vniuersi iudicium Christi Let vs all both abroad and at home expect the iudgement of Christ. What Tribunals abroade did Polycrates and the Bishops of Asia with him acknowledge when hee replied to the Bishoppe of Rome threatning to excommunicate him and the rest Non turbaborijs quae terrendi gratia obijciuntur I passe not for these threats that are offered to terrifie me What Tribunals abroad did S. Aug. the 216. African Bishops acknowledge when they decreed that none Appealing ouer the Sea to Tribunals abroad should be receiued to the communion within Africa And when they repelled the Bishop of Rome laboring to place his Legates a latere within their Prouince willed him nâ—t to bring Fumosum seculi Typhum That smoky pride of the world into the Church of Christ What Tribunals abroad did the Bishop of the Britons acknowledge when they proued to August the Moncke that was sent from Rome that they ought him no subiection Nay what Tribunal abroad did Greg. the Bishop of Rome chalenge when he wrote thus to Eulogius Bishop of Alexandria Vestra beatitudo mihi loquitur diceÌ„s sicut iussistis quod verbuÌ„ iussionis peto à meo auditu remouete quia scio quis sum qui estis Loco enim mihi fratres estis moribus patres NoÌ„ ergo iussi sed quae vtilia visa sunt iudicare curauâ— Your blessednes in your letters saith to me as you coÌ„maÌ„ded which word of coÌ„maÌ„ding I beseech you remoue froÌ„ mine eares because I know who I am what you are In calling you are brethreÌ„ to me in behauior fathers I did not theÌ„ coÌ„mand you but aduertise you what semed best to me The same Greg. teacheth you what it is for any one man to require vniuersall subiection of the whole church as your holie father now doth If Paul saith he would not haue the meÌ„bers of the Lords body to be subiect to any heads but to Christ no not to the Apostles themselues what wilt thou answere to Christ the head of the vniuersall church in the last daie of iudgement which goest about to haue all his members in subiection to thee by the
maners for that is his maine restriction and not euery custome which in time to come might or should happily bee newly deuised by some partes or members of the church but such as the whole church far neere without contradiction retained then when he spake as descending from the Apostles or Apostolike men And so the word hodie doth import though your Monkes haue left out the first syllable written die for hodie as the course of the sentence doth plainly declare If then to dispute whether the ancient custome of the vniuersall church may be altered be madnes yea most insolent madnes what degree of phrensie wil fal to your lot that erect desend a particular late growen custome against the plaine precept of God himselfe against the Apostles prescription against the generall ancient vsage of Christs church yea against the nature of man true intent of your own seruice which you would seeme to make most account of Phi. All this is vntrue Theo. Bethinke your selfe better and you shall finde it truer than you would wish Phi. Had euer any Nation their church-seruice in a barbarous tongue before our time Theo. Make you that such a wonder which your own friends confesse was so common in the primatiue church Lyra saith In primatiua ecclesia benedictiones caetera coīa or else leauing out the c which seemeth to be added by the negligence of the Printer oīa siebant in vulgari In the primatiue church blessings and al other or other common praiers were made in the vulgar toung which the people vnderstood Eckius saith Non negamus tamen Indis Australibus permissum vt in lingua sua rem diuinam facerent quod clerus eorum hodie obseruat We deny not but the south Indians were suffered in the primatiue church to haue their diuine seruice in their mother toung which is neither Greeke Hebrew nor Latine which also their clergy at this day obserueth An other of your friends saith of the Moscouits Totū sacrū seu Missa Gētili ac vernacula lingua apudillos peragi solet The whole seruice or masse is said with thē in their natiue mother toūg The epi. also the Gospel of the daie are read to the people with a loud voice out of the chācel for their better vnderstāding Pet. Belloni saith As many as are presēt with the priest singing masse Armenia answere him in the Armenian tongue For all that stand by vnderstand the Armenian tongue which the Priest vseth in his seruice Phi. These bee schismaticall and disordered Churches Theo. In deede they know no part of your holy Fathers religion nor dominion Yet are they Christians and neerer the truth by many degrees than the church of Rome It is no schisme to bee free from him to whom they were neuer subiect and some obseruances though they haue which are both superstitious and erronious yet that is no reason to dispraise them in that wherein they followe the example of the true and sincere church of Christ and retaine that custome which they receiued from the beginning Phi. Wee may dislike them for this aswell as you may for other thinges Theo. Whether you like them or no so they doe and so haue they doone euer since they were planted in Christ euen to this our age And this their constancie you can not dislike but you must also dislike the Apostle that first taught it the primatiue church that continued it and adiudged it to bee necessary yea your holy Father himselfe that not onely would permit it when he was requested but strictly commaunde it when it was not asked Cyrillus that conuerted the people of Russia and Morauia made request to the Bishop of Rome as Pope Pius the second reporteth that hee might vse the Sclauon tongue in saying diuine Seruice to them whom hee had baptized And when the matter came to bee handled in the sacred Senate or councell chamber a number contradicting it he saith there was heard a voice as it were from heauen speaking these wordes Let euerie spirite praise the Lord and euerie tongue confesse him and that vpon the hearing thereof Cyrillus had his petition The blindnes of your holy father and his Cardinals was reproued by a voice from heauen for hauing their Seruice in an vnknowen tongue and yet you beare men in hand to dislike the late custome of your Romish Synagogue or so much as to dispute thereof as if it were not to be done is insolent madnesse Innocentius though hee were the first that brought Transubstantiation Auricular confession and deposition of Princes to bee confirmed in open councell 1215. yeares after Christ yet durst he not binde the West church to the Latine seruice throughout as you doe but gaue streit charge rather to the contrary that such as were of diuerse languages shoulde haue the praiers and sacramentes of the church in their seuerall and sundry rites and tongues as appeareth in the councell of Lateran assembled vnder Innocentius the thirde of that name Because in many places within the same citie Diocese there be mingled people of diuerse toungs hauing vnder one faith sundry rites customes we straitly commaund that the Bishops of such cities Dioceses prouide fit men which may celebrate diuine seruice and minister the church Sacramēts vnto them according to the diuersities of their rites lāguages Phi. In diuerse toūgs he saith they shal haue their seruice but not in any barbarous tongue Theo. And he that saith they shal haue their seruice in diuerse tongues confesseth there were more tongues vsed in the West church than one and taking order that seruice should be said vnto them according to the diuersities of their tongues he saw some cause why the people should vnderstand what was said in the church and if that be needfull or expedient for one nation why not for other in like manner And yet I see no restraint in the wordes but that the Moscouites Morauians others were prouided for by this Canon to haue the church seruice in their proper and natiue tongue as well as the Grecians Phi. If it were so we account it lawful for that the church of Rome did permit it Theo. Then do we account our seruice in the English tongue much more lawful chiefly for that it is warrāted by the word of God as I haue shewed and secondly for that it wanteth not the generall vse and order of Christes church in her sincerest and purest state to confirme the same Phi. Haue you the generall and ancient custom of Christes church to insure your seruice in the english tongue Theo. Wee haue for that tongue which the people vnderstand be it English Scottish or what other speech you will Phi. That any Nation praied in a barbarous tongue you haue no president in the Primatiue church Theo. This is not the first time that your teeth could not rule your tongue The
displacing the truth and maintaining falsehood vpon the Priestes warrant Phi. Let Princes ioyne themselues to the Church they can not mistake Theo. Shal they trust euery sect that claimeth to be the church or must they learn to know the true church of Christ from the counterfait Phi. The Church is soone knowen Theo. Not so soone as you thinke But we slip from our matter How Princes must be directed to light on truth is an other and the next question we be now discussing their authoritie to commaund for truth not their abilitie to discerne the truth and as far as I coniecture by your speaches you be loth to graunt that Princes may defende or assist the truth were it neuer so well knowen to bee the vndoubted truth of Christes church Phi. Yes we graunt they should defend the faith assist the church but we would haue them not go beyonde their calling Theo. No more woulde wee but the wordes of Osius as you presse them infer that Princes may not so much as meddle with defending the faith or assisting the church of Christ by their Princely power which euerteth as well your opinioÌ„ as ours If you will haue these wordes Meddle not in causes Ecclesiasticall to be taken as they lie without restriction ergo Princes must not meddle neither in word nor deede with the defending nor impugning the faith or church of Christ. And this you see were no sober perswasion but a franticke conclusion wrested out of Osius wordes against his meaning against all truth and your owne confession Who in his right wittes will saie to kings take you no care who defendeth or impugneth the church of Christ in your realmes let it not pertaine to you who list to bee religious or sacriligious in your kingdoms The actes of Constantine the Lawes of Iustinian the chapters of Charles the stories of the church the Scriptures themselues do clearly conuince that the best and most famous Princes haue medled in Ecclesiasticall matters the office and oth of a Prince as anon you shall heare require the same your own assertion is that Princes ought to defend the faith and assist the church and that they can not doe without medling in Ecclesiasticall matters Now choose whether you will thwart the whole church of God and disproue your own doctrine or else limit the wordes of Osius as we do by the particulars that moued him to reproue Constantius for his immoderate presumption The generall is absurd and refuteth your intention as well as ours for you would haue Princes medle with the publishing assisting and executing of your pleasures and iudgementes and wee would haue them yeelde that seruice to Christ and his truth which you chalenge to your selues the limitation let it be what it will agreeable to the circumstances can not hurt vs. Medle not in causes Ecclesiasticall in such sort as thou doest which rebuketh his tyrannie medle not neither appoint vs what wee shall doe that is medle not with appointing and directing vs in these thinges but learne them rather of vs which represseth his insolencie Ne te misceas ecclesiasticis thrust not thy selfe into those thinges which belong to the Priestes and not to the Princes charge which is Osius owne distinction or else ne te misceas interpose not thy self that is thy resolute will and power to commaund compell vs to subscribe against Athanasius an innocent and to communicate with Arians condemned heretikes which were the two points that Constantius exacted of Osius All these constructions import that Constantius medled in that sort and with those thinges that he should not but they doe not exclude Princes from establishing the truth punishing sacrileges schisms and heresies which is medling with matters ecclesiasticall Phi. Leontius is as earnest against him as Osius I maruell saith hee to Constantius thy vocation being for other thinges thou medlest with these matters Thy charge is of ciuill and martiall affaires onely and yet thou wilt needes be president of Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. I maruell that professing to seeke a truth you be not ashamed to temper and alter your witnesses in this sort You cut off the first part that would expound the whole and the latter you wilfully corrupt to force it to your purpose The place of Suidas is this Constantius at a time sitting chiefe among the Bishops and going about to set them orders for their churches the most part receiued with applause and admiration whatsoeuer he saide affirming it to bee most excellently spoken Leontius helde his peace whom when the Emperour asked why doest thou onely of all the rest keepe silence I maruel saith Leontius that hauing charge for other thinges thou entrest into these matters and that being appointed ouer the campe and common-wealth thou prescribeth to the Bishops those thinges which belong onely to Bishops In steede of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you say Thy charge is of ciuill and martiall affaires onely that word onely is your owne and not your Authors and so be the rest that follow Thou wilt needes be president of Ecclesiastical causes Leontius saide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thou prescribest vnto Bishops those thinges which belong onely to Bishops This is no good dealing with Fathers to forge them and frame them to your fansies Leontius had some reason to say as he did Constantius was sitting chiefe among the Bishops prescribing them rules and orders for their churches in thinges that were both beyond his cunning and besides his calling What things those were the story doth not expresse but saith such things as belonged onely to Bishops Now why should not Leontius thinke that Princes in some thinges had no skill to direct Bishops neither might prescribe what rules and orders they listed for the churches of God And yet your author is not ancient that reporteth this Suidas liued twelue hundred yeares after Christ a man learned but of very late time and far from the credit of antiquitie Leontius himselfe if all be true that Suidas writeth of him had no more discretion than needed For when the Empresse sent to speake with him he returned this answere If thou wilt haue me come to thee let mee haue the reuerence due to Bishoppes that when I come in thou by and by descend from thy throne and reuerently meete me and submit thy head vnder my handes to receiue my blessing and then will I sit and thou shalt stand manerly by and not offer to sit till I bid thee If these couenantes please thee I wil come A high point of diuinitie that a subiect will not come to his Prince but on these saueâ—ie conditions Such fables you seeke to further your cause and yet all wil not helpe Phi. I trust you wil make more account of Hilarie whose words are these We beseech thy clemencie to prouide that charge be giuen to al iudges of prouinces that hereafter they presume not nor vsurp the hearing of
the time long the Princes wise the factes knowen the Church of Christ honoured and obeyed those decrees It is no doubtfull question but a manifest trueth that the best Princes before Christ and after Christ for many yeares medled with the reformation of the Church and prescribed lawes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall S. Augustine accompteth them not vsurpers as you doe but happie Princes that imployed their authoritie to delate and spreade the true worshippe of God as much as they coulde and auoucheth plainely that God him-selfe speaketh and commaundeth by the mouthes and heartes of Princes when they commaunde in matters of Religion that which is good and whosoeuer resisteth their Ecclesiasticall Lawes made for trueth shall bee grieuouslie plagued at Gods handes Imperatores felices dicimus si suam potestatem ad DEI cultum maximè dilatandum maiestatis eius famulam faciunt Wee count Princes blessed if they bende their power to doe God seruice for the spreading of his true worshippe as much as they can Hoc iubent imperatores quod iubet Christus quia cum bonum iubent per illos non iubet nisi Christus Emperours commaunde the selfe-same that Christ doeth because when they commaunde that which is good it is Christ him-selfe that commaundeth by them And â— little after Attendite qua manifestissima veritate per cor regis quod in manu Dei est ipse Deus dixerat inista ipsa lege quam contra vos prolatam dicitis Marke yee with howe manifest trueth by the Kinges heart which is in Gods hande GOD himselfe spake in that verie Lawe which you saie was made against you And therefore hee concludeth Quicunque legibus Impâ—ratorum quae pro Dei veritate feruntur obtemporare non vult grande acquirit supplicium Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Princes which are made for the truth of God is sure to beare an heauie iudgement The Princes themselues will teach you that by their power they may by their charge they should medle with matters Ecclesiasticall The authority of our lawes saith Iustinian disposeth diuine and humane thinges Thence is it that we take greatest care for the true religion of God and honest conuersation of Priestes So likewise Theodosius and Valentinian Ea quae circa Catholicam fidem vel ordinauit antiquit as vel parentum nostrorum authoritas religiosa constituit vel nostra Serenitas roborauit nouella superstitione remota integra inuiolata custodire praecipimus Those thinges which ancient Princes haue ordained or the religious authoritie of our Progenitours decreed or our highnesse established concerning the catholike faith wee commaund you to keepe them firme and inuiolable all latter superstition remoued And this they recken to be the first part of their Princely charge Inter caeteras sollicitudines quas amor publicus peruigili nobis cogitatione indixit praecipuam Imperatoriae maiestatis curam esse praecipimus verae religionis indaginem Among the rest of those dueties which the common-wealth exacteth at our handes we perceiue the inquirie of true religion should be the chiefest care of our Princely calling Valentinian the elder though at first hee refused to deale with profound questions of religion yet after hee was content to enterpose his authoritie with others and to commaund that the faith of the Trinitie should be rightly preached the Sacrament of Baptisme by no meanes doubled The blessed Bishops saith he with Valens Gratian haue made demonstration that the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost be a Trinitie coessentiall nostra potentia eandem praedicari mandauit and our power hath commaunded the same truth to be preached And againe The bishop which shall reiterate holy Baptisme we count vnworthy of his place For wee condemne their error which treading the Apostolike preceptes vnder their feete doe not clense but rather defile those with a second washing that are once alreadie baptized Zeno seeking to reconcile the Bishops Clerkes Monkes and people of Egypt and Alexandria to the Nicene faith beginneth with these wordes For so much as wee know that onely faith which is right and syncere to bee the grounde staie strength and inuincible defence of our Empire wee haue alwaies emploied our desires endeuours and lawes that thereby wee might multiplie the holie Catholike and Apostolike church the perpetuall and vndefiled mother of our Scepter And Iustinus nephewe to Iustinian writing a publike Edict to all Christians concerning manie pointes of true Religion maketh his conclusion with these wordes Omnes eos qui contraria hijsce vel sentiunt vel sensuri sunt Anathemate damnamus alienos à sancta Dei Catholica Apostolica Ecclesia iudicamus Wee condemne them all as accursed that presentlie doe or hereafter shall thinke contrarie to these things we adiudge to haue no part in the holy Catholike and Apostolike Church of God This care to prouide and power to commaund for matters of religioÌ„ Princes as well in this realme as els where continued a thousand yeres after Christ. The Bishop of Rome himselfe 850 yeres after Christ promiseth all kind of obedience to the chapters and lawes ecclesiasticall of Lotharius his ancestours In Greece the Emperours lost not their authoritie to call Councels and establish trueth till they lost Empire and all More than thirtine hundred yeres after Christ Nicephorus highly commendeth a Greeke Emperour for his labors and endeuours in the Church affaires You haue saith he to the Prince restored the Catholike and vniuersal Church to her auncient state that was troubled with nouelties impure and vnsound doctrine you haue banished from her you haue purged the temple from heretikes that were corrupters and deprauers of heauenly doctrine not so much with a three corded whippe as with the worde of trueth You haue established the faith and made constitutions for it you haue walled about true godlines with mightie defences you haue repaired that which was ruinous Priestly vnction decaied you haue made purer than gold and by lawes and letters taught them sobriety of life and contempt of mony Wherefore their order is now sacred in the common wealth which in former times was degenerated infected with corruption of discipline and manners Yea when you sawe our true religion brought in danger by false and absurd doctrines you did most zealously and most wisely vndertake the defence of it And knowing very well that piety of it selfe the diligent care of Gods causes are the surest proppes of an Empire you tooke a diuine and passing wise course For by medling with these matters of religion you wanne great thankes of God and gaue him iust cause to bee fauorable to your praiers to direct al your doings and confirme and setle the Empire in your hands Canutus a King of this land not full 32 yeres before the conquest apparently proueth that Princes kept their authoritie to commaund for matters of religion more than a
and our lawes If either side mislike the cause shal deuolue to the Patriarke of the Prouince and he shall end it by the direction of the Canons and our lawes Clerks we permit none to bee made except they be lettered of a right faith honest conuersation haue neither Concubine nor bastardes but such as either be single men or had or haue one lawful wife and her the first no widowe nor diuorced woman nor otherwise interdicted by the lawes or Canons A Priest wee will not haue made vnder the age of fiue and thirtie neither a Deacon or Subdeacon vnder the age of fiue and twentie neither a Reader vnder eighteene A woman shall not bee admitted to serue the Church that is vnder fourtie or hath beene twise maried Many skore precepts besides these that I recken shall you finde in that constitution touching persons and causes ecclesiasticall with these words Volumus sancimus iubemus Wee wil decree commaund and other verbes equiualent prescribing directly to Bishops what order and course they shall keepe for the seemely regiment of Christes Church By the commandement of Iustinus vncle to Iustinian the Councell of Chalcedon was preached and established through the most holy Churches And by the commandement of an other Iustinus his nephew was Gregorie called from Mount Sina to be chiefe Bishoppe of Antioch next after Anastasius whom the Prince remoued from his seate for wasting the Church treasures Leo the successor and Anthemius that maried the daughter of Martian gaue forth this commandement Let no man be made a Bishop for intreatie or for mony If any man be detected to haue gotteÌ„ the seate of a bishop by rewards or to haue taken any thing for the electing or ordering of others let him be accused as for a publike crime and an offence committed against the state repelled from his priestly degree And we adiudge him not only to be depriued for euer of that honor but also to be condeÌ„ned to perpetual infamie And the same princes by their Edict more general We decree say they that those thinges which were in sort done against the Lord himselfe of true religion being abrogated and vtterly abolished al things be restoared againe to their former condition and order in which they were established before our times as well touching the points of christian faith as touching the state of the most sacred churches Martyrs chappels Al innouations in the time of this tyrannie against the holy churches their reuerend bishops concerning the right of their Episcopall creations the deposing of any Bishop during those times their prerogatiue to sit before others within Councell or without the priuileges of Metropolitanes and Patriarks al such innouations we say repealed Let the grants CONSTITVTIONS of the godly Princes before vs and likewise ours touching churches chappels of Martyrs Bishops Clerkes and Monkes be kept inuiolable Much more might be sayd but this shal suffice You bring vs one seely mistaken authoritie where Constantius commaunding against right and trueth in a Bishoppes cause was reproued wee bring you if you viewe the precedents well an hundred expresse places and aboue that auncient and religious princes commaunded Bishoppes and Councels in matters of doctrine and discipline and were not reproued but honoured and obeyed in the Church of God Now choose whether you will shew your selues so voyd of al religion reason that you will preferre a single and solitarie text and the same so many wayes answered by vs before the publike and perpetuall practise of the primatiue Church or else acknowledge with vs that Princes for trueth did might commaund Bishoppes and preuent and punish in them as well errors in fayth as other ecclesiasticall crimes and disorders Phi. All this I may graunt and yet your supremacie will not followe Theo. Neuer tell vs what you may doe but what you will doe Deny the premisses if you dare or the consequent if you can Phi. I graunt Princes may commaunde Bishoppes but not what they list which is your opinion Theo. If you may bee the reporter of our doctrines wee shall defende many mad positions leaue your malitious and odious slaunders wee maintaine no such opinion Phi. What doe you then Theo. If you did not range thus besides all order and trueth you should perceiue what wee doe but when wee come to conclude you slide from the matter and fall to your wonted outfacing and wrangling Phi. Doe I not answere directly to that which you aske Theo. For a while you doe but when we come to touch the quicke you start aside and busie the reader with other quarrels Forbeare that till wee come to the sifting of your absurdities and then take your fill In the meane time suffer vs to say what we defend and to know what you assent vnto that the difference betwixt our opinions may be rightly conceiued and the proofes of either part duely considered Phi. With a good will Theo. Doe you then 〈◊〉 for a matter fully proued that auncient kings and Christian Emperours 〈◊〉 â—â—â—maund for trueth as well Priest as people and that they chiefly did and iuâ—â—ly might enterpose their royall power and care for the reformation and correction of errours in fayth abuses in discipline disorders in life and all other ecclesiasticall enormities as appeareth plainely by the publike lawes and acts of Constantine Theodosius Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and other no lesse Godly than worthie Gouernours If the places which I haue brought import not so much refell the particulars I will be of your mind if they doe why stande you so doubtfull as lothe to confesse and yet not able to gainesay the proofes Phi. For trueth I knowe Princes haue commaunded as well Bishops as others and vy their Princely power established and preserued the faith and Canons of Christes Church Theo. And this the sacred Scriptures the learned fathers the stories ecclesiasticall the lawes and monuments of Catholike Princes in the primatiue church of Christ for eight hundred and fiftie yeres doe fairely warrant Phi. They do Theo. And the places that proue this are both innumerable and inexpugnable Phi. The proofes for this point bee pregnant euough Theo. And this is no way repugnant to probabilitie possibilitie reason or nature Phi. It is not Theo. You will not eate these words when you come to the purpose Phi. I will not Theo. And if you were to bee sworne on a booke doe you beleeue in your conscience this which you say to bee true Phi. I doe Theo. Then here I will stay Phi. Haue I not answered directly to your questions Theo. You haue and wee vrge you no farther Phi. What are you the nearer Theo. That shall you now see You make shamefull outcries at the power which we giue to Princes to be supreme Gouernours of their Realmes in al thinges and causes as wel ecclesiastical as temporal as A thing improbable vnreasonable vnnaturall
Eugenius against the Councell of Basil affirmeth plainely Concilium potest errare sicut alias errauit super matrimonium contrahendum inter raptorem raptam dictum Hieronymi melius sentientis postea fuit praelatum statuto Concilij A Councell may erre as otherwise a Councel hath erred about marriage to bee contracted betweene the rauisher and the rauished and the saying of Hierom as being of the sounder opinion was after preferred before the statute of the Councell And your argument that the church should fayle in fayth if councels should erre he reiecteth as friuolous Nec obstat si dicatur quod Concilium non potest errare quia Christus orauit pro ecclesia sua vt non deficeret It hindereth vs litle if it be sayde that a Councell can not erre because Christ prayed for his Church that it shoulde not fayle For though a generall Councell represent the whole vniuersall Church yet to speake trueth the vniuersall Church is not there precisely but by representation because the vniuersall Church consisteth of all the faithfull And this is the Church which can not erre Wherby it is not vnpossible but the true faith of Christ may continue in onely one person Therefore the Church is not sayd to faile nor to erre if the true faith remaine in any one If you woulde bee farther taught that a generall councell is neither the vniuersall church nor representeth the vniuersal church and that it hath erred and may erre we can send you to a marchant of the same stampe that your selues are of where you shall see as much as I say debated and commended with no small brauerie Certum est Concilia non esse vniuersalem Ecclesiam In nullo vniuersalium Conciliorum omnium hoc sibi praesumpsisse Patres inuenient vt dicerent Catholicam se repraesentare ecclesiam praeterquam in hijs quae nunc impugnamus Constantiensi Basiliensi nouissimis It is certaine that Councels are not the vniuersall Church In none of all the general Councels shal you find the fathers to haue arrogated thus much to themselues as to say they represented the catholike church besides these two last councels of Constance and Basil which wee nowe impugne And that general councels may erre no man more resolute than Pighius Neque enim haec sola quae nunc impugnamus Concilia turpiter grauiterque errasse certum est sed alia plurima It is certaine that not onely these Councels of Constance and Basill which we now disproue haue shamefully and absurdly erred but also many others And againe In fidei definitionibus errasse etiam vniuersalia etiam sanctorum Patrum Concilia comperimus Testimonio sunt de vniuersalibus Concilijs inprimus Ariminense vniuersale haud dubie c. Insuper Ephesanum secundum ipsum vniuersale c. testimonio inquam haec sunt errare posse etiam vniuersalia Concilia etiam legitimè congregata We find that generall councels euen of holy fathers haue erred in decrees of fayth For example of generall Councels the Councell of Ariminum vniuersall no doubt and also the second councel of Ephesus and that likewise vniuersall these I say are witnesses that euen generall Councels and those lawfully gathered may erre If Panormitane and Pighius might happily bee ouerseen in empayring the credite of councels S. Augustine was not when he sayde Who can be ignorant that Prouinciall and National Councels yeelde without any stay to the authoritie of generall Councels gathered out of the whole Christian world and that general Councels themselues are often amended the former by the later with Catholike peace and Christian charitie Phi. He saith Plenary councels are amended but not from errors Theo. What needeth amending where no fault is The condition which S. Augustine repeateth in the first indureth to the last Si quid forte a veritate deuiatum est If in ought they swarue from trueth And except that be vnderstood he answereth not the thing which was obiected by the Donatists They opposed Cyprians letters Cyprians iudgement Cyprians Councel in a matter of Doctrine not of Discipline S. Augustine replieth Bishops might be deceiued and so might Councels In what now but in matters of Doctrine Phi. Can you name vs any general coūcel that erred in matters of doctrine Theo. Your owne fellow nameth the Councell of Ariminum and of Ephesus the second besides the Councels of Constance and Basill Phi. I doubt not whether that of Ephesus were a wicked Councell but whether it were general or no. Theo. The Patriarks of Rome Antioch Alexandria Hierusalem Constantinople were called vnto it and present at it with the Bishops of diuerse and sundrie Prouinces as their subscriptions declare which are extant in the Councel of Chalcedon The Bishop of Rome by his Legates as his wont was in other Councels the rest in person and therefore out of question it was no Prouinciall Councel Againe the Emperour that called the Councell in his epistle to the same saith We thinking it not safe that this question of faith should be handled without your sacred Synod and the Bishops of the holy Churches of all places thought it needful that your sanctities should assemble Phi. The Bishops that were present at Ephesus complained after in the Councel of Chalcedon that they were threatned and forced Theo. The greater the disorder that was cōmitted in the Councel the stronger is our argument that Councels may bee miscaried if Bishoppes may be forced they may likewise bee circumuented as they were in the Councell of Ariminum or deceiued in opinion as they were in the Councels of Carthage Constance and Basil by the confession of your deerest friends If all these wayes they may be peruerted when they are assembled ergo they may make both an erronious and iniurious conclusion And for this cause S. Augustine teacheth that ecclesiasticall Iudges may be deceiued in that they be but men and calleth their councels Humane iudgements which may be circumuented and beguiled His wordes be Non igitur debet ecclesia se Christo praeponere cum ille semper veraciter iudicet ecclesiastici autē iudices sicut homines plerumque falluntur The Church may not prefere herselfe before Christ forsomuch as hee alwaies iudgeth rightly and ecclesiasticall iudges as being but men are often deceiued And rehearsing two Episcopall iudgements that passed against the Donatists in the Councels at Rome and Arle hee addeth Sed haec humana iudicia deputentur circumuenire ac falli vel etiam corrumpi potuisse dicantur But let these bee counted the iudgements of men and let it bee said they might either deceiue or be deceiued and perhaps corrupted The like hee sayth of the Councell of Ariminum This is that which the Catholike fathers in the Councell of Nice had established against the Arrian heretikes by authoritie of the trueth and which afterward in the Councel of Ariminum hereticall impietie vnder an
greater part of those which professe christianitie or some speciall places or persons must for euer be directed vnto all truth and preserued from all error this can not be concluded by these wordes Phi. To teach all truth and preserue in truth and from errour the holy Ghost is promised and perfourmed onely to the church and the chiefe gouernour and generall councels thereof Theo. In deede you take vpon you like Gouernors to appoint what the son of God shal meane who must haue the holy Ghost as if the matter were in your hands not in his Phi. Do we take vpon vs to limit the holy Ghost Theo. What else do you when of your owne heades you restraine the words of our Sauior as you liâ—t Phi. As we list Theo. Our Sauiours words are When that spirit of truth commeth he shal teach you al truth This say you is promised perfourmed only to the church the chiefe Gouernor the Pope and generall Councels thereof As if You in S. Iohns Gospel did signifie none but the Pope the chiefe Gouernor and such Bishops as the Pope will admit to his conferences which you call the generall councels of the church and what is this else but to diuide the holy Ghost as you thinke good Phi. The rulers of the church must needs haue the holy Ghost Theo. Meane you all or some Phi. The most part of them Theo. How proue you that to be Christes meaning that the most part of them which can procure themselues miters or rather catch vp Bishoprickes shall be sure of the holy Ghost in such measure that they shall neuer mistake the saith nor any parte thereof Phi. If they should erre the church should erre Theo. You run from bad to worse Your own law wil shew you the falsenes peruersnes of your Rhemish obseruations and expositions Quaero de qua Ecclesia intelligas quod hic dicitur quod non possit errare Side ipso Papa certum est quod Papa errare potest Respondeo Ipsa congregatio fidelium hic dicitur Ecclesia talis Ecclesia non potest non esse I demaund of what church it is ment when it is saide as here that the church can not erre If of the Pope himselfe it is certaine that the Pope may erre I answere the congregatioÌ„ of the faithfull is here called the church and that church can not chose but continue The spirit of truth is not promised to the Pope nor to his councels but to the faithfull whether they be seuered or assembled and they shall not erre that is they shall not perish in errour as the wicked do but shall either be recouered from their errour or find mercy for their ignorance Phi. May the whole church erre Theo. If wee shoulde graunt you that the whole church can not erre to wit that all the faithfull on the earth at one time can not bee deceiued in any necessarie point of faith but that Christ for his promise sake will preserue truth amongest them what is this to the Pope or his Cardinals or Conuenticles to whom you conuey the holy Ghost by inheritance Phi. Neuer delude vs with ifs but tell vs whether you think the whole church may erre or no. Theo. In matters of faith wee thinke it can not Phi. If the church can not er the Gouernors of the church can not The. Leaue trifling and fall to reasoning The whole church can not erre ergo what Phi. Ergo the Pastors Preachers can not erre Theo. Conclude you all or none Phi. To say no Pastour can erre were apparent madnesse Theo. And the next which is all Pastours can not erre doeth you no pleasure For the Bishop of Rome may erre so may the rest of his mitred and twiforked creatures yet many good Pastours and Preachers keepe fast to the faith Howbeit this conclusion doth not follow vpon my confession The whole church I graunt can not er that is all and euery the faithful can not er therefore all Pastours can not er this is no kind of consequeÌ„t For some of the faithful may be directed vnto truth they no pastors nor preachers many preachers may be preserued from errour they no Bishops many Bishops may be kept in the faith and they not assembled a great number of those that be assembled may bee rightly affected and yet not the most part of them and the greater side may be wel disposed and yet not the Bishop of Rome whom you make to be the moderator and guider of all councels And therefore your argument is very childish The whole church can not erre ergo generall councels can not erre and specially the Pope which later part your best friendes haue not onely refuted as false but also detested for incredible and shamefull flatterie Phi. So say you Theo. So say they Alfonsus that wrote bitterly against Luther when he came to this point dealt plainely in these wordes Non credo aliquem esse adeo impudentem Papae assentatorem vt ei tribuere hoâ— velit vt nec errare possit I can not thinke any man to be so impudent a flatterer of the Pope as to attribute this vnto him that he can not er Phi. Alfonsus hath no such words Theo. You say truth Alfonsus now hath not but Alfonsus had those wordes in his former editions And this commendeth your cunning that you can curtaile the writinges of your fellowes leaue out what you list when you new print them Phi. It was his owne correcting in his seconde edition Theo. Whether it was his doing or yours we care not the wordes remaine in the olde Printes to the manifest condemnation of your follie and flatterie in this behalfe And in his new copies though he qualifie his termes hee holdeth flatly the same opinion Omnis homo errare potest in fide etiam sipapa sit Euerie man may erre in faith euen the Pope himselfe And so you heard your owne gloze before affirme It is certaine the Pope may erre The same is confessed by the best of your side both canonistes and diuines Panormitane saith Concilium potest condemnare Papam de haeresi vt in cap. Si Papa Distinct. 40. vbi dicitur quod Papa potest esse haereticus de haeresi iudicari A councell may condemne the Pope of heresie as appeareth in the 40. Distinct. cap. Si Papa Where it is saide that the Pope may be an heretik iudged of heresie Lyra saith Multi summi Pontifices inuenti sunt apostatasse à side Many Popes haue proued apostataes Augustinus de Ancona Papa est deponendus pro haeresi ad CoÌ„ciliuÌ„ spectat PapaÌ„ in haeresi deprehensum condeÌ„nare vel deponere The Pope may be deposed for heresie A couÌ„cel may condemn or depose the Pope deprehended in heresie Antonius Archbishop of Florence Pro haeresi Papa congruè ipso facto
peruert the meaning of Leo and if you did but vnderstand the right course of his reason you would suppresse both his voice and your vaunt for verie shame Phi. He that will trust your sayings shall haue manie false fiers when he should not Theo. And he that will credit your doings shall feele manie quick flames when he would not Phi. You be better at quipping than at answering Theo. You are lothe we should encroch on your common But returne to Leo. Can you tell against whome he wrote Phi. Against such as you are that denied the trueth of Christes bodie and blood in the Sacrament Theo. Were they men without names or names without men Phi. Mock not they were your auncetours Theo. They say it is a wise childe that knoweth his owne father Doe you But in sadnes whome did Leo traduce in that sermon Phil. Mary Eutiches and such like heretikes Theoph. You saie well for Leo nameth him but a litle before in that sermon and against his opinion he reasoneth Philand I am content with that Theoph. What was his error Phi. He denied the trueth of Christes bodie and blood in the Sacrament Theo. Who told you so Phi. I gather it by those that refute him Theo. By them you shall learne his error but this it was not Philan. What was it say you Theo. Eutiches affirmed that Christes humane nature and substance was not onely glorified by his ascension but consumed and turned into the nature immensitie of his Godhead Against him wrate Theodorete Gelasius and others and one of the cheefest argumentes which they bring against him is that which Leo here toucheth in a woorde or two Phi. That argument cleane confoundeth your sacramentarie Sect. Theo. Yours or ours it must needes confound for this it is As the bread and wine after consecration are changed and altered into the bodie and bloud of Christ so is the humane nature of Christ conuerted into his diuine after his resurrection ascension but the bread and wine are not changed neither in substance nor forme nor figure nor naturall proprieties but only in grace and working ergo Christs humane nature is not changed into his diuine EITHER IN SVBSTANCE circumscription or forme but only endewed with glory and immortalitie Phi. This is no Catholike reason but sauoreth altogether of your hereticall poison Theo. They which first framed and vrged this reason against Eutiches in your opinion were they heretikes Phi. No father euer vsed it Theo. If they did must not they be doubbed for heretikes as the first proposers of that reason or at least you for affirming now the quite contrarie For you reiect both their assumption conclusion against Eutiches as starke false and whose ancetour then is Eutiches but yours Phi. They do not vse it as you report it Theo. Looke you offspring of Eutiches whether Gelasius Theodoret and Augustine do not vrge it in those verie pointes and wordes which I repeate Thus Gelasius framed his reason against Eutiches An image or similitude of the bodie and bloud of Christ is celebrated in the action of the mysteries It is therefore apparant and euident enough that we must holde the same opinion of Christ the Lord which we professe celebrate and receiue in his image That as those signes by the working of the holy Ghost passe into the diuine substance and yet remaine in the proprietie of their owne nature Euen so that verie principall mysterie it selfe whose force truth that Image assuredly representeth doth demonstrate one whole and true Christ to continue the two natures of which he consisteth properlie remaining And lest you should not vnderstand what he ment by this The signes still abide in the proprietie of their owne nature he expoundeth himselfe an saith Non desinit esse substantia vel natura panis vini The substance or nature of bread and wine ceaseth not or perisheth not When Theodoret had made an entrance to the very same reason by laying this foundation Oportet archetypum Imaginis esse exemplar the Originall must be answerable to the Image the heretike caught the words out of his mouth and said It hapned in good time that you did mention the diuine mysteries for euen thereby will I prooue the Lordes bodie to be chaunged into an other nature As then the signes of the Lordes bodie and blood are other thinges before the inuocation of the Priest but after they are chaunged and become other than that they were so the Lords bodie after his assumption is chaunged into his diuine substance The maior being good such as Gelasius and Theoderet did both auouch that as the signes were changed after consecration so was Christes humanitie after his assumption if your opinion had then beene taught in the church that the substance of bread and wine were changed by consecration the conclusion had beene infallible for Eutiches error that the substance of Christes humanitie had beene changed by his ascention into his diuinitie and not only both these Fathers had had their mouthes stopped but Eutiches error had beene inâ—olâ—ble as beeing grounded on a Maior that was a confessed and famous trueth and on a Minor that was as you thinke the vndoubted saith of the Church Mary the Minor in deed was apparantly false though you now defend it for Catholike Doctrine and with the plaine deniall of that as a manifest vntrueth Theodoret inferreth the contrarye that because neither the Substance nor naturall proprieties of the bread and wine are chaunged by consecration as the whole Church then beleeued and confessed therefore neither the substance nor shape nor circumscription of Chrisâ—es humane nature were changed by his ascention but his body remaineth in the â—ame substance quantitie and forme that he rose from death and ascended vp withall and with the very same forme and substance of flesh shall come to iudge the worlde These are his wordes Thou art caught saith Theodoret to the heretike with the same nets that thou laiedst for others The mysticall signes after sanctification doe not depart from their own nature For they remanie in their former substance and figure and forme c. Conferre then the Image with the originall and thou shalt see the likenes betweene them For the figure must be like to the trueth That body therefore of christ in heauen hath his former shape and figure circumscription to speake al at once his former substance Lay all your heades together aâ—d graunting the Maior which the whole Church held auoide the conclusion of Eutiches withâ—ut the denying the Minor as Theodoret did which yet is your faith and beleefe at this day and we wil grant you to be Catholiks and our selues heretikes If you cannot see how far you be falleÌ„ from the doctrine of Christs church and that in no lesse point than the greatest and chieâ—esâ— Sacrament on which you haue wickedly founded your adoration oblation halfe communion priuate masse and barbarous prayers without
It is so long since I saw you Philander that I had almost forgotten you I thought I should remember your face but this apparell made me doubt of you Philand Euen he Theophilus and though you haue descried me where I would not be knowen yet I trust for olde acquaintance you meane me no harme Theo. If you be as far from doing euill as I am from wishing you euill I dare warrant you for any hurt you shall haue but what meaneth this strange attire are you wearie of a studients life that you fall to ruffling in your latter daies Phil. Not choice Theophilus but feare driueth me to this I take small pride in going thus disguised Theo. What neede you feare if you be faultlesse true men hide not their heades Phi. Not where truth may take place but where falshood ouer beareth all it is time for true men to hide their heads except they wil loose them Theo. Is your case so desperate that you stand in danger of loosing your head Phil. Not my deserts but the rigour of your lawes giue me iust cause to feare that which so many of our side haue felt Theo. Your frindes neuer felt the least part of that they did to others neither haue they cause to complaine but of too much ease Phil. You haue spoyled them of their goods cast them in prisons among theeues hanged them as traitours call you this ease what could they feele worse what could you do more Theo. Whom meane you the Northren rebels or Irish conspiratours that were thus hardly dealt with Phi. As though you knew not whom I meant Their heads and quarters pitched in rowes on your gates and bridges are to this day witnesses of their constancie and momiments of your cruelty Theo. Though I can gesse you only ean tell whom you meane Belike the Iesuits that lately suffered for Treason Phi. Treason was obiected to them for a colour to make them odious to the people but in deede religion was the very cause why they were condemned for would they haue recanted their faith they should neuer haue bene brought to the barre Theo. It may be Pardon was offered them so they would recant their Trayterous assertion that Popes at their pleasures may depose Princes and discharge their subiects from all obedience which Christian mildnes in seeking their amendment and shewing them so much fauour doth not quite them from the lewdnes of their enterprise The Princes mercy is no proofe of their innocencie But in sadnes Philander are you since your departure become a Iesuite that you take their part so freshly Phi. The question you aske mee is very dangerous considering the straitnes of your lawes Yet promise me that you will not bewray me and I wil be plaine with you what I am I loue not to dissemble much lesse to deny my vocation Theo. Promise me likewise that you wil attempt nothing against your duetie to God and your Soueraigne and I wil do the best I can for your safety Without this condition I may not yeeld to your petition Phi. I require no more but will you performe that Theo. None so deceitfull as those that be most mistrustfull Hauing our former acquaintance for a warrant and my promise now made you for your better securitie why feare you Phi. Blame mee not if I bee somewhat curious in disclosing my selfe life is sweete and that nowe must I put wholly into your hands which is no smale aduenture Theo. Were your life in my hands as it is not you should well perceiue wee delight not in blood Howbeit you cast greater perill than you neede The lawes of this lande doe not touch you so neere for entering the new found order of Iesuits neither for infecting the simple with the leauen of your doctrine but onely for making deuotion a cloke for sedition Leaue your vndermyning the Princes right state by these secrete and suttle meanes I see no daunger of death that is toward you Phi. If I be taken with any practise against the Prince I refuse no kind of torment onely from preaching publishing the Catholique faith I neither can nor wil be drawen Theo. Wel profered if it be wel performed In deed true Christians euer endured neuer displaced Princes no not when they were tyrants heretiques for God is not serued with resisting the sword which himselfe hath ordeyned to cherish the good chasten the bad but with duetiful obedience to Magistrates when their lawes agree with his in case their willes be dissonant from his thē is he serued with meekenes readines to beare and abyde that which earthly powers shall inflict And this was the cause why the Church of Christ alwayes reioyced in the blood of her Martyrs patiently suffering the cruell rage both of Pagans and Arrians and neuer fauoured any tumult of rebelles assembling themselues to withstande authoritie Phi. Tell vs that we knowe not this we neuer doubted of Theo. Then if your late Iesuites were sent hither as Pioners to make ready the way for the Popes bull that should disherite the Prince and giue her crowne to an other what say you were they iustly condemned for Treason or no Phi. You shall neuer be able to proue them sent to that end Theo. I doe not as yet say they were but what if they were doe you thinke them Martyrs or Traytours Phi. I am sure they were not For I my selfe came in the same message with them and knowe what charge was giuen both to them and to me that in no wise we should meddle with matters of state Theo. I thought all this while by the counterfaiting of your apparell and earnest defending of Iesuites that you were of that crewe Phi. You vrge mee so farre that I can not conceale it The truth is I am of their societie and haue so been euer since my last going beyond the Seas and am now sent backe with others to labour the conuersion of this Realme and to reconcile men to the Catholique fayth and Apostolique Sea for the sauing of their soules Theo. I am the more sory for it if sorow would helpe your lighting on them was vnhappy your ioyning with them is vngodly Phi. You do the men great wrong to carie that hard opinion of them without cause for my part I protest I neuer mette with a more religious vertuous and learned company than the Iesuites are Theo. You take light occasions to set forth your owne prayses as if it were a poynt of perfection to commend your selues Phi. Though we striue to excell others in learning and vertue which we lawfully may yet bragge we not of it Theo. You need not The maker of your Apologie doth it for you whose fingers ytched till he came to the comparing and aduancing of himselfe and his fellowes in this insolent manner Our wittes sayth he be of God in as plentifull measure as theirs our foundation in all kinde of faculties requisite
missarum solemnia The like phrase is elsewhere to be found in the workes of S. Austen Post sermonem fit missa Catechumenis After the sermon the Catechists are willed to depart and Ambrose in the same epistle which you quote Post lectiones atque tractatum dimissis Catechumenis After the reading and expounding of the scriptures the Catechists being demised Where these wordes that you sticke on follow Ego mansi in munere missam facere caepi I went forward and sent the rest away that might not bee partakers of the mysteries And that missam facere is not to say masse as you dreame but to giue leaue to depart the very Latine tongue woulde leade you if you were not more than froward and so may you find the word missa in Leo Gregorie and others and yet they no Masse-priests To maintaine your beades Agnusdets and other consecrated creatures you note where S. Austen and Paulinus as familiar friendes sent eche other cakes and where Gregorie gaue some monuments of Peter Paul and others to Princes Bishops for presents This is not answerable to your enterprise you bring vs certaine toyes hallowed as you say with the Popes blessing and where you deliuer them you take promises vowes and othes that such persons shall keepe communion and yeeld subiection to the Bishop of Rome which is nothing els but the slocking of her Maiesties people from her and the deuoting of them their bodies goods and forces to serue the Popes turne That power to forgiue sinnes must bee holden in Capite of the Pope you produce Cyprian who saith no such thing in that place which you cite but only calleth the Church of Rome a principal Church whēce vnitie among priests in former ages did spring and Leo whose priuate affection in aduauncing his Sea doth carie light credit in the iudgement of wise men is farre from a Catholique consent in the iudgement of all men yet if hee meane as Cyprian and Austen doe when they say Exordium ab vnitate proficiscitur vt ecclesia vna monstretur The beginning of this power came from one which was Peter to declare the Church to bee one Et Petrus quando claues accepit ecclesiam sanctam vniuersam significauit ecclesia ergo quae fundatur in Christo claues ab eoregni caelorum accepit in Petro Peter when he receiued the keyes signified the holy and Vniuersall Church for the Church which is built vppon Christ receiued of him the keyes of the kingdome of heauen in Peter If this be his meaning as it may well be we refuse him not and then ab ipso quasi quodam capite must bee from him the first that had it For caput is either the chiefe or the first otherwise that the Apostles held their function and power vnder and of Peter in capite is a false and erroneous sense flatly resisted by S. Paul affirming that they which seemed to bee somewhat as Iames Peter and Iohn bestowed nothing on him and refuted by our Sauiour him selfe where hee sayth As my father sent mee so I not Peter sende you The rest of your authorities be they scriptures or fathers impeach not vs nor our doctrine but are such as we may well admit without any doubt or scruple Your seuenth and last Chapter hath neither text nor title that is any way preiudicial to vs. We grant your allegations deny your applicatiōs Martyrs be glorious witnesses of Gods trueth their death is pretious in his sight but flatter not your selues you be no Martyrs You bend your selues against God and his annoynted in a wicked and desperate quarell receiue your desertes for preparing the subiects of this Realme by colour of religion to take her Maiestie for no Queene when the Pope shall say the word and to be ready to refuse their allegeance and ioyne with any straunger that will inuade the land This is the whole furniture of your Apologie to my knowledge I haue not omitted one place that maketh any thing for you The rest is a fardle of phrases shadowed with faire pretences and plausible perswasiōs fit to preuaile with worldly minds that neuer tasted the trueth which if we should seeke to repell with like maner and order of writing we should but wast paper and wearie the reader and therefore if you list to discusse the Principall intents of your Apologie more exactly than hitherto you haue I will ioyne this issue with you that notwithstanding all you haue sayd or can say you be neither good subiects nor Catholiques If not I will referre the iudgement of your proofes to the learned and leaue you to God Phi. We know our cause to be so good that wee neede not shrinke from any triall Theo. Then take what helpe you can of your Apologie to defend your selues and as wee passe through your chapters obiect you that which you thinke strongest Your vauntes and vanities I will not answere but onely such things as bee most materiall Phi. Content with that Theo. And as occasion is offered I will shewe that you neither obey God nor your Prince Phi. Do what you can we feare you not Theo. If you thinke any thing worth your paynes in your first chapter you were best begin Phi. Haue wee not good cause to finde our selues agreeued that so many strange nations hauing their Churches with freedome to serue God after their manner in our Country onely Catholiques which in our fathers dayes had all for whom and by whome all Churches and Christianitie arose can by no intercession of forraine Potentates nor no sighes nor sorrowes of innumerable most loyall subiects obtayne one place in the whole land to serue their Lord God after the rites of all other good Christian Princes Priests and people of the worlde Theo. If you meane that strangers haue leaue to professe diuers religions in this Realme you wittingly slaunder vs against your owne conscience for in England the people both strange and liege worship God the father in spirite trueth according to the Gospel of his sonne agreeing together in the substance of one fayth and the right order of Christes sacraments onely straungers are suffered in their Churches to vse that tongue which they best vnderstand as S. Paul appointeth and to retaine such ceremonies of their owne as bee neither against faith nor aduerse to good maners and therefore by S. Austens iudgement goe for INDIFFERENT and may bee borne in Christian vnitie without offence or confusion But if this bee your meaning that where straungers haue fréedome to serue God after the same manner that wee doe you should also be licenced to bring in your Masse notwithstanding it be quite repugnant to the seruice of God which this land receiueth Your consequent is more than absurd because their faith and religion agreeth with ours yours is cleane contrarie Next you sorow to see no mediation of friends no threats of foes
self same matter was to folow should with al diligence weigh the cause and those against whom sentence was giuen might cleerely confesse themselues to be condemned not by any faction of the former Iudges but iustly and worthily And if this were an auncient custome and the memorie therof renewed and put in writing by the great Nicene Councell you now will not suffer the same to take place with you trewly you doe an vnseemly thing For no equitie doth alow that a few of you shuld abrogate a custome once receaued in the Church confirmed by so great a Synode yet that being granted you the offence which you take is without al reason for your Legats Macarius and Hesiochus no way able to match those that Athanasius sent but in euery thing conuicted and refuted by them Concilium indici postularunt literasque ad Eusebianos Athanasium Alexandriam quibus conuocarentur mitti vt coram omnibus iusto iudicio de causa cognosci posset tunc enim se de Athanasio probaturos esse quod iam nequirent required a Councell to bee summoned and letters to be sent to the Eusebians and to Athanasius at Alexandria to giue them warning to come that the cause might bee debated before all in an euen and vpright iudgement adding that they would then conuince Athanasius of those things wherin now they failed Yea publikely in our presence Martyrius and Hesichius were confounded Athanasius Priestes readily answering them with great boldnes to say the trueth Martyrius and his side were alwayes put to the worst Ac proinde Concilium generale postulauit And for that cause he requested a generall assemblie of Bishoppes If therefore Martyrius and Hesichius your agents not requiring a Councell I had exhorted you that they which wrote to mee on either side might bee called to a Councell namely in fauour of my brethren which complayned they were oppressed that motion of mine had beene honest and iust for so much as it is acceptable to God agreeable to the Canons but now where those very men whom you counted to be discreete and worthy to be trusted with your message were the first inciters of mee to cal you to a Synode surely you ought not to take that in so ill part By these words these two pointes are more than manifest First that Iulius did not peremptorily commaund them to appeare before him but exhorted them to meete in a lawfull Councell for the better discussing of matters in question Next that for the warning of a Councel which should examine their acts hee pretendeth not his supreme power ouer all the Church nor his Lieutenantship to Christ but groundeth himselfe on their consents which were the chiefe authors of this tragedie and citeth the Nicene Councel agreeing with the auncient vsage of the Church that Synodes might discusse and redresse the wrongs done by Bishoppes Phi. You can not denie but Iulius heard their Legats before the Bishoppes met Theo. I graunt for his better information hee might heare them alone but not to giue iudgement thereof without others so sayth Iulius himselfe Athanasius was neither condemned at Tyrus nor present at Mareota where you proceeded in his absence And you know that the records of those acts bee very suspitious and of no force where one part onely was admitted to proue Yet we though it were so for the more full discussing of the matter did neither preiudice you that wrate against him nor those that wrate for him but exhorted all as many as wrate to present themselues here in iudgement that all thinges might exactly bee skanned in a Synode In the which Synode when the contrary side refused to appeare Athanasius was hearde at large and there receiued to the communion of all the West Church as right Bishoppe of Alexandria notwithstanding his former deposition by the Bishoppes at Antioche and the violent intrusion of an other in his place Phi. This you say but this you proue not Theo. If Athanasius say the same it is proofe sufficient and that you shall heare him say Viton the Priest whom Iulius sent for that purpose brought with him to the councel moe than fiftie Bishops where our defence was admitted and wee counted worthie to bee receiued to their communion and brotherly feast and great indignation kindled against the Eusebians to whome they willed Iulius to write backe in his owne name for that their letters were written to him not to them And so Iulius did putting them to wit which is the thing that you stagger at that although his name were alone to the letters yet the common consent approbation of the Synode wanted not to the matter Notwithstanding saith he that I alone wrate to you yet I wrate the iudgement and opinion not of my selfe onely but of all the Bishops of Italie and of all in these quarters The Bishops met at the time appointed and were of that mynde which I nowe signifie to you againe wherfore though I alone write yet I would haue you knowe that I write the common opinion of them all And his Epistle ended This sayth Athanasius the Synode at Rome wrate by Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that all this while Iulius did nothing of himselfe without a Synode neither did hee or the Synode challenge any superioritie ouer the East Bishops but rather an equalitie with them and for that cause might require to see the reason of their doings against Athanasius before they would reiect him as no Bishop and communicate with Gregorie that was placed in his seate And so much the East Bishops should haue doone without asking For where a prouinciall Synode bindeth no man out of the same Prouince they were by the discipline and custome of the Church to sende their letters to the Bishops of euery Prouince namely to the chiefest and to expect the general consent of their brethren before they proceeded to the deposition of a Bishop and so great Bishoppe as the Patriarke of Alexandria was which is the thing that Iulius vrgeth them with Si vt dicitis omnino in culpa fuerunt oportuit secundum Canonem non isto modo iudicium fieri oportuit scribere omnibus nobis vt ita ab omnibus quod iustum esset decerneretur Episcopi enim erant non vulgares ecclesiae qui ista patiebantur If as you pretend they were guiltie in deede yet iudgement should haue gone forwarde according to the Canon of the Church and not after this strange sort you should haue written to vs all that that which had been iust might haue been determined by all For they were Bishops and no meane Churches that were thus vsed By this you see that in ayding and helping Athanasius the Bishop of Rome did neither by worde nor deed take vpon him to be vicar generall to Christ on earth nor supreme iudge of all men and matters in the Church as nowe he doeth but claymeth rather
Rome complayning what the Arians had done at Alexandria requesting at his hands the true copie of those seuentie Canons neuer remembring howe fond and foolish a fable this would be when it shoulde come to skanning and howe substantially the Bishoppes of Aphrica went to worke when this title was first pretended Phi. Doth not Iulius in his Epistle to the East Bishops repeate 27. Canons of the Nicene Councell more than our copies haue sixe of them clearer for the Popes authoritie than that which Sozimus alleadged Theo. You come in with your decretals as if they were some worthie monuments But Sirs the more you forge the lesse you gaine All the decretals you haue will not counteruaile the reason which S. Austen and the rest make to Bonifacius Quis dubitet exemplaria esse verissima Nicenae Synodi quae de tam diuersis locis de nobilibus Graecis ecclesijs adlata comparata concordat Who can doubt those copies of the Nicene Councell to be most true which being brought from so many places from the noble Churches of Greece agree when they bee compared The letters of Marcus and Iulius framed in corners and founde at Rome light of credite and full of lies are not able to frustrate the great paynes and good meanes which the Bishops of Africa bestowed and vsed in searching the trueth They had their owne bookes which were many both in Greeke and Latine they had the very copie which Coecilianus Bishoppe of Carthage that was present and subscribed in the Councell of Nice brought with him from thence they had a faithful transcript from the Churches of Alexandria and Constantinople out of their originall recordes These three copies so many thousande miles asunder and euery one of them Authentike when they were brought together and compared did word for worde agree with themselues and with the bookes that were in euery mans priuate keeping If that be not enough Ruffinus that liued in Italie and wrate in the dayes of Theodosius the elder before this matter came in question published in his Latine historie to the eyes of all men the very same number and order of the Nicene Canons which the Councell of Africa followed Yea the Bishops of Rome themselues Bonifacius and Coelestinus to whom this answere was made neuer replied neuer vrged nor offered any mo Canons than these twentie which were sent from other places though the cause required and the time serued to bring forth their seuentie Canons as well for Sozimus discharge as their owne interest authoritie which was then not only doubted but also resisted Besides this your assertion of seuentie Canons what a peeuish and senselesse fable it is Howe coulde all the true copies of the Nicene Councell throughout the worlde bee consumed and destroyed within three score yeeres and no man mislike it no man perceiue it no man report it Or howe coulde fiftie Canons bee suddenly lost and euery where twentie left in faire and Authentike writings Why would the Arians for they must bee the doers of it wreake their malice on those Canons that did not touch them and spare the Nicene creede Epistle written to the Church of Alexandria which directly condemned their impietie Nay why did the church of Rome suffer those 50. Canons to perish that made most for her prerogatiue and kept these twentie safe which rather restraine than enlarge her authoritie Phi. Trust you not Athanasius that was present when the Canons were made Theo. I trust him well but I trust not your shuffeling in what you list vnder his name Your forged Athanasius is soone disproued For if Iulius were Bishop of Rome when the Councell of Nice was called as Sozomene Bede doe witnes how could Athanasius write to Marcus next before Iulius that the Canons of the Councell of Nice were burnt Were the Canons burnt trow you before they were made Againe though al men did not allow the decrees of the Nicene Councel yet whiles Constantine liued no man saith Sozomene durst openly and plainely refuse them much lesse burne them in a furious publike tumult And what if Athanasius were not then néere Aegypt when Marcus wrate this solemne Epistle will you neuer bee weaned from these foolish forgeries Marcus letter beareth date decimo calendas Nouembris Nepotiano Secundo Consulibus the 21. of October Nepotianus and Secundus being Consuls which was the later end of the 30. yere of Constantines raigne Nowe all that yeere was Athanasius kept from Aegypt at the Councel of Tyrus without returning home fled to Constantinople where he stayed till hee was banished into Fraunce Neither was there any such persecution in Aegypt that yere or any time before vnder Constantine as this Epistle doth specifie but a great while after vnder Constantius when Marcus was dead and rotten And to conclude if the copie which Athanasius brought with him from Nice were burnt by the Arians in his time as his letter to Marcus importeth howe coulde Cyril that came long after him find an Authentike copie in the same Church as his words inferre to the Councell of Africa Phi. Marcus Epistle might be suspected if Iulius letter did not affirme the same Theo. Iulius Epistle is a right paterne of your Romish recordes For there besides impudent forgerie you shall find wilfull periurie Phi. Why so Theo. Your counterfayte Iulius is not content to forge Canons but hee byndeth thē also with an othe Verū me dixisse testis est diuinitas god is my witnes that I speake trueth Phi. You should the rather beleeue him Theo. Beleeue him As though the right and true rescript of Iulius to the Synode of Antioche were not set downe by Athanasius himselfe in his seconde Apologie to the manifest detection of your shamelesse forging and forswearing Compare that letter with this and you will blush to see the Church of Rome so fowlely ouershot And yet were there no such thing extant this blind decretall doth conuict it selfe For it beareth date the first of Nouember Felicianus and his fellow being Consuls which was the very yere that Constantine the great died Now the councel of Antioch y◠deposed Athanasius to the which Iulius wrate was gathered by Constantius the fift yere after Constantines death and so this answere to the councel of Antioch was written fiue yeres before there was any such councel assembled Again Iulius himself sayth in his Epistle to those of Antioch that Athanasius stayed at Rome with him one whole yere sixe moneths expecting their presēce after they were cited by his first letters to shew the reason of their proceeding against Athanasius these two decretals of Iulius which you bring vs beare date iust 31. dayes asunder in which tune you can not go from Rome to Antioch returne with an answere except you get you wings And so notwithstanding your shifts deuises to cloke
your owne fellowes haue reported lamented in no worse than the fountaines of your faith and heads of your Church I wil not say the refues of England but euen the Priests of Baal and Bacchus were Saints in comparison of so lewd and intolerable monsters Stephanus the sixt and Sergius the third pulled Formosus their predecessor out of his graue the one cutting off his fingers the other his head and cast his carkas into Tybris Iohn the twelfth gaue orders in a stable amongst his horses abused his fathers concubine made his pallace a stues put out his Ghostly fathers eyes gelded one of his Cardinals ranne about in armes to set howses on fiar drank to the diuel and at dise called for help of Iupiter and Venus Boniface the seuenth getting the Popedom by il meanes robbed Saint Peters church of al the Iewels pretious things he could find ranne his waies returning not long after caught one of his Cardinals put out his eies Syluester the seconde leauing his Monasterie betooke himselfe wholly to the diuel by whose help he gate to be Pope on this condition that after his death he should be the diuels both bodie and soule Benedict the ninth sold his Popedome to Gregorie the sixt and was therefore worthily blamed of all men and by Gods iudgement condemned For it is certaine that after his death he appeared in an ougly shape with the head and taile of an asse the body of a beare and being asked what that horrible sight ment because saith he whiles I was Pope I liued like a beast without law without reason defiling the Chaire of Peter with al kind of lewdnes Of Gregorie the seuenth and his adherents Beno the cardinal writeth thus Let these hypocrites hold their peace that haue disgraced almost drouned the name of blessed Peter by cloking the flames of their malice vnder a colour of Catholicisme pretēce of iustice Let these false prophets be astonished that are curteous in shew scorpiōs in sting wolues vnder lambs skinnes killing the bodies deuouring the soules of men with the sword of their mouth whose religion sauoureth nothing but of traiterousnes and couetousnes entring the houses of widowes they lead women captiues that bee loden with sinnes and by reason of our troublesome times giue eare to spirits of error and doctrines of diuels which Hildebrand their captain learned of his maisters Benedict the ninth and Gregorie the sixt Gregorie the ninth as Vrspergensis cōplaineth taking occasion by the Emperours absence that was fighting against the Turke sent a great armie into Apulia and inuaded subdued the Emperours dominions being thē in the seruice of Christ a fact most hainous and did his best both in Apulia and Lumbardie to hinder such as were going that viage from passing the Sea seeking thereby to betray the Christian Emperour his armie to the Turke Yea the men of Verona Millan would suffer none to passe by their coasts spoyling the very souldiers that were sent to fight against the Turke and that by the cōmandement of the Pope as they affirmed which alas is horrible to be spoken Who rightly considering wil not lament and detest these things as portending and foreshewing the ruine of the Church Mathewe Paris giueth Innocentius the 3. this commendation King Iohn saith he knew and by often experience had tried that the Pope aboue al mortal men was ambitious and proude an vnsatiable thirster after money and easie to be drawen and induced to all wickednes by gifts or promises Sixtus the fourth made his playfelow Cardinal who was wont to weare cloth of gold at home in his house to ease nature in stooles of siluer and to deck his harlot Tiresia with shoes couered with pearle as Agrippa reporteth he built a sumpteous stewes in Rome appointing it to be both masculine and feminine and making a gaine of that beastly trade As Vuesselus Gronnigensis sayth he gaue the whole familie of the Cardinal of S. Luce free leaue in Iune Iulie August to vse that which nature abhorreth God in Sodome reuenged with fire and brimstone One of your owne side perceiuing the lothsomnes of his life maketh the diuel giue him this entertaynment in hell At tu implume caput cui tanta licentia quondam Femineos fuit in coitus tua furta putabas Hic quoque praetextu mitrae impunita relinqui Sic meruit tua faeda venus sic prodigia in omnem Nequitiam ad virtutis opus tua auara libido But thou thou bauld pate which hast so licentiously defiled thy self with women didst thou thinke thy secrete sinnes by reason of thy myter shoulde here goe vnpunished Receiue the rewarde of thy filthie pastimes so hath thine outragious lust to all lewdnes and voyde of all goodnes deserued It is too shameful that Iohannes Iouianus Pontanus writeth of Lucretia the daughter of Alexander the sixt Hoc tumulo dormit Lucretia nomine sedre Thais Alexandri filia sponsa nurus Here lyeth Lucretia in name in deede a shamelesse whore the daughter of Pope Alexander her fathers brothers harlot The fact so horrible that it were not credible if others did not confirme the same I will trouble chast eares no longer with this vnsauory repetition These disorders of Popes if you weigh them well be more than scandalous giue you smal cause to vaunt of your vertues Phi. These be the things that we told you were more false than Esops fables Theo. It were reason you shoulde proue them false before you reiect them as fables men of your owne sect and side laying thē down for truths in their writings you may not now take vpō you to pronounce them fables lest your credite be called in question your selues reputed to bee worse than lyars These things be they true bee they false wee report them as we find them in your owne stories not your aduersaries but your welwillers were the first autors of them And vnlesse wee see some surer ground than your bare deniall we may better charge you with open flatterie than you may them with wilful forgerie Phi. The number is not great though y◠matters were true Theo. The rest of their outrages if I would recken namely their schismes cōtentions tumults for the Popedom their ambition presumption oppression briberie periurie tyrannie pride craft hypocrisie to conclude their garboyles battailes and bloodshed an whole volume would not suffice And where you make your Clergie so free from scandals heare what men of former times and of your owne side haue spoken and written of your Bishops Priests Monkes and others Bernard of his age Behold saith he these times very much defiled with the worke that walketh in darknes Wo bee to this generation because of the leauen of Pharisees which is hypocrisie If it may be called hypocrisie which is now so rife that it can not and so shamelesse that
Ecclesiasticall Lawes for 800. yeares and vpward answereth the Iesuites authorities and absurdities heaped against the Princes regiment searcheth the safest way for the Princes direction in matters of Religion and concludeth the Pope in doubts of doctrine to be no sufficient nor superiour Iudge Phi. FIRST then whereas in the Proclamation we be charged to liue contrary to the lawes of God the Realme c. We answere that if the lawes of God the lawes of the Realme did alwaies consent concur in deed as in this clause other cōmon writings speeches proceeding frō autority they be lightly in words couched togither against vs hardly could wee defende our doctrines and doings frō error vnduetifulnes towards our prince But seeing the lawes of kings and Countries are not euer consonant but may be contrary to Gods commandements we may iustly mislike the one without disloyalty to the other When Emperours saith Augustine be in errour they make lawes for their errour against the truth by which iust men are tried crowned for not doing that which they command because God forbiddeth it Theo. That some princes haue made lawes against God his truth is a case so cleare that it needed no proofe as also that wee must rather obey God than men when their lawes do swarue frō his again on the other side that princes haue made lawes for the true seruice worship of God did rightly iudge it to be a part of their charge that all they which resist those lawes shal be grieuously punished at Gods hands though you craftily dissemble you can not deny S. Austen in this very place which you bring for your defence the very next words wil tel you so much Quando autē Imperatores veritatem tenent pro ipsa veritate contra errorē iubent quod quisquis contempserit ipse sibi iudicium acquirit When Emperors hold the truth they cōmand for truth against error which cōmādement whosoeuer despiseth he purchaseth to himselfe iudgement For he shal be punished by mē haue no part with God for not doing that which truth it selfe by the kings hart commanded him These words you did wel to cut off they were enough to mar your market Phi. Not ours The. Wil you thē cōfesse that princes may commād for truth against error that whosoeuer despiseth their commandement in those cases shal incur iudgement So saith S. Austen in plaine wordes Phi. They may commaund mary the Church must appoint them what they shall commaund Theo. What mean you by the Church Phi. What should I meane by the Church but the church Theo You loue to play with wordes Mean you laimen or priests or both Phi. Euer heard you the church taken for laimen The. When S. Paul sent for the elders of Ephesus willed them to take heed to themselues the whole slocke ouer which the holy Ghost had placed them to rule or feed the Church of God what ment hee by the Church the Priestes to whom he spake or the people Phi. There you see the Priestes are to rule the Church Theo. There also you may see the Church is not to rule the Prince Phi. How doth that follow Theo. The Church is there taken for the people which must not rule but obey the Prince Phi. By the Church in my first answere I ment the Priestes and not the people Theo. Can you shew where the Church in all the Scriptures is takē for the Priests without the people Phi. We call them only Churchmen Theo. We respect not your abuse but the right vse of the word The Church is neuer taken in the new nor old Testament for the Priestes alone but generally for the whole congregation of the faithfull And therefore when you say the Prince must be ruled by the Church you dallie with a doubtfull word and put a faire colour vppon a foule cause but you must distinctly tell vs what persons you mean when you say the Church must appoint what the Prince shal command Phi. I meane Churchmen that is Priestes and Bishops Theo. And what if Churchmen do not agree which is truth as in our dayes they do not may Princes make their choyse what Churchmen they will follow Phi. No the chiefe ruler of the Church and head Bishop on earth must appoint them what faith they shall imbrace Theo. That chiefe ruler of the Church you take to be the Pope Phi. We do Theo. We like you well for your plainesse Then Princes may commaund that which the Church you meane Churchmen or if they agree not the chiefe Churchman which is the Pope shall appoint This is your assertion is it not Phi. It is Theo. What you say Princes must do for the Pope we say princes may do for Christ that is they may plant and establish the Christian faith in their Realmes by their Princely power though the Pope say nay This is our doctrine can you reproue it Phi. Who shall be iudge which is the true Christian faith Theo. You slip now to an other question It is one thing who may command for truth another who shal direct vnto truth We say Princes may command for truth punish the refusers this no Bishop may chalenge but onely the Prince that beareth the sworde This is the first part of our question And touching the second which is the safest way for princes to be guided vnto the truth though we differ about the meanes you reseruing it as a speciall priuilege to the Pope we referring it as a common duetie to the Preacher yet this is euident that Princes must be directed vnto truth the same way that al other Christians are to wit by perswasion and not by coaction For no Prelate nor Pope hath authoritie from Christ to compel priuate men much lesse princes to the profession of faith but onely to teach and instruct them These be the two pointes wee stand on disproue them if you can Phi. This is not al. You would haue Our faith and saluation so to hang on the Princes will and Lawes that there could be imagined no neerer waie to religion than to beleeue what our temporall Lord and Maister list Theo. It is a cunning when you can not confute your aduersaries at least to beelie them that you may seeme to say somewhat against them In deede your fourth chapter is wholie spent in refelling this position which we detest more than you Phi. You begin to shrinke from your former teaching Theo. You will neuer shrink frō your former facing Did euer any man on our side affirm the princes will to be the rule of faith Haue we not earnestly written and openly taught that Religion must not depend vpon the pleasures of men Haue not thowsandes of vs here in England and elsewhere giuen our liues for the witnesse and confession of Gods truth against princes lawes and Popes decrees In Spaine Fraunce Italie
not admit which they said against others Hee euer doth that which the Arrians woulde haue and they againe saie that which hee liketh And whereas the Bishops in those dayes were wont to be lawfully chosen by the people of the place and sufficiently examined and allowed by other Bishops adioyning and openly created in the church Constantius in steede of the church would haue his palace succeed and for the multitude of people and right of assemblies to elect hee commaunded three Eunuches to bee present and three of his spies or prolers for you can not call them Bishops that they sixe in his palace might create one Felix a Bishop And noting what manner of Bishops the Emperour and his Eunuches made hee saith In illorum locum iuuenes libidinosos Ethnicos ne catechismo quidem imbutos necnon digamos de maximis criminibus malè audientes modò aurum darent veluti emptores è foro ad Episcopatus summisere They sent in their places that were banished yong men leacherous persons Ethnickes not so much as taught the first principles of faith hauing two wifes and spotted with enormous crimes so they would giue mony as cheepe-men out of a market The furious violence that was vsed in the time of Constantius to driue men to participate with Arrians not onely by imprisonmentes and banishmentes but by chaining whipping scalding with fire trampling vnder feete stoning choking and secret murdering such as refused without all respect of vocation age or sexe was so lamentable that no christian hart can read it without teares and it is so largely described and pithily disproued by Hilarie and Athanasius that no man except he be blinder than a bitle can doubt whether Constantius were a wilfull tyrant in the church of God or no. Peruse the places and you shall find proofes enough of that which I say I proclaime saith Hilarie that to thee Constantius which I woulde to Nero Decius and Maximinian thou fightest against God thou ragest against the Church thou doest persecute the Sainctes thou hatest the Preachers of Christ and ouerthrowest Religion a tyrant not in humane but in diuine thinges a newe kinde of enemie to Christ the forerunner of Antichrist I repeate nothing rather than thy doings in the Church because I would open no other tyrannie but that which thou vsest against God And Athanasius shewing the reasons why hee calleth Constantius Antichrist Who seeing or hearing saith he these thinges who considering the rage of these wicked ones and so great iniustice would not deepelie sigh at it Who hereafter will dare to call Constantius a Christian and not rather the image of Antichrist For which of Antichristes markes doth hee lacke Or what cause is there why Constantius should not in euerie respect bee counted Antichrist Haue not the Arrians and Ethnickes as it were by his precept vsed their sacrifices and blasphemies against Christ in the great church at Caesarium in Aegypt As a Giant he exalteth himselfe against the most high and hath inuented waies to change the◠Lawe of God breaking the ordinances of Christ and his Apostles and inuerting the customes of the church And since he is cloathed with Christianitie and entereth into holy places there standing and wasting the churches Abrogating the Canons and by force compelling that his pleasure may preuaile who at any time will affirme that these dayes are peaceable to christians and not rather that this is a persecution and such a persecution as was neuer before and no man after shall make the like except that sonne of perdition which is the true Antichrist Howe thinke you did not these Fathers reproue Constantius for changeing the faith oppressing Synods corrupting iudgementes infringing the Canons barbarons enforcing the christians and shortly for subiecting all to his will and violence Phi. I knowe they make mention of these things but yet they reproue him generally for intermedling with Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. I hope they reproued him for that he did Phi. The case is cleare they coulde not reproue him for that hee did not Theo. These things which I last rehearsed Constantius did as I proue by their witnesse that chiefly rebuked him ergo Constantius was reproued of Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius for these thinges that is for playing the tyrant in diuine matters or as you call them in causes Ecclesiasticall Phi. But Osius saith Medle not O Emperour in causes Ecclesiastical nor do thou commaund vs in that kind but leaue such things to vs rather Theo. You were answered before but that you wil neuer be satisfied Osius dissuadeth Constantius from vsing his absolute power obstinate wil in those things that were then in question betwixt the Christians Arians He saw the manifolde and excessiue disorders of Constantius in forcing Synodes of Bishops by terror and violence to bow at his becke in making his palace a consistorie for their causes and there iudging what his Eunuches would in dissoluing the ordinances of Christ and his Apostles and doing all thinges against the Rules of the church and therefore had good cause to saie Ne te misceas ecclesiasticis neque nobis in hoc genere praecipe sed potius ea a nobis disce Enterpose not thy selfe as thou doest O Emperour in Ecclesiasticall matters neither commaund vs in this kinde but learne such things rather of vs and not as you say leaue such things rather to vs. God hath cōmitted the Empire to thee to vs the things of the church as he that enuieth thine Empire contradicteth the ordinance of God so take thou heede least drawing vnto thy selfe the things of the church thou be guilty of great sinne It is written Giue vnto Caesar that which is Caesars vnto God that which is Gods It is therefore neither lawfull for vs to holde a kingdome on earth neither hast thou power O Prince ouer sacrifices sacred things These words put a difference between the function of Priestes Princes shew that neither may intrude with ech others charge which we confesse with a good wil. But as Priestes must teach truth and conuict error that is their office so princes must commaund for truth and punish error because publike authoritie to commaund and punish is not the Priestes but the Princes right where-with Priestes must not meddle Phi. Yet the Prince must learne at the Priestes hande which is truth and which error Theo. If the Priest teach truth and the Prince reiect it the Prince shal answere to God for the cōtempt of truth but if the priest teach error in steed of truth a godly prince hath lawful power to banish the doctrine punish the teacher Phi. And if the Prince saie that truth is error error is truth shall truth be banished and the Priest punished vpon the Princes saying Theo. And what if the Priest saie that light is darkenesse and darkenesse light shall Princes be excused before God for
must it not Phi. It must Theo. And the fact is as lawfull in Princes when they punish schismatikes heretikes and Idolaters as when they punish adulterers theeues and murderers Phi. What else Theo. And if they leaue such impieties against God vnpunished they do not that duetie which God requireth of them Phi. All this wee grant Theo. Will you not recall it when we come to the push Phi. Recall it As though this could hurt vs Theo. Since you promise not to recall it I will trust you for this once and will come to the true difference betwixt your opinion ours You flatly confesse and the generall practise of your Church is that Princes of duetie should and lawfully may punish all spiritual ecclesiasticall offences namely Apostasie Idolatrie sorcerie sacrilege schisme heresie and such like impieties against God and his Church as well as ciuill disorders and iniuries against our neighbours Can you denie this Phi. I can not Theo. Wee confesse the same Let it stand irreuocable for both sides Phi. Agreed But remember they bee punishers not determiners of those thinges Theo. I said punishers if you looke to my words Phi. I grant that doctrine to bee good and sound Theo. Then foorth What you say Princes may punish we say Princes may prohibite Prohibiting is lesse than punishing a meane to make subiectes do their dueties without punishing which euery Christian Magistrate shoulde rather embrace Princes by common iustice must open their mouthes to speak before they lift vp their handes to strike their lawes must bee knowen before their sword must be drawen to reuenge disobedience Nothing can be iustly punished except it bee first prohibited So that princes may punish those things ergo they may prohibite them Phi. Great reason Princes should warne their subiects as well as punish them Prohibiting is but forewarning what thinges they must auoyde lest they fall into the paynes prescribed Theo. If they may punish and prohibite that which is euill ergo they may commaund and establish that which is good in matters of religion Howe like you the sequele Phi. You thinke it holdeth by reason of the contrarietie that is betweene both parts Theo. All learning will tell you that contraries bee consequent to contraries If they may forbid and abolish that which is euil ergo they may bid and establish that which is good And so S. Augustine coupleth them You hearde the places before As a king hee serueth God by making Lawes commaunding iust thinges and prohibiting the contrarie And againe Kings as they bee kings serue God as they bee willed by God if in their kingdomes they commaunde that which is good and prohibite that which is euill not in ciuill affayres only but in matters also touching diuine religion They serue not God by prohibiting euill except they likewise commaund that which is good in diuine religion By duetie they must by consequent they do both How thinke you say we not trueth Phi. I see your meaning You would haue Princes commaund in matters of religion Theo. Wee would haue them in those thinges to commaund that which is good as well as prohibites that which is euill You graunt the later why should you sticke at the former Phi. Commaunding is a woord of too great authoritie Theo. Whether thinke you the greater with woordes to commaund or with deedes to compell Phi. Compelling is more than commaunding Theo. And hee that punisheth apparently compelleth Since then by your owne confession Princes may compell men by punishments from that which is euill to that which is good in matters of religion ergo they may much more command them that which is good Phi. You snare mee with wordes Theo. Doe I snare you with wordes when I say that Princes may commaund that which is good in matters of religion as well as punish that which is euill or do you rather harden your faces and whet your tongues against the Scriptures against the fathers against the lawes and Edicts of all godly Princes in all ages and Countries Looke no farther than to the places which I haue brought you as well out of the holy scriptures as ancient stories and lawes you shal find where princes commanded in causes ecclesiasticall I meane the very woord aboue three skore times If that bee not sufficient you shall haue three hundred when you will So that you make a bad march if you stand on this point with vs that Princes may not commaund that which is good in matters of religion Phi. You shall haue no such aduantage at vs. Wee knowe S. Augustine sayth When Emperours take part with trueth they commaund for trueth against error which whosoeuer contemneth hee purchaseth to himselfe iudgement And againe Emperours commaund the selfe same that Christ doth for when they commaund that which is good no man commaundeth by them but Christ. Theo. You did well to pull your fingers out of the fier you sawe it was too hoat for you S. Austen in that epistle which you quote vseth that very word twelue times to shew that Kings and Princes did and might COMMAVND in matters of religion Reade the twentie constitutions wherein Iustinian disposeth of crimes and causes ecclesiastical and see whether euery sentence be not a commaundement Or if that be too much ouerrun the 123 intitled of diuers ecclesiasticall Chapters and tell vs whether in that one constitution you do not finde aboue fourteene score imperatiue and prohibitiue verbs whereby the Prynce WILLETH PRESCRIBETH APPOINTETH COMMAVNDETH DISPOSETH of persons and causes ecclesiasticall And this you can not choose but perceaue except you bee voide of common sense that Princes vse not to perswade and intreate but require and command their subiects And therfore they must either not medle with matters of religion at all or els of necessitie they must commaund and afterward punish if their commaundement be despised Phi. Let it be so since you will needs haue it so but yet this doth not proue that Princes be supreme Rulers and masters of the faith and Church of Christ. Theo. You leape before you come to the stile Anon you shall heare what this doth proue but first Doe you graunt that Princes may commaund that which is good prohibite that which is euil in matters of religion Phi. What gaine you by that if I graunt it Theo. Take you no care for our gaines Do you graunt it or no Phi. What if I doe Theo. What if doth not answer my question speake off or on to that which I demaund Why be you so dainty to graunt that which you dare not deny Phi. Take your pleasure in that point and yet you shall misse your purpose Theo. My purpose is trueth which neither your high wordes nor indirect shifts shall disappoint You spend time with delaies we might otherwise sooner end Phi. Will you answer as briefly when I aske you the like Theo. If I doe not charge me with myne owne wordes Phi.
title of vniuersall Whom doest thou imitate in so peruerse a name but Lucifer that despising legions of Angels his fellowes would needes aspire to be singular and alone to be ouer all To let one man haue all the members of Christ in subiection vnder him is not the meane to reduce Princes and their people to trueth as you falslie suppose but the high way to wrappe them and the whole church in blindnesse and error Ecclesia vniuersa corruit si vnus vniuersus cadit If he that is vniuersall fall the whole church falleth with him Yea this very subiection of all kingdomes and countries to the Popes beck made him first forget his duetie to God and man whiles his clawbacks aduanced him to the height of heauen and gaue him all power both in heauen and earth and so quailed disabled all others that they neither might reproue nor durst resist his wicked and wilfull fansies were they neuer so pernicious to the faith or opprobrious to the church For you made it Sacrilege to dispute of his fact Heresie to doubt of his power Paganisme to disobey him Blasphemie against the holy Ghost to doe or speake against his decrees and canons and that which is most horrible you made it Presumption not to goe to the diuel after him without any grudging O shameful sinful subiection such as Lucifer himselfe neuer offered the bondslaues of hell Phi. Nay rather O shamefull and sinnefull report doeth hee require any such subiection Theo. If your lawe doe not auouch as much as I report let mee beare the shame Sacrilegij instar esset disputare de facto Papae It were no lesse than sacrilege to dispute of the Popes fact And the Capitall Register of your decrees Commit tunt sacrilegium qui contra diuinae legis sanctitatem aut nesciendo committunt aut negligendo offendunt Similiter de iudicio summi Pontificis alicus disputare non licet They commit sacrilege which of ignorance transgresse or of negligence breake the Lawe of God Vnder the like paine of sacrilege it is vnlawfull for any man to dispute of the Popes iudgement For all the sanctions of the Apostolike See of Rome are to be receiued as confirmed with the diuine voice of Peter himselfe Hee saith Pope Nicolaus that defraudeth any church of her right doeth vniustlie but hee that indeuoureth to take from the church of Rome her priuilege hic procul dubio in haeresin labitur est dicendus haereticus hee out of all doubt slideth into heresie and is to bee counted an heretike Uppon the warrant of this and such like textes your Glozer as it were falling on his knees and holding vppe his handes to that Idoll exalting him-selfe in the Temple of God pronounceth distinctly and leasurably Credere Dominum Deum nostrum Papam non potuisse statuere prout statuit haereticum censeretur To thinke that our Lord God the Pope coulde not decree as he hath decreed must bee counted hereticall For as Pope hee might doe manie things not only declare but also bring in a new article of faith Bonifacius the eight would needes haue it to bee Manicheisme and that he found by the first booke of Moses Whosoeuer saith he resisteth the Popes power resisteth the ordinance of God vnlesse with Manicheus he dreame of mo beginninges than one which we adiudge to be false and heretical because as Moses saith in the beginning God made heauen and earth not in the beginnings Therefore we declare affirme define pronounce that it is a necessarie point to saluation for euerie humane creature to bee subiect to the Bishop of Rome Gregorie the seuenth produceth Samuell to proue that it is idolatrie and infidelitie to disobey the Pope Hee that will not obey this most holsome precept of ours forbidding Priestes their wiues vnder the colour of fornication incurreth the sinne of Idolatrie as Samuell witnesseth Not to obey is the sinne of witchcraft not to be content is the wickednesse of idolatrie Therefore he falleth into Paganisme whosoeuer obeieth not the Apostolike See of Rome They may be well saide to blaspheme the holy Ghost saith Pope Damasus which willingly or frowardly do or dare speake against the holy canons For this presumption is plainly one kinde of blasphemie against the holie Ghost And as though this were too litle the gloze addeth Blasphemie nay ipso facto he is accursed and an heretike Phi. You wrest that to the Popes decrees which was spoken of the canons of councels Theo. I wrest it not the same place will tell you the word compriseth as well the Popes decrees as canons of councels Sancta Romana Ecclesiaius authoritatem sacris Canonibus impertitur habet enim ius condendi Canones The holy Romane church giueth strength and authoritie to the sacred canons for shee hath right to make canons And againe Sic summae sedis Pontifices Canonibus siue à se siue ab alijs sua authoritate conditis reuerentiā exhibent So the Bishops of the supreme See doe reuerence the canons which them-selues make or others by their authoritie And lastly speaking of the Bishoppes of Rome Ipsi soli Canones valent interpretari qui ius condendi eos habent Popes onely may interprete the canons which haue right to make canons Or if you thinke Popes woulde not accompt it blasphemie to breake their decrees reade the words of Pope Adrian in the same section Generali decreto censemus constituimus vt execrandum anathema sit velut praeuaricator fidei Catholicae semper apud Deum reus existat quicunque Regum Episcoporum vel Potentum deinceps Romanorum Pontificum Decretorum censuram in quoqua crediderit vel permiserit violandam By a generall decree we order and determine that he shal be execrably accursed and guiltie for euer before God as a transgressor of the catholike faith whatsoeuer king Bishop or Noble man hereafter shal beleeue the censure of the Popes decretals may be broken in any thing or shall permit the same That horrible curse which the Apostle pronouceth If any man loue not the Lord Iesus this Apostata thundreth on them that doe but doubt of his decretals This is bad enough yet this is not the worst For Bonifacius a Martyr as you make him requireth al men to follow the Bishop of Rome to the diuel of hell without making any words Si Papa suae fraternae salutis negligens deprehenditur inutilis remissus in suis operibus insuper à bono taciturnus qui magis officit sibi omnibus nihilominus innumerabiles populos cateruatim secum ducit primo mancipio gehennae huius culpas istic redarguere praesumit mortalium nullus Your forgeries be as grosse as they be wicked the latine is so good that I can skant english it yet thus it is or should bee If the Pope be found to neglect the saluation of himselfe
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The very children knowe that these three wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A sheepeheard his flocke and to feede haue one and the same deriuation and therefore one and the same signification The holy Ghost himselfe vseth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Synonima that is words of the same power force For when Christ repeated this charge feed my sheep thriseâ— to Peter in the Gospel of S. Iohn his words are the secoÌ„d time 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the third time 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Now draw your assumptioÌ„ from S. Pauls wordes rightly translated what conclude you Bishops haue commission from God to feede the Church or flocke of Christ which Princes haue not ergo Bishops by their calling may preach and Princes may not This is al you can infer and this is nothing against vs. Phi. They be superiors to Princes in feeding the flock of Christ ergo they be their superiors Theo. That sequele is not good In building Masons be superiour to Princes in sayling Mariners in fighting Souldiers be these men ergo simplie superiour to Princes I trow not Phi. Preaching the word dispensing the Sacraments pardoning the sinnes or men which are the Bishops charge be things far greater higher than any that Princes haue Theo. The perfection operation of these things which you name depend not on the wils of men but on the power of God therefore the honor estimation of them must serue for the praise of Gods glorie not for the increase of mans pride The Ghostly worke is Gods the bodilie seruice is the Priests wherein Iudas the thiefe Simon the sorcerer and Demas the renegate may chalenge as much as Iames the iust Peter the zealous and Iohn the faithfull the three pillers of Christs church Per ministros dispares Dei munuâ— equale est quia non illorum sed eius est By ministers far vnlike the gift of God saith Augustine is the same because it is not theirs but his Christ sent him that betraied him with the rest of his Disciples to preach the kingdom of heaueÌ„ to shew that the gifts graces of God are bestowed on theÌ„ which receiue the same with faith though he that deliuereth them be as bad as Iudas The things which God giueth saith Chrysostom caÌ„ not be made perfect by the holines of the Priest for all is done by his heauenly grace Only the Priests office is to open his mouth but it is God that worketh all the Priest doth only accomplish the external signe or act Men saith Ambrose in the remission of sinnes ministerium suum exhibeÌ„t non ius alicuius potestatis exercent do their seruice but exercise no right of authority They pray God giueth the seruice is by man the gift is froÌ„ the heauenly power Preaching the word is a worthier part of Apostolike dignity thaÌ„ ministring the sacraments by the witnes of S. Paul himself saying Christ sent me not to baptise but to preach the gospel And yet of preachers the scripture saith Neither he that planteth is any thing nor he that watereth but God that giueth the increase So that neither in the word nor sacraments you may chalenge any thing to man but only the corporal seruice which is common to the godly with heretiks hypocrits the rest is proper to God may not be ascribed to men without iniurie to him that is the true author of them mighty worker in theÌ„ And therefore the reason which you draw from the perfection of Gods graces in the Church to the preferring aduauncing of the Bishops person before the Princes is very vitious because the subiection reueÌ„ge due to the sword is imparted to the Princes person the dignitie vertue of the word sacraments is not to the Bishops Phi. The Priests commission is higher than the Princes why should not the priests person be aboue the Princes The. The priest hath his coÌ„mission as a seruant to cal for subiection obedience not vnto himself but vnto his Lord Master that sent him And this subiection because it is giuen to God infinitely exceedeth that which Princes may looke for But what is this to the Priests person who must preach himself to be The seruant of meaner men thaÌ„ Princes make himself The seruant of al men if he note wel the words of his commission and not striue with Princes for superioritie Phi. For their persons I wil not greatly staÌ„d with you but certainly their power is aboue the princes The. You â—un so fast that you forget where you should be We were debating who should direct princes in matters of faith you be slipt from that entring a new questioÌ„ who shal correct theÌ„ where the former is yet vnfinished Phi. You did coÌ„fesse that princes must obey Bishops so long as they speak truth The. And you would not deny but princes might refuse bishops if they swarued froÌ„ faith Phi. But who shal be iudge whether they swarue froÌ„ faith or no Theo. That is the question which I said was not yet resolued If Bishops teach truth surely princes must obey theÌ„ I mean the word of truth in their mouthes If they go froÌ„ truth theÌ„ princes must auoide theÌ„ To this we both consent but the doubt is whether trueth bee tyed to some certaine Persons or places where Princes may find it whence Princes must fet it or else whether Princes as all others must vse the best meanes they can to discerne true Preachers from false and so be directed by such as they thinke to be sent from God Phi. You would haue Princes and others leane to their owne iudgements and follow their owne fansies We would haue them sticke to the Church and looke to those Pastours whose faith can not faile Theo. Such Pastours bee worth the following if you can point vs to them Phi. Peters fayth can not fayle follow that faith and you can not misse the trueth Theo. He that keepeth Peters fayth in deede can not want the trueth because Peter beleeued the truth but we bee nothing the nearer for this Pauls fayth was likewise trueth and so was the faith of Matthew Iames Iohn Iude and others but who must be credited what fayth Peter and the rest preached Shall we take that at your hands by report or at their owne mouthes by writing Phi. If their writings were not darke or might not bee wrested the Scriptures were the best witnesses of their doctrine but now their successours must rather be trusted than euery man suffered to take what fayth he list out of their writings Theo. Rather so than worse doth not answere my question but must we trust their successours in matters of faith against or besides their writings Phi. Against their writings we must not besides their writings we must For many things are beleeued which are not expressed in the scriptures The.
like danger Phi. Succession alone is not sufficient to keepe men in the right faith Theo. If you ioyne trueth and holines with it as Ireneus doth no doubt they bee markes of faithfull and Godly Pastours but succession of it selfe doth neither priuilege the Teachers from error nor conduct their hearers vnto trueth because there haue beene thousands in the Church whose opinions you may not alow though you cannot disproue their elections Phi. Admit that and how then Theo. If Bishops singled may erre why not Bishops assembled which you call Councels What assurance hath their meeting to keepe them from erring Phi. The promise of our Lord where there be two or three gathered in my name there am I in the midst of them Theo. Doth our Sauiour speake only of Bishops and Councels or els of all faythful persons resorts gathered to prayer preaching or any other good intent Phi. The wordes be general and therefore belong as wel to councels as other conuents Theo. Indeed the words be generall and therefore belong no more to Councels than to any other Christian Conuents And did they specially pertain to Councels as they do not a Councell of two or three by the purport of the very wordes hath as much assurance of trueth as a Councel of three hundered It is not the number but the name in which they be gathered that guydeth and directeth them vnto trueth Phi. If our Lord haue promised to assist three gathered in his name howe much more will hee assist three hundered Theo. And yet three may see the trueth when three hundred may misse it Which I speake not to deface religious and Godly Councels but to stay the multitude from presuming their fansies to bee true religion when they bee nothing neere Phi. May Councels erre Theo. Why not Phi. What Councels Theo. Yea Councels Rebaptising of heretikes was defended by Cyprian and a Councel of Bishops with him and as Eusebius reporteth out of Dionysius decreed In maximis Episcoporum Synodis in very great Councels of Bishops The Arrians in twentie sixe yeres gathered and framed sundrie Councels for their purpose at Tyrus Ierusalem Philippi Sirmium Ariminum Seleucia Cōstantinople and two at Antioch In the Councel of Millan Aboue three hundered of the west Bishoppes consented that Athanasius should be thrust from his Bishoprike and only fiue sayd nay To the wicked edict of Basiliscus against the Councel of Chalcedon subscribed fiue hundred Bishops Gregorie Nazianzene was so out of loue with the Councels of his time that when he was sent for he praied Proropius to haue excused to the Emperour for sicknes and addeth I to write you the trueth am determined to forbeare all Councels of Bishops because I haue not seene any good euent of any Councel but rather an encrease than a redresse of our euils So that a number of badde Bishops may doe much hurt euen in Councels and the better part is not alwaies sure to be the greater Phi. Particular Councels haue erred but neuer generall Theo. If particular councels may erre why may not general what differēce find you between Prouinciall and general Councels but only the number of Persons that bee called and places whence they bee called Now what warrant I pray you haue three hundered Bishops more than two hundered or the Bishops of some countries more than the Bishops of other Countries that they cannot erre If trueth goe by tale particular Councels haue often matched and passed many generall for number of Bishops The second and sixt generall Councels had present at either but one hundered fiftie Bishops the third had but one hundered as Beda writeth and as it appeareth by their subscriptions not aboue one hundered fiftie whereas the Councel of Sardica had three hundred and so had the councel of Millan and the fourth sixt Councels of Carthage had aboue two hundered Bishops in either of them If it goe by countries then shew vs which Countries haue this priuiledge that their Bishops can not erre and which haue it not For as yet we see no cause why trueth should be tied to some numbers or nations and not to others and before we may grant them that progatiue we must see great cause and good proofe Phi. Wee doe not hold that generall Councels are defended from error by reason of any number or nations there gathered but it is wee say more likelie that many men assembled out of diuers nations shoulde light on trueth than a fewe out of one Theo. You come with likelyhoodes when wee seeke for certaineties Can you shew forth any graunt from God that generall Councels shall not erre Phi. If generall Councels might erre the church might erre which is not possible Theo. As though none were of or in the Church but onely Bishope or all the Bishops of Christendome without exception were euer present at any Councel or the greater part of those that are present might not strike the stroake without the rest When 300. are assembled in Councel and 149. take one part and 151. the other is this your profound learning that the odde voyces which make vp the greater part can neuer erre or doth the whole Church erre when falsehood hath for her selfe tenne or twelue Bishops more than trueth hath Phi. If a Councel once geue iudgement in matters of fayth who can reuerse it Theo. The rest present or absent may lawfully contradict the Councel if it wade besides trueth or against the faith When the fathers in the great Councel of Nice were about to decree that Bishops Priestes and Deacons should not vse their wiues Paphnutius alone rose vp in the midst of their Councel and freely contradicted it The same Paphnutius when secrete enemies laboured in the Councel of Tyrus wrongfully to depose Athanasius caught Maximus the Bishop of Ierusalem by the hand and willed him to rise and forsake that conuenticle of euill men In the Councel of Millan when 300. had consented to the deposition of Athanasius Dionysius Eusebius Paulinus Lucifer and Rhodamus but fiue against fifteene skore openly and plainly withstood it The second Councell of Ephesus was reiected by many godly Bishoppes that were not present as iniurious and wicked and Leo himselfe writeth of the famous and generall councell of Chalcedon Tanquam refutari nequeat quod illicite voluerit multitudo as though that might not bee refused which a multitude hath vnlawfully decreed And making there no more account of their number though there were aboue sixe hundred fathers in that Councel he saith Nulla sibimet de multiplicatione congregationis Concilia blandiantur Let no councels flatter themselues with the great number of persons assembled Phi. You are the first that euer were of this opinion that generall Councels might erre Theo. Your owne fellowes haue beene of that opinion before vs. Panormitane the best of your canonists and Proctour for Pope
sworde which the Prince and not the Priest beareth in Gods behalfe to force refusers and chastiâ—e malefactours as I before at large haue proued And so by consequent Princes are neither bound to the Popes hest for direction nor in daunger of the Popes court for correction but that they may by the aduise and instruction of such as bee learned and godly pastors about them vse their swords for the receiuing setling of trueth and perfect establishing of Christs wil testament within their owne realmes without expectâ—ng or regarding what the bishops of Rome and his adherentes like or allow Phi. But all this while you resolue not who shall be iudge which is the true will and Testament of Christ. Theo. Let him that maketh the claime vndertake the proofe We find no place nor person to whom the sonne of God hath referred vs for the right vnderstanding of his wil but only to himselfe Phi. You bind the people to followe the Prince which of all others is the worst way to come by truth Theo. We bind no man to prince nor Pope for matters of faith Only we say subiects must endure their princes with patience when they command for error obey them with diligence when they maintaine the truth Farther or other seruitude in causes of conscience wee lay on no man and that burden the church of Christ neuer refused neither vnder heretikes Apostataes nor infidels til the Pope growing great by the ruine of the Empire and encreasing as fast in pride as he did in wealth would needs giue the aduenture to rule kingdomes depose Princes though by Gods lawe hee haue no more power nor iurisdiction ouer them than any other Bishop hath which is so farre from that he claimeth and vsurpeth that he as well as other Bishops should be subiect to the sword and obedient to the lawes of the Romane Emperour and so was hee as I haue plainely shewed to the time that forsaking the Grecians and reuolting from the Germanes hee learned to chaunge Lords so often that at length what with sedition of subiects dissention of princes superstition of al sorts the mysterie of iniquitie working he made himselfe Lord and master of all Phi. You bee lothe I see to yeeld the bishop of Rome any right to force princes to their dueties Theo. And you be as willing he should not only take their crownes but tread on their neckes though hee haue no right to superuise their doings or censure their persons Phi. If it be not his right we aske it not Theo. If it be his right we resist it not Phi. Will you admit it if we proue it Theo. Will you not claime it except you proue it Phi. We will not Theo. Then say what you will or can for the confirmation of it THE THIRD PART REFELLETH THE IESVITES REASONS AND authorities for the Popes depriuing of Princes and the bearing of armes by subiectes against their Soueraignes vpon his censures declareth the tyrannies iniuries of Antichrist seeking to exalt himselfe aboue kings and Princes and conuinceth that no deposition was offered by the Pope for a thowsande yeares after Christ and none agnised by any Christian Prince vntill this present daie Phi. THE Pope may reproue Princes excommunicate them and if neede bee depose them which other Bishoppes can not doe Theo. Seuer these thinges which you ioyne togither and the truth will the sooner appeare Reproue them he may when they violate the precepts of God and so may any other Bishop or teacher For God hath placed them in his church to teach reproue instruct reforme as wel Princes as others charged them not to conceale one word of that he hath spoken neither for fauour nor terrour of any Prince The will of God must be declared to all and sinne reproued in all without dissembling or flattering with any sort or State of men and that is most expedient for all euen for Princes themselues rather to heare with humilitie what God hath decreed for their saluation than to run to their owne destruction without recalling or warning So Samuel reproued king Saul Ahias king Ieroboam Elias king Achab Elizeus king Iehoram Iohn Baptist king Herod Neither were wicked Princes onely but also the good and vertuous kinges of Iudah reproued by the Prophets as namely king Dauid by Nathan king Iehosaphat by Iehu and Ezechias by the Prophet Esaie but this reproofe reached no farther than to put them in minde of Gods graces and mercies towardes them and their dueties againe towardes him They neuer offered violence to their Persons nor preiudice to their States onely they did Gods message vnto them without halting or doubling and so should euery Preacher and Bishop not feare with meekenesse and reuerence to laye before Princes the sacred and righteous will of God without respect whether Princes tooke it in good or euill part But farther or other attemptes against Princes than in wordes to declare the will and precepts of God God hath not permitted vnto Preachers Prophets Prelats nor Popes Phi. Yes they may repell them from the Sacramentes which is more than reprouing them in words Theo. If you meane they may not minister the Sacramentes vnto Princes without faith and repentance which God requireth of men that shall be baptized or haue accesse to his table we graunt they must rather hazard their liues than baptize Princes which beleeue not or distribute the Lordes mysteries to them that repent not but giue wilful and open signification of impietie to the dishonoring of his name that is authour of those thinges and the prophaning of the thinges them-selues which bee holie and vndefiled For if Princes will bee partakers of Gods aboundaunt blessinges proposed in Christ his Sonne to all that beleeue and conuert they must not looke to commaund God and his Sacramentes but with lowlines of hart assuraunce of fayth and amendment of life submit themselues vnder the mighty hand of God to receiue his graces in such sort as hee hath prescribed otherwise they prouoke God to their vtter and eternall ouerthrowe and the minister that ioyned with them in their sinnes shall not bee seuered from them in their plagues God hating and punishing the pride and presumption of Princes against him-selfe as much as the vices of meaner men or rather more No small vengeance sayth Chrysostom hangeth ouer your heades which be ministers if you suffer any heynous offendour to be partaker of this table His blood shall be required at your hands Whether he be Captaine Lieutenant or crowned king if hee come vnworthily forbid him in this case thy power is greater than his Phi. If they may be excommunicated ergo they may be deposed Theo. How doth that follow Phi. Well enough When a Prince is excommunicated hee looseth all right to rule and his subiectes are streight-wayes free from yeelding any obedience to him Theo. Who tould you so Phi. No catholike Diuine of
captiues and pray to the Lord for it for in the peace thereof shall you haue peace Which Tertullian witnesseth the christians did in all their publike assemblies Wee call vpon the euerlasting God for the health of our Emperours alwaies beseeching God to sende euerie of them long life happie raigne trustie seruantes valiant souldiers faithfull counsellours orderly subiectes and the worlde quiet and what soeuer people or Prince can wish for Examine your selues how farre you be from the innocencie and integritie of Christes church They wished all happinesse to heathen Princes and praied for the securitie of their liues and prosperitie of their states You curse and ban christian Princes and lay plots not onely for enimies to inuade them but for subiectes to shake off the yoke and shorten the daies of their naturall and lawfull Princes Phi. The church of Christ praied for her Princes if they were Pagans but not if they were heretikes Theo. What was Constantius a Pagan or an heretike Phi. An Arian Theo. For him the church praied Phi. For his conuersion Theo. For his health raigne and welfare Phi. Heretikes perhaps like himselfe did Theo. I say Catholiks Phi. It was then at the beginning of his raigne before his impietie was notorious Theo. About you fetch and all will not serue This testimonie that the church praied for Constantius though an heretike was giuen by a Councell of catholike Bishoppes in the 21. yeare of his raigne not long before his death Phi. Where finde you that the church praied for him Theo. Reade the two letters which the West Bishops sent from Ariminum to Constantius and see whether it be not cleare In the first thus they say Wee beseech you that you cause vs not to staie from our cures but that the bishops togither with the people seruing God in peace may humblie praie for your health kingdome and safetie in which the diuine Maiestie long preserue you The conclusion of their second letter is this For this cause we beseech your clemencie the second time most religious Lord and Emperour that you command vs to depart to our churches if it so please your godlines before the sharpnes of winter come that wee may make our accustomed praiers togither with the people to the almightie God and our Lord and Sauiour Christ for your imperie as we haue alwaies purposed and now wish to continue The writings of Hilarie and Athanasius to this verie Prince confirme the same We beseech your clemencie to permit saith Hilarie that the people may haue such teachers as they like such as they thinke well of such as they choose let them solemnize the diuine mysteries and make prayers for your safetie prosperitie Athanasius by his prayers made for this prince in the open assemblie of the people cleareth himselfe from hauing intelligence with Magnentius the murtherer of his brother With what eyes could I behold that bloodie homicide or howe coulde I but cal to minde your brothers face whiles I made my praiers for your health Howe coulde I indure to thinke euill of your brother or sende letters to his enimie and not rather pray and beseech God for your welfare which verily I did A witnesse hereof is first the Lord which hath giuen you the whole Empire that was left by your Fathers There can witnesse also with me Felicissimus the captaine of Aegypt Asternis the Earle Paladius the master of your Palace and others My wordes were Let vs pray for the welfare of the most religious Emperour Constantius and presently the whole people with one voice cryed O Christ bee fauorable to Constantius and this crie they continued a long time And appealing to the Emperours owne conscience knowledge You haue good triall that all the christians make their prayers and supplications to God that you may liue in safetie and continuallie raigne in peace And God graunt you O most gracious Prince to liue many yeares Heare you deaffe of yeares and dul of hartes the church of Christ praied for hereticall Princes in the middest of their impietie and tyrannie And when it was but obiected to Athanasius that hee and others wrote letters to one that rebelled and tooke armes against the Prince hee made answere Vincat quaeso apud the veritas ne relinquas suspicionem contra vniuer sam Ecclesiam quasi talia aut cogitentur aut scribantur à christianis potissimum Episcopis I beseech you let truth take place with you and leaue not this suspition vpon the catholike church as though any such things were written or thought on by Christians and especially by Bishoppes Howe farre then were these men from your humours which professe to depose Princes and not onlie licence Subiectes to rebell but incite them to kill their Soueraignes as you did lately Parry with pardon praise and recompence both here and in heauen Phi. They might do this in the beginning of his raigne before hee discouered his heresie Theo. These bee senslesse shiftes Hilarius wrote his booke after the Councell kept at Millan by Constantius and Athanasius his after Liberius was banished For those pointes be mentioned in their writinges and fell out the one immediatly before the other after the Councel of Ariminum And therefore the rathest of these defences came seuenteene yeares after the beginning of Constantius raigne and in the hoatest of his tyrannicall and hereticall persecution as the bookes themselues declare And yet they not onely indured but also obeyed him as their liege Lord and detested all resistance in deede and thought as vnlawfull for Christians and chiefly for Bishops Phi. But when in processe of time some Princes through Gods iust iudgement the peoples sinne were fallen to such contempt of religion as it lightly happeneth by heresie and Apostasie that excommunication being onely but a spirituall penaltie or other ordinarie Ecclesiasticall discipline would not serue then as well Bishops as other godlie persons their owne Subiectes did craue aide and armes of other Princes for their chastisement as most holie and auncient Popes euen in the olde dayes when the Protestants confesse them to haue beene godlie Bishoppes did incite catholike kinges to the same that those whom the spirituall rodde coulde not fruitfullie chastise they might by externe or temporall force bring them to order and repentaunce or at least defende their innocent Catholike Subiectes from vniust vexation Theo. You begin nowe to shewe your selues in your right kinde From the church you leape to the fielde meaning belike as Iulius the seconde did that since Peters keyes wil not pleasure you Paules sworde shall better steede you The side of your booke seemeth to direct vs when and vppon what occasion spirituall Pastours beganne to vse the temporall sword but the text it selfe runneth quite awrie Wee finde there neither time prefixed nor spirituall Pastour named that euer vsed the temporall sworde Are rebellions such trifles with you that you thinke to proue them with
to come from God and not from man If you saie that Abia sought not for the kingdome but for Religion though his owne wordes sound to the contrarie knowe you that as Ieroboam was starke naught so Abia for all his crakes and your praises was little better The holie Ghost whose report wee must beleeue before yours saieth that hee walked in all the sinnes of his Father which hee had doone before him and that his heart was not right with the Lorde his God And the sinnes of his Father are thus described in the Scripture Iudah wrought wickednesse in the sight of the Lorde and they prouoked him more with their sinnes which they committed than all that which their Fathers had doone For they also made them high places and images and groues on euerie high hill and vnder euerie greene tree There were also Sodomites in the Land that did according to all the abominations of the people which the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel This was in the time of Roboam Abia walked in al his waies and therefore lacked not much of Ieroboans wickednesse though you make him a victorious religious conquerour That Edom and Libuah reuolted from king Ioram is verie true but that their reuolt was either lawfull or for religion that you proue not Edom had no such respect they were prophane persons and Infidels and as soone as they sawe their time they cast off the yoke which the kinges of Iudah had laide vpon them But not long after in the raigne of Amaziah they were meetely wel plagued by the king of Iudah for their reuolting he smiting tenne thowsand of them with the sworde and taking other tenne thowsand aliue and casting them down from the top of a rocke that they burst al to peeces thereby to giue them a iust recompence for their former rebellion The Scripture saith that Libuah a citie of the Priests as appeareth by the first allotment made in the 21. of the booke of Ioshua rebelled at the same time but it commendeth their rebellion no more than it doeth the rebellion of Edom. It will be as hard for you to proue either of them did well as that your selues may do the like Leude deedes are reported in the Scripture as will as good but not commended No more are these Phi. The text saith they did it because the king of Iudah had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers Theo. The Scripture doth not set down the cause why they might lawfully doe it but addeth this as a reason why God suffered these troubles to fall on king Ioram As if it should haue said no maruell to see these rebell against him for he had forsaken the God of his fathers And if this were a fault in king Ioram to forsake the God of his fathers as in truth it was how can the priests of Libuah be excused for seuering themselues from the line of Dauid without warrant from God that which was worse from the temple seruice of God established by expresse commandement at Ierusalem If that be true which you say that Libuah could neuer be recouered again to the kingdom of Iudah your selfe conuince them of a pestileÌ„t wicked reuolt For though they might pretend religion against king Ioram yet against the godly kings of Iudah which followed as Ezechiaâ— Iosias others they could pretend none therfore by your own confession it was no defection from Iorams idolatrie but a plaine rebellion against the kingdom of Iudah an vtter renouncing the Altar Temple seruice of God at IerusaleÌ„ Which how it might stand with their duties to God his law we yet conceiue not neither wil you euer be able to iustifie that fact of theirs with all your cunning and eloquence The ten tribes assembled to sight with Ruben Gad for building an Altar by Iordan against the commandement of God and therein they did but their duties If you aske by what authority they did it the answere is easie Their commonwealth coÌ„sisting of 12. tribes al indued with like soueraignty ten might lawfully represse two without any farther warraÌ„t as after they did the Beniamits for that filthy fact of the men of Gibeah But yet at this time Ioshua liued whom God himselfe had appointed captaine ruler of the 12. tribes therfore besides that authority which the whole had ouer a part that in common regimeÌ„t is sufficeÌ„t there was a superior magistrate at the denouÌ„cing of these wars and though they had fought togither as equals yet will not that example ratiâ—ie the rebelling of subiectes against their Princes which is your purpose Phi. Since Christs law religion was establâ—shed diuerse great honorable fights haue bin made for the faith against princes and prouinces that vniustly withstood and annoied the same Theo. What warres haue bin for religion since the comming of Christ if you meane between Prince Prince Realme Realme is bootles for you to seeke needlesse for vs to answere We dispute not what causes may iustly be pursued with battel but what what persons are permitted to take the sword against whom And vnto the time of Gregory the 1. which compasse you take to bring vs some presidents of your doings you can not shew that euer christian subiects did beare armes against their Princes for any quarrell of regilion were allowed Rebellions were rife in those ages as well as now but we deny that the Church of Christ or the godly Bishops of those times did euer consent allow or like those tumults much lesse procure them or vse them for the safegard of their Sees as you beare men in hand they did Phi. In old times of the primatiue church the christian Armenians lawfully defended themselues by armes against their Emperor Maximinus Theo. You that feare not to depraue the scriptures wil make no bones to corrupt vitiate other Stories at your pleasures The Armenians being no subiects but confederats wheÌ„ Maximinus would haue compelled them to worship idols to that ende offered them force resisted as they lawfully might of fellowes friends became straÌ„gers aduersaries The words of Eusebius are very plaine for that purpose Maximinus had also warre with the Armenians who of long time before that had bin friendes confederates with the Romanes That people being christians very deuoute this hatefull tyrant attempting to force to the sacrifices of idols diuels made them of friends foes of collegues enimies Phi. The Catholike people of diuers Prouinces haue often by force defended and kept their Bishoppes in their seates against the Infidels but specially against the commaundements of heretical Emperors yea and resisted them in defence of their Churches and the sacred goods of the same As the Citizens of Antioche defended their Church against the Emperour Galerius his officers Theo. Your generall and voluntarie
reportes wee may hardly trust since your speciall instaunces be so corrupted and wrested And could you shewe that which you speake of as you can not you must also proue it well done or at leâ—t to haue beene liked and allowed of the Church of Christ before we can receiue it The Apostles rule is strong against it You must bee subiect not onely for wrath but for conscience sake Many thousand Martyrs Bishoppes others submitted themselues and endured the vilest torments that coulde bee deuised against them as the ten persecutions of Christes Church vnder heathen Princes most clearly witnesse that euer any of their subiects rebelled against those bloody persecutors in respect of religion must be your care to shewe Wee reading all the monumentes of those tymes verily find none and by your silence it should appeare your selues know none otherwise we do not thinke you woulde disfurnish your cause and trouble the reader with impertinent matters That the Citizens of Antioch defended their Church with armes against the Emperour Galerius his officers I find it writteÌ„ in no good Author neither do you quote the place that Storie you may put in your Legende as taken thence by most likelyhood The temples of their bodies which were farre more precious they did not defend from the furious and insatiable rage of Diocletian Maximinus but as well at Antioche as in all other places subiect to the Romane Empire the christian men women mildly gladly suffered those torments deaths and shames which in our eyes neither flesh could beare nor nature brooke so that wee haue cause rather to maruaile at their patience than to mistrust their disobedience Phi. S. Basil and S. Ambrose people defended them against the inuasions of Heretikes Theo. After Valens the Emperour had twise decreed to banish S. Basil and was the first tyme stopped of his course by the suddaine sicknes of his sonne and terror of his wife and the second time by a straunge trembling of hande and heart as he was subscribing the sentence of deportation against him hee neuer after offered to meddle with Saint Basill but suffered him quietly to enioy his Bishopricke Yet fell there out after this a contention betweene the Lieutenaunt of Pontus and Saint Basill about the liberties of the sanctuarie for a Noble woman that had taken the Church for her refuge to saue her selfe from one that woulde haue forced her to mariage against her will The Deputie required the woman to bee deliuered the Bishoppe replied that hee might not violate the Lawes of GOD and man The Deputie stomacking Saint Basill and the more for his stout defence otherwise of the Christian faith sent for the Bishoppe to his Tribunall and commaunding him to bee stript threatned to whippe him and to teare his flesh with Iron hookes This indignitie the people could no longer abide but seeing their Pastor thus shamefully handled without the Emperours commandemeÌ„t or knowledge vpon the priuate displeasure of a Deputie for the liberties of the Church established by the Romane Lawes the whole citie men and women fell to an vprore and were like enough to haue done the Deputie some mischiefe but that Saint Basil with much adoe repressing the people deliuered his persecutor from that perill This is the true report of Saint Basils case euen out of the same author which you auouche Gregorie Nazianzene Their griefe you see was not against the Emperours power or fact but against the malice of a Lieutenant presuming vpon a priuate grudge without any warrant from the Prince not onely to doe that which the Emperour in his owne person had refrained but in most spitefull and seruile manner to abuse their Bishop against all order of Lawe And this tumult S. Basil neither procured nor praised but asswaged with his presence and offered himselfe to the Deputies pleasure Of S. Ambrose wee spake before by occasion and thither we send you It is most vntrue that the people of Millan either did or might take armes against the Emperour though hee were then but a child and therefore might make no Lawes for Religion or otherwise without Theodosius ioynt Emperour with him in possession of the scepter before him Which exception neither S. Ambrose nor other godly bishops vsed against him but submitted themselues with al meekenes when in reason they might haue taken this aduantage Of the people S. Ambrose himselfe giueth this testimonie In singulis vobis Iob reuixit in singulis sancti illius patientia virtus refulsit Quid enim praesentis dici potuit a viris Christianis quà m quod â—odie in vobis locutus est Spiritus sanctus Rogamus Auguste non pugnamus non timemus sed rogamus Hoc Christianos decet In euery one of you Iob is aliue againe in eche of you his patience and vertue shined What coulde bee sayde fitter by Christian men than that which the holy Ghost this day spake in you We beseech O Emperour we offer not armes Wee feare not to die but we intreate thy clemencie This beseemeth Christians to desire tranquillitie of peace faith but to bee constant in the truth euen vnto death And for his part when hee heard that his Church was taken vp by the Emperours souldiers he fet only somewhat the deeper sighes sayd to such as exhorted him to goe thither deliuer vp my Church I may not but sight I ought not Phi. But the people were in a commotion which appeareth by that S. Ambrose answered when they willed him to asswage their furie It lay in him not to incite them but hee had no meanes to represse them Theo. Truth it is that the people flocked to their Churches and chose rather to bee slaine in the place than to leaue them vnto Arians But that they offered armes or attempted any force either for S. Ambrose or against Valentinian is a manifest vntrueth The merchaunts were amerced and emprisoned the Nobles were hardly threatned and S. Ambrose himselfe charged as with a sedition and yet all the violence that was offered was this The people passing from one Church to an other met a Chapleine of the Arrians and some vnruly persons as in such heates it can not otherwise be chosen beganne to illude and abuse the man but the Bishop presently sent his Priestes and Deacons and rescued him from that iniurie which yet the Emperour tooke so grieuously that hee layd a number of them in Irons and imposed a great mulet vpon the whole Citie to bee paide within three dayes Farther force was none offered by the people of Millan and yet of that small disorder Saint Ambrose saith If they thought him to bee the inciter or stirrer of the people they should straightway reuenge it on him or banish him into what wildernesse they would And to that end he departed home to bed to his owne house that if any man woulde haue him into exile
as you affirme you may but with reuerence and humilitie serue God before the Prince and that is nothing against our oth Phi. Then is not the Prince supreme Theo. Why so Phi. Your selues are superiour when you will serue whom you list Theo. As though to serue God according to his will were to serue whom we list and not whom Princes and all others ought to serue Phi. But you will be iudges when God is well serued and when not Theo. If you can excuse vs before God when you mislead vs we wil serue him as you shall appoint vs otherwise if euerie man shal answere for himselfe good reason he be master of his owne conscience in that which toucheth him so neere and no man shall excuse him for Phi. This is to make euery priuate man supreme iudge of religion Theo. The poorest wretch that is may be supreme Gouernour of his owne hart Princes rule the publike and external actions of their Countries but not the consciences of men and therefure this thwartling is to no purpose Phi. By what authoritie then in the first Parliament of the Queenes highnesse raigne was the determination decision and definition of truethes or of heresies and errors of the true worship of God and the false attributed to that Court of the states no lesse or rather more than to the foure first or any other general Councel to which the deciding of such things is there granted with this limitation so far as they can warrant their doings by the expresse wordes of Canonical Scriptures and no farther but to the Parliament absolutely decreeing at the same time that nothing there determined should be counted heresie errour or schisme what order decree sentence constitution or law so euer were to the contrarie the holy Scriptures themselues not excepted Theo. It is no wonder to see you quarel with the court of the Sates that are so busie with the Princes Crowne And therein as in the former your behauiour doth not change For entring with a manifest vntrueth and keeping on a course of emptie and haughtie wordes which is your glorie you tell vs at length with pride enough that our Lawes be strange and vnnatural dealings proceedings dishonourable to her MAIESTIE and the Realme against Gods expresse commaundement lymiting his constant and permanent trueth to mortall mens willes and fancies violent disorders which to all our posteritie must needes breede shame and rebuke vniust and therefore bind not in conscience repugnant to the dignitie and priuiledges of the Church against the oth of the makers and in deed no Lawes at all the makers lacking competent power authoritie and iurisdiction to proceed iudicially and authentically to heare determine and define 〈◊〉 giue sentence in any such things as be meere ecclesiasticall with a number of those bold and stately bragges hauing neither proofe of your part nor reproofe of ours but only pretending certain legalities quiddities solemnities of humane iudgements which in Gods cause be very ridiculous and in matters of faith more than superfluous For God will not haue his trueth depend either on the numbers or qualities of persons and when his word is offered we may not stand staggering till the Pope and his Cardinals please to assemble and there iudicially and authentically heare and determine what they thinke good which I winne they wil neuer against themselues Christ sent not iudges with iudicial processe but a few disciples with the sound of their voices to conuert the world the Prophetes that taught the people of God and reproued both Priests and Princes vsed no legall nor authenticall proceedings but a bare proposing the will of God to such as woulde beleeue The Kings and Princes before Christ that subuerted Idols and refourmed religion in their realmes relyed on their Princely Power and zeale for the doing of that seruice and not on the ceremoniall and sententiall acts and decrees of Priests or Prophets The Christian Princes take which you will that first receiued and after restored the faith in their Empires and kingdomes tied not them selues to the voices and suffrages of the Clergie that were in present possession of their Churches but often times remoued them without Councel or common consultation You may do well to correct S. Paul where he saith faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God and to adde faith commeth by iudiciall cognition and competent iurisdiction of such as haue legall meanes to deliberate and pronounce of God and his trueth Phi. Would you haue such disorder and confusion suffered in the Church that euery man should follow what he list Theo. I would not haue such presumption or wickednesse brought into the Church that Christ or his worde should be subiected to the wils or voices of mortall men for though the whole world pronounce against him or it God wil be true and all men shall be liars Phi. No more would wee Theo. Why then restraine you trueth to the assemblees and sentences of Popes and Prelats as though they must bee gently entreated and fayrely offered by Christ before he might attempt or shoulde expect to recouer his owne Phi. Wee would haue things done orderly Theo. Call you that order where Christ shall stand without doores till your Clergie consent t◠bring him in Phi. God is not the author of confusion but of peace Theo. It is no confusion for one familie yea for one man to serue God though all the families and men of the same realme besides will not Ioshua sayd to the whole people If it seeme euill vnto you to serue the Lorde choose you this day whome you will serue but I and myne house will serue the Lorde Elias was left alone for any that he sawe willing to serue God in Israel and yet that abated not his zeale Micheas alone opposed him-selfe against foure hundreth Prophetes with what iudiciall authoritie can you tell Ieremie assured the Priests and Prophetes of Ierusalem that God would forsake them and that hee did without any legall meanes that wee can read Amos spared neither Ieroboam the King nor Amaziah the Priest and yet he was but a simple heardman and not so much as the sonne of a Prophet Iohn Baptist had no competent iurisdiction ouer the Scribes and Pharisees that sate in Moses chayre and yet hee condemned them for a generation of vipers The Councels where Peter Steuen Paul and other of the Disciples were conuented accused and punished lacked none of your iudiciall formalities and solemnities and yet the Apostles stoutly resisted and vtterly contemned both their deliberatiue and their definitiue sentences In deede your forefathers assaulted our Sauiour him-selfe with that very question as also they did Iohn before him and the Apostles after him When the Lord was teaching in the temple the chiefe Priestes and the elders of the people came vnto him and sayde by what authoritie doest
thou these thinges and who gaue thee this authoritie When Iohn began to baptize the Iewes sent priestes and Leuites from Ierusalem to aske him WHO ART THOV And when hee denyed him-selfe to bee either Elias or the Prophete that was looked for they inferred Why Baptizest thou then if thou bee neither Christ nor Elias nor the Prophete And euen so they asked the Apostles by what power or in what name haue you done this Philand The Apostles commission wee knowe but yours wee know not Theo. You can not bee ignorant of ours if you knowe theirs So long as wee teache the same Doctrine which they did wee haue the same power and authoritie to preach which they had Keepe your competent iurisdictions iudiciall cognitions and legal decisions to your selfe the sonne of GOD first founded and still gathereth his church by the mouthes of Preachers not by the summons of Consistories and hee that is sent to preach may not holde his tongue and tarie til my Lorde the Pope and his mytred fathers can intende to meete and list to consent to the ruine as they thinke of their dignities and liberties Phi. Despise you Councels Theo. By no meanes so long as they bee Councels that is sober and free conferences of learned and godly teachers but if they waxe wanton against Christ and will not haue trueth receiued vntil they haue consented wee reiect them as conspiracies of the wicked which no Christian ought to reuerence Phi. Had you trueth on your side you sayd somewhat but you hâ—ue it not Theo. Then should that be the question betwixt vs not whether the Prince might make Lawes for Christ without your consents or whether the Realme had competent power and authoritie to debate and determine without a Councell what religion they woulde professe For though the Prince and the realme haue doone nothing herein that Gods and mans Lawe doth not warrant yet may wee not suffer you to stande on these quirks to delude God and his tâ—ueth against the which as Tertullian sayth no man may prescribe not space of tymes not patronage of persons not priuilege of places He therefore that defendeth trueth is armed with authoritie sufficient though all the world were against him as it was against Noah when GOD saued him and drowned them for a monument of his iustice to quaile the route and paire the pride of such as after shoulde resist the meanest seruaunt that hee woulde sende Phi. Still you ground your selues as if you had the trueth Theo. If we haue the poorest Preacher in this Realme hath lawfull power enough to pronounce the Pope and all his Cardinals to be heretikes and therefore whether we haue or no must be the question Phi. Wee say you haue not and yet if you had your proceedings in it are disorderly Theoph. You must shew vs some reason Phi. The Prince and Court of Parliament hath no more lawfull meanes to giue order to the Church and Clergie in these things than they haue to make Lawes for the hierarches of Angels in heauen Theo. Will you suffer God himselfe to make Lawes for his Church Phi. What else Theo. And may not euery priuate man for his owne person embrace those Lawes which God hath made whosoeuer say nay Phi. Hee must Theo. May not the Prince and the people doe the like Phi. They may no doubt embrace the Lawes of God Theo. What if some Bishoppes will not agree they shall must the Prince and the people cease to serue God till the Clergie bee better mynded Phi. That is odiously spoken Theo. But truely The case betweene the Clergie and the Laytie in the first Parliament of her Maiesties raigne was whether God shoulde bee serued according to his woorde or according to the deuises and abuses of the Romish Church The prince as also the Nobles and coÌ„mons submitted their consents to the word of God the Bishops refused The foundation of all the Lawes of our Countrie being this that what the Prince and the most part of her Barons and Burgesses shall confirme that shall stande for good there was no disorder nor violence offered in that Parliament as you lewdly complaine but that to publike protection which the Prince and most part had agreed on Phi. In matters of faith the Prince and the laie Lords had no voices Theo. In making lawes they had Phi. True but lawes for religion they might not prescribe Theo. No more might Bishops It is only Gods office to appoint how he wil be serued Phi. Gods wil must be learned at the mouthes of Bishops Theo. They must teach leauing alwayes this libertie to the Prince and people to examine their doctrine and auoide their errours and if they teach not truth the Prince and people may repell them as the Parliament did which you speake of Phi. The decision of truth or heresie pertained not to that Court. Theo. They tooke it not vpon them Phi. Yeas The determination decision and definition of truthes and errours of the true worshippe of God and the false is attributed to that Court no lesse or rather more than to the foure first or any other generall councell Theo. The simple Rustikes of our Countrie doe not so grossely conceiue of their actes and decrees as you doe that woulde seeme great maisters in Israell For who knoweth not that in diuers realms haue beene diuerse positiue lawes and in this kingdome within our age cleane contrary Parliamentes No man is therefore so foolish as to thinke it neither is any besides you so malicious as to report it that the temporall States of this Realme tooke vpon them the absolute deciding of truthes and errours aboue the four first generall Councels yea the holy scriptures themselues not excepted Phi. What did they then Theo. They submitted themselues and the publike state of this Realme to the word of God which by law they might as well as the same Court six yeares before in the first of Queene Mary subiected this Realme to the Popes decrees and fansies Phi. The Parliament of Queene Marie can not be misliked for admitting the faith of their fathers Theo. Much lesse can the Parliament of Queene Elizabeth be reproued for receiuing the faith of Christ. Phi. The faith of Christ is in question the faith of our fathers is not Theo. The faith of Christ we bee bound to keepe the faith of our fathers we be not Phi. Keeping the faith of our fathers we can not misse the faith of Christ. Theo. What priuilege had our fathers more than we that they could not erre Phi. Aske thy father saith Moses and he will shew thee thine elders and they will tell thee Theo. Shall not we be fathers to our posteritie as well as our ancestors were to vs Phil. Yeas Theo. Then must our children aske of vs as we must of those that were before vs. If therefore we may erre why might not our fathers as
not I trust to seek of that which euery child with vs cā say Thou shalt make thee no grauen image nor the likenes of any thing that is in heauen aboue or the earth beneath or in the waters vnder the earth Thou shalt not bow down to them nor worship them Phi. Doth this precept touch the image of Christ Theo. It toucheth any thing made with handes that is worshipped be it the image of God of Christ or of whō you wil. Phi. No Sir it toucheth the images of false Gods but not of the true God for they be Idols that are nothing Theo. Wee speake not of the thinges them-selues but of their images made with handes A false God is an idole in the heart of man and so are all thinges in heauen and earth to the which wee giue any such ghostlie or bodilie honour as God hath prohibited Sainct Paul calleth the couetous man a worshipper of idols of others hee saieth whose God is their bellie teaching vs that whatsoeuer we loue serue or obey against the commaundement of God we make it our God by preferring it before the wil and precepts of the true God in that it is our god which of it selfe is not God it is an idoll the loue seruice and honour that is so yeelded to it is idolatrie by the lawe of god For this cause the bowing our knees and holding vp our hands to an image though it bee not all the honour we ow and yeeld to god yet is it such honor as he hath prohibited to be giuen to any thing made with handes and in that respect our aduised and determined doing it against his commaundement is idolatrie For his precept is resolute Thou shalt not make thee the likenes of any thing in heauen or earth thou shalt not bow thy selfe before them nor serue them Phi. This may not bee vnderstood of the image of the true God For if the images of Princes may be reuerenced idolatry not committed much more the image of God Theo. Earthly similitudes of your making may not controule the heauenly precepts of Gods owne giuing The images of Princes may not wel be despited or abused least it be taken as a signe of a malicious hart against the Prince but bowing the knee or lifting vp the hand to the image of a Prince is flat ineuitable idolatrie Phi. The image of God deserueth more honor thā the images of mē in respect of the person that is resembled The. You heard the plaine precept of God commaunding no such honor to bee giuen to any image made with handes no not to the image of himselfe Phi. I heare you so interprete but I heare not him so command Theo. You may when you wil the scripture in that point is very cleare Moses the reporter of the law from Gods owne mouth laying foorth the ground of the second precept saith The Lord spake vnto thee out of the midst of the fire and yee heard the voice of the words but sawe no similitude Take therefore good heede to your selues for you saw no image of God in the day that the Lord spake vnto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire that ye corrupt not your selues and make you a grauen image of God or likenes of any figure whether it be of male or female or of any beast that is on earth And so along pursuing the seuerall branches of the second commandement They saw no shape of God least they should make them any image of God contrary to that which hee had commaunded them By this precept Esaie proueth that God should not be figured To whome then will you liken God or what similitude will you set vp vnto him And sharply rebuking the people for not remembring that part of the law wherein they were charged to make no likenesse nor similitude vnto God he saith Know ye nothing Haue ye not heard it hath it not beene told you from the beginning Not meaning any secret or priuate instruction of man but the open written law of God which was then deliuered them when they first became the people of God So that aswell the writer as the interpreter of the law yeeld this to be the sense of the second precept that no similitude or likenes should be made vnto God because no such image cā resemble the brightnes of his glory but only demonstrate the basenesse of our fansie Phi. We talke not of making similitudes vnto God that be vnlike him but of worshipping those that be like him Theo. And since none can be made that is like him the bowing to any is not the honoring of him but the seruing of idols which he ahhorreth Againe the first part of this precept Thou shalt not make thee any grauen image nor the likenes of any thing directly concerning the shapes and images that any man would or could make vnto God as Moses and Esaie doe witnesse the rest of the same precept Thou shalt not bowe downe to them nor serue them must needes be referred to the selfesame similitudes and figures which before were prohibited to be made Thirdly if any grauen Image of God might be worshipped why might it not be made since it cannot be worshiped vntill it be made God therefore prohibiting it to be made instructeth vs that though it were made it should not be worshiped And to that end God himselfe protesteth My glorie will I not giue to an other nor my praise to grauen Images meaning no part of the honor and seruice that is due vnto him whether it bee spirituall as feare loue faith obedience praiers and thankes or corporall as bowing the knee lifting vp the hand burning incense and such like which are Idolatries when they are done to Images as wel as the former kindes of inward and Ghostly worship Phi. Idolatries they be when they be doone to the Images of false Gods which are Idols not otherwise Theo. False Gods by nature there are none We know saith the Apostle that an Idol is nothing in the world and that there is none other God but one and he is wholy trueth But the shape or figure made with hands to resemble the true God whatsoeuer it be is an Idoll prohibited by Gods Law as I haue proued and therefore bowing the knee or holding vp the hand to it is Idolatry condemned by that precept which I last repeated Thou shalt not bow thy selfe to them nor serue them Phi. What not to the Image of the true God Theo. The Image of the true God made with hands is a false God and no likenesse of his but a lewd imagination of yours set vp to feede your eyes with the contempt of his sacred wil dishonour of his holy name and open iniurie to his diuine nature For what resemblance hath a dead and dombe stocke shapened like a man to the glorious inuisible and infinite Maiestie of the liuing
and euerlasting God Howe are you not afraide to defend the worshipper when God accurseth the maker of any such carued or molten Image as being an abomination in his sight Doth your cunning or conscience serue you to gaine-say the manifest voice of God himselfe speaking by his Prophet To whom now will you liken me that I should be like him saith the holy one Phi. We be not so foolish as to thinke the shape of a mortal man resembleth the incomprehensible substance of the deitie Theo God graunt you be not Doe you then acknowledge that euery likenesse made with hands to represent the God of heauen is an Idole Phi. Euerie likenes what meane you by that Theo. I meane the likenes of man woman or of any other creature in heauen or earth Phi. It is somwhat hard to call the Image of God an Idol Theo. To call that an Idol which man maketh for an Image vnto God since God himselfe refuseth euery such likenes and pronounceth it accursed and abominable is no hardnes at al. Yea rather to giue it a better name were to make God a liar and in spite of his spirite to saue the Iewes and Gentils from that Idolatrie wherewith they were charged and for the which they be condemned in the scriptures For the things which they worshipped they thought to be the Images of God and in that respect did they honour not them so much as God by them supposing them to be his Images Phi. The Gentils and Iewes that were Idolaters worshipped false Gods and not the Image of the true God Theo. Their false Gods were the workes of mens hands made to resemble in their conceit the true God The children of Israell did not thinke their golden Calfe to bee a God but minding to haue some monument of God alwaies in their sight to stirre them to deuotion they made choice of a calfe because they had seene such Images set vp to God in Egypt where the people seruing God in that visible shape were wealthie and mightie by which blessings they coniectured God was wel pleased with the seruice of Egypt and therfore to testifie their thankefulnesse for their deliuâ—rance they erected an Image vnto god their deliuerer and proclaimed an holy day not to the calfe but vnto the Lord. The mother of Micheala vowed siluer vnto the Lord to make a grauen and molten Image Which she after perfected and named Teraphim building a chapel and entertaining a Leuite for it in the honor no doubt of him to whom the siluer was first dedicated The Iewes in all their generations knewe there was no god but one and yet seeing the Gentils that serued god in the shape of a man or likenes of other creatures to prosper and liue at hearts ease and oftentimes to be Lordes ouer them that were the people of god they fell to the manners of the nations round about them and honored as they thought the true god of Israell with bodily shapes and figures whereas god by his prophets notwithstanding their good intentions reiected and reproued that their seruice as doone to strange gods and Idols Yea Baal it selfe which the Scripture detesteth as a most infamous Idole was nothing els but a corporall Image erected vnto god by which the people dreampt they serued and pleased god as may be gathered by Osee where god promiseth to receiue Israell vnto fauour and to cause them to cease from their Idolatrous dishonouring him with the name of Baal At that day saith the Lord thou shalt call me no more Baal and by Esay where god denieth the Images that were set vppe for him to bee like vnto him The very heathens were not so blind as to beleeue the things which they made with their hands were gods neither did they set them vp as gods but rather as Images vnto god whom they thought to bee delighted with that kinde of visible and voluntarie seruice Sainct Ambrose saith of them Gentes lignum adorant quia Dei Imaginem putant The heathen worship their peeces of wood because they thinke them to bee the Images of God Themselues could answere the Christians in that sort as Celsus in Origen Quod si vel lapidem negent vel lignum vel aes vel aurum Deum esse ridiculum profecto erit id sapere Quis enim eà nisi stolidus quispiam pro Dijs habuerit Sed Deorum sunt ista vel sacra vel effigies quaedam If the Christians denie things made of wood stone brasse or gold to be God we graunt that were a ridiculous opinion Who but a starke foole did euer account them for Gods Yet these are seruices vnto the Goddes or else certain resemblances of the Goddes So Lactantius witnesseth of them Non ipsa inquiunt timemus sed eos ad quorum Imaginem ficta quorum nominibus consecrata sunt The heathen vse to say we stand not in awe of these Images but of them after whose likenes they be figured in whose names they be dedicated Their wordes in Clemens are Nos ad honorem inuisibilis Dei visibiles Imagines adoramus Wee worship the images which we may see in the honour of that God which can not be seene And in S. Austen Nec simulachrum nec Daemonium colo sed per effigiem corporalem eius rei signum intueor quam colere debeo I worship neither the Image nor the Diuel but by a corporal figure I behold the signe of that which I ought to worshippe Saint Paul chargeth all the Gentiles not with hauing new Goddes or other Goddes but for turning the trueth of God vnto a lie to witte the glorie of the incorruptible GOD to the similitude of the Image of a corruptible man which they made and honoured as the Images of the true GOD. Grosser idolatrie than the which can not bee committed For if to worship the creatures them-selues which are the workes of Gods handes and wherein his eternall power and diuinitie doe appeare were palpable Idolatrie howe inexcusable is it to serue the woorkes of our owne handes and the shadowes of those creatures prepared by art and applied by our vaine conceite to resemble the creator you must therefore either graunt euery likenes made with handes and set vp for an image vnto God to be an idole or else excuse both Iewes and Gentiles from idolatrie which I trust you will not Phi. The gentiles knew not God and for that cause could set vp no Image vnto God but vnto their owne ignorant imagination of God Theo. And you that presume to knowe god if you set vp such images vnto god as the gentiles did which knewe him not you bee ranker Idolaters than they were The more knowledge you haue of god the more sure you bee that those thinges made with handes bee no way like vnto god and that hee vtterly detesteth and expressely forbiddeth both the making and the reuerencing of all
crowneth the Emperours Image honoureth surely him whose Image he honoured and he that despiseth the Emperours Image doeth the iniurie to the Emperour whose Image hee did spit at Theo. Wee doubt not of this similitude Phi. Then wee inferre ergo hee that worshippeth the Image of Christ worshippeth Christ himselfe and so the adoration of Christes Image is not Idolatrie but pietie Theo. You meane that Image of Christ which is made with hands Phi. I doe Theo. Then wee deny the consequent Phi. Why so Betweene the resemblances of Christ and others the proportion is good Theo. Yea but betweene the seruices of God and men and also betweene their Images the distinction is great Princes can expect no more but a sober reuerence due to their states expressed by some decent gestures of the bodie that others may behold it and that to be yeelded chiefly to their persons and secondly to their deputies vicegerents and messengers yea to their ensignes armes and recognisances such as they shall vse or allow to represent their power or to notifie their pleasures In which case they that honour the Princes throne Scepter Seale swoord token or Image honour not the thinges which they see but the power that sent them Thus farre your similitude is currant marie from hence to adoring the carued and painted images of Christ can you draw no consequent First because Christ hath neither appointed nor allowed them to represent his person as Princes haue Next for that our sauiour as the sonne of God must haue a diuine honour in spirit and trueth fit for the creator whereof neither images nor any other creatures are capablâ— and is so ielous of it that he wil part it with none and namely not with grauen or molten images Thirdly the image of any Prince is then to bee honoured when the Person is absent but in the presence of the Emperour him-selfe to turne to his image were apparant madnes as Lactantius teacheth Synce then the Lorde Iesu is by his diuine maiestie present in all places at all tymes to receiue that honor and adoration of all men that is done vnto him it is no pietie but frensie to honour his image when hee himselfe is not absent and requireth as well the religious behauiour of the body as the inward motions of the mynd to be yeelded vnto him Lastly these fathers do not bring this similitude to prooue that wee shoulde worshippe the image of Christ made with handes but that wee shoulde adore Christ him-selfe as being the expresse image of his father proposed by God to haue one and the same honour with him and in that respect the honour doone to him passeth vnto God the father whose Image hee is euen as the reuerence giuen to the officers armes or Images which Princes sende to set vp vnto them selues is accepted as rendred to their owne persons when they can not otherwise be present in the place to receiue it but by a Substitute or a signe that shal represent their state Phi. You may quarrell with any conclusion if you bee once mynded to bee froward Theo. Call you that quarelling when you can not be suffered by a similitude stretched whither you list your selues to subuert the very ground-worke of all religion and godlynes for if this sequele bee sure that the honour done to the painted or carued Image of Christ is transfâ—rred to Christ himselfe then must you giue to the Image of Christ no baser nor other honor than Christ is willing and worthie to receiue and that is the highest and diuinest kinde of adoration that may be which the Scriptures reserue only vnto God And what is this but to set your selues against heauen and to crie defiance vnto God by giuing his honour vnto others yea to the vilest and ignoblest things of all others and to serue most abicet creatures in equall degree of glory with the most mightie creator and quickner of all If you giue them no religious nor diuine honour but a louing aspect or a reuerent behauiour that single salutation or mannerly submission may not passe vnto Christ lest you seeme to vse him as your good familiar and old acquaintance or else as some earthly Potentate rather than as the God of grace and second person in the blessed trinitie Lesse than diuine honour Christ will not haue hee that otherwise honoureth him defaceth him that honour you can not empart to his Image without sacrilegious and damnable Idolatrie your conclusion therefore is not only vaine but also wicked if you referre it to the Image of Christ made with handes and other acceptions of Christes Image can do you no good Phi. S. Ambrose vttering the words which I last rehearsed addeth farther Vides quod inter multas Christi Imagines ambulamus Thou seest we walke among many Images of Christ and therefore all sortes of Images which pertaine vnto Christ must haue their conuenient honour Theo. But S. Ambrose the next woordes before vtterly excludeth your woodden Images as not within the limits of his speach and reproueth the Gentiles for thinking a peece of wood could be an image vnto god and then addeth as you say that the church had many images of Christ not many kindes of Images but many in number that Christ accepteth and reputeth for his Images and those hee maketh to bee the poore and afflicted in whom Christ is relieued or despised as hee sheweth by the woordes of Christ speaking of them as of him-selfe in the twenty fiue of Saint Matthewes Gospel And this rather hurteth than helpeth your conclusion For if the honour which is due to Christ may not bee giuen to men who are the liuing Images of Christ made by the woorkemanshippe of GOD him-selfe much lesse may the same bee deriued to wood or stone fashioned by mans hande and in no point answerable to the true proportion of Christ but in this onely that they bee shaped like men For which cause they resemble the sonne of God no more than they doe any other of the iust or vniust that did or doe liue and cannot truely bee called the Images of Christ but only by the Painters purpose and the peoples error which haue no power to appoint what Image shall stand for Christ much lesse to prescribe what honour he shall bee content to excommunicate to that Image which they list to erect vnto him These bee sufficient causes to stop your conclusion if your antecedent were generall as it is not and similitudes you may not wrest farther than they that made them did intend them Phi. You said somewhat if the worshipping of Images were not deliuered vs by Tradition from the Apostles Theo. Were the Apostles makers or woorshippers of Images Philand Neuer read you that Theoph. Yeas I haue read it often but I was neuer so wise as to beleeue it Phi. Then I perceiue you would hardly beleeue that Christ him-selfe made the first
Not that hee woorshipped the staffe but him that helde it in a signe of loue Then alleaging the brasen Serpent and the Cherubins made by Moses Salomon hee descendeth to other testimonâ—es of Esay and Dauid as sitte for his purpose as salt for sore eyes Esai sayth In those dayes there shal be an altar vnto the Lorde in the mydst of the Lande of Egypt and a pillour touching the ends therof and it shall be for a signe and a testimonie to the Lord in the land of Egypt And Dauid the tuner of Psalmes sayth confession and beautie before him And againe Lord I haue loued the comlynes of thine house And againe Thy face Lord wil I seeke And againe the rich among the people shall bowe themselues before thy face And againe the light of thy countenance is signed vpon vs. These bee the best proofes which Adrian or hee that framed this letter in Adrians name could finde in all the Scriptures for the making and adoring of images and these you see bee very miserable For what fellowship hath Adams act Abels sacrifice Noahs or Abrahams altar Iacobs stone and staffe Esaies title or pillour with images or when Dauid spake of the face and countenance of God did he so much as dreame of the grauen and woodden figures which you would erect vnto God against his heauenly will and trueth Phi. In deed these places be not altogether so pertinent as we could wish theÌ„ but the brasen serpent the two Cherubins which Moses set vp directly make for Images Theo. They doe not warrant your erecting of Images and your adoring of Images they vtterly ouerthrow For the Brasen serpent was a figure of Christ as we find confirmed by his owne wordes in the gospell of S. Iohn and yet though God commaunded Moses to make it and healed the dreadfull plague of the people by it and the Iewes had kept it aboue 700. yeres as a monument of Gods mercie toward them in the desert when they beganne but to burne incense to it Ezechiah the religious King of Iudah brake it in peeces and is commanded by the holie Ghost namely for that act This example wee would haue you aduisedly to marke A figure of Christ erected by Gods owne commaundement and seruing to put al Israels posteritie in minde of the wonders which their fathers saw in the wildernesse when it was abused was defaced and the fact allowed by Gods owne mouth Hence we conclude that the painted and carued Images of Christ himselfe may not be adored and if they be they may be remoued though they were deliuered euen by the Apostles as yours were not The Cherubines were made by Gods appointment but not set in any place for the people to adore them or so much as to see them nay the Priests themselues were kept from the sight of them only the high-Priest once euery yere went into the second Tabernacle where they stoode the vaile being closely drawen betweene that and the first Tabernacle where the rest of the Priests serued And since Gods care was so great that they should not be seene wee inferre his will was as cleare that they should not be worshipped for so much as they could not be worshipped vnlesse they were seene Phi. Yet this sheweth that God would haue them made Theo. But not seen much lesse worshipped And as for the making of them Gods act aboue his Law is no warrant for you to breake his Law By his Law he restraineth you not himselfe from the making of any such similitudes And therefore though he might for causes to him knowen goe against his Law you may not This rule Tertullian will teach you It is no hurt that the same God by his Law forbade a similitude to be made and by an extraordinary precept commaunded the similitude of the brasen serpent to be made If thou wilt obay God thou hast his law make thee no similitude If thou looke to the precept that was giuen after for making a similitude then see thou imitate Moses Make no Image against the law vnlesse God bid thee as he did Moses Phi. The fathers who knew the Scriptures as well as you were of an other minde as you may see by Adrians letters auouching many and good authorities out of them Theo. Adrian dealeth with the fathers as hee did with the Scriptures Eight of them he alleageth and abuseth euerie one of them Augustine saith The Image of God what is it but the face of God in which the people of God are signed And Ambrose when we worship in Christ the diuine Image and Crosse do we part him in sunder The diuine Image and countenance which these fathers speake of is the brightnes of Christes diuine nature and glorie his crosse is his death and humilitie those Adrian grossely supposeth to be such as grauers caruers doe make with their hands And where Cyril saith Faith painteth or liuely describeth vnto vs the worde which was in the forme of God that euidence clearenes of the Gospell setting the sonne of God in his diuine maiestie before our eyes your holy father lewdly misconstereth for painting with pencils and coulours Athanasius Chrysostome and Basil drawing similitudes from the painters art and Emperours Image to other purposes are violently wrested to make for that they neuer ment nor thought Gregory Nissene confesseth he had often seen the storie of the passion pictured but he neither saith in Churches nor alloweth it any worshippe Hierom is brought in last and made to say that which not only no learned father euer vttered but no sober nor Christian man euer imagined As God gaue leaue to the Gentils to worshippe things made with hands and to the Iewes to worshippe the carued workes and two golden cherubins which Moses made so hath hee giuen to vs Christians the Crosse and to paint and reuerence the Images of good workes and so to get him to like of our labour The two first pointes that God gaue leaue to the Gentils to worshippe things made with hands and licenced the Iewes to adore the woorkes and shapes of Cherubins which Moses made are so directly against the trueth of the Scriptures and rule of our faith that nothing can be more the last may well bee written by him that wrate the first and as soone true as the rest And were it found in Hieroms workes as it is not it would but argue that other mens hands had beene in Hieroms bookes as well as his which is no newes in the most of the Fathers Greeke and Latine that you haue left vs at this day But of that paines Adrian himselfe hath eased vs by alleaging that which is not in all S. Hieromes volumes Amidst the route of these follies and forgeries commeth in that Bastard place of Basil no where found in all his writings which besides the apparant slander there
reuerent estimation regard of them that they be not despised or abused although they be but signes So that water in baptism and the creatures of breade and wine in the Lordes supper which are the two examples here mentioned are to be reuerenced as things that be sacred by the word and ordinaÌ„ce of God but not to be adored and honored for the things themselues whose signes they are that were a miserable seruitude or rather the right death of the soule as Austen noteth And that the first teachers of truth remoued al Images as vnprofitable signes to serue God with the words before do plainly shew For speaking of the difference between the Iewes and the Gentils when they should be conuerted vnto Christ he saith ChristiaÌ„ liberty finding the Iewes vnder profitable signes to wit the rites Ceremonies of the Lawe did interprete the meaning of them and so by directing the people to the things themselues deliuered them from the seruitude of the signes but finding the Gentiles vnder vnprofitable signes for that they worshipped Images either as Gods or as the signes and resemblaunces of Gods ipsa signa fruâ—trauit remouitque omnia shee wholy remoued and frustrated the signes themselues that is shee would not suffer them to serue the true God with any such signes as bodily shapes and Images were Your honouring of Images is reproued as you see and not releeued by S. Augustines Rule And since the Lawe of God expressely and â—treitly chargeth you not so much as to bowe your bodies or knees to the likenesse of any thing in heauen or earth which is made with handes consult your owne consciences whether you may with your respects frustrate or with your routes ouerbeare the distinct and direct voice of God himselfe in his own Church And if you be not giuen ouer into a reprobate sense you wil say no. Now that which is against the Law of God can neither be Christian nor Catholike Your Doctrine therefore of bowing and kneeling to Images is repugnant both to the precepts of God and to the generall auncient resolution of Christs church your adoring them with diuine honour is a sacrilegious and flagitious as well noueltie as impietie Phi. You must not looke that we should defend the sayings doings of all that haue takeÌ„ part with the church of Rome If Thomas waded too far in worshipping Images if Gerson mistooke S. Augustine if the later Councell of Nice denied or strained some of the ancient Fathers you must not chalenge vs for their ouerâ—ightes The. We chalenge you for vaunting your selues to be Catholikes when in deede you doe nothing but smooth and sleike the corruptions and inuentions of later ages against the right ancient faith of Christs church The discent of Images with their adoration how late it began how often it varied how far at length it swarued froÌ„ the Primatiue original profession of the christiaÌ„ catholik faith we haue spent somtime to examine Let vs now approch to your praiers in a straÌ„ge toung which haue a great deal lesse shew of catholicism thaÌ„ images had yet are as egerly defended by you as images were Phi. In the Latine toung we haue praiers in a strange toung we haue none you rather that haue turned scriptures church seruice secretes for your pleasures into the English tongue make your praiers in a strange and vnwonted speach to catholik earesâ— The. To English meÌ„ the English toung is not strange Phi. I know they vnderstand it but I call it strange because they were not woont to haue the publike praiers of the Church in their mother toung Theo. In cases of religion we must respect not what men haue but what they should haue beene vsed to Cyprian saith well Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas erroris est Custome without trueth is but the long continuance of error so Tertullian Quodcunque aduersus veritatem sapit hoc erit haeresis etiam vetus consuetudo Whatsoeuer is against the trueth it must bee counted heresie though it be an old Custom The Councell of Carthage where Cyprian was resolued thuâ— The Lord saith in the Gospel I am trueth he said not I am custom Trueth therefore appearing let custom yeeld to truth Phi. That councel erred in neglecting the old custom which the church obserued Theo. But yet their generall assertion which I alleage was so strong that S. Augustine saith to those very wordes Plane respondeo quis dubitet veritatis manifestae debere consuetudinem cedere I plainly answere who doubteth but that custom must yeeld to the trueth appearing Phi. Neither doe we doubt of that but how proue you this to be a manifest trueth that the people of this Land must haue their diuine seruice in the English tongue Theo. It is the manifest precept of him that said I am trueth and witnessed in the Scripture which is the worde of trueth Philan. In what place there Theo. Make not your selfe so great a stranger in the Scriptures as if you knew not the place Phi. You meane the 14. Chapter of the first epistle which S Paul wrote to the Church of Corinth Theo. I doe what say you to it Phi. Mary this we say The reader may take a tast in this one point of your deceitfull dealing abusing the simplicitie of the popular by peruerse application of Gods holy word vpon some smale similitude equiuocatioÌ„ of certaine termes against the approued godly vse and trueth of the vniuersall Church for the seruice in the Latine or Greeke tongue which you ignorantly or rather wilfully pretend to be against this discourse of S. Paul touching strange tongues Theo. And hee that marketh your shifting and facing in this one point shall need no farther tast of your dealing Phi. If you like not that which we say refel it Theo. Can your selues tell what you say Phi. You shall well find that when we come to the matter Theo. First then heare what the Apostle saith and after you shal haue leaue to say what you will Instructing the Church of Corinth thus he saith And now brethren if I come to you speaking with strange tongues what shall I profite you If a truÌ„pet giue an vncertaine sound who wil prepare himself to the battel So likewise you by the tongue except you vtter words of easie vnderstanding how shal it be knoweÌ„ what is spoken For you shal speake in the aire There are for example so many kindes of tongues in the worlde and none of them is without sound Except I know the power and signification of the speach I shall be to him that speaketh barbarous and he that speaketh shall be barbarous to me Wherefore let him that speaketh a strange tongue pray thâ—t he may interpret For if I pray in a tongue not vnderstood my spirite praieth but mine vnderstanding is without fruit What is it then I wil pray with the
one must keepe silence in the church and let them speake that may profite the hearers Idlely is that spoken which is not vnderstoode saith Cassiodorus Non solum cantantes sed etiam intelligentes Psallere debemus Nemo enim Sapienter quicquam facit quod non intelligit We ought to sing the psalms not only with tune of voice but also with vnderstanding of heart For no man doth any thing wifely which he vnderstandeth not The Bishops of Fraunce and Germanie assembled in Councel at Aquisgraine 816 yeres after Christ vnder Ludouike the Godly confesse the wordes of S. Paul bind vs to vnderstand the Psalmes which we sing in the Church Those that sing to the Lorde in his Church ought to haue their vnderstanding goe with their voice that the words of the Apostle may be verified I will sing with the spirit but I will also sing with vnderstanding And Let such be appointed in the Church to read sing that with the sweetnes of their reading and singing can affect the learned and instruct the vnlearned and let them seeke rather the edification of the people than the popular and vaine ostentation of their voices These Catholike fathers affirme the people ought to vnderstand the psalms and praiers of the church you say they need not Betweene these two doctrines there is asmuch difference as betweene daylight and darknes and yet you will be Catholiks whosoeuer say nay yea God himselfe commaundeth that neither exhortation nor supplication be made in the church but such as may edifie the hearers and bee vnderstood of the people you both doe and teach the contrary and yet you would be christians Phi. The simple sort can not vnderstand all Psalmes nor scarce the learned no though they be translated or read in knowen tongues men must not cease to vse them for all that when they are knowen to containe Gods holy praises Theo. Are you hired to betray your own follie or is the force of trueth so great that minding to conuince vs you confute your selues The simple vnderstand not all Psalmes nor scarce the learned wee thinke you speake right yet must not men cease to vse theÌ„ since they containe the prayses of God as true as the Gospell but now Sirs if the learned must vse them wheÌ„ they scarce vnderstand them why may not the simple heare them though they conceiue not al the mysteries of them Phi. As good not heare them as not vnderstand them Theo. All parts of the Psalmes they doe not vnderstand yet some they doe Why then doe you barre them from all since you dare not â—uouch them to bee ignorant of all Againe by continuall hearing them read alleaged and expounded in the Church they that are willing may easily increase their knowledge why then doe you cut the people not onely from that they knowe but also from that they might knowe from the meanes whereby to learne which is the high way to keepe them in ignorance the mother of all errors Phi. They will learne but litle God knoweth Theo. Graunt they would learne nothing yet are you bound to follow that meanes which God hath left to instruct them if their dulnes and peruersenes of heart be such that they will not learne the fault is theirs not yours their blood shal be on their own heads you are discharged where nowe by taking the comfort and instruction of their prayers from them you force them to neglect al as neuer likely to come by the knowledge of any one word and confirme them in their blindnes to your owne destruction and their imminent daunger if God bee not the more graâ—ious to them Phi. Prayers are not made to teache or increase knowledge but their speciall vse is to offer our heartes desires and wants to God and this euery catholike doeth for his condition whether hee vnderstande the woordes of his prayers or no. Theoph. Who tolde you that praiers are not made to teach or increase our knowledge The Psalmes of Dauid what are they but prayers and prayses offered vnto God and yet what Christian was euer so voyde of sense as to say they doe not teach nor increase knowledge or that they were not left vs to this ende and purpose that they shoulde teach and instruct vs in thinges pertaining to our saluation The prayers of the Godly throughout the scriptures though they were vttered in their wants and necessities yet were they written for our instruction And if you were not as destitute of grace as you be of truth you woulde soone perceiue that religious and Godly prayers doe mightily teach both learned vnlearned their dueties to God and his mercies to them Phi. In our prayers wee speake to God and not to men and that leadeth vs to â—ay they were not made to teach or increase knowledge Theo. The end of prayer in him that maketh it is to aske at Gods handes that he lacketh and to render thankes vnto God for that hee hath receiued but that the publike prayers of the Church do not first teach vs howe to pray and next instruct vs in many and most points of truth what to beleeue and confesse vnto God were meeter for Turkes and Infidels to defend than for such as you would seeme to be I meane both learned and Christian men Howbeit the pitch of our question is this whether they may be called prayers which wee make with our mouthes and not with our heartes and if they may not whether our heartes can pray without vnderstanding These be the matters that here we striue for and of these the first is prooued by the whole course of the Scriptures the seconde as well by the nature of man as by the word of God That God reiecteth the mouth without the heart as hypocrisie and no pietie our Sauiour telleth you when he saith O hypocrites Esay prophesied well of you in saying this people draweth neere to me with their mouth and honoureth me with the lippes but their heart is farre from me That our heart ioyneth not with our mouth when our vnderstanding wanteth is euident not onely by the scriptures which take the heart of man for his vnderstanding but by the education of our nature Dauid resembling those meÌ„ that haue not vnderstanding what they say or doe to the horse and Mule and â—usten allowing them when they pray they knowe not what no better place than among parrets and pies which is no place for men much lesse for those that would seeme to serue and honour God And what can be plainer than that vnderstanding is the proper action and first motion of mans heart which wanting in any thing that he doeth or sayeth his heart is also wanting since not an heart but an vnderstanding heart doeth make the difference betwixt man and beast Philand That is if they vnderstande not their owne woordes when they pray but they may bee ignorant of the
Saint Hierom of when hee sayde Quocunque te verteris whither soeuer thou turne thy selfe Philand Of other Countries Theoph. Of what other Countries Philand Of all other Countries and specially of the West partes where the latin seruice was Theoph. So you woulde enforce his woordes but you doe him the more wrong Philand Are not his woordes plaine Quocunque te verteris turne whither thou wilt the husbandman holding his plough singeth Allelu ia Theoph. In deede his woordes are plainely peruerted by you For Hierom speaketh not of the West but of the East not of Countries but of a poore village not of Latinists but of such as were borne and bred in Iurie where the natural speach of the place was Hebrewe Phi. Proue that to bee S. Hieroms meaning Theoph. They bee his woordes both before and after and those so plaine that I maruaile you could misse them In Christi vero vt supra diximus villula tota rusticitas extra Psalmos silentium est Quocunque te veteris arator stiuam tenens decantat Aallelu ia Sudans messor Psalmis se auocat curua attondens vite falce vinitor aliquid Dauidicum canit Haec sunt in hac prouincia carmina In the village of Christ as we haue said before there is nothing but rusticitie silence except it be in singing of psalmes Turne whither you wil in this village the husbandman holding his plough continually singeth Allelu ia The mower when he sweateth and is wearie refresheth himselfe with psalmes The Gardiner as he dresseth his vine with his hooke hath some peece of Dauid in his mouth These are the songes of this prouince or place What word or title is here for the seruice in the latine toung except you thinke that as the Pope claimeth to bee Lord of the whole worlde so euery Countrie throughout the worlde spake then nothing but Latine which were a merrie conceite to make sporte with if there were nothing looked for at your handes but laughter Phi. In sifting our authorities you take hold of euery nice and curious point which with good conscience we did and may despise Theo. Call you that a good conscience to muster out eleuen authorities as ancient and flat testimonies for defence of your errour against the woordr of God and the church of Christ and not one of them any way respecting that which you should would seeme to proue That no Nation in the Primatiue church East West North nor South had their diuine seruice in a tongue not vnderstood of themselues is our assertion You shew that in Italie and Africa where the people perfectly vnderstood the Romane tongue they had their seruice in Latine and that the barbarous of this Realme and husbandmen of Bethleem sang Allelu ia which S. Augustine saith all nations did yea the Barbarians as well as the Romanes without translating that or Amen into their barbarous languages Hence you collect the seruice alwaies in Latine throughout the West church and paint that note by the side of your booke to make the simple beleeue those places which are found in your text to proue it to be true though not one of theÌ„ whom you cite affirm or mention any such thing Whether this be to vse your owne wordes great ignorance of Iesuites or greater guilefulnes so vntruly and peruersly to wrest the fathers and whether you can be catholikes that haue no better ground for your Latine and vnknowen seruice within this Reame let the Reader iudge Phi. Augustine our Apostle brought into this Realme the seruice in the Latine tongue and there are well neere a thowsand yeares past since he came And therefore S. Bede saith lib. 1. hist. Ang. cap. 1. that being foure diuerse vulgar languages in our Countrie the Latine was made common to them all Theo. You thought it long belike before you made vp the ful dozen of peruerted and misconstered authorities You abuse Bede as you doe the rest and no maruell to see you so bold with him when you haue ventered on so many Phi. Doth he not say this Iland had foure diuerse languages of their owne and the Latine which was the fift was made common to them all Theo. Not by hauing their seruice in Latine but by meditating and searching the Scriptures a number in euery of those foure Nations had gotten the knowledge of the Latine tongue Phi. Then the Scriptures were not in any of those languages and consequently neither the Psalmes nor Lessons which are necessary partes of the Church Seruice Theo. Reason better or hold your peace you doe but wast time about trifles Bedes wordes are Haec in praesenti quinque gentium linguis vnam eandemque summae verâ—tatis verae sublimitatis scientiam scrutatur confitetur Anglorum videlicet Britonum Scotorum Pictorum Latinorum quae meditatione Scripturarum caeteris omnibus est facta communis This Iland at this present searcheth and confesseth one and the verie same knowledge of the hiest veritie and truest sublimitie with the tongues of fiue Nations to wit the Saxons Britons Scots Picts and Latines whose tongue by the meditation of the scriptures is become common to all the rest Meditation of the scriptures in all mens eares saue yours is the diligent and often perusing of them to get the right vnderstanding of them and not the Church Seruice as you would secretly inferre neither doth Bede deny that the Scriptures were hearde or reade in the other foure tongues which were proper to the foure Nations of this Iland but rather affirmeth it when he saith this Countrie searched and confessed one and the very same knowledge of the highest truth with the tongues of fiue Nations foure of them being the British Saxon Scottish and Piâ—tish tongue in which also they searched confessed the knowledge of the true God though the deeper and better learned of them in euery of those Nations for an exacter kinde of meditating and studying the Scriptures gate them some skill in the Latine tongue wherein the Scriptures were more sincerely written and more substantially handled than they coulde bee in any of the other tongues amongest the Saxons Scots or Britons in that raw and rude worlde so soone vppon their conuersion to the faith and long desolation before of learning religion and good manners Phi. The Latine tongue was common to them all Theo. Not to euery particular man amongest them but to some speciall men in those foure Nations that were willing and able to meditate the Scriptures And had it beene common to them al that is to euery one of them as you would presse it that construction helpeth you nothing at al. For then the people of this land being able to meditate the Scriptures in the latine toung might verie well haue their sâ—ruice in the latine tongue because it was a knowen tongue and such as they readily vnderstood but I thinke the other of the twaine the more likely
magis apposita The former diriuation of the word Mâ—ssa pleaseth me better as the likelier and not that it should signifie a sacrifice and be deriued from the Hebrew word Missà as Reuchline woulde deduce it And therefore he sayth Idem igitur mos a nostris etiam seruatur vt peractis sacris per Diaconum pronuncietur Ite missa est quod idem est ac ilicet id est ire licet The same maner is obserued of our men that at the ende of diuine seruice the Deacon should say ITE MISSA EST which is as if he sayd YOV MAY DEPART And that missa was vsual for missio he sheweth out of Cyprians epistles where he sayth remissa for remissio Rhenanus another of your friends giueth the like obseruation in his notes vppon the 4. booke of Tertullian against Marcion Hodie in fine Sacri Leuita pronunciat Ite missa est id est missio est quod olim in initio dicebatur antequam inciperentur videlicet ipsa mysteria Hinc iuxta vulgi consuetudinem Ambrosius missas facere dixit Propriè missa erat tempore Sacrificij quando Cathecumeni foras mittebantur At this day the Priest pronounceth at the end of his seruice Ite missa est that is go you haue leaue to depart which in the primatiue church was sayd in the beginning before they came to the celebration of the Sacraments Thence Ambrose vsed the word missam facere according to the vulgar custome of those tymes For properly missa was when the conuerts not yet baptized were sent away in the time of the sacrifice that is at what time the rest addressed themselues to be partakers of the Lords table And that missa was common for missio hee proueth by Tertullian and Cyprian in his booke de bono patientiae and epist. 14. And lest you shoulde thinke this to bee a phantasticall assertion of his without all ground or authoritie such as the most of your obseruations are hee telleth you that this mysterie of antiquitie is related in Isidores Lexicon And in deede so it is For Isidore sayth Missa tempore Sacrificij est quando Cathecumeni foras mittuntur clamaÌ„te Leuita si quis cathecumenus remansit exeat foras inde missa quia sacrameÌ„tis altaris interesse non possunt qui nonduÌ„ regenerati nascuntur Missa was about the tyme of the sacrifice when the learners and such as were not yet baptized were sent out of the Church the Leuite crying if any Cathecumene bee heere let him depart and thence is the word missa because they can not be present at the Sacrament of the Altar which are not yet regenerate And I thinke for very shame you would not séeme to be so foolish as to take missam Cathecumenorum which the fourth councell of Carthage doth mention in the place alleaged by your selues and likewise S. Austen in those very sermons which you cite as his for your Masse or Sacrifice For how can fit missa Cathecumenis stand either for the sacrament or sacrifice since the persons named were not baptized and consequently not to be admitted to any of the Church mysteries So that graunt the word missa were found oftner in the Fathers than it is you can thence conclude nothing for your Masse which you rudely and vnaduisedly thinke to be all one with their missa or missarum solemnia where in déede it is as contrarie to that which they spake of as poyson to an wholesome potion For missa with them did signifie the sending away of such as might not communicate with the rest at the Lords table the masse with you is the reall and actuall sacrificing of the sonne of God to his father and the setting of the people to gaze on the Priest whiles he alone deuoureth all and falsifieth the very words and actions of Christes institution Phil. Nay you falsifie both the words and déedes of Christes institution and though you gather out of Isidore and others that Missa in the ancient Fathers was the demising of such as might not be present at the Sacrifice and missa Cathecumenorum by no meanes can be our Masse yet touching our Sauiours institution of the blessed Sacrament we come néerer to this example than you do you missing it in most points that be essentiall and we following all his actions that are imitable Theop. What essentiall points do we misse Phil. Almost all Theop. Reason you named some Phil. You do not imitate Christ in blessing the bread and wyne nor in vnleauened bread and mingling water with wine nor in saying the words of consecration ouer the bread and wine you vse no confession before nor adoration of the blessed Sacrament at the receiuing of it A number of like defects there are in your communion which cause it to be no sacrament but common bread and wine Therfore imperet vobis Deus and confound you for not discerning his holy body and for conculcating the blood of the new Testament Theop. Kéepe your burning and cursing deuotion for your selues your manquelling and masse-mongring rage hath as much affinitie with Michaels praier beséeching God the diuell might be restrained as fiercenes and furie hath to patience and pietie If we haue altered any part of Christes institution curse on in Gods name and let your curses take effect But if the celebration of our mysteries be answerable to his will and word that first ordained them you curse not vs whome you would hurt but him that your cursed toongs can not hurt which is God to be blessed for euer and whose euerlasting curse will take hold of you if you relent not the sooner for your proude defiance and stately contempt of his truth in respect of your massing reuels and mummeries Philand Nay you are contemners of his true body and blood in this reuerent blessed and holy sacrament and breakers of his institution and therefore his curse will light on you Theop. Uaine spéech doth but spend time shew first wherein we breake Christes institution and for the truth of his presence in this Sacrament if we teach otherwise than the Scriptures and Fathers do warrant vs we are content to heare and beare the curse which blind zeale hath wrested from you Philand We shewed you euen now what things they were wherein you swarued from Christes institution Theoph. You must both repeate them and diuide them that we may the better discusse them Phil. I will Christ tooke bread into his hands applying this ceremonie action and benediction to it and did blesse the very element vsed power and actiue words vpon it as he did ouer the bread and fishes which he multiplied and so doeth the Church of God and so do not you if you followe your owne booke and Doctrine but you let the bread and cup stand aloofe and occupie Christes words by way of report and narration applying them not at all to the matter proposed to
hoc It is a common question what is ment by the pronoune THIS whether bread or the body of Christ Not bread for that is not the body of Christ nor yet the body of Christ for it appeareth not that there is any transubstantiation till the wordes be all pronounced To this demaund I say that by the word THIS nothing is ment but it is there put materially without anie signification at all Thus you turned and tossed the wordes of Christ so long till you brought all that the Lord did and saide at his last supper to plaine NOTHING With such vnchristian toyes were your scholes fraughted and the worlde deceiued such monsters you hatched when once you left the direction of the Scriptures and Fathers and fell to broaching your owne gesses But you must either admit our explication this breade is my body for the right ordering and perfitting of Christes wordes or else dissent from the manifest Scriptures from al the catholike Fathers and with shame enough from your owne fellowes and fansies Phi. Wee sticke not so much at the filling vp of the wordes which Christ spake as at the constering and expounding of them You delude them with tropes and significations as if Christ had beene speaking parables and not ordaining sacramentes Wee say there must be a reall truth and actiue force in them to perfourme the letter as it lieth For in Scripture so long as the letter may possibly be true we may not fly to figures Theo. In that you say right We must imbrace the sense which is occurant in the letter before all others if it agree with faith and good maners but if it crosse either of them we must beware the letter lest it kill and seeke for an other and deeper sense which must needes be figuratiue That direction S. Augustine giueth to al men when they read the Scriptures Iste omnino modus est locutionis inueniendae propriáne an figurata sit vt quicquid in sermone diuino neque ad morum honestatem nec ad fidei veritatem proprie referri potest figuratum esse cognoscas This is the perfect way to discerne whether a speech be proper or figuratiue that whatsoeuer in the word of God can not be properly referred either to integritie of maners or verity of faith thou resolue thy selfe it is figuratiue Phi. That prescription is very sound but it furthereth not your figuratiue sense For the letter of these wordes which we stand for is neither against faith nor good manners Theo. The literall acception of these words as they lie this bread is my body is first impossible by your owne confession next blasphemous by the plaine leuell of our Creede and lastly barbarous by the verie touch and instinct of mans nature Phi. Charge you Christ with so manie foule ouersightes in speaking the wordes Theo. The wordes which Christ spake be gratious and religious we know but where there may be brought a double construction of them a carnall or a spirituall a literall or a SacrameÌ„tall the literall construction which you will needes defend to deface the other is we say reproued as no part of our Sauiours meaning by those three barres which we proposed Phi. You propose much but you proue litle Theo. I should proue euen as much as you do if I should proue nothing but that which I proposed shall not want proofe The first your owne friendes will helpe me to proue Your Lawe saieth Hoc tamen est impossible quod panis sit corpus Christi Yet this is impossible that bread should be the body of Christ. Why striue you then for that which your selues grant is not possible to be true Why forsake you the mysticall interpretation which is possible what greater vanitie can you shewe than to cleaue to that sense which you see can not stande If it be bread how can it be Christ If it be Christ how can it be bread The second is as cleare For if breade in proper and precise speech bee the flesh of Christ ergo bread is also the feede of Dauid ergo breade was fastned to the crosse for our sinnes ergo bread was buried rose the third day from death and now sitteth in heauen at the right hand of God the Father nay no questioÌ„ if bread be Christ then is bread the Sonne of God and second person in the sacred Trinitie which how wel your stomaks can digest we know not in truth our harts tremble to heare an earthly dead and corruptible creature by your literall carnall deuotion aduaunced to the Lord of life grace the maker of heauen and earth yea the liuing and euerlasting God and yet if bread be truely and properly Christ these monsterous impieties you can not auoide Thirdly what could you deuise more iniurious and odious to christian mildnesse maners than the letter of these words eate you this is my flesh drinke you this is my blood Had you bin willed in as plain termes to cruciâ—ie Christ as you bee willed to eate his fleshe you woulde not I trust haue presently banded your selues with the Iewes to put him to death but rather haue staggered at the letter and sought for some farther and other meaning Yee be now willed to eate his flesh drinke his blood which is a precept far more hainous horrible in christian behauiour and religion if you follow the letter as AusteÌ„ affirmeth It appeareth more horrible to eate mans flesh than to kill it to drinke mans blood than to shed it And againe The Capernites were more excusable that coulde not abide the wordes of Christ which they vnderstood not being in deede horrible in that they were spoken as a blessing not as a cursing They thought saith Cyrill Christ had inuited them to eate the raw flesh of a man and drinke blood which thinges be horrible to the verie eares Why then presse you the letter which is hainous forget that the speech can not be religious except it be figuratiue Uerily S. Austen concludeth the speech to be figuratiue for this only reason If the scripture seeme to coÌ„mand any vile or ill fact the speech is figuratiue Except ye eate the fleshe of the son of man and drinke his blood you shall haue no life in you facinus velflagitium videtur iubere Christ seemeth to command a wicked sinfull act figura est ergo It is therefore a figuratiue speech commanding vs to be partakers of the Lords passion sweetly profitably to keep in mind that his flesh was crucified wouÌ„ded for vs. If then the real eating of Christs flesh with our mouthes and actuall drinking of his blood with our lips be wicked and hainous why presse you the letter of these wordes eate you this is my body drinke you this is my blood against truth against faith against nature neither possibility nor christianity nor coÌ„mon honestie suffering your exposition to be good S.
would conâ—uâ—e my selâ—e Theo. No the clearenes of trueth was such that you could not shadowe the beames of it and therefore in a brauerie you did admit it though now you would to your owlelight againe Phi. This is counsell to me I know not what you mean Theo. Dâ—d you not confesse it to bee very true thâ—t in this sacrament the signes after consecration did carie the names and effects of the things themselues Phi. Yeas I did Theo. Recaâ—t you that Phi. I doe not Theo. Then are the places which you brought for the reâ—l eating of Christs fleshe with your mouthes and teeth returned backe without your conclusiâ—n For the signes which are called after consecration by the names of â—hrists bodie and blood do enter our mouthes and passe our throates the true flâ—sh bloud of christ do not but â—re eaten at the Lords table only of the inward maÌ„ by faithful deuâ—tion and affâ—ctiâ—n preparing the hart that Christ may lodge there dwâ—ll there where hee dâ—lightâ—th and not in the mouthes and â—awes of men which is no place for him that sitâ—eth in heauâ—n whither we must flie with the spirituall wings of our soules and spirites before we can be paâ—takers of him Phi. You shall not so delâ—de me The Rule â— granted was veâ—y true but how proue you that these speeches muâ—t be so constâ—â—ed In other cases it may be true though not in this Theo. If the Rule which I laide downe be very true then your places can inâ—erre nothing â—or so much as the wordes which you brought may be spoken as well of the signes as of the things themselues and in that case the promises receiuing a double consâ—â—uction by your own confessâ—on how can your conclusion stand goâ—d importing that sense which is not only most doubted and least proued but â—laâ—ly denied by the same fathers in other places as I haue shewed Phi. Tutâ—e I will not be mocked wiâ—h such iâ—stes you shall answer thâ—m place by place as I cite them or els I wil not speake one word more Theo. You importune mee to spende time which nowe waxeth short but it will be the worse for your selfe your egernes without trueth will be your owne discredit and the more paâ—ticularly the more plainly it will appeare Phi. I haue aduantages in their wordes against your euasion which I will not omit Theo. In Augustine Chrysostome and Tertullian you haue vtterly none Austen saith that in honour of so great a Sacrament as this is it hath pleased the holie Ghost that the sacred and sanctified bread which after a sort is called the Lords bodie though indeed it be the signe Sacrament of his bodieâ— should enter the mouth before other meats that sâ—â—ue onely to feed nourish ouâ— fleshâ— Chrysostome saith It is no small honour that our mouth hath gotten by receiuing the sanctified bread after consecration countâ—d worthy to be called the Lords body though the nature of bread still remainâ— And indeed so is it no small both comfort and honour that God hath vouâ—saâ—ed to confirme and â—eale his mercies vnto vs with these elements that are câ—nuerted into our fâ—â—sh to shew vs that we are as reallie inuâ—sted strengthned with his grace and â—rueth as our bodies are nourisâ—ed and encreased with the sâ—gnâ—s and Sacraments of his grace And to that end Tertullian saith Our flâ—sh seedeth on the bread which Christ called his bodie and hath in it the â—ffâ—cts of his body that our soules might be replenished with God Phi. These be your corrections oâ— their speaches they be not their intentions Theo. Looke better to them and you shall finde that I haue added no wordes but such as them selues in other places haue delâ—uered to declare their owne both meaning and speaking Phi. The rest doe make for vs. Theo. Cyril saith nothing but that as the soul hath faith and grace to clense it and prepare it to eternall life so it was needfull that our rude and â—arthlie bodie should be brought to immortalitie by corporal and earthlie food that our bodies touching tasting and feeding on creatures like themselues might take them as pledges of our resurrection Gregorie comparing the two Passeouers the Iewes and ours and alluding to the storie of theirs â—aith The blood of our Passeouer is sprinckled on both Posts when it is drunke not onelie with the mouth of the bodie as the cup is which after the manner of Sacramentes is the Communion of Christes bloode but also with the mouth of the hart which is the true drinking of Christes blood Phi. We will none of that by your leaue you must graunt that in strict and precise speach according to the woordes the blood of Christ is drunke by the mouth of the bodie as well as by the mouth of the soule Theophil Hath the soule a mouth in strict and precise speach or hath shee lips to drinke according to the letter Phi. Would you make me such a foole as so to thinke Theo. Then if one part of the sentence be figuratiue why not the other If that which hee doth most vrge be not literall why shal the letter be eracted in the harder and vnlikelier part of the comparison If the whole be but an allusion whie eract you that strictnes and precisenes of the speach in either part It is not possible that one and the same thing should be reallie drunke by the mouth of the bodie and the mouth of the soul. If it be corporall how can it enter the soul If it be spirituall how can it enter the mouth And if those be Gregories wordes which your ownâ— Lawe assigneth to him in the verie same homilie his exposition shaketh your real presence more than all the authorities you can bring shall settle it Quidam non improbabiliter exponunt hoc loco carnis sanguinis veritatem ipsam eorundem efficientiam id est peccatorum remissionem Some not amisse doe expound the trueth of Christes flesh and blood in this place to be the verie efficience of the same things that is the remission of sins Take this construction with you bring out of Greg. or Leo what you can it wil not help the tight of a barely corne Phi. S. Leo saith You ought so to communicate at the sacred table that you doubt nothing of the trueth of the bodie and blood of christ Hoc enim ore sumitur quod fide creditur frustra ab illis Amen respondetur à quibus contra id quod accipitur disputatur For that is receiued with the mouth which is beleeued by our faith and in vaine doe they answer Amen which dispute against the thing that themselues receiue O noble Lion and such as all the heretikes in Europe will neuer encounter Theo. You speake like a Lion but the spite is your eares are too long to be taken for a beast of that metal You foolishly
say but what ancient Father euer said so before you yea rather why forget you that this is often refuted by them as a leude and hereticall fansie Doeth not Sainct Augustine of purpose debate the matter and in euident termes giue this flat resolution against you Doubt not saieth hee the man Christ Iesus to bee nowe there whence he shall come to iudgement but keepe in minde and holde assured the christian confession that he rose from the dead ascended into heauen sitteth now at the right hand of his Father and from thence from no place else shall come to iudge the quicke and the dead And so shall he come by the very witnesse of Angels as he was seene to goe into heauen that is in the verie same forme substance of his fleshe the whâ—ch hee hath endued with immortalitie not bereaued of the former nature According to this forme of his manhood wee must not thinke him to bee diffunded in euerie place For we must beware that wee doe not so defende the God-head of a man that wee take from him the trueth of his body It is no good consequent that which is in God should bee euerie where as God himselfe is One person is both God and man and one Christ Iesus is both these euerie where as he is God in heauen as he is man Dout not I say that Christ our Lord is euerie where present as God but in some one place of heauen by the meanes of his true bodie And againe Let vs giue the same eare to the holy Gospell that we would to the Lord himselfe if he were present The Lord is aboue in heauen but the trueth is here which also the Lord is The body in which hee rose β can be but in one place â— his trueth is euery where dispersed Doeth not Vigilius a blessed Martyr and Bishoppe of Trident vpholde the verie same point against Eutyches and his accursed companions The fleshe of Christ sayeth hee WHEN IT WAS IN EARTH SVRELY WAS NOT IN HEAVEN AND NOWE BECAVSE IT IS IN HEAVEN CERTAINLIE IT IS NOT IN EARTH yea so farre it is from being in earth that wee looke for Christ after the flesh to come from heauen whom as hee is God the word we beleeue to be with vs in earth Then by your opinion either the worde is comprised in a place as well as the flesh of Christ or the flesh of Christ is euery where togither with the worde seeing one nature doeth not receiue in it selfe any different and contrary state Now to be contained in a place and to be present in euerie place be thinges diuerse and verie dislike and for so much as the word is euery where and the fleshe of Christ not euery where it is cleare that one and the same Christ is of both natures that is euerie where according to the nature of his diuinitie contained in a place according to the nature of his humanity This is the catholike faith and confession which the Apostles deliuered the Martyrs confirmed and the faithful persist in to this day Doth not Fulgentius handle the same question and precisely trace the steps of Sainct Augustine and Vigilius One and the same sonne of God hauing in him the trueth of the diuine and humane nature lost not the proprieties of the true Godhead and tooke also the proprieties of the true manhead one and the selfesame locall by that he tooke of man and infinite by that he had of his Father one and the verie same according to his humane substaunce absent from heauen when hee was in earth and forsaking the earth when hee ascended to heauen but according to his diuine and infinite substaunce neither leauing heauen when hee came downe from heauen neither departing from earth when hee ascended to heauen The which may bee gathered by the most certaine wordes of the Lord himselfe I ascend to my Father and your Father Howe coulde he ascende but as a locall and true man or howe can hee bee present with the faithfull but as an infinite and true God not as if the humane substance of Christ might bee euery where diffunded but because one and the same Sonne of God albeit according to the trueth of his manhead hee were then locally placed on earth yet according to his Godhead which in no wise is concluded in any place hee filled heauen and earth This true manhead of Christ which is locall as also his true Godhead which is alwayes infinite wee see taught by the Doctrine Apostolicall For that Paul might shewe the bodie of Christ as of verie man to bee contayned in a place he sayeth to the Thessalonians You turned to God from idolles to serue the liuing and true God and to looke for his Sonne from heauen declaring that hee surely shoulde corporally come from heauen whom he knewe to bee corporally raysed from the dead His conclusion is this Whereas then the fleshe of Christ is proued without question to bee contained in a place yet his Godhead is at all times euerie where by the witnesse of Paul c. These bee no wrested or maymed allegations but graue and aduised authorities of learned and auncient Fathers plainely concluding with vs against you that the fleshe of Christ is not absent onely from earth and nowe sitteth aboue at the right hande of GOD but also locally contayned in some one place of heauen by reason of the trueth of his bodie and therefore not dispersed in many places or present in euerie place as you would nowe make the world beleeue it is in your Masses Philand This was spoken of the shape but not of the substance of Christs bodie For Sainct Augustine sayeth Secundum hanc formam non est putandus vbique diffusus according to this externall shape and forme we must not thinke him euerie where diffused and yet the trueth and substaunce of his bodie may bee in many places at one time Theop. You forget that the rest say nature and substaunce as Vigilius Circumscribitur loco per naturam carnis suae Christ is circumscribed with place by the nature of his flesh and Fulgentius Secundum humanam substantiam derelinquens terram cum ascendisset in coelum according to his humane substaunce leauing the earth when hee ascended into heauen and againe Non quia humana Christi substantia fuisset vbique diffusa not as if the humane substaunce of Christ should bee euerie where diffunded By the which it is cleare that neither the forme nor substaunce of Christes bodie can be present in many places at one time And what doeth Sainct Augustine meane by the word forme but the perfection and trueth of mans nature as Ambrose Leo Chrysostome others doe What is sayeth Ambrose in the forme of God in the nature of God I demaund sayeth Leo what is ment by this taking the
failing or changing Phi. That we beleeue Theo. How theÌ„ can the manhood of Christ be in many places at one time Or how can it in any place or time be without shape quantitie circumscription and such like proprieties of mans nature Phi. In heauen it hath them Theo. If they can not be changed or altered the manhoode of Christ must haue them not in heauen only but in earth also in euery place where the substance of his bodie is Philand Saue in the Sacrament Theophi If that be the same bodie which was on the Crosse it must haue the same natural proprieties of a body which that had Phi. It hath as many as it may Theo. It must haue as many as it should Phi. Which be they Theo. Proportion of shape distinction of parts extension of quantitie circumscription of place and the very same substance of fleshe which hee tooke of his mother Marie Phi. You name these things which you see bee not in the Sacrament Theophi I name those which the manhood of Christ must haue wheresoeuer it be Phi. Must haue What necessitie is in that Theo. As much as the denying of your faith contradicting of his trueth For these proprieties the body had that hung on the Crosse and without these hee can be no true man Philan. In heauen we tell you he hath them Theophil And in the Sacrament wee tell you â—ee hath them not Ergo the manhoode of Christ is not in the Sacrament Phi. Cannot Christ be where he list without those consequents Theo. His bodie can not Phi. Doe not you nowe deny him to be omnipotent Theophi Doe not you now alleadge his power to frustrate both his will and your faith Philand You hold christ cannot if he would Theo. We say christ would not though he could And since his will is euident by his worde as our common faith auoucheth you doe wickedly to crosse his will with his power and make his might attendant on your follies Dei velle posse est non posse nolle The power of God which we must stand on is his wil and that which he will not that he cannot You must not therefore imagine what you list and then ground vpon the power and strength of GOD it is error and impietie whatsoeuer is repugnant to his trueth and to father your falsehoodes on his almightie power is irreuerent and insolent blasphemie Phi. You doe not so much as confesse that he can doe it and that causeth vs to suspect you doubt of Gods omnipotencie Theo. Because we suffer you not to vnload your absurdities and impieties on Gods power at your pleasures Philand First graunt hee can doe it and of that wee will commune afterward Theo. What shall I graunt Phi. That Christ according to his corporall presence may be in many places at one time if it please him Theo. What then shal become of S. Austen that said Christ could not concerning his corporall presence be at one time in the sunne in the moone and on the crosse And of S. Cyril affirming that Christ could not be conuersant with his Apostles after he once ascended If hee could not bee in three places at one time how could hee bee in moe If not in earth when he was in heauen how both in heauen and earth as you your selues conceiued and woulde haue vs confesse And yet the thing which we withstand is far more impossible than this For the manhoode of Christ by the tenour of the christian faith hath and must haue after his ascension humane shape partes length breadth both extended circumscribed and otherwise to thinke is the wicked and cursed opinion of Eutyches condemned long since by the church of God for a meere impietie You to auoide the burdeÌ„ of that sentence confes these properties are must be permaneÌ„t in the body which our sauiour tooke of the virgin wherein he now sitteth at the right hand of God his father marie the selfesame bodie you defend to bee in the sacrament without shape partes length or breadth either extended or circumscribed which is wee say simplie impossible For shaped not shaped extended not extended circumscribed not circumscribed be plaine contradictions those of one thing at one time are not possible Phi. Is any thing impossible to God Theo. Doth not the Apostle say Negare seipsum non potest God cannot deny himselfe Impossibile est Deum mentiri it is impossible that God should lie S. Austen well noteth Dicitur omnipotens faciendo quod vult non patiendo quod non vult vnde propterea quaedam non potest quia est omnipotens God is said to be omnipotent in doing that he will not in suffering that hee will not And therefore can he not doe some things because he is omnipotent And S. Ambrose likewise Quid ergo ei impossibile Non quod virtuti arduum sed quod naturae eius contrarium What then is impossible to God not that which passeth his power but that which is contrarie to his nature Impossibile istud non infirmitatis sed virtutis maiestatis quia veritas non recipit mendacium nec Dei virtus leuitatis errorem This impossibilitie proceedeth not of infirmitie but of might and maiestie because the trueth of God admitteth not a lie nor the power of God any note of inconstancie So that all changes against his nature or falshoods against his trueth bee vtterly impossible to GOD and that because hee is almighty Phi. That we know Theo. Then this also you must needs know that contradictions be impossible for of theÌ„ if one part be true the other is euer false and that God should be false it is not possible You must therfore either with Eutyches affirme the manhood of christ to be changed from his former shape partes quantitie and circumscription and consequently from his former substance or els against religion and learning reason and sense defend contradictions that is trueth and falshoode to bee possible both at one time which is nothing but to make God a liar in his workes as you be in your wordes for maintaining that error Phi. At diuers times and in 〈…〉 contradictions may bee true Theo. There can be but one part 〈…〉 other at the same instant is ineuitablie false and as for your 〈…〉 the proprieties of christes bodie which wee speake of bee absâ—lute and inherent necessities no relations nor comparisons you may keepe them for some better â—art in this assertion they will doe you no seruice Phi. What if we say the bodie of christ in the Sacrament hath the same proportion of shape extension of partes and circumscription of place which it hath in heauen how can you refell vs Theo. Neuer take the paiâ—es to incur new contradictions a shorter answer will serue you for all and that is say you beleeue you cannot tell what For otherwise men
and other places at this day do wee not indure all the tormentes you can deuise because wee will not beleeue what temporall Lordes and Masters list Your owne conscience knoweth it is true that wee saie Why then doe you charge vs with this wicked assertion from the which wee bee farther off than you For you holde opinion of Popes that they cannot erre we do not of Princes Why do you father your owne fansies vppon vs Why d ee you purposely peruert the question heaping absurdities and alleaging authorities against that which we do not defend Phi. The oth which you take your selues and exact of others induceth vs thus to thinke of you For there you make Princes the onely supreme Gouernours of all persons in all causes as well spirituall as temporall vtterly renouncing all forraine iurisdictions superiorities and authorities Uppon which wordes marke what an horrible confusion of all faith and Religion insueth If Princes bee the onely Gouernours in Ecclesiasticall matters then in vaine did the holy Ghost appoint Pastours and Bishops to gouern the Church If they bee supreme then are they superiour to Christ himselfe and in effect Christes Masters If in all thinges and causes spirituall then they may prescribe to the priestes and Bishops what to preach which way to worship and serue God how in what forme to minister the Sacramentes and generally howe men shall be gouerned in soule If all forraine iurisdiction must bee renounced then Christ his Apostles because they were are forreners haue no iurisdiction nor authoritie ouer England A thowsand other absurdities are consequent to this oth which anon you shall heare Theo. Wake you or dreame you Philander that in matters of no lesse weight than your duetie to God and the Prince you fall to these childish and pelting sophismes What kinde of concluding call you this Princes onely beare the sword to commaund and punish ergo Bishops may not teach and exhort Princes be not subiect to the Pope ergo superiours to Christ. They may by their lawes establish those thinges that Christ hath commaunded ergo they may change both Scriptures and Sacramentes No forrainer at this day hath any iurisdiction ouer this Land ergo Christ and his Apostles fifteene hundred yeeres ago might not preach the Gospel Phi. We make no such fond reasons Theo. The former propositions are the true contens of the oth which wee take the later are those very absurdities which you infer vpon vs for taking that oth Phi. You would slip from your words which wee knowe to your meaning which we know not but that you shal not We grouÌ„ded our absurdities vpoÌ„ the words of your oth For if princes be supreme gouernors in al spiritual things causes ergo they be supreme iudges of faith deciders of controuersies interpreters of scriptures deuisers of ceremonies appointers of sacrameÌ„ts what not The. You might euen as well haue coÌ„cluded princes be supreme gouernors in al teÌ„poral things causes ergo they be supreme guiders of graÌ„mer moderators of Logik directors of Rhetorik appointers of Musike prescribers of Medicines resoluers of al doubtes iudges of al matters incident any way to reason art or actioÌ„ If this be leud irreuereÌ„t iesting yours is no better Ph. I promise you we iest not The. The more shame for you if you be in earnest to conclude so loosely Phi. Do you make princes supreme gouernors of al spiritual things Theo. You reason as if we did but our words since you wil needes rest vpon wordes are not so Phi. What are they then The. We coÌ„fesse them to be supreme gouernors of their Realms DominioÌ„s Phi. And that in al spriritual things causes The. Not of al spiritual things causes Ph. What differeÌ„ce between those two speeches Theo. Iust as much as excludeth your wrangling Wee make them not gouernors of the things themselues but of all their subiectes which I trust you dare not withstand Phi. I grant they be gouernors of their subiects but not in Ecclesiasticall things or causes They must leaue those matters for Bishops whoÌ„ Christ hath appointed to be yâ— rulers of his church And therfore your oth yeelding that power to princes which is proper to Bishops is repugnant to the lawes of God the church nature Yea it is an euideÌ„t error reproueable by al humane diuine learning that the souerainty or supremacy in causes Ecclesiasticall is by nature or by christian lawes implied in the right title of a temporal king or that it euer was due or can be due to any temporall gouernor heathen or christiaÌ„ in the world And if you will but giue eare you shal heare what a number of absurdities we wil fasten vpon you The. This oth is a great eye sore with you and I remember I promised to discusse the same in this chapter I will therefore first examine the chiefe parts of it and after you shall obiect against it what you can Where we professe that her Highnes is the onely gouernor of this Realme the word gouernor doth seuer the magistrate from the minister sheweth a manifest differeÌ„ce between their office For Bishops be no gouernors of countries princes be that is Bishops bear not the sword to reward reuenge princes do Bishops haue no power to command punish princes haue This appeareth by the words of our Sauiour expressely forbidding his Apostles to be rulers of nations leauing it to princes The kings of nations rule ouer their people and they that be great ones exercise authority With you it shal not be so that is you shall neither beare rule nor exercise authority ouer your brethren Phi. The word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they ouerrule their subiects with iniustice violence you shal not do so Theo. So your new translatioÌ„ ouer ruleth the word howbeit Christ in that place doth not traduce the power of princes as vniust or outragious but distinguisheth yâ— calling of his Apostles froÌ„ the maner of regimeÌ„t which God hath allowed the magistrate Christ â—aith not princes bee tyrantes you shal deale more curteously than they do but he saith Princes bee Lords and rulers ouer their people by Gods ordinaÌ„ce you shal not be so Again the word which S. Luke hath is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without any composition They be Lords and masters S. Paul confesseth of himselfe other Apostles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Not that we be Lords or Masters of your faith yea the compound 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is with power force to rule meÌ„ whether they will or no not with wrong iniury to oppresse them therefore the conclusion is ineuitable that princes may lawfully compell punish their subiects which Bishops may not This distinction between them is euident by their seueral coÌ„missions which God hath signed The prince not the priest beareth the sword ergo the prince not
bee called Church Seruice And where S. Paul by precept from God commaunded all things in the Church both praying and preaching to be doone in such sort as the people might vnderstand say Amen and be edified thereby you conster that of certaine voluntary prayers which some priuate men made in the Church without commission and of the publike and necessary prayers of the Church you holde opinion the people neede not vnderstand them nor say Amen nor looke to bee edified by them And because S. Paul speaketh of preaching as well as of praying you vse the one as an argument to exclude the other which is very bad logike and worse diuinitie You were as good make this for a reason as I warned you in the beginning Christians in their Churches haue sermons ergo they haue neither prayers nor Sacraments which your selfe censured for a very childish and foolish argument Phi. That is no conclusion of ours Theo. Weigh it well and you shall find it the very same that you make For where the Christians vnder the Apostles had in their assemblies first prophesying that is the declaring of Gods wil and reuealing of his word at the which Infidels and newe conuerts not yâ—t baptized might be present and next prayers and Psalmes to celebrate the goodnes and kindnes of God and to prepare their mindes for the Lordes table to the which all the faithfull came with one consent of heart and voyce giuâ—ng thanks to God for their redemption in Christ and blessing his holy name for al the rest of his graces mercies and compassions on them and this was doone by the mouthes of such Pastours and ministers as it pleased the holy ghost to direct inspire for that function and action the people hearing vnderstanding and confirming their prayers and thankes with saying Amen and other diuine Seruice than this they had none you take one part of the Churches exercise whereat Infidels might be which was preaching and declaring the word of God as a strong inference that Saint Paul in that whole chapter though he expressely name the publike praiers psalmes blessings thankesgiuings of the Church meaneth no part of the Church seruice which if you well consider you shall perceiue to bee captious if not ridiculous sophistrie Philand Though Saint Paul speake of many things yet he speaketh not one woorde of Church-seruice which is the point that wee stand on Theo. I pray you what is Church-seruice but Church prayers Psalmes and lessons which because Saint Paul so distinctly reciteth hee can not choose we say but meane the Church-seruice vnlesse you can shewe what seruice the church had or hath besides these which hee nameth Phi. The ministration of the sacraments is none of these which you specifie and yet the chiefest part of the church-seruice and so are other rites which you omit Theo. In the Church-seruice actions may bee necessarie and Rites may bee seemely of which Saint Paul speaketh not because the abuse which hee reprooued was in their tongues and not in their handes but the Church-seruice is properly that which is doone with the mouth for GOD is not serued with moouing or vsing the handes but our lippes shewe forth his prayse and with our voyces wee cal vpon him and this is more rightly termed diuine seruice which is all one with Church-seruice than any corporall acâ—ions or outwarde gestures though they bee lawfull and some of them needeâ—ull as those for example which Christ commanded And euen in the ministration of the Lordes supper woordes are essentiall as well as elements or actions and without words it is both a dumbe action and a dead element In all sacramentes the word that is spoken is farre superiour to the creature that is seene and in this Sacrament by the first institution of our sauiour thankesgiuing is as requisite as eating or drinking Wherefore if S. Paul tooke order for the praiers psalms blessings and thankesgiuing vsed in the Church that they should be vnderstoode of the people as wel as the Doctrines Reuelations and expositions of scriptures which were an other and a necessarie part of the Churches exercise S. Paul we conclude required that all Church seruice should be pronounced in such â—ort and with such speach as the hearers might bee edified and say Amen which they can not to a tongue that they know not Or if that illation seeme not strong enough S. Paul in plain words commaundeth as authorized from God that all things and therefore Church seruice shoulde bee doone to edification and no man is edified by that he vnderstandeth not which is the fault that we find with your Latine Seruice in our Churches where the people vnderstand no tongue but English Phi. Yeas sir the pople in euery Countrie vnderstandeth our seruice For by the diligence of parents Masters and Curats euery Catholike of age almost can tell the sense of euery Ceremonie of the Masse what to answere when to say Amen at the Priests Benediction when to confesse when to adore when to stand when to kneele when to receiue what to receiue when to come when to depart and all other duties of praying and seruing sufficient to saluation Theo. He that hath no better stay must leaue to a broken staffe or lie in the ground You feared to be conuinced as withstanders of S. Pauls Doctrine and therefore you bethought your selues of an other shift which is as bad as the former The Apostle proueth the praiers of the Church must be vnderstood of the people because they must say Amen thereby teaching vs that no man may say Amen except he both perceiue what is saide and also confesse it to be true for otherwise Amen is both a mocke and a lie to no worse person than to God himselfe He that sweareth or affirmeth any mans speach to bee true when he knoweth not what he said is a liar And he that giueth a sound with his mouth his hart not knowing what he asketh maketh a iest of praier and forgetteth himselfe to be a man And for that cause S. Paul vrgeth it as a manifest absurditie for the people to say Amen to that which they vnderstand not though the ministers speach in it selfe be neuer so good and godly This you saw was so apparent that though you cauiled about Church seruice and craked of your inuincible arguments Yet the clearnes of saint Pauls wordes would reach home to the vnfruitfulnes of your Latin seruice in this Realme For his wordes are How shal the vulgar man say Amen at thy thankesgiuing in the Church seeing hee knoweth not what thou sayest And therefore you resolued since you were ouer the shoes in absurdities to goe vp to the shoulders and southâ—astly to say that in euery Countrie euery Catholike of age almost can tell the sense of euery ceremonie of the Masse what to answere where to say Amen at the Priests benediction and all other duties of praying and seruing sufficient to
saluation Your memory did not serue you to ioyn Mattins Euensong and Dirges to your Masse which you might haue doone with as good reason and as much trueth otherwise we had had al the Papists in Christendom promoted by one sentence of your Testament to so suddaine and perfect knowledge that they were able to vnderstand al your Latine seruice That you found would seeme a wonder in the eyes of all men learned and vnlearned and therefore you restraine the vnderstanding first to the Masse then to the ceremonies of the masse then to the sense of these ceremonies as when to stand when to kneele when to confesse when to adore when to come when to depart and all this no farther than may suffice for saluation and not in al of them but almost in euery Catholike or to say the trueth you know not in whom Surely this is a deepe insight that al your Catholikâ— if they be not learned haue in your masse to confesse if they could tell what when they see the Clerk kneele by the Priests side to adore when they see the host and chalice ouer the Priests head to stand when the Priest chaungeth his deske from one end of the altar to an other if they chauÌ„ce too see him to kneele when the sauÌ„ce bel ringeth once a yeare to come to receiue when masse is done and the priest in his Albe at other tunes to depart when he whippeth off his vestiment This is the best cunning that your formallest and forwardest Catholikes haue if they be not learned in the Latine tongue The rude simple people of your side they do as they see their neighbours and that is all the skil they haue in your ceremonies as for answering and saying Amen they must pray for those that can your parish Clerke can keepe his kewe by often vse otherwise neither he nor the most of your Priests vnderstand what they say This is all the edification your masse bringeth to the vnlearned hearers if this suffice for saluation S. Paul was out of the way to prefer fiue words spoken in the church with vnderstanding before ten thousand in a strange and vnknowen language Phi. If the people say Amen it is enough Theo. If they know not what is said they may not say Amen Phi. That is your error Theo. We are content to hold that error so long as we haue the precise words of S. Paul for it How shal he that supplieth the room of the vnlearned say AmeÌ„ seeing he knoweth not what thou saist It is not enough to mark the gestures of him that saith masse nor to heare the saunce bel ring nor to follow the Quire when they sing Amen the people must know what is said before they may giue their consents and therfore except they vnderstand the praiers of the Church well they may kneele and stand come and goe as often as they liâ—t but Amen by S. Pauls Rule they may not answere Phi. They could not in those daies answere Amen so wel as our hearers can for that they had no such rites to direct them when to say Amen as we haue Theo. As though it had beene an hard matter for the Apostle to haue willed the speaker to hold vp his finger or giue some other signe at the end of his praier and all the people to say Amen saue that the holy Ghost would prescribe not gestures for men to gaze at as on stages but words for them to heare and vnderstand that the heart might be ioyned with the lips in praying vnto God and perceiue the trueth of that which was spoken afore the tongue pronounced Amen Phi. I tell you it is not necessarie to vnderstand our praiers Theo. I tell you that if Satan himselfe were clothed in a friers weede he could not lay a fairer foundation for impietie and Apostasie than this is Phi. Neuer think to fray vs with words we be no children nor fooles Theo. If you were your sinne were the lesse but nowe you are without excuse It is the commaundement of God it is the Apostles Doctrine it is our Christian dutie without it the praiers which we make be fruitlesse vaine and barbarous and yet you say it is not necessarie S. Paul hauing prescribed this Rule to the Churches of Corinth that nothing should be doone at their meetings neither in preaching nor praying but that which might profite edifie euen the vulgar and simpler sort addeth If any man think himselfe to be spirituall let him acknowledge that the things which I write vnto you are the commandements of the Lord. The Ephesians he teacheth to be filled with the spirit and to sing and tune Psalmes in their harts to the Lord. Now the heart doth not sing except it vnderstand For the sound or voice of the hart is vnderstanding as S. Augustine very wel obserueth coÌ„menting vpon the psalmes of Dauid Beatus populus qui intelligit iubilationem Curramus ergo ad hanc beà titudinem intelligamus iubilationeÌ„ non eam sine intellectu fundamus Blessed is the people that vnderstand what they sing Let vs hasten to this blessednes let vs vnderstand what we sing let vs not poure forth songs that we vnderstand not To what purpose is it to sing and not to vnderstand what we sing that our voice should chant it not our heart Sonus enim cordis est intellectus The sounde or tune of the heart is vnderstanding And shewing that this is not only a Christian dutie which is a sufficient necessitie but euen the plain condition of our Creation that wee bee not like the beasts which sing they know not what he saith Hauing besought the Lord by this Psalm that he would clense vs from our secret faults We ought to vnderstand what this meaneth Vt humana ratione non quasi auium voce cantemus that we may sing with reason as men and not chatter like birdes For Owsels Parrets Crowes Pies and such other birds are often taught by men to sound that they know not marie to know what they sing is by Gods wil giuen not to birds but vnto men Therefore deere brethren that which we haue soung with one consent of voice we ought to know perceiue with a cleare heart So Chrysostome I will pray with the spirit saith Paul but I will pray also with vnderstanding I wil sing with the spirite but I wil sing also with vnderstanding Heereby the Apostle teacheth that we ought in our praiers to speake with our tongue and with all to haue our minds vnderstand what is spoken And Ambrose If the end of your meaning be to edifie the Church such things ought to be spoken in your prayers and blessings as the hearers may vnderstand For what profite commeth by thisâ— that any man should speak in a language which he alone vnderstandeth and he that heareth is no whit the better for it Therefore such an
to be 373. l. 29. precepts r. presence 38. seales r. seates p. 385. m. stay say 393. m. in the praier r. in the praise p. 407. m. what faces r. what forces 421.15 others r. othes 423. l. 37. Foroniliensem r. Foroiuliensem p. 42â— l. 11. Rhemish r Romish p. 430. l. 9. Frederike r. Lodouike 439. l. 25. both r. but. p. 448. l. 43. Pauia r. Papia 450. m r lesse then their 474. l. 8. restrained r. restored p. 485. l. 20. of Nations r. of al Nations p. 502. wee damned r. we be damned 505. l. 37. They had r. Theo. they had 508.9 10. lines dele p. 512. m. wars r. words p. 513. m. manifest r. manifold p. 548. l. 32. though r. ought 551. l. 12 restraining r. esteeming 567. l. 23. aequè r. deductuÌ„ aequè 571 l. 29. saluation r. salutation â— 574.11 God r. gods 586.38 satiâ—factâ—oÌ„ r. sanctiâ—icâ—tion p. 605. l. 30. fond r foode 607. l. 8. Phi. r. Theoph. p. 636 l. 7. We. r. Phil. We. p. 713. m. doth proue r. doeth not proâ—e 734 l. 3. to the r. to be the. p. 743. l. 33. my life r. any life 758. l. 20. that is r. this is p. 759. m. iâ— eaten r. is not eaten 760. is pressed r. is not pressed 762. l. 38. promises r. premises p. 773.17 present r. pleasant 782. m. vide Antonium r. vide Antoninum Quotations in the margent either wanting or falsly printed P. 10. lib. imperf r. lib. imper 2. p. 13. lib. 10. r. lib. 1. p. 14. tract 50. r. tract 5 p. 20. 2. Cor. 34 r. 2. Chro. 34. p. 48 idem lib. 3 r. lib. 2. p. 57. epist. 90. r. 91. Ibid. in ep 90. r. 91. p. 66. distin 39. r. 93. p. 136.37 31. r 37. 38. p. 137. Nouell consâ—it 123.133 r. consâ—it 5.123.133 p. 157. cap. 74. r. 78. p. 161. Esaie 6. r. Esaie 60. p. 206. Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 4. r. 34. p. 230. Concil Afric cap. 29. r. 92. p. 237. lib. cap. 37. r. lib. 1. cap. 37. p. 259. hom 2. r. hom 21. p. 262. 1. Cor. 17. r 1. Cor. 11. p. 265. definit 8. r. definit 80. p. 270. Socr. lib. 1. ca. 2. r. lib. 2. cap 20.271 câ— 52.1.53.276 cap. 33. r. cap. 31.295 tit 22. cap. 3. r. cap. 4.3.297 Socr. lib. 4. c. r. Sozom. lib. 4. cap. 15.344 1. Cor. r. 1. Cor 5.346 Mat. 16. r. Mat. 10.347 1 Iohn 10. r 2 Iohn 1 351. cap 5 r. Act. 5 p. 372. lib r lib 5.377 1480 r 1580 ibid. 8. Tim r 1 Tim 2 ibâ—â— â—e em 19 r 29 417 fol 888 r. 288 422 gener 23 r gener 24 5â—7 lib 5 r lib 8 581 tract 44 r 49 625 expos 1. r expoâ— 2.753 octoâ—â— taâ—â—m r octoginta trium Quotations wanting 23 to the l 38 Theod lib 4. cap 1 45 l 1 Athaâ— apol contr Arian 385 l r in Iohn lib 12 cap 96. Apol. chap. 3. Campian in his 2 article fol. â—7 * fol. 38 fol. 10 * fol. 12 The dispensation of Campian Parsons In their cases of conscience the 55. Arti. The Defence of Catholikes the 5. chap. In the third part of this booke In the second part In the first part In the fourth part The chiefest matters of the Apologie Cap. 1. Cap. 4. Cap. 2. Cap. 5. Cap. 6. The 8 chapter of their Defence page 177. The summe of the Defence a 1 cap. b 2 cap. c 4 cap. See pa. 19. cap. 6. The defence cap. 7. fol. 140. I catch not after cauils nor vse to seek for nouelties as hauing to doe with carping quicke eyed aduersaries Part. 4. pag. 583. Part. 1. pag. 53. Chrysost. epi. 1. ad Innocen The Iesuites disguised They complaine of crueltie They be curious to disclose themselues They pretend obedience They commend themselues Apolog. cap. 5. Sententiarum ex August decerptarum 118. Prouer. 27. Camp in Epist. ad praeposituÌ„ ordinis general The Iesuites answere this proclamation with vaunting of their priuate orders exercises No one thing prooued in all their Apol. Apolog. cap. 1. Sect. 8. The causes why they fled the Realme Our sacrifice Our Sacraments Our diuine seruice An answer like their Apologie The proofes places of their whole Apolo answered in sixe leaues The 1. chapter of the Apolog. Socrat. eccl 〈◊〉 lib. 2. ca. 18 lib. 4. ca. 12.16 Niceph lib. 11. ca. 49.50 Amb. lib. 5. de Bas. traden Cyp. epist. 5. Niceph. lib. 9. chap. 23. Sect. 8. The second Chapter of the Apologie Hiero. Epist. 16. Euseb. lib. 4. Cap. 22. Hiero. praef lib. 2. in Epist. ad Gal. August de vtilit cred Cap. 17. Cypri Epi. 55. See folio 222. The third Chapter of the Apolo Hiero. Epist. 8. ad Demetriadem The fourth Chap. of the Apolog. Luc. 22.10 Mat. 16.28.18 Ioh. 14.16 Esa. 59. Deut. 17. Mala. 2. Act. 15. 1. Cor. 14. 1. Tim. 2. 1. Pet. 2. Esa. 60. August contra Cresco lib. 3. ca. 51. Agust Epi. 48. Acts. 20. Hebr. 23. Nazian ora 15. * Epist. ad solit vit degentes * Suidas in Leon. Lib. imperf ad Constantium * Epist. 33. ad for 1. Iohn 4. Mat. 7. Lib. 2. de Sacer. Ibidem Ambro. de dignitat sacerdoâ—ali Cap. 2. August de agone Christi Cap. 30. Epist. 57. aâ— Damas. The 5. Chap. of the Apolog. Enchiri 110. haeresi 53. Contra Vigilantium Lib. 6. contra Iulianum In 10. Cap. ad Hebreos Lib. 7. ind 2. Epist. 109. 53. Lib. 1. de paenit Cap. 2. Argumentum Epistolae aduersus Vigilantium Hierom aduersus Vigilant August de cura pro mortuis gerenda ca. 1. Augu. Enchir. ca. 110. Augu. Enchir. ca. 69. August de ciuiâ—at Dei lib. 21. â—a 27. Disputat Athanas contra Arium Laodic habita August contra Maximinum Arrian Epist. lib. 10. Rom. 10. Basil. sermo de fide The 6. Chapter of the Apologie Iren. lib. 4. ca. 32. Cyp. epist. 63. Chry. homil 17. in Epi. ad Heb. Amb. in Psal. 38. Conc. Nic. ca. 14. Hier. epist. 1. ad Heliod Leo. ep 81. ca. 2. Amb. li. 5. ep 33. Cyp. ep 5. Au. de ciu Dei li. 22. ca. 8. lib. 10. conf ca. 12.13 Euseb. in vita Const. li. 4. ca. 45. Chry. de sacerd Amb. in 1. Tim. 4. Greg. li 2. ep 9.93 lib. 7. ep 63. lib. 77. ep 57. ad 3. interrog Aug. Concil Cartha ginensis 4. Canon 84. Iâ—e missa est Goe your way depart Sâ—mo 237. de tempore sub nomine August Ambros. Lib. 5. Epist. 33. Missam facere not dicere Masse and yet no masse-Priests Inter August Epist. 31.34.35 Grego Lib. 1. Epist. 72.86 Lib. 3. Epist. 30. Lib. 5. Epist. 6. Lib. 7. Epist. 53.126 Cyprian Epistola 55. Leo Epist. 89. Cyprian de vnitate Eccles. August in Ioh. tract 50. Idem in Ioh. tracta 124. Gal. 2. Iohn 20. The 7. Chap. of the Apolo Not one place more in all the Apologie touching vs than here is answered Apolog. Cap. â—
Sect. 2. Strangers haue not diuers religions in this Realm 1. Cor. 14. Epist. 118. Apol. chap. 1. sect 2. Papists may be forced to trueth Forcing to religion without former promis Daniel 6. Ionas 3. Episto 50. Acts. 9. August Epistola 50. Munster Cosmogra lib. 4. fol. 894.902 Idem lib. 3. fol. 719.743 Apolog. Cap. 1. sect 2. 1. Cor. 1. Mark 16. Al men boūd by Baptisme vnto truth Gal. 3. Ephes. 4. 1. Peter 1. Acts. 8. Rom. 10. Iohn 10. Mat. 28. No man boūd to poperie by Baptisme Mat. 23. Iohn 10. Ephe. 4. Iames. 4. Esa. 55. Apolog. Cap. 1. sect 2. Athanas. ad solitariam vitā agentes Hilar. ad Constantium Augustum How some haue mislyked forcing to religion Grego Episto lib. 2. Cap. 91. August Epist. 48. August ibidē What we teach of forcing to religion August epist. 127. Idem contra Cresconium lib. 3. Cap. 50. Idem contra literas Petilia lib. 2. cap. 86. Chry. in Matth. homil 47. Codicis lib. 1. tit 5. de haereticis Manicheis Idem leg Arriani August de haeresibus haere 46. Saint Austen defendeth the same August Epist. 48. Idem Epist. 50. The Donatists would haue none compelled to faith Ibidem Idem contra 2. Gaudentij Episto Lib. 2. cap. 17. Idem contra literas Petiliani lib. 2. Cap. 83. 2. Cor. 34. Iosiah commended for compelling Israel to serue God Apolog. cap. 1. sect 3. Socrat. li. 2. ca. 18. li. 4. ca. 12.16 Niceph. li. 11. ca. 49.50 Lib. 5. de Basil. trad Two religions in one Realm 1. King 18. Psal. 18. Esa. 48. Deut. 10. Matth. 4. Psal. 31. Iohn 14. Iohn 8. Vincentius Lirinens aduersus haereses Heresie is an inward idolatrie August de vera religione Cap. 38. Matt. 6. Apolog. Cap. 1. sect 7. We may not imitate examples except they be good No newes to see diuers religions in diuers states Saracens Arians vnfit examples for Christians Psal. 16. Dauids zeale Salomons doubling with God Christian Princes could suffer no heresie to be publikely professed Eusebi de vita Constant. lib. 3. Cap. 63. Socrat. lib. 5. Cap. 2. Codicis 1. tit 5. lege omnes Ibidem leg Cuncti Ibidem leg Ariani No more would the Arians Four stories wrested by the Ies. Socr. lib. 2. Cap. 18. Socra li. 4. cap. 16. Niceph. li. 11. cap. 49. Idem lib. 11. cap. 50. Lib. epistolarū 5. oratione contra Auxentiū S. Ambrose chooseth rather to yeeld his life than one of his Churches to the Arrian seruice Athanasius Ambrose were Catholikes and therefore Papists be not Apol. Cap. 1. Sect. 4. Cyprian Epist. 5. Niceph. lib. 9. cap. 23. The wise demaundes of the Iesuites A few Friers thinke themselues sufficient hostages for a Prince The bashfulnesse of Papistes Priuate permission of error vnlawfull as well as publike Rom. 1. 1. Sam. 2. Iohn Epist. 2. Ambros. lib. 5. Epist. 30. God alloweth no conniuēce The Apostl◠had priuate places but not priuate Masses Cypr. lib. 1. Epist. 2. The cup of the Lords table then thought needfull for Martyrs which the Ies. now barre the people from Niceph. lib. 9. cap. 23. 1. Corinth 10. Matt. 26. 1. Cor. 11. The Popish mercy The auncient penalties of heresie and schisme Codic lib. 1. tit 5. § Manicheos Ibidem § cūcti August Aug. Epist. 48. S. Austen allowed commended those penalties Our penalties far gentler thā those Apol. Cap. 1. Sect. 5. Iames. 1. Rom. 1. 2. Tim. 3. Rom. 15. The Iesuites would force but not be forced to religion Examining the oth respected to the fourth chapt Manie learned men of their side as wel as ours haue both taken and defended the oth Other natiōs both by words and deedes haue allowed and shewed that power of the Prince which the oth proposeth The Nobles of this Realm shamefullie slaundered by the Iesuits The oth exacted of Officers and proceeders The law barreth Papists from preferments and offices vntill they demonstrate their obedience by oth Is that to driue them to desperation The Iesuits buzzing in corners doth trouble their consciences and not the oth The Magistrates may compel two things that be lawfull though desperation doe ensue A thiefe may be hanged though he would pretēd desperation 2. Chronic. 34. Luc. 14. August epist. 50. 204. The Donatists were not spared though they offered themselues violence 1. Corinth 8. Galat. 2. Galat. 1. Luc. 17. Luc. 7. 1. Cor. 1. 1. Cor. 9. 2. Cor. 2. Offence taken not iustly giuen hurteth no man but the taker Their rūning to Rome Apolog. chap. 2. Se◠6. Apolog chap. ◠sect 1. A Iesuites oth is no great assurance they haue such cūning to make othes power to dispence with othes Apolog. Cap. 2. Sect. 2. Inter quaestiones ad tribunal indicis pertinentes quaest 2. quomodo respondendum in tribunali haereticorum They make it no treason to inuade the Land if the Pope so commaund vpon pretence of heresie and schisme Apolog. chap. 2. sect 2. Popes for these 600. yeares haue been nothing else but practisers Apolog. Cap. 2. Sect. 5. Hiero. Epist. 16 A fond florish for their going to Rome This is no flatterie Hiero. ad Princip epitaphium Marcell Rome was then safe frō Arians whiles Constans liued but not after when the Bishop of Rome was banished by the Arians Apol. Cap. 2. Sect. 5. Bede lib. 1. hist. Ang. The pretēces of their running to Rome Lib. 4. cap. 22. Eccle hist. The Iesuites go to Rome but not as the Fathers did They may not goe to Rome in these dayes though the Fathers did when the Bishop of Rome behaued himselfe as a duetifull subiect to the Emperour If this pride and tyrannie be vnlawfull resorting to him and partaking with him can not be lawfull Not one of their examples toucheth the Popes power ouer Princes but conuince rather the contrarie Counsell and comfort may be fet from anie place as well as frō Rome The Fathers resorted to the Bishop of Rome as to their brother and fellow seruant Bede Eccle hist. gentis Ang. lib. 1. Cap. 8. lib. 1. Cap. 17. This land recouered from Pelagianisme by two French Bishops Lib. 1. Cap. 17. Bede Eccle. hist. gentis Angl. lib. 1. Cap 4. Lucius Christened and Edelbert conuerted from Rome The occasions of Lucius sending vnto Rome They that came from Rome would not enter this land nor preach here without the Kings expresse licence Bede lib. 1. Cap. 25. Apolog. Cap. 2. What greater hostilitie than this could the Turk himself offer What ayde the fathers sought at Rome Cypri lib. 1. Epist. 1. li. 2. Epistola 1. Cypriā misliketh running to Rome Cypri lib. 1. Epist. 3. Cyprian lib. 1. Epistola 4. Cyprian encourageth the Spaniards to neglect the Popes letters How Iulius helped Athanasius He did al that he did as Patriark of the west with the help of the west Bishops The Bishop of Rome had his prerogatiue from the citie of Rome not from Peter He was cheef among them